 Great and we are live Imran, thank you so much for joining me. We're doing a series of podcasts for the dive-in festival and Imran Koreshi is kindly Agreed to speak to me, which is really cool Imran Congratulations on your your new role to your officially head of North America for Willis Towers watch and congratulations Thank you Lewis and thanks for inviting me on this podcast and I'm thrilled to be here Pleasure pleasure. So we spoke all fair about this a Week or so ago and it's just interesting to hear how An English guy grew up around Harrow ended up being in Chicago leading Willis North American division would love to hear how how that unfolded. Yeah Well, you know at a moment like this in any kind of pivotal moments in one's careers it always gives you an opportunity to look back and And reflect a little bit around your experiences and and also give thanks to those that have helped you along the way So I was born and raised in the UK. My parents were immigrants to the UK father was Born in Pakistan migrated to actually born in India migrated to Pakistan during the partition Made his way to Britain in the 60s met my mother who was also an immigrant from Trinidad in the West Indies And she made her way to the UK in the 60s. So That's why I've got this accent my my parents who Were seeking to make a go of it in the UK in London so I was born and raised in the UK Went to university there And ended up embarking upon an actuarial career But then in 1997 I had an opportunity To come out to the United States. I'd never been to the United States Our business in the US at the time. It was with another company had recently Won a number of clients but lost a number of people. So there's a bit of a gap around workload And we were at willis at the time. I was not I was at another company. Okay. So was that a pride company that? Brought me across in 1997 for supposedly one month So I arrived in Chicago on Memorial Day, which is in May In 1997 and never been to the US So, you know, I was struck at the time by just the enormity of everything the the buildings the portion sizes The the streets the cars everything just seemed to be significantly larger than what I'd experienced before and And then I was supposed to be there for one month But I ended up staying three months, which was the most I could stay without a visa came back to the UK To get a visa to arrive then back into the United States on Christmas Eve 1997 and so I I didn't know I was going to spend Probably the rest of my life in the US Or certainly have kids born in the US. I didn't know that at the time obviously and It's been It's been a really interesting journey Yeah, how did you find a growing up in Britain? So specifically kind of like racial equality and and your experiences Versus then moving to the US at that time. Yeah, it's it's really interesting If you've ever watched the movie blinded by the light it's about a a kid in Britain growing up to immigrant parents who is of South Asian descent And and the juxtaposition of of his interests in his life Which was related to more of a Western culture and his parents having more of that South Asian culture and that pivot point But also equally at the time where Britain was was actually more racially divided You see that time and time again when you have waves of immigrants that come into a country a tension between the inherent People that live there and the immigrants that are coming in and and Britain was exactly that and I remember my mother at the time And she instilled this in me constantly Which was you had to work twice as hard who was somebody use white to succeed And and that was instilled in me So it caused me to develop a strong work ethic But there were barriers to progression I I could see that not just from a racial dimension, but gender class age Many different dimensions and and so I I definitely noticed that in the UK When I came to the US in 97 I was actually struck by more of a at least a feeling of a meritocratic Um Culture a one in which there was seemed to be more of a correlation between hard work and results and career progression now I think it's changed a lot in the UK now and certainly when I go back it's definitely more of a A flatter society more of a meritocracy than when I left it But I certainly felt that when I came to the US there were just more opportunities to progress one's career Yeah, interesting. I was in 97 the year you were you were moving to the US I was in it was just started my A levels in Watford grammar and it was a very mixed school. So, you know, West Watford was a big Asian population Um, I'm Jewish a few Jews and it was interesting because there was There were like groups and people are quite tribal, you know, you kind of like stick to your Your group, um, everyone was very friendly There was of course, you know, I guess, I mean back then you'd call it banter Now you might call it something different But it was a really interesting moment in time Um, quite pivotal, you know, like a lot of you go through a lot of different experiences at that age But I think the one the one thing that the teachers always said was, you know, you've got to build your network You know, it's who you know And I think you're right and I think in kind of my dad's friend worked in insurance at the time and and he was He was talking to me about, you know, like you've got to know someone and you know My son's going to get in because and it was just all about all about the network And if you knew