 Welcome to politics for the people. I'm your host Stephanie Stoll Dalton. This weekly talk show is to review and discuss important issues of our time and in our news. Today's topic is Putin's nuclear blackmail. The panel is here to take on this discussion and do some unpacking of its meaning and and its possibilities for potentially ending, and I'd like to welcome them now. We have here to discuss J. find out welcome to the panel. And Tim Apachele. Welcome to our panel for this show today. Right. Well, let's get right on to the topic which may sound a little bit complicated. The Putin's nuclear blackmail so let's let's do a little bit of defining of that and making sure we all understand the topic before we start the analysis and review. So J. J. What, what is Russia doing by using nuclear blackmail on Ukraine and the world is threatening nuclear war and Putin tries to do that in order to get them to back down and be afraid of him. And he's floated a number of things like that. You know, we we heard about, you know, weapons of mass destruction form of chemical weapons and biological weapons and it comes from him. Sometimes it comes from, you know, his really interesting charade about saying, well, so let's see. Zelensky said he was going to do this. And what he really means is I'm going to do this thing raises the specter. He raised the specter of nuclear war early on when he said, don't forget, Russia is a nuclear power and indeed it is nuclear power and they they spent an ordered amount of money. You know, if they spent that money on their own economy, they'd be happier now believe me. Anyway, so the question and it goes to, you know, the Polish migs, you know, that people were talking about to go, you know, to fly a fly zone over Ukraine and it goes to any kind of extent, escalation by the West. But you notice that you notice that the United States, the Blinken and Lloyd Austin, they're they're they're it's different now. They're saying we're going to we're going to give weapons. Don't try to scare us. We got your number. We understand, you know, what you're about. And we aren't going to be affected by your stamping your feet like some, you know, two year old. And I think that's really important is the sort of global geopolitical psychology involved. We didn't we didn't really have his number when he threatened nuclear war in the first place. But we know more about him now. How we know more about ourselves, we know more about how the coalition functions or doesn't in some instances. And I think they're totally right. You know, to the extent that Blinken and Austin and Biden have taken these recent steps that they now understand, you know, I've told you before that in the practice of law when you're doing litigation and settlement practice, if you will. And you're doing the dosy do and people in the community in general, even if they've been involved, litigation don't really understand what happens when you put a pathological lawyer or client on the other side. You have to treat them differently. You know, the first step is everything in writing. Second step is don't take them seriously and make your own moves that will avoid getting intimidated. And there are a lot of lawyers who do both sides of that. That's the way it is. The good news is that you say blackmail and it was blackmail but query is it still blackmail. You know, my own view is that, hey, you want to stamp your feet stamp your feet, but we are not going to be affected by that. We don't take you seriously sorry, because you know, yeah, you may you may let fly some nuclear weapons even tactical nuclear weapons, but you're going to pay a terrible price. You're going to destroy your country and your life. You will never you will never be able to do anything again. Just one bomb. Yeah. And it's hard to believe that any human being who has gotten as far as he's gotten would destroy the world. I mean, it's a logical possibility. I wouldn't diminish that possibility, but I would I would say how serious do we take it? How does a democracy play this kind of strategy against the a white a wise guy. I'll call him a wise guy like put. Well, we've been talking about thinking about and making treaties over the mutual mutually assured destruction or mad proposition that's been been posted so that to describe the steamy that we all thought that we were in. And that steamy is that they they're nuclear we're nuclear too and so are other countries around the world. And that I wanted to to ask about in Putin's thinking about moving on this and threatening the world with his nukes. How did he get out of that steamy position and and and threaten what how is being in that mad steamy position, allowing him to think he, he can use this as blackmail. Maybe Tim, does that make any sense to you. I'm just kind of questioning how I mean, when you're not dealing with a full deck of cards, you could think anything you want. And Jay, Jay inferred to it that, you know, you got a psychopathological, you