 Hello and welcome to Pukipondas, the podcast where I explore big questions with brilliant people. Today's question is, how is a trauma-informed relational approach supporting schools post-COVID? And I'm in conversation with Molly McLeod and Anna Gregory. Hi, I'm Molly McLeod. I'm a Restorative Practice Service Lead for Education in Gloucestershire County Council. I've been doing the role for about four, five years now. And we are in a number of schools, about 35 different schools in Gloucestershire at the moment, ranging from primaries through secondaries, alternative provisions and special schools. And we work with the professionals within the Education Hub who also go into schools. Very much my job. Anna Gregory, I'm the Restorative Coordinator for Peacemakers, which is an educational charity that's based in Birmingham. And we work predominantly with schools in the West Midlands, but also with some community groups and youth groups in particular. And I'm coming up for my 10th year of supporting schools with restorative practices and helping them to become restorative in whatever way they can. And yeah, peace is kind of our core understanding of what restorative is. So you can't start early enough learning the skills and attitudes and values of peace before we get taught how to do conflict really well in society. So we start with peace first. Wow, okay, that sounds deep. So the whole episode today is all about how trauma-informed relational approach can support schools post COVID. But let's just take that back a little bit and just assume that some of the people listening in might be wanting to learn a little bit more about the very basics here. So could you tell us a little bit about what do we mean by restorative practice and relational work and what is peace? I think for me, restorative practice is a set of principles really and approaches. It's aimed at positively building, maintaining and repairing relationships. So it's a way of being with each other, the build empathy, care, understanding of and acknowledges our own unique perspective of the world. So it's around listening and yeah, I guess, I don't know, Anna, do you want to expand on the peace part? That's your... So yeah, well peace means many things to many people and we wouldn't dictate what peace means to anybody. It's open to interpretation and very cleverer people than me can't even agree what peace means. We wouldn't even try and pin that one down. So we start from the premise that peace is a possibility for us and that is quite hopeful, but it's not really a destination. It's not something that you arrive at. It's something that you work towards. So within that you can think about restorative practices and relational ways of working as well as something we've got to keep doing. And yeah, it's lovely working with children and with the adults who support them asking them what peace means because it means different things to different people and in different schools at different times in different communities. So peace for children can mean jumping on a trampoline. Peace can mean being quiet in my room. Peace can be sitting with my dog. Peace can mean peace and quiet for adults. But you know, I think peace is whenever you feel most like yourself, most connected with who you are, most like you can flourish, most like you are working at your best. So for me, peace is quite noisy and peace is quite chaotic and quite laughter filled and a bit sort of all over the place. And it's that moment in a circle, for example, where people are talking and laughing and busy and yeah, so my peace is different to what other people's peace is. And I think schools, it's worth acknowledging that restorative practices in the UK schools have kind of come at it predominantly first of all from like a behavior lens and kind of a way of managing behavior. And I think Molly and I are on the same page and we'd like to steer that discussion more to be about how people can relate to the core qualities and kind of the starting point of what we see restorative as. So yeah, schools might see it as an alternative way to think about addressing discipline and behavioural issues. But like Molly said, we would be encouraging conversations and practices where people can really be supported to build positive healthy relationships with one another, maintain them when they go bit wobbly and then repair them when harm has happened and things have gone wrong. I sit right with you Molly. Yeah, well, I think what and the reason that we wanted to talk to you Pookie was because during both our journeys with restorative practice, particularly going into a number of schools, I have found that we now have to when we're delivering restorative practice training as we deliver alongside trauma informed training, because it's about understanding how the other person is showing up to the relationship and mechanisms to kind of opportunities really for schools to be able to strengthen those relationships. I was talking about circle work. We use circles a lot in school to listen to each other to build emotional literacy or see skills role modelling good behaviours and and ultimately listening to each other. And if somebody is showing up not having had a good weekend or a good night for whatever reason, it's an opportunity for us to acknowledge that and to understand that that might be informing the way that they behave throughout the day. And we might need to spend a bit more time kind of giving them space to be able to move through and work through whatever issue that they are showing up to school with that day in order for them to then be able to access their learning. So it's just about understanding where everybody is in order to be able to achieve what needs to be achieved really. And I'm interested in terms of the sort of thinking about it cynically like the business case for your role because at a time when councils have less and less budget to spend on these specialist practitioner roles. It's interesting that your your role continues to exist and I'm assuming that means that you know you've had some great results and the council can see real benefits what you're doing. We have we've also had a huge surge in interest since COVID because they they are understanding the importance of relationships and their understanding this notion of collective trauma now so. And people are turning up to school that they've never had a problem with who are bouncing off the walls or who