 You can now follow me and all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications button so you're notified for when my next podcast goes live. It's been alleged that I used to get kilos of puffing joe every month. That's a big ass. That's coming in. No, it's your mum, mate. Your mum. Your mum. Your mum. Don't talk about asses. Don't cut me short. Don't cut me short. The kilos only come from your mum, because even the nurses, the doctors and the admin, they only bring in the answers and a few pills and a few bits and pieces, but they're big lumps. They come from your mum, mate. Come on, be honest. No, no, be honest. Be honest. No, no, please, be honest. No, of course not. They all fucking hate it. I am honest. It's become really prevalent. Like, percentage of prisoners snitching and being sneaks. On each other? Yes. A lot more than it used to be. He's fucking like this. Fucking. And then as you're bending your arm, you're like, Oh, you fucking slag. Break it. Break it. Left arm, you mug. Break it. I don't fucking care. You've got a phone in your pocket that you know you've taken from my mate's ass. You know you've took it. You know you've took it from my... You know you've took it from my mate's ass. You fucking know you took it from my mate's ass. So you feel the best thing to do is make a phone call to somebody who knows I don't fucking know while you're walking into the police station to hand yourself in for two murders. Well, four murders now. Oh, yeah. Why would you go into the police station with the phone that connects me to you? Only a small percentage of these cunts would dig them out. Do you know what I mean? Like, even the nunces, the sickest nunces, get treated like fucking Rory. Like, you're quick enough to kill fucking powerful inmates that fucking drive you mad for years. They've killed about four of my pals in prison. Do you know what I mean? I'm not saying he has a possibility, but the fucking system have killed them and they put behind fucking bullshit and say, No, he hung himself or he killed him. He cut his wrist. No, they don't, mate. They don't. They fucking screws through it. The screws through it. My pal would never have killed himself. I'm now remembering and it would make my fucking blood boil. No, like that. Hey, cunt, open my door. He must have been a fucking person. I'm not letting him get away with this. I regret not having a proper life. I regret, like, not having nice Christmases, not being there for my kids. You know, like, all them things you regret, all that sort of stuff. Been my line. Boom. Merry Christmas, everybody. Ho, ho, ho. And today I've got an absolute exclusive. It is an absolute cracker. It is Marvin here, but the most explosive guy I've had on the show. And then I've got Sam, Sam's worth. Prison guard. We've got two opposite people sitting across. I'm going to ask you first, Sam, what do you think of Marv that you first met him? Just now. Yeah. Cockney market trader. Get him on the storm. Come here, geese. You know what I mean? Very animated. Very animated. But I do recognise him. I did recognise him in strange ways when I was there. Yeah. I can't remember him being on a catty unit, but I remember seeing him about. So, yeah. How does it feel sitting across from our foremost crew? With me, yeah, like I just said, it's only the men, isn't it? Like, screws are screws. Police officers are doing their job. It's how they treat me. Do you understand? So, I don't care who's the screw. I don't care who's the police officer. They've got a job. I had a job. So, when I was a criminal, he was a screw on one side of the fence. I was a criminal on the other side of the fence. Now, if we could create some harmony in the middle, so he don't affect me and I don't affect him, then it's good. If we can't, then it's fucking ag. And that was as simple as it was. And they had a 30, 40-man strong team on the press of a bell. So, you had to be in quick with it. So, how many teams did that happen with you? Oh, every week. Every week. It never happened in the week there was something wrong. Every week, I was getting bent up and taken down the block. Every week, sometimes twice a week. And then he got to, yeah, just sometimes twice a week. Was that sore? Beating the shirt out, yeah? Themes? Do you know what? If I'm being honest, yeah, it was a coping mechanism. What bit was the coping mechanism? The getting better, the suffering, the getting bent up, getting taken down the block. It's like, do you know what? It's not like sometimes you want to... But you feel like a lunatic doing it. So the only way to do that is... To play rugby. Fuck it. From bend the screw and then the screw, they'll press the bell, you get bent up and then as you're bending your arm, you're like, you fucking slag! Break it! Break it! Left arm, you mug! Break it! I don't fucking care! You're fucking slags. And it was just bending, getting rid of all that built up aggression. You go down the block. You go in the strip cell. You're in the strip... You get put in the cell first and they release and they run out. So once they release the lock, they'll run out of the cell and then they bang the door up and then they observe you for 12 hours. So then they think you're calm. So what I do within that 12 hours, all I do is press up, sit up, squat first, burpee. So every time I look through my door, I'm press up burpee, squat and burp. And then they might turn through two, three, four o'clock in the night. I'm sleeping. Six, seven o'clock in the morning. I'm up again because I'm up as soon as I hear a key on the landing. So whenever they look through my flat, I'm doing work up, press up. My cell door opens. As soon as it opens, it's off. Right? Then you go strip cell. So now it's mind games. Now it's mind games because now I have to break the governor. Because if you break the governor, then you get results. The way you break the governor is by charging, by costing him money. How you're costing money is by instilling fines within the prison system. When you know the system, so you do all you think, go down the block, strip cell. So you're going to strip cell and they're going to hold you in the strip cell for three days. They can't put you back in the strip cell if they take you out of the strip cell. They've got to go through a procedure. Otherwise they have to pay a large amount of money. So it's just about getting in that strip cell and standing in that strip cell for as long as possible. The governors don't like it. So they come down and they talk to you. They say, what can we do, Herbert? This isn't healthy. It's not good. It's not good for you. It's not good for the inmates. It's not good for the prison. What is it we can do, Herbert? I say, I don't like that fucking horrible bastard. He's that fucking cunt. He only wants to do his XYZ. And then they broke a little deal with you. How would you deal with somebody like Marvin and the prison system? We had a lot. We had a lot. Whenever in private sector, right, private sector gets a bad press. Let me tell you, whenever at the Forest Bank, you used to get everyone, people like Marvin, Birmingham, Scotland, you name it. They come, the segregation at the door at the end and they come off vans from all over. Nobody wants to go to a private sector prison, do they? I don't know. Private sector, is that the Dove Gates and all them children? Yeah, they do. They love them. They love them. No, prisoners love them. We used to get them in the block, though. Right, so Marvin, a lot of people I talked with, when he said someone in the middle, thinking of somebody now who used to work that block with, he's still in job now. I don't want to embarrass him. Low way. You know, Marvin, he's angry. He's coming, so you leave him a bit and go and talk to him. And a lot of it depends, like he says, it does depend on how you treat people. Yeah? The segregation, me, for boring. It was boring. Boring place to work. The strips are, like he says, it's 24 hours now. They used to use them a lot. 24? Yeah, yeah, because human rights, the isolation, isolation, you've got nothing. Apart from a slot, there's a little slit. Yeah, around the block. Observation to make sure that I thought about it. With the Danny G. Right, he's in there. Car suicide. There's nothing in there. There's nothing. There's nothing in it. It's just all the floors. It's just sealed. Get a bedpan and a pot to piss in and maybe some, like, plastic cups of water. No. No. What in the strip cell? No. Maybe that's the mental place or the hospital. But strip cell, you've got nothing. And what they do, in the strip cell, you've got a blanket and a mad pair of big shorts. They give you these mad shorts. They kick, they give you. I've never worn the kit in a strip cell. I mean, it's like, and then basically, they come three times to give you your dinner and you've got to eat it and then give you the plate back. Like, you're not allowed to keep anything in that cell. Do you know what I mean? And then if you do kick off. Which was a good idea. Yeah, they put you in a body belt. So now you're in a strip cell. Can't speak no one. Can't see no one. In a body belt. So you can't even touch nothing. Can't do nothing. Body belt now. Again, special permission because, obviously, human rights and everything. Do you know what body belt is? Yeah, let the strip, the straight jacket. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's about a big belt. It goes around here. And it's got a handcuff down, handcuff down. You just hit it like that. And you cocks that. Your balls are out. Everything's out. Naked. Naked. That's it. Well, if you choose not to wear a clothing now, yeah? Yeah, but listen to me. So what's the idea of not wearing clothes then? Because it's just, it's just weakness, isn't it? We're in the fucking segment. Let's have it! You can't. Open the fucking door. What? You mug. Yeah? You're fucking what? Come on. And it's hard for a man, right? And trust me, it's hard for a man to steam into a naked man. It's hard for a man to fight a naked man. So if you've got three or four people, what they think about first is restraining you. They don't think about coming in and fighting you. So you've got the upper hand when you're prepared to fight because let me know this, right? Now we can start talking about it. This is what public don't understand, yeah? I'm taught. We meet two mates, three officer team, and you have a leg man, a fourth man. So if Marvin's an handful, and we do get him on deck, and he's thrashing out, you get someone on the legs. You take some of these legs out. You take a lot of the power base away, yeah? But, like he says, if I'm going in there, I'm concentrating on getting all of his right arm and somebody else's left arm and someone protecting his head, if he's a street fighter, you know, and comes out punching, vast majority of prison officers don't think standing on the feet. He'll tell you now. We can get all this out. I'm glad about this. Prison officers, under prison officers here, you've got your granny, you're in middle, number 50, and maybe you might have one like Marvin because they were one or two, but not many. Other end, yeah? And everyone in between, Auntie's uncle's sisters. Yeah, so you're going in with him. He's a fighter. So Marvin is probably in strange ways when he was there. If that's how he was, you might have five prisoners, potentially like Marvin. That's it. 1,200 prisoners, five like him, fighting the system, yeah? So, these lads I worked with who were good. If you got somebody who were good at C&R, they'd still work it out. You might take a couple of punches or whatever. However, most people are going to get leathered. I've seen people like Marvin. Some clever manager will get three staff and you look and you think, it's not going to end well, this. When my mate first started, he had a black lad, he was an animal. So my mate is new to the job, yeah? They sent him into other news that they got battered. Absolutely smashed, yeah? When they come in with the shields and they're not experienced, yeah? All you do is pull those shields and they're stuck on it. They're stuck on it. So you pull it down like this, punch me in the face, pull it to the top. The other thing is, in all my time, planned removal, so, like, we've got a planned removal for Marvin. We've got all gear on. I probably had three fights. Most of them, they surrender. Or you go in and it's peaceful. So people aren't used to it and they don't know what to do. Did you have a surrender, mate? No. I tell you what, the biggest accolade I've got, right, was from Swellside. It was a full, full, SO full or full and it was like an ex-military man. Like, ripped. Like, you know, like, it was like an older gentleman, but it was one of them really peaceful people. But he was known in the prison as an ardent nut. Same as Jonesy and Smith from Wandsworth. So all the mage of screws that could have a rat, I always had it with them. So this guy, he said, he'd come with me after, he had a mad tear up and he'd come after, he went, he said, I'm gonna shake you out. I said, why? He said, that was the longest time it's ever took us to get anybody to the floor. I never expected that from you. And I was like, I don't know, I really appreciate you saying that. So I'm saying because I was an ego freak and it was more about they're not getting me down, I'm not letting them take me down. So I'm saying about, that was the only sort of props I got and that SO was a real powerful individual within the prison system. You know, like, you've got, you've got officers, but then you've got officers. You've got officers that walk on the wing and they'll come in yourself and they'll have a fucking tear up we are. Not many. Not many. There ain't many. This was one of them. Is that true? Yeah. A dozen. I met a dozen. We said this some way down, didn't we? Maybe a dozen. Marvin. Lads. Who were fighters. So a one-on-one. They know your reputation. You know what you like. Yeah. They would still go in and sell you, but maybe a dozen. Fair play, man. They do. They don't need to understand that. They do, man. I've met them all the way for my whole sentence, right? I've met them out for my whole sentence. I've never had a straightener in a cell with an officer. Do you know what I mean? But I've heard them offer people out. One officer come to myself and then as he come in, close the door, and I was like, and then he was like, oh, but do we really have to go down this road? I said, yeah, come on. I don't know whether or not he wanted to fight for him for doing that. Yeah, because it's more about the way you communicate with us, isn't it? It's not about punishment. It's about punishment. That is it. You make me feel like a mug in front of everyone or you said something that embarrassed me in front of everyone and I don't know you. So that's the ego part of us that makes us want to react. But then you've got officers that think you're a piece of shit because you're a criminal. They're the ones that really do my thing. Did you have a rub, a rub, a rub, or a shit on yourself or anything? You've seen further on, so yeah, did that ever happen? Yeah, my mates used to do it. My mate used to do it. What are young offenders? Why? Because you can't get a grip. If I'm trying to get hold of your arm and put you in a lock, if you've got baby, whatever, baby, it was baby or a coconut bar. And they also used to put shampoo on floors. Yeah, that's what I was doing. I tried to shampoo the floor. Listen, why would you want to have him angry? Let's talk about this again. OK. Again. So, right, like I've said, maybe five prisons like him in strange ways at any one time, not all necessarily kicking off, Marvin has grown up in a violent world, yeah? So, he's not going to be intimidated by me or anyone else. However big they are, you know, and people... I'll pause you for a minute. I'll tell you what does intimidate you. Three o'clock in the morning when you hear the landing row, when you know that's the Mufti, because they've got a national Mufti squad. Yeah, who's touch on the Mufti because you use exactly the man's with a black car. As you told me that, and I've had a clue about the fuck they were talking about. Right, so that's when you think they're coming for me, they're coming for me, and when you hear them go past you, you think... Right, plundering move on, it must be scary, right? No, only a national plant, only a national, because... Oh, the nationals, yeah. The nationals are different gravy. They're different gravy. They train. That's all they do. They train. You've got the elite, you've got prison officers and you've got the elite prison officers. You've got these elite prison officers. All they're trying to do is extract the worst, the hardest and the most violent criminals at three o'clock in the morning. However, now, a lot of their role is advisory. So if they record that, Yeah, yeah. A lot. So if they come to strange ways and there's an hostage situation or something, they'd be advising and looking what's going on. Yeah, they do have capacity. They have 18 van full of stuff that... I wouldn't talk about it if I knew we were on it, but they have a lot at their disposal, yeah. They train. They physically fit. They train to work at heights. Everything, every situation. But a lot of it now is advisory. Yeah. So they are like... So they come for the elite. Who gives a green light for these people? Is this... Let's just say Marvin is in a cell with an hostage at strange ways on seawing. Yeah. They