 Hi everyone. Again, welcome. Thank you for joining us for our CouldPink Defund the Pentagon webinar. We'll be talking today about a recent article that was published about transitioning from arms to renewables, and we'll be talking with investigative journalist Taylor Barnes, who is based in the South. So very excited to see some people here today from the South and all over the country it looks like. If you haven't already, you can go ahead and introduce yourself in the chat box and give us your name, where you're zooming in from, and if you're associated with an organization, that would be great to see what you're doing in your own communities as well. Looks like we have people here who are in peace organizations, climate activists, so very excited. All right. Well, welcome everyone again to the CouldPink Defund the Pentagon webinar titled From Arms to Renewables. I'm really excited to see people joining us from around the country, and so I think we can go ahead and get started now. I'm going to stop sharing my screen and really excited to see folks here in the chat. If you haven't already, please go ahead and introduce yourself, your name, where you're zooming in from, your organization, and that sort of thing, and we'd love just to see how many different people are here from different movements in different parts of the country. So again, this is the third webinar in the CouldPink Defund the Pentagon webinar series, and this is titled From Arms to Renewables, a conversation with Atlanta-based investigative journalist Taylor Barnes. I'm really excited to see so many people here. My name is Carly Town. I'm the co-director of CouldPink and focus primarily on our Divest from the War Machine campaign and Defund the Pentagon campaigns. So our Divest from the War Machine campaign works to divest our schools, our cities, our politicians, and other financial institutions from the war machine and at the federal level to defund the Pentagon. The Divest from the War Machine campaign operates under a very simple premise. If we're going to end war, we need to stop allowing companies to profit from going to war. So one key aspect of our campaign involves understanding how war profiteers, including companies that produce weapons of war, exerts so much influence over our politicians. To provide just a little bit of context, in 2021, the Pentagon budget is going to be $741 billion, which means we'll spend over a million dollars a minute on the Pentagon budget. Half of that budget will go directly to private defense contractors, including weapons companies like Raytheon, Northrop Grumman, Boeing, etc. And those private defense contractors donate to our politicians in order to ensure that larger and larger Pentagon budgets are passed every year. And importantly, weapons manufacturers very strategically place manufacturing plants in congressional districts around the country. So the war machine operates very cyclically in this way, and our job is to figure out how to halt this really outrageous process. So on that note, today I'm really excited to get a chance to talk more about some really important topics that we really have to grapple with within the anti-war movement. If we're really going to take on these weapons companies, we really have to talk about the role of workers and the labor movement in the anti-war movement and how our manufacturing and production priorities have to take into account the realities of climate change. So that's why I'm really excited to introduce our guest today, Taylor Barnes. Taylor Barnes is a multilingual Atlanta-based investigative journalist who covers militarism, the defense industry, and foreign affairs. Her work has appeared in The Intercept, in These Times, Sutherley, Scallowag Magazine, Public Radio International, USA Today, and The New York Times. So welcome, Taylor. Really excited to have you here with us. Thank you very much. Thank you. And just really quickly before we get started, I just wanted to address some important information just for the audience as well. So Taylor and I will be in conversation for the first part of our webinar. And at the end, we'll have about five to 10 minutes for Q&A. So if you're joining us on Zoom, you can type any questions you have in the chat box throughout our conversation, and we'll have a chance at the end to answer some of those questions. You can also use the Q&A function on Zoom. Either way works. If you're joining us on YouTube, you can also type questions in the chat box there. We'll make sure to check both. So without further ado, welcome again, Taylor. And we can go and get started. So first, Taylor, a little background on you and your reporting. Can you tell us a little more about yourself and your reporting? How did you start reporting about the defense industry and militarism, foreign affairs? Yeah. So, first of all, I'm just so excited to see all the people who are logging in and where they're from. And I saw several people in the South, which makes me very excited. So my background is that I spent most of my, the beginning of my journalism career living abroad, mostly in Brazil. And it was kind of a, it was really influential for me to see how much of the world sees the U.S. and living abroad and getting asked about things like the Iraq war and the war in Afghanistan and thinking, wow, sometimes you hear more about this when you're abroad than when you are at home. So when I came back to the U.S. in 2017, I was really thinking a lot about how to cover foreign affairs, cover conflict. And I was really honing in on the influence of the defense industry