are behaving in ways that there are alien to them and it's about Well, how do I really understand what's then going on for this child. And the trauma informed aspect is understanding what neurologically might be happening for that child and develop mentally. But and how that behavior is then manifesting itself and restorative practices about the language and the way of being with that child in order to be able to interact with them to. Regulate their emotions to be able to relate to them and ultimately to be able to sit down and reflect on what's happened and what is going on for them in a non confrontational way uses non blaming language and. You know we're curious rather than judgmental in our conversations and so actually post COVID. We've had more demand for our service that we can actually deliver at the moment so we're having to be quite creative and how we do that and that's where people like Anna come in to kind of support. And respond really to what schools are asking for and certainly relationships become a huge focus for us post pandemic and continues to be. I think also there's been a sort of a bit of a rude awakening for some adults as well in that they maybe for the first time are experiencing anxiety heightened stress. You know some things that weren't there before are starting to come up for them. And so there is a different kind of way of looking at some of the behaviors that they may have prejudged about. Yes, some of the young people in the school but also some of their colleagues, people in their families. And so when we're working all of us at this heightened stress level. I think there is there seems to be a willingness to kind of take stock and be a bit more compassionate and like look at some of our friends and colleagues behaviors and think all right well that's not normal. No it's not normal because the time's not normal. You know and and so yeah this this experience I think is kind of triggering some interesting responses in adults in particular who yeah. And what support can we give to adults to get this right though because it seems from from what you're saying and I guess from my experience at the moment as well but our children's need is greater than it has been at the past and for many it's the first time we're really seeing this kind of need from them. But that actually the adults who want to be there and empathize and be compassionate and build these relationships. Those adults are struggling to and that must make your work additionally challenging. Well we, it's about role modeling really so it's about role modeling behavior that you want to see and actually in order to be able to take care of others you need to be able to take care of yourself. And so our start point post COVID particularly in any school is staff well being circles so we, we are working with the school to look at creating space and opportunity for staff to get together in a safe way the thing with circle work is because there are rules of the circle there's a predictability to it creates this community of safety and people are able to be more themselves they're able to bring them their whole self if you like to that space and and they're able to kind of talk about the issues that they don't have space or time to talk about in their job they're very busy teachers but to be able to have time and usually two to three times a week where they can sit down with colleagues and just reflect on what's happening for them. And to kind of talk to others and listen to each other stories it's very powerful we've, we've been running quite a lot of sessions around staff well being so then understanding their own trauma and their own response to it and like I was saying, for a lot of them, they've kind of got to the stage where they're kind of like, okay I'm recognising that I'm not okay. And there are lots of messages certainly you know my organisation has been very aware of staff well being and the need for us to take time and to nurture our relationships in a way that's just a bit more explicit than it was before. You know before you might take time to say hi to somebody or talk about your weekend over a cup of tea in the kitchen or, but we don't have that now that we're all working virtually and so actually we're having to build that in, but in order to build in we have to acknowledge that it's a need. And so I think we are finding that in schools actually they're getting to the point where they're so exhausted and they're just saying our biggest concern at the moment is staff well being so that's where we're starting. And that's that's all that we're offering really a restorative practice is a whole spectrum of kind of approaches tools practices principles. But really it's about relationships and we're starting with our relationship with ourself so all of the things that we're doing with the staff they can then do with their classes and but it's important that they understand that they are taking that time for themselves at the moment. So what does that kind of look like in practice. Could you tell me about, you know, an example of what a staff well being circle kind of looks like you said there are kind of clear set of rules of engagement and yeah expectations there. Anna do you want to do the rules of circle it's your bag. So we have to kind of take ourselves back or at least look through through two lenses here like pre covered and post. Because there's a physical. Yeah, there's there's those physical aspects to it so the idea is that we we clearly we change our physical environment when we create the circle. So we're setting tables and chairs back ideally or finding space that people can have enough room to create circle. If we're sitting on chairs we will create a sense of equality or using the same chairs. So adult not on a different chair. And we are trying to share early on implicit messages that you know we are working more democratically with flatter. For everybody and everybody's voice can be heard. So we set out our circle. Physically we have the same amount of gaps in between the chairs, and we could have something in the middle to look at to help focus attention. If, and this is, you know, working with with trauma in mind if kind of eye contact or is too intense or we're worried about the focus that a circle can can sometimes give, we can have a centerpiece or not. And then the facilitator and we're using the word facilitator rather than teacher or instructor, the facilitator