 resume Good morning and welcome to the second meeting on the Edinburgh Bakers Widows Fund Committee. The first item on our agenda is to decide whether to take item 3, a discussion about the evidence here today in private and whether to consider issues for its preliminary stage report in private at its next and future meetings. Do we agree to take item 3 in private and consider issues for and a preliminary stage report in private at the next and future meetings? Felly, nes Merci, symmor foundations ag i ddlereidkelln quadru fyddw fridgeosig fyddw squiraisoli UK involving Peter oedenbarllgar ein bod agon nhw Elizabeth Drummond-Young yswrdd ddydyf ddyalesg i ddžeстиdd mor dd France yswrdd i Wirthcoff vedyd wrth yn Dde, mewn dderefin adson nyroedat purchases dderefin adson nyroedr uhr ac Beddd yswrdd i wirthchwr rw textbooks yswrdd a llunio'r ffrwngau gan y cyhoeddus y bach nesafwyddoedd y bydd yn deill. Felly gweld y peth o'r nothing o'r rhan o'r prifwyr fffrwng gyda'r fforyd. I'n ei wneud i chi'w clywed am y cyhoeddus y bydd yn amlwg, a oes yn gweld y bydd y cyhoeddus o'rthank y bydd yn y cyhoeddus y bydd yn deill, ac rwy'n oed yn rhan o'n credu'r cyhoeddus. A gael e'i gwneud o'r ffrwng cyhoeddus mewn hyllafwyddoedd a'r hunig yn gyffredinol. Mae'r gr tanffordd cyfnodol yn ymgwilio cyllidion a'r rhan o'r rhan o'u pwylo... ...beithio i cefnodol inni gyfrifolio ar y hwn ym Musaidd Ysbyt. Ymloff ddim yn gorfod yn 2011 ..yun cyfnodol yn fynd ymdwech, ac yn unig o bwysig yn amlant o'ch tîm. Mae'n gweithio ar y maes gwahanol. Gallwn wedi bod wedi bod yn Москвig wedi bod hi'n gweld anghybryd pan i ond gan hynny. Mae'r gwneud yn siaradau氣onau oedd y blaenau oedd yn fildigio'n g weld yn math hi. So mae'r instituteidol fod yn gweinio'r bachos a rydyn ni'n gweinio'r bachos a rydyn ni'n gweinio'r gweinio'r gweinio. Felly mae'n gweithio'r bachos o'r haes a'r hanfodol. Mae wedi bod yn grofin i'n fath o'r gweinio'r newid, â'r teimlo Mylliant Ion. Mae Gweithlachau Ion yn gweld yn gwych i chi ymdoedd y drafodaeth yn unrhyw gael yn gwaith. Felly, mae'r ddigon yn cael ei wneud yn beth o gyda chi'n cymdeithas Gweithlo-Edinbrysgol iawn, ond yn cael ei gyf settlingdon. Ion wneud yn ganchareng y bydd ar gyfer y bydd. Efallai i'n gweithio'r bydd gwaith ar gyfer y bydd hynny. I'll pass it over to the first to the four. Good morning, I'm a solicitor at Sheffplin Weatherburn, I have been involved in the incorporation for and the widower's fund for some years but I've been creating deals with them for the past couple of years, and been involved in the setting of the new charitable trust as well and getting those accelerated on that I'm also clucked at the incorporation pan gweithio i gynnwys iawn i gynnwys iawn a blaen i gweld y bydd-oniaeth. Fy nid oes i gyrdiwch i ddim yn gwneud enghraifft parellwyr i gwn blwyddyn i gael, ac yn gyfnod wedi gweld o'u gwybod o gyfer y あftser, neun cyflynag cyngorau cyfan. G anxious iawn, nid oes i gael, yn gyfnod yn gweithio'r cyfnod i gael, neu mae'n gweithio'r cyffredinol i gael gwnyn y mae ganddoi astudio'r oed. o'r adeiladau meager? Eryd wedi gyd fel â'r tentuju, rhan oed yn chi'n gwybod i ddiweddau y cyfansion. Felly nid, yn chi'n gwybod i gael gwybr â'r moddiad bachor, yr wrthynod gyda ni i gafod i gael gwybr â ddydd gennych gan gweithio yn y cwm ydw i'r dyn neutralau. Ond nid ydyr rydych chi'n gwael eu defnyddio'r cychwyn i ggeithgau'r ond gandod di'r pnydd, â'u tyfnol o'r 45 dyn nhw, nid ywr gwedd additionaleiddion, straeduria ac comedygo yw Gweithdafol Gweith a sydd ni wnaeth honi i gyd shreddon o'r adrodd iawn oes ym contextr amazingys. i'w gwybod i gyd. Felly y dynchau'r ddau iawn efo'r gwaith, nid i'w ddau'r gwybod i'w ddau. Rydym yn edrych i'r cyhoedd yn edrych ar gyflwyng. Mae'r ddau'r cyhoedd yn eu gwybod i'ch gweithio'r gweithio'r gweithio efo'r gweithio. Mae'r cyhoedd yn edrych o'r cyhoedd yn edrych yn edrych ar gyflwyng, a'r cyhoedd yn edrych ar gyflwyng, ac mae'r cyhoedd yn credu ddechrau, a'r gyhoedd yn dechrau, ddau'r gyhoedd, ac yn dweud. Mae ardalethau sy'n gweithio rai cyflawniaeth i gyrtwg, fyddai'n gweithio'n chamfford. Felly, rydw i'n ddod eu cyflawniam yn ddod. Felly, mae'r teimlo. Felly, mae hollb dysgu ei gyflawniaeth sgiliau ym niferigol yn ychwanegwadau? Mae roedd yn ei gyflawniaeth sgiliau eu cyflawniaeth? Mae'n eu cyflawniaeth ym niferigol. Wasiahol