 And I can remember as a child, what helped me so much deal with the things that I was dealing with was I really felt a soul connection. I felt like there was this part of me that was guiding me and helping me to understand things beyond my human development would have allowed me to do. And I can remember when I got to be a teenager, I was so fed up with so many things that I wasn't gonna listen to anybody, including my soul. I remember when I shut that down. Hello, beautiful souls. Welcome back to Art of Awakening. My name is Ona Christie, a visionary artist in Mystic Oracle, and I have a very special guest here today. I am super excited to welcome Deborah Chalette Wilson to Art of Awakening. So welcome, Deborah. I'm glad to be here. Yeah. So Deborah is an expert in trauma, and she's also a very awakened person. So, Deborah, I feel like you represent this kind of golden sort of personality of somebody who gets what it is to be in this awakening process and who has gone through an awakening process, but yet you have the professional certifications of like a counselor or therapist. And I'm gonna read your bio in just a minute so that people can hear that. But I feel like you are really addressing some issues with trauma, right? That I feel are really, really important for those who are on the awakening path because for most of us we have dealt with a lot of trauma and I can't wait to talk to you about this, but I wanna introduce you first. So Deborah Chalette Wilson is the founder and CEO of Country Pathways, an education coaching and counseling company. She's a Texas licensed professional counselor, national certified counselor, certified clear your beliefs practitioner, certified heart math practitioner. It goes on and on. She's also a certified professional coach. She has so much training behind her and over 20 years of experience in stress, attachment, trauma, and relationships. She's also an author. So you've written the sanctuary found a novel about a woman's healing journey, escaping domestic violence. And also a book called Your Brain and Heart wants to talk to you. I love that title. Can you hold that book up? The heart is so important getting into the heart. And I love that you've written a book about this and about the brain heart connection. And you've also co-authored a book what the world needs now healing trauma in ourselves and our children and how to stop passing on the pain of intergenerational trauma to the next generations. So that has won awards from the Texas Authors Association. And I think that also is really important for those who are awakening because we do have that ancestral trauma that we take on that we're here to heal. And then finally, Deborah has served teachers, parents, and other professionals with presentations on issues related to parent and child relations, stress, self-care for women, healing trauma, and more at conferences in Texas, Virginia and Oklahoma. And I see that you're presently working. You're gonna be offering a free live webinar in a couple of weeks here, three keys to the soulful self. And I love that. And we'll talk a little bit more about that later and how people can sign up for that. But all right, so Deborah, I am so thrilled to have you here because you represent this wealth of knowledge and information and supports on this whole process of dealing with trauma, which I guess maybe we'll start with, I wanna ask you what led you to become a therapist in the first place and also to specialize in trauma? Well, it came out of course my experience because I had childhood trauma and also adult domestic violence was an experience that I had as well. And another thing that it took me a while to kind of connect to this, but sometimes it's been traumatic to be a woman. Interesting, yeah. In the workplace because of the lack of what I experienced in the workplace was a lack of just because I was a woman, I didn't need different. I didn't need things. I didn't need to advance. I didn't need to get a raise. I mean, those were blatantly told to me back in the 70s, back in the 70s. Oh, right, okay. Yeah, I'm not so sure how much that has changed. I know there has been some change. But anyway, so just not, having that experience of feeling discounted and disappreciated. Yeah, and I think that, especially now because we're still working through that, right? The attitudes towards women, I feel like men also are feeling really underappreciated in a lot of ways right now. And I feel like it's both and there's all this unprocessed wounding and trauma that's been going on. That's exactly like through the workplace, through the family relations, through the intergenerational stuff. It's huge and you've experienced a lot of that. Was there anything particularly that you wanted to bring up as like any kind of pivotal moment that made you kind of realize this is what I wanna do? Well, not necessarily, it's what I always did. I was the go-to person as a child. My mother was my first client and my family was my first group. So I was the one who tried to keep things going and pick up the slack where my parents didn't. I was the oldest of six children. And my siblings, I felt like were my children because I was the one who sometimes got up in the middle of the night to change their diaper and feed them. And when I was