 Hi everyone. Thank you for joining us tonight. The Alumni Career Pathways series is a collaboration presented by the Alumni Relations and Career Development and Work Integrated Learning Offices. Before we get started, I would like to acknowledge that this panel is being moderated on the unceded territories of the Musqueam, Squamish, and Slewa Two Peoples, who are the rightful protectors and guardians of this land, which is marked on a map by Vancouver. To introduce myself, my name is Sara Mulchan. I'm an artist here in Vancouver, where my work dissects private and public disclosure in parasocial relationships. I represent the Alumni Relations office here at Emily Carr University, and I am an alumni myself graduating in 2015 with a BFA in visual arts. The Alumni Career Pathways series has been created in collaboration to help demystify different career paths for both current students and early career alumni. Tonight's panel highlights animation and the multiple career pathways available to animators. This panel is being recorded and will be available to watch afterwards on the leeway.ca under resources. The leeway is the social and professional networking site accessible to all Emily Carr University community members. Students who sign up for the platform between now and the end of reading week will be entered to win an Opus gift card. At the end of the series, all episodes will be available on both arts work, which is the student and alumni job board, as well as the alumni website at ecua.ca. I'm delighted to introduce Shannon McKinnon, Director of Career Development and Work Integrated Learning. The Career Development and Work Integrated Learning office works with alumni and students to assist them with their professional development through one-on-one advising sessions and co-curricular activities. Shannon will be monitoring tonight's panel and introducing our panelists. Over to you, Shannon. Thanks, Sara. That was a lovely introduction. So, and I'd like to thank all of you for joining us tonight. This evening we have an amazing panel comprised of animation alumni here to talk about their career pathways and professional journeys. But before we start, I'd like, I'd like to just find out who actually is going to be watching this and so we've put together a panel of surveys. So if you don't mind taking a minute just to fill that out. So we just want to know what who our audience is comprised of, whether you're students, alumni or faculty. Okay, that's awesome. So it looks like we have 20 students here, three faculty and three alumni. Great. Okay, so alumni start talking about your career pathways then. Oh, all right. So, um, so here's I'm going to go over generally what the format of tonight's panel is going to be to give you an idea of what to expect. So we're going to take a few moments for each of the panelists to briefly introduce themselves and tell us what year they graduated. And if you would like more information about this in the evenings, if you want to ask more questions or anything like that. Also, Sarah will be putting up a link to their bios in the chat. So after that we're going to this is going to be followed by a series of topics for discussion. And then lastly, we're going to have breakout rooms so that you'll have an opportunity to talk to the different panelists one on one and to ask some questions. So, great, I'm just going to jump right in here. So tonight's panelists are Christopher Octor, Ren Bud, and Alicia Steinberger. And we might have Stephanie Blakely joining us later, but we'll see. I'm going to jump right in with the questions. The first question I'm going to put to Alicia because Alicia and and then we can just go through for each of you. So please share an introduction to your current work. So talk about your current work or projects that you're working on or things that you're proud of and that your recent achievements. Thank you so much. So I'm Alicia. I graduated in 2019 from the animation department. And since then I've been working in VFX. So in at Scanline and now at Bronn Studios. And at Bronn we're currently working on a full CG show that is based on ASAPs fable so it has a lot of creature and character animation which is really fun and super cute. And I'm also super excited about my personal project. So I'm actually working together with my friend Robin. She graduated from illustration also from Emily Carr at 2019 as well. And she is directing a documentary around little oink bank pig sanctuary so they're a farm animal sanctuary here in BC and they mostly rescue farm animals, but like also have goats and hens and all those kind of animals and it's just really, I'm just super excited to use my help tell stories and maybe share information that maybe most people don't really know about. It's just very exciting for me. That's great. Thank you. Thank you. And let me go through Ren, you're next. I'm Ren Bud. I graduated 2015 from the animation department. I am a 2D animator and TV at atomic cartoons right now. I started out actually wanting to do storyboards and then not like it when I actually got a storyboard job. So I ended up switching over and applying for animation jobs I first got a job at global mechanic doing a web internet series called reference man media genius. And then from there got on to atomic cartoons on a show called cupcake and dino. And then after that, I was on the first season of Molly of Denali, and now I'm on my third show at atomic, which is called trolls trolls topia, and it's connected to the 3D movies but it's a 2D show. And that one. It's actually airing right now on YTV here, and then Hulu in the States and peacock, I think. Given that I'm really proud of me and my friend last year pitched a show to the studio. And that was a really fun process. We got like, there's a really great pitching program in atomic because they're wanting to hear like about in house talent to try to like produce shows that way. And then we got to like, we put together all the characters and made a whole pitch package and then got to pitch it to the development team and it didn't go through but it was still really fun to do the pitch and I've already started working on a second pitch because it's, it's a fun process. Great. And then Christopher Octor. So we have to go all the way back to 2002. Welcome. So that in that time, Martin was still keeping us on the shooting under film and, but we were making the big transition to computer animation and, yeah, and still doing traditional animation. I've been around a fair bit, but I think I, in terms of reaching goals that I set for myself coming out of school. I'm starting to hit them now. Such as doing projects with the National Film Board like the mountain of scana, which is my first short animation that I directed. The next step was actually something that came out of the blue it was, it was doing a documentary a short documentary and that was called now is the time. And it was from a time 50 years ago, when the high two people. We hadn't been doing our carvings we have been doing our totem poles and this was the first total pole carved and raised in 100 years in a century. And they had all this beautiful footage that they captured 50 years ago in 1969. But at the time it was, it wasn't an indigenous director that that did it it was an indigenous person that got the crew there but this had a woman Barbara Wilson didn't get to make the decisions on how the film was going to end up. So she saw 50 years later and she didn't like it so she asked the NFP can we do something about it. And the NFP said yes we could do a new film and I just finished the mountain scana so they asked me if I would be willing to give, give it a shot and you know I hadn't done. I hadn't done live action before but I saw the footage and the stories of story and this one really intrigued me it was part of my history that I didn't know. And it gave me a chance to really discover it and learn it and now it's really kind of set me off on a little bit of a different trajectory in terms of what I'm focusing on like right now I'm in development on my first film it's your doc, but just because it's a doc it doesn't mean that you don't like I'm still incorporating animation and you bring those kind of instincts to to the filmmaking process and in a way you know maybe you could create something that's a little bit more unique or just something that's a little bit different so yeah. That's