and of war profiteering. And I wanted to understand that better. And of course, no one reporter can report on the entire Pentagon. This is an agency with a budget of 740 billion. And I thought what was sort of lacking in Pentagon coverage is getting it outside of D.C. Understanding these communities across the country that are tied up in this. And also, given, like I said, that no one reporter could take all that on. I think sort of slicing this up into geography also helps us to understand a little bit more how these forces work. So it's just kind of my way of getting into understanding some of the forces that perpetuate war and perpetuate a Pentagon budget that's so big that it's not just the largest in the world, but largest in the next top 10 spenders combined, which I just find so shocking to think about because we're told these countries are adversaries and they're catching up to us but are spending as far ahead of them. Yeah, exactly. And I think your point about the fact that no one reporter could report on the entire Pentagon budget. I mean, really at the end of the day, most Congress people don't even know what that's spent on, right? And the Pentagon has never passed an independent audit. So those are all really good points. So thank you for that. And you talk a little bit about your work and you live in the South. Do you want to say a little bit more like why is it so important to expand and diversify our coverage of the military industrial complex beyond just Washington DC, which I think most is, right? Yeah. So this is something really important to me and that I really try to hammer on, which is I think of a sort of quote unquote democratizing the defense speed. And I think a lot of journalism needs to be democratized even outside of coverage of the defense industry, which is my area. But we have sort of a hyper concentration of our journalistic resources in DC, in a few media hub cities. Great work comes out of that. And I appreciate all that. And I read all of that. But I just think there are so many stories going under the radar that are flying under the radar. I think of myself reporting in a place like Huntsville. And I think this place needs so much scrutiny. It's not called the Pentagon of the South by accident. And I just think, yeah, we need that around the country in a much bigger way. And kind of what you were talking about earlier about how are these influences, such as, you know, defense contractors donating to local political campaigns. I think there's sort of a multitude of influences that happen at this sort of constituent level that we need to understand better. For example, in Huntsville, there's a very lavish new high school that's funded by Raytheon Norquett Grumman. It's a public high school. And it gives kids a very advanced education and cybersecurity. It's sort of a pipeline into the defense industry. And I think forces like that need to be understood to understand why this is so entrenched in the American landscape. And I think that can be done, you know, in quote unquote, defense communities across the country. But it's also in, you know, it's very well spread. I'm here in Atlanta. I could walk to Georgia Tech in just a few minutes from my house. And the Georgia Tech Research Corporation is the second largest defense corporation in the state or the second largest defense contractor, because it does so many DoD. Yeah, DoD research contracts. So I think there's sort of more, we need to open our eyes to the ways that this really isn't just a DC affair. This really is nationwide. Yes, I think that's so important, right? I mean, obviously, just touching on campaign contributions is just the tip of the iceberg, right? But yeah, that conversation about the kind of STEM, the science, technology, engineering and mathematics to kind of military industrial complex pipeline is really important. And I'd love to talk more about that as well. But so today, you know, we wanted to talk more about an excellent article that you have in Southerly Magazine. It's titled, From Arms to Renewables, How Workers in this Southern Military Industrial Hub Are Converting the Economy. And, you know, like I mentioned earlier, the article leads together like really important themes. I hope we can touch on today, including, you know, labor in the anti-war movement, climate change, converting the economy. So, you know, first, the article focuses on Huntsville, Alabama, which is dubbed the Pentagon of the South. So, can you talk more about Huntsville and why is it called that? And, you know, what's significant about that designation? So I started reporting on Huntsville after I had a conversation a while ago with the Veterans for Peace Organizer here in Georgia. And I would just kind of ask them, is there different activities in the South and, you know, what were some of the important places? And he's ticking them off. And then he said, oh, yes. And then I went to, you know, this conference and protest in the Pentagon of the South. And I said, wait, what, where is that? I want to know about that. And he told me about Huntsville. He told me about his history, why it's so prominent. And then I did sort of what the journalists would do. And I went to USASpending.gov. And I ran a spending profile on Huntsville. And I thought, my goodness, he wasn't joking. This place receives a ton of money. And the congressional district is Mo Brooks District, and someone who is, you know, routinely decrying socialism on his social media, but actually is, you know, one of the congressional districts most awash in government money. And so