know, individual on the other side of the table. So I mean, and as Jay suggested, you either fall forward or you don't. I mean, here's what Putin said I mean, talk about stamping your feet he said, Any country interfering with Ukraine will be met with a lightly fast response from Moscow. Okay, so guess what, you have 43 nations that have been interfering in Ukraine. We've been doing it since February 24. Now, the, the amount of interference is going to ratchet up. We're giving them, you know, Ukraine offensive weapons instead of defensive weapons. So guess what, we've been interfering Ukraine. So what is this little comment from Putin, recent comment. What are we supposed to do with that. And I suggest Jay has the right answer. Ignore it. You know, go ahead. Well, and then, you know, we have the United Nations Secretary General meeting with Putin yesterday. And, you know, I listened to that interview and he basically said, Putin agrees in, in all theory about allowing a corridor for the, you know, for the, the citizens that get out of a miracle. Great. Putin, he agreed to that before and what did he do, he put them on a bus and send them into Russia to be used as hostage negotiation chips to get prisoners out of, you know, out of Ukraine. So he's using them either as hostage chips, or he's using them as spies to go back into Ukraine. So why would you believe this man. And so the 43 nations have to account for that, and to say what is his word worth. And if anyone is going to start threatening the world with mad mutual assured destruction, maybe they should get mad and take him out. That's interesting. Thank you. If if Putin, who has not been diagnosed as the as of the miscreant that he is whatever his projections and all of his stand has his statements indicate that he is off his rocker but there's no diagnosis. The Russian people are still satisfied with him in that position. So why is it that he continues to not get to the conclusion so he doesn't, he's not working. The logic, like the first step is I shoot my missiles off and then they shoot their missiles back at me. So that's a pretty basic stimulus response thing Jay. So how is it that he stepped aside from that does that mean that he believes we will do nothing we is in the West. Does that mean he's so pompous and egocentric that he doesn't believe he could be taken down. Jay, what do you think about where he's coming from on that side of it that he can rinse around and do this blackmail with no no consequences. I want to go back to the beginning of your question. You know, I don't think he's crazy. I don't think that Trump is crazy either. By the way, they're, you know, they really have a lot of similarities. And if you want to know what Trump would do in the second term, watch Putin. Putin is a playbook for him. Great point. Always was. But you know, I think I think he's crazy. He's just, you know, pathological just because your pathological doesn't mean you're crazy. You know, he's not on on pills. He's not about my view. He's not about to wreck the world. It's not mutually assured destruction that the Cold War mentality really doesn't apply. We're not there anymore. We're in a different place. And Putin, Putin has a purpose. Okay, it's a purpose that changes as any good tactician. You know, you see what the situation is. You look at the environment, you keep on tuning up and changing, you know, what you're doing and where you're going, but you always have a general direction. And we can figure out what that is, can't we? He wants part, at least part of Ukraine. All of it. He can get that. He wants, you know, other countries, and that's being revealed now. He's, you know, cutting off the gas in Poland and what was it, Bulgaria, and his moving troops around in various countries around Ukraine. He's got troops there right now, and he controls puppet states in those places right now. And he has, he has his spies and agents and propaganda machines working for money in a variety of places around Ukraine. He's already involved in a hybrid war. So he's got a plan. The plan is to move the battery west as far as he can get. That's what the plan is. So I think, you know, to me, that explains it all. And he miscalculated. I think the national news is national press, at least the Times and the Washington Post are right to say that he miscalculated. He thought that the EU would fall apart. He thought he could scare Poland and he could scare all of Western Europe. But it hasn't really worked out that way for him. And so that's a surprise for him. And maybe it's a surprise for us. It's probably a surprise for Biden. But it worked. And Biden has, at least up to this point, don't know how sustainable it is. He's held the coalition together. In fact, I would say, you know, the Lloyd Austin trip has improved the coalition. It has brought the coalition together. It has committed them to more and more aggressive action, you know, every day. And this is terrific. Because now, going back