 The next item of business is a debate in the name of Fiona Hyslop on the future of public transport, the fair fairs review. I would invite those members who would wish to speak in the debate to please press the request to speak buttons. I call on cabinet secretary Fiona Hyslop around 12 minutes please. Scotland's public transport system is a key enabler for growth and opportunity, providing vital links between where people live, learn, earn and socialise. Transport is the one service that impacts on all of us all over Scotland and more of the time. We know that access to affordable and reliable public transport services help people and communities to connect to jobs, education, public services, leisure, recreation and friends and family. We recognise too that a sustainable and viable public transport system is vital in achieving our ambitions on net zero, as well as our target to reduce distance driven in cars by 20 per cent by 2030. The fairs fairs review brings together a timely overview with information, analysis and international comparisons to help us collectively to challenge ourselves on what the future of public transport in Scotland should be. It tells us that we are unusual internationally in having completely free concessionary travel. We subsidise rail and ferries far more than bus. Weekday journeys on rail are now 80 per cent of pre-pandemic levels. Weekday bus journeys are around 72 per cent of pre-pandemic levels. Bus passenger numbers fell by 21 per cent in the 10 years leading up to 2019-20, whilst demand for road, ferry, aviation and cycling all saw growth in the same period. Countries such as Singapore have a national system and support but have more of a state control. It tells us much, much more and I would urge people to read the review and the detail in it. Public transport is central to delivering the First Minister's missions to tackle poverty and protect people from harm, to deliver a fair, green and growing economy and to prioritise our public services. That is why, in the 2024-25 budget, we are spending £3.9 billion on transport across Scotland with almost £2.5 billion of that focusing on public transport network. That includes £430 million in funding for concessionary travel and bus services, £308 million in active travel, low-carbon and other transport policy, £1.6 billion to operate, maintain and improve Scotland's railway and £524 million to expand our vital support for rural and island connectivity. The review reiterates our commitment to providing financial support to access public transport for those groups across society who face particular geographical and other challenges in accessing public services, labour markets, education and leisure opportunities. The review confirms our commitment to maintain the existing eligibility to the national concessionary travel schemes for those groups who currently benefit, which comprise over 2.3 million people all across Scotland. Those are the most generous schemes of their kind in the UK, enabling over 3 million journeys per week. We will develop a pilot project to extend free travel on rail services for companion and accompanying eligible blind persons, concessionary travel card holders. We will also develop the proposals to provide free foot passenger travel on inter-island ferries for under-22-year-old island residents and extend existing national ferry concessionary scheme to under-22-year-old island residents. We want to do more to support fair paying passengers, which is why we will develop a proposal for a bus flat fares. We will learn lessons from the ScotRail Peak Fairs removal pilot to inform medium to longer-term rail fares reform. That will all be complemented by developing a bus service improvement plan and a delivery framework over the next 18 months to improve future availability of bus services and establishing a national forum on the future of public transport to co-ordinate improvement of a delivery of a quality, accessible, available and affordable integrated public transport system. Despite the significant investment in our strategic direction that is set out by the Government, our public transport system faces a number of complex challenges. I want this debate to allow us collectively and openly discuss this and with consideration. There are changes now in how and when people travel due to the growth of working from home since the onset of the Covid pandemic. That has led to reduced passage and on bus there are particular challenges. Indeed, we heard that in the last session that predate Covid. So reduced passenger numbers result in reduced revenues flowing to public transport operators, which then impacts on the financial viability of services. So we need to grow patronage across all modes, but particularly in the fragile bus sector, not least because bus is currently most heavily used by lower income groups. Therefore, any reduction in bus services will impact most greatly on those on lower incomes, potentially limiting their links to jobs and better paid jobs, education and other opportunities in life. The need to grow patronage is made all the more urgent because of recent years' rises in inflation, meaning that public transport operators now bear increased costs in providing services, energy, pay etc. That can lead to pressure on operators to increase fares, thereby reducing the attractiveness of public transport or resulting in requests for additional government support. Similarly, individuals and households face increased pressure on their budgets and the ability to absorb the costs of public transport due to rising household bills. Those financial pressures are particularly pronounced for people living in poverty, for whom public transport fares account for a greater proportion of their disposable income. In addressing all of those challenges, Government has to negotiate a complex delivery landscape with different ownership models and different regulatory regimes applying across different modes. So, whilst our ScotRail and Caledonia sleeper services are under public ownership, our public bus networks primarily operate under private ownership and control. The levers that we have to deploy and the amount of control that we can exercise vary across the system. In addition and significantly, given the importance of Government funding to support our public transport system, the financial situation facing the Scottish Government is by far the most challenging since devolution. The shocks of over a decade of austerity, a hard Brexit, the Covid-19 pandemic and other factors are placing extreme inflationary pressures on public finances. It is therefore more important than ever to prioritise support to those that need it most and ensure value for money in our public services. All those issues could have a substantial detrimental impact on our public transport system and on the communities, individuals and businesses who rely on it. I think that this Parliament is at its best when we all come with our considered views, our experiences from our constituencies, but also to relay how we can see not just the immediate issues that we are sure trying to address in the short term, but to plot that course for the longer term and that is what I hope will be obtained from the open debate here today. The fair fairs review has looked at individual policy interventions on the cost and the availability of public transport as well as specific transport funding and delivery models adopted in a range of other countries across the world considering the implications and lessons learned for Scotland for more fundamental reform. The review has included a comprehensive analysis of subsidy funding, patronage and benchmarking against international comparatives. Through workshops undertaken in conjunction with the Poverty Alliance, it has considered the lived experience of those impacted by poverty and how access to public transport affects their lives. Indeed, this Parliament had a debate from a committee to report on employability for those facing poverty and transport was an aspect of that debate as well. I thank the cabinet secretary for giving way. Rural bus routes are in decline with only 17 per cent of residents in remote and rural areas using the bus at least once a month. While I appreciate the city buses, routes offer stronger financial incentives, residents in rural areas deserve equal access to reliable and frequent bus services. Therefore, would the cabinet secretary support the implementation of provisions in the 2019 Transport Act to allow local councils to propose bus services in their area to address the gaps in the bus services? That is why the 2019 act, brought in by the Scottish Government, is to enable that choice. Different local authorities are having different approaches. Highland Council, for example, has taken control and indeed had transfer of