might pose a check in question. And this is an opportunity for everybody to respond to this question how they want to or pass. They have free pass without judgment or comment. In responding to this question, again, in pre COVID times, a physical talking piece would be used. So we would use this and some people might have heard of like a talking stick or something like that. People use shells, beautiful rocks or balls or anything that can be passed round. And is a visual cue that when you hold the talking piece you are in speaking mode, and that helps everybody else go into listening mode. So the talking piece goes around and we all hold it so that we're all connected and we respond to this question. And the questions low risk. The question is something that everybody feels they can answer. So what's your favorite pizza topping? What's your favorite times table? How did you earn your first pound something that can generate excitement and that we all feel we can contribute to. But the idea is that we're building social connection as well. So in all of these practices we're looking for ways that we possibly could look or turn to our neighbor and think, I just didn't know that about you. I feel differently about you. I feel good about knowing this. I feel good about sharing this piece of information about myself. So yeah, we do this check in and then we would play games that are designed to help develop social and emotional literacy. And for us at peacemakers we'd be using and I know Molly's work as well, what's known as the restorative framework or inquiry is used to help us kind of understand what our responses are to these exercises and these activities. So we're explicitly exploring and saying, okay, I'm playing this game and I didn't win. And I'm going to talk through how I feel about that because I really want to play that game again and I'm realizing that I'm really competitive. And so, or I feel fine about playing that game. I quite like it when so and so wins. That's quite funny. But we're generating understanding of self and others through a really dynamic, experiential way. Sorry, go on Molly. Sorry, I was going to say it's particularly focusing on emotions and feelings. And the thing that's very interesting is the adults in particular find it very difficult to talk about feelings. They quite often describe their feelings as thoughts. And so the games are designed to really kind of break that down and really look at how they're interacting with each other and what they find comfortable. And to notice what other people find comfortable and uncomfortable so that they, they're really understanding, you know, some people have, they don't like people being too close. Some people have different personal space boundaries, you know, it's and it's about being aware of people on a different level. It's, it's connecting with people in a different way. And I think it's really important that when we're doing any kind of circle work that we're doing the connection and the kind of sense of belonging creating that community before we go into any kind of conversation around sensitive issues or things that may bring up, you know, issues that are going to make people feel too vulnerable, you need to be safe enough in a circle to share whatever you like. And that's why one of one of the kind of rules if you like the circle is that you don't need to share if you don't want to if you don't feel comfortable, you can pass or you can just listen on that occasion and that's perfectly fine. It's about engaging as to however much you feel safe to engage in that particular topic. And what happens if you've got people who are invited along to the circle who just don't want to be there? Well, I don't or child or. I can imagine. Which ever feels more relevant to share. But I think this is the this is where the what I was saying before comes into its own really is quite often what happens is people don't feel safe immediately in a circle if they're not used to it isn't it's a different concept it's unfamiliar to them. But generally speaking in my experience is as they, they listen to begin with or they might say, you know, some kind of very basic things about themselves that aren't going to leave themselves open or vulnerable. And as they feel safer, they disclose more and that's absolutely fine. And, you know, we have had people and new people who joined a group or a team, my team we use circles all the time so new people that come into the team. You know, they don't necessarily divulge everything about themselves at the beginning but over time they feel safe enough to be able to do so and it's the same with anybody coming into that environment. I did some training online introducing restorative approaches to school this week last week, and there's that kind of qualifier at the end of the training when they say things like, when I when I first came into the circle I know you know when I first met you. I thought it was going to be, you know, alcoholics anonymous or we were going to make things I didn't want to do. And the thing is, you know, it's about, it's about low risk, and it's, and it's about people experiencing success quickly and safely. It's emotional safety as well as, you know, physical and academic safety as far as I'm concerned. So the checking question everybody should be allowed, you know, able to respond to or pass the games everyone can play if they want to or pass out of. So there's no kind of test, no one's going to fail at circle time or being in a circle. And I think that the young people whatever age are able to engage with it quicker and in a more meaningful way than some of us older ones who might have, you know, been knocked about a bit and we kind of realised that, you know, it's not okay to speak up at team meetings or we've been in a particularly toxic work environment and it's not, you know, we just don't feel safe whether we're aware of that or not. So it's, it's just appreciating that those adults come with as many, you know, walls up and barriers up as the young people. And if you know, I watched like some people sit with their coats done up for a good 40 minutes bags on there, you know, chairs and they're not going to move. Like they're just not going to move, but it's about safety, isn't it? So it's part of my job is to create that environment where they feel relaxed enough and safe enough to talk to somebody next to them or to move across the circle. And if they don't this