might get a phone call very quickly. Yeah, they have a rapid response team who are on shift all time and they might turn up and advise or look at the scene. Because there's one of two things. If there's a threat to... You've got to make a decision. It's not an easy decision. If he's got a knife and he's caught in someone, you know, what are you going to do? Someone's got to make that decision and that's what they're there for. Yeah. So in normal circumstances, you will deal with somebody else. You'll have your own nostrils to go with the haters. You'll have a team. You'll have a C&R instructor, whatever. But they're always there for advisory time. Are they train corporals, train screws, army? What are they? I don't know. The prison officer's right. C&R instructors. So I were taught private and public sector at the same. All the locks Marvin's on about. You are taught to safely take someone to the floor. You can restrain them standing up. I've never restrained anyone standing up. You take them to the floor. You get them in locks. It's safe for them and safe to move them. Yeah. Get them cuffed or whatever. Everyone goes through that training. Most of them will have been C&R instructors. So they're teaching me and they get further training. All they do, mate, is I don't know where they work two-on-two off. They train. They're in the gym. They're working at ladders, breaking into cells, checking new gear, pyros, everything. Yeah? And then they have two week off, something like that. Or two week on call and two week training. But they're the ones you've got to worry about. They're the only ones I've ever worried about. Because they're the ones when you wake up and you're in Franklin block or fucking somewhere in the middle of nowhere block and you don't know where you are and they don't talk. You're in communicado. You just wake up and you think, what's your problem, mate? And you've got to wait for the inmates to wake up. Or inmates might know, what's your problem, mate? And you think, fuck, Wakefield block or Sturren block. Do you know what I mean? Because when you get ghosted by the nationals, you go block to block to block to block. And you don't come out of the block. Do you know what I'm saying? So the dispersals that I went into, I never actually went on the wings. I mean, some of them didn't know where I was. I just went there for a few days and then got moved out a couple of weeks later and then moved out another couple of weeks later. And then you get spoken to by, it's like a national governor. I don't know what they call them but a governor comes in and speaks to you and says, listen, we can't keep doing this. You can't keep doing that. You need to really focus on what you're doing for the rest of your sentence. This is madness. You're going to end up staying in the cages at Wakefield. We've got no other options to do with this. You're not doing it long enough. You're only doing a five-year sentence. Why are you behaving like this? And then when I explain myself, then things get put in your file. So in my page 16, there were certain things like you know about the page 16. So the page 16, in my page 16, no threat was to be overlooked no matter how big or small. Every threat is to be taken directly as intentional and that I cannot be in like, well, they say, I wasn't nude. Don't use... I don't know what the word was, but it's basically, don't wind me up. Do you know what I mean? And in one page in Cannabis, he smokes. Like, I can't remember exactly what it was, but it was like, let him smoke Cannabis, basically. And I was one of the only people. Well, I don't know, because for years I couldn't understand why. I'd never get piss-tested. I'd never get fucking drove, man. I'd never got myself spun a couple of times. And I said, I've got anything in here. I said, come shavings over there, because I used to cut the bars up. That's bad. You cut a bar of puff up. You've got nine ounces of puff. So you cut a bar of puff up. You get loads of shavings. Yeah? So I've got a fucking harsh, mate. Yeah, well, it's been a ledge that I used to get kilos of puffing, Joe, every month. That's a big ass. That's coming in. No, it's your mum, mate. Your mum. Your mum. Hold up, hold up. Your mum. Don't about asses. No, don't. Don't cut me short. The kilos only come from your mob. Because even the nurses, the doctors and the admin, yeah, they're only bringing in the asses and a few pills and a few bits and pieces, but they're big lumps. They come from your mob, mate. I'm happy with that. Let's, before it goes too far, the aggression bit, let's go back to that and then talk about last time we were having it. So the aggression bit, what I'm telling you, you can see what it's like. Yeah. Yeah? He's a handful. 95% of people I work with, he never had a fight in their life. Never. Yeah? They're not, they're not used to that. A lot of stuff, bottle, let's talk about bottle. Prison officers, there's lots of prison officers don't have bottle. When it becomes challenging, like somebody like Marvin, it's a back step. You know, the normal people, your aunties, your sisters, your uncles. So Marvin, he's not scared of anyone. Lots of prisoners have grown up in prison and he's not scared of anyone. Lots of prisoners have grown up in violent environment and you've got normal people, not necessarily normal. Do you think people would leave their job because of people at Marvin? A lot of people won't come into contact with people. So let's say you had a dust up at strange ways and ended up down the block. The amount of people that's dealing with him, SEG staff are used to dealing, not necessarily good, although some of our work we were, like Lowe, good at dealing with violent people. You get used to it. On the health care, they're meant to be unwell. I got used to working with people who were meant to be unwell. It's just a communication, isn't it? When was the last time you were in Marvin? 2013. Right. So now, as I believe it was, it might have changed its name. So prisoners like Marvin now, they've got a challenging behaviour programme. That name might have changed in the last few years. But basically, so Marvin's kicking off his down the block, you know, he's not in normal pop, is a problem. Sign him up to challenging behaviour. Once you're on that, he will be kept in special conditions. So he might be on the cat A unit, strange ways. Yeah, on challenging behaviour. He's monitored, things are noted differently, and he'd be treated differently. On a challenging behaviour, he would not be on a normal wing. Yeah. And the idea is, you know, smaller groups, cat A unit, not very big was it, maximum 30, 35 prisoners. It's a small unit. Split up, split up. Yeah. That was the only unit I've ever been on that wasn't split up. Yeah. It's only a small unit, strange ways. It's a big unit compared to normal units. No. It's a big unit compared to unit. But what I mean is, if you're going to wake him, cat A's can be all over the jail. Whereas there, they're all kept together, aren't they? Yeah, but there's a unit. So you've got cat A's, and then you've got the unit. The two different prisons, because the cat A's are different, and then you've got the double cat A's. I need to be away from all the cat A's as well. Do you understand? Yeah. So our units are different. So the normal unit, it'd be maybe one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. Maybe 12 cells per spur, or six cells per spur, and then there'll be three spurs for the unit. But I only see six people in the whole year, apart from when I went, no, not even the visits. You don't even go and see no one on visits. You get taken into a bus, and you get taken to a little unit, and then you go on a visit, and your missus gets drove in around the prison. I mean, you don't go on a normal visit at all. So the units are segregated from everyone in strange ways. The unit was a wing, a whole wing, so you could have 30 people, and they wouldn't be able to segregate us. It's contained in it. Yeah. But if you had 30 catties on that wing, they'd be problems, mate. How did you get the screws to bring stuff in with the threatened, or were they just doing it for money? Well, there's a few ways. There's a few ways of doing it. Ego, you know, necessity and need, really. So it depends. You can... You're never going to make them do something to risk their job. That's one thing. So you ain't going to get a screw to be your friend to bring something in. But you've got to make it worth it for him, or something that he fears. Or her. Yeah, or her. Yeah. Did you know a lot of people who were bringing stuff in? In the private sector, right, lots of people fell by the way. Right? As an officer, yeah, a lot of my friends are like, everyone's a scumbag. I work with some young people, 19, 20-year-olds. So you imagine somebody coming up against Marvin, who's 19 or 20. Yeah? And private sector, wing 86-2 staff, that's all. They're all over you. I got asked, because I'm friendly. People come up. You seem friendly, boss. Go away. Do you know what I mean? Alt-time. Alt-time. Alt-time. Young lad. So he was 20. He looked about 15. Yeah? I worked with him 18 months. He disappeared. Yeah? Gone. Didn't fall any sick. Never came back. Prison tried to contact him, nothing. I guessed that, you know, he'd probably been bringing stuff in. Fast forward to Stringsways, 2007. A lad from Dispersal come from Franklin on accumulated visits, which means they come back to Manchester and they see the family for a month every day. Yeah? Saved the visits up. So he mentioned him this lad. What did you do? We were on at him six months, Mr. Samworth brought a phone in. Leave me alone. He would then bring in bottles of Coke and Jack Daniels in at weekend. Another couple of phones. He says, roll over it. We had him in his pocket and then he just left. The only way out for that lad was to leave. Yeah? He was in a bad place. People had said, scumbag, you know, bent screw, horrible nasty. 1920, look 15. I now know him. I know him now. He's married. What will he be now? He'd be heading towards for a two kids normal lad. It is not a job for young people. Young people are vulnerable. These lads, all over people's stuff. You can see weaknesses in stuff, the normal people. It's very intimidating place. So you've got avenues, right? So some of the things that I've done, well, basically screws like Sam, rather than do anything, I'd just get 1500 quid in a little wad and I'd walk up to him and say, you got a minute? Because he don't talk like all the other screws. I say, you got a minute? I come in myself and say, I'll just find something. Give him the 1500 quid. I say, I'll just find that. I ain't going to say nothing. Take it home, mate. Do what you want with it. You had 15 tonne in a jill? Yes. It's a part of the graft. I had everything in jail. So you get it and you plug it. You have money. When you're targeting people, then you get ready for it. So you get the 1500 quid in the little wad. If, from our side again, you've got money in jail, you've got a problem. That's what they always tell you. Why? How are you going to get cash in? If it's getting in, then it's a big problem. Marvin is loaded. When I were at bank, there were a lad who used to leave pictures of his girlfriend, underpillar. Not naked. She was pretty. He'd say to me, mate, Mr. R. Oh, nearly mentioned his name. I'm glad I didn't. Go and have a look. I've got some more pictures at Mrs. Yeah? One day it is three grand there. Yeah? Phone security manager, security manager come down. Why have you phoned me? Three grand? Why didn't you just keep it? You know? Of course there's loads of problems now. So, I come across 20 pound note on K-wing. A lad got a 20 pound note in a letter. You give it me. Can you put that in bank? You're not supposed to send money in it. You should never got to a winger. I give it my manager. I say, this is that 20 quid. Mr. Burt. Did you know Mr. Burt? Yeah. Did you like him? Exactly. There you go. Burt. I gave him 20 quid. He says, you don't owe me any money. I says, no one at Conn's has just given me. He went fucking bananas. He had to go down security. He had to be all documented. Yeah? It's a big problem. So... Yeah. For me, Sam, you're a good guy. You see my good prison officer. How would you have dealt with Sam and the jail? I wouldn't have taken the money. Yeah. But, you know... Would you have tried to manipulate him or did you realise he's a good guy in midframe? There's plenty. There's probably plenty in there. So you move on. Yeah. That's it. You just get one hit, one bite, and we don't move on to the next one. And then it's... You find out what car they drive. You speak, Yeah, yeah, yeah. What car do you drive? So they'll give you ego, isn't it? They'll give you all the information. What engine is it? Sha. You look like a fucking three-liter. No. I can't afford insurance. Because they're normal. They just talk. So they talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. You look like a blue car, man. I mean, my car ain't blue. Fucking grey, mate. What? Graphite? No, not graphite. Like, like, grey. Like, grey. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You look like fucking earl bubbles. Oh, I've got none out of my car. What have I got in my car? They'll tell you all the information. So you say, Hello, mate, yeah, I'm looking for this car like that. Can I get the car? I've got it. I've got it. All right. See if this car comes out. Send him a picture of him. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he's in the car. Sweet. He said, let me know where he lives. And then bam, get them pictures of people coming in that ass. Yeah, gov, gov, gov, gov, you got a minute? I don't know who you've caused problems. Right, but I'm getting a little whisper on the graphite that you've got a problem coming your way. No, I can't sort with you up because I've got links up. But is that your Mrs? Is that your kid? Is that your house? Dangerous play. You're like, blah, blah, blah. Look, if I will come up, yeah, I'm going to go no comment. So don't bother running to anyone. Do you know what I mean? Because this is to get locked down. I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know where you got them fucking photos from. You see, I've got my gloves on. My prints on and then photos gov. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I'm trying to help you. I'm trying to help you. So do what you like. I don't know who you give the up to in here. I don't know who buys you presents. Did you ever see any threats like that, Sam? Yeah. Death threats or anything? Yeah. How would you deal with that? Was it scary? What's it fucking? Right, right. Let's go. Let's go. Yes. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Right. And our job is to fucking get him scared. Listen, I have a family. When we were at Forest Bank, I was a single lad. We had a lad in there who took a dislike to me. In his time, it had been about. His name was Tommy Beverage. Okay. Yeah, Scouse lad. He was up there in his day. He took a dislike. This is what Sam worth getting him done. He's on phone in the SEG to one of his mates. I want him done in. Yeah. I thought that was the number one governor in Belmont. Listen, Marvin. So, at my SO's there, I says you're going to let him set out. He's seen his ass in. I will say this, Marvin. That lad without block. Four, five months, 30 protests and that. By the time he left the block, went to a wing and then come back to the block, me and him got on. You know, I didn't bring him no phones in. I didn't give him no just talk reasonable. It does happen. Now he does. Most people aren't like Marvin though. They don't have that pull. The Kata unit, they're dangerous people. In the 80s, for the public, so they can understand, it might be a mafia and the IRA. So they've got money. You know, they can threaten people. It's scary. Insurmountable networks. Yeah, of course it is. They read all the intelligence stuff, all the reports. So they get inside information that is beyond reputation. So they're getting, and when they're reading it from an official place of sort of authority, they take it seriously. So when they read someone's page 16 for argument's sake, they look at the page 16 and think, I don't believe that. Fuck that. They think, shut up, because that page 16 is telling them exactly what that person is capable of doing, what he's prepared to do, what he's going to do if you do the opposite of that. So then sometimes you get officers to think, I don't give a fuck, and they come and try. And then basically I'm one of them cunts. I say, what, you haven't read my page 16? Because I tell them, mate, why aren't you're necking? I'm going to punch you in your face. Do you understand me? He's called somewhere else now, but it is like. Did you ever feel intimidated by the cunts? Of course you do. You would. Who do you think is eating the mufti? Even the mufti mob come? Did you ever think they're going to kill me? But this is the thing, the mufti could kill you. Because you are a fucking menace to society. They can, they can, they can. And it's easy for them to do it. And then what they do, yeah, this is the mad thing, because they're always ex-fix you, aren't you? When you die with the mufti, you'll always be too much pressure on your chest, too much pressure on your neck, and you die. Why? So they'll just hang you. Do you know what I mean? They've done it to loads of fucking villains. They just hang them. Do you know what I mean? What they do is