both staff and buses to run an example of what they can do in terms of the area. It is in the Inverness City itself. I agree with her that some of the biggest challenges are for rural and semi-rural areas. Sustainability and a sustainable system in a privately operated and run and regulated system is really important. I stress that we need to give confidence and support to the bus operators and our private operators who are looking at innovative ways of trying to tackle that. I am particularly impressed with Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire working with first bus, for example, to try to address issues that are not just about the city but also about the shire. The review sets out a number of short, medium and long-term recommendations and actions to ensure a sustainable, integrated approach to public transport affairs and funding that supports the future long-term viability of a public transport system that is more accessible, available and affordable for people throughout Scotland and reflecting on that remark, rural and semi-rural areas will be central to our thinking as well. Specificly on bus, I have previously highlighted the proposal to develop an area-based pilot scheme to provide flat fares on bus travel or reduce fares on zonal integrated travel for those who currently pay to travel by bus for 22-year-olds to 60-year-olds. That will help to grow the bus market as well as assist individuals with their travel costs. To increase stability in the bus system, I have a question about transport to Scotland. I welcome the open debate that we are having. Just to try to get a little bit more understanding of our thinking around the flat fares and how it would potentially work, would that be just a city-wide thing or would it be an Aberdeenshire, for example, coming into the city or would there be a distance limit on that if there is any more information? Those are things that we will want to work out. I am keen to see rural and city comparisons because, going back to the other point, some of the challenges are particularly around semi-rural and rural areas. Of course, because we will be working with private operators, those discussions have to take place to identify what would make sense. The distance issue is quite an interesting one because, where we have seen this previously, it can operate within city areas particularly well, but the geography of Scotland means that there are quite long distances. In fact, Mark Ruskell was reflecting on the journey and the route that he was talking about. It was £11.12, so we need to work through that to make sure that it is a sensible proposition. To increase stability in the bus system, Transport Scotland, working with Government, industry and other stakeholders, will develop a bus service improvement plan over the next 18 months on ferries. We will look at the road equivalent tariff for the Clyde and Hebrides Network. It has been very successful. We want to protect and support island residents, but we will consider further alternatives for non-islanders, particularly in vehicle fares during the summertime table. Better integration between public transport services is also vital, and we want to set out how we can work with different modes of transport. There is a lot of work already happening on this, particularly the developments on rail and ferry, to improve integration for those who have to use multiple services to complete end-to-end. If I can continue, it is important that we recognise that due to legislative requirements, it is a complex area. We will have to look at some of the issues more in the medium to longer term, and I know that people will be patient for us to move on, and we will be commencing a review of the transport governance. I have highlighted the rail peak fares removal. I am sure that people may want to comment on that on their remarks, but we also want to ensure, and this is a very important point, that we inform considerations of a wider roll-out of an integrated ticketing system and a national bus or multimodal travel card, but also fundamentally develop proposals for national or regional fare structures across all modes in Scotland, as seen in other parts of Europe and globally. That really is the prize. That could transform how people pay and value public transport journeys, encouraging more people to use it. We will be looking at different methods. We will reflect on the particular needs of different communities. We want to develop a more accessible, available, affordable, high-quality, integrated public transport system. It is a top priority for the Government. It will help us to deliver on so many other ways. I welcome the debate today. I am keen to hear the reflections of members and how Scotland together can further strengthen our approach to public transport. Not just for next month or next year. This is for future decades. I welcome the debate. I now call on Graham Simpson on behalf of the Scottish Conservatives around eight minutes. Thank you very much. Apologies, I am a little bit hoarse today. I also apologise for having to leave as soon as I have spoken. I spoke to the Presiding Officer about it on behalf of the Cabinet Secretary. Apologies for that. We have been waiting a long time for this. It is way overdue. If there had been the equivalent of waiting for a train, we would have jumped in a car and got there quicker. The Fairfares review was keenly awaited, but nothing was promised. To that end, it did not disappoint. When the cross-party group on sustainable transport reported on the Scottish Government's commitment to reduce car mileage by 20 per cent by 2030, one of the recommendations was that public transport should be made more affordable. That should have been the starting point of this review, because for Fairfares, you should read affordable fares, fares that make you want to jump on a bus or a train or a ferry instead of using the car. The Scottish Government released figures yesterday that showed that just 10 per cent of people use public transport to get to work. Therein lies the challenge. If we compare public transport use to pre-pandemic levels, then we are still a third down on rail and 17 per cent on buses. This review could and should have been packed with concrete commitments to change that. I will let Mr Mason in a minute. I will tell Mr Mason of the kind of government speak that we have got used to because it offers no concrete action. It is a kicking the can down the pothold road plan. John Mason. I thank Mr Simpson for giving way. While I accept that the fares is one issue, although some people still use their cars when they have a bus pass. Clearly some people, it is more of a cultural thing or they just want to use their car. Of course I accept that. Some people like using their car. Some people have to use their car, I would say to Mr Mason, because there isn't a bus. I have to point out the shortcomings of this review, but I also want to help in this debate by suggesting things that we could do. I think we are at a starting point. We need to continue that conversation. Although I might be critical in this debate, we should continue to talk. I hope the cabinet secretary will take some of these ideas on board and that we can work together. In the review, the word pilot appears 12 times. Pilots in government speak mean a delay in doing anything. It says we will develop a proposal for a bus flat fares pilot for an area based scheme to provide flat fares on bus travel or reduce fares on zonal integrated travel for consideration in future budgets. As I pointed out in the briefing with Transport Scotland officials, we don't need a pilot loathiam busses have been using flat fares with a daily cap for years and it works. There's your pilot. We just need to get on with it if I can have the time back. Certainly, yes. Mark Ruskell. I appreciate the point that the member makes, that it's important that policy is evidence-based. Although we have the evidence of loathiam, we don't have evidence about how a flat fare might work in an urban, rural area of the type that's typical of much of Scotland. I would say to Mr Ruskell that Transport Scotland should have been seeking data on this from loathiam busses and they don't appear to have done that. That would be the starting point for this. I've been calling for a bus fare cap across the country. I've taken two interventions already. I've been calling for a bus fare cap across the country. So has Labour. But it was not even considered. How is that even credible? A cap should be considered straight away. That would help people across the country but particularly those living in poverty and even more particularly those living in poverty in rural areas where bus fares are higher. The cabinet secretary knows I'm in a rush today so... and she knows why. This is a point I've been