time, you know, that's okay, they might, they might next time. You know, a difficult one is when an adult explicitly says at the start, I'm not going to be in the circle, and I'm going to go over here and do my marking. And so that for me takes a little, I have to have a bit of a breath and think how I'm going to challenge that, because that's not okay. You can't be in this room and spectate on our circle. You'll read them in our circle or you're not. And for safeguarding, I need you in the circle. So, you know, and that's like, I'm a guest in a school and I'm running out of time. So we've got to work this out how we're going to get you in this circle and take part as best as you can, even though you might, you might think it's, you know, it's not for you. Presumably, it's very important to have those adults on board as well because you're there for the circle, but then they're going to need to continue with that work and translate that into their kind of everyday practice, I would guess. And I mean what's wonderful about it though is, is those moments where a young person expresses themselves or talks in a dip in a way that surprises that adult who might be a bit cynical. So, you know, they may think that they are a particular way or they're unable to, you know, to do something and then they that young person speaks from the heart or speaks to somebody else or performs a task brilliantly. And, you know, that comment after the end of the session where the adults like, I never, I never knew, I never knew they were like that. I never knew they had that in them. And, you know, there's lots of opportunities in our school day for, for those like moments and we've just got to, I think what restorative practices do is they give us those structured spaces to elicit those moments where someone can really like Molly was saying show up and show who they really are. And I think that's why it's important that we start with the staff, because the best way to understand how to facilitate a circle yourself is to be part of one to understand how they function to have maybe said something that makes you feel a little bit uncomfortable and put it out there and see the reaction and not be interrupted and talked over by everybody and told that your opinion is not worthy or you're wrong or because that again is because we go around sequentially by the time somebody has had an emotive reaction to something that you've said by the time it's got to their turn, they've maybe had time to think about what's the actual issue that I want here. So it's a very measured way of having a conversation and it's a very, it's a very good way of hearing everybody's perspective on a situation before you as the facilitator or as the manager in a team meeting have to then make a decision having heard everybody's thoughts on it. So yeah, experiencing a circle is most definitely the best way to learn how and how they function and what benefits they can bring for children and young people. And what are the kind of, you know, in terms of building these ideas into sort of everyday practice, if you like, what are the things that the skills and the ideas that you find yourself sort of teaching and supporting most often like what can people do every day that would make a difference here. I think I mean the circle is like a physical manifestation of a group like a community and that is always is sending a message and we are able to move from kind of me and I thinking to we thinking. So, you know, when we play a game we experienced success when or we, you know, we are working better as a group when. And I think that can translate to so many other instances, or ways that we respond in schools to move from the idea of I think I believe I know to, you know, what, what do we think what do we know, and we're opening out our, our thinking to include others. Because, you know, as restorative people we we restorative practitioners we believe that our behavior impacts and affects other people, and we are social beings and we are massively, you know, whether that's electronic, you know, electrically sending out mess like vibes and stuff or whatever we're communicating to each other all the time. And just to be just to be, you know, clear about that the way I walk into a room or the way I am this morning affects you, you know, and you affect me. So I just think moving into that space of we is is quite is quite is quite important for some schools to experience. I think it's important for all of us really and I think that actually, you know, as a manager I I start all of my meetings with a check in, and I finish all of my meetings with a checkout and the purpose of a check in just is to really test the temperature of the room who have I got today. And the check in might be a positive or a personal thing, it doesn't always have to be thematic it doesn't always have to be work related. And I kind of saying it's quite interesting when it's it's you've learned things about your colleagues that you would never learn, you know, what kind of language would you like to be fluent in and why you know those kinds of things are interesting gives you depth to your relationships but it also, you know, I know a colleague of ours always starts every day, his check in is giving me a positive and a preoccupation and so by the time it's gone round his team, he knows how everybody in his team is showing up he knows who he needs to maybe have a follow up conversation with or who he can just let off you go yeah great you're on it today. And then the checkout is just how people have been affected by whatever's been discussed in the meeting or in the circle in the session, and making sure that everybody's safe to close the circle really is there anybody that you need to follow up on. And that's for adults as well as young people and you don't need to necessarily convene a circle like Anna was saying post COVID where we do everything on zoom. It just means now when I do a team meeting I go around and I ask people individually to contribute to the check in. We don't use a talking piece, but we still listen the same way and the person who's talking everybody else is on mute, you know you have the same structure to it and it has the same function. It's just, yeah I find it really useful I wouldn't ever have a meeting without one really. And can do you so you said your colleague uses the same check in each time but you're using different things what kind of things would you