yw mul i gynnwys iawn i ddef mourn fwy barogasol yn gwaith? Ni yw roedd bethau hynny. Em iawn fyddai branchesut o'u oed ladiesworld garbwyll. armset replied strengthen boycott dgol z雙 y ffyrdd mlynedd nhw sy'n ei meddwl a'r emotio o cas toyulaeth f ferd byw mwyn bwysigfu ddiedr y p picking comida yn gwneud Mae'n cael ei dda, rhai ddim arddangos eich ddifossion yn gwystech. Rwy'n fydd i'r ddefwngig, ac mae'n gwaith i'r ddull i gael y stryd ffond ym ni'r iawn i gael eich gwirioneddau ei ddifossion i gael ei ddyn nhw a'i gael ei ddifossion i'r ddifossion i gael y gyda eu bod yn dair. Nid i dim yno i chi fod bryd o'r ddifossion, oherwydd siadaf ni'n chweithio i gael ei ddifossion i gael ei ddifossion. Rwy'n fyddio i'n gwybod i chi'n gwirioneddau Cwrth i, mae'n cael ei ddim yn gwybod a'r faw Grimgell ac yw yw'r gwybod galler bod yn gallu ei fod yn golygu. Fe'n gwybod a hynny'n gallu cyd-adyn oedd yn oed i niw golygu'r cyllidau i niw golygu i niw golygu'r cyllidau o'r cyllidau i niw golygu'r cyllidau i niw golygu. Mae'n cael ei ddad i wrth mor deunydd mewn bobl yn gwybod yn gwybod a'i drefnwys o baer o'i gweithio fod yn gwybod. was a fund of some value, some considerable value, that we felt would not be viable to promote to people as an investment vehicle or a benevolent vehicle or whatever you might want to call it in its current form. That being the case, it could fall into, just fall into the crown's hands eventually, as not being able to be used. It was there not mae'n Mercedes-Benz yn byw hyd, ac mae'n ddiwrnod os ymmellwch edrych am y cyfrifatiliaeth ac yn gyrdd ddwyngdedd y byd簵u i'chherwydd. Maen nhw'n meddwl i'r lleiwyddoedd, a nhw'n meddwl i'ch hunain cymrydedd yn ymellwch y bybl ei ddechrau. Rwy'n homemadech arlau'r ddaf yn y cyfrifatiliaeth. Mae'n nifer o ymgyrch. Mae'n drwy nes arwyr yarddaeth yn 2011. Mae'n meddwl i gynllun o'r bobl five years. Hefyd, nesaf eich dderfodd… well, Alison. Good morning. I would like to ask what steps have the trustees taken to ensure that the capital payment offered to the wives of the contributing members are actually fair in terms of adequately compensating the wives and in relation to protecting the trust funds? Mae'r ddweud yn ynwys iawn, a ddim yn gwneud o'r ddweud o'r ddweud. Mae'n ddweud hwn i gyd, i'w ddweud o'r ddweud, a'r ddweud o'r ddweud, i'w ddweud. y troes ddyn nhw wedi gweithio yna. Rwy'n credu i'r cyfrannu'r ddod wrth gwrs, ac i fod yn ymddan nhw'n cael eu cyfrannu o amdano fel y dda, a yn gweithio'r ddod i'r ddod, mae'n ddymai chi weithio ei ddod, ac yn rhywun rydw i'r ysgrifun yn ddod, i'r ddod i'r ddod, i'n credu i'r ddod, Achos dyna'r gwaith ar ei ddylawn, mae'n gweithio'r gwaith yn llunio i'ch gweithiun edrych panodol wedi'i gaudi fy ystyried mwy hwnnw i'ch gweithio i'ch gweithiwn. Mae'n sgwrs i ddyddi, ac mae'r gwaith yn gallu gwaith yn gweithio i'r gweithio? Rwy'n gweithio a'ch gweithio i'ch gweithio a'ch ddiweddau gwirio'r acerau arferbarthau, ddim yn dweud ar gael oherwydd oedd dyma'r ddefnyddio'n gwerthu yn gweithio? Mae'r ddechrau yn ddefnyddio. Felly mae'r ddefnyddio yn cael'r dwlaid. Mae'r ddefnyddio yn gweithio'r wrth 2015. Felly 18 oedd. Mae'r ddefnyddio yn ei ddim yn ei ddim yn dweud. a chael ddigon gffenwch chi gan y lluniau'r cynllun cofynol. Felly mae'n gyntaf gwych bod yn fanylwch. Felly mae ddigon wedi credu'r hynny. Rhaid i'n fywch. Mae'n rhaid i ddod o'r lluniau'r lluniau. Mae'n rhaid i ddweud i'r vakantio o'r coreis. Rhaid i'n fywch. Dwy ogymaint bob eich emails a chael fyddion hi'n cadw i'r acedigol o fynd i'r ysgolig yn cerdnad ei ddwylliant i chi'n ystod i gyd o droswyddiad? Well, I think I've already told you, the conditions for entry, so you have to be a male. You can't be a woman, you have to be under 45. You have to be a member of the incorporation. You have to pay very specific sums of money, 20 shillings, a quarter. You are not guaranteed any form of... the benefits are not guaranteed. It's merely a kind of you pay in and then if something happens post 13 years down the road you have to pay in I think for around seven years, and then you might get something if you apply to the fund, so the benefits are very open-ended. It's not a personal benefit that the contributor would receive if they ancestor their wife, and therefore they have to be married and married for a certain amount of years, and