discussing with my friends in the Poverty Alliance. One of the more interesting ideas in the review is the idea of giving free bus travel to addicts. It doesn't say on what basis. It's another pilot. Would it be for all travel? Or will it just be for certain journeys? How can that work? The cabinet secretary does want to intervene if we can clear that up. So I think everybody recognises access to health is really important to people with addictions as recommended by the experts on the drug deaths task force. I wanted to ask the member what costings have the Conservatives done for a national flat fare scheme. I would take this opportunity to advise members to hand this afternoon. Smashing. I don't have any time in hand. In answer to that, I was actually keen to work with the Government on developing those costings and I still am. If the Government thinks that those with substance issues should get free bus travel and I think we can look at that, then what about unpaid carers such as the unemployed? The review could have promised an expansion of eligibility for the national concessionary travel scheme reimbursement to services operated by community transport operators under a section 19 permit. It lists this on pages 34 and 35 as option 4 of those not being progressed. This will mean that under 22s, over 60s, disabled people will soon, people seeking asylum who do not have local bus services in their area and instead rely on community transport will continue to be disadvantaged. They will have a free bus pass in name only. The NCTS is a fantastic enabler but only if you actually have local services on which to use it and as Scotland's bus network continues to shrink the need for community transport to plug the gaps will only grow. As well as a bus fare cap we have also been calling for free travel for the companions of blind people with concessionary cars to be extended to rail travel. I had a member's debate on this in December 2022 which received support from all parties except for the Lib Dems and the then Minister Jenny Gullruth spoke of her upcoming rail conversation which never happened. She said she would be getting advice from officials on the cost of a national scheme and yes she did mention at that time the fares review goes back a long way but surely if the transport minister was expecting to get advice on costs in December 2022 then we should be further forward than quotes developing the feasibility of a pilot project. In any case at that time charities in the sector such as Sight Scotland were estimating the cost to be around £2 million let's just get on and do this. Another thing we've called for is extending under 22s concessionary travel to ferries for those living on islands. Now the review talks about developing proposals well let's get them developed because developing proposals is not the same thing as saying we will do it which is what you should have said. On rail travel it says we will monitor and evaluate the ScotRail peak fares removal pilot which has been extended until June 2024 to inform medium to longer term rail fares reform. Why not just commit to its permanent just keep it permanently? Sticking with rail I recently called for the introduction of a tap on tap off system on ScotRail there are some trials of this in England I think it would make rail travel a lot easier and ensure that people are always paying the lowest fare a fare fare clearly the technology exists for that and I would urge the cabinet secretary to look at that idea if she isn't already and speaking of technology the review did not look at systems like mobility as a service allowing multimodal and cross operator travel using an app even though we have some pilots of that in Scotland parts of England are way ahead of this than we are and it's frankly getting a bit embarrassing now Nicholas Sturgeon was promising a national smart card naturally enough called the saltire card in 2012 it hasn't happened we do have the smart ticketing advisory board and they should be tasked with powering had with this within months not years cabinet secretary I think it makes a very important point but things have moved on particularly younger people are using their phones on a tap off basis that's exactly the technology that we are developing it might not be a card it will be a national integrated system and I met with the chair only this week and there is significant progress working with all different modes that part of the work that is referenced Grym Simpson? That's encouraging I think if you can use a bank card to tap on to a train service and tap off like the London Underground I'm sure the cabinet secretary's used that then I think that's that will be a way to go it's certainly worth investigating that advisory board should be speaking to companies like Fair Tick and others whose technology is being used to make travel easier and in many cases cheaper Presiding officer I think the review overall is disappointing it offers nothing but vague language there are no firm commitments nothing to lure people back on to public transport if the government wants to cut the amount people use their cars they are making public transport more affordable is the way to go and on that note I have to go Thank you Thank you Mr Simpson and I now call Alex Rowley on behalf of Scottish Labour around six minutes please Mr Rowley Presiding officer in opening this debate for Scottish Labour I would want to welcome the cabinet secretary's statement that she wants to take an inclusive approach to deliver in the reforms of public transport that Scotland so badly needs and I was happy to agree that the publication of the fairer fair review should be debated without motions so that we can have an opportunity to really open up a debate about reviews proposals and what we are going to do to make our transport system work because for too many Scotland's public transport system is broken and it is crucial that we fix it my comments today are intended as constructive criticism to widen the debate that should ultimately give Scottish people access to mobility the country needs if we are to see the social and economic benefits of public transport and the public transport system that works for people and meets the challenges of climate change the fairer fair review has been the answer given to almost every question asked about how we make our public transport system affordable and reliable for everyone since the review was first announced in 2021 we were told time and time again that the work Transport Scotland was doing would offer insight and data needed to deliver the kind of reforms that Scotland's public transport system has been crying out for so I have to say I was disappointed that the product of three years of work is a total of nine action points divided into four short term action points five longer term recommendations with no clear timeline for the delivery in the short term where we need to see action we are committed to little on bus a proposal on flat fares will be developed for consideration and future budgets a policy will be developed on free bus travel for those seeking asylum who have previously announced funding and the feasibility of offering concessionary travel to people with a substance dependency will be explored as local authorities are held to ransom by bus operators who are pulling out of any route not deemed profitable as we have seen recently in West Lothian and without the resources to take meaningful action on controlling bus services I cannot believe that this is the extent of the Scottish Government's radical thinking in my opinion the most exciting proposal from this parliamentary session actually has come from Strathclyde partnership for transport who are now consulting on their plans to franchise bus services taking control of public bus routes and services but SPT have been very clear their plans need investment and co-operation from the Scottish Government and I would urge the cabinet secretary to work with SPT to deliver on these potentially transformative plans indeed I would suggest if we are to address the challenges we must accept that devolution of transport must go well beyond this parliament and government to the regional transport authorities create the public control over buses that is absolutely required to deliver a model shift from private car to public transport cabinet secretary the member makes a very important point and also the role of regional transport partnerships and he is right to identify the recent decision by SPT that is using the Scottish Government the SNP government introduced the 2019 act that enabled franchising and other methods but there is also a challenge because it is not just about stratified passenger transport we know that all the different authorities because there are a number of them across the country are developing