amazing thanks for sharing with us. Yeah. Next question. I guess we'll just keep rotating the way we are. So, Alicia. What experiences have had the most impact on your artistic and professional development. So I think for me, a lot of the people around me have inspired me a lot. So while I was in university of my friends from university, we all inspired each other I think. Like stylistically but also, like our passion for animation grew kind of together, but also after leaving university. What motivated me more was finding something that I was some a subject that I was very passionate about. So obviously I love animation and combining it with something, some stories that I really want to tell and to share with the audience as well really drives me to make better and more impactful animated shorts or or like just little scenes. For me specifically it's to try to give a voice to the voiceless I guess, or to share unseen things by the public. Animal agriculture and how a lot of cruelty goes on in there and stuff I just want to share it so that people can potentially be more compassionate and just in general like it just motivates me to continue with animation and grow and then hopefully one day I could potentially do some big projects to share stories that'd be very fun. That's great. Thanks. Thank you. Ren. What experiences have had the most impact on your artistic and professional development. I think like in childhood it was media that I would consume and consume and excessively, you know, like the Disney films and Pokemon Digimon all the cartoons Saturday morning cartoons growing up and that's kind of what drove me into animation but then very similar to Alicia. When you get into school and you meet people who are so like minded and you get to know everybody else's art style and just like being in a creative community around other creative people just kind of like you want to play in that space with them and like get even getting into the industry, most of my friends are all people now from like from either work or funny enough, a lot of them are Emily card grabs but just other years for me. There's something about Emily card grabs. They all like find each other one way or another. And so yeah just like some of the best people I've met who make me want to get better so that I can, you know, we can all like share ideas and share our art together and Jeff gets inspired and like the thing about being on animation team is, it's a team effort a show can't get made on one person alone like our tour series dead when it comes to kids TV. You can't just one person do the whole thing. So it's like this great feeling of everybody together working and you want to be good at what you do so that you're not being a hindrance on anybody else and that you know you're all working together for that goal and so you're like seeing other people's animation when you're doing your shots because you're going in like you can look at other people's shots in an episode and be like, Oh wow that guy did that run cycle really well how did he do that and and just like frame by frame by frame by frame and go. Okay, like there's the bounce switch there's the overlap there's secondary movement, all that stuff and it just makes you want to be better. So yeah I'd say that people around me. And Chris. I think the biggest influence on me in terms of and I guess experience building is with filmmaker series creator Loretta Todd. She's done a lot of series work for a PTN Aboriginal television people's network, and she's since put out her first feature film. And so I started having a relationship with her early on in terms of getting on with her series and that's been that's been the biggest one because she would have this little segment in your series would be like she needed like a one minute animated short. Maybe two minutes. And, you know, at first it was just do the one for the one season and then she got another another season she asked me for two and then it was start ballooning one one year I think I did eight or something like that. And all together there must have been both 24 of these short animated films that I did for her, and they were great because I mean the budget was was so minuscule, but the takeaway was that you would get these stories and it was up to me to come up with the style and the backgrounds do everything in terms of the the animation, and you do it is kind of kind of quite quickly but you would make mistakes. I would make mistakes, but I would also get Oh that really worked and that looked good and it was just a slow build up of what worked what doesn't do do a little more this okay maybe stay away from that a little bit or work on that a little bit and then it really helped me and so it all that kind of let up plus all the studio work and stuff that I combined to do, and all that clay all that stuff piled on kind of helped me when I made the Mount Muscona, and then, you know, now kind of as I go along create more these these films that I'm doing so yeah it that was the biggest thing for me was having all this this experimenting and practicing on these short little films to kind of yeah, hold my craft, I guess. That's great. Well, I'm just going to stick with you Christopher okay since we're there. I'm here with you so I'm going to this next question is for you and then we'll just rotated it through again. So, what is the best practical advice you would give to someone starting out, or alternatively, what is the best piece of advice you receive that you can pass on. I think in terms of first starting out I do feel I had a bit of a slow start. And I think it was because of myself I had this view this dream I guess in my head because I remember before I went family car. I was at high school and I knew I wanted to do animation. And I would hear these stories oh this this young person got picked up and went straight to Disney and stuff like that so I had this dream in my head that that was going to happen to me. And so I, as nice of a dream is that is I think it's important to kind to pursue it yourself and make it happen yourself don't wait for someone to cut to wait for that phone call that someone saw your work from somewhere. I wanted it just just be as persistent as possible. Once I realized that wasn't going to happen and I really need to kind of shuffle and move and I harassed this this one studio. I remember being up in white horse playing at the all native ice hockey tournament up there, and I was calling from pay phone like every, I was actually stuck up there because my truck got lost its transmission and they had to get trucked in from California so I was there for two or three weeks more than I thought I would be. I was calling every every other day this this this this producer and you know do you have anything for me can I and she and I just wore her down and then by the time it was time for me come back she said okay you could come in. And, you know, well, you could do some cleanup animation, and this was on paper, and it was Dexter's laboratory which was really cool. And I lasted two days long, I couldn't do it like I prided myself on being this this drawer, but I just couldn't do my hands are shaking I was going through all their paper. And she's like, I'm sorry it's just not going to work and you know that could have been the end of my career right there. But I guess there's that that whole thing about persistence and I guess knowing that yourself okay that just wasn't for me that was just, you know, a little hiccup in the road and just keep keep keep going. And those chances that other opportunities will come, and your teachers are the ones that I found kind of gave me the most kind of little little help little push and stuff Marilyn Trenco she she got me my first job at the National Film Board on just doing some development for a project called now. How people got fire, and yeah so that was my, my, my, my little entry into the NFP, and then went on to other things, but I found teachers become you know you're a big help and people that you could kind of turn to I guess and yeah so be nice to your teachers. You have pretty good faculty and animation that's for sure so. Ren. I didn't say best practical advice I could give you is networking and that the everybody says that everybody hates that answer, but networking was in your own peer group is what I'd probably suggest actually because the most way that I've gotten jobs have been