 Thank you folks for joining us. Welcome to ThinkTact Hawaii and time for responsible change. And we have the honor and the pleasure of having with us in no particular order, retired judge and noted author and recent traveler, Sandra Sims from here in Honolulu. We have mediator arbitrator and also experienced world traveler, Tina Patterson, who's in Germantown, Maryland, not New Jersey. I won't make that mistake again. Louise Ng, one of our leading women's rights lawyers and also active in many, many areas of community service, as is Sandra. And David Larson from St. Paul, Minnesota at Mitchell Hamlin School of Law, professor there. And David actually was not just one of maybe the leader of the institution of online case resolution processes in New York and just has a recent article out on that, right? Yes. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, it's in the Cardozo Journal of Conflict Resolution and it just was published recently. Where our good friend Lila Love continues to preside, yes? Yes. Another of the country's truly great mediators and pioneer and path breaker in many respects. So just before we got started, Tina and Sandra and Louise, you were talking a little bit about human trafficking, which no community wants to acknowledge is a problem within it, especially in including Hawaii. But it is, right? Absolutely. Human trafficking is the third, according to the UN Office on Crime and Drugs. Human trafficking is the third most lucrative crime globally. And it doesn't matter whether you are in a small area, major city, a suburb, there's some element or tentacle of human trafficking present. It's interesting, as you said, that it made me think about one of the areas where organizations that support survivors of human trafficking usually find people being trafficked as at global events, the Olympics, World Cup, World Series games, exactly. So, yeah, Super Bowl. Super Bowl was another one. And I'm curious, given that we've got COVID restrictions, how much has that been limited or impacted as a result? Because we had unrestricted travel before and now with restricted travel, the movement of people, will that be noticed or could it be noticed? But again, when we had unrestricted travel, there were times when bodies of people, groups of people were being moved and just not seen. So I'm very curious. But thanks for bringing that up, Chuck. Yeah, it's global. So question, the inhumane abuses that human trafficking is particularly egregiously known for, that we're now seeing evidence of those as also not as pervasive, but far too pervasive in other areas of human activity that have been glorified, athletics, entertainment, education, others. So what does it take for human trafficking to be so profitable, so successful? One of the big factors that it's successful is that there are customers. And that is the tragedy in and of itself, that there are still a demand. And that demand, at least according to Jessica, you know, who's with, you know, who's we were talking earlier about, Hulunapua, which is an organization here on Oahu, that looks at providing services for survivors of, you know, the issue really is that of there being a demand. And just recently, I think in the legislature in the last couple of years, we've kind of helped, she's gotten involved with other organizations here as well, to kind of change some of our legislative language so that it focuses on the demand and using that demand rather than focusing on the, you know, the people who are involved in providing these sexual activities. Because so much of our law was focused on the so-called prostitution and focusing on that rather than on, you know, the Johns or the people who were demanding services. And so that dynamic has shifted somewhat in many places, even here in Hawaii, that shifted. And that's a big part of it, quite honestly. So that may raise another question. And at least it's been along with some groups too, and that's kind of where the focus remains is still demand. Do we have adequate law enforcement and social services and governmental resources and health care resources allocated? That was just what I was going to say. And one of the concerns I have right now is that, for example, in the Twin Cities, you know, law enforcement is not always the answer. You know, we have to kind of look beyond law enforcement to look at some of the causes and kind of what Sander is talking about is maybe the focus isn't on law enforcement. Maybe it's on the people that are paying for the service. And if they went away, the service would go away. But that being said, I think there is a minimal amount of law enforcement you need to have available. And at least in the Twin Cities, given all the social unrest we've had, for a number of reasons, a lot of people have left law enforcement and we're down significant number of officers in all different departments and capacities. And I guess my concern is that, you know, in many people's minds in the world of criminal law, you start ranking things and this isn't going to be at the top of the list. It's going to be some other things. So to the degree that resources are stretched right now, I guess my concern is that if it was slipping between the cracks before, it's going to be even a bigger problem now. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it is a problem here talking with Jessica Munoz, as you mentioned, Sandra, that we're still continuing to see the need to educate the judiciary and the prosecutor's office, although there are some very dedicated people in both of those branches. But what I've heard is that oftentimes, you know, the criminal justice system probably isn't the most efficient way to deal with the problem either. And the judiciary continues to need education on just the red flags and how to deal with victims or survivors of sex trafficking. And Louise, I think you've mentioned a good point. And when we talk about trafficking, there's several branches. I'm using the term branch, but there's several areas of trafficking. There's the sex trafficking that we're talking about, but there's also labor and child trafficking. And then within each country, there is the internal trafficking of youth in the United States. There's youth that are trafficked that never leave the United States. Many are runaways, but since we're talking about the sex trafficking, human trafficking aspect, there is the demand, but there's also across the board, the promise. It's the promise of a better life. It's the promise of more money for your community. It's the promise of more money for your family to send back. It's the promise of, well, you know what, I don't mind being a male order bride because it means that I can send money back to my home to my to my aunt to my grandma. I don't mind being a model. I saw this ad. I think it's great. I'll end up being a model and I can send money back to my my uncle. He's not feeling well, only to find out that it's not a model and you're not, you're not going to be a model. You may be a bride, but it's not going to be under the circumstances that you thought, or if you are indeed trafficked, the way of getting back, paying off your debt becomes insurmountable. And especially when we start talking about labor trafficking, people generally are not getting the wages that they're earning. I'll never forget there was a building in Oklahoma where there were, I think, 30 or 35 people who died in the building. They were labor trafficked and people saw them come in and out but never, never put the connection together that they were all in this one building. And because they didn't know how to get out and didn't have their documents, their documentation had been taken from them, they died. All the persons perished. But again, it's the promise. I think it's the promise and it's the demand, which is to David's point and to Sondra's point, I think trying to put the onus on law enforcement is overwhelming. Every officer is not going to be able to see the signs that when they go to a massage parlor that the woman is doing more than giving massages and she's doing it because she's been instructed to do so or she'll be beat. It takes special training. It's far more encompassing than I'm holding the speed radar and I see that you're 12 miles over the speed limit. I'm going to pull you over. Tina, you referred to the labor situation. That's an interesting point because for a lot of people that creates a dilemma. Why should somebody that's not a documented worker get advantage of the Fair Labor Standards Act or the Title VII? They're not citizens. They're not supposed to be here in the first place. So they shouldn't get that protection. Well, if they don't get that protection, you're creating an incredible incentive for bad actors to get people under these kinds of circumstances because they know they're not going to have to pay them. If they don't pay them, they're not going to have any kind of liability. So unless we have in many cases recognized that the labor production statutes should apply to undocumented workers for those reasons, it's not always the case. I think we have to be consistent about that because if we don't, we're given such a tremendous incentive to people to act in that manner. And that's exactly what's occurring too. When you look at the areas in the labor trafficking, that is exactly what's occurring. The people who are in a trap, there's no way for them to really get out of it because of those very things. There's that resistance to having laws applied. But again, it's like back to what Louise was saying. It's the education piece because the community has to understand that this stuff is taking place in your community, in front of you. It's not someplace else. It's here. I know one of the reasons that Jessica got involved in her work, and that's not to say she's the only person involved in it, but one of the ways that she became aware of the extent of trafficking was working in the emergency room. She's a nurse, and she saw these injuries coming in, and it's like, wait a minute, what's going on here? We're seeing people who were bringing in the survivors and under very suspicious circumstances, it's how she got involved in the first place. We're seeing that, and then we talk about the runaways, I think you mentioned that too, David, is my daughter's involved in a lot of non-profits and social service agencies, you talk about runaways. She always raised the question, we always want to treat them, they're not going to school, they're running away, they're running away, and she always says, mom, they're running away from something. You have to ask the question, what are you running away from? There is something, let's just not focus on the fact that you've left your home. Something is taking place, and we need to ask those questions as well, because that's where it comes from there as well. So yeah, it's a tough, it's a tough, we've got to really go home, but this is a really good question. You know, you just kind of add into what I said a minute ago. So on the one hand, you want to make sure that you want to have undocumented workers protected by the labor statutes, because otherwise it's set up. But in addition to that, so even if that's the case, even if we're saying that you can sue for unpaid wages or overtime under the Fair Labor Standards Act, you get the protection of the National Labor Protections Act, you can sue under Title VII, the Civil Rights Act in 1964, we still have the problem that, well, I'm afraid to do that, because if I do that, I'm going to be outed as an undocumented worker, I'm going to be shipped back. So I'm afraid to say anything, because I don't want to be shipped back. Repatriation is not always an option, and that has come up even with individuals who have been offered the UVs as part of the trafficking options, you know, working with law enforcement, and then the person is told, well, we'll repatriate you, and the person says, I can't go back. You don't understand. If I go back, it's death for me, or death for my family. I think, David, it is a conundrum, and how do we, as dispute resolvers, as conflict resolvers, how do we resolve this conflict? Can we resolve it? So are we back to another aspect of our severely broken systems that go all the way down to the core values themselves? Because even if the law enforcement had the resources and the expertise to find the traffickers and the victims and to rescue the victims, what you've just been talking about is those people are a long way from being anywhere near equipped to be able to enter society survivably, much less productively. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Which is why the facilities like what, and then the one I mentioned earlier, Journey Out, I think it's called Journey Out. It's in Southern California, in the Southern California area, and it was founded by a retired Los Angeles police detective, Stephanie Powell, to address just that. And she, because she met a lot of a lot of the girls she met during her work with the vice, with Los Angeles vice. And of course, she did quite a bit of writing and research on that and started a center. And you, it's again, back to, like we've talked so much about so many of these issues that seem our global and immense in their impacts, but it just, it's oftentimes just really takes someone just deciding I'm going to do my part. I'm going to do the piece that I can in order to address it without necessarily, you can't, you're not going to solve all of it, but you're going to, you're going to address that piece in your community. You're going to address that person in your community. You're going to make a difference in that place. And it's going to, I mean, at least to me, it's my, my strong sense that those are the kinds of things that need to take place in all that, and they are taking place in many of our communities that someone just steps up and says, this is what I can do. And this is what I do. And this is how I make the impact. And then, you know, you make that, you make that, you make that decision and you move forward. What I learned to from Ho'olana Pua that I thought was very impactful is that oftentimes we think of trafficking as being, you know, folks being brought into our community, people that we don't know. And the fact is that our young girls and youth, the boys and girls are susceptible to being groomed and lured into this thinking that, as you said, you know, they're getting a better job or a better life when that doesn't actually happen. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, that's exactly it. And we have to really keep, you know, educating and helping people to understand that that's what's taking place. And that's, and that they're really, they're very vulnerable. And we need to understand that. So when someone, you know, you keep seeing this person who's not going to school and running away, you need to find out why, you know. You know, it's interesting for a brief period of time, not that long ago, I was seeing a lot of public service announcements and a lot of information about how you identify, you know, the signs to look for. Yes. But I haven't seen any of those for quite a while. They've kind of disappeared. I'm not sure why that is. I don't know. Again, I've talked before about that hierarchy of concerns. And I don't know if now that's slipped down the last list so far that nobody's any time on it. But I think for a while, we were doing a much better job of bringing people's attention to the problem of kind of enlisting to everybody to say, you know, when you're on a plane, you know, when you're in public transportation, when you're in an airport, there are behavioral signs that indicate maybe something is wrong here and be attentive to them. And I thought that was very positive. But again, I've not seen those kind of messages recently. I've seen it very community specific. For instance, at the Seattle Tacoma Airport, where I just was, there are signs up. I've only seen it on maybe one or two airlines. Alaska, I know, has signs like that. But it's not, you're right, it's not widespread. And I think it's, you know, really needing to educate us on what red flags to look at. I think I've seen some, I agree, I don't see it as much, but I, you will often see them in the, in restrooms, particularly in, you know, clubs and places like that. You'll see signs in the restrooms. I saw them in the restrooms at the airport as well. Another one that's, when you talk about community specific, Julie Aurego, who's also with Seroftimus here in Honolulu, but she's also a manager of one of our, you know, major hotels and very active with women in the tourist industry. And she worked to develop the handbook for hotel employees. Things to pay attention to, you know, just, you know, to detect if there's, you know, trafficking taking place, things to look out for. And it was distributed to, and actually it was a training. She had training done through the women in tourism to most of the hotels to provide those kinds of services. And I think there is a, I think she said there is a handbook out that's, you know, published through that, that agency specifically directed, you know, to tourists. And there's some things to pay attention there as well, you know. Well, you know, I'm just thinking out loud, you know, as we're moving this period where the eviction moratoriums are nearing and people are being evicted from their homes, it seems now that, that vulnerable population is just going to be increasing. Yeah. That, you know, once people are going out on the street, they don't know where they're living, man, they are, they become prime targets for being. Absolutely. Absolutely. And survival instinct kicks in for everyone. You will do what you need to do to survive, or if it's a, if it's a parent or an adult with a child, they'll do what they need to do for the survival of that child. That gives me chills, David, thinking about that. I'm not sure what's happening with that. Yeah. So if the choice is between taking what a trafficking circumstance offers or being on your own on the street. Yeah, the fear is they take the offer. Not a good choice for, yeah. You know, as we think about extending the moratoriums, you know, that should be part of the conversation. It's like, look, it's, yes, we recognize that's going to result in homelessness, but let's, let's take that a little further. What does that mean? You know, what other social problems are we going to create that we may have to address? And is the expense and difficulty of doing that really less than the cost of extending