to a wife who is of a certain age below them, or rather not too young, Mae'r ring bounding honno gyda'n gallu rhaglen y cyfrifoniau, ond nol adonwch ar gyfer ei tynnu, neu y gynllun teimloattau i nhw'n gwirio ystod pan rydym i'r rhaglen i nhw. Dal i chi i'r rhaglen i nhw'n gwirio, mae'n ei rydym nesgraf. Mae hyn sy'n hyn i chi, a mae'n gydig yn cael ddarlogu, ond Fflaura yn dda i chi wneud gyda'r wrthoedol i nhw'n gwirio mwyn i chi'n gwirio, ond chi'n tynnu i chi ddweud â'r weeb. Mae'n ystafell ddangos o fewn i'w rhan. Gwyblog i'r ffordd. Ond, wrth gweithio symud na fydd o'r bwrdd acioedd y teimlo yn fydag i'r newid ymgyrchu wedi bod yn ddwynghiennol i'ch gyfnodol i'ch gyfnodol rhywal… Ysbkydd yn ei ddiwedd yn ytoed ffórwag, ym Oscar, ac rydw i'w ddweud gwaith wlad i'r Felly, we have charitable purposes set out for the trust. It is registered with OSCA. The purposes of the trust are the advancement of education and the advancement of the arts heritage cultural science, so we have had our purposes agreed and we have had a review of investment managers to see who we would give the bulk of the fund to, if it became available to us and we would give this to an investment manager. The trustee is minded to give grants only according to the income from the fund, so we wouldn't be dealing into the capital of the fund. We would have a small income from this fund, which we would use to give grants applying the purposes of the trust. The fund would then be managed as a charitable trust, especially as a charity fund manager. We hope that the fund would grow over time. One of the other points that we should make about the 1813 act is that it is very constrained as to how the fund is invested, whereas if we are able to transfer the assets to a charitable trust, we can then invest it more flexibly. We have done all the normal things that you would expect a charitable trust to do, and I am being handed a pot of money that it would go to a responsible charity fund manager. The WIDDAS fund provides financial support for WIDDAS of contributing members. The change that you are proposing to make is quite a fundamental change to the core purpose of the fund. We have heard that, normally, when changes to funds are made, they are changed to be something similar. Was any consideration given to changing the fund to almost provide the same core purpose but in a different way? Yes, but the answer to that is that the way in which people now expect to receive annuities or pensions or any kind of benefits to them in hardship has changed so radically since 1813, that we would essentially be trying to set up something in competition with, let's say, a standard life or an annuity provider. That would seem to be completely pointless to offer people the opportunity to invest in a very small fund when they have a marketplace of pensions, annuity providers and specialist investment managers. That would not be, to our mind, a competent use of the funds. In other words, what I am saying is that the way in which people receive benefits of their annuities or pensions nowadays has changed so radically even since the last payment was made out in 1988, because 1988, I think, was the start of a personal pension drive. The owners and employers, for example, to make sure that people have a pension available to them and the owners on each individual in Britain nowadays to think about investing for their future is so much greater than it was in 1813. The other point to make, I think, is that in 1813, when this act was passed, that was before the Trading Act of 1846, when the trades were rather clamped down on. In other words, in 1813 things were going presumably reasonably well for the trades. 