through people I know who are in the same peer group as me and not like, because I remember being in school and people going network network network and you're like and going to spark and seeing people there with their portfolios and you know the higher ups that spark and you could see like you bring them there your portfolio and they'd be like not the time not not the moment, don't do it like that. So it was always like that. But then yeah, through actually in practice, I have this one friend, Natty. And we just keep ping-ponging back between each other, like recommending each other for jobs because like my first freelance gig was one that she was over in Kelowna at the time and couldn't take so they she passed it along to me. And then I started doing some animation in between for a teacher I had, Hillary, because she had a short film and I was having troubles right at the start getting like studio work work, like steady like that. I was just doing like in between for her film. And it also it helped a lot with getting like mentally figuring out oh I like animation more than storyboarding, even though I should have figured that out during school, but I didn't. And through that she my friend Natty she was wanting to come back from Kelowna she didn't like it up in Kelowna. And so I, you know, was talking to Hillary, because it was just the two of us and this really small little studio inside of her house at the time and she's like oh I need a compositor, can Natty do compositing and so I'm like Natty can you do compositing and she's like yes. So then I got Natty a job on that short film, and then when that short film was done, Natty got a job at Globe Mechanic first before me, and they were asking her, you know, any more animators we need more people, and that's how I got there. And then after that was about a six month contract on that. I met some more Emily Cargrads I met Sebastian and Chloe, and oh and Kristen and such. There was actually a lot of Emily Cargrads and that is a very short small production it was like 12 or so people maybe a bit more, but it was very small but the people I met there I'm still friends with to this day they were, they were great they were so talented. And then after that six months production finished up, Chloe went off to Atomic, and she got on Cup and Dino first, and then they were asking her, do you know any more people, and that's how I got over on Cup and Dino. Being in a studio helps a lot because once you're in the studio you get to know your coworkers you get to know more people you can talk to the people around you and find out oh which shows they're crewing up when because that's the big thing with in the studio is like finding when the shows are growing up because they're not going to over production as much, then like there's a big push when something is ramping up that the producers and coordinator they're all just like, get all the people on the show. So, through being on there are they able to go from Cup and Dino on to Molly, but then my coordinator was producing on another show at Atomic. And she was looking for people and Natty was at a different studio but it was more of an independent studio and she wanted to get into the commercial industry and try that out for a while. So I was able to be like, oh hey I know this great compositor. And so, then she got interviewed there so she got into Atomic, and then she got put on trolls first, and I was still on Molly. And then when Molly was finishing up it was in that weird period of time where shows weren't crewing. So, a little bit of a panic, and then talk to Natty and they're like, oh no there's there's a spot open on trolls. I'll get you in touch with the producer here. So, that's actually what I would really say focus on is focus on your networking within your, your own smaller group within your peers. Yeah. That's good. That's good advice. Alicia, so tell us what's the best practical advice that you would give someone starting out or that you have received yourself. I think there isn't that much to add to what Christopher and Ren said, they pretty much covered it all. I guess I just say like, if you don't, or don't have like unrealistic expectations of yourself, because, because if you don't hit those it doesn't mean you have failed in any way. It just means that it's a very difficult industry, and it's hard to break into. So just keep trying. And once you break in it will a lot easier because as Ren said the first job is the hardest one to get but once you're in once you know some people, it'll get much easier. And I think you guys just covered it all. Well, since your answer was so short, I'm just going to keep mixing this up. Yeah, to answer the next one too. So how did you first game in this, this leads into this so how did you first gain attention of industry studios. And how is this methods changed over time for you. Yeah, so I was actually super lucky. Shelly she was a student in my graduation class. She actually worked in the industry for a long time and then came back just to finish her degree. And then I guess she saw that I was hardworking and that I was open to critique and improving my skills through feedback and stuff. But I'd be a good fit in her team at scanline so she actually recommended me to scanline before we graduated. I got my interview and then I got in which is amazing so I think I was super super lucky and of course this won't happen to everyone because not everyone's going to have someone come back to school was already in the industry. But I think, like Christopher said, our instructors, they know a lot of people, and they're able to push you into the right direction, or to talk to the right people to help you you know here and there. And I think it's super helpful to, in the very beginning just to grab on to whatever you can kind of get, because, as I said it's really hard to break into the industry but once you're in, it'll be okay. And I think because I started off at a very nice studio with amazing people, I got to meet a lot of great artists and animators, and I became friends with a lot of them. And here's where networking comes in. And I think networking isn't so much like a formal thing where you're like, oh look at my stuff you know this is them. And it's not like sucking up to people it's more like just being yourself and showing people what you're interested in, and just kind of being friends, you don't have to be friends with your coworkers but just, I guess, being a good co-worker being easy to work with that'll show other people who might be looking for who might be looking for artists that you would be a good fit in their team. So I've never really applied to any studios but always been referred. So, it's much easier when you know a few people to get around in the industry if that makes sense. Yeah, but you're also saying to that you created a good reputation for yourself and how you work, and you know that you're with. Exactly, yeah. Yeah, and I think it's just good to be yourself but also to do your best or do your best efforts and then I think one great thing that I like to do, which I think a lot of my friends also like to do is to keep working on your own personal projects at home. If you want to it's not necessary but it just helps you show people at work like what you're interested in and maybe get more of the jobs that you prefer doing so if you're more interested in creature animation they'll see that oh you actually do very good creature animation so they'll put you in those jobs instead of, you know, if you're not so interested in digital work maybe. Yeah, yeah. Okay, great thank you. Christopher, so I know that you've said that you feel like you were a bit of a slow step that it was a slow start for you but you know how did you first gain attention of the industry or studios for you are now or you know what was kind of a pivot for you in your career with that and how was that method changed for you. Yeah, well it wasn't I mean when I came out of school to it was it was a bit of the great transition in terms of animation from, from, from hand drawn 2D to 3D 3D was taking off and everyone was pivoting and turning to 3D, and I put all my eggs in the basket of 2D I mean I love drawing, and that's where I did my, my, my grad film on. So, but if I just listened to Leslie a little bit more in our classes. So I, I felt that I needed, I needed to upgrade my, my, my animation my, my 3D skills