in high school, I stayed home from school because my mother didn't feel like taking care of her baby. So that's kind of, I just never, it was just kind of what I did. And then I was my friends, I was the go-to person they wanna talk to about their problems. So it was just kind of, I think I would have been that way anyway. And then as an adult, I guess it was until I was about in my 30s or 40s and I began to kind of put some things together for myself that I decided, why don't I go and get the credentials to do what I've always done? And then that way, I can make my living with what's natural for me. Exactly, and that's beautiful. And I think that's a theme that so many awakening souls kind of come to at some point in their life. So almost everybody, right? It's like, oh, why don't I just, we're not doing what I'm here to do. Yeah, right, yes. I kind of a no-brainer, but it took a while to get there. Yeah, and what do you think that kind of barrier is to get there? Because I know a lot of people are like, there's some kind of resistance or even just like a not realization, not even realizing this is what I'm supposed to do. Well, I think that goes to, what when you grow up, developmental trauma, I don't think people use that term much, but when we're in development as human beings. Now I do believe we come in as a soul. Yeah. And as a baby, we have our voice. We know what we need. And we, if we were hungry, we cry. If we're feeling good, we go go gaga, and all that. So we have our voice. So we kind of know that, but then when our needs are not met, as we're developing, that affects, well, of course that affects the brain and the nervous systems development, but it also writes on the foundation of who we believe we are and not and who we believe we're not. So we start losing contact to me with the soul of ourselves because our human needs override. Those survival needs become like a distraction. Right. And I can remember as a child, what helped me so much deal with the things that I was dealing with was I really felt a soul connection. I felt like there was this part of me that was guiding me and helping me to understand things beyond my human development would have allowed me to do. It was kind of a weird experience, but it was my experience nonetheless. And I can remember when I got to be a teenager, I was so fed up with so many things that I wasn't gonna listen to anybody, including my soul. I remember when I shut that down. Oh, do you like to remember that? I really remember it. And it's come back to me many times. Because, you know, but I mean, maybe it's what I needed to experience what I experienced because it has taught me so much about what it is to be a human being when you're not connected to your soul, when you're not listening to your soul. Exactly. So do you wanna share a little bit about your healing journey, your own? Well, it's not been a straight line, that's for sure. You know, it's kind of like I listen to my soul and then I don't. Right, yeah. And then I have these crisis issues and then I'm like, okay, maybe I need to pay attention again. So it's been kind of a roller coaster. And I have done a lot of workshops, I guess back in the 70s, 80s, 90s, a lot of human potential movement things, a lot of spiritual retreats, a lot of research and reading on different religions, sociology, psychology, history, religion. And so all of those things have been a part of kind of what I've been integrating all this time. You know, along with my own experiences and not understanding why is this going the way it's going? What's, and of course along that journey, I learned that my developmental deficits have been the main thing that's gotten in my way. And what do you mean by developmental deficits? Well, we all have the need lifelong as human beings for a sense of safety, security, a sense of belonging and a sense that we make a difference. Yes. And, but fundamentally when we're children, if we don't have our emotional needs met, then those things go into deficits. So if they kind of go into deficit mode, we keep growing, but we're just kind of carrying those deficits along with us unconsciously. It's kind of like we don't know what we don't know. Okay. And if you can define deficit, what does that? Well, that means we didn't get something that we needed. Got it. Okay. You know, it's like when you have a need, it's kind of like if you've got an itch and you scratch it and then it's not a need anymore. Right, okay, okay. But if it doesn't, if you don't meet that need, it just keeps coming back. Right, okay. So it's almost like I get this image of carrying around like a bucket with a black hole in it or something, right? Well, yeah, I kind of, I talk about it well with my puppets. I'll just use my little puppet. So this is the trauma monster. And so this is the part of us that I explain that carries our unexpressed, unintegrated, unprocessed, traumatic experiences. Because we can't, if we, we can't deal with them, then the body is just designed to suppress them. So it gets suppressed here. And you don't know you have it until the right trigger comes along. And this thing volcanoes out, so to speak. Yeah, yeah. Well, those situations, like who have, why did that come out my mouth, right? Why? Yes, exactly. Those intent that, and to me, my rule