 words at war India India land of mystery and oriental magic the alluring glamour of the notch girls land of the Taj Mahal the fearful conjurations of the snake charmers India where taboo is the law of the land I know you are that's what bothering me really you're doing this all wrong we are I assure you Mr. Costa in the first place that travel log stuff just doesn't go anymore it's outdated besides it's entirely the wrong tone for my book don't believe me we'll have to begin another way well this is your program mr. Nichols how would you like to start well that's very decent of you how would I start it well now let's see yet suppose you take us to a group of Americans who happen to be chatting about India at this moment anywhere you mean through the magic of radio of course exactly oh Charlie will you switch us to the X transmitter we're going to make magic and while you're doing that let's have some theme music the national broadcasting company in cooperation with the council on books and wartime presents another program in the widely discussed series words at war dramatizing the most representative books to come out of this great world conflict tonight's book was written by the English novelist and essayist Beverly Nichols who of course will be impersonated his book is a record of personal observances on one of the most urgent and absorbing problems of modern times its title verdict on India did you make the change over Charlie five now mr. Nichols if you're ready we'll move on to some American conversation where I realized that and we've got to stick together but if you ask me I think the situation in India has a very peculiar order and now you see there's something I can get my teeth into provocative a well what now I tell you what you go over and introduce me to them okay soon a Britain quits India the better it'll be for can I help you well pardon me for interrupting but I'm from the words at war program have a drink no thanks I had that is we happen to overhear your conversation just now and our guests for the evening happens to be a writer who spent some time in India thought maybe you'd like to meet him why sure bring him over mr. Nichols gentlemen may I present mr. Beverly Nichols how do you say wait a minute aren't you the fellow wrote verdict on India yes I am did you happen to read it well sir not me Britain's got too many apologists as it is oh an angle file a better than that my dear sir an Englishman well look here let's not get off on the wrong foot I just wanted to get in on your little chat I I've already overheard something we're a liberty loving democracy mr. Nichols that's right you can't subjugate one fifth of the worst population forever all right you are about that sir oh you agree I do well tell me then what does England expect to do about it well I'm just an Englishman and a writer and I've spent some time in India but I'm not a spokesman for the British government and may I would it be important of me if I were to ask you a question just to get the ball rolling right ahead well a moment ago you refer to India's one tips of the world's population I was wondering if you knew the composition of that population what it's made up of their Indians I guess that's not what you meant well no I I'm just trying to get around to India's greatest problem the endless division of peoples into castes tribes races and states a problem that existed long before an Englishman set foot in India that may exist long after Britain leaves that's what I was getting at now you have any idea of the magnitude of these divisions yeah well only vaguely but I suppose you're prepared to tell us all about it exactly now India's total population is around 400 million that's a lot of money it's not me sure you won't have a drink yes thank you I will I'll meet you thank you the Hindus comprise the largest of the groups 240 million of them so no water a water please next the Muslims 100 million that means 40 million to be divided among the past seas the Sikhs games and Buddhists never heard of them well each of these peoples have their own language their own religion history and customs now let's concentrate on the two largest divisions the Hindus and the Muslims in these two groups you have the basis of the biggest conflict in India if you want to know anything about Britain's position you've got to understand the nature of these two people well they have different religions haven't they yes and a thousand other differences to take Hinduism to begin with what is Hinduism well they have this caste system I know that and there's that sacred cow can't eat meat or anything and the untouchables all right let's start with the separation into castes there are two thousand five hundred castes in Hinduism thousand five hundred each with their own restrictions privileges and taboos at the top of the ladder the Brahmins at the bottom 60 million casteless ones the untouchables and they're the ones I feel sorry for well I'd like to tell you about some of the personal experiences I had in India with this problem of caste it's one of the most shocking things met by the Western mind in the east scene one is a small island off the west coast of India a British subaltern in charge of an Indian training camp has just joined me on the porch of my bungalow oh I drenched how are you coming along Nichols oh trying like mad rise above the heat not succeeding either have a trying day rather trouble with the recruiting hmm aren't they joining up fast enough oh they're coming in fast enough trouble is I have to send them away you've lost me oh boy why do you have to send away look over there standing under that eucalyptus tree those two chats hmm well don't tell me you rejected them they look fine I'll say they do up to par mentally and physically to the best volunteers I've had I had to send them away haven't say why they're untouchables sweeper class oh that's put possible I suppose it is but this is India Nichols India if I took those two men in and have no signs all they need them I accepted them the rest of the men would simply up and quit well all the snow you're getting stirred up oh boy it's one of the things you learn to