someone you got in Yeah And there were but you know, there were barriers Yeah, I I think they're I think networking is is critical and relationships are quite critical Um, but there there are barriers that are oftentimes unseen and and it's it's um As as a society and now as The way the focus on inclusion and diversity Many organizations are seeking to remove some of those previously unseen barriers The dive in festival upcoming a lot of the agenda is focused around that is how do we create a more inclusive workplace and society? But but yes, I mean certainly as as I've Progressed my career in in the u.s Um, one of the things that that I Found was while it was more of a meritocratic or Culture here There were barriers that were being experienced by other individuals such as african-american black latinx Other other groups and and I think what helped me frankly was my accent Um, I mean people people would see me in the in the u.s And they may assume and come up with assumptions, right? We all have stereotypes around people, but as soon as I started to speak Um, it it sort of threw them a little bit off around what those stereotypes were and so for me I think that's been an advantage, but I I'm very cognizant today Having done work particularly in the inclusion and diversity space that there are barriers that still exist for other people in In our society Yes, absolutely a lot of it's I think you know you have a story in your mind About someone or where someone's grown up or a country and for me It's a lot about a lot of it's about just changing the narrative changing the story You know being being open to you know, not everyone from this place is like that, right? And and and so I think it takes it takes time for that to To seep through Yeah, and you use the word story Stories are so powerful To change somebody's perception And and there's a lot of research that's being done in this and I remember encountering a professor Who's done a lot of work around? purpose and and has talked about how stories can Engage the brain neurologically in ways that other things other ways can't and and when you engage Using stories you can start to change behaviors. You can start to Impact your own purpose in a very meaningful way. So I I think that's such a critical part is telling our stories And getting people to see us differently Yeah, and also for me It's just being going to be open and interested in in listening to these stories because so much of our information comes from social media a WhatsApp group or you know an experience you might have had once years ago and And you know if you start to speak and engage and listen There's so you know so many amazing stories around by so many amazing people It might start to change the narrative in the head in your head, which is, you know, completely un You know un un bias or or un bias is not the right word, but um You know just that that that story that's that you've always thought to be true. Yeah um Yeah, look curiosity um and a desire to learn And understand You know if we if we each had that and we start from the basis of seeking first to understand before being understood Then yeah, I I'm convinced the world would be a better place Yeah, 100 percent 100 percent. I mean, I'm certainly guilty of this. I mean, I probably talk more than I listen But listen, this thing's great. You know asking questions Taking a real interest in in people and where they're at Everyone's human Absolutely You know, how did you how did you find as you mentioned earlier that there was it was a noticeable difference between the uk and the us when you when you get In what way in what way exactly how did you find? I I I remember um I remember distinctly money in the first three months that I arrived in Chicago I was invited to a client meeting And I had the opportunity to present to a senior individual at this client And if it had been six months or three months prior If I was in the uk that wouldn't have been the case and and partly again, it was either I'm not saying it was related to my race, but I think it was more related to age, frankly You know, I was this young Young individual, why would you put somebody young in front of a senior client and ask and give them a role? And and I I just remember that and then and then consistently over the next couple of years Being given more and more opportunities To do that kind of thing So, you know, I sort of struck by that that that in my mind just started to say, huh If I if I work hard Achieve good results. I'll be given more of those opportunities And it was just this very a very simple equation in my mind. What what was interesting was Um, I I then worked in in the u.s. For a number of years with that belief um a watershed really happened or 9 11 um because then You know, I'd felt as though The world had changed in so many different ways and for me being a person of color and being born a muslim um I felt That moment caused a difference in the way in which I was perceived and I felt it Felt it as starkly when I would get in and go to an airport and being randomly pulled from a line For for questioning. I remember one time I arrived from a flight from tokyo um back into chicago 1415 hour flight. I kind of remember and um Really tired and being pulled into a room for questioning For an hour and a half something like that And you know what I'd since discovered throughout all of these random checks and pulled pulled outlines was my name was similar to somebody on the no