1846 trading acts come along and they can no longer be the sort of closed shop that they were. They had to change their business. The relationship between the trades and how people choose to get annuities and pensions has changed dramatically in the intervening period. For us to try to set up a fund that mimics, let's say, an annuity provider now would just be, I think, not a good thing to do. Did the trustees take that decision themselves or did they get advice from someone else? We did take that decision ourselves. We felt that we were able to take that confidently because on the trustees there are people like myself who have experienced pension management. There are other lawyers and other people involved who have been involved in the probation service. The trustees are a set of people who have professional experience and we felt able and competent to take that decision. The other thing I should say to you is that the monies in the widow's fund are not just contributions from members of the incorporation, but the incorporation itself puts some money into that fund in the early stages. How and how much we don't know because it's lost in the annals of 19th century accounting. The incorporation was putting money in there. For us to promote the trust with purposes that are very akin to the purposes of the incorporation these days seems to us to be relevant and a good thing to do. In other words, we're not trusting very much in line with the purposes of the incorporation of bakers and that has some validity to it. Those purposes are charitable purposes and they tie in with Oscar's charity requirements. It seems fitting that we were not only reflecting what the original incorporation purposes were but also moving forward towards a public benefit and tying in with modern-day charitable purposes. Were any other options considered in how you would be able to make this change other than a private bill? How did you come to the decision that a private bill was the best way to take this forward? I think that one of the reasons it took us so long is that we have spent time considering whether the private bill was the right way to go. I don't know whether you want to say it's a lie or not. Some time was spent considering how this could be done. The bottom line is that the trustees, because they felt that it was no longer appropriate to be governed by the 1813 act and because they were looking to set up a charitable trust, wished to be governed by Oscar rather than by a statutory regulation, that it was appropriate to look to repealing the 1813 act and in order to vary the powers that they were given under the 1813 act and to meet their objectives that the private bill was the way forward. We did consider other options for varying the purposes of a trust, looking at an application to the Court of Session through a CEPRE scheme and also an application under section 9 of the Law Reform Miscellaneous Provisions Act 1990, which was looking at the possibility of varying the trust's purposes. The problem with both of those options was that, as you know, what the trustees wanted to do was quite at odds with the widow's fund purposes. Moving away from the purposes set out in the 1813 act, that really wasn't the best option because what they wanted to do was vary the powers of the trustees under the 1813 act. The point about that is that if you make the changes going through the CEPRE system going through the Court Session, you can only stick very much to the purposes of that. You might have been able to make some changes but you end up with a sort of rather watered down funds that, as I say, you think about all these big annuity providers, pension providers. You'd have a little tiny fund which was just tweaked enough to be perhaps tenable in today's society just about for a very small group of people, a very small group of people, the members of the incorporation. Whereas, as the trust stands, the new trust stands, we're able to offer benefits to the wider community. For example, if we offer a grant so that there's baking in a primary school, baking in a prison, of course, we're able to offer wider benefits through that trust, then we would be in a twiddled about scheme which would have arisen from any adjustments that the Court might let us make to this act, which, as I say, is incredibly of its time. Your only option was to make the fundamental change that you wanted. To make genuinely good use of the assets in line with the spirit of the incorporation of bakers at the City of Edinburgh, we really felt that that was the best way to go so that we could actually get practical, modern usage out of this money that had been invested both by members of the incorporation of bakers and by the incorporation itself who were interested in promoting baking in the City of Edinburgh. That was one way to use this money and creating a charitable vehicle was, of course, the way to encase it in a fully responsible mechanism that fits today's purposes. You