their thinking I have referred to Highland already in terms of what they are doing in terms of that municipal ownership model but also if you look at the south west of Scotland's westerns they are currently reporting and developing so I cannot second guess there might be horses for courses in different regional transport areas but do not think that the Scottish commission necessarily support one and not others in and may I add in a very financially restricted area which does limit what we can do in the short term but I understand that the ambition we need to get to is how do we change all of Scotland I absolutely agree I am going to go on to say that but I absolutely agree that the key point I am trying to make is that I do not believe that this Parliament in transport Scotland can actually tackle and solve these problems I think we do have a transport infrastructure out there it is different in different parts of Scotland but the key point I am trying to make is I actually think we need to devolve far greater powers down the way into indeed local authorities but through them into regional transport authorities and we need to be willing to take the steps to legislate where necessary and to put resources in where necessary to support them if we are to address the big transport challenges we must be bold and bold means getting the powers out of here and into local authorities backed with legislation and budgets as they require for when I was in Manchester earlier this month I saw firsthand what power at regional level can achieve by having public control over buses Greater Manchester is made up of 10 local authorities with a population of 2.8 million has a price cap on buses where for under 16s it's capped at £1 for those 16 to 60 it's capped at £2 and then free travel for those over 60 but most importantly franchising has given control, local control and bus routes that just don't disappear I thank the member very much for giving way would he accept that he has met said powers and resources and I just wonder if he can say anything about where the resources would come from I think in London it's about 100 pounds per head the subsidy because of the London for transport I think the London model is not the one that I'm trying to get to what's interesting is that there are now a number of different models developed across England so Manchester I'm talking about Leicester has a different model which I've just started to look at so there's a lot of models out there the other point I would make to Mr Mason is there are short term gains that we can make but some of this I'm certainly speaking about 5, 10 years in advance and it may be an age thing for me but I think back 10, 20 years and think if we had done something then that looked 10 years forward 20 years forward we might not have some of these issues now so I think there's a mix of short term but this Parliament also needs to start to think about the medium term and the longer term and looking at transport that's how we will resolve some of the massive challenges that we have as has been stated time and again there is no point in having a bus pass if there is no bus that you can access to take you where you need to go indeed the same principle applies to ferries which for islanders are lifeline services as buses are for us on the mainland and when it comes to trains I and the travelling public welcome the peak fare suspension pilot which will have saved my rail constituents hundreds of pounds by the time the pilot ends this is hundreds of pounds that shows rail can be an affordable alternative to car helps my constituents with the cost of living crisis and is money that could be spent in our local communities benefit in local economies our public transport system cannot wait for the next review to provide answers we need an end to the multitude of policy papers and never ending government strategies instead we need actions not options there is no magic bullet to one size fits all solution for the transport issues we face but a good start is to recognise that we must devolve powers and budgets and empower regional authorities who are in my view very much up for the challenge thank you Mr Riley and I now call on Beatrice Wishart to round six minutes please Miss Wishart thank you I welcome the long awaited fair fairs review the reviews taken for transport ministers over three years I submitted written parliamentary questions asking when we could expect publication the Scottish Government is late by three months to its own stated deadline of the end of 2023 I am a little disappointed with the final publication of the review though in response to various questions I asked of the Scottish Government to expect answers in the fair fairs review or the islands connectivity plan I do welcome the Scottish Government taking on board my repeated calls and those of Shetland's previous members of the Scottish youth parliament that as ferries are used like buses in the islands the under 22 bus pass provision should be developed and extended to inter-island ferry foot passengers it's a shame that those who are under 22 who called for equality in the national travel concessions will not be able to benefit from the change given the time it has taken to get to this point and so I hope the Scottish Government is able to speed up plans to swiftly enact this provision to ensure the maximum benefit for young islanders I also welcome that the age limit for four concessionary ferry journeys per year on the external service previously for those aged 16 to 18 years will be expanded to include island residents aged up to 22 unfortunately the review is silent on the issue of the scrapped shared cabins policy that has existed for decades on the northern Isles ferry route Serco Northlink ferries changed the policy at the start of Covid-19 and insist that it has no plans for its return this in turn has meant that those with concessionary fares travelling alone and seeking a cabin which provides the only place to lie flat during the overnight crossing have to use two of their concessionary vouchers to secure a whole cabin to themselves or contribute financially to the fare previously only one voucher was required and it's worth noting that people with entitlement to concessionary travel vouchers are more likely to be those who require a cabin for the journey Islanders with entitlement to the concessions who previously used shared cabins now find that as a consequence of that option not being available their travel entitlement is in effect halved I have been repeatedly told that the removal of shared cabins is Serco Northlink ferries decision to make but that there would be consideration under the fair fares review or islands connectivity plan of the impact of this decision on the concessionary vouchers there's no mention of this in the review and it's simply not good enough that a lifeline service can have a long standing provision radically altered in this fashion the impact assessment on those who rely on the lifeline service enabling travel as the cabinet secretary mentioned earlier for people in poverty this is one example where a change in policy would help while I urge Serco Northlink to look again at this policy I ask that the cabinet secretary and Transport Scotland look at the implications this decision has had similarly island residents are impacted by paying seasonal fares and this is an unfair impact on those relying on the service for everyday needs an island resident exception exemption from seasonal fares would help address this the Northern Isles route is a vital day to day lifeline for residents and an essential economic link for businesses its primary purpose is not a profit making cruise ship which is a sentiment often put to me by my constituents before I conclude Scottish Liberal Democrats want to boost Scotland's connectivity and strengthen our climate commitments we need to avoid the west coast experience and invest in a reliable ferry service across all of Scotland's routes we cannot expect our vessels to go on way beyond their original intended lifespan new vessels are an investment for the future viability and prosperity of our islands we're also calling for a change in the current ferry booking system issues that have plagued Northern Isles residents when looking to make advanced sailings bookings are currently not open for January 2025 and this weekend many families will be getting together over Easter to make their winter plans for a sunshine break or to visit family over the festive period so we would like to see an end to cliff edges in the current booking system and instead have rolling bookings open a year in advance and for all rail passengers the exploration of new rail lines especially in areas where public transport links are poor a cut in train fares and new options for two or three day