fly list so um, but it it was a just a stark um moment for me that Caused me to think well, you know, there is discrimination exists It's it isn't as simple as a straight line equation where hard work And and results equal progression And and it attuned me to to other other biases other Profiling that exists in in our country today in many other countries Yeah, how's it how's it develop because my perspective is i'm living in england um I have a business in america and friends and stuff, but you know, I see a lot of stuff on tv and you know I consume the media and it and it feels like the us has got worse over time Is that is that true? What's it like really been like? I I look I I don't think I actually think we've become more inclusive and diverse Over time and part of that is simply a function of the demographics, but in the year 2050 The q research has projected That we will become a majority minority country. So they're going to be more people of color Then they are not and that tipping point has started to happen already at lower age cohorts So if you look under 18s, there are more people of color than not and so that's causing All kinds of structural changes in the in in the country now. That's causing tension, but it's equally causing The need to be more inclusive and so whether that becomes from hiring people Employers have to be able to cast a broad and that it's it's a math problem You've got a high for you to hire talent You've got to appeal to all types of talent and then if you look at companies selling products In in in the united states, they've got to appeal to all consumers So that there is absolutely a shift And with any shift and you've seen it over different societies in different countries with shifts like that paradigm shifts structural shifts That leads to tension Yeah, and so we're going through that right now But but if we're grounded on certain principles And and if you look at the us the us is grounded and founded on a constitution which has Principles it's principally based and it allows us to anchor How we evolve as the society to those principles? And that's that's why I think we will get through this and we will be stronger and we are on a path of Of inclusion that isn't being turned around Yeah, they're very true very true. I'm interested in this is all it will say You know, there's always this Everyone's all everyone everyone always talks about, you know, bring your authentic self to work, you know, authenticity and it was interesting because you saw, you know, the It's in America. You've got two political parties very everyone's very tribal Um, and so do you think you know people really mean? Bring your authentic self to work or bring your authentic self to work as long as you believe what I believe It's it's a good look. It's a good question. There's no easy answers to that You're right. We we have become more politically polarized over the last few years than than anywhere um, I I still believe that One needs to bring their entirety of their self to work um, and And be be able to be who they are at work There there is there's another part to that another dimension to that within the context of the values of that organization and so For us as an organization respect is a key value And so we bring us whole selves to work but within the context of being respectful to one another So so I think I think it's both right you need to to bring your whole selves to work because that's how individuals are more engaged at work and that's That's the kind of culture we're trying to create but it has to be With a set of values and within the context of the values of an organization and respectful. Yeah, because I've spoken to a lot of Sorry, sorry Cara. Yeah, you know, I was just going to say it is respectful is being is key Yes, I guys isn't going to say I've spoken to quite a lot of people and they've been struggling Struggling with this, you know, they want to they want to share more work They want to be open authentic Um, but I've really struggled with you know, knowing that I don't know the person Opposite them on the zoom now clearly, you know Feels differently about certain things and you know, we're always told when you grow up Don't speak about politics. Don't speak about religion. Don't speak about race um And quite a few people quite like to speak about You know debate about politics and you know, it's quite nice to be able to speak to people But not have an argument, you know agree to disagree Have a have a you know adult conversation and you know become friends and build a relationship and it's it's Sometimes difficult work to do that. Yeah, it is it is and especially when um, you know, there's an individual within a group that has a contrarian view And and the rest of the group doesn't and and so that person then ends up feeling excluded Which is the antithesis of inclusion Yes, and so um So to to me look, I don't think you can draw these hard and fast boundaries that prevent the kinds of conversations that you're talking about because Because at the end of they were human and we're trying to engage with one another I do think it comes back to something you and I've just talked about which is the idea of Seeking first to understand before being understood. Yeah, and if we start with that premise and be inquisitive and curious in a genuine way We're more likely to To get a more productive conversation Yeah, very true Very true Also interested. I mean, you've obviously quite thoughtful