because that's where the industry is going so I actually applied to, to shared in their computer animation program there. Of course I applied and then Marilyn knocked on my door was he knocked on my door she she called me or maybe and said you know that she working on project at the National Film Board if I wanted to help do the some development work. So I did that man that was for about a couple of a couple months and then I, in between I had heard from shared in that I that I was accepted. So I told them the producer at the NFB and he spend Eric's and, and he said well you know that it still takes a little bit for us to get our, our green light and and and whatnot so yeah go off to school to your program. And I did and, and while I was at shared and doing my EA electronic arts they had this, this competition come up I saw it on the message board and it was like for all schools across Canada. You submit your grad film and it was the great Canadian art competition and I submitted my film and select mover with EA's you know and EA's dime got put up at the Pam Pacific and. Yeah, and that so that was my, that was my, my foot into the door at the studios and I was offered a job at electronic arts from my grad film and. Yeah, so it was like the NFB and and EA both at the same time but I had to it was through the grad film and and yeah that's how I got my foot in the door. Okay, sorry, Ren. I feel like I already answered this question. You know if you there's anything you want to add or we can move on to the next one if you want to. I just say like demo real is still really important. That's the only thing I'd really add like, because in with the jobs that I did get. It was never just the person going, Oh, this is my friend. It was always like, Oh, here's a name I recommend check out her stuff. We, I still had to back that up with a demo real that was good enough to be on the show. So, yeah, I'd say like. And with the demo real, you really want to focus in on. One particular aspect for the job you're looking at you don't want to just put a general, like everything demo real, because the industry has broken down so much into like, you're going in for that one job. So, so resume like the same as a resume or when you do an important folio is the same idea where you're tailoring it for that specific job. Yeah, because I didn't know what I want to do. Originally, I had an idea and I thought it was actually going to be storyboards I came out of school I think Lorela and Martin will remember that I just like my whole thing was like I'm going to be a storyboarder that's what I'm going to do. And actually, like the first one, the first job I got when doing storyboarding was through Martin. And it was at the NFB, it was working on a documentary doing the storyboards for the live action sequences. And it was a great opportunity like I am so thankful for that opportunity it was so much fun to like actually work at the NFB, but it showed like at that I was like, Oh, taking a script and interpreting it from scratch isn't actually where my four days lying isn't where I'm finding the enjoyment in in my job. I still like to do like comics on the side but that wasn't where I found that enjoyment. And then like coming out of school and going into a career path that is like, I think this is what I want, but then getting there and being like no I don't actually want to be here. It's not the end of the world because with Emily Carr you get like a great set of many different skill sets that you can then refocus and like think about and be like, Oh, I want to do slot for me it was, I want to do to the animation. You heard the whole long winded thing about going from the studio studio studio studio. Yeah, but thank you. And that's good. And thanks for sharing that advice about the portfolio so that's great. Okay, so Alicia. What has helped you to get where you are. And what advice would you have for others who want to follow a similar path now I feel like we kind of we are answer some of these questions might be repetitive but if, you know, what advice would you be, would you give to somebody that wants to follow a similar similar path to you. Um, so I think working hard and smart is definitely important, but also not underselling yourself if that makes sense so definitely keep track of your hours, you can work eight hours very hard and then take the rest of the day off. And don't, you know, work 12 hours a day. Because you don't want to sell yourself for 12 hours every single day, if that's not what you want to do. If that makes any sense. Make sure that you're being paid by the hour, I guess, or per project it might vary. But just make sure that you, you yourself are happy with what you're doing and what you're doing in return for your work, because I think that's very important. And also, probably just to, like I said earlier, kind of keep up with your personal projects, if you're interested in doing that because it'll help show if the more personal projects you make, which are things that you're probably interested in, the more others will see that you're really good at this. And they'll give you more job opportunities in specific areas that you are more interested in. Because your first job in the industry might not be your dream job, but that's okay because once they see what you're interested in what you're good at, then your dream job might come along the way. So just stick to it. And like Ren, if your first job isn't what you want to do, that is completely fine. There's nothing wrong with that. And of course, there's always, you can always change your path. And especially once you get into the industry, it's a little bit easier to kind of switch over to something else. So I actually started it. Even though my dream job was action, but it was just a great way to get in. And then after I was in after three months, I asked if I could switch to animation, and I showed them some of my personal projects just to show like, I can also do animation. And then so they were totally fine with it. And that's how I got the animation job. And since then I've been moving more towards what I love to do, which is creature animation. So yeah, that's about it. I love that all of you have talked about that how you started off kind of on one track and then you moved in another direction. And I think that's really exciting. And I think it's really good for students to hear that that, you know, just because you've decided on one thing it doesn't mean you have to stick with that, you know, to stay open and that's great. Oh, there's a question here. Here's a question. Alicia and Chris have both span 2D and 3D. There is a myth that there are more 3D jobs and 3D is career path. What is the perception of 2D and 3D opportunities? Where is the demand? Okay, and so this is from Leslie. Bishko, you're old prof. Yay. So Christopher. Yeah, sure. Well, I find that the industry keeps kind of bouncing around like it'll go 3D for a while and then 2D like there. There seems to be a really different pattern for us. So I think you could, whether your, your, your passion is 3D or 2D or both, you want to learn the both then you can bounce around the two places like Wild Brain, which I was just at recently. So, you know, there are both 3D projects and 2D projects and just before my contract ended, we had, there was a town hall meeting and there, the big boss at Wild Brain was saying, you know, if you're doing 2D right now, please keep doing 2D because we need the 2D people like 2D projects, they're finding it hard to find harmony, tomb boom, harmony animators and such. And so they're telling us that if that's what you're doing, please keep doing it or what. So I think if you're, if you're worried that, you know, like you love 2D and there's not enough 2D jobs like, you know, that was recent, that was just a month and a half ago that I heard that. Yeah, I think that you'll find there's the industry is big enough now for both like it doesn't seem to be one of the other. And even the video games seem to be going like a 2D back to 2D as well with some of their side scrollers and whatnot. So, yeah, there's there's there's lots of work out there for both, for both sides, I've been finding. That's great. Do you have anything to add to that, Alicia? I think Christopher covered most of it. And I think like to add on to it like maybe location also matters. So here in Vancouver, there might be more feature 3D