have used recently as a check in just to get some examples. There's a brilliant book. I don't know who the author is but it's a thousand one questions and I've been pretty sure it's available on the internet you can find it it's fantastic and it just ranges. What I do now because we've been using them for a long time in my team. I ask people for a check in question so it could be anything from tell me an aha moment you've had recently to tell me, you know what you did at the weekend or what are you planning for Christmas or you know we have we've done the one that Anna said about your first where did you earn your first pound you know. Tell us about your first relationship or depends how deep you want to go who you're talking to and what kind of mood you want to set really. I suppose if you're meeting people that you don't know you would set one you know my very first checking question was what was your favorite childhood sweet. Well everybody's got one haven't they and you know in a group of 24 people that you've never met before that gives you an instant connection when somebody else says fruit salad you go yes that's not me. Or your favorite TV show or the first record that you bought and then you get the young ones that go record what's a record. It can be anything. I listen out for checking questions so I have a list I just looked on my phone I have a list on my phone that I basically you know I turn up to training and I however I feel you know like Molly said you want to set mood. So yeah I mean I have particular favorites at any one time. I think that the thing is about the check in is that it is a question. And this is this is what I think I was trying to get to with this whole thing about we like we want to enter into dialogue with people when we're operating restoratively. It's not a monologue it's not me telling telling telling. So you know key aspects of working restorative is being curious and inquiring in a safe way and and you know doing that as authentically as you can. So yeah we have we have these questions that we ask that are basically open questions. But we also when we're when we're skilled restoratively like we are making adaptations to the way that we talk you know the way that we listen our body language as well. And we're trying to show that person or that group of people that we cared about you that we respect you you know as a human being and that you have value to us and to our community. So that's why we ask you questions because your voice is important. So we're very much about entering into dialogue when we're operating restoratively. And in terms of the kind of current context because a lot it feels like a lot of the work that you're doing is about helping adults to be the adults that they need to be for themselves but also for the the children and young people in their care. And I was just wondering how you feel that the adults that children need how that role has changed in light of the pandemic are children needing different things from the adults around them or kind of just more of what you were looking to build before. It's the same emotional availability, you know in trauma work we talk a lot about the emotionally available adult and the strength of relationships people feeling that that they've got that secure place that that safe adult that they can open up to whether that's another adult or whether that's a child and being able to kind of have that predictability and stability is really important for all of us routine is you know routine and connection and communication or part of the kind of recovery process if you like. And these opportunities what we're having fed back to us and what we're hearing a lot of is that the routine of the circles where you know you're going to have an opportunity to say how you're feeling for others to listen. And for that to be acknowledged by the group is really important to people, whether they've got something important to say or like, you know, life changing to say or something that they really need to discuss or not is is just turning up and having that routine is really helpful. So, I wouldn't say you know that restorative practices needing to change necessarily, and it's just we are becoming more aware of the importance of it, the importance of having strong relationships and positive secure adults to be able to communicate this. And is it there any challenge in terms of finding the time because this doesn't sound like quick fix kind of work and obviously at the moment it feels that time is more pressured than ever you know there's always talk of catch up and time lost and yeah things feel very pressured. Yeah, and I think you know that's it's valid isn't it like anything it does take time if you're going to really listen and you're going to really try and understand what's actually going on you know we talk about behavior as being a display of unmet need you know and it's kind of like well then you've got to unpick that haven't you and try and find that was actually going on for that person in order to be able to help them move through whatever's happening for them. But I think you know, if you talk to teachers or people who work restoratively in this way, they will all say that the time you invest in the beginning in that relationship is comes back to tenfold, you know, because the young people who are able to talk about their feelings to talk about the impact that a particular issues had or incident has had on them who are able then to work through that in a restorative way and repair the harm that's been done to that relationship. That that's a much quicker a more sustainable outcome a positive outcome for that relationship than it is if it goes unchecked and you know harm is caused in relationships all the time particularly between young people who are finding it difficult to regulate their emotions. But being able to have that small window where you reflect on what's happened and you're able then to listen to the other person and talk about the impacts of the harm on both sides and be able to repair it. Both parties can move forward without there having to be the escalation to senior leaders or investigation by, you know, lots of other people and and so actually in the long run it it saves time. I don't know if you've got anything you wanted to I was just talking about the conversations that I was having with school leaders over the summer and lockdown one as it's being called and just that yeah