the moratorium? And I think that's probably a discussion we need to have. You know, David, when you said that it made me think about the other aspect is in the United States for many, school is starting in less than 45 days. And if, as these moratoriums lift and people are evicted, the number of children without a home, but still wanting to go to school increases and basic, basic needs become an issue. I know some cities have instituted putting washing machines and dryers. No questions asked. The kids can go and wash their clothes because the children weren't coming to school because they didn't want to wear dirty clothes and other children were making fun of them, but and providing meals. I think that's one of the consequences as well that we need to think about. With the increase in evictions, what happens to the children? It's not just a matter of, and I know communities have been doing this, providing meals or a backpack with meals for the weekend. It's now you need, we need three meals a day and that child needs to be able to get their clothes cleaned or at least have a place where they can go and wash without feeling embarrassed, without having to explain the circumstances, but still be able to be in the classroom and feel safe in the classroom. Yeah, that just breaks my heart. It really does. When we recognize a reality of having to put washing machines in schools, so kids aren't ashamed of wearing dirty clothes to class. And then we're seeing people pay a million dollars to take a joy ride into the stratosphere. It's like, wow, that is that is just that's brutal. That is what was that you called it hierarchy of concern. I think I think that's a perfect example. Yeah. Yeah, schools are opening public schools are opening here. Now this and those very issues Tina are having to be addressed by our public schools now as the kids start to return. It's, yeah, these are tough questions. It seems to me the pandemic and it kind of goes back to how it's really highlighted these issues of what are our community values and what are the injustices and how can we make them better. And part of it goes back to the fact that kids often have very low self-esteem as well, which makes them victims of all of the trafficking and the alluring and the problems that we're seeing now with injustice. Yeah. And it is a big part of it because, yeah, they don't they haven't developed a sense of themselves as, you know, valuable and important and secure and because you're working through all of that now. And then you have this it's it's really really it's it's really going to be challenging for our teachers. And yeah, David, I'm curious. I'm sorry, go ahead, Sandra. No, I was just going to in the last three minutes. I think the hard choices and core values that Chuck had started talking about too was just the recent news about our, you know, Simone Biles and, you know, the sort of focus on well-being over, you know, just pushing yourself to hardship. And I think well-being is also at the core of what we're talking about for schools and, you know, trafficking, preventing trafficking and the like. And interesting piece on public radio about how this whole focus is so different from what the sport of gymnastics used to be, which is like the power through in the matter what. Yes, I heard that piece. It was quite powerful. Exactly. You know, I think that whole that whole ethos of power and through no matter what, it's also partially responsible for all the sexual abuse cases. That's like, you know, you just whenever it's happening, you know, you just push forward. I mean, when you look at the numbers that that physician abused, it's unbelievable. Hundreds? It's insane. How could it go that far? And, you know, it's a culture that, you know, you just got to bear down. You got to take it. You don't complain. So it's welcome that people are beginning to feel freer, that they can be more honest about what's happening in their lives. And maybe that's what in our last minute brings us back full circle, that those hard choices that are at the core of self-care are directly connected to the people who are least able to provide that self-care. We know that Simone Biles remained as long as she did, because she was the last of the sexually abused gymnasts on the team as a model, as an example, as a source of strength for others. And so to see one of her teammates be able to step up and get the gold yesterday, maybe there's some little element of hope in there. But the core values connect our self-care to the care for those who aren't able to provide their own. Maybe that's our lesson. I will say St. Paul is celebrating as a, Estuni Lee has taken the golden yes, yes, a wonderful story because that that too, that too, yes, there came a lot of challenges. You know, they're getting kind of covered now and some of the human interest stories. But, you know, very modest background and really has a determined young woman did a fantastic job. Yes, it's very inspiring. And maybe that's another sign of hope is that this generation, and she's a part of that Simone as well, of more assertive young people who can, you know, articulate these concerns and we're more willing to listen now, whereas before we may not have in years past maybe not paid attention, but I think we're paying attention and they're bringing, they're bringing these issues to the forefront and speaking up, speaking out. And it's pretty courageous on their part to do so. And we have to listen. And I think we are, we're doing better. There's still things we need to do, but we're doing doing doing much better, particularly when it comes to addressing these, you know, real mental health issues and concerns, the pressures that we put on the young people to do all these things and then expect that they just do it and we don't, you know, it's. Thank you all for bringing us around to end on a note of hope and on a note of full hearted support for those who stand up for it, even under the most difficult of circumstances who have been victims themselves. Thank you all. See you all in two weeks. Come back and rejoin us. Tina, Sandra, Louise, David, thanks so much for your insights and your heart and your hope. See you. Thank you.