a week season tickets to reflect new ways of working and following the transport for London model introduction of a powerful regional transport partnership to take control of bus services thank you thank you Ms Wishart we will now move to the open debate and I would advise members that there is still indeed some time in hand so plenty of time for interventions should members so wish and with that I call Gordon MacDonald to be followed by Sue Webber before I make my contribution to the debate I should make members aware that prior to my election in 2011 I was employed by Lothian buses for over 20 years part of my responsibility was calculating route profitability across Edinburgh as a scheme claims to Transport Scotland I welcome the Government's fair fairs review and it's aim to support public transport to become affordable and accessible the CPT briefing highlighted that in 2223 there were 301 million bus journeys in Scotland with 146 million of them or nearly half made under the national concessionary travel scheme for over 60s and under 22s in this coming year that support for the bus industry is expected to reach 370 million relating to concessions and the network support grant of just under 50 million pounds the low flat fair referenced in the review is the business model that my previous employer has successfully operated over many decades based on a high volume of passengers on a low flat adult fair currently £2 which allows travel anywhere within Edinburgh and right across Edinburgh carried on 800 vehicles with an average age of just 6 years The member is quite right to identify Lothian buses and he makes the point that it's high volume which also puts the challenge about how do you introduce a flat fair in a system perhaps in a rural or semi rural where you've not got initially that Lothian buses have developed over a long long time because of the good experience of the reliability and frequency of their buses Gordon MacDonald I thank the cabinet secretary for that point and she'll be aware that Lothian buses has recently extended into Lothian county and into west Lothian as well and it may well be that they have taken on board the issue of high low volume and further distances to be travelled However, a low flat fair while welcome will not deliver on its own the model switch that the Government seeks it will also require investment in new buses which are dependable, comfortable well maintained and kept clean with CCTV to keep passengers and drivers safe compared to the car that requires to be parked on ride sites to reduce car congestion in our towns and cities bus priority lanes in order that the bus can compete plus bus tracker to provide some certainty over bus times Without the improvement in vehicles and infrastructure commuters will not move over to public transport no matter how cheap the price happens in and around Edinburgh area the result is a time when bus pattern is declined by 21% in the 10 years leading up to 2019-20 Lothian was carrying an ever increasing number of passengers hitting 119 million passengers in 2019 a 27-year high plus a further 5 million passengers due to its expanded network that already referred to the pandemic hit and last year's Lothian total passengers dropped by 14 million to 110 million passengers despite the drop in passengers only last year Lothian buses added to its long list of transport awards when they won two awards at the bus industry the first for excellence in transport accessibility which recognises improved access to travel for disabled people and for excellence in innovation in technology this highlights what can be achieved when a transport operator is owned by the public and can invest in its service and not be concerned about ever increasing unsustainable shareholder dividends let me finish your point shareholder dividends demanded by a large parent transport group Lothian buses is the largest municipal bus company in the UK with the city of Edinburgh council and the other councils in Lothian sharing the remaining 9% in its last profitable year prior to Covid it paid out 7.7 million in dividends to the local councils Sue Webber I thank the member for giving way but I'm sure the member will agree that the shareholder dividends that are coming from Lothian buses were used before the pandemic to invest in services across Lothian and the city to mention that it's operated on commercial terms by experts in the field not by people that work for the public and local authority The 7.7 million that I just referred to is actually paid to the council and the reinvestment into the network is by Lothian buses itself another area I want to touch upon was the move towards a national integrated ticketing system in my experience bus companies are protective of their market share and are reluctant to share data required to allow ticket income to be properly allocated One example of the difficulties can be seen by examining the performance of one ticket limited which was formed here in Edinburgh in 2001 whose main objective is to increase the use of public transport and achieve model transfer from car to public transport in Sestran area The company brought together all of the bus companies and ScotRail under the umbrella of an integrated ticketing system but it has in my experience been a very marginalised product In 2010 it had a turnover of 1.3 million but its annual accounts in 2017 identified total sales of only 850,000 and it has declined further If a multi-ticket is to be successful then the 20-year operations of one ticket in the Lothian area needs to be closely examined in order that lessons are learned and difficulties not replicated Presiding Officer one mode of travel not mentioned in the review relates to the Edinburgh tram which doesn't qualify for national concession scheme and until last year was born by the Edinburgh taxpayers through their council tax and the cost is now being met by Lothian buses While I understand that tram is considered fixed rail and if it became eligible then there could be calls for other fixed rail operators to ask for a similar subsidy via the concession scheme it is the case that the bus company in Edinburgh is bearing the tram concession cost which is not only distorting the market but also impacting on the bus company profitability Many people are still reluctant to share public transport as a result of Covid We have to reassure the public that post the pandemic that public transport is safe and reliable method of transport if we are to ensure that we reduce the number of car journeys in our towns and cities Presiding Officer I welcome the report from the foundation to move towards a more affordable reliable and accessible public transport system I now call Sue Weber to be followed by Bob Dorris Under the SNP public transport has become unreliable and far too expensive persistent issues such as delays, cancellations and overcrowding are eroding public trust and undermining the effectiveness of services and unless considerable action is taken our public transport network will only continue to decline and while the fair fairs review addresses some of the issues surrounding accessibility and affordability in public transport including the welcome announcements such as the expansion of scrapping the peak rail tickets the review fails to tackle the rising cost of public transport contains only a few new initiatives and has taken far too long to complete and without really addressing underlying issues such as underinvestment in public transit infrastructure regulated barriers to competition the reviews impact may be limited in scope and short lived The Scottish Conservatives want to revitalise Scotland's railways by reopening rail lines and stations to support local growth we want to introduce a Scottish smart travel card which would enable passengers to use all domestic transport anywhere in Scotland with a contactless card or indeed using your phone as many of us do these days we would also implement provisions in the 2019 Transport Act to allow local councils to propose bus services in their areas to address gaps in the provision but today I want to focus on buses in 2022-23 there were 301 million bus journeys in Scotland accounting for 76% of public transport trips Lothian buses which we've heard extensively from Gordon MacDonald operates in Edinburgh and is, I would say, considered the gold standard of buses in our country The fair fares review committed to developing a proposal for the flat fares pilot this is very difficult with all this alliteration we will develop a proposal for bus flat fares pilot with an area-based scheme to provide flat fares for bus travels or reduced fares on zonal integrated travel for consideration in future budgets and that's welcome and we have heard that Lothian buses already uses that flat fare structure across the city