they put a finger around their neck, put a finger around the door handle, and then just leave, go out the door. Just come out the door. They come out the door, they're like, all they do is get a kid, put them against the door, get the rope around the handle, pull the handle to the door shut, shut the door. And that's it. And then when the person comes, opens the door, opens it, he'll fall on his face. And then I think, what's happened? He killed himself. And that's how they get away with it. That's heavy. They kill people in prison. Don't get it twisted. This is why we're on about body cams and cameras. For me, body cams, right, it had killed dynamic security relationships you have with people, because how you talk to people isn't necessarily PC. So if me and Marvin had a relationship, and I knew he was kicking up Marvin, come on, get behind your fucking door. The government sees that. They don't want that language. It's a tough place prison, right? It's okay. These people now that believe, it means for still an officer, Mr Herbert, how are you? May I come in and search yourself? He's fucking like this. Fucking. Gonna have it. Like it does. Good impression. No, he's giving it that. What am I going to do? I'm going to see me ask and go away, and I'm not searching his cell. It's a tough environment. Yeah. The brutality that was 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, if they're not careful, return. You know, because this, what's happening in the world now, the virus is covered a lot of things up in prison services, flat on its arse. It's going back 23 hours, bang up. I'm not bothered what anyone says. They might be odd, Nick, that's still good, but like during this virus, prisons have been locked up 22, 23, some 24 hours a day. No, 23 and a half hours. Right, 23 and a half. 23 and a half hours. They do not have the staffing, they do not have the quality of staff, and they can't retain the staff to get back to, if you go back to 212 strange ways, 213 in prison report, probably, it was the outgoing prison inspector, he says probably best report ever on a prison. Yeah? Staff prison relationships, cell farm, people feel safe, that's both staff and prisoners, probably the best report he'd ever done. Can I just interrupt there? Yeah, of course you can. Now, to be said 2012, 2013, that was when I was in there, right? Oh yeah, of course it was. Now, I'm going to tell you now, yeah, walking along that landing, being in that jail, that had the best report ever, yeah, made me turn my way, myself away from crime, because I'm looking at all the villains, right, and I'm thinking, what are you doing, mate? I'm going to get in a 12. What? You was an inict a week ago. How do you going to get a 12? How do you know you're going to get a 12? I made an indication of guilty in the police station to get 50% of my sentence. I was like, say that again? I've made an early indication in the police station, that I'm going to go guilty, and because I've done that, I'm getting 50% of my thing. I said, but what about your evidence? You might go home. I ain't taking a chance. Say that again? So you just took six years, without no evidence, on a conspiracy. Are you fucking mad? He's like, no, no. I was like, wow. And that was all I was hearing every day. And I just got to the past. I just had to say to people, do you know what you fucking cunts? Don't speak to me. I don't want to speak to none of you people. And I'm looking and thinking, wow, everyone's gone mad. It's gone mad, like why? Fuck. What charge have you got? Have all these people making deals in the police station to get 50% off? What are they going to do if we get nicked together and there's no out? Bruv. This mindset's fucked. They're full of snitches, grasses and... Yeah, he's definitely... Wow, I can't believe it. There's a lot of the cons, snitches in there. Come on, be honest. No, no, be honest. Be honest. No, please, be honest. No, of course not. They're all fucking at it. I am honest. It's become really prevalent. Right, I left. Percentage. Percentage of prisoners snitching and being sneaks. On each other? Yeah. A lot more than it used to be. 50%. 70%. I can't quantify it. All I can tell you is I know people now who were in conspiracies and that and mysteriously people have got off who was the ringleader. There was a big one when they did the documentary in 2011 in Strange Ways. 350 million. I think it was Coke they were importing. The main man walked free. His brother got 23 years. So what time? All the others got big centre. He walked free. Yeah. So it has become more prevalent and this, what Marvin's on about the sentencing, I've known lads, right, quite definitely, who were innocent, who've taken a three or four year because they were shit scared of running a trial and getting a ten or a twelve. That's what I'm talking about. And I couldn't be involved in that. And I'm looking at these fucking people and I'm thinking, I'm a villain. What the fuck are these people? Because I haven't actually turned my life around at that stage. It was that, it was that nicking, that bit of sentencing and what am I going to do with the rest of my life? While I'm on that sentence, while I'm not sentencing, while I'm on the remand, right? And then when I come out in 2040, because I never turned my life around 100% until 2015. So I'm still in it. Do you know what I'm saying? I'm still in it. So I'm still got that mindset, you fucking rats. Like you're grasping yourself up. You fucking idiot. And I'm thinking, wow, is this what the villains are going to be? And these are people, this is what in my head, these are people that I'm going to be sending graph to. How the fuck can I send you graph when you're going to belly up the first innings? Wow, nah, mate. I can't be in it. I'm thinking, what the fuck? Right, so can we go back to strange ways? Yeah. 213. Honest. Yeah. You might have had some bother. You might not have got on with everyone from your point of view, because I enjoyed my job at that time, right? People misunderstand. When they say a jail's tough for me, it's just a regime, so people know where they're at. Yeah. You know, outside that regime, nothing's going to happen or whatever. And good relationships. Me, and I'm not just saying this, you know what I'm like, James, the job for me, we're getting on with people, the interactions every day, yeah? You just come across as a busy member to me. So you like that job? I like that job, because it was just like, it was informative to him. It was like, interesting. Thousands and thousands of interactions on K-Wing. You make thousands of interactions every day. You're opening people up, talk, talk, talk, talk. That's the worst jail. The worst jail for me was K-Wing, summer, shorter staff, banged up, boredom, and people get frustrated. Are we getting exercise, kicking doors, kicking off? I fucking hated it, mate. Seeing that thing, he talks about the page 16, and you know... Well, he's like an angel. The jibber have a piece of paper that when you read it and you know somebody was going to be the jibber pre-on them to go, he could be a mole for us. No, no, let me tell you, on K-Wing, yeah, I didn't look at people's files. Marvin, come on. I don't know Marvin. I don't know nothing about him. I didn't need to. If I had to do a parole report or something for Marvin, which I did now and again, you know, I'd have a look who he were. I made a point. I made a point. I screwed up, I spoke to him. I said, do me a favour. I'll be honest. I said, do me a favour, cunt. Can I have a look at my page 16 before you say one more word, mate? I was going to smash your fucking face in. Did you ever feel bullied? I felt the intention of bullying, because what it is, because they're an organisation, and they've got to enforce rules and regulations, they have to be bullies to us, because we're naughty. So, you always felt like, whenever I turned out of prison, it was like, right, you've got to make, not just an impact for the inmates, you've got to let the screws know, mate. Don't be fucking with me, because I ain't normal. I'm not sitting there and doing nothing. I'm not doing as I'm fucking told. I'm smoking my weed. I'm drinking my alcohol. And I'm getting a fucking phone. And if you've got a problem with that, then we're going to have a problem. Simple. So, I was just... I've done everything. I had everything, I created everything in prison, and they was the enemy, and I wasn't. And everything I wanted, I had to get. And I tried my hardest to get everything, and they were the enemy, and they were the people who was preventing me from living my life. All right, I'm in prison. I'm doing a bit of bird. But I want to have a fucking drink. So, I'm having a fucking drink. I'm not in prison to be... Prison is my punishment. And this is what people, this is the mindset I had, right? Being incarcerated is your punishment. You're not supposed to be punished in prison. Yeah. That's an illegal act. They're not allowed to keep things away from you. You're still entitled to every human right you're entitled to as a human being on this planet in prison. But they manipulate the human rights with rules and regulations of a service establishment. So, I never played that. I was a human being. And if I want to drink, I'm going to drink. I'm going to smoke. If you try to prevent me from doing that, I'm going to fuck you up. And that's how I was. How does that make you feel, though, that there's that no-shot weakness from the prison officers for some reason? Listen, listen, listen, listen, listen. I need to say this during this podcast as well. I will tell you now, because it's all right talking like this and you think everyone's bad. I work with some fantastic people. Not, not big people. Not brutal people. These people now left job who were fantastic prison officers. You know, they helped people, did things for people. Amazing. Yeah. You do get banned. But listen, in strange ways, I'll give you this. I'll give you this, right? Two officers. There was only two officers. There was two male officers and a female fucking SO, I think it was. And they were fucking vile, vile, vile. Mr. Mann and his little sidekick. Apparently, I put a contract out on his sidekick to get him mined out in the jail, which was a load of bullets. To get him what? Killed or shot or hurt. Yeah. Because basically what happened was, in strange ways, I don't want privileges. I don't want enhance. I don't want nothing. Right? I want to be in myself. I want to smoke my puff. I want to do what I'm doing. So all I was doing was finding ways to get my puff in the jail, right? Yep. So I had no bed. I had mattress on the floor. No niceness. All I had was my photos of my family. Right? My photos of my family. My, um, my Canadian bags. Yeah? All on the shelf. On the windowsill. And my mattress. That was it. I didn't want nothing else in myself. No cabinets. No telling. So I threw it all on the landing. Right? Now, these two screws, these screws used to come in myself. Look at my photos. Right? So one day I've come back and I've clocked him looking at my photos. So I walked and I said, what the fuck are you doing? I said, what? I said, what the fuck are you doing? Searched myself. You scumbag. Look at my photos. Like, they're there for you. They're not there for you. They're for me. They're my memories. You're fucking ratbag. Do the fucking cell. He's like, he talks to me like that. I said, what do you mean when I close the door? I said, what do you mean why? You're fucking squeak. You're fucking nonce. What are you looking at my pictures for? Do your job. Search myself. Your job is not to look at my fucking photos, you little mag. Now, how do we have him fuck off? So he's done what he's done because he's in my cell on his arm. Was that a basic mistake there? You don't fucking do that. You don't win a cell on your own. Why? He'll be doing LB. Why? For that reason. The other thing is, what if Marvin, I'm in a cell with him, comes out, he's touched my bollocks. What do I do? There's me and him in a cell. Yeah, but it's L... He puts himself in compromising position. Yeah, they are. Well, I used to do him on K-Wing. You're tag team. So I'd be there, see him do that, come out, I'd go in there and we did it like that. That, you do not leave. And he dropped the boll, shot the boll. I don't know what he done that. No, I mean, could he shut the door fully? No, no, no, no. No, right. So he had shot the boll. What does that mean? It just means putting a lock on him so Marvin can't shut the door. Keep him in there. They have privacy locks. When the cell's not locked, Marvin can shut his door and he has like a Yale. But my key overrides it. So if he wanted privacy, Sunday afternoon, he could just go in his cell, put privacy lock on. And other than an officer, no one's coming through his door. Did you have a cross paths in strange ways? I recognised his face when I saw him straight away. Because you were in for the Dale Craiging thing and you were working there with Dale Craiging. What did you think of Dale Craiging? Me? Bully. He was a weak person, you know. I'm going to say this now because again, this is important. Obviously the staff had got no liking. We had, or strange ways before my time, had a member of staff who was to do with what happened. Yeah, so they, you know, it was a bad thing. He killed two young girls. He killed the other two guys and he killed two young girls. Right? Defenseless. Defenseless. He handed his cell thing. Yeah? 99% of prisoners thought he was a scumbag. Listen, I'm going to interject there. Do you know why I got Nick for that? No. What did you get Nick for Marvin? A conspiracy to murder first. Right, okay. And then assisting the offender. Right. Because see the phone he walked into the police station on. Yeah. That was my mate's dad's phone. When he handed his cell thing. Yeah. What he done? He's gone to someone. Right. This is what happened. Right. There's a guy in, there's an informant, a paid police informant that lives in Herne Bay. Right. He lives on number five. I can't remember the name of the street. Right. So he lives on number five. My pal, lives at number four. Commincidence, right? That they lived next to each other. Yeah, yeah. Commincidence. Right. So my pal was having a, a farewell party for his brother. He was going into the army three years going abroad, Iraq or Iran or something like that. And he was giving a farewell party for him on the 19th for this month. I was going down there to do that. So that was my person in Herne Bay. Right. Now I didn't know fucking Dowell Cregan was seeing people in Herne Bay. Right. Where is it up Marvin? I'm not down near Dover. Right. Down near Dover. So basically what's happened was Dowell Cregan's got a relationship with his geezer, giving him food or drugs or whatever. And his geezer owes him 25 grand. I didn't know this at all. Anyway, what happened, Dowell Cregan sent Jermaine Ward to look for me in Liverpool. And they found out where, because my cousin took Jermaine to one of my cousin's friends' houses one time in Liverpool without me knowing. Because Liverpool is sacred. So my family is sacred. No one knows where my family live in Liverpool. But my cousin took Jermaine around one of the people's houses to get a draw one day. And Jermaine's remembered where this house was. So he's come back there to look for me. I'm in my cousin's house around the corner, just by chance. Right. But it's not chance, it's all written. So I'm around my cousin's house having a chat. All of a sudden the phone's gone. Someone's here looking for Marvin. What? What do you mean someone's looking for me? Who is it? Who is it? Ask them who it is. Jermaine. So I thought Jermaine. That's Lee. Lee. That's Dowell. That's Dave. They're Dowell's people. Because I met Lee Kelly through a guy called Dave Campbell. Me and Lee and his family come really close after. Like I said, I know Lee Kelly. Yeah, yeah. But we come really close after all this. But before all this, basically what's happened, when Jermaine's turned up, I've instantly thought, well, hold on. Dave owes me 1.6 million quid. Right. He's trying to have me ironed out. Jermaine's turned up here. They're trying to iron me out. What's that mean, Killia? Kill me, yeah. They're trying to get me somewhere to kill me. They've got to be. Why is Jermaine turned up out of the blue? When Jermaine was linked to Lee. Right? So Lee, Jermaine, and Dowell, all friends with Dave. So I'm thinking, ah, they're sending someone to kill me. So I flopped on them and it was only Jermaine there. So I spoke to them and said, ah, I think he wants to speak to her. I said, for what? He said, ah, something's happened. So I said, what is it that's happened? He said, ah, we'll cut the shootings, cut this, cut that. I weren't really paying attention. I said, well, look, if he wants to see me, I'm going to Dover next week or the week after or the week after. I can't remember the date. But I'll give him the date, the 19th, we're going to Dover. I've got to go over there. Cut a very long story short. I met him. I had a conversation with him. And then he said, I said to him, what's the problem, Dowell? He said, ah, I need you help. I said, to do what? He said, getting out of the country. So I was like, Is this after the two short shootings? The two shorts, yeah. The two shorts, right? So Dave and Mark Short have been killed, right? So now he needs to get out of the country. I was like, mate, do you know what? I'm not in it. I'm not in it. I said, what's happened with these two people anyway? Because obviously it weren't that. I don't watch the news and I'm not on the radio and I'm not a normal person at that stage in my life. So I'm not looking for bulletins. I'm not listening to the radio. I never really heard what was going on in Manchester, right? So then basically when he said to me, ah, yeah, well, I'll shot a couple of gigs. I was like, yeah, and? He said, ah, but I'm pleased. And then he went, ah, hang grenades. I was like, say that again. He was like, hang grenades. I said, what about hang grenades? He was like, ah, I threw a couple of hang grenades. I was like, ah, who? He was like, well, one of the gaffin, one of the... I said, are you fucking mad? I said, do you know you're a terrorist now, isn't it? He was like, what? I said, do you realize you're a terrorist now? Like, that's a terrorist act, bro. Like, that's not healthy. Why have you come to me? Like, and then I've sort of got paranoid thinking, do you know what? I said, do you know what? I said, come round here. We were standing on the beach, right? So I said, come round here, come round here. So I took him into my mate's ass. Little did I know that his mate lived next door to my mate. I didn't know that. Right? So then basically, I've said to him, look, you're mad. You ain't gonna know it. Fucking hand yourself in or do something because you're fucked. Right? Go and see Dave. You're gonna get out of the country. I can't get involved in it. I said, but what I'd advise you to do is let Jermaine go. Because Jermaine, it's a liberty what you're doing. He's gonna go and get a lump of bird. He ain't done the fuck all wrong. You're not just bullying him. I mean, let him go. He was like, well, I said, no, you need to let him go. And when he goes, you need to tell the police that they've bullied you, mate. And they've made you do this. You don't want to be here, do you? You know you're gonna get 30 years to this. And he's like, I just want to go on. I said, let him go. They said, well, go on then. I said, well, you come with me and hand yourself in. But when he hand himself in, he couldn't tell the police what I told him. I told him just tell them that he kidnapped you. They told you that they're gonna kill you. They don't do nothing. If you don't do nothing, they're gonna shoot your family. You're under duress. You've done it. You can't do it. So he got 36 years to pull a gun. They did? Yeah, he got 36 years. Oh, I can hear you. They all got 36 years. 