of thumb is if I'm feeling something intense, not like a passionate kind of intense, but I mean, just boom, more than what is necessary for the experience, then I've got something I need to look at. That is a gem right there. What you just said, right? If you are experiencing emotions that are beyond what is really called for, if you can look with your rational mind, that's an issue. That's huge. Huge. And so that's why I give the trauma, that's why I call it the trauma monster. It was really interesting is that when I've had these in my office, when I used to have an office and I worked with children, children that were traumatized were always would pick this one out. Interesting. That they wanted to play with. Well, children are so wise. Exactly. Well, that's another, I've learned a lot from children and I've learned a lot from remembering. And really connecting with the hurt child, inner child that I've carried with me. To connecting to that aspect of myself that didn't get to express process and integrate the experience at the time because it was too big. And we will default to what I call the big people. If we're as children, if we're gonna have, between our authenticity and attachment, we will pick attachment, which is connecting to the big people in order to survive. And we default our authenticity. Interesting, because a child is designed to attach to the parent, right? So that the parent can lead them and help them develop into their own home. Yeah, that's the theory. I don't see it much in practice. Because we have some iterations of wounded children, right? Yeah, because of that intergenerational trauma that I see is reaching a crescendo in our culture today. And people don't realize that we're re-enacting from this place more than ever before. And to me, that's a call for awakening. Okay, so beautiful. Yeah, and do you see when you work with people because you don't work specifically with Starseys or anything, you're more of a mainstream therapist, but do you see a lot of the spiritual awakening happening through this process of healing and trauma? More so since COVID. Interesting, interesting. Because if you have, if your trauma monster is full and you get more trauma, it's gonna blow it right up. Then it gets triggered. You might be able to keep a lot of this contained and go on and function and do well in life, in a lot of different areas of your life. But when you get more trauma or too much chronic ongoing stress, then the container is not just boundless. It has a limit. And once you've reached your limits, then you fall apart and people don't realize that they don't look at that as, oh, maybe I need to deal with something that I haven't dealt with. But that's to me where I like to help people get to, to where they understand how trauma lives in our body because the mind remembers, I mean, the body remembers what the mind forgets. And that's why we get triggered through our sensory system not through our head. We get triggered through what's below our neck. Interesting. So sensory issues, is that a purdable, the kind of trauma constellation of things that happen? Yeah, from what, you know, from what I've experienced and learned and taught. Yes. That if you think about when you have an experience, when you have an experience, how do you have an experience? For your senses. You have it in your thoughts? No, you have it in your body. The thoughts come later as you analyze what you experienced. Right. But when you're having an experience, it's just in your body. Right. You know, well, it's like when, you know, doing a painting, I paint. When I'm in that painting place, you think I'm thinking, but it's really, I'm experiencing something inside of me that's bubbling up, wanting expression, and it doesn't have words. Right, yes. So I do colors, you know, or a drawing or whatever. Right, right. So that's through the sensory system. You know, and, you know, I don't know if your people know about Candice Perch, she's not on the plane anymore, but she wrote a book called The Molecules of Emotion and she discovered peptides and how those peptides in our body care, are there, you know, it's like, what she said is our body is our unconscious mind. Right. Because when we react to things from a sensory trigger, it's not like a thought out thing, it just, you find yourself there. Yes. You know, you're just there and go in sometimes wondering, what the heck? You know, where this comes from. You know, so that's the, I guess the fascinating thing about how we're made is that we can carry so much within us and be brilliant and effective and help other people and be successful in all kinds of ways. And then that right trigger comes along and we're brought to our knees and we just don't get it. Right, right. Let's see, we can get it and we need to get it. Well, it's almost like this, like telling us there's something here to get, right? There's something. Right, exactly, there is. There's something we haven't become that we haven't awakened to. Right, right. You know, and as I've awakened to the things that I couldn't express, process and integrate as a child or a young woman, then the wisdom of those experiences becomes integrated into my awareness. Right, right. And have you, what's your feeling? Have you reconnected then with that voice that you said