it's pretty impressive. So that's sort of what spurred my, spurred my original reporting. And I got it off the ground by going to a union meeting early on in my reporting and making some really neat contacts there. That's really, that's really interesting to hear. And yeah, you know, I mean, I think when it comes to Pentagon spending, right, like with like over half of the money that we spend on the Pentagon goes directly to private companies. So that's really important to know. Okay, so the article begins with a story about a mechanical engineer named Robert Yoast. Can you tell us more about him, his career trajectory? Because I think this is a really important part of the story. Definitely. So I heard of Yoast from several different people. He is, you know, he has a following and he's known around him. And people are quite proud of him that know his story. And he had worked across a variety of sectors, including the defense sector. He worked on fighter jets. He worked on cruise missiles. He worked in oil and gas. And eventually ended up in the logistics sector. And then in 2011, when Alabama had a major outbreak of tornadoes that killed I believe about 200 people, it caused a blackout in Huntsville, which you know, of course, would be terrible for any place, but this is a major industrial hub. And it caused a blackout because of the transmission lines to the nuclear plant run by the Tennessee Valley Authority that Huntsville relies on. We're all torn up in the tornadoes and littered back on the ground. And I had people telling me that, you know, they were out of power for a week, a week and a half. People were barbecuing all their food because they're afraid it was going to go bad. And so yeah, during that blackout, Yoast was sitting in his house. And he's sort of known for being this very creative and tinkering engineer. Some guy wandered by his house and asked him if he had any valves on hand. And he said, sure, of course I do. My garage is full of random spare parts that I tinker with. So anyhow, his wife looked at this pedestal fan, like the kind that you would just use, you know, in your home to keep you cool with its blades turning in the wind and said to him, why can't you get power out of that? And he started thinking about his background in, you know, jet engine technology and how that could be transformed to wind energy. And imagine this way to make, you know, a very tiny essentially wind turbine, one that's about the size of a shoebox. And they're all stacked together. And I sort of launched his new company called American Wind, would be transitioned to that, yeah, that understanding of a jet engine into a wind engine or wind turbine. Fantastic. Well, that's I mean, yeah, I'm people, I said, people should definitely go and read the story. But I'm also wondering, that's obviously a really good example, right? But are other workers also following Robert's footsteps in transitioning from weapons manufacturing? What I think it's sort of important to emphasize in, you know, is that, yes, and that's happening in Huntsville, and it's all the more extraordinary given how much the deck is stacked in favor of the defense industry. I mean, literally pumping billions of dollars into, you know, a relatively small town, which is Huntsville every given year. And so the fact that nonetheless, workers are sort of in their individual ways transitioning to green energy, green technology, I think is really remarkable. And for example, Robert's company is a small company, but it's stacked with people whose backgrounds are in the defense industry. One person who was a project manager for Raytheon, another person who worked in the Army Corps of Engineers. And outside of that, I talk about the University of Alabama in Huntsville, which is a major engineering university, where literally more than one in five graduates will go into the defense industry. I got data from the school showing that there's really a pipeline. It literally sits next to sort of the corporate park where all of the defense contractors are located. You can just walk from one to the other. And the pipeline is so strong. But nonetheless, it's got its own sort of a little green movement that is being vigorous and getting popular. And one thing that really stuck out to me in this article is that I learned when I was reporting this is that of all people to call on Huntsville to transition to the green economy is a person with a very, very famous name locally who is the daughter of Warner Von Braun. And Warner Von Braun for people who may not remember or people who are younger may not have known that name. It's famous in the U.S. for having developed the rocket technology that sent man to the moon. However, as plenty of people on this webinar will know, space technology is very deeply intertwined with military and specifically missile technology. And so before that, he was a filmmaker in Nazi Germany for Hitler and was brought over to the U.S. in an operation paperclip that brought over German weapons makers when the U.S. thought it was competing with the Soviet Union to get those talented weapons makers. And so anyhow, his name looms very large in Huntsville. I believe the convention center is named after him. But of all things, his daughter is an on fire environmentalist and she comes back to the town to preach transitioning to a greener economy. Her specialty is hazardous waste cleanup of industrial sites. And it's really fascinating. So it was, I included in the piece how she spoke at all things at a green via New Deal town hall. So she has a wide influence there. I