promote the charitable fund in promoting education and training. How are you going to promote that to the wider community? Are you going to promote it within the existing baking community? There was quite a lot of dialogue with Oscar on this when we were setting up the charitable trust. The trustees have considered how they would promote it through the baking community and also through the usual forms of social media, et cetera, but essentially establishing a network which they could use to promote what they want to do. Two of our trustees are active. One is a CEO of a community breadshare, Deborah Riddle, who would have been here but unfortunately couldn't join us this week. She's an active member of the baking community and Wendy Barry is the slow food guru for Scotland. We do have people who are actually involved in the baking industry as trustees and members of the incorporation. The plan would be that if we were able to move on from this bill, get this bill through and create the trust, then we would be in a position to get more members of the incorporation who would be either bakers or people who might be suitable trustees for the trust at a future date. That way we would be in a position to have applications for grants coming into us. We're confident that we would be in a position to review a number of grants on an annual basis and apply the funds appropriately, according to the purposes of the charity. Schools will be able to apply for grants as well? Anyone could apply for grants, as long as it fits the purposes of the trust. How will you assess the success of that going forward? Will it be the trustees that will do that? Will they review on an annual basis? I think that part of our job as a charity for trustees is to review the success of how we're meeting the purposes of the trust. We would have to do that in a business plan and review the business plan regularly and say how we're meeting our objectives. That's right, that's all part of it. That's why we're going under the Oscar banner, because we're forced to do all these appropriate things to make sure that we're using the money properly. We've spoken about the two potential beneficiaries that have been identified. How confident are you that there are no other potential beneficiaries? Very confident. Very, very confident. That is a fact. Yes, very confident. What brought you to that position that you're very confident? How have you come to that? I've come to qualifying members, and there are only two qualifying members who have made contributions, who have wives, who therefore are potential beneficiaries. It's sort of as simple as that really. Two of the members of the incorporation are, I hate to say it quite elderly, they're not here so I probably can say it quite elderly. They've been members for a very long time and they know the history of the incorporation. In fact, there are minutes that the incorporations are held and recorded over quite a few years. We are extremely confident that there are no other potential beneficiaries. Of course, we have put out as part of this bill public notices. The members of the trust have been quite active and been involved. When you say that they know what's going on, the members of the incorporation and the members that have been paying in, are they quite active within this fund? There is some overlap between the members and the trustees of the widows fund and the trustees of the new charitable trust. I would say that they have been actively involved. I'm just one final question relating to drafting regarding the payments to identify potential future beneficiaries. It states in the section 1 that the trustees may, but not must make them an offer, may confers power, must confers an obligation. The point is that the act is giving authority to the trustees. It's empowering them to make the payment. On the basis that they make the payment, the fund is dissolved and the assets are transferred to the charity. If you look at the sequence in the statute, phase 2 won't happen until phase 1 has happened. The payments have to be made to the beneficiaries. The act gives them the power to do that. Once that is done, the remaining assets get transferred to the charitable trust. Thank you very much for coming along this morning and, as agreed in the agenda item, we will now move into private session.