you had as a child? Oh yeah. Yeah. Yes, I have a definitely reconnected. Like, okay, we're not gonna go away again. Right. What I've learned is, it's kind of like the body is the ego. And it's in this three-dimensional world. But the soul is in the fourth dimension. It's in the invisible dimension. Right, right. And we're having this invisible conversation within ourselves and with each other that we don't realize. Right, all the time. Yes. Yeah. But first we need to get it with ourselves so we can get clear with who we really are and who we're not. Because as children, we buy into everyone else's definition of who we are and what's possible for us and what we can and can't do. And we believe it. Yeah. Now, we may later, especially as children until we're about like eight to 10, we're in what's called a hypnagogic stage, state, which means we just take everything in as the truth. We can't discern. Right. On our human level. And then we start noticing things and putting things together. All along we're putting things together because we're also meaning makers. Right, right. We give meaning to our experiences based on where our consciousness is at that time. Oh, okay. Yeah. So I don't want my two year old consciousness running my life anymore. Right. Or my five year old or my teenager. Or even my 25 year old. Yeah. I mean, you can kind of look and see sometimes by a person's behavior. It's like, oh, that's sort of like, they got arrested at two in some ways that, you know, and it's coming out. Let's see, actually they did. Yeah, yeah. The trauma arrests us. Right, right. And, you know, it's kind of like that. I kind of think of it as being suspended in, you know, kind of a suspension. Yes. You know, like they do in the, some of the movies with the Starships and stuff and they have to go into the movies. Right, you know. But it's like this part of this little piece of us in that experience. Right. Goes into this kind of frozen place. Yeah. And it stays there until the right trigger comes along. Which could be years later and you're going, what the heck? Why am I acting like five? Right. You know, why do I want to have a hissy fit? Yeah. So I'm curious about the puppets because it feels to me like those are something that's really powerful because it's, it's not speaking the words, right? If you want to connect to those. So let me, yeah. Let me introduce you to my puppet. So this is Amy Godella. She was the one I started out with first because when I learned about the, it's the amygdala. I couldn't remember amygdala but I could remember Amy Godella. And that's how I presented her to people, children and adults to explain about this. She's the fear receptor. She's the watchdog. She's always on alert for a threat. Yeah. Now used to threats, we would think of threats as like a saber-toothed tiger chasing us. Right. And so actually if it wasn't for this part of us, none of our ancestors would have survived. So we all come from survivors. Of course, yes. But we, but also, right. Yes, that's good to remember. But this part of us can, when it gets triggered, it can get stuck on. You know, we can forget that we have an off button. So everything becomes a threat. Yes. That's why people have anxiety and depression and react badly and that kind of stuff. It's because their nervous system gets on high alert and so everything looks like a saber-toothed tiger. Yeah. Right, yeah. And I mean, you can see that playing out, I think pretty clearly in what's going on in our country and around the world. Since COVID, because like you said, it really ramped up that whole anxiety level overall. Yes. Everything's triggering to so many people. Yeah, because it's a, well, but her job is to help us, number one, deal with the threat, identify a threat and then remember the threat so that if anything is similar to that threat that we survived, she's gonna make us go on high alert. Right. See, that's the thing is if it's traumatic, then it gets stored in here. And when she gets triggered, this gets triggered. Got it. Okay. Okay. And so technically the, this is Hannah Hiffa Campus. She's supposed to be able to calm Amy down. What's really interesting is that Amy is online in a human being by 18 months. Hmm, okay. But the Hiffa Campus, which helps Amy calm down, kind of go back into homeostasis, is not online in the brain until 36 months. Wow, there's a gap there. Yeah, so what that means is a human child at 18 months old, up until they're three can't even learn how to self-regulate. Interesting. They have to have a calm adult to soothe them. Interesting. And so if Amy kind of goes on alert, it's kind of like, think about like you're watching a movie at night and all of a sudden you hear a bang. And you go on alert, that's Amy. It's like, what is that? Yeah. And then you go check it out and it's the trash can. Dog knocked it over. So then the Hiffa Campus comes on and says, okay, so we can call them back then. Right, yeah. And so that's kind of how, I mean, this is real elementary. I'm not a neuroscientist, but this is the best that I came up with to explain basics of how we work. Well, and so then you're, this is a core cortex, thinking part of your brain. So you can bring your brain back online. The problem is, so these work together, so the Hiffa Campus calms Amy down and then