put up with well I wouldn't put up with well I have to and I don't care to have another Indian mutiny on my hands that's a cool blotted attitude just doesn't make sense to me and just the moment my friends there are other Hindu doctrines besides the caste system which makes progress equally difficult religious superstitions for the most part while I was in India I got a very serious put infection which kept me in hospital for some time strange enough it was there that I learned of many of these superstitions one day for example my Eurasian nurse came into my room obviously upset about something hello nurse something wrong yes mr. Nichols we're having trouble in one of the wards this morning oh I sort of trouble a girl with acute appendicitis she ought to be operated on at once but she won't let the doctor do it until tomorrow well I haven't say why not because this is not an auspicious day it isn't no well what's the matter with today it is not a lucky day in the religious calendar tomorrow is but by then she will probably be dead nurse came in another morning equally disturbed well what's up this morning nurse more trouble yes as you might expect well go up a chair and tell me all about it thank you but I have not time to stay a little boys just arrived with 18 relations who insist on sleeping by his bed well 18 relatives yes parents grandparents uncles aunts and what all three babies howling their heads off besides it'd be funny if it were not tragic this patient is supposed to have absolute quiet why don't you just get rid of oh no no we could not do that if we so much as asked one of them to go they take the boy away and he'd be dead before morning no we couldn't risk that of course with all that uproar the poor thing will probably die anyway 18 relatives chattering and yelling around a dying boy and the picture horrified me too when the Hindu doctor came to see me I asked him about this fantastic custom that Mr. Nichols is a Hindu custom known as the joint family system mm-hmm does everybody get in on no just a direct line of descent the father mother son and grandson together with the corresponding women folk usually they live together under one roof that is why it is called the joint family system joint in food worship and estate and joint in expeditions to the hospital I take it that is all too often the case but then that is really one of the lesser problems with which we have to do the shortage of nurses for example that is a much more serious matter one of the figures exactly do you know I mean the proportion of nurses to population one nurse to every 65,000 Indians Mr. Nichols but why can't you train more again mr. Nichols it is a matter of religion most Indian women consider nursing a dishonorable profession dishonorable why well they feel they would degrade themselves by tending the sick and wounded you see that they would have to minister to patients of all castes certainly is working against odds you know I heard today there are 60,000 TB cases in one city do they know why the TB rate is so high doctor well in my opinion at least 50% of it is due to purta I'm afraid I don't put that is the Muslim custom of hiding the female face or two narrow slits for the eyes a tiny opening for the mouth that is all the fresh air most women ever get seems impossible yes but doctor if this costume is so unsanitary can't something be done about it can't can't they be told it breeds disease I suppose it seems simple enough but actually it is terribly difficult we fight superstition year in and year out but not openly of course it would do no good to offend the religious feelings of the people from what you were telling us mr. Nichols I guess it takes a particular kind of mind and background to understand these people yes it's something the Western mine finds difficult to grasp but you English have been there 150 years you're known by now yes that's right and perhaps you're right gentlemen but when you discuss India you're dealing with one of the most complicated twisted problems about time one tip of the world's population dominated by superstition ridden with prejudice torn by factional warfare the powerful against the weak the gentleman you're looking credulous what is it well everyone tends to use the facts which support his own point of view not that I doubt you mr. Nichols I see you you regard all this is the rationalization of an Englishman so well then it's time we heard from India herself I'll let you hear the words of an eminent Indian leader dr. Ambedkar and yes he's a non-caste Hindu and leader of the 60 million untouchables listen the key note of my policy mr. Nichols is that we untouchables wish to be recognized as a separate element in the national life of India we are not a subsection of the Hindus as Gandhi claims Gandhi says to us trust the caste Hindus but I say that Gandhi and the caste Hindus are our hereditary enemies what do you believe must be done dr. Ambedkar why I want to gather the untouchable minorities from every village and let them establish their own towns places where they will be majorities with their own voice in government this reorganization is a tremendous task and we can only do it if we are allowed and do you believe with the Indian Congress that it is time for Britain to quit India mr. Nichols we are as patriotic as any of the Congress but we do not want Britain to quit India till our rights are safeguarded if they do the fate of the untouchable minority will be worse than that of the oppressed peoples of Europe I've never heard of any Indians wanting England to stay in India yeah I read about it somewhere those my friends are the words of a casteless Hindu not a British spokesman an untouchable who has himself risen from the depths risen about insult and superstition to become the champion of his people maybe so but I don't think he's smart or practical about it any attempt to segregate people is bound to promote isolationism of one sort or another and eventually isolationism breeds distrust and conflict you don't convince easily do you all right I'll bring you the opinion of another Indian a man who is the leader of Pakistan Pakistan what's that I know