mean, yeah, but I think both of those examples are really significant for a lot of reasons, right? Like you, like you said, obviously, this is taking place in, you know, the Pentagon of the South. But also, right, I think a lot of times in both the environmental and, you know, and also the anti-war movement, right? I mean, the demands also have to come from workers themselves, right? We can't, you know, just be telling people that they have to transition and has to come from the workers who are doing that. And, you know, it kind of conjures in my mind, right? I mean, just the very like cringy and horrible position that some politicians have is like, well, you know, we can't have coal miners anymore and it's killing our planet. Let's teach them to code, right? So like, it's not that situation. It's that actually their skills are really transferable and it's coming from, from their own needs in their community. So I think that's a really important example, right? Yeah, fantastic. And so, you know, I think we're kind of talking about this now, but let's kind of get more into it. You know, in your article, you cite a journal article from 1988, which is titled, Conversion of Millionaire Production to Socially Useful Purposes. So obviously, and as I'm sure people know, right? This is a concept that's been around for a while, economic conversion. You know, in our work at Code Pink to divest from the war machine, we talk all the time about the need to eliminate companies that profit from making weapons and perpetuating war and US imperialism around the world. So can you tell us more about this concept of economic conversion as a principle? Yeah. So, you know, economic conversion, which is an idea that, you know, has been around for decades and I, you know, was more prominent, I would say, sort of in the Cold War era, and is the idea that, you know, wars end and that, you know, you must transition the workforce to something the better. It's the, you know, basic swords and plowshares idea. And it's also very much a pro-labor idea. It says, you know, we don't abandon people who have, you know, they had their livelihoods tied up in this, that would not be, you know, would not be just and it wouldn't be effective in the end of the day. And what I found interesting in working on this piece is to find out that environmentalists have a very parallel idea called just transition, which means that, you know, when we transition to a post fossil fuel economy, that doesn't mean abandoning, you know, communities that have their livelihoods tied up in this. It means, you know, harnessing them and repurposing them. And it's, you know, I see this very clearly in the defense industry. It's not just a question of the justice in it of repurposing skills. It's harnessing those skills. You know, someone like Robert, who's, you know, profiled on my piece, he has decades of experience in engineering. That's why he came up with this great product. And so I think there's kind of an affirmative message that can be there. It's not just that, okay, we need to find a solution. It's that you're part of the solution. Right. I think that's, that's really important to, to emphasize to read like the, the, the skills that these workers have or could actually be harnessed for good. And we're really going to need them. So yeah, I think that's really important, important to emphasize. I mean, you know, I just want to dig a little bit more into this too. You know, what about this story where you reported on from Huntsville, Alabama tells us about, you know, both of this need to eliminate these products and companies like Northrop Grumman and Raytheon who profit from, from bombing other countries. And, you know, work to build workers rights and the labor movement in the United States. Like how can we both do both simultaneously? Yeah, I think there's sort of a conundrum sort of reckon with, which is that, you know, indeed, these, you know, these companies that are producing, you know, weaponry are both harmful. And of course, a big drain on public money at the same time, not only are livelihoods tied up in them, but they're often good ones. And I cited figures in my piece about, you know, it's not surprising, you know, when a company like Lockheed Martin is the biggest corporate recipient of taxpayer money, then it's not surprising they compare their workers better than their civilian counterparts. And so I think that needs to really be sort of untangled and reckoned with. Also, the defense industry has a fair amount, I don't, not exaggerated, but a fair amount of unionization. And that's something that, you know, many workers will envy in today's economy. And so I've spoken with workers who are in the defense industry who say, Hey, I've taken this job because it was a union job. And that's totally reasonable and totally, you know, understandable that people need that sort of security that comes with that. I think one thing I sort of thought about, you know, with these big picture issues is I sort of think there, you know, can be a bit of a less of a distinction of, you know, why did that worker take that job? Why did that worker take in that industry? These are, you know, in that industry, these are very society wide decisions and priorities. And I think we're all sort of implicated in this, you know, whether or not we're the ones who are actually employed by Lockheed Martin right now. And I'm thinking of, there's a nice book from the anthropologist Catherine Lutz about Fort Bragg here in the South, which is the largest head military base, the United States largest military