of Edinburgh boundary network and with familiar zoned bus fares for services that go wider and beyond the city boundaries and that's the Lothian country brand and the east coast brand as well which cabinet secretary do reach into those suburban and rural areas so I would challenge and say we have the opportunity to look and get information from Lothian buses on how a flat tap that stuff would all work in both areas thank you cabinet secretary this is an open debate I'm open to changing the name I think fix price might be a better way of explaining what we want to try and do but the interesting thing about Lothian country I know from my own constituency experience is actually it's an extension of existing routes especially of the high volume in the town might be subsidising the longer route into west Lothian for example Sue Weber and I know that the Lothian country services did take over a lot from First Bus and McGill's and relying on the express services but don't stop everywhere across the city so it is still specifically there for the west Lothian residents and importantly there is still that simple tap tap cap system in place for a card or your phone whether you're on the Lothian buses or the Lothian country or the Lothian east coast they've got those daily and weekly maximums there that cap the payments you can have so the technology exists already and I think we really need to be just moving ahead more quickly rather than having another pilot and I know there's calls in the city to integrate with the Edinburgh tram but let's not get ahead of ourselves let's just get the buses in the tap tap cap first and I do believe and I'm welcome to hear about the integrated ticketing being multimodal and that is really something of a holy grail for me and I would really look forward to that moving ahead because yes in London you have TFL we all experienced it going from the various modes and I really did welcome Graham Simpson's comment about the tap on tap off because that would mean you would get that best fare no matter where you got on and off public transport but going back on the buses I mean what we do need to be mindful of is that rise in antisocial behaviour that's been seen on the buses and indeed in the transport PQs before this session Liam Kerr from the northeast made mention of some of the tragic events that have happened on with that so we do need to be mindful that there has been a rise in antisocial behaviour on our buses since the free under 22 bus travel scheme has been introduced certainly in Edinburgh we've been aware of that and I know Lothian buses do have a zero tolerance approach to antisocial behaviour and do not hesitate to remove services remove the services from the particular areas for a particular period of time to keep their colleagues and customers safe and 54% of people in our large areas use the bus at least once a month which is quite different from the rural stats that we hear about so it's vital that this bad behaviour of a few youths doesn't impact the majority of people who use public transport responsibly and while there are concerns across the country that free buses are fueling youth crime and disorder I don't believe the solutions to get rid of the free bus pass for those abusing them in this way but I do believe and I know we've debated in the chamber in the past that there needs to be some consequence of that poor behaviour Back in October this year I had a very informative visit to the Lindburn centre in West Lothian which is the site Scotland veterans centre and I'm really pleased that the pilot project to extend the free rail travel for companions of blind persons concessionary travel card holders has been agreed in this Scottish Government's fair fairs review. Everyone I met that day was really vocal about this campaign so I'm delighted and that this has been a great win for them in site Scotland for those who sleep at the wheel you might not be aware that I have been campaigning for a new train station in a small little place in West Lothian called Winshborough this is the vital missing link which would give Winshborough people direct access to national train service station is essential because Winshborough people need a sustainable low-carbon alternative to car and to access the jobs and service that many have in the capital city and Winshborough is set to be home for over 4,000 families due to the large expansion agreed as part of the Edinburgh city region deal and I'm certain that ScotRail would be absolutely delighted with the increase in passengers that this would result in this is why I suspect they've already built in a stop at Winshborough in the timetable for the Edinburgh to Dunblane service Winshborough developments have funded the new junction on the N9 to allow that direct access for cars expanding in the Winshborough village but it is a very extremely sorry I'm getting distracted that's okay I'll carry on yes please carry on but a station is vital if we are to reduce the congestion that our city faces and if we want to hit our net zero objectives we must provide the vital public transport links for this expanding village and I've been working with the Scottish Government the UK Government indeed the Cabinet Secretary and with West Lothian council to make this project a priority Winshborough is the perfect example of revitalling Scotland's railway to support local growth and with that I will close my remarks thank you I now call Bob Dorris to be followed by Richard Leonard Mr Dorris thank you my wife's got a nickname for me she calls me Bob the pedestrian she's other nicknames also because I don't drive but I'm very past remarkable I've tried not because I wanted to but because of the pressure I felt under because driving is seen as a default option however I also because I wanted to support the day-to-day task of ensuring that with a young family we're able to go about our daily lives fortunately for the environment and I suspect for road users and for our bus companies in Scotland driving was certainly not my thing so I use trains and buses on an almost daily basis it's part of my daily routine not through choice but through necessity however it is worth noting that with the income that I earn I do have the option of taxes from time to time not an option many of my constituents have quite frankly the fair fairs review is fundamental for my constituents therefore for some like myself who never wanted to rely on a car and couldn't drive even if I did want to but for others who feel poorly served in terms of public transport services particularly with a bus network in terms of affordability comfort and connectivity but also significantly how we persuade others to make a positive choice to switch to bus or train and indeed support in particular a very fragile bus network in our country and I want to turn to recommendation 6 within the review to develop a business case for a national or a regional integrated ticket and fare structure understand for buses but I wonder why there's a separate recommendation at action 1 for flat fares for buses so I would float two ideas both those things can be achieved at the one time and then an area like Glasgow's outline that could also include trains in doing so I would commend consideration to be given to Glasgow's urban rail and bus network or indeed the greater Glasgow network it must surely be close to such an integrated system in some ways already first Glasgow's got a tap on system capped at £20.40 a week if I wanted to add on other bus companies I could get a Glasgow tripper ticket for £24.60 where commercial companies have reached an agreement however if it opted for a first Glasgow tap on tap off across the entire network that would actually be £26.70 and we forget that SPT's own card still exists for rail for bus and subway indeed so I think it's quite striking that not only are we further ahead in the technology platform both for phone and also card in terms of the advice we're getting in terms of that procurement to make sure that all the operators can be interoperable in terms of how they use that technology but we also have a far more extensive what I would call regional integrated ticketing service what we don't have is yet and what he's given is an example of a regional integrated ticketing service Bob Doris? I appreciate that cabinet secretary I suppose what I'm giving is an example of an almost integrated regional service and we're almost there therefore ideal for a pilot closest to delivering for what we need to deliver on so we took a zone card for four zones up to £32.90 so £20.40, £24.60 £26.70 or £32.90 it's not beyond the realms of possibility to get subway and train and bus in the Glasgow area to do this with a cap provision and an integrated ticketing provision very effectively in a relatively short order now taking away