to your original question, it seems like to me is that is that Putin has been, we want to call it to some limited extent he's been neutralized because we now understand him better. We have our own game going. And it's very desperate that he moves troops into these surrounding countries that he cuts off the gas in two or three of them. That he makes these threats about nuclear war that he trots out these, these, what do you want to call it, the civilian weapons, all these things are slightly desperate. But I think his, his, his point is the ultimate view of it is, is clear. And, and our point should be no, you can't. You're a two year old, and we don't buy it. And we are bigger and stronger and more long lasting than you are. Well, that's a good point. We are. The US isn't saying that as strongly as is the Ukrainian president, who says that there is no giveaway of an inch of Ukrainian territory. Okay. Biden said, and Biden too is take because that's what actually I take that by Biden said if you, if you venture on NATO. No, not NATO one inch. Oh yeah, yeah, that's right on on Nate but what's Linsky is saying is he's not given up anything the Ukrainians are not giving up any of that land, or any of those territories that that the Russians have taken over so so we're at another tiny place here so what I wanted to go to is to, to ask for opinions on in a complete steiny like this the first one that the, the, the mad steiny, he's gone beyond that and we've done nothing. And these have made it perfectly clear that they have their outcome and that's the only one they will accept. And so what, where do we go in strategy and tactics as the West or the US trying to support Zolensky and the Ukrainians. Tim, what are you thinking about how in the world can that strategy be reviewed to become more powerful. Well, I think that that occurred today. occurred today rather than giving commitments of 800 million 700 million here and there. President United States and I think Congress has acknowledged that this is going to be a longer term conflict atrocities against humanity. Genocide that this is going to go on for a long time. President Biden has asked Congress for $33 billion, not 700 or 800 million, but 33 billion. That is the next step to communicate to Putin that we're in, we're in, we're all in. And also Congress approved an old World War two Len Lies Act. Oh yeah, 50 billion dollars Len Lies to Ukrainian, in addition to the 33 billion. So we're potentially get $88 billion to tell Putin you're in for a long haul here. And I think that is the next step. Germany came in and said, the Vice Chancellor of Germany said, we'd have to try the unrealistic to break from Russian gas. Okay, so now Germany's acknowledging that this is getting, you know, this has gone too far and we're going to have to take the bitter pill, swallow it, and say no to Russian oil and gas. Once Germany does it, the rest of Europe will follow. They're not there yet, but they're getting there. So these are the next steps that your question is asking. Okay. And what you're pointing out is more sanctions on gas and oil. So that's kind of been in the deal all along that Russia knew they were going to get these sanctions and Putin did. Well, no, he didn't know it because it's slow to come. I don't think Putin thought this was going to come at all. Jay's right. He, you know, the times in the post actually has written that he under, you know, he must calculate it completely. And now he's trying to dig himself out of it by being the two year old that he is. There's a move in Congress now to sell the assets the sanctions froze. So there's a lot of Russian assets in this country in the banks and so forth that have been frozen that are not going anywhere. And, you know, my suggestion that we could do ago was the lawyers who would represent the families of the victims in Ukraine probably have a good cause of action to sue and get judgments against Russian against any of the older darks involved against the general whoever. But take those assets, you know, lay a judgment on those assets, elect against those assets because it's billions and billions is not a little amount of money. You know, why should the tears even move in Congress right now is to sell those assets and take the proceeds and use the proceeds to defend Ukraine. More money Tim. Right. And that's also to rebuild to set that money aside to also reinvest. But the question here is, have, has the US in the West actually changed the strategy from the timid. And wariness of Putin's threat about the nuclear war, the nuclear rocket that he's going to send. So have we now has Biden led into stepping forward into a more aggressive stance that may go beyond what it is that Putin is saying if there's anything he's not liking this, the he's calling the arming of Ukraine he's called out that that is getting close to his red line. So what, what do you think is going on there. Tim. Are we. I did previously said that he stepped up from 800 