base. And she writes, you know, about the very dependent economy surrounding Fort Bragg. And, you know, how it really blurs the line between the distinction between civilian and non-civilians, civilian and military, when, you know, you know, the economy around Fort Bragg, you may be involved people who are at restaurants serving to soldiers who therefore depend on them. And she says something in the book like, you know, we all need to consider if we're all military dependents in an economy as militarized as that of the US. And I think that's a more useful way to start tackling these questions. Yeah, I think that's really important. I mean, it is, it is a contradiction we have to, we have to deal with, right. And, and I think also we've talked about this before, right. I mean, at the end of the day, Raytheon, Northrop Grumman, companies like this, they're multinational corporations. And their, their priority is not workers as profit. And in this case, they're profiting from extending conflicts around the world. And so I think that's also something, right, we have to talk about as well. And you're right. Making sure that that's embedded within the larger labor movement is really important. So, you know, on that note, right, transitioning from a war-based economy in certain regions of the United States is a reality that the Pentagon knows we have to deal with. In your piece, you talk about the fact that the Pentagon has an office of economic adjustment. And you cite in some examples of conversion. Could you tell us about that office and what, what that means in those examples? So, this office, a researcher named Miriam Pemberton once called this office, quote, unquote, the little agency that could have tamed the Pentagon. And it exists to, amongst other things, to advise communities that are facing what the government calls, quote, downsizing, which means, you know, defense industry leaving town or a base closing, something that would negatively impact the local economy in these, you know, military towns. And I think the, you know, it has a lot of potential. It exists. It exists with that purpose. It's not, you know, I asked them, you know, can you give me any examples of, you know, a town you've advised has been able to switch to the green economy. And they weren't able to give me any. And they sort of punted the ball and said, you know, we will, when we advise these towns, we have to look at what the federal government is incentivizing, where else there may be tax breaks, et cetera. So they're kind of saying it's not exactly on the Pentagon itself too. It is on the Pentagon itself to, you know, advise these towns, but at the end of the day, they don't have the power to come up with the funds to, you know, create a new economy for these towns. That said, there's some really interesting examples, you know, the US closed a lot of its military bases post-Cold War. And, you know, plenty of those have had, you know, prosperous afterlives. As far as green examples of that, I cited the example of the closure of San Francisco's Presidio, which is now a day of public park. I believe it has housing here in Atlanta. There's an example that's not green, but it is a thriving civilian example, which was the closure of Fort McPherson, which nowadays is a booming mega studio owned by director Tyler Perry. So there are examples to look for. And there are, I think these examples need to be understood as conversion stories and not as anomalies. Yeah, I think that's really important, right? Just kind of regional or city level conversion stories. And I think that response from the Pentagon is really telling in a lot of ways, right? At the end of the day, you know, we've said this before, but half of the Pentagon budget will go directly to private companies, right? And so, you know, at the federal level and kind of a broader, you know, country-wide level, many people point to the ability of Pentagon spending to create jobs, right? And we've talked about that, right? But, you know, is it true that military spending is the best way to create jobs, right? Because the argument is, well, if you don't spend on this, you won't create those jobs, but there's another important question to ask, which is, is that the best way we can create jobs, right? Yeah. There's really great research from an economist named Heidi Peltier about this issue. And she says that, you know, military spending is one of the poorest ways to create jobs. And it's kind of common sense. She says, you know, one of the reasons is that it's capital intensive. Therefore, less money goes straight to salaries. And, you know, sectors like education, healthcare, and, you know, renewable energy will create more jobs with the same amount of investment. And sort of an interesting story about this reason that occurs and, you know, that data, I sent my story when it came out to defense industry union leaders in Huntsville who run sort of a pro-union talk radio show in Alabama. And they were really taken with that data. And they said, hey, we need to tell our members this, you know, this is important information. You know, we're in the defense industry now and, you know, we need to look out for our fellow workers' jobs. But like if there could be even more and better jobs, like this is good for us. And on that same talk radio show, one of the, you know, one of the labor leaders said something along the lines of, you know, our livelihood shouldn't depend on harming the working class abroad. So it was pretty profound. That is really, really wonderful to hear. I mean, you know, kind of it makes me, it reminds