36 plus 33 plus. I feel sorry for his mum. Anyway, because when they've turned up in Liverpool, I'm just thinking, yeah. So then basically what Dahl's done, yeah, after I've said that I can't help you, I've talked to Jermaine with me, he's gone and handed him in. Dahl's obviously gone back down to Herm Bate to speak to this geezer about his money. Right? Because this is what got me out of the case because I've got the agreed facts in the case, right? They said the person couldn't be named, couldn't be prosecuted and couldn't be blah, blah, blah. But he confirmed that he owed Dahl Quiggan 25 grand. Dahl Quiggan was there to collect this money. Right? So he didn't have to go to this... Because the police's evidence was that we're in the back end of nowhere and he had no reason to be in Herm Bate but to be with Marvin Herbert. And that was why they arrested me. Right? So when he's finished with his meeting there, he's thought, ah, let me knock on the door. Can you get a message to Marvin for me? Ah, we ain't seen him, we ain't seen him. Because my mate said to me, you know your mate's not around here and I was like, for what? So he was just asking to get hold of you. I said, just don't give him no, nothing. He was like, oh, all right, sweet. But what he'd done, he'd nicked my mate's phone off the side. Right? Knicked the phone off the side. And I was like, yeah, sweet, sweet, sweet. Now, with hindsight, I know I'm thinking he must have nicked the phone to see if my name is in the contacts. Do you know what I'm saying? He's nicked the phone anyway and that's the phone he handed himself in, in the police station. So when you think about intentions, right? Now, you're going to go and hand yourself in for two murders on police officers. You've already been given the information months ago, right, that you're a terrorist and you're going to get ironed out on site or you're going to spend the rest of your life in prison. You've been told that, right? By me, I've told him that, right? You've got a phone in your pocket that you know you've taken from my mate's ass. You know you've took it, you know you've took it from my mate. You know you've took it from my mate's ass. You fucking know you took it from my mate's ass. So you feel the best thing to do is make a phone call to somebody who knows I don't fucking know while you're walking into the police station to hand yourself in for two murders. Well, four murders now. Oh, yeah, yeah. Why would you go into the police station with the phone that connects me to you? Is that a setup? Of course, man. From day one, that's what I've said all along and I've said it to the police. It's a fucking liby. And you could have got 36 years through that? I could have got more than 36 years because I would have been up as a major player. I would have been... You could have got all the life like Greg and never getting out. Watch this, right? Because how are those trying to... The... The extradition order said that I was the boss of an organisation that ordered the assassination of two people. So I wasn't getting arrested, yeah, for the police officers. I was getting arrested for Dave and Mark Shaw, right? And then the police officers happened, I think. I'm not critical to the chronological order. But yeah, when the extradition order was for... No, it was four murders. I was co-conspirator to four murders and their evidence was between the 1st and the 9th of May, yeah? I came back to England and orchestrated a plan to assassinate Dave and Mark Shaw. That's what they said, right? It wasn't true. What none of it was true is all bullets, all come out in the case, all come out in the paperwork. The moral of that conversation... What was the moral of that conversation then? Well, just speaking about what I'm being unpleasant. Yeah, about what he lied about being, like, a coward and that. Yeah, so, Dow, yeah, Dow, as purposefully, from my perspective... Is that you up? Yeah. He said lots of people up, didn't he? No, listen, do you know how many people got nicked? The reason why I've got the hat is the amount of people that got nicked that was coming in. I found the statement about the grass. Because I'm reading everyone's paperwork and I found this statement. What? He's a paid informant. He can't be named, can't be prosecuted and can't be ex-died or can't be something for... was it? He can't be named, can't be prosecuted, can't be named, can't be charged and cannot be prosecuted. Right? And he said that Dow Quiggan, he owed Dow Quiggan money and da-da-da-da. So all the evidence I had exonerated me. Because it proved that Dow Quiggan was a fucking no-good narcissist that come there, tried to get out of the way. Coward. Yeah, he's a coward. How did you... How does a prison officer treat people like that when they first came in? He's got to just treat them like a normal... Don't tell the head, I've got to be... Oh, right. Right, listen. Do you know what? Yeah, percent is all doing, but... It's wicked gloves. I'll tell you for why. Everyone's keeping it. Everybody, right, everybody, police and everyone, wants him to go to court. Yeah. So straight away... Let's talk about Quiggan. That's it. Even the nuns, they all get kid-gloved. They're all kid-gloved. The high-profile ones. Listen, they just get looked after. They get pampered like fucking... They get everything. Really? Yeah, they do. High-profile ones. They do, mate. Kid-gloves. And there's only a small percentage of these cunts that dig them out. Do you know what I mean? Like, even the nuns, the sickest nuns get treated like fucking worry. Why is that? Because they've got to protect them to get them to court. They don't want them to kill themselves and they don't want them to be killed. That's it. That's it. What do I mean? Can you imagine? Let's take Mark Bridger, fucking ate him, you know. Took that young lass and killed her. Horrible, horrible bastard. I ate him. End of... Imagine if he'd have killed himself in strange ways. Yeah. Fucking hell. It had been... It had been everywhere. Press. No brainer. And like, you know, Marvin says... Fucking good! Good! Well, yeah. Good! Let them kill themselves. That's what I don't get. Why the fuck are you protecting these scumbags? That's the system. No. Listen, listen. This is a system. Yeah. But the system works with its cogs. The cogs control the system. So if the cogs are not prepared to do what they have to do to make the machinery work better, then it's the cogs fucking responsibility. Put the cunt down. Like, you're quick enough to kill fucking powerful inmates that fucking drive you mad for years. They've killed about four of my pals in prison. Do you know what I mean? I'm not saying he has possibility, but the fucking system have killed him. And they put behind fucking bullshit and say, no, he hung himself, or he killed himself. He cut his wrist. No, they don't, mate. They don't. The fucking screws do it. The screws do it. My pal would never have killed himself. Well, it's like... It's like, you heard me killing... Imagine you hearing, I've killed myself. Marvin got nicked last week, but he killed himself. You're not gonna say to know what. He couldn't have handled it. He must have thought his world would have been over. His life fucked. You know that ain't gonna be me. You're gonna think, do you know what, the early fucking fucking chance Marvin had had, mate? He's gonna look for it. He ain't gonna kill himself. There's certain people, you know, won't kill himself. One of my pals killed himself, right? And I'd never believed prior to him killing himself, he would have killed himself. But after he killed himself, everything in his life made sense to me and I've realized why he killed himself because outside, yeah, outside, outside. He comes to me one day and he said to me, the penny never dropped at this specific moment in time, right? But after he killed himself, it dropped. He comes to me one day and said, do you know what it is with you, Marv? I said, what is that, June? He said, I try every day 100% to act like the man you are naturally. And it's fucking hard. It does my thing. How are you, you? How do you do this shit? How does it affect you? I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about? You fucking lunatic. And I never, I never twigged. I never twigged. I never paid attention. I never embraced it. I never engaged with it. You're an idiot. What do you mean? Fucking how do I do it? You're an idiot. But just do what we do in it, you fucking prick. And I went out of my business. Two months later, he killed himself, jumped in front of a fucking train. Do you know what I mean? Like, rest his soul. June McDonough. June McDonough. Like, and I could never see it prior to that. But with that happening, I sort of, you see, you see vulnerabilities in people now. I see the vulnerability in people now. Obviously, now I'm a mature dad, soon to be grandfather. Congratulations. No, no. It's not cool. I'll put me like that. Because I want one. I want to be a granddad. My kids are not spitting them out, you know what I mean? Fucking imagine, Marvis, you have granddad. Imagine being granddad. And it's Christmas jumper. He's matured now, man. I'm hoping he matures even more. I'm going to be an exceptional granddad, man. What was it like being away for your first ever Christmas? Can you remember in prison? See, this is the thing. With me, I just made the most of it. I made the most of it. I made the most of it. Is it sad? Yeah, but I've done it. Do you know what? Or do you just get the blinkers on and pretend it's fine? You get out of your nut, get drunk, have a laugh, have a row with the enemy. They're the cunts. So fucking, do you know what I mean? Christmas day you come out, you're waiting for an oven. Say one word, cunt. Say one word. Yeah? I want to go block for New Year. I'll see you. I'll see New Year here with a bang. Yeah? You fucking rat. But Christmas day, I don't want to fight. I don't want to get a busted nose. They don't want it. They don't want it. So I could get away with murder. Yeah? How was it for yourself? You're working, taking yourself away from the family? Right, cliche. People can say, you know, you can go on the end of the day. Do you know what? Every Christmas is miserable. I chose to work Christmas day. The reason I did that, I'll ask my mum and dad, we go there for Christmas. If you're off Christmas day and in boxing day, because it's a shit job and the shit shifts. Yeah? The thing is, you know, nobody wants to be there on Christmas day. Prisoners, pretty much. Didn't come across many marvings. Like fuck. Like fuck. No. The thing was, a lot of people are down. They want a phone call. They want to scram. Very solemn. You know, it is a fucking sad time. So many sure seeds in that on Christmas day. Many? Yeah. Not so much. Not so much. Everyone's going to be too busy to make themselves feel good. You know what? You know what? I can only speak. The wings I worked on when we were on health care, we tried our best. When we were on K-wing. What the fuck? Problem! We tried our best. Right. It's a very solemn time. We nearly had a, there was potential for a couple of wires at Strangeways and I'll tell you for why. I'll tell you for why. One was a scram and the other was a phone call. So, I had a lad, a young lad. Just, just wait a minute Marvin. You've had plenty of spare time. Fuck off away. I was going to say, I've got a Christmas story. I've got a minute mate. So, Happy one. Mine are happy stories. Yeah, mine are happy endings. Mine are happy endings. So, we're on K-wing, right? There's a young lad. Young lad, got a young message, young kid. And from when he's landed, if we're on Tuesdays landing, with me and Nobby Nobler, I called him in the book. Fantastic fucking officer. Every day, Mr. Samworth, he phoned me, phoned me, phoned me. He won a credit. Somebody's sent him a postal order. Yeah. So, in Marvin mate, so I'd already had a word with your mate, Mr. Burt, who was a fantastic manager, a big shouty guy, but he was brilliant. Yeah. I said, Listen, this kid, Christmas Day, if his money aren't landed, yeah, can we give him a phone call? Fuck it now. You know. But, he says, he's off to our future twat. That's what I used to get called all the time. Which I was good with. So, let me tell you how mail works, because again, this is a little thing, this, but people don't realise, it's that simple. Mailroom, at strange ways, off-size of this, yeah? Correspondence. Correspondence are the people who check mail. You know, so no one's putting a kilo of weed in Marvin's letter and shit like that. So, mail, because in a room, they run drugs, dogs bite, but what happens is, it's not organised, there's no rotor, yeah? So, during the week, in a normal, a normal up-to-Christmas, there might be three bags. They'll get through three bags of mail a day. There might be three or four staff there checking it, yeah? Christmas, I've seen mailroom, rammed. Yeah? So, the mail that they're checking is the mail that's come today. Because the bag with a post-loader for the kid in is at the back. There's 60 bags in there. Yeah? So, that's how it works. It's that simple. He hadn't had mail. His mate, who's got mail today, only got sent yesterday. That's how it works. It's as simple as that. There's no organisation. Can officers fuck about with people's mail at Christmas? I know people... They do! They do! Calm down. Listen, we'll talk about that in a minute. You're having a good Christmas story and I'm gonna take him back to K-Wing 213. So, this day, yeah, Christmas fucking day, so it's solemn. So, we've unlocked people out coming out. I was in there! I was in there Christmas! I was in there at Christmas! I went back... The last one? Yeah, about 2014. Christmas, yeah. Right, we're talking about two, five, two, six, two, seven now. Alright. So, I take preference. Yeah. Right, so, this lad comes walking down landing with a letter with a postal order. Right? So, I know what's happened. Literally, they can't have checked the mail because what happens with postal orders? Write in a little book Postal Order for Smith or Herbert or Marvin or whatever. Yeah, psycho. Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! Don't squeeze my letter! Call me Marvin. You've got to call me Herbert. Why? Because you can't be personal with Marv. Why are you calling Marv and you've come? Call me that again, I'll smash your feet in. Don't distract him! Go on, it's gone. So, this lad comes down, so far, right, and then another lad, Mr. Samworth, Mr. Samworth, Mr. Samworth they're all walking out landing with fucking postal orders, mate. None at postal orders have been taken out. The lad's want, Christmas Day, is a scran, yeah, and to phone the family, that's it. They're going to sell, they might have a shower, they might have a game of pool, it's a quiet day, it's a solemn date, shit. Nobody wants to be there. We ended up with over 200 postal orders, 200 on-wing, some people got four letters with four post lords. You know lads that had money sent in regular? Yeah. So I said to Bertie Bassett, he's like fucking pulling his air out, well, not literally because he didn't have none. It looked like but he was a nice lad. So I says what we're going to do? He says, right, get on to pin phones, pin phone system in jail. You know, you can get credit on the SO add a pin, which is a number I can put in. So, if your mum's ill or dying in hospital or, you know, Marvin, whatever, whatever's going on, I can put this pin in and you can have a call and wear a pain for it. Yeah? So he says to me, Bertie Bassett, put 100 quid on. OSG at other end, that's not a prison officer. It's like someone who does the sort of clerical jobs with it. The assist prison officers, it's a job that needs doing. So this knob end on other end, I said put us under, you're not getting no fucking credit on your pin phones Christmas day. And he puts the phone down on me. Now I've got 100 lads who wants to phone a family who've got no money on their account. Yeah? Bertie Bassett gots involved. We marches down there's a senior officer and this guy, this knob end, giving it the big licks. Incidentally, this senior officer, yeah, is a cock. He's worked with prisoners for about two months of his career. He's been in 20 years. He's an absolute bell-end. He doesn't have talk to staff and certainly, you know, Marvin a bit, banging him out, giving him one of them. Bertie Bassett dragged him out colds, get credit on. So he gets back on wing. Yeah? So time's gone on a bit now. It's like dinner. After dinner, I've told them all, two or three minutes each, there's a lot of you. So after dinner, we unlocked orderly queues and it's not usually orderly but bin phones like and they all got to call everybody. That's all they wanted. Nice and organized. They were all settled, boom, got the scram. So that's that sorted, yeah? That could have been potentially a riot at that. Yeah? They were lads on that wing. That's all they want to do. Really solemn day, speak to the family. Now I'm going to come to the legendary fish curry that I talk about in my book that got so many people that strange way is upset. Cleaning officer, what's a cleaning officer, Marvin? What do you mean? What's a cleaning officer in prison? Come on, you know what a cleaning officer is? No? Come on. Have you ever been a cleaner in prison? You are you! You are, aren't you? No, no, no, you're not taking over the store. You've been a cleaner, aren't you? I've been. I'll ask you after. No, I'll tell you, all the oddbusters and nut jobs have been cleaners at some point. You see, I was the administrator for the cleaner. So basically, I'd get people cleaners jobs, but I was one of the people that was that much of a handful that they give you a little job. I should create jobs for other people. I say, go, go, go, go, go, go. Mate, he's been banged up. He's probably busted. Couldn't you let him out and do a bit of cleaning and then do the showers, please? Right, they go, yeah. So I was a cleaner. I had a job, but I used to get other people out of their cells to do the jobs that I was supposed to do so I could cook for the food boat that I had. That was how I was. That's how we used to work. Fish curry. Right. God. Nobody wants fish curry in prison. Was that Christmas? Yeah, Christmas day. Yeah, fucking Christmas day. So the day before, as a cleaning officer, you look after the survey where you serve food to people. Yeah. And you look after the cleaners. Fish curry? Yeah, just Christmas. Exactly. See now what I'm saying. I was already getting angry. I was just talking about Christmas dinner. Are you going to let me finish this? So excellent at Marvin. You know, you can have your fiver after. That's what I wanted that reaction. So as cleaning officer, I would order the food for the following day. Christmas Eve, I'd been off. So two pens. Yeah, as we called him. It was a nice lad. He was on my course. I like him. He's a postman now. And I wish him all the well. But sometimes it was a bit of a dick. Yeah. So it was a shit screw. Shit screw. It was just... It wasn't quite... We called him two pens. Back in the day, prisoners like Marvin, all of them had a file. Yeah. So I very rarely wrote prisons up. If I had a bit of a, you know, he's a bit pissed off or whatever. You'd just let it go. Two pens would write everything down. Everything. That's why they called him two pens. You know, he's... It was a bit of a jobs whiff. Anyway, Christmas Day, he's already said it, right? He has ordered K-wing 200 prisoners. So me, I'd have ordered 160 Christmas dinners. Yeah. You order some halal meals for your Muslims. Maybe 30. Maybe some booty pack. Some people will only eat busses in jail. It's mad. Yeah? So, it's about 11 o'clock. Donner in the kitchen. Donner. Let me tell you about Donner. Lovely lass. Good grafter. Now, and again from K-wing, we used to work in kitchens. When I said work in kitchens, I work cooking, you'd go on supervised. And they used to ask you to sit in the stores at the back. And then she might ask me to just get the lads to empty the bins or whatever. I'd do anything for anybody, me. She was a nice lass. Somebody once said to me, they messaged me on social media, they were very rude. They said, Donner wouldn't have done this. She wouldn't give you the steam off her piss. And the type of officer he was, I pretty much said, well, you're a fucking prick. You know, if you teach people right. So it's 11 o'clock, so I've phoned Donner. What is my order? So two pens ordered a day before. 160 fish curry. Christmas day. 160 fish curry. Minging at the best of times. So it goes to Bertie Bassett, who's on again. He went fucking space. He says you better get it sorted. I've got all the cleaners, all the servery workers. Yeah. Every cell on K-wing. Gotta tell everyone. Two pens. I'm not hiding people away. He's done this. And it's no fucking joke. He's incidentally off now for about five days. So I phoned Donner. 160. I said, Donner, what are you doing? It's Christmas day. She went, I've seen it. I didn't understand it. I says, you can't send me 160 fish curry. So the cleaners, we sent them out on the server. I said, go to every cell, tell them to crack. At the moment, everyone's getting fish curry. Yeah? Tell them I'm going to do what I can. Yeah? You know, we've been add off here. Now, one of the officers who got really upset about this story and he said it never happened, whether he means the riot never happened, because if Marvin had come out on the servery and had offered him fish curry, he'd have been down the block after, you know, taking a few people out maybe. Yeah? If I went down there and there was a... Well, I would have just flipped the whole fucking shit up. There you go. I would have just flipped it up. I would have... What? You're fucking... They wouldn't have been able to serve another person after me that food. There you go. Is that prison officer done something like that because of people at Marvin, though? That prison officer is absolutely fucking... He's not thought... He's probably thought that he's funny. He has thought, surely. Well, listen, let me tell you that. Fucking fish curry. He's making that up. It's not even a chicken curry. It's a fish curry. Now, you go and understand. 90% of people from Manchester don't eat fish. Yeah? Unless it's from a chip. You know what I mean? No. No, right. The older people, like the mums, the dads, the nannies and granddaughters, they don't have fish because there was an ostentatious kind of meal back in the day, fishing chips. Coming out of the war, the 70s, the 80s, fishing chips were big, yeah? You go to the chip shop, people eat fishing chips, but predominantly in Manchester, no, I'm not... I can only say what I see. So when I've been around Manchester, they love unhealthy food. They love junk food. So a fish curry, fish curry in Manchester, Christmas dinner. Can I have it back now? Can I have it back? Right. So listen, so I'm downstairs. Fish curry? I'm downstairs. Other than the S.O., yeah? It would have been off. Nobody has been downstairs. Yeah, one of two staff knew what were happening. The officer who got really upset about his story, when he said it never happened, I don't know whether he means the fish curry, you know, because he was upset. Oh, can I just interrupt? Did they get Christmas dinners? Did they get Christmas dinners? Are you going to let me finish the story? I'll see what's going on. Yeah? He's upstairs having a brew, because he's on an early shift. He's going home. The fucking stress. I was stressed to fuck. Yeah, but I told him, go and tell him two pens has ordered this. Donner, I said, you can't do that, love. I'll do what I can. Right? Now, I've got 200 prisons here. So, food come. Yeah? I've had lads off K-wing tell me who were on at this time, and they've told me what they had. In the book, I got it wrong. We did have fried eggs now and again when they were short of food. They sent fried eggs. You don't get fried eggs in prison, do you? No. But what she did, she sent everything that was left over from Christmas dinner she possibly could. So, there might have been a bit of meat, you know, a bit of turkey. When I say turkey, it's like polyphony, you can see through it. It's like the cat chicken, the turkey, like you're getting a package. Yeah, process. Process. Right? But, you know, there might have been some left-legged chicken. Left-legged chicken. That's the fucking... Right, listen. Anyway, she sent what she could. There was shitloads of food. The fish curry weren't off bad. A lot of lads took that. The plates were full. Everyone who'd come down, I told them, yeah, we made sure that the lads come out last because we used to rotate how we fed people, obviously 200. Everybody was happy. Everybody left with plates of food. Donna did us proud, yeah. But that potentially, you know, it's all right looking now, that is what I would have been facing. The lads and lasses upstairs, although some of them supportive, were out of it, it could have been a fucking riot at that, mate, as easy. The curry was ever sped pissing somebody's dinner if you didn't leave them. I wouldn't do that. No, but did that happen? If it hadn't happened in front of me, I can't say. However, you know, I'm going to take you back again the fact that we're talking about bad shit. Two pens fucked me right out. I haven't finished up. Bertie Bassett, yeah, he saw him before me because of our shifts I didn't see him for two weeks. But Bertie Bassett told him in no uncertain terms that when he saw me if he made a laugh or joke about it or whatever and I fucking filled him in, yeah, then it was his own fault because it could have caused the fucking riot. Do people... So it wasn't a riot? No. Marvin, the all I'm playing for... I'm not even a fucking riot, mate! I'm not even a fucking riot. I'm not even a fucking riot, mate! I'm not even a fucking riot! This, this, that, that was... It's safe to riot. That's stupidity. That fucking phone call but lots of people got upset because it didn't happen. How many Christmases have you gave up your life to work in prison? All of them. 15, two-week kids' home and four in forensics. Have you got kids? One. Youngster, yeah. Some of them... This is the thing that I don't get. I never used to get. Right? Why? Would you take a job like that? Right. Marvin, when I got into it started down that route. I was a single lad. Well, I understand, right? So I understand it. Don't get me... I'm not confused. No, no, no. I'm going to tell you. The prison officers usually... This is from my sort of... What's it called? When you're observation. Right. So normally, what happens is this, right? You've got three forms of prison officers. Right? Just the three. Go on. This is my perspective. No, that's cool. Right? So you've got... You've got the kids from school that have been bullied. Right? And they want to get their own back. So they become prison officers. Right? On the naughty kids. And then you've got kids that wanted to be police officers. Then you've got the kids that have left the army. So there are three different types of men. Right? The army, it'd be like the army man. Right? I would have booked him if someone had been in the army because the army people talk to people. They want to get involved. They don't look down in those at people. Yeah? The bullies, the ones who've been bullied, they hate the hard nuts. So they instigate stuff. Do you know what I mean? Right? So there's three different forms of prison officers that you've got to be wary of. Do you know what I mean? But I never had a problem with any officer because they're doing a job. I just had a problem with the way they treated me. I felt I owned the place. I felt I owned the space. And I felt I was in time to do what I wanted. And if you never let me do what I wanted, then you was my enemy personally. And that was just mobbing up. Yeah, that was how I was made. I'm saying to you. So why did you take the job? I just don't understand. It sounds like a fucking tough job. No, no. I'm going to tell you. I'm going to tell you on this now. Right? I won't mention my daughter's name. I won't embarrass her if she ever sees this in. I'll ask Amy, right? Love her to bits. So what I have realized now, why did I take the job? At the time, I've been an engineer in 23 years. Before I left, I was bouncing. I was teaching a Roman therapy in the community. Yeah. And I was doing massage, not that sort of massage. I've got it. We've had this before. All right. You remember, Dave? Don't throw me under the bus. Okay. So I'm doing three jobs and I'm feeling, I've done 23 years in engineering. I'm saying, you walked in as my masseuse, but I've been thinking, what the fuck have you been eating? You had seen me Sunday best. I said, you tired gear on. So, I'm at a bit of a loss. Imagine turning up with a load of lycra on today. But massage would be like... Listen, don't knock it, mate. Don't knock it. Don't get massed though. You don't need one. It's supposed to be Christmas. Come on. That's why we're laughing, mate. Come on, man. Right, so, I'm at a loss. So, let's pause. I wanted something different. Have you ever been like, I wanted to challenge myself. I wanted to do something different. I obviously had thoughts about it. I've told you, when I was sat at Forrest Bank waiting for my job interview, outside walls, I would shit myself, I'd be honest. You know? How long did you start as a prison officer for? Three years first by 11 at Strangeways 14. Kids' own... Fuck! Kids' own two years in between. Right, so, I want to ask you a question now. I want to ask you a simple question. Yeah. I want you to answer it within three seconds. Right? Do you think you wasted your opportunities in life being a prison officer? No. Because my nan always said to me, better to regret having done something than regret not ever done it. I spoke on the way down. Them experience have got me where I am now. But you could ask you the same, but going back to Marvin, do you do you feel as if you've wasted your life being in prison? Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Why did you want to be a criminal? Because I didn't know any better. But I actually believe I've wasted my whole entire adult, childhood, adolescence and adult life. I've wasted it all because of what I was doing it for. I was doing what I was doing to be successful. Because I never had any other avenues or options. But because of my experiences, because of my prison sentences and because of my sort of environment, I've actually had enough of it all. Tired and? It's just, it's draining. I don't want to get emotional. Right? But it's, no, don't. You'll set me off. And it's the thing to, sometimes I've felt it coming in your nose. Yeah. It's just, the mad thing about, because it's Christmas, I'm going to cry Christmas. But what you've got to understand is the mad thing about it is the pain that you've got to, like the Christmases, the holidays, the birthdays. It's okay, me saying, yeah, we've done it, we lived it, we breathed it, we made fun of it. I was going to tell you the story about the biggest, the best Christmas dinner we've ever had. So, when you reflect back on the pain and the damage you've caused, it's not, I'm talking about what we got through. And it was easy getting through things. It was happy getting through things. It was happy smoking drugs. It was happy getting what you wanted, juggling, grafting, making money. It was happy doing that because that was dealing with that situation. But what we were creating was the trauma to deal with later, which we wasn't aware of. So, because I've come through all that life trying to become successful, I've devastated my kids, my family, my mum, my dad, my aunties. All right, Dave was all at it, but the devastation that I could, the devastation I did cause where I didn't have to. Imagine if I'd become a professor, I would have become a multi-billionaire. I would have got all my family out of everything. If I'd have become straight, legitimate, early on, and made waves in the business world, I would have been a millionaire by the time I was 21. Guaranteed. Do you understand? I know that. I would have been so successful being legitimate, but I made the wrong choices. So, when I look back, I just resent the fact that I wasn't educated enough to make the right choices. Now, I don't regret what I've been through, right? Because of where I'm going and what I've achieved. Right? But I regret not having a proper life. I regret, like, not having nice Christmases, not being there for my kids. You know, like, all them things you regret, all that sort of stuff. But... Oh! I'm having... Do you know what, mate? You asked me the question about, you know, why would you have kids? I'll tell you now, obviously, I could go home that day. I worked 60, 70 hours a week at Strangeways, pretty much every week, for 11 years. Yeah. I'm just now, I'll ask Amy, bless her. She suffered prison widow. Yeah. I was not nice when I come home. I always said I left it at gate. Yeah. She didn't have... She spent lots of time on her own with my daughter. Yeah. My daughter, I didn't see for five, six years. She went, I couldn't understand. Why would you fucking do that? Because at the time you don't see it, mate. You don't. The same way we never see it being criminals, you don't see it being fucking officers. No, you don't. Listen, let me tell you now. It's on the video. I'm saying to you, it's the same principle. It is. It's the same principle. You don't see it with your ignorance. So, because I never see it, I thought I was right. I thought I was being good. I thought I was being successful. I thought I was being all of the above. I didn't realize of the trauma that I've got to speak to my kids now. I didn't realize that to tell my kids, I'm sorry that I've ruined your life. I'm responsible for what you've been through. I'm sorry I haven't been there. I'm sorry I haven't been the perfect dad. I can't make that time back or make it up, but I can make a difference now. So, if you want to work with me, work with me, if you don't want to work with me, there's nothing I can do about that. But I'm here, I'm your dad and I love you more than anything. But what I don't understand is why you'd actually choose to go and get a job that keeps you away from your family for so long. I chose my life because of circumstance. Right? You fell into it really, didn't you? No, I never fell into it. I was born into it. That's what I mean it was like. I was born into it. So, my mum was a, my mum was a very, my mum was a hustler. She was a female hustler that hustled her way through. She worked as well as hustled, but she was a hustler and my dad was a drug dealer and a gambler. And my mum hustled, she stole, we fed, we smoked drugs together, we smoked drugs together. So, my mum was, my mum was like my best mate growing up. Do I understand you? My older story, what was you talking about? It's just gone. You talk about what you fell into and why I would choose a job like that. So, basically growing up as a kid, I was shoplifting with my mum at four or five years of age. I was smoking drugs with my mum at 13, 14 years of age. Do you understand? So, I didn't have any normal upbringing. I didn't have any normal understanding of life. My understanding of life was what I was doing. So, when my dad burnt my hand over the fire and beat me, yeah, for stealing a wriggly spearman gum, three packets of wriggly spearman gum and a star bar, I couldn't understand it. And this is where the hatred come from from my dad because I'm thinking, you're burning my hand. I'm only doing what my mum does. Mum, I'm doing what my mum does. In my head, I was just fucking confused. I'll do this with my mum. Why are you doing this? You're my dad. Why are you doing that? At that age, you're just confused. And then it must be, my mum's right. He must hate me. Because now I'm getting information. Your dad don't love you. He don't like you. He likes his horse. He likes his horse. That's all he wants. So then, when my dad does these sort of things, whereas in retrospective, nah, I see my dad don't want me to end up like my mum. My dad don't want me to end up like my cousins. My dad, so he's trying to prevent this stuff from happening. Tough love. But he just didn't know how to do it. And that's what I've realised now with old rage. You know what I'm saying? So, it's just the damage we cause. And we, I fell into that life, but I never chose to come out of it. I never chose to come out of it. I chose to live it. Yeah. Whereas, I'll tell you what, I need a new job. I'll tell you what. Ah, that looks all right. What's that? I've got to work 365 days in the prison. I think I'm going to do that. I just don't understand it. Like, with hindsight now, I started to understand people. So, people that is a caring person. So, the reason why I take a job in the prison is to help people. I don't see that because everything's got to be a benefit because of the program that my brain's got. Yeah, everything we do, we've got to benefit from. So, what are you going to benefit from working in the prison? You're going to be away from your family and so on. You've got to be crooked. If you're not crooked, what is it? I don't see that empathy or helping mechanism because helping people is making money with them. Helping people ain't changing their mind or supporting them. That ain't where my brain is. My help is money. My help is products. My help is weapons. Do you understand? Because that's the mindset I used to have. So, when you think, well, why are you going this job for? It's just shit wages. You're away from your family. Wow. But somebody has to do it in fair play if they're doing it in fair play. How does it feel that Sam has a good guy and I've known for a long time now that has Christmas days coming in and if you're on one and he's has to go home at Christmas night. How does that make you feel knowing that he's actually just out there to do a job because there is good prison officers out there. I just listen. I invite them all to my parties come and have a drink. Do you know what I mean? Come and have a drink. We're having a drink. Do you know what I mean? If you find a party up, there's going to be a problem. Do you know what I mean? So, I'll give you the Christmas dinner. So, we bring a bit of happiness to the situation. A bit of calm. A bit of calm. A bit of love. So, we're in and this is an officer helping out people in prison. So, this officer he got arrested with eight bottles of one and a half litre bottles of vodka one kilo of cannabis resin two mobile phones I think it was well, he never actually got charged with the MDMA heroin and crack because apparently someone chopped the one of the bars in half dug out the hole and then filled the hole and then stuck the bar back together so they might not have found it I think they did find it but they might have given him a squeeze but that was how the parties used to come in before so we had the class everything. So, on Christmas day we got dinner. I think how many people? I think 18 people we've done Christmas dinner for this day so basically what is coming up to Christmas day I'm asking all the chaps on the wing because you can cook what Nick Marvin just explain because a lot of people like strange ways kitchens but we're in we're in Swellside which is a category B trainer stroke it's like it's like where you're going to go if you're going to be a cat A prisoner or where you go when you're coming down from being a cat A prisoner so it's like the the turning point for your categorization within the prison system after after Swellside you'll have again dispersal which is all cat A or you're going C cat or D cat so it's like it's a weird prison like it's got the A cat prisoners in there that come off the book or they're going to get styled up and get put on the book where you arrive about it's just a wild environment it's just crazy like the stabbings I've been I think there have been a couple of killings in there like I guess I know got stabbed straight through the neck other people I know been plunged up it's just a crazy joke so basically I was a very violent individual so when I was in prison I had certain rules on the wing and da da da da so anyway how long story short this officer got nicked with the puff but prior to the new years because that was 2006 I think it was he got arrested coming through the gate on the 6th of January so the Christmas party that would add prior was how do I remember it so I had we had believe it or not we had roast chicken leg of lamb joint of beef turkey chicken leg of lamb roast beef turkey and then in between one bit of meat there'd be roast potatoes in between the other bit of meat there'd be broccoli and then other greens all the way down there I think everyone knows the tables that you get in prison so you get a table with six people on it so then we had I think six of them tables lined up in the TV room so you got a long table with other food you had meat potato veg meat potato veg meat potato veg meat potato veg meat potato veg and then all the desserts cooked up people in there cooked cakes so we had all these spread up we had each table each chair had a little bucket next to it because we had I think it was 12 litres of uch so everyone around the dinner was drinking uch and then the heads of the table were drinking vodka because obviously vodka's a little bit too much to share about we're out in the whole prison so we're drinking vodka a couple of people drinking and we've had our dinner so we're in there all day eating celebrating a couple of screws come in said do you want to have something to eat they're like nah but we're in there just eating drinking having a great time like you can't you can't imagine it you just got a bead edge you know what I mean but it was like a banquet it was like a proper table full of food all the most sensible people on the wing sitting round and do you know what the comments are going to talk for themselves because you'll see because people are going to be saying bruv I'm telling you I heard about it because my food boat was called the Titanic in swell size and when I got moved there that's when they said that's when they said the Titanic sunk that was a running joke and I left the joke because I got goaded out there because Martin Nelson the officer and if you look him up on the internet you'll see he got arrested he got two and a half years for bringing a kilo 998 grams of cannabis a few phones and stuff like that he was the number one governor's son two and a half years at all yeah but he's a fucking prison officer isn't he he's a prison officer mate so they're going to look after their own and he was the governor the number one governor's son he pleaded guilty he made him all the information they needed to give him so I mean he threw me to the wolves said I've been threatening him photos of his family brother and I intimidated him I've thrown him I've threatened him but I paid him £1,500 a month like go make sense does it no what am I going to threaten you about paying you £1,500 a month did you ever feel resentful that this did you even like the word screws prison officer like me I'm not asked yeah see when the screws were going home at Christmas night and that did you ever feel resentful that the bastard's say the morning cunt say the morning cunt did you ever feel like did you ever feel like did you ever feel sorry for anyone when you were leaving in Christmas if he says no I'd suffocate no no the word people I felt sorry for what did it work I was going to say I thought you said it I thought you said it in one no no you're mad can't you see him can't you hear him talk all he cares about is people which is what fucked me up yeah I can imagine I'll tell you what I think there is no prison officer who leaves that job without a fucked head some you know all time it's still going to get to them me well you know when you say I'm I don't like that word so reflection now I can look now 2020 back it's four years ago since I got finished yeah what I'm going to do my plan now it's about my family my daughter we miss this Amy put it all back I missed you're doing what I'm doing man I missed six years of my daughter right I'm not there I'm out of house at six I'm in it half nine ten she's in bed I know I was on the other side of the road did you banged up in your I was banged up I was banged up man we were there to give up to give up it is it is it's crazy isn't it yeah and the trauma he causes his kids his misses everything it's all the same I even put food on the table yeah but it's always you think you think you think that is you think it's right engineering I did long hours in engineering I did shit jobs but you know what I'm not thinking about a fucking million machine all night yeah I take the money you go out on pace you do whatever that job is just driving you don't think I used to say I've said it all the time I can see myself saying it and people I work with said it or you know I can do this job I leave it at the gate I don't take it home I bring a book out Ask Our Laster to do four pages array four saying how it was and I fucking did take it home it was obvious you know she spent all day picked daughter up get her in bed cooked me a nice meal you know make herself look nice bottle of wine and I'd walk in stinking as shit stinking as shit that smell in it sit on sati all night with fucking face on once she finished how's it really affected you mentally to be working in the prison me right obviously I did the book so I finished 2016 I got finished I went on sick 12 month I weren't treated well by the prison could I ask you a question yeah of course you can do you feel freer now do you feel free kind of only this year okay 2020 see what I mean 20 only this year Marvin so four years took the transition for you to it's not gonna listen man two hours maybe three hours I sleep at night if I have a drink I tell you what I do now I drop off I can go to bed and drop off that's the trauma of being a prisoner of course it is yeah listen this is what people don't realize about fucking prison right I was insane that's why are you siding with us none of what I'm saying you know it's just reality so I was insane I was literally insane like medically certified everything everyone that come across me said I was mad lunatic size of path loads of path all these fucking paths I was every fucking thing right that's why I sort of made that's why I wasn't that's why I'm not affected sort of emotionally everything I've been through because I was insane when I was doing it I don't even remember I don't remember 90% of the stuff I've done like people said do you remember do this I was like shut up like there's millions of things that I don't not remember because I was in my limbic state of mind when I done it did you block all that you don't block this one what happens when your brain functions right whenever you when you give every information right blood flows straight to your limbic system straight away now depending on how your programmed and how you're educated will determine how you react or respond so from a working class environment we will react to either defend ourselves or to protect ourselves whereas in a middle class environment they digest the information to see the benefit there's no benefit they don't react if there's a benefit they'll respond whereas we're not programmed the same way so our reactive stuff is instant boom so I was brought up in a very violent volatile environment and I grew with all that so my normal was being who I was and then because that normal sort of transcended into an insanity that was just my that was my normal it was my normal it was my normal so me attacking me kicking me that voice in your head right when someone says I'll just smash him in the face and people think I'll get nicked the difference is I might think that and it'd stay in your head I never had that voice to say I'm going to get nicked I just hear the voice just smash him in the mouth that's what I'm saying Marvin I'll just react most normal people would think like I'd think I've been in a situation yeah with somebody who's kicking off and I'm thinking right pre-emptive strike it's written into prism rules seeing our if I'm face to face with Marvin I think he's going to attack me you can get a punch in I don't know anyone's ever done that because they're fearful of being out at job for assault and also I've got in my head I've got someone stopping me obviously to the lads with me because I'm one of them aggressive people yeah you know they'll get away with that how many Christmases have you gave up in prison? 