films versus feature 2D films, but in Spain, for example, there's many feature 2D films that are coming out. In, in Asia, there's tons of 3D and 2D feature films, if feature is what you want to do, but in TV series, obviously there is tons of work here in Vancouver, like DHX and Atomic. So I think there, it's, and like we're also moving between 3D and 2D a lot because of what people want to see. And sometimes, you know, there was a big boom in 3D, like, it's still happening, but a lot of people want to go back and watch, you know, 2D stuff and it's kind of nostalgic sometimes or like it's just, it's, it's easy on the eyes. So there's a big demand now again for 2D animation. So I think it kind of fluctuates, like Christopher says. And also, if you have 2D skills, it's a huge benefit, even as a 3D animator, because in both my jobs as a 3D animator, I've actually gotten a lot of like special projects from the company because they know I know how to do 2D animation and to know how to use the programs like Toon Boom harmony. And they've given me a lot of their pre, or like their blocking stage drawings and stuff just to block out like how they want the hair to flow or doing character design for this or poses so that they can model the rigs after it. So it's, it's super fun when they know that you can do 2D and 3D so they can integrate that into the workflow. So as a 3D as a 2D artist that might be helpful in some way as well so I think it's not a competition between 2D and 3D, I think, because there's, as Chris says, there's a lot of jobs out there for both. Okay, thank you so much. So it looks like Stephanie has joined us which is great. Hi, Stephanie, are you there. Hi, apologies I got held up a little bit at work. Okay, well we're glad that you're here. Before we move on I'm going to let you give a quick work on a midway through this. But it would be great if you could give us a quick introduction about your current work. And, and yeah and what kind of projects, any projects that you're proud of or you're feeling, you know, you want to share with us. Hi, so my name is Stephanie Blakey. And I'm a graduate of the Emily Carr animation program from 2010. I started out as a freelance animator and freelance director, working with clients but currently, I am a storyboard supervisor working at atomic cartoons here in Vancouver, where I started in I think, 2016 as a storyboard artist on my first gig in Dino, which is on Netflix and was a ton of fun like a really, really lucky show to work on first. Then I worked on The Last Kids on Earth, which is also a Netflix which is completely different and I learned a ton of new things on it. I made a short film after that the butterfly affect with women in animation and women in, women in view Vancouver over the last, I think it was two years ago we started it and that is currently on its festival run winning a few awards there, which is great. So keep working on your, you know, on your personal work as well as your day job. And now, yeah, like I said before, I'm a storyboard supervisor at atomic for the last year and a half I think until kind of the end of this summertime. Okay, so I'm going to ask you one question quickly that we kind of we're like halfway through the questions but I'm going to ask one that I think that I'd love to get your feedback on. What was the best piece best practical advice you could give to someone starting out and alternatively or alternatively was the best piece of advice you received that you can pass on. So Stephanie, if you can do that and then we're going to get back to our regularly scheduled questions okay. Sure thing. Can I talk specifically to storyboarding you. Yeah, you tell us what, you know, tell us your story. Watch films, watch films, watch live action watch animation to find out how they work. A lot of people come into storyboards thinking it's like comic books, and it is similar in some ways, but vastly different and others so a lot of the kind of notes that I give to junior artists is to stop approaching like the comic book and approach it more like speaking film language. So you don't want to skip poses you don't skip acting it's a lot it's broken down a lot more. But you also need to understand cinematography choreography acting being a storyboard artist is being an actor. So watch a ton of different shows different, you know, again live action animation anything. Find out what works about them find out what you like about them what you don't and kind of learn from that too. And if people give you notes, don't take them personally take them as an opportunity to learn and get better at your work. That's great because that goes right into our next regularly scheduled programming question here, which is, and because we are curious about this, especially with working for your services. And also because of the university and that it's a critique based university so do you still access so this is for you run because you I'd like to I'd like to ask this question of you. Do you still access or engage in pure and community critique style feedback and since leaving the university. And if so how is this shaped your practice, like do you still engage in it and does it assist you and now is it helped you so. Yeah, it's a lot less formal now because it's a lot of just like the people you work with become your friends become who you want to share your art with and get feedback with. You know, like when I am doing just like animation on my own. I'll just, I have a discord group with a couple friends they're all in the industry because just the people you know and being people in the industry, and the like comment be like, oh that that part's really nice. Oh, this part, you know. I like like tried this more and so it's a lot less formal it's not like I'm going to a place to get that critique it's a lot of just like searching it out through people you know and like a less formal aspect. I guess the other thing about it would also be just like when you're at work, you're getting a lot of feedback like what Stephanie mentioned about your notes and getting feedback you can't have an ego with in the animation industry. I mean you can but it won't be helpful. Because you're going to get drawers and notes and your supervisor is going to comment on what you do because we're all just trying to get to the same ending and make it the best that it can possibly be. So you're always learning you you're never done learning that like I went into the industry not even knowing how to work the puppets that we do with to do because every a lot of things. You can get hand drawn to these shows there are still know that there but a lot of it is these harmony rigs and I didn't know much about harmony rigs going in. Like, I was learning on the job, and I was learning from the people around me it's so easy when you're right now it's a little different role in our homes. But when you're in the studio just be able to like turn to the person next to you go like, how do you do this one thing. And they can like, pop over and be like, Oh, is this key saying and you're like, Oh, wow, that took me five minutes to ask the person next to me versus, you know, like, spending hours online like looking for the right tutorial and finding something completely different. And then getting distracted by you. And there, there's two types there's like informal friends, and then there's like, there's still the structural like your supervisor and the people in your job giving you feedback and just like don't have any go about it. Because also that makes you a nicer person. That's great. Same question Christopher. Okay. Yes, they, they, they still come up and especially when you're making a film, there'll be those sessions where it's time to show people the film and you're going to hear, you know, thoughts and you know there might be it might be specific there might be a general section where they didn't get. You know, like on the mountain of scana. Because it was a silent film in terms of no, no speaking in terms of I would get a lot of those comments back from producer from Montreal and, and you know, I don't get that at all and sometimes it would be, you know, there could be some frustration and it's not in the comment it's in the fact that you're not that I wasn't able to communicate what I'm trying to communicate so you have to find in there. What it is there that's the hiccup or that they're they're tripping up on. And