about Your leadership and how if how is your your life experience and journey in the story? You just said influenced your your leadership. Yeah um You know, if I go back to to my childhood My mother Had a career in the national health service in the uk as a midwife And um, she had us I'm the oldest of two And uh, I was born Well, um when she was relatively old at that time considering society at that time That's because she wanted to focus on her career correct, um Fast-forward we encountered some family problems financial problems as a family and and my mother was an anchor around Um, really supporting us during that time. So I've always had um, a very strong focus on gender diversity Uh and diversity more broadly and a lot of that heralds back from the role that my mother played in raising us You know, I mentioned what she said to us Um growing up you have to work twice as hard who's somebody who's white to be able to succeed And and so work ethic was has been a strong component as well as influenced me I'm also somewhat risk averse and um, and and that's something I've had to fight uh through a little bit and um and counter that and and and not immediately think about the Why I should say no to something and and really think about why I should say yes to it And and that's something I've worked through. So if I if I put all that together um, you know, I've really thought about how um, I as a leader Can impact others and and I've sort of framed this in my own purpose which is this idea of Unlocking and unleashing the power and potential in others so that they can experience their own purpose And um and and the leadership roles that I've had have allowed me to do that Yeah, how do you develop into leadership because you know, it's A lot of a lot of people that are trans you know, like they want to transition into leadership They want to create go up the career ladder But a lot of the time early on You know, you do well at school down to you You know, you enter you go to university again. It's down to you to study um If you've done team sports you start to get some maybe some early leadership experiences And then you start work and again early on in your career. It's again, it's your personal performance And once suddenly when you get thrust into, you know, a leadership role Then mentally it takes people a bit of time to to shift from I to we You know, did you did you did you experience that transition? Yeah? No, absolutely. I did and part partly um You're absolutely right. Most people end up becoming you know, in quotes leaders or at least leading people teams As a function of their individual contributions and a function of what they've done As in in their roles prior to becoming a leader So then you become a leader and you're given responsibilities on the scene But no one necessarily gives you the the handbook the blueprint to say here you go Here's how you be a successful leader. So a lot of it's trial and error and for me I remember a mentor and this is probably key is is are the mentors along the way that have helped me move into these roles a mentor said to me that um We have to move away from a culture of heroes And and what he meant by that was prior to that as individuals I felt was though I was impacting the organization through my ability to sell work deliver that work And and and really just grow the business in that way And what he said was as you've transitioned to a leader your role is not your individual contribution, but your ability to help others Achieve what you've been able to achieve. So you equip them you remove obstacles you Coach them you sponsor them And so that that I've had to learn that right at that pivot when I moved from an individual contributor to a leader and then since since being in formal leadership roles, I'm constantly um aware of other role models around me that I see doing things really effectively you have to be a tune to that um, and I worked with some amazing people Um to be able to to be able to emulate them in certain ways Yeah, I think that's great because so many people, you know, I mean, they don't like to admit it within the organization, but they really struggle with that that that transition piece um And yeah, you know, I think for for those watching and listening, you know, I think everyone goes through that Yeah, I know it's okay to feel like that and and I mean the interesting the one I was I have an exact coach as well and Really interesting piece of advice is, you know, treat your career like a business You know, you're the CEO of your business and don't wait for Your company to provide the learning opportunities, you know, take ownership of your career and Go get mentors go learn go listen to stuff go watch stuff and you know acquire the tools that you need to You know to go through that journey. Yeah No, you're you know, I I remember another mentor saying exactly what you just said you're the CEO of your own career and um, it does it does mean that they're It's incumbent upon you to seek out opportunities to build networks. I mean, that's another thing that I I've um I've learned over the years And and I I don't know if you're aware of Myers-Briggs Yeah, it's a profile Testing and and I I'm an ENTJ, but I'm a borderline extrovert Borderline so I I could easily slip into introvert. So There are some occasions. I derive my energy from other people and others. I need downtime but I so I've had to develop um networking skills and and so As I've done that over the years