12 maybe 15 maybe more so you've basically gave up the same amount of Christmases I haven't had a Christmas since 2000 millennia was your hardless Christmas away? say I don't even remember the Christmas you don't remember them because all you're busy doing is making sure you've got your parcel just to forget it kind of block it out listen listen man you smoke weed every day you have a drink every other day every other weekend you get lagging drunk right? so it's just continued that same pattern do you know what I mean? that's all it is so you've got to just try to make your pattern on the street the same as in the street it's just how I basically dealt with prison resistance it's a what's it called? a it's like a you know you've got climates and little climates I forgot the name of it now fuck but it's like you've got society then you've got a micro-society that's it so prison is just a micro-society it's a smaller version of street but condensed into a very small space so I just want to be able to live so I'm in prison so I've got to live I want to live the best the same way I do on the out so how do I live the best I've got to have alcohol I need drugs I need drink I need bench screws I need it so that's what I focus on when I'm in prison I focus on anything else but that so I have no other memories of prison but try to graft and who I grafted with and what I got and where it went that was all I do and when it got disrupted yeah then basically what happened I was in the mount I was in the prison officer I'm in the man there's loads of kilos of puff getting fine over the wall so they ended up taking me off the wing for the I was the leader of the drug culture within the prison they got me down the block the governor told me he's going to keep me down the block over Christmas so I said well you're not he said well I am I said well you're not he said I am I said okay we'll see so then fun and games start now because he doesn't realise that I know the law about prison so basically what we've done I've got a load of kids to come over and they started firing bars bars of puff over the fence right so they're buying loads of puff over the fence whether it comes in or not it doesn't matter it costs me peanuts to come and be a friend over so what I had to do I had to put a new fence actually I've got two fences so now I have to put a third fence up to stop people catapulting the gear over so they might have started doing I started getting because they got me down the block I started getting all the people in the block like basically I get all the people in the block like maybe seven or eight people down the block so what I said bug or choice is it puff scag crack what is it it's usually puff and scag so puff and scag so not a problem yeah mate I don't need you to do me a favour right I'm going to give you half a gram of smack and an eight for puff if you flood yourself yeah so alright sweet so how do I flood it so you say right you've got a wet load of tissue and then from the lock from the lock on the door he's laughing from the lock on the door down to the floor across the door and up you block it with wet tissue right and then you've got to rip all the pipes off the wall and just leave it yeah if you do that for me I'll give you half I'll give you an half a gram or a gram of bran and an eight for puff and all of them said yeah because everyone's a smack head well ninety percent of people in jail are smack heads but there's only ten percent that are not smack heads and two percent that are successful and good people anyway so everyone buys into it and you say I'll give you a bit of puff first yeah is a bit of puff have a bit of puff right is a bit of gear is a bit of gear is it all done yeah so all the cells are done so all the cells are done so now I deliver the screws but I wouldn't I well I I won't buy them like these shame it all up myself but what I do is when they come down the government got to open your door you right Gov Evan he'd like a cow pat I cure it because he's like fap it's like a蛋 it hits his face hits his thing it hits the door and she's gonna grit it you go a bit or straight on that was the thing I used to do always coming straight on cunt luck in my door you all right over straight on cunt on whatever screw was. So basically, we got the, I'm shitting the screw up. I've got the, all the cells blocked up. So the night now, there's a due to occasions in the morning, right? So the day before I'd say to the governor, you're gonna let me go back on the wing for Christmas. He said, no, you're not gonna go back on the wing. I said, do you know what? I wanna cost you a fortune, watch. Yeah, I'm gonna cost you a fortune because I'm on medical hold, right? They can't move me, like I'm on medical hold for an operation. So they can't just ghost me. It's crazy. And they have to pay a mad fine for that. So they're not gonna do something that's gonna cost them money. So I'm on medical hold. So now I've got more gear coming over the fence. Bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum. The jail's having problems. I'm getting people beating up, people cut. I'm getting people robbed. I'm paying, I'm telling everybody, do this for me. Do that for me. And they're doing it. What is happening? The jail's bubbling like night, right? All of a sudden I'm down the block. I've got everyone on the dirty protest. I've got every day, every day, every time they open the door, they get wiped off their feet. Because as they open the door, all the wall was built up in the cell. So when they open the door, just take some off their feet, then the whole seg is soaked. Yeah? And they ain't just one cell. They ain't just two cells. They ain't just three cells. It's five, six, seven cells that are just flooded. They can't do the judications. The governor's getting mad. Do you know what I mean? How was that to handle? Hard. We had, whatever. Do you have shutting that floor? For the first bank, we had Tommy Beverage when he went down there, about six young offenders, 18, 21 year old, seven of them on dirty protest. Yep. You know, you'd walk in, smell a just, yeah, just floor you. Yeah. The seg were just a long wing, cells either side. IMB, Independent Monitoring Board. People used to volunteer to go in prison. I remember when we got it on dirty protest, three lasses walked on. They used to sign in. One was signing in. One was sick. The other were nearly, that were it, they were gone. For the fortnight, we never saw nobody, no governor, no, nothing. How was it for that? Hold it concerted in discipline. How was it for Harold Chapman and that when they came in? Eh, he was there when I went there. Roy, they're Roy. Again, we get the fearful of people like that. They say they get fucking treated like Roy about, but they get treated like Roy, mate. Because we were on a discussion coming down. Roylty, trust me, they get things you don't even get on the fucking can, eh, mate? Is that true? Yeah, it is, mate. Let me tell you, a certain lord who's not a lord anymore, he writes lots of books about prison. That's all we say about him, probably sue you or whatever. I remember going to a prison where this geezer, you know, ex-politician had been and one of the guys there says, come and have a look at this cell. So I went and had a look at this cell, walked in. I can't remember exactly now, this is 2003. Yeah, I walked in, I'm like, what the fuck? You know, it was somewhere else. It was still a cell in, you know, structure. I said, yeah, this geezer. He writes lots of books about prison, yeah. His food wasn't the food that, no, prisoners were getting, no, mate. He got treated, but I tell you, one guy who did do his time, his name's gonna go out of my head now. I knew it would. Joey Barton, your mate, yeah. So like Marvin's saying, when he come in, it was a football, he was still a footballer. He was given special privilege. He was given a job. He was given the Jim O'dley's job. Yeah, he had to be kept fit. You know, he was in for assault or whatever, but that was out of the prison's control. That come from above. Whoever, whether it was football club, an MP, I don't know, but Joey Barton didn't do any proper time. He was treated like a celebrity around the world. I've seen it. Even the big monsters are treated like that. Sex offenders, everything. They used to give me a fucking hump. It gives me the hump. They get protected like, what? They're ruining kids' lives. They're treating me like a... That was something that really kept a fire alive in my belly for prison officers. Not every day prison officers, but the people in the photo. I said, go, let me slip in there. Let me slip in there. And they're like, oh, but we can't. We can't. So you fucking... Do you know what he said there, Marvin? Right, that is a valid point. You probably didn't realize we were making it. Such as myself, landing screws, officers, whatever you want to call us, guards, the people at the bottom of the chain, yeah, you know, they don't dictate how the job's done. That's done by other people. Yeah, yeah, you're just done. That's done by other people. That's done by other people. They're the ones that get all the shit, crap, bollocks. You're what I call the turnkey. Yes, I got you. Turnkey, open me door. And that was it. I just make them feel like that every day screws. I can't open my door. He must have been a fucking piece of shit. I'm not letting him get away with this. He said, right, 2013 Strangeways, to be fair to you, talked about three officers he didn't get on with. To be fair to me, what was it like though? Forget them three. Yeah. Tell people what Strangeways were like, 2013. It was like a big kid's home, if I'm being honest. No, you be honest. It was like a big kid's home with loads of confused individuals that didn't even know what they wanted to do. Was that the stuff or the prisoners? Pugs. Pugs. No, but what I must say about, what I liked about Strangeways, it had the old screw mentality. You know, like, you talk to us with respect, we'll treat you with respect. And then you had a little percentage of them that was absolute dogs. But on the whole, from the officer's perspective in the prison, it was one of the best prisons I was in. Throughout my whole entire life in and out of prison. Because the prisoners, yeah, the officers, although they were officers, they never acted like officers. They acted like normal people. You know, like, it was so hard, it has to be put is that the uniform didn't exist with 80% of the officers in Strangeways, although they wasn't crooked, right? Because I tried a few times about it. They wouldn't have it. They wouldn't have it, right? So there wasn't crooked officers in there. And I did try. I did try, but there ain't no crooked. Dynamic security, this. We talk about it a lot, Marvin. Yeah, that staff, prison and relationships, they were really good. Yeah, they were. You get to know people, you know, and that's how it is. And everyone was the same then. They weren't all big ass, hairy screws, were they? No, no, no, no, no, no. Right? Some of them people, you'd be shocked if you come across who you said old school, they were one lad of work, where they'd been in seven years. I thought he'd been a Scrooge 25 years officer, whatever you want to call him, yeah? Because of how he was, yeah? And that's how it were back then. But it's good to hear it from something like Marvin, whose perspective of us is very good. What's the worst day in the prison system? Is it Christmas day? Is that the hardest for people? Right, they always say New Year's Eve is a potential to kick off, item secured. Right. It's New Year's Eve, you know. Everybody wants that, doesn't it? Yeah, you know, there's a bit of door kicking and banging. It's a Christmas period on the whole, not a lot of incidents and a general feeling of... Yeah. Everyone's a lot, isn't it? A lot, isn't it? Everyone's a loss, man. It's sad, it's sad. You're all a big villain thinking, fuck, my kids are out there, I've got to get... Like, we're concerned about making sure that Christmas for our families is still on point and hasn't been disrupted, apart from us not being there. Because I never have seen myself as not being there, as brewing in there Christmas, as mad as it's happening, so that. Because as long as, in my head, as a warped, confused mindset, I believed that my children, because they were the upbringing I had and the abandonment issues I had to face growing up and the materialistic acquisition that I never had growing up, I felt that my kids needed everything I missed out on. So me not being there was just another way of me trying to give them what I never had and not realizing the impact that it was having. Because I was telling myself, it doesn't matter about your kids, son, as long as they've got everything they need, you're good. And all they needed was you? And all they needed was me, they didn't need money, they didn't need Christmas presents, birthday presents, like, now my kids, my boys, my boys were thinking like, fucking birthday present, Christmas present, what the fuck? You're some sort of a cunt. But I can only appreciate his mindset and try to grow with it rather than ostracize it and identify with it. How has it affected your partner and kid? Aiming our bless, sir. We had two Christmases, prison three, two, 16. I was fucked in head, mate. I was on sick. Me, Ed. I was like, I was just out there. I remember, and he hadn't even committed a crime to go through that. No, no, no. I'm sick, I'm sick, I'm sick. As long as you're sick. Why are you on the sick? I got injured. Because of your job. But then I went cuckoo, yeah, cuckoo. You listen to what I'm saying. Is that because of the presents? Well, this is two, 16, a mint kitchen, Christmas day. I don't know how they look. Do you know what I mean? This is what you've got to understand, right? Now, prison officer is in the prisoner. So for me, I'm going through my shit doing my shit. I don't have to see people that have cut their wrists. I don't have to see the people that have ate shit. I don't have to see the people that have done these crazy things, like peel their cock off. You know what I mean? Try to glue their fannies up. Like these, you don't understand the things that people do in prison when they're going crazy. Do you understand? I've had people, I put this what I guess I've done when I was in prison with him, right? In the block, yeah? He chopped his cock off, right? And you think, ah, how do you chop your cock off? With string, fucking string me. How do you do that? So I'll fucking tell you. All you do, you know when you wrap cotton, you know cotton? You wrap it around your finger and it goes blue. Yeah? If you leave that on there, your finger will drop off, believe it or not. If you get it, it's not the blood circulation to your finger, it will actually die and drop off. I see why. Right? And that's what they've done. He put a fucking cotton around his cock and it fell off. It just fell off one day. Ah! He's come out, he's got it in there, but guess what? Look at that! I said, what's that? She said, it's my cock. I was like, hell! And he went, look at that, I was like, fuck! Why'd you do that? Because he's just lunatics. Yeah, listen. He said there's some fucking lunatics. Like, look, I was insane to commit crime, but you got people inside me. Yeah, they do some crazy shit that I'm not aware of. But he is. He has to be exposed to it. I worked on healthcare seven years, didn't I? See, what, healthcare? Do you like that, mate? You don't understand what these fucking people have to look at and see and deal with. So I mean, I wouldn't even go healthcare as an inmate. But you're putting me in healthcare, you mad. You got an healthcare that's got a chance you can get knighted off, but getting knighted off in prison is a chance you're never getting at. Right? Fuck healthcare! What, are you joking with me? What was a healthcare leak? Right. First of all, it went through a transition. I started November 22nd now, so I did this November 22nd, 2008, August 13th, 2015. Just before Christmas! That's when I come off healthcare. When did you come off healthcare? How many years? Seven years, near enough. Yeah. Let me tell you now, in the book, there's some dick on Twitter that's using my book to sort of create a blog. Look at this, writing about this. Let me tell you now, what they don't know is the people who wrote about it in there who were anonymous, you know, the geezer with the jacket he used to play pool with stopped taking his men 10 days later, his naked, trying to pull his bollocks off, eating shit, rubbing it in his eyes, yeah? Not trying to harm everyone, not taking any meds. I know his name, I remember playing pool with him. I remember the day he went to hospital, he went from playing pool with me, having a chat, he had a Fonzie jacket, mental health all his life. All his time in prison, he'd gone to prison, not for crying, because he was mentally unwell and he'd get locked up, yeah? 10 days later, you know, he's sticking things up himself, he's bleeding from his backside. I know his name, I played pool, I can still see that and I can still see him the day he went and Brad is my manager, she'll be the same. If I said no, I'ma talking about bum it to be there. So what then people don't realize who are reading that and saying it's not your story to tell, who the fuck's gonna tell his story? If I don't tell it, if I don't say this happens in prison, because he won't know. Because like Marvin said, he was nutted off, but he was bad and that is just one incident, hundreds, hundreds, yeah? Thousands, yeah. But the thing that affected me the most was in incidents was how people were trekked staff, how staff were trekked with other people. Trekked, do you mean by treat? Yeah, sure. No, no, no, no. Of course, Marvin. Listen, let me tell you now, so, right, we had a death in custody, that's in the book, again, it was horrific, still see that guy's face, you know, it happened. Look, he's only going to work, we choose to be criminals, we choose to break the law, we choose to stab, shoot and kill, we choose to do that. We, the trauma to us has got to come, but you're going to work to feed your family, to bring up your kids, to pay your bills. Like, why the fuck have you got to see all this shit? Like, this is the things that I just don't understand. And with no support, there's no support. No support, nothing, you're fucking idiot, go home. Do you know what stands out about that day? If you're not back here in the morning, you're getting the sack. That day, I could recount now, three hours every single thing. I give a police interview after, because it was death in custody. So we've dealt with this, 12 o'clock cop come in, he said, I'm sorry for the coroner now, this is an in-depth interview, three and a half, four hours later. So I've dealt