million to 33 billion, plus another 50 billion in land lease programs so short of putting NATO boots in Ukraine which he's not going to do. And I don't think he's going to support a fly a fly zone freeze. I think Biden is doing everything he can plus working with the EU and NATO to say hey look, if, if, if you can't get oil and gas from Russia, the United States will step up. We'll step up production we we don't like to do that because we're trying to cut back on fossil fuel production, but we're in a time of proxy war we're in a time of war. I know there's going to be some pain but let us help you with our our gas and oil supplies and try to supplement that which you're going to lose from Russia. Well okay now but does that jeopardize the West, in terms of Putin's reacting with his blackmail. It doesn't jeopardize it it puts us in partnership. It puts us in partnership with the EU. We're all together in this and that means we all have to share some pain. Not talking about the sanctions absolutely take everything away from and on all the money here in this country. I'm talking about taxpayer dollars paying for this war, and I agree with Jay's comment is to take those assets frozen and not put the burden on United States taxpayers, but start pulling it from the people responsible for this mess. But is that with Russians red like Jay. You're asking you're asking whether we are still affected by the blackmail. And the answer is, if we're putting bigger sanctions on, if we're sending them more weapons, if we're multiplying the amount of money we're giving them by 10 times or more, more much more. We're saying, you know stamp your feet what do you want. We're not we're not impressed anymore. We're not taking you seriously. You can threaten all you want but it's sorry. We don't buy it. Well that's what I meant about putting in jeopardy. When is Putin has Putin been bluffing all along about pushing the. Yes, the answer is yes. You know, it's like Trump you can't believe a word the man says, you know, the United Nations guitarist went over there try to talk to him. And he got yeah, I like that piece in principle. And he didn't mean a word of it and guitarist knew that. And that was what got in the press. You can't believe a word he says you get into a discussion to allow humanitarian exits from Maripole. And, and next thing you know he's shooting on the people who were trying to escape. So what you have is a liar. And it's part of his MO. So if he lies about this, sorry, he lies about everything. It's all a lie. And his talk about embracing settlement possibilities. That's that's horse horse hockey horse hockey. And it always will be you can't you can't trust the man and we have learned that. And having learned that we don't treat anything he says as as as serious. Well, I'm going to change how will we know it's the old story. How do you know how do you know that Vladimir Putin is lying. He's moving his lips. And how do you know when he's not lying. You don't. All right, well, Jay, do you agree that that that we are stepping over into pulling, you know, the bluff. If it was a bluff that Putin is going to do this. I mean, are we now opening up the West to be new. Because how would this is asking the same questions, Stephanie. Well, I'm trying to say the premise he came in on that Putin came in on this whole thing was that he had the nukes and he was going to use them. That's how he was going to control the whole world. He doesn't just want Ukraine. We all knew that. There's two questions here. One is, is he going to use the nukes in accordance with his threat. Exactly. Okay, smarter guys than us who have been looking at that question for a month. And their answer is he's not. And I don't think we can sit here and speculate on whether he is or is not. We don't we don't really know for sure. Yes. As I said before, he logically a logical possibility is he could destroy the world. But sometimes you have to, you have to take a risk to save the world. And the people in Europe, you know, the Western coalition, they have understood that the world is at an inflection point. We can't let this man get away with it. It's so outrageous. We must contain him. And if that means taking a risk, we take a risk. Well, all right, Tim. I, is that kind of a risk. Okay, to take in a democracy with the people not knowing I mean who's the input is only from the top. I mean, that was the case with here she here she might not a sake Truman made that decision with his own group. Now is this the same situation where Biden has actually opened us up to having something like this happen. What do you think. And has he checked with any I mean where where's the people's voice. Well, he's the commander in chief. He has the commander in chief, despite what half the country thinks that he wasn't legitimately elected. He's the commander chief of all, all military forces. And the answer is, yeah, he has a job and responsibility to react in kind. Should there be any launch that'll be