me of January 25th. We had a, we were part of an international day or global day for our action to say no to the Juan Yemen. And one of the actions that took place that I think was probably one of the most powerful was in Canada, workers, unionized workers, were working to stop shipments that would help create the weapons that are going, right? And so you're right. I mean, workers understanding that and kind of consciousness raising within the workers' movement about what the products that they're actually making is important. But like you said, I think it's also really important that we stop having this conversation like it's a zero sum game. It's either Pentagon spending and jobs or none. It's rather, what could we actually, right? What could we actually accomplish if we spent this on things like education, green energy, that kind of thing? So that's really really important. Yeah. And then, you know, kind of on that note, right? I think another really important part of this story and also about what we talk about in the anti-war movement includes the role of climate change in determining our budget priorities. So, you know, for one, I mean, I think I thought it was really interesting that your article begins by detailing the fact that a powerful tornado tore up part of the Tennessee Valley, Valley Authority's plan, right? The Tennessee Valley Authority, one of the New Deal's achievements, publicly owned utility with a unionized workforce. And, you know, at the same time, the Pentagon is the world's largest single consumer and emitter of greenhouse gases. So, you know, let's talk a little bit about this intersection. So in your article, you talk about Hernando Gonzalez, a PhD candidate at the University of Alabama, Huntsville, who worked at a lucrative job for an oil services company. So, can you tell us about the significance of his story? Yeah. His story is really interesting. He, you know, he graduated around the same time I did, or both the children of the Great Recession. And he was, you know, he really needed to find work. And he was an engineer. He was talented. And he found it with his oil services company. And he was very successful. He was, you know, being flown around different job sites. He, by the time he was, you know, just in his late 20s, he was managing people, having, you know, people answering to him. He was able to earn so well that he provided financial support to other family members. But he had this very transformative experience when he was once flying to a job site in the Amazon. And he describes, you know, how beautiful it was to be, you know, flying over these lush trees, you know, seeing the animal life, and then getting to where his job site was. And it looks like a desert because it's been so devastated. And he just decided, like, I cannot tell my children that I did this. And what I find really interesting is that he starts to go look around for alternatives. You know, and he takes to his engineering professors and colleagues, they're the ones who sent him toward Huntsville and say, you know, this is an engineering hub. I put this in my story. I mean, it's, it, you know, claims to have the highest concentration of engineers in the whole country, and the second highest concentration of STEM workers, which is, you know, kind of naturally flows from the fact that it's such a central defense hub. It also has a major post for the Army Corps of Engineers. So that's how he found his way to Huntsville, but he was determined to work on renewable energy. And he'd identified the problem of how to store renewable energy and has been working as a PhD student on battery storage. And, you know, he's very passionate about it. He jokes how, you know, Huntsville is such an odd place because you hear explosions frequently because they're testing rockets and such on the adjacent Army arsenal. But he also told me how, you know, when he tells his friends about his research, they get enthusiastic about it. One friend was very moved by Hurricane Maria and told him, like, look, I'd rather be working in your area, even though he was working in the defense industry. He wanted to do something to, you know, actually address these major threats that are, you know, harming people on a day-to-day basis. Yeah. I mean, I think that's really important, right? I mean, I think a lot of STEM, I don't think STEM graduates or people who go into those fields necessarily want to create weapons. But like you said, right? I mean, that's often the opportunity that they're given. And so being able to shift that is really important. And, you know, just one last thing to, you know, you mentioned that university graduates in Huntsville, it's one in five going to the defense industry. Is it unreasonable to say that they could be funneled into working to create renewable energy or other jobs, right? Like, we're not reproducing that same kind of narrative. Like, we'll just get coal miners to go learn how to code. I think what's interesting is, you know, both STEM students and professionals themselves and, you know, outsiders like, like the economist I mentioned, Heidi Peltier had been able to connect sort of, you know, that pipeline to the defense industry and the way it could be repurposed. Dr. Peltier talks about how the defense industry is basically parasitic to other industries that would draw on the same workforce. Because a mechanical engineer, you know, may be interested in very well in going into renewable energy, but Lockheed Martin pays better. Like there's just no getting around that because it receives so much government money. But