faced with just what like what was happening. Covid wise but also what was coming at them. You know from from higher powers. And from parents in the community as well I was I wouldn't say shocked but I was impressed that the majority of the schools that we work with said the first thing we do is get in a circle. And it's almost like the lack you know once you've been down this road the language the landscape changes and your language changes so you're able to just say I'm not doing anything until I know how everybody is and then we will make a better plan together. If I am constantly firefighting and reacting. Then you know I know the cycle I can get into in our school can get into. So the majority of senior leaders were saying we are circling up you know we are talking about impact we're talking about how this affected us and then we are making a plan to move forward. So I'm just you know I'm so chuffed with those senior leaders because that's a full on brave move to say you know I'm pressing pause on this and I'm going to you know figure out for myself what we're going to do rather than responding. And and that's brave and thoughtful because that's not the message that a lot of people get and that is that you know you need to improve standards you know and you know make sure that everybody's in on time and doing all that kind of stuff it's like they they they're willing to engage in a different conversation which I just think it's awesome. Yeah I and I would reiterate that as well we've got a lot of our school leaders are saying you know we need can you help support us to revisit our circles particularly for staff particularly for. You know we time tabling and how do we fit them into the curriculum and what can we do around you to time differently and because they're recognizing that actually this just talking to each other and taking time out for relationships is hugely important now more than ever. And they are almost emboldened by you know the words of trauma and crisis and pandemic and things have kind of gone right well now is the time to do what I've always believed I feel brave because I almost have an impetus to kind of go for it. And nobody's going to judge me because it's needed and it's quite clear that it's needed and actually you know it's going to be a benefit to my school community to embed it and the time is right the time is now and. Sorry people have also had you know we've all had different thoughts about how we want to work how we want to live you know how we want to structure our time and educators have been re re engaging with the notion of education. You know how do why am I in this why do I want to do this what what floats my boat about educating. And for some you know that that that that answer is I'm leaving and I'm going off and I'm doing something else and for some is like I'm digging in you know I believe in this and this is this is the purpose of education in this country is to you know seek to connect young people with themselves and with their learning and become self motivated. And I think that is another aspect isn't it certainly in the schools that I've seen the secondary schools in particular that are restorative is the young people have a voice they know they have a voice they use their voice and they are using their voice. And I think what we're going to see is then you know on social media platforms and kind of outside of their school communities talking about what they need my daughter's in year 11 she's upstairs on an insert day revising for her GCSEs that may or may not happen. And that they're very vocal about it and they really opinionated about it I've never I was never that engaged in politics or you know the world kind of community when I was her age and it's because it's affecting them and I think that restorative practices giving young people the skills the oracy skills to be able to understand how to fight for what they believe is right and to stand up for what they need and to ask for what they need. I think it's also worth making a link to social justice as well and some some areas of restorative is very much about how do we level the playing field or you know allow people or not allow but you know amplify certain voices. And just with what's happened over the pandemic we have seen massive inequality between groups. And so yeah the conversation is very right and very rich and people are willing to contribute. And you know restorative practices provide that training ground to be able to do that to list them well and respond thoughtfully to some of these issues. It can present a challenge in schools you know when you ask people what they think and they tell you. Yes that can be tough. But what kind of you know again it's about engaging with this notion of like what is the purpose of education what type of young people do we want to be supporting to grow up to be our future teachers and nurses and you know our safe politicians and you know podcast entrepreneurs and all the rest of it like you know we want them to have a voice and be able to communicate in the best way that they can. Absolutely and it feels like then it's it's kind of a golden moment in time almost for the sort of work that you're doing that perhaps people are more receptive more open to it that young people, you know, would perhaps really well engage with it and the adults around them would be perhaps more open to this way of thinking. Do you think it's important that we find ways to make sure that this isn't just done for a little while because this is this needs to remain right this this can't just do it for a while now and then everything will be fine right. Yeah, and I think we that's what we're in the community of restorative practitioners that's what we're looking at at the moment. You know, one of the things that's been great about having to do everything virtually is it doesn't matter whether you're in France or in Birmingham or in Gloucestershire or Australia, you can come together as a network and you can promote what you're doing and so with through restorative there is our Twitter handle where we're looking at a national network of practitioners around restorative practice. We're looking at how do we share best practice there's a lot of good practice around the UK and it's about us all now coming together and saying that you know we're talking to Barry carpenter about his recovery curriculum and you know there is a general acknowledgement that restorative