with the death in custody, but this isn't about me, there was a young lad, he was an ex-squaddy, 26. He wasn't involved in the actual incident, he was on the unit, yeah. White, he's in shock that lad. Proper in shock. PSD, PSTD. Well, it was just in shock. There was a fantastic senior officer with him, Kev, if you're still around, yeah. He got him taken home and he was off two weeks. The bit I'm now remembering, and it made my fucking blood boil, now like that Marvin, the sixth staff in office, I'm in a fucking brew, laughing and joking, saying what's up with that twat? Fucking grower say it's only a fucking con, bom bom bom, do you know what I mean? That's what got to me, how people were treating other people. All this macho image, yeah. And one of them staff that were in office, drinking a brew, yeah, ridiculing this young lad, yeah. A month later I'm in reception. So one of the reception lad says to me, I won't mention his name now, not out of respect, just because I won't, yeah. But he said, let's call him Smith, the officer who's ridiculing the lad. He says to me, Who says you, Smith or the lad? No, the lad in reception said, ooh, Smithy had a bit of a bad do. I says, oh yeah, what's that? He says he found one dead on healthcare. So I'm thinking, Smithy weren't there. Smithy's come on unit after. Yet he's telling people that he's traumatized because he's found someone. Why? Why would anyone want to tell somebody that they found someone hanging, yeah? When he was nothing to do with it. It's like, this is the culture. Again, I will go back and tell you hundreds of people I met in prison, both sides at door, no bother. Nine shaped centicons, no bother. Some amazing staff. Nobody ever talks about, not me personally. A couple of lives maybe on healthcare, saving lives every day. Nobody mentions that, talks about that. Nobody talks about the good. Everyone wants to hear about the bad. The culture for me was terrible. The macho bollocks, you know, get over yourself and that. A lot of managers and governors had that attitude as well. There must be a lot of goodness in it as well, like he's just touched on there. There must be some good. Of course there is. I'll tell you 80% of it's good, you know? It's only a small... Look, think of it like this, you know? Screws used to come to myself. I got to go, erber, erber, erber, erber. Like, why? Like, well, why? Like, I don't understand. I want to give you a deacon. I want to send you to this place. I want you to get out. Like, you're not going to go home, don't you care about your family? And I'll be like, eh, eh. And then they'd calm me down and they'd go, like, I was one of the worst criminals ever. Like, they tried to give me a C-cat. They sent me to a really good C-cat. And I fucked up and I was back in, within a kind of month. They tried to send me to good jowls and I'll just fuck it up. But they do try to help me, like... Did you fuck it up for the reason that you fucked? I was just too angry. I was just too angry. If you give me a C-cat, that people might think you were going soft. No, no, it's just, I was just angry. So I was like, wait a minute. I left Parkhurst and I went to Coulton Lee. Right? I got to Coulton Lee and basically he was allowed video sent in at that stage. So I've got all the latest videos. Pulp Fiction was the latest film then. Love that film. Pulp Fiction, yeah. All the John Folt films then. All the Quentin Tarantino films there was. So I had about four or five films sent in. So in reception, they've opened them, checked them and sent them to the wing. All of a sudden, I've gone down. They're putting it. What's that? No, I've got some videos in it. I said, put one in videos. They said, you can't have them, Herbert. I was like, what? He said, you can't have them. I said, you can't have them. Everyone's getting videos sent in. You can't have them. I said, don't wind me up. Put the fucking thing on. He's gone, Herbert, there's a letter here. You're not allowed to watch your videos. I was like, are you fucking joking with me? He went, nah. On the way back in a minute. So I've run up to myself, packed all my gear up, done all my gear. Going to the block. No, no, no. Yeah, go and block, mate. Fuck this. I went downstairs, run in the office. Now they had a communal video recorder. So when they put a video on here, it went on in three wings. Yeah, we used to have that on K-Wing. Yeah, so I was running it. Yeah, I was running it. The thing I just smashed the life out of things, smashed the screw around the head, and it just kicked off. And then that's a wing of taxi and take me to Wannam. Have you ever had a good Christmas, Mark? Every Christmas has been good. For what you can remember. I've never had a peaceful, nice, environment, happy. Yeah, look, Joey, I've had everything. Because I don't see the stuff that I've been through as being bad, I've just, I've made the most and the happiest time of everything I've been through. How are you feeling now? Happy. Good. I feel happy. You look happy, but it's still edge of the seat, Matilda, when it's still. Yeah, people don't, it's just, I'm just regurgitating old feelings, old experiences, right? So the passion, I can't not be Marvin Hubbard. I'm Marvin Hubbard. I'm who I am. I weigh my heart, my sleeve and that's not gonna change. What you see is what you get. I am Ronsill. I am what I say on the tin. And now I'm just dealing with legal products, yeah? Legal opportunities and legal environments, legal networks. I'm not interested in anything criminal, right? I am exactly the same person, but I choose not to be violent and not to be aggressive unless I'm on a podcast explaining aggression or reactions. I think people know you know that you wear your heart and your sleeve and you talk, you do talk to passion. Even though some people be sitting eating a Christmas dinner shouting themselves, it's just the way it is. When was the last time you had, have you had a good Christmas in a way or have you enjoyed it now the last four years? Right, 216, I was mentally unwell, like I said. I peeled off vegetables, I'll ask them in the kitchen, add a few cherries. This was when I was on sick, yeah? All the vegetables were in the bin, all the peelings on the side. She thought I'd done it to take the piss, boom, broke down, that was shit. 217, I'm still not working, I'll ask it working. We've lost the dad at Christmas, which, you know, he was a great guy, just retired like a lot of people do, so that was sad. 218, 219, and this year, I'll ask he's in care now. She's exactly like me, she's a people person. It's not a question. If she was off this Christmas, she's rotted on, she'd be working. Birds of a feather. So, yeah, exactly. So, I'll ask, we're dead opposite on my arm. We've got nothing in common. If I last stays in this industry, which I think she will, our Christmas will be, Billy, my daughter, Amy, and me, and the five cats, and the tortoise, and the dog, sometime over Christmas. So, if it's day after boxing day, and two days after that, that's our Christmas. Do you regret giving out a lot of Christmases away from your family? I don't regret anything in my life, I never have. Like I said, you know, it's part where I am. What I am now is I'm in a position where, like Marvin, starting my own little podcast. Plug that, what's it called? Real porridge podcast. Just go on YouTube. I've posted a bit of content. It could be Sam in a van. I'm just in a van with me mobile. I'm using your tech guy. Get myself, but all I'm gonna do is people I've met, and I'm gonna put the criminal justice system out there because people are clueless. Marvin's touched on some stuff that I'm happy he's touched on, you know, to make it real for people, but also mental health. So many people contacted me after the last podcast. Good on you, mate. Wait for it, James. If you wanna support me, Strange Waze Prison Officer on Amazon, put the links in the description. You're supposed to say that. And book two guys, February 2020. Provisally inside Strange Waze will be coming out and it will be educational as well as shock. Good on you, brother. Marv, future, we know your podcast is dead drop now. Podcast is coming. Christian Morgan's me presenter. I'm a host, co-host is a rack of the muck. We've got four to release in the next couple of months. They won't be able to do it because that's about Christmas Day. Yeah, yeah, we've got a nice one. So leave all the links for Sam's and Marv's in the description. What else, Marv? What else are we doing? Movies, films, books, everything. But I'm just trying to find the order. But follow us on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, all the local places to find us. And yeah, everything's moving speedingly forward in the nicest way possible, you know. You surprised? I'm quietly surprised at the speed because I've always known I was gonna be doing great things. I don't know what it is. People say it's ego, but it's not. I just know I'm special. And I don't wanna sound fucking it like I'm pompous, but people that know me know. You don't get stabbed 23 times. You don't get hit with an axe in the face twice with an axe. You don't get shot five times straight in the eye and live normally like, come on, it's not normal. You can't honestly look at my life and say I'm normal. You can't honestly say that my femo archery's been punched and sliced three places, three times. I've never bled out. Do you know what I mean? I've been stabbed in the heart. I've been stabbed in the brain. I've been shot in the eye. How much do you need to see to understand I'm special? I've been fucking told me all this. I won't be sat here with you, mate. No, that's the thing, mate. So I feel blessed. I feel excited. I feel ready. And I feel empowered to help the youngsters, the youth, the up-and-coming, even the troubled, even the people who've been for it. Jump on my journey, be with us, work with us, do others. Let's all mangle, mate, strategically line. Cause like my pal says, rising tides lifts all ships. So that's what we've got to do, innit? I've got a documentary coming out in New York. Hold on, hold on. How's it been sitting across from each other? I'm not going to know. It's a fucking tense, man. You first, you first. I liked it. He's a man, innit? Look, we can say about Sam, shake me hand, Sam. He's a real man. A real man doesn't do what he does because of what everyone else thinks and says, right? He's focused, he's driven, and he's sort of, his work ethic is insurmountable. You don't know what it's like being a prison officer in the mental health department, right? I've been around, I wouldn't even go down in places. You've got mental health in prison. You think I'm going on the mental health ward or that? You're fucking twisted. Like, people don't get it. You don't get it. You've got people like... Hmm. Like, eating their shit. Just 30 seconds' interjection, like he's just said. I got asked on radio once, hardest prison you've ever taken down. Yeah? 548, 9 and a half stone, mental health. 20 stuff trying to restrain him. It's like that, mate. They don't care. It's just another world is so traumatic what other people go through, right? So, all the stuff that we've been through, all the stuff we do, it's just nice being in a position now so I actually give back, help, and help everybody grow because the more people are still away from crime, the more people are steering to the right direction, the better I would be as a man because that is my purpose for my kid. I've just tried to help everybody I've been in contact with. I've tried to help everybody I've been doing business with. I've done everything I could for all my friends, tried to help them, like with the stabbings, all the shootings, everything I've ever been arrested for, everything I've been under investigation for. There's no smoke without fire. I'm not holding my hands up to anything, but what I'm saying to you is, you mix with shit, you're gonna smell like shit. I mix with the steepest, hardest criminals that this country's spout. So, obviously, I'm gonna get labeled as the deepest, hardest criminal that this country's spout. And I've been arrested alongside with all my friends on the conspiracies, with associations, attempted, like, I've been nicked, I've been never done it. But I'm here, it's now, and I'm glad that we're on this transition with the gringies, and we're doing great things. And you, man. Yes. What about your opinion of Marth, sitting across from knowing that he's backstoring now and understanding that he's actually upbringing? All right, listen. You know, he's trying to do good things. No, we are doing good things. Yeah, trying to change the narrative. Do you know what? I was gonna say that. I don't try, I don't try. No, no, no, no, no. He looks emotional, did he? I get emotional, me. Dead easy. You know, I'll have to be taking piss. I can't watch anything on TV. Do you know what? He stumped me that question. I've enjoyed it. I've enjoyed it. I've enjoyed it. I've enjoyed it. I've enjoyed it. I've enjoyed the interaction. Marvin has led us in some conversation, like Strangeways, not all bad. Some offices not all bad. I think slightly is a little less aggressive towards the screws, towards the end of the podcast than where it'll start, you know, might have, oh yeah, perhaps not all like that. No, I've enjoyed it. No, no, no, no, no. He's nice to meet me. He's obviously a fucking character. I've enjoyed it. And hopefully, if I get down London, Petticoat Lane, I'll go and buy some off his stall. No, no, no, I've enjoyed it. I'll be on your podcast, I know about that. Yeah, I'll be on that. We can do that, can't we? Is it triggered you knowing, obviously, because he's previous job, because you had anti-authority in your blood for such a young age? Because it was... We've always wanted to get together being in the prison screws. We had wicked relationships. But all for the wrong reasons. Now it's going to be all for the right reasons. So it's another parallel fucking, what do you call it? Avenue for us to grow with, right? I've come on your podcast with him, but when I go on his podcast, we're going to talk about other things. I think about a deep conversation to go on each other's word. I think he's been relate more, because even though I'm a slight amnem, I don't mind, but I felt there's a lot of unturned stones there we used to, that you could go deep and you could change a lot of life by your way. Understanding the prison system, there is good people as well, understanding it's funny that you've led a life of crime, and you've worked in the prison system to try to help people, but yet both your minds are still unsteady because of the shit that you have seen. Traumat. Yeah. Marvin will probably find the same as me. If, you know, what he's going to do, he's always going to be there. However, it's, I'm calm now with it. You know, at peace, you know, sort of. Fair enough, but it is Christmas lads, and I'm going to leave a Christmas message and use it to can do it also. Just want to say a witty Christmas to everyone. It's been a phenomenal year. Thanks to guys like Sam and Mar for coming on the podcast and growing my numbers as well. It's been amazing. I know Christmas can be lonely for people, but just pick up your head and soldier on it. A lot of people lose loved ones as opposed to be a family time, but it can be sad for people. But I'm showing my love and my gratitude for everybody who watches and shares, especially watching it in Christmas there. I believe this is one of my biggest podcast to date. The two years have been phenomenal to date. It's been, it's emotional time as well, but I really am grateful for everybody watches. And I'm very Christmas in 2021, you've seen me move through the gears again. Mar, would you like to leave a message for everyone? Just happy Christmas to everybody. Hope you all got what it is you was wishing for this year. And I hope you're all looking forward to a prosperous new year. And a slight change in the people we are. I'd like, I'm a great believer in healthy mind, healthy body and moving forward with the right energy, right purpose and right goals. You can do that with the right diet, right training strategy. So if you're feeling sad, depressed and a little bit lonely, just focus on changing your diet, working in the gym and turning yourself into the best human being you can be for you. Ben, Sam? I think I'm gonna sum this, being shipped for a lot of people. I keep putting stupid little tweets out, but you know, if somebody you haven't spoke to for a long time, text them, even better, give them a phone call. And I'll sum same sentiment of these two guys. They've said it all really, but I had a message last week, I told James on the way down, Kieran, if you ever watched this, 16 years ago, I worked in Kid's Home in Beria. I loved it. That could have been my vocation as it were. I got off at a job in strange ways and went that way. But young Kieran, he was 11 then, sent me a message, social media a week ago, just saying, do you remember me? And thanks for everything he did for me. So, you know, you're probably influencing people's lives every day, just bear that in mind. And have the best Christmas and New Year possible. Merry Christmas, everyone. Sam, thank you, brother. Hard. Thank you, man. You're welcome, brother. You're welcome, brother. Enjoy that. But Merry Christmas. Woo! Check out more of my podcasts on the right and be sure to like, share, and comment your thoughts on this week's podcast. Thank you.