you're not going to them for okay like how how do I solve this because you're the director you're the one that's telling the story. So you just go in and you think about it and you figure out how you can more clearly tell the story that you're trying to tell. Because it's got to come through you if you if you try to do a film by committee in terms of from the director position. It's going to be muddy it's not going to come out the way I think that you go in trying to make the film. He said this about carving his totem pole he says I don't think two people can create a totem pole. You need one person to design it and the other to to follow. And it's the same way with with directing a film. You got to find those answers you can ask for advice and you can ask all these questions but it's got to come through you in the end it's got to come through your filter in the end, in terms of directing a film. And yeah so I hope that helps in terms of but that's in terms of the peer feedback critiques. And know that you know if if it's if it's nitpicky if you feel like it's a nitpicky thing like the. I'll give another example, if you'll permit. And now is the time it was a live action documentary but I had I had animation elements in it. And there's this one point where the artist Robert Davidson is in his studio he's carving alone, and I had this small totem pole that he had carved, and it animates across the desk like it's alive like it wants to see what he's creating. And some people didn't get it and and and while this totem pole is coming across he he's hearing his grandma's voice and she's saying, Hey Robert, are you still carving and stuff and this was some archival footage archival audio and it was you know that voice of his grandma still still talking to him and his work is alive and is kind of this this this moment of artistic, you know, realism, surrealism. Some people didn't get it and so I get those comments I'm not really getting that but you know you kind of stick with it. And if you really feel strong about that that that one thing, or those those those those those moments and you know that's that's kind of the thing that I'll hear most often is is that people like those moments it's got it adds the charm that the kind of this this difference to this film and the style of the film and how it's it's it's told. So, what I'm trying to say is you, you, you listen, and but you still bring it through your filter. I hope that helps. For sure, of course. So, Alicia, what do you think are the biggest challenge for animators at the moment. I think these days animation is more competitive than it might have been just because of the amount of information we're exposed to now with with YouTube and everyone has a computer at home. The software has been it's been getting better so you can make things at home by yourself. So a lot more people I think are doing animation. So it might be more competitive. But I think this the that just means that there's more studios now opening up as well that are making more shows and more movies. And I think it's kind of like finding out what specifically you want to do what direction you want to go in and then trying to get your first job there. And even if you don't want to work in the industry, you can, you can do personal projects, or try to get grants for your own films. The industry is not the only way to work in animation. And I think I'm not the best person to talk about this because I've never gotten a grant or anything. But I do know that many people prefer to not work in the industry but pursue their own personal projects and goals to tell their own stories, obviously, which I think is really amazing. So I think it's finding out what you want to do, and then trying to work towards that I think would be the biggest challenge. Yeah. The comments I was making was I guess, if you're the director but if you're in the studio working as an animator. It is important to to, you know, listen to your supervisor if they want you to make that change just make the change like don't don't make a big fuss about it. And also gauging the situation there are times when you're working within the industry when you have when you've made a choice about something sometimes it's okay to say well I made this choice because and it'll give you a chance for your supervisor or the maybe it's the director or the animation supervisor that to say oh I didn't realize that that's actually a good idea let's go with that there there are those opportunities as well for your voice to kind of come in and and you know that's happened before on on on projects where you know you have these ideas and and you could have them kind of incorporated but for the most part yeah like don't don't make a big deal about changes and stuff like if you're animating and supervisor says you should change we need it to be be done this way because of this then yeah. Also, I just want to note to everyone that there's links in the chat that Leslie has posted of for two films. Okay. Thanks so much. Leslie. So, where are we here. Okay. And, friend, do you have anything to say about what the biggest challenge for animators at the moment is a proof. I think the biggest challenge I've noticed between like my friends and people I know in the industry is lining up contracts because everything is contract based you're very rarely are going to be offered a full time position like it does happen there are studios out there they tend to be smaller studios who do do full time work. But most things you're going to come across are all going to be contract based and lining up those contracts so that when one ends. Another one is starting is so difficult. And sometimes it just works out. Sometimes there just happens to be that out there and you can fall from one to the other. But I've never had an easy transfer between shows it's always been wearing up till the minute about where I'm going to be come a couple months and then like my Molly contract. I signed the last week on cup and dino. It was it was the very last week. I feel like between Molly and trolls, there was a little bit more time, but it was only about a month. It was only about months. And I had been searching like starting to put out feel earth about where I can go after Molly was done for about like three months at that point So that would be what I would say is like a large challenge because I knew a lot of people who were out of work right as the pandemic was starting, not because there wasn't work in the industry out there. There was it was just going to be a couple months. It was trying to line that up so because there was just a couple shows that were all ending around the same time. So, even if it seems like there is nothing out there like you're putting out all your demo reels and you're applying for everything and you feel like there's nothing out there way a couple months, there will be something out there. There are always going to be crewing up somewhere but yeah it's just that trying to line everything up so that it's it's seamless that is so difficult. Yeah, I don't think life is like that so I can understand. Stephanie. What do you see is the biggest challenge for animators at the moment. Can I talk specifically again about storyboarders. You absolutely. Cool. So yeah like like what Ren is saying it's a little trickier now in the pandemic, but I will say, I have hired multiple storyboard artists during this time on my project, who I have never met in person in real life and who also don't even live in Vancouver. I've worked with people in Toronto and have just spoken to them kind of on zoom or other video kind of calls. Something though that I will say if anyone is interested in getting into boards, especially right now is just keep working, keep working on it keep working on your boards keep improving them. Learn film language stay away from comics show your work to your friends show your work to your enemies like get feedback on it, and make it as best as it can be, because I'm going through tons and tons and tons of applications and I can see the hunger in it I can see the passion in it but you know this is also a business and we need to get work done quickly and we need to get it done well. So we're also looking for a kind of a specific level of of experience or talent. Maybe you've never worked in boards before but you have a really keen eye for how to do it like that's great to. And of course you're