approaches they build resilience they build emotional literacy they build positive school communities this is what we're asking for this is what we want we can respond to the rise in conflict in you know day to day interactions in a more constructive way and we just need to come together and sort of showcase how it can benefit communities we're we're busy at the moment and putting all of our research and sort of evaluation together of the impact that it's had in Gloucestershire because it does reduce exclusion it does promote inclusion and improve attendance and it improves things like staff well being student well being you know it all of those things it's good for our communities why would we not want it. Just about like you say getting the message out there. And how if people are listening in and this isn't something that's already happening where they are how how do you get started. I suppose, from my perspective, then, you know, we have restorative Gloucestershire in our county which is an organization run by the police you can look up then you can have a look on Gloucestershire County Council website restorative practice we're doing a huge amount. We've come together over the summer as a group of national school leaders and consultants around restorative practice to create something called restore so there's a website restore our schools which is. You know concentrating on post COVID transitioning safety back into school communities using restorative approaches. I mean if you type the word restorative thinking working anything into Google you'll it will bring you up a number of amazing charities and organizations and people who are working in local authorities. And across other organizations restorative Lee, I think that the question now is how we joined together really and how we support people coming into the field that wants to take this forward. And that's why we've created restorative ed is is to create this national network. The restorative justice council is our overseeing body, I guess, so that would be a good place to start if anybody's interested. It's worth like when people first come across this word restorative for some people though I've been doing this you know just haven't had a name for it this way. That's nice I've got a name but I'm just going to carry on with what I've been doing thanks and some people are like oh that's what I've been doing I didn't realize now it's got a name and off they go to Dr Google and kind of you know go wild for it. And I think it's it's, you know, we've got a good sort of 2030 year history here of working restorative Lee in the criminal justice system but also in education in the UK, but we're a little bit late to the party. It's been happening, you know, in Canada and New Zealand and Australia for for, you know, a long, long, long time. And certainly stuff that's happening in America like in California I'm finding really exciting around restorative work in schools. So, like Molly said, the exciting thing about working remotely is that suddenly, yeah, I'm looking at what's happening in Oakland and just so inspired by the way that they're able to really progress their restorative practice in schools. Compared to, you know, perhaps how it's been working within my experience here in the middle and so, yeah. Do do some do some research and then and then talk to me and Molly and we'll put you into our favorite. And I'll link to all the links that you sent me and any that you send me after I'll put in the in the show notes so that people can can access them. I think it is really important just to acknowledge that when you work restoratively you're starting a relationship with that person and so wherever they are starting from is where you begin the journey. And it's whatever they want to embed do they want to start with circles, are they having a really tough time with another member of staff that they need some reparative work done, you know, what is it that they want do they want to affect whole school or do they just want to look at the more robust transition program for their year six is coming into secondary school post COVID how specific do they want to be. And we will work with them wherever they are it's about each start point being different in each relationship being different and so restorative and what it means to you is different for everybody essentially. No and find a fit that works for you you know we go into some primary schools you've done an awful lot of thrive training Elsa training you know their trauma informed practitioners, and they just want the language to be able to have the conversations these situations arise, we go into other schools where they don't have a particularly strong relational or inclusive behavior management policy or you know and they're in a very different start point so. And again it works the same for teams it works the same for families, you know restorative approaches are things that you, you are you you behave in a particular way and it's for all of your relationships it's not just for some. I was thinking about it actually as you were talking about how one of the things that is a real joy in our family so we live three generations in one home and we make a real big thing of actually all sitting around and having meals together as much as we can. And one of the things that one of my daughters especially likes is if we pose a question so asked me this year to do as I did for last advent which was every day to have a question. And it sounds like basically we're running a circle aren't we. Yes, you are. Yes. And it's really powerful and people like it and particularly young people because they have a voice. And every member of the, you know it's very easy in my family I've got the 14 year old 15 year old and six year old and it's very easy for the six year old voice to get lost while everybody else is gobble gobble gobble. And so actually when you do it and you are just acknowledging everybody around the table and everybody feels included and it feels good. Yeah, I just we're just experimenting with something that's poached a wee bit from philosophy for children actually but it's this idea of sticky questions that children go home with a question stuck you know post it notes to their uniform. And this question is exactly that it's a question designer to design to provoke a response. And it's almost like they can interview people back home so you know, is it is it okay that you know, it's