that's what the Muslims want isn't it yes that is what the 100 million Muslims want here's what it is very briefly they want to establish an independent state in those parts of India where the people are largely Muslim these people want a separate state because they feel they're completely in conflict with the Hindus conflicts of religion customs language wait a minute Mr. Nichols suppose there are conflicts what other people have resolved their differences in other nations why not India well if I answer that question you'll say I'm prejudiced again I'd rather have an Indian bring us the facts this man is Mr. M.A. Jinnah the leader of the Muslim League I first met him on December the 18th 1943 and asked him Mr. Jinnah how would you define the principles of Pakistan in five words Mr. Nichols the Muslims are a nation when you say that are you thinking in terms of religion certainly religion but more than that also our religion Islam is also a practical code of conduct so you see I am thinking in terms of life in terms of our history our art our law please I'd like to write that down of course you see in all these things the attitude of the Muslims is not only different from that of the Hindus but sometimes completely opposed in fact there is nothing in life which links us together our names our clothes our foods they are all different our economic life our educational ideas our treatment of women we challenge each other at every point of the compass what have you written down I am the Muslims are a nation and do you believe it yes I do what other questions do you have Mr. Nichols Mr. Jinnah you know of course the critics of Pakistan claim that the idea was created by Britain in order nonsense in fact it is the opposite which is true what the British have created is the myth of united India a myth that has no basis in flesh and blood a myth that will cause endless conflict for this once at least divide and rule does not apply what you would prefer then is divide and quit exactly mr. Nichols you have put it very neatly let the British divide and quit divide and quit huh well all I can say is the problem of India seems a bit more complicated than I thought yeah but but here's the thing I've learned a great deal tonight but tell me mr. Nichols don't you think the British bear some responsibility for India they've ruled India for 150 years I mean don't you think they've made a few errors here and there Bob over user I certainly do and I'd be the last to deny it and not just a few errors here and there either the British have made blunders of colossal magnitude in India let's look into some of these first the problem of the English personality English yes yes the people who work for the British government in India oh I don't mean all of them to be sure the ones I'm thinking of become famous the world over those ancient figures of Noel coward comedies the buck aside in his men side yelling for Chota pegs at sundown I'll tell you about one of these I was about to board the train and the crullies who had carried my luggage were waiting to be paid after their hard work in the burning sun I didn't have the heart to just pay them without a word of thanks so I turned to the English Colonel it was with me I say Colonel what Indian for thank you oh what old boy thank you I'm afraid I you don't say thank you certainly not that matter of fact will believe there is such a word been in India 30 years never heard anybody say thank you thanks well everywhere I went in India I asked that what is the word for thank you nobody neither the British nor the Indians seem to feel the lack of that word of course there is a rough translation nobody used it that's all you see the British who live in India that Colonel and others like him they don't really live in India at all they're present physically but their hearts are in the Highlands of Piccadilly let's go back to my Colonel on the train I say are you really going to well I done some pretty careful studying yeah I was tempted to say no and if you stay out here for another 30 years you'll still be as ignorant but I didn't instead I said tell me Colonel have you ever seen an Indian movie perhaps but you can get a good insight into Indian psychology from their movies no thank you in all the time you've been here Colonel have you ever spent the night in an Indian village what an odd and crawly thing not really what about friends Colonel in your 30 years here have you had any real Indian friends friends well let me see now I don't see why not quite decent Indians matter back really some quite decent Indians but they call them friends you have it a great vacuous guess a little spiritual isolation in the midst of a continent alive with a conflict of ideas and cultures in this failure to become part of the country only the British ought to blame but there have been worse sins and that of course sins of omission perhaps but sins never the less I learned about this when I went to visit a friend of mine at Delhi he was an official in the department of industry hello nicoes have any trouble finding me well a little I say is this the department of industry yes in the Department of Health and Department of Education too why but I do you mean to say that three government departments are crowded into this one office just another small I suppose but then we we manage you do what what what what you managed to do that's what I came here to find out you know what is your department done for example to promote industrial development in India we're now cotton steel people cementive all grown quite rapidly in the last 20 years what about the heavy industries automobiles shipping armaments not so good there I'm freed you might say well they're more or less stagnated in other words the government really hasn't done much of anything to promote industry here is that not much certainly well here's a figure I'd like to get what percentage of the Indian population is employed in industry about 4% little over 4% after 150 years of rule by one of the most highly industrialized powers in the world 4% doesn't sound very good does it I'll say not what about the Indian Congress has claimed that Britain has done