you can get back in the thinking part of your brain. But if you're a child, your thinking part of your brain doesn't get fully developed between 25 and 30 years old. When I learned that, I forgave myself for those years. Right. Yeah. It makes some really good decisions. I didn't have, yeah. That's so pertinent right now, especially because there's a lot about choices made by very young people. Yes. That sheds a lot of light, I think, on a lot of things. And certainly in my own experience, looking back at my own life, it's like, wow. Yes, yeah. I mean, me too. I mean, I can look it back and I can see that really, I guess the big aha for me was I could not have done anything different than I did until I learned different. Huge self-forgiveness there, isn't there? Wow. Yes. And so then here comes the art. Oh, I love it. That's my favorite. Yeah, this is Sally Hart. And I started out, like I said, working with children and trying to help children understand their stress and that they weren't bad when they got stressed, but to learn how to calm down. Right. So then I, you know, so it's like, okay, so I got the neuroscience part and now what? What do you do? How do you calm down? Well, that's where the heart came in because the Hartmath Institute was started back in the 90s, has done a lot of research on the heart and heart rate variability. And what that is is the space between heartbeats. And what they discovered was emotions affect the heart rate variability. Right. Now, we've made emotions, I think we're emotionally illiterate in this country as well as illiterate with child development and illiterate in understanding the impact of trauma and how to transform that trauma into triumph for people. So what the Hartmath discovered was that emotions, there are no right or wrong emotions. Emotions are energy and motion to me. Right, right. You know, and you feel that and they vibrate and they vibrate at different levels of hurts. Yeah. And so we have renewing emotions, which are things like peace and calm and love and compassion and our depleting emotions are emotions like stress and anger and frustration and those kind of things. And so what they do is they affect the heart differently and the heart has its own nervous system. It has 40,000 neurites. And actually the heart starts beating before the brain develops. Wow. And so the- It's telling, isn't it? Yeah. And so what they discovered is the heart and brain talk to each other. But if you measure the electromagnetic force field between the brain and the heart, the heart's electromagnetic field, they've measured three feet from the body. Wow. But the brains is just not too far out. Yeah. So they speak to each other, but the heart speaks more to the brain than the brain does to the heart. Interesting. And then I don't have a puppet for the gut, but the gut also gets into it. Because what happens in our emotions and in the brain triggers our gut. That's why so many people have stress causes so much gut problems. Yeah. That's really interesting because I know just a little bit about like ancient Celtic spirituality, they have what's called the three cauldrons. And it's basically it's- Oh. Heart, gut. Yeah. Yeah. And we've left the gut out, you know. And so again in my own journey to where I am today, it was the trauma and then the neuroscience and then the heart and then the gut. So it's like we're one system. Right. And what affects one part of us affects other systems. And then the other interesting thing about the heart is that they've found techniques to help you re-regulate yourself. Right. So you can actually learn to shift from depleting emotions to the renewing emotions. And you can literally learn to shift your heart rate variability to where it's more coherent. Because if you look on a sine wave when your heart is coherent, the wave is smooth and even. Right. But when it's incoherent, then it's all choppy. Yeah. Yeah. In a way we have ways of making the invisible visible. But what's another thing that is so fascinating is that if you put a baby in a mom's lap and the baby's heart is connected to a machine and the mom's brain is connected to a different machine, you can watch their waves. They're kind of when the mom's not focused on the baby, not much is happening. But if the mom looks at the baby and starts feeling her love for the baby, those waves sink up. Wow. So we know that we have an electromagnetic field around us. It's been called lots of things. Now, I mean, and I think it goes beyond the three feet. But it's kind of like we show up to each other before we're even close to each other. We're feeling each other's feelings. And as a matter of fact, there's something called mirror neurons where what we see, we kind of feel the same way is what we're looking at. It's when some certain people walk in the room, you feel that presence. Yes. Yeah. It's like a walk in, it's like open. Yeah. You walk in a room and you just kind of feel the energy in it and you're going, what in the world? And then you find out later, somebody was having an argument before you got there. Right. And it's like, so that energy, so energetically, that's what I call the invisible conversation, that we have it with ourselves, between our ego and our soul. We're also having it with each other. And I think that's important