the end of the world. And to answer your, what you're really getting at is, should we count how to everything Putin is stamping his feet about, because he says he has a button and he can push it at any time he wants. Well, so can we. So that is mutual destruction and we've been in that world for over 70 years now. Yeah. Okay, so guess what, if Putin it really is at the edge of, of, of, you know, destroying the world. So much is better my comment that he needs to be taken out. Okay, if this is really true that we are that close to to the lot him launching nukes against either limited or against the United States or the NATO for countries, then all together, he is unbridled uncontrolled a mad dog. And what do you do with a mad dog. You have to put it down. But how do you take him out same thing with the North Korea. I'm pretty sure his generals are going, you know, we're not really going to make first right here, because you want the dumb bass, or you want Kev, or you want interest in Poland or, or Moldova or you, you know, sorry, but he also has military generals that he's going to have to answer to on these on these topics. And I'm sure they're not happy about him. Save or rattling the nuclear button. Well, as I understand it, the nuclear button that he has is is a Nagasaki or Hiroshima bomb. Okay, it's like that. So it's, it's not going to eradicate the US, but it would eradicate. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You don't understand how that works. You don't understand how that works. Once they go up, they go up. And they are far bigger than the bad. Well, that's what I've read. There's virtually thousands of them that he has. So look, you wanted to launch an attack on the United States or the Western world. He has the ability to do it. Hey, Stephanie, let me use a, an analogy that kids play with. You start with water squirt guns. Right. And then when that doesn't work, you go to a cup of water. When that doesn't go, you go to a pan of water. And when that doesn't work, you bring out the garden hose and the whole living room is trashed. Okay, so the bottom line is, once you start unleashing nukes, that's pretty much the beginning of the end. And so I don't think the world's going to let that happen. Well, I was just, because how are we not going to let it happen that if he wants to launch one nuke on DC, or New York, or whatever. Well, how are we going to know he can do that? That is the blackmail. There's no way to get to. What are you saying, Stephanie? You're saying that you're really, really concerned about this, that you believe he will do it, and that it will be the end of the world. But what are you saying about the steps we should take in dealing with his threats? I need to hear that from you. Well, yes, that's what I want to hear is from Biden. No, I need to hear it from you. Well, from me, I want to know that we are in that jeopardy if we're going to do that. And Biden's going to continue to step over Putin's line, which is a little bit phasey, a little bit wobbly, I think. But, and I think, but Biden's process right now is to just push it as much as he can. And I'd like to hear, know that that's what we're doing is we're nudging it, nudging it, nudging so that we get to the play, we get to a place where we will know that they will nuke us with one. Okay, or we can assume that we've gone over the line. When is Putin going to really say, that's it, that's it, that's it you did it, you're too far over that's too much, too much of a boon for the Ukrainians you're giving them too many weapons I'm not putting up with this. So I'm going to, I'm going to send new and damage us, because I with all of your descriptions of his, his, his difficulties, he wouldn't have any problem with that just like Stalin didn't have any problem with killing millions of people. So they could wipe out New York City again, or DC. So what I want to know does Biden address that what are our leaders think is that okay to take that chance. I think Jay, this fan NATO, while you're at it. Is it okay for Biden to do what Biden is doing Stephanie is that what you're asking. I'm just wanting to know where if we're because I'm facing going back to Washington DC. I'd rather be here. Okay, actually has some skin here. Okay, in the game. It has occurred to me. So anyway, that's what that's why I'm very interested to hear your opinions on that because he's not going to launch 5000. You're asking whether what Biden is doing is right in my opinion. It's right in my opinion. Yeah, okay, and I want him to do as much right as he can, but I want him to put us on the alert like death con a or whatever if it's going to tease this guy into action. We've we've got a live shark on the line. Stephanie, do you really think that would help because it would it would create an emergency situation. And there would be lots of implications. For example, everybody in the country would be terrified. The world would think we are really, really desperate and we're