this deliberately purposely kept the country in a state of industrial backwardness you've heard that of course and rather and I'm very much afraid the facts support the charge they were attempts to set up an Indian chemical industry for example but it was scotch by the government and tried to establish a match industry too but it met the same fate competition with British industry well yes yes Nichols something like it yes that interview made me pretty sick at heart but when I listened to an Indian agricultural expert I discovered even worse things you'll see Mr. Nichols what happens to Indian agriculture can affect the condition of a whole country 80% of the people are directly engaged in farming it's a very sad picture I am afraid most Indian farmers live in terms of the middle ages modern farm tools rotation of crops fertilizers all these are unknown as a result the land becomes poorer and poorer with each succeeding year and has the British government done anything to relieve the situation only one thoroughly constructive thing and that is a matter of irrigation the British have constructed here the largest system of irrigation in the world it is a magnificent piece of work truly but the success of it only points up the failure to do anything about the other vital problems not only farming problems either what are you thinking of a social pest mr. Nichols a blood sucker that plagues the Indian farmer from the cradle to the grave that ravages his land and destroys his will banya banya I thought that meant money lender that is exactly what it does mean do you know that the farmers of India pay more to the money lender by way of interest and they pay to the government in taxes interest as high as 50 and 75% yes and the banners are the worst pestilence the Indian farmer has to contend with but I thought there were laws passed laws that restricted the interest to 18% yes but these laws have not been enforced the banya thrives today as always mr. Nichols your willingness to admit some of these force of British rule it's very commendable I think but haven't you left out something what's that well admitting the terrible internal problems of India all of that isn't the true that two out of every 10 people in England make their living from the Indian Empire yes I think Churchill himself said that yes he did you see what I'm getting at I mean Britain didn't colonize India for altruistic reasons it represents a sizable portion of England's national income doesn't it yes you're right about that so right and that brings us to the moral question should Britain quit India in my mind the answer is emphatically yes if the Atlantic charter means anything if the whole war means anything the answer must be yes and equally on moral grounds this yes must recognize the sovereignty of the two great Indian nations the Hindus and the Muslims however it's much simpler to answer that question than the two which follow from it can Britain quit India and will Britain quit India before I left the country I discussed these two questions with a young Indian friend that's what I believe mr. Nichols yes yes not do I believe to that England should quit but surely you don't believe it can be done overnight India would be left almost defenseless from aggression but mr. Nichols if India gains her freedom she's willing may eager to defend herself my dear now do may I ask with what with what will India defend herself with barge poles the sticks and stones and whose fault is that whose fault is it that India is so weak whose fault that we have no Navy no Air Force no munitions factories but don't you see not do these are rhetorical questions it it doesn't matter how you answer them the fact remains all right let's say it's the fault of the British can India defend herself from aggression other nations have developed an army we can do the same of course you can but we are discussing the question of whether Britain can leave India now not 20 years from now and 20 years is the time it would take to create an Indian army well let us come to your other question then it is the one which interests me most tell me will Britain quit India there mr. Nichols there's the question I've been waiting for two what answer did you give to Nando when you come right down to it I guess the whole world wants to hear the answer to that one it's the 64 dollar question all right what do you say mr. Nichols will Britain quit India gentlemen that is the most interesting question and at the same time the most difficult so matter of fact I do not have the answer to it but I know who has to tell us the Indian people themselves within their hands lies the power to fashion an answer which will be a mighty and unequivocal yes because after all is said and done no one is in a better position to solve India's internal problems and her own people her giant clashes of nation against nation cast against cast superstition against progress these great boulders in the path of democracy and well-being when they are removed then Britain will quit India for the time being these are the signs of hope for Indian freedom as every day goes by the Muslim nation opens its eyes a little wider the untouchables raise their heads a little higher and most important of all more light begin to flood the stage the audience you gentlemen here in the millions like you all over the world I begin to realize that the drama of India is not so simple as you once believed tonight on words at war we've brought you verdict on India by Beverly Nichols the radio dramatization was by Edward jurist the cast included Horace Brayham as Beverly Nichols Joda Santis at Bagley William Thornton Bert Tanswell Raleigh Bester Don Morrison and Jackson Beck the music was arranged and played by William meter and the production was under the direction of Anton M leader next week words at war will present the radio dramatization of the secret state by Jan Karski this series of programs is brought to you in cooperation with the council on books and wartime by the national broadcasting company and the independent radio stations associated with the NBC network Jack Costello speaking this is the national broadcasting company