the thing is, it's kind of like we have, you know, all the tools are there to change something. You know, this isn't a question of scarcity and is the money there? It's just how it's being spent. Exactly. I mean, again, back to that really cyclical nature, right? We spend so much on the money on budget, it goes into these private companies and that's why they can pay more. I think that's a really great place to end it, actually. I'm wondering, oh, really quickly, Elizabeth was saying, what's the name of the engineer you were just talking about? Okay, both. Well, I'll put it in the chat. Great. But yeah, Taylor, I wanted to ask, is there anything else you wanted to add? And do you want us to tell people how they can follow your work as well? Yeah. First, I just want to add that, you know, like I said in the beginning, I'm very interested in covering sort of the way the defense industry, militarism, a militarized economy manifests itself, you know, all across the country, but particularly here in the south, where I live, which, you know, I think is one of many big nodes of the, yeah, the military economy. Yeah. And I also kind of want to add, in case anyone here is sort of in media or in journalism, that I think taking a sort of what in journalism is called a solutions journalism lens, these stories is really important, you know, we can say what the problem is, we can, you know, point out, look how much money is going to this, you know, one agency and look how harmful these weapons are and look how, you know, we even order more, you know, F-35s and more weapons than even the Pentagon wants. We can point out all of that, but there's certain I think the solution needs to also be there. And I've been really impressed that when I get on the ground, these communities, you know, people are talking about that. And so I think that's a really important lens to take. Yeah, that's really beautiful. I think that's great, right? I mean, we can't just talk, we talked about it, we can't just talk about divesting from the war machine. We have to present also a little bit of alternative, right, a horizon to reach for. And, you know, we talk about the local peace economy as well. So that's wonderful. So we do have a couple of questions from the audience. So I'm going to turn over to that. So we have one from earlier. The question is, what's a sensible counter strategy to the war machine putting factories in every state in every district that hooks people and politicians on war cash? Do you have any idea like what's a counter move or how can we address that? Yeah. Yeah, this definitely gets at the issue of, you know, the defense industry having constituents and then reasonably, you know, not wanting to be put out of a job. And I sort of think, you know, I think there's a way to recognize that, you know, when the defense industry is employing people in, you know, a variety of parts of the country, and that's like, no, it's good. And it's good that, you know, there's jobs for people in, you know, small cities and, you know, I've been to some rural areas outside of Huntsville where, you know, the only person to work for really is Lockheed Martin. And so I think, you know, imagining a transition that, you know, still is indeed employing people in every district is pretty important. And that's sort of an important lens to take. And I really think sort of, you know, I think what's interesting about this moment, compared to perhaps other moments in the economic conversion movement, is that, you know, workers may be amenable to the idea of, you know, I could switch to another industry, but the money needs to be there, you know, it's, you know, you have to have a comparable project. And, you know, we actually have one in our hands with the Green New Deal, and, or with, you know, a Green Jobs program. So I really think this is kind of a unique moment where those two movements can come together, this ever-clining Pentagon budget, and, you know, wide recognition that it is a problem with actually another spending project that draws on the same labor force. So I think that really is the way to go at it. Yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't agree more. And, you know, also being able to transition from, you know, like, you know, U.S. imperialism to one where we actually focus on cooperation with other countries in the world to actually take on, you know, what is a real threat, which is climate change, right? So I think that's really, really important. And, okay, we have a couple more questions. So there's a solar company in Colorado. It's called Mama's Day Solar, very apt. That's worker-owned. Do you know how much renewable energy companies are unionized or worker-owned? Or do you have any sense of that? Yeah, I will say, I tried to look into this from my story and I was not able to find sort of either good data on that. All I can tell you is that anecdotally, the defense industry does have a fair amount of unionization. Not to say it's perfect, because it also does things like move from, you know, a unionized workforce to right to work states. I've been talking, for example, with some activist in North Carolina where that's happening right now. Raytheon is moving jobs from Connecticut to unionized workforce to North Carolina, which is a right to work state. That said, sort of defense jobs being federal jobs often are more secure and more protective ones, and therefore kind of are, you know, more, I suppose, fertile ground for unions and organizing. But I do think it's interesting, as I think there is a good amount of awareness in the, you