always going to be learning on the job to but just keep keep working on things keep making them and keep improving. Don't be afraid to apply again. There are you know folks who I may have turned down before who will hand in something else and I'll see an improvement and that'll be great so don't give up if you don't get the job the first time. Don't give up just keep improving your work and keep showing it to people. That's great advice. On that note. How has the animation field evolved and what advice do you have. I'm going to stick with you Stephanie. Sure. Okay. How the animation field is evolved. Well, I mean definitely right now we're all working from home is probably the biggest current evolution. But what that means is, like what again what Ren was saying before we don't really have the luxury of just turning around in your seat and talking to the person next to you about what's going on, you need to be good at communicating. Like I know a lot of us artists are maybe, you know, or quiet or introverted or you, you know, oh I don't want to bother you I don't want to, I don't want to kind of annoy you with my questions. No please please please please annoy us with your questions bother us it's totally cool because that's the only way that you'll get things right. And I'm trying my best to normalize that on my team to any, you know anytime you need to talk to someone just talk to someone it's okay like admitting you need help is not an admittance of failure. It's more like you, you realize that you need to improve here or you're not, even if it's just you're not sure how to use software or you're not sure if the shot works anything like you know I probably can't give you lunch advice. But you know just don't be afraid to talk to people you need to be able to communicate clearly and efficiently. And if the answers that you're getting back, you don't understand. You don't understand that, you know, like if someone gives me this big fancy answer, and it's just going in when you're out the next don't be like, Oh, okay, cool I'll go do that. Now, and then you head back to your desk and you just cry on your keyboard. That's not going to help get the work done and you're not going to learn, you could say the I'm sorry like, you know I don't know what a smear is or whatever it is that the person is just ask for clarification it's totally cool like I'm here as a supervisor to make sure that you guys do a good job and get better and become more confident and then I can hands off you guys but until you know you're super pros. Communicate communicate communicate absolutely, especially right now when we're not working together. Yeah, that's great advice. Christopher. Yeah, how's it evolved well it just I mean, been around a while now and just see the the software and stuff kind of keeps keeps keeps there's something new and so it could feel a little bit daunting turned to trying to catch up to it but I guess if you, you just kind of poke around that's not so bad you kind of notice like it, I guess in the end, they are just tools created to help us create animation and you know, visuals. So, if you just view them like that, I think it becomes less scary like these, they're made with good intentions, they're supposed to be made for the artist to help create so yeah even if things keep changing in terms of software. But it's, we, we got brains and it's we've learned them before we could learn this new thing. That's good advice to and as you were saying you started off in 2D and then you switched over to 3D and you've gone back and forth and now you're in film so I mean you continue to evolve. Yeah, great, which is great it's really exciting. I'm really mindful of the time because I'm sure that students would like to go into the breakout rooms and speak with you directly. So I'm just going to get to the last question here. Is there anything that we've missed that you'd like to touch on and I'm going to leave it open to you to jump in. Well, I'll jump in. I think if I think proposals are important you got to, there's some point you're going to, if you want to get some money to create your own films, or your own art you're going to, you're going to need to do a proposal you need to do a budget. So this, you know, it's not going to be great the first time probably so but it's like anything you do proposal a few times you get a little bit better at it and that's just something you know, you know, whether you're approaching the NFB or the Canada Council BC Arts Council. They usually require something in terms of what are your ideas, especially Canada Council BC Arts Council budget and how are you going to just a plan and stuff like that and they're not scary things. They're usually questions that list out you just answer the questions and yeah. We're in our office we're always willing to help you to if you have an application for a grant. pending we're happy to take a look at it before you submit it just to make sure that you know, you hear your teaser cross your eyes are dotted and so we're here for you as well so any other. Absolutely, actually. Yeah, come see me. I'm the alumni. So, did you want to jump in and say anything else any other anything else you think we may have missed. Can I give something. Yeah, yeah, cool. I think you may have talked about just a little bit earlier, but it was about critique and criticism and getting notes back and not taking it personally. Sometimes when you're working kind of in the machine at a company, there will be times that you get notes or suggestions that come back that you completely don't like maybe not on like an ethical or moral level but on a more story or directorial level, and you don't want to do them, but get over it. You are not the director, unless you are the director on whatever project, you're not the director. But what you're providing is bad. It's just that what you're providing doesn't align with the director's vision. And ultimately, that person was hired for that role for their vision. So, yeah, okay you might not have been able to put that joke in, but that joke still exists put it in your pocket use it on a personal project later. It's okay, it'll be okay there'll be more work later you can do your own projects, but just you know be cool about notes. They're not, they're not an attacking it. Alicia or run. I just more picking backing off of what Stephanie was saying was like, we're all trying to get to the same outcome where it's all a team effort you're all just trying to make this one product as best as it can be, and like I just know that like the people who are before you in the line are trying their best as well, and the people after you are going to try their best as well so be mindful of every department. And it's so easy to get bogged down and be like, Oh, this build, but like no they're on a deadline to you're on a deadline they're on a deadline. There's only so much everybody can be doing. So we're all like be willing to make some exceptions for maybe like this incidental build doesn't have all the head turn around. So what make your that incidental is only going to be in like two shots. It would take so much time to make like a full head turnaround for that you can do it in your shot you can do the head turnaround yourself like just know we're all trying to get to the same destination and be nice to each other. That's the most important thing I can say about the animation industry to be nice to each other. It's good advice. And I think I'll just add one more thing so everyone obviously we all have our own styles and stuff, but when we're working with a team under a director. Those times will be working to make our styles kind of mixed together so we can't. So your shot might not be, you know, your own personal style. Because it has to fit into a bigger picture, but that's where your personal projects come in where you can develop your own style and your own storytelling methods and stuff. So I think specifically for VFX films. The companies that direct the films they have a lot of money, and they will spend it on the most ridiculous things, which can be very frustrating, because it's like just sit down five minutes figure out your story and you're good and then you can send it on to the animators. A lot of times VFX companies don't really have a story figured out and then they send it to the animators and they'll change the story and you'll have to redo things like in Godzilla