the complexities of those pricing structures flat daily and weekly fares fully integrated and affordable across bus rail and subway I believe would be better to support for my constituents across Glasgow, Maryhill and Springburn as I depend on buses and trains I also think it would make public transport sense for my constituents who don't use the current public transport to do so they could switch on that basis I'm also aware that the bus network operators in Glasgow would cite the extensive nature although my constituents may agree they would cite the extensive nature of the urban rail network as one of the reasons they find it challenging to run what they would consider commercially viable services we've particular issues in my constituency later in the evenings and at weekends therefore drawing in ScotRail and better integration of bus and rail services within urban Glasgow areas makes perfect sense returning home this evening depending when I arrive back at Queen Street Station I could have up to an hour to wait for the Maryhill train line to get my connection back to Somerson I could have a jump on the subway or train to Partick and get a bus to Maryhill perhaps 8 or 90 that ran a more extensive service or indeed train to Annesland of which there are many services out with the Maryhill line if a bus service existed connected to Annesland back to the north of Glasgow across Maryhill something that I know my constituents in Kelvindale and Rutkill for example would very much appreciate I do absolutely accept however that this all costs money and we need a robust business plan with the name of growing paying passenger numbers on buses and on trains when greater frequency of buses in particular at peak times and I was struck by Gordon MacDonald's comments in relation to they have to be clean, they have to be safe they have to be welcoming environments they also have to be family friendly and the times when I'm standing outside the large test going to Maryhill with my 2 year old girl in a buggy hoping that no one else in a pram turns up could then have to race each other to get on the bus we have to decide what a bus network looks like in 5, 10, 15 years time to be truly family friendly yes I find that really interesting I wonder also operators have said to me that we need to give more space on the roads for busses so dedicated bus lanes much more of that and tell me that specifically in Glasgow you get road works you get congestiony traffic and that in itself puts people off Bob Doris I agree with that but a slight note of caution because sometimes that means less bus stops and less bus stops is a poorer service for constituent particular mobility issues and sometimes it can pass by whole stretches of commercial retail units and drop you off at the large supermarket where my bus stop is and you don't use the small local retailer so yes to Mr Riley but with a note of caution added in I was also interested in the role of hospitality was contained within the fairs review and they needed our support of course to do their key partners in relation to all of this but I think that Glasgow is an event city now the hydro in Glasgow for a capacity gig has 14,300 people attending football game at Hamden 51,866 Celtic park over 60,000 Ibrox over 50,000 if we include Celtic connections 115,000 people buying tickets every year for 300 performances now I don't want to add on to the cost of people's night out or day out but if we're truly serious at making Glasgow having a world-class connectivity public transport system a pound on a ticket what could that deliver for Glasgow's public transport system it could have a phenomenal impact and better support than the people that can't afford the taxis to go to these events and don't have cars to get to those events in a very equitable way of dealing with Glasgow's public transport solutions finally in relation to frequency of services I want to see franchising and greater public control but I'm not opposed to a bit of corporate sponsorship as well Freebus Fridays Diagell Iron Brew we have large corporations in Scotland why are we not drawing them in for sponsorship we did see it as an open debate it's just one more idea thank you Mr Doris and I now call Richard Leonard to be followed by Kevin Stewart thank you Deputy Presiding Officer and can I remind members of my trade union affiliations in my voluntary register of interest well the cabinet secretary doesn't have her problems to seek 150 job cuts at Network Rail over the last six months just last week 20 more redundancies at Babcock Rail in Lanarkshire a clear breach of the 2016 collective agreement between ScotRail and the RMT on driver only operations fermenting growing industrial unrest still no definitive ruling on railway station ticket hours with cuts to services, cuts to jobs and downgrades not ruled out and yet, yet in this report before us today that the government's vision in the national transport strategy is of I quote a sustainable, inclusive safe and accessible transport system when we know that each of these cuts each of these backward steps reduce inclusivity put at risk passenger safety narrow accessibility and so we'll set back sustainability in a section in this report under the heading rationale for intervention we are told that both ScotRail trains limited and Caledonian sleep are limited are now under public ownership and controlled by ministers controlled by ministers and that is why I call this afternoon for the cabinet secretary to exercise that control to intervene to stop these safety-critical job cuts to keep these skills in the network to ensure that ScotRail abide by the 2016 collective agreement on electrification and to once and for all call off these ticket office cuts and closures yes I'll give way so I appreciate Richard Leonard taking the tone and considered and constructive approach that was intended by this great without motion he raises serious points but I also want to raise a point about control and he started his contribution talking about network rail does he understand that network rail is reserved to the UK Government and if we're looking at the future for GB rail and if he wants us to have that collaboration that we currently have in a co-operative network rail we need powers in this place and not being used by UK Government for decisions that we don't have control over does he want powers of network rail brought back to this parliament Richard Leonard well look it's a point if you I would expect a nationalist to express but it's a we share this island with a real network the minister is now in control of the Caledonian sleeper service which is cross border so I get that there is a ScotRail alliance which brings together network rail in Scotland and ScotRail as the operating company now part of the public sector so I think I'm going to say a little bit more about the cabinet secretary's views on devolution in a second but I would ask her to look and I would ask other MSPs here to look at the report that we're considering today it's all there on page 24 where it says rail fares are extremely complex with a range of products sometimes as many as 10 fare types for one journey depending on where and when the journey has been made it continues passenger research has shown that confusion over buying the right ticket type is acting as a barrier to encouraging model shift from car to rail so if ever there was a case for simplifying the ticket system and not reintroducing peak time fares if ever there was a case for integrated ticketing which we've been promised since 2012 but which we have once again been told this afternoon to wait again for while the government considers options if ever there was a case for extending booking office hours not contracting them then this is it I also have to ask the cabinet secretary to reflect on her ministerial forward to this report where she writes of the constraints of devolution but in the very next paragraph we are reminded that under the constraints of devolution ScotRail and the Caledonian sleeper are now under public ownership the Clyde and Hebrides ferry routes are in public ownership and there is no reason under the so-called constraints of devolution why other ferry services could not be in public ownership why our bus services could not be under public municipal ownership either and incidentally as we are debating first policy this afternoon compare the fair policy of Lothian buses in the east bus operators in greater Glasgow in the west where private operators like first bus charge over 40% more for a standard adult ticket than municipally owned Lothian transport I think that the cabinet secretary needs to reflect too that in the paragraph which follows that one she writes we provided over £1 billion of additional financial support to ensure our public transport services