like, should slugs be treated fairly and you know, should we have these kind of discussions and then come back Monday morning. And it's again it's just, you know, if you want to talk, look at it really black and white it's just a mechanism to create social engagement. And so, you know, yes, like those those questions at dinner, they are the mechanism but the feelings that go along with that when you hear what your, you know, your kids say what you know what what your, your, the next generation up here's and when they question that like that is very, you know, like what that generates in us is what we're after like it's those kind of affective responses that we're trying to help build connection between each other. The question is just a mechanism to do it, you know. And I last thing I was kind of wondering about and I think you've maybe sort of answered this really but is about a lot of the work that you're doing it feels like it needs to happen at a kind of community or sort of setting level and really led by the middle and senior leaders within an organization. But if you know loads of the people who'll be listening into this will be teaching assistants or school nurses or you know people who sit lower in that kind of hierarchy but who want to make a difference and do make a difference in what they do every day. What's their role here if perhaps they're working somewhere that doesn't get this or isn't doing it yet. Every conversation counts. And every person that they can have a different conversation with and they can find that way through that conflict in a non confrontational non blaming way where there's learning at the end of it and the harm is repaired and healed will help those young people all those staff members, whoever they are. If I I still remember, you know key adults in my school career and I moved around a lot as a kid I think I attended something like 11 schools in all. So in different countries and at different, you know, points in the in the UK education system. And the people that I remember are the care flights to caretakers that really stand out to me because they made time. They made time to listen to me. They gave me, you know, I was the kid that needed a special job. They gave me special jobs. They listened to me and and you like my my memory of them as an adult and what they taught me was that I mattered. You know, that I mattered as an individual was a weird 11 year old. I was calling their eyes and they wanted to hear what I had to say that somebody believed that I had agency that I could take on a job, you know, and report on it. So it doesn't, you know, it doesn't matter what your role is. If you can see another young person, you know, see a young person in with the eyes that they matter like that is a brilliant, brilliant, brilliant things to do. You don't need to, you know, And I would say, as well as senior leaders, key members of staff that we train at lunchtime supervisors and TAs, and also the children themselves. And we call them restorative styles in Gloucestershire. And they are young people, you know, in primary school they're year three is up to year six, and they, they see the conflicts happening in the playground, they sit down and they facilitate these conversations. They're not difficult questions. They're just questions that invite curiosity and, you know, they're open questions wanting to find out the truth. And I think, you know, we talk a lot about three truths. We talk about my truth, your truth and the truth. And anybody can do that. You don't need to be a senior leader to be able to have those skills to find out how this miscommunications happen because most conflicts happen through miscommunication or not understanding the other person's perspective. And it is just about sitting down and listening to anybody can have a restorative conversation. We have to stop talking because the time has flown by. I always like to end with a kind of closing thoughts. I wonder if you if you each had a thought you'd like to leave people with and I often take these out as just little sound bites of someone just listen to, you know, just a minute of what you had to say what would you like to share with them. Well, Molly, when we when we met to come up with what we were going to say to you pookie. Molly said something and it was so brilliant that I wrote it down and then I emailed it back to her. She has like credit and writes on what she said so I don't want to steal it from her but I haven't written down if you don't know what it is Molly. You go for it Anna. Molly said that basically trauma informed ways of working strength and restorative ways of working and vice versa. So being knowledgeable about trauma helps to make restorative practices more informed and knowledge and skill of restorative practice helps make the notion of trauma more hopeful. Essentially, what we've learned on our journey is that when you understand the impact that trauma has on you emotionally, physically, neurologically, it's it's and then understanding what Bruce Perry talks about about creating a sense of safety about being able to regulate your emotions and having somebody to relate to enables you to be able to engage in restorative reflection. So there's a brilliant quote from John Dewey. He says that we don't learn from experience, we learn from reflecting on experience and that's the restorative element and what that reflection does when you use restorative language, because it's non blaming. It enables you to be vulnerable enables you to take responsibility for your own actions and enables you to put right the harm that was caused. That gives you a sense of resilience and gives you an emotional and social kind of skill set that will take you through life and working with young people and adults who are have experienced trauma just means that it doesn't work. So we get a lot in in training of saying what doesn't work with these kids. It does, you just need to spend more time on understanding the building blocks that come before that reflection. So in order to engage in the reflection and put things right, they need to have safety and emotional regulation and an emotional adult to relate to in place in order to engage in that conversation. And it's that understanding the two come together, because if you you can be trauma informed. The restorative practice gives you the language with which to move on from the trauma from the incident of harm and be able to repair it.