know, green economy, in, you know, the renewable sector that workers' rights play a role. Another person in my piece named Natalie Klick, who was a young engineer who grew up in a town that was very defense heavy, goes to the University of Alabama, Huntsville, was a rare person pursuing renewable energy when many of her classmates went into defense. She was very on fire about this being not just, you know, a transition to, you know, a low carbon or a clean economy, but very much one for workers. And her whole PhD project is working on how to recycle solar panels. And part of the reason she's so passionate about it is because she imagines this is a great employment program. You know, rather than solar panels going to the landfill, there's going to be, you know, a skilled workforce needed all across the country to actually recycle these, you know, when they come into greater use. So I would be hopeful that hopefully the renewable sector is, you know, even more labor friendly and would have the conditions to be more labor friendly. Yeah, I think that's a good point. I mean, you know, your point about Raytheon is so true and really, really important. We need to remember that these are, again, multinational corporations. Their bottom line is profit. If they can move to a right to work state, if they can offshore jobs, they will, right? And so, yeah, transitioning and moving this funding to government jobs would be much better, right? Public sector work rather than work that's obviously for profit. Okay, great. We have one more question. Any books you would recommend on, you know, the Green New Deal and maybe this intersection between the Green New Deal and the Antower Movement or Green Over Military, as they put it. Yeah, I saw that question and was sort of, and, you know, I'm not sure I have one that would exactly fit that, you know, proposal. That said, I do like how this thing has come up in several books and that really look at sort of the effect of, you know, military industry on the ground, which, you know, in addition to, you know, pulling public resources away from, you know, spending on renewable energy, spending on a green transition on the local level, these are often very polluting sites, like a very high number of super fun sites are former military industrial sites, and, you know, leak jet fuel into the ground and all sorts of things. So my answer to this would be more a few of the books I've read that sort of look at individual military towns. The one I mentioned by Catherine Lutz on Fort Bragg, I absolutely loved and, you know, she'll talk a little bit about this. And I'm trying to remember the name of it, the names are skating me right now, but it's about Fort Bragg. It's called Homefront, that's what it is. There's a really interesting one about the Savannah River site, which is a nuclear site on the Georgia-South Carolina border that nowadays is a proposed site for making plutonium pits, which are the cores of nuclear weapons. It's massive, I believe it's something like 300 square miles. And there's a nice book about that site called Cold War Dixie by Kerry Fredrickson. And I definitely get into sort of the environmental side of it. There's another book I really like about the missile fields across the Great Plains that hold America's intercontinental ballistic missiles, which are used for, you know, would be used in nuclear attack on another country by the historian Gretchen Heathner, that again talks a lot about being both, I guess, you know, talks about the environmental side and also the tension between, you know, local landowners, farmers and, you know, people who've cultivated this land and who then, you know, in the Cold War found themselves living next to a missile silo, which amongst other things is, you know, basically a bullseye for, you know, a would-be adversary to target someday. So, yeah, I liked all of those. Wonderful. Those are really great recommendations. And we can also send them out to people, everyone who arts to feed to make sure they get that. And I mean, really, it sounds like you have to write a book, Taylor. We'll look forward to reading your book about that. So, thank you. Thank you so much for joining us today. I just, you know, I want to thank you again. I can't tell you how important this piece is and how much people have been talking about it in the anti-war movement. When I talked to them about it, they're very excited. So, you know, I really appreciate you having you on today and getting to have a conversation with you. So, thank you so much, Taylor. And also, thank you everyone for your great questions. As I said, we can follow up with everyone who RCT will send along an email to you. And then finally, you know, before we leave, I just wanted to invite everyone here to an event that we're hosting next Tuesday. I saw on the chat box somebody said, we need another congressional champion on this issue. And the good thing is we do have some. So, actually, they're going to be joining us. Could pink Congress next Tuesday. We're going to welcome Congressman Mark Pokan and Congresswoman Barbara Lee. They are the chairs of the new initiative to build the defense spending reduction caucus. And also interestingly, Mark Pokan is the chair of labor caucus in Congress. So, we're going to be talking to them about that on Tuesday. And I put the link to RCP in the chat, and we will send it out to everyone here. But on that note, that concludes the webinar. So, thank you so much, Taylor, for your time today. And thanks, everyone, for joining us. And we'll see you all on the online soon. Thank you.