in crisis. And that we're weak. It would be a sign of weakness. Now what we're talking about is a guy who is trying to project power and strength and threat. You don't answer that by projecting weakness to you because they give him options he doesn't even have now. Well I'd like to see more articles about the studies that are being done about what what they call these things they're you know the predictions on what he might do and what that might be and I'm sure they're doing that. I'm sure that all of those think tanks tanks and all the rest of the intelligence groups are looking at that what what is the game here. What I'm sure they have Stephanie and as I said early on, you know they have examined this and they are part of the decision process and in the Oval Office and they collectively have decided right or wrong they I believe they're right that they can't they can't be intimidated when he stamps to speak. Okay, decision and space that all the resources available to the president of the United States. Well, I'll just say that I'd like to be in the same position of having some knowledge like the Ukrainians had, because the minute somebody said the war has started on the border. Look how many people got out of there and like three days, three million they knew that they were in jeopardy and they left. Okay, so, and I'm sure that was under advice etc and I would just like to know that that's what's happening in our administration is we're preparing all of these end game and play and plays war games all the war games what's what are these war colleges and their war games what are they saying about the same, they must have played the scenario out 1000 times so hey, cut us in on the deal. Is that strategy. That's helping some way. I'm thinking it go to Defcon five and scare the pants off everybody. No, just have a referendum on what we should do. He's the commander in chief like it or not. Our country in our lives depend on him. And we might as well get behind him, especially when we would agree with him. I'm certainly behind him and one yes that that 300 and 30 million people are to get together and be of the same mind. Not going to work. And to him to tell you what what he's going to do. No, no, not at all. Not at all. No, no, let him figure out the strategy. Okay, Tim we're going to have to finish up here let's have a comment, final comment from you and then Jay you can close us. My final comment. Oh boy, oh boy. Hey, you know what, when parents are faced with a child, a toddler that holds his breath. There are some parents that will go, Oh my God, he's turning, he's turning red. And they, they, they fall for it. They, they, they pacify the child with whatever what the child wants. And then there's the more savvy parents ago. They'll get over it. And they ignore the child. And guess what, the child gets over it. Putin is that child that toddler, the holding the breath tantrum that's taking place. NATO and the United States are the savvy parents are going to go, he'll get over it. So don't be, don't be intimidated by a child that holds his breath. And in the meantime, he's committing atrocities against humanity, genocide, and the world stands idly by to go, gee, I don't, I don't want to upset that child. No, that's, as Jay said, more than once at the Holocaust Museum, why the War Department wouldn't bomb Auschwitz. We don't want to make hair Hitler any angrier. Well, too late. Right. Well, it's not that it's that what is the point? What are the options? That's what I'm interested in. It's just like, we knew a lot of the options is meet force with force. Right. Yes, they get stay boots out of Ukraine. But exactly what Joe Biden's doing wraps it up from 800 million to 33 billion. And get them the weapons they need and be damned with defensive weapons, give them defensive and offensive weapons. I don't care if Biden says, you'll see lightning fast response from Moscow. Who cares. All right, so we're bluffing bluffing. He's holding his breath. Don't fall for it. Okay, that's where we are now. Jay, we're, you know, we're not, we're calling this bluff, okay, because we're inching up and we're nudging forward to do what we can do for this country to save it from annihilation and genocide. So last comment, Jay. It's a poker game. I have to recognize it as a poker game. And yeah, and we have to support the leader. And we have to be together on this. Our greatest fear, our greatest risk is to have internal distinction and not support the leader. Absolutely. Good point, really good point. So, okay, well, we're out of time from what I know about time here for the show. And thank you very much for your discussion and your speculations and analyses and they're all very informative. So this show is on every week on Thursday, so we'll look forward to seeing you next week. And Jay and Tim, thanks and thank you audience of viewers for tuning in. I'm Stephanie Dalton, your host Aloha. Thanks for watching and donate to us at think.kawaii.com. Mahalo.