It starts from a place of curiosity So if I'm curious about somebody It makes it it actually becomes very natural. So when we were talking and and uh prior You know prior to this formal conversation I Yeah, I was curious about your background. Um, and you were sharing with me just your your parents and and uh the immigrant experience and um being yeah, I think you said your family being um Uh, is it your grandfather that um owned the only newspaper Jewish newspaper in Cairo, right? Yes, that was really interesting and I since actually really told that to somebody else Because I I just found that really interesting. So I I think if we um start from a place of curiosity networking doesn't become This alien scary thing. It just becomes a way of learning and being interested Yeah, and so many so many great stories, you know, so many we've got so many things that we share You know on the face of it You might look at you and I and people in their minds don't think oh quite different, you know different race Age, okay. I mean, you know, but actually our stories aren't too dissimilar You know, if you get in if you get into it, um, obviously they're personal to us, but It's I think it's really it's really fascinating But it is about making those connections, right? It's also when you when you engage with somebody um It's human nature to look for areas of commonality. I think right so We and we're striving to make a connection and when you make a connection that's real and substantive You you just feel you feel really good about that you feel like that's that that's you've connected with somebody on a human level Not a superficial level, but a real a deep level It's amazing and also I was a young guy asked me the other day How do I I'm a mentor this young guy and he said, you know, how do I get more opportunities? And so it was either it's business or job opportunities I can't think of a better way than building a really good network, you know a community of people Um and to build a community you need to spend time with people you need to be kind Um help people, you know do things for others You know, and if you you know if you look at your you know career over a long period of time I mean we're gonna be working for a long time and focus on just building a good community of people It's it's gonna you know really benefit you in the long term. So it's a really good way Yeah, and I think it has it has to be grounded in authenticity It has to be grounded in that you're not just doing it to get something out of it You're doing it because You're you're authentic as an individual and you're seeking to build a relationship and you're curious I I tell you I can spot a mile off somebody that's inauthentic and it and it just It really rubs me out the way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah The other interesting thing is a lot a lot of people again have said it's really difficult now because I'm not going into the office You know, I'm not meeting people on the water cooler um But I think for me and I would love to hear your thoughts on this But I think now it's such an amazing opportunity to network even more than he did before I mean linkedin for example Is free to use it's probably the modern day cocktail party and everyone you're probably likely to work with now and in the future Work with as a client. They're all on there And and and a lot of people are most people love to chat You know, they're all at home They want to engage and have conversations and I think even if you're a real introvert You probably have to dial up a little bit less Courage or your extrovertness then you would do if you were in a bar or in a networking event in person. Yeah. Yeah, they're They're pros and cons, right? There are there are ways in which we've been able to connect with people in a virtual environment That we we would never have been able to connect to Before just because of whether it be by travel or because we've been able to convene virtual forums more easily Involving people from all kinds of walks of life and and I think Through those for for some of us. We've created relationships and we haven't even met them I know one of the projects I worked on for 18 months. There are individuals I worked with over teams and Webex that I have never met in person And I may never meet in person and yet we we got to know one another through that time Um, but then but there is something also to be said about the the human connection as well. It was interesting coming out of the pandemic And meeting some people that I'd been working with on zoom for for the prior 12 months or so and they're meeting them in person There was something very very different about that experience that there was a level of connection that I think is it can be you you can't surpass that with with other forms of communication and connection so I I think it's I but I we have to evolve and adapt and and I don't think it's a It's an or I think it's an and yeah, both the virtual world and the the real world Yes, um being able to create connections. That's very true. How is I'm really so how is your leadership style if at all Changed over the last 18 months. Yeah You've got people virtual some coming in. I mean and and interesting, you know, how how you might think that the future might like I I think it I think you have to be a lot more intentional about connecting with people as a leader so you think about the the the More the pre-pandemic world when you're traveling and