versus Kong there's two complete sequences that were like turned 180 degrees and it's just really frustrating but again like everyone said it's nothing personal, and you just got to do your job, get your pay check and you know it'll be okay it's like, don't don't don't freak out and it's a, it's not it's not your fault it's the director's fault who doesn't get the story figured out. Okay, on that note. I know Leslie has one final question for you. So we can do around table on this so what advice do you have about pitching and, and what equi add prepares you for that. I think that it depends on the, your audience I guess like you're going to have different opportunities if you're going to have it if you have an opportunity to sit down in front of the decision maker the producer the one that has the, you know that the control of whether it goes through or not. You'll have more opportunity to kind of to make an impression, then if it's something that's paperwork that you just sending in like you'll have probably your portfolio that talks for to you, but I find the best opportunities. We have to get through this pandemic but can be when when you could see someone in person in the room and then I think I think that's really how what helped me kind of get through this of my first relationship with the mountain is kind of forgetting it made. I didn't even know what film I wanted to make at that point but I had that first meeting with Shirley very cruise executive producer at the National Film Board here in Vancouver. And I brought some artwork and some actually printed out, you know, big background that I had done for another project that wasn't going to be for the NFB but it kind of gave her a sense of what I wanted to do what I was, where, where my direction mark was was headed. Even though I didn't know this is a specific story wanted to do and I think it probably better if you do know the specific story at that time that you want to do but I knew I wanted to do hide a stories focus on my hide a tradition and tell these these what I feel about telling and bringing out to the world and you know I made an impression so so then later on I could go back and you know work on that proposal in terms of this is the story I want to tell but she remembered who I was because of you know the the artwork and that first kind of impression that was made in that boardroom. Anything else. Just, I just done muting here as I put my hand up. Yeah pitching I love pitching. I used to be the most shy child person ever a long long long time ago. I hated talking to people hit under the chairs when people visited my house hated it, but I somehow learned to get over it and if you want to pitch you're going to have to get over it too. I mean not you personally but whoever is running to pitch. Having kind of a having a good sense of humor about it will help you a lot to. There was a pitch that I did for a TV series, and I was. I don't know what it was like maybe I was just working too hard previously I didn't get enough sleep I was not in the right mind to that for it. I practiced I had it all written down it was great. And when I gave the pitch, I blanked out a couple times there's you know they're in animation or storytelling you always had this kind of rule of three so as I was giving my pitch I thought, you know, just to kind of make something up like, Oh, did you ever, do you ever think about looking at the painting of this Mona Lisa it's so beautiful or maybe you're impressed with the statue of David, or maybe a third thing is really what I said in the pitch. I, I could taste my soul escape my body when that happened. But luckily the show was a comedy so I could kind of play it off a little bit and the people I was pitching to were nice you know not like cigar chomping kind of men of the olden days. If you do, then, you know, bounce back up you know like that, that was definitely a blow, but it wasn't the end of the world, it's okay I'm better at it now. So for pitching I would just say to practice, get enough sleep the night before, you know, have your notes, don't give them out beforehand, make sure that you're talking first and showing your pictures but don't give any, any kind of binders or things until after it's done, because if you do it before people just read the book they won't listen to you and treat it like you're telling a story treat the pitch like you're a storyteller, you know, kind of seduce them with your words into your world introduce the characters introduce the world and the stories like that bring them in kind of hook by hook. You'll need to practice a lot practice with your friends again enemies anyone just until you know it inside out and take on their advice take on their criticisms. So if you get, let's say you presented to 10 people, and all 10 people give you completely different advice and concerns across the board. Then, okay, maybe, maybe you're okay maybe you can kind of take a look at one or two of these, but if all 10 people focus in on one thing, specifically, maybe their solutions are across the board different. But if they all focus on one thing that they don't understand then you know you need to change that. So make sure you keep developing those things but like Christopher was saying earlier. If you try to make something by committee you're just going to end up with this kind of muddy thing that you won't even recognize anymore do stick to your guns do make something that's true to yourself true to your heart true to your comedy, or whatever it is it could be. I don't know whatever you're doing. I kind of treat creating things like this like, I'm making this for me. I'm not making this for the demographic of a to 12 boys, you know, I'm making something that I want to watch and if it happens to me then that awesome. You may need to get have that answer handy. If you're talking to like, you know stakeholders, but ultimately make something that that you love and get some sleep the night before you pitch. I'm going to add because definitely covered. Don't be discouraged if your first pitch doesn't work out because it probably won't. It almost never does. I've never, like, I've heard a lot of people pitch like talk talk about how their pitches went and almost never does the first one go through. And that's okay you can rework the pitch you are currently working on, and you can take the critique that the people who you're pitching to give you and rework it and pitch again, or you could just come up with a new idea there is never going to be like, don't be afraid to pitch. Because you think you're going to fail. Failing is the best thing that can make you get better, because it will learn you'll learn from it. So yeah, never be afraid to pitch because you don't think it's going to work out. You, they're never going to like stamp your card there's no card that says, oh this person didn't do a good job will never hear from them again. They will. They're hungry for ideas. They want to hear from people. They want you to pitch. Do you have anything to add to that Alicia. I have yet to do my first pitch so I don't know anything about it yet. But it's very it's so good to hear from all of you. So I get a better idea as well like what to expect and what to prepare for. If I do want to pitch any ideas. Yeah, that's so true to run in terms of. Yeah, it may be not it, we're going to work out the first time because you know that meeting I was talking about was surely while there was a whole bunch of meetings before that that they had that didn't work out so well. I think the meeting that shared me for that meeting was surely where I was maybe a little bit more relaxed and a little bit more myself. And, you know, made for for a better first impression, I guess. Yeah, it was I think a Martin it was a three we tried for quite a few years with the war of the blink right to get that one through and you know that was you know quite a few years of pitching and trying to get it up the ladder and just you learn from them. Thank you. Okay, well, I'm going to wrap up now and so that we can get into those breakout rooms so once again I want to thank everyone for joining us tonight. And if you have further questions for the panelists please join one of the breakout rooms and also know that you don't have to stay in a breakout room that you can go to other. And you can talk to people and then this is our version of networking so here in hope at times so.