to get because to me, it gives us as we awaken and become more what I call into our soulful self, then that gives us the ability to create that energetic field that's more like an island of safety for people. Yes. Where people feel safe within our energy. Right, right. Where we can be more compassionate and understanding, not like being walked over. Yeah. We need healthy boundaries, but to where we're not so judgmental about each other, because we judge each other very harshly, but I say that's because we're judging ourselves harshly. You quit doing that and you quit, you began to realize that other people got their own story. Yeah. You know, but you also need to be mindful about whether you hang out with him or not. That's true, right? Because, you know, we're all interconnected, but we're not always here to take on somebody else's. Well, sometimes you have to love people from afar. Exactly, yes. So tell me a little bit about your work and maybe how it's changed over the years. Well, since I worked so much with children and actually the book, this little book, I was my inspiration for it was a little girl I was seeing and I couldn't get the grownups to get what I was trying to explain to them about her behavior. And I worked a lot with teachers and parents in school settings and over the years, children's behavior has just become more aggressive and hostile and people don't understand it, but they don't understand children have stress. Children have this neurophysiology, you know? And so they're more easily reactive when they're not getting their needs met. And then if adults get mad at them, that doesn't calm them down. And so over time, adults are getting more reactive because of the pressures they're dealing with and the stressors of their lives. So you've got stressed out parents and teachers, stressed out kids, and that is not a calming interaction make. Right, right. And so I presented lots of things to adults, the big people as I call them, and they were stuck in their old paradigms and just didn't seem open to what I was saying and perceived me as just saying children should be allowed to do whatever they want, which is not what I was saying. What I was calling for is for them to come to a new understanding about stress and how trauma plays out in children so they could be more mindful about that and not be judging the children as bad kids or having bad behavior and that needed to be punished. Mm-hmm, right, right. So the more kids are punished when they're stressed out, it doesn't calm them down. Right. So it's like we kind of keep creating the problem we're trying to solve. So the book, your brain and heart wanna talk to you, I wrote, it's like a children's book, but it's really meant for adults to read to children to maybe understand children a little better. And then what I realized out of all of that was that the adults have wounded children inside of them. Right, yeah. And so I started shifting my practice to working more with adults and in particular women to help women grow and develop themselves into feeling more empowered. Right, yeah. And to feel more, well, to take more self-care because women are notorious for putting, well, I'd say you don't even put yourself on your list. Not even last, right? Not even last, you're just not even on the list. And I was one of those who did that too, to my detriment. So that was an awakening is like when you, if you keep giving and giving until you've given yourself out then what good are you for yourself or anybody else? So I've learned that self-care is imperative to continue to other care as well. We need both, not one or the other. And then during COVID, I had to shift my practice to online and I was kind of taken aback by people who were wanting counseling and therapy that said, I know that I had traumas in my childhood and I think they're affecting me now. And I had never heard that before. Okay. So it's like some awareness that sort of... Yes, yes, it's surfaced and it's just keeps surfacing. And I would share some of what I've shared with you today with them and they'd say, nobody ever told me anything about this. It makes, it helped them make sense of their own experience. And that to me is very empowering to really get yourself in a different way than what you thought, which wasn't usually very positive. Yeah, exactly. I'd like to hear more about the spiritual aspect of this and anything that you've noticed in terms of reconnecting with one's inner guidance or even just people becoming more aware of there's a world beyond what we're actually experiencing with our senses. Well, what I've begun to say to people that I hadn't been saying because, there's rules you have to go by as a therapist, but as I got more into coaching, I felt a little more free. And then even in my fit and my therapeutic practice to present this notion that I have about the soulful self and how that part of us gets covered up and we lose contact with it, but it's not gone. It's just covered up in like we need to be like belief detectives and archeologists to uncover what got covered over us when we were children and we couldn't choose other than to survive. So it goes back to that authentic self, that authentic self of who we are is the soulful self. And then our human development, the ego part of us is