you're meeting people There are countless opportunities for serendipitous interactions with people that are That work in your organization, right? You're walking a whole and you connect with somebody randomly Former relationship who progress an issue or or there's a follow-up that comes out of that conversation That that serendipitous set of interactions That there are less of those in the virtual world. So unless as a leader you're purposefully connecting with people um On a one-on-one basis. It's really it's really difficult to to to emulate that prior pre to have pre pandemic Serendipitous world. So I think that's certainly one. Um, I think the the other thing is You you as a leader Can you also have to manage your own energy? Yeah. So what what I mean by that it's it can be fatiguing Going from You know 7 a.m through to the evenings every day On on these kinds of calls and what has happened. I think Our work days have become elongated during this virtual environment And so unless you put up boundaries to that um, it can quickly suck a lot of energy and time And then cause you to be a less effective leader So I think that that's another piece to it is being able to manage that Um, and I think I guess the third piece as a leader as well It's recognizing that some of these zoom calls for some people Um, just as as my energy is being depleted Their energy could be and and they also may may be more of an introvert So how do you engage them in a broader group? Um, and so using things like breakouts can be helpful, right using the chat feature To engage them in in that uh in a conversation could be helpful for some of those people asking them Are they comfortable having their camera on or is it actually better for them? You know to turn turn their camera off And so, you know as a leader trying to meet people where they're at I think is another another Technique that that I've tried to employ as well Then that that's really good because it's a lot of a lot of people over the pandemic And there's a lot of stories of burnout still is um people in different scenarios, you know people working in their bedrooms and Parents looking after their kids when the schools were shut What what did what did you do over the pandemic to make people feel that they could be open With yeah what that scenario was. Yeah, I I would say um, I mean it evolved for one it evolved as we went along because we learned Um, how how best to manage through those times. We've done things like Um for some of our businesses said on fridays Let's try and limit the number of internal meetings. Let's try and come off camera when there are meetings and and have some some Opportunity just to recharge right so that's that was one thing We've done things like uh, and many organizers have done this have done things like virtual happy hours at you know At the end of the day to connect And and create a more of a social environment um, we've also um tried to be I think a little bit more focused around You know who needs to be at that meeting who who doesn't so we're not Continually bombarding people with with meeting requests. I think another technique has said look block time For some you know, there's real simple things when you're working across different time zones um You can one can be less cognizant of Things like lunch times, right? So to block your lunch time Which is what I do and I'll open it up when I need to but I try to block it so I can have a meal During the day, right? Yeah, and so there are just things like that where comes back to um, the things that we've talked about Um being authentic seeking to understand where somebody else is in their situation And and being empathetic to it. That's I guess another word that we haven't used but it's about being empathetic leaders So That's true I I've had a lot of people putting a fake commute in their diary The beginning of the day because if you're if you're working at home a lot of people you roll out of bed You come into your office or wherever you work and as you as you said the days get elongated and you can forget to move You know, it's just good to move in the morning. And then I I personally I put my exercise in my diary like Like it's the most important meeting of the day, you know, like if I had a meeting with you, I wouldn't move it I'm not moving my uh, I'm not moving my my gym session. Yeah And I just feel so much better when I'm doing those things Yeah, I I think that's important and I I've tried to do that as well Particularly around the exercise. I mean that's like I go through ups and downs I'm sure like many people sometimes I'm going through a really good streak of getting my runs in and and Workouts and then others I you know, they they go by a little bit by the wayside, but no, I'm 100% with you We've got we've got to draw boundaries employers as they seek to create more inclusive environments also have to help employees and colleagues set boundaries as well and create the environment where individuals can do that Yes, the one thing I'm I'm going to be honest the one thing I'm working on Which I haven't been able to do is leave my phone outside my bedroom In the evening because I I get sucked in I'm looking at my emails. I'm you know working internationally and get email So that's for me. That's the thing I'm working on which I think will have a good impact on better sleep You got to do it. I I've been doing it for years. It's never in my room Yeah, it's never never quite I at the end of the day I