kind of run by fear. Right, right. But the soul is run from love, unconditional love. Whereas I, because when I was thinking about all of this within myself, it's like love, love, love. I don't feel like what I grew up with love, even though that was told to me, I'm doing this for your own good. Right. Why does it hurt so much? And so it's like, oh, there's fear-based love. And then there's more soulful love. Right. Which is caring and compassionate and accountable. It's also about holding people accountable for their behavior. That is such an important point, isn't it? Yeah. Because when we start coming back into ourselves, it's like we're literally, we're becoming more adult, right? Yes. Responsibility. And then we start taking the responsibility. It is part of the healing. Right, it is. And so where I'm kind of at with that now is that in order to really be more soulful, I needed to heal my developmental deficits within myself and individuate. And I'm finding not too many people do that. Because they're stuck in their dependency needs on other people to give them, I guess, permission to be themselves. It's like we try to fit in. We try to belong. But the thing of it is, is we don't realize that too often we've had to take our authentic self and stuff it down. Right, right. Yeah. The big people's definition or it could be our peers. And now we've got social media that people are trying to play out, they're playing out these developmental deficits to me. How many likes did I get? It's like, to me, it's like you plan to seed and you just every day you go and dig it up to see if it's growing. Right, yeah. And so if you're looking out here, well, how many likes did I get? What did that person say? Oh, they didn't like me. Oh, these two people are going against me. That's, again, you're not being... Soup of emotional reactions, right? Yes, you're not being able to be your true self. Right, and then that's the concept is virtual circles of finding your eye, right? Finding your discourse core. It's absolutely core. Yes, yeah, the who you are so that you can individuate. That doesn't mean you don't listen to other people, but it's you take it under advisement and you're the authority that decides. Yes, not you. Somebody else. Yeah, so I love this direction that you are taking your work. It is so, I feel like it's core, it's central and it's so important to get out there. So I know that you have a couple of just free gifts or like you have a free gift and then your webinar that's coming up, that's also free. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Okay, yeah, I have a free gift for your people that's a little meditation. And so, you know, I hope that they will enjoy that. And then also my free webinar is three keys to living from your soulful self. Nice, okay, and that is on September, was it 28th, you said? It's 28th, uh-huh. September 28th, okay. Yeah, and I'll be sending more information to you about that. Okay, great. So if you're on my email list, you can expect an email about that. I will also put the links to both your free meditation and a sign up to your webinar in the description box below this video. Oh, I appreciate that, yes. Yeah, great, all right. Well, is there anything else that you would like to share before we close this session here? Well, one thing I'd like to share is it's, we have dependency needs. So we start out dependent and then we get independent. You know, that's me do it myself. It starts around two. Right. And then the next level is interdependence where we realize that we, you know, it's kind of like I can do this for myself but I need other people to do things for me. It's like I depend on the electric company for my electricity. So we get stuck I think in being independent and I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do when I don't care who gets in my way. Yeah, yeah. And that is still deficit needs, not met. Right, yeah. It's still not like to me, maturing into a soulful adult. Right. This is an interdependent being. Such a, just a core concept that I feel like, cause I've been learning and researching into like human, like the spiritual development of humanity. And it follows that same, right? We started out as more of a oneness kind of, but kind of more in oneness, right? But then we had to come down as the planet became denser, right? We came down into the 3D density and which was to discover our eye, right? To develop our individuality. And now we're at this cusp of moving into that interdependence, but there's so much resistance because of all this, you know, the trauma that happened as we... Right. So it's all, as above so below. Yeah. It starts with us as individuals, doesn't it? And yeah, so beautiful work that you're doing. It's so important in this world. Thank you so much for doing the work, for being authentic and also for joining us here on Art of Awakening. So, so much thanks for you for what you're doing. Well, thank you for having me. I really enjoyed it. Yeah, me too. So... And a side to all your people. Yeah. And once more, Debra's free meditation and the link to sign up to her webinar are in the description box below. Take advantage of that. If it feels resonant to you, I really highly recommend, you know, taking advantage of that and always remember you were born to be free.