plug in my phone outside of my room and I I use the the The bed as a sanctuary to try to just switch off and decompress I think it's so so important. I need to take your lead on that Last thing before we go, I'm really to get your thoughts on maybe a few trends that you think are going to materialize over the next You know a couple of years and how maybe like this this whole work from home Hybrid working, you know how that might end up evolving. Yeah That's I mean, I've never been much of a futurist when it comes to that then I I've got a colleague and a friend who We will have sometimes these conversations about the future and predictions and I would say nine times out of 10 It's usually the opposite of what he says. So it's a really good guide to actually figure out. What's really going to happen is ask him so So my my view is I look I I don't I think the the workplace is going to evolve where yes, there'll be there'll be a hybrid Type environment, but I think what the what the ways in which we work today um in in the knowledge worker environment is that we've realized that there is so much inefficiency when you Move to when you commute from where you are right now So I'm in my home and if I were to commute into work in the Willis tower in Chicago I I Pack my bag. I'd walk to the train. I'd get on to the train Go to Chicago get off the train and then walk to the Willis tower open up my laptop and do exactly what I could have done an hour prior so That just makes no sense So so as we think about just the role of of the workplace to me, it's it's going to evolve around Why do we come into the workplace? It's to collaborate. It's to develop people and train them. It's to create Develop meetings with clients and interact with clients. It's So there are there are specific reasons why we've come into the workplace And versus having the default be coming to the workplace now I I think it's critical that for teams to function that they have to be interactions when teams come together But but I don't think it will be the default where people are going to do what I just described around my commute into into Chicago I do think we have to be careful though particularly for Individuals starting out in their career So so, you know, my son is in college in in three years time. He'll enter the workplace and Right now he's doing some work outside of college right now and he's working with a lot of people He's never met before so maybe he's going to adapt to that environment, but I do still think When you when you first join an organization And you want to meet other individuals and you want to to be part of a culture In-person interaction has to be part of the equation. It may not be the default, but it has to be part of that equation Yeah, completely agree and I agree that, you know, it's not going to be the same as it was I think that's that's almost for certain. I mean, I'm in London in ec3 right now It's a Thursday and I mean, there's almost no one on the streets You know, the buildings are pretty much empty Um, amazingly everything's going on virtually still, right? I mean the economy is roaring along and You know in America loads of new jobs being created But if you walked the streets right now and you'd go to the Lloyd's building and you'd have a look at You'd think, you know, what's going on. Yeah, so It's going to be really really interesting. A lot of businesses I speak to they're Landing on some hybrid kind of model, you know, a few days a week or you're in with your team Will you work from home depending on the kind of job function that you do? Yeah But it's yeah, it's going to be really interesting to see how it evolves. It is. I think I think people During this time have have built a lot of resilience around just their own Their own whatever situations they've been in whether it be young kids or being On their own during this time. It's been hard for many people And I think there's a sense of resilience that has been built I also think there's a sense of Change and adaptability. I think you're seeing people Willing to to move into different jobs, for example You're seeing that across certainly the united states. We call it the great resignation where you've seen individuals that Move from one company to another. I think there's almost this this ability to to change and adapt more easily Because of what we've gone through and a level of resilience to be able to Weather through storms. So maybe that's some of the positives, but I think we've noticed a little bit of that Yeah, no, because they say, you know, once you once when you go through a shared experience So this has been a I mean the world has gone through this experience together But you always I've found from my team. We've got closer together You know, we've been going through and helping each other through this You know this tough moment and I think we've got a lot closer and together Through it. We've all been in our houses. You've seen people's fridges Their bedrooms, you know, wherever people might choose to be and it's been a real Yeah, it's been a really interesting experience. Yeah Yeah, it's the time always is the ability to to look back and allow us to reflect So it'll be we should have this conversation in five years time and See see where we're at at this point Definitely love it. Inbred, thank you so much for joining me Really lovely to hear your story and all the great things that you're doing. So thank you so much Really appreciate it. Pleasure pleasure