were protected throughout the duration of the Covid-19 pandemic when she knows full well that these were largely barnic consequentials that these levels of additional spending resulted not from the constraints of devolution but as one of the benefits of devolution now the committee on climate change warned last week that Scotland's climate change goals for 2030 are no longer credible they said that the fairs fair review needed a plan to make public transport more attractive increasing its frequency, reliability and cost competitiveness against car travel next Monday is two years to the day since ScotRail entered public ownership it is also the day that ScotRail fairs will rise by 8.7% if the Scottish Government does not make the no peak fair scheme permanent many passengers face the return of massively increased rail fairs from June and that would only serve to discourage passengers from using rail and push many more of them into cars so for me it is clear and becoming clearer by the day that we cannot resolve the climate crisis by sticking to the existing order we have to transcend the old horizons we need to leave behind the profit motive and the shareholder dividend in our public services we have to put forward the case for change because massive corporations have too much power over the fate of our communities and our planet this is not a time to be backward it's a time to go forward it's a time to be bold thank you and I call Kevin Stewart to be followed by Mark Ruskell thank you very much and before looking to the future of public transport in Scotland we must recognise where we are and how we got here Scotland doesn't have a publicly owned public transport system we did have into the Tories at Westminster and the Labour Party and regional councils across Scotland conspired to privatise our buses and then the Tories did exactly the same with our railways the Scottish Government has taken the bold step to return ScotRail and the Caledonian Sleeper back into public ownership I'll give way to Mr Rowley I'll look at Rowley I'm confused because I remember in 5 the regional council were certainly opposed to the buses being privatised I'm just confused by you saying that it certainly didn't happen in 5 Kevin Stewart I'm not afraid with every aspect but I know that there was not enough done by Labour controlled regional councils to stop that privatisation I've come to Lothian in a second because they did get it right as I was saying it's great that the Scottish Government have brought ScotRail and Caledonian Sleeper back into public ownership although we still have private services still running on our tracks privatisation has been a great success in my opinion and does show a route forward Buses are a different matter well, in a little while Buses is a different matter however most bus routes in Scotland are run by private companies with subsidies from Government and local councils Lothian, buses here in Edinburgh are of course the noticeable exception and have remained in public hands and everyone here who uses Lothian buses on a regular basis knows that they are a fine example of what can be achieved when public transport is in public hands and I wish the same had happened in Grampian as happened here in Lothian and while I firmly support all our public transport being in public hands we must accept the fiscal position that we in Scotland find ourselves in the on-going cuts to public services and infrastructure by the UK Government has seen billions cut from Scotland's block grant and while the Tory Government continues its death spiral of slashing public spending cutting taxes for the wealthy and the Labour Party promising five more years of the same we must work with what we have or we must seek the path to independence the fair's review offers a set of recommendations and actions to achieve the best for Scotland's public transport in these difficult times Scotland's public transport is and will be key to economic development and a core future aim must be to provide an affordable public transport service that unlocks economic growth by connecting workers with jobs on time and for a reasonable fair alongside this our public transport needs to facilitate customers getting into our time centres to access retail leisure and recreational opportunities and marrying up the needs of our time centres with the needs of business and customers will be key to stopping the decline in our time centres caused by online shopping and working from home I'll give way to the cabinet secretary I think the changing experience of customers is really important I think looking at the growth in weekend public transport use is really important it lends itself to that event our leisure experience and obviously in Glasgow there was a very strong campaign to encourage people not to come in by car for their Christmas events but to travel by public transport so does he identify that actually looking at the changing nature of public transport and the changing use will be important in planning yes by operators but also in incentivising and in looking at the ticketing offers that we want to develop I agree completely and utterly with the cabinet secretary that what happened in Aberdeen of late was some controversy about a bus gate in Market Street which has actually helped the flow of public transport recognising the controversy and trying to get more folk on to buses both first and Aberdeen waved first Aberdeen and stagecoach in Aberdeen waved fares at the weekend to try and encourage more folk public transport with some success Public transport is key to achieving our aims and to start we need to build on the exceptional success of the free bus pass which are the most generous schemes of their kind in these islands was just under half the population already being able to access free bus travel while reducing inequality by maintaining the free bus pass for young folk older people and disabled people we need to ensure that public transport is the default option for all and a core part of this will be a single easy to understand fare for going from A to B and an integrated ticketing system and zonal fares will be important in achieving this for longer journeys our railways will be the backbone to underpinning our success and again integrated ticketing and fares will be key to encouraging greater use of rail for all types of journeys and ensuring that when anyone in Scotland decides to make a longer trip getting the train is their first thought I have to say that the abolition of peak fares pilot has done much to get people back on to our railways and that the analysis that the Government is going to undertake will show that that is something that will be kept and also in terms of our railways part of the success has been the reopening of stations that used to serve communities and we in Scotland can be proud of our recent success in reopening railway stations such as the one at Kentour with Levenmouth to come very shortly and I for one am very supportive of the campaign for North East Rail which aims to reconnect Fraserborough and Peterhead to Aberdeen by railway and of course there are also advantages in terms of opening railways to increase free opportunities but that's probably for a different debate Presiding Officer Finally, I would say let's make public transport our go-to option by building a system that's fit not only for today but also for tomorrow Thank you I would say to colleagues at this point that we've probably eaten up quite a lot of the time that we had in hand I call Mark Ruskell to be followed by Claire Baker Thanks very much I thank Cabinet Secretary for bringing forward a debate for some members it has changed the tone for others, unfortunately they're back to their default tone but I think the launch of the fair fairs review has been important because it's now allowing this wider conversation to begin and of course it has been a priority both for SNP ministers and Scottish Greens to see this fair fair's review to completion Last week's UK Climate Change Committee report was of course a wake-up call for all of us to make public transport accounting for almost a quarter of Scotland's carbon emissions and it's a key area where we need to make that really lasting systemic change we urgently need to shift folks from cars to public transport but of course people vote with their feet and they'll only make that shift if the public transport offer is accessible affordable and reliable so we absolutely need cheap affairs and integrated ticketing is key to that wider concessionary schemes on bus enabling two and a half million people to travel for free and of course free bus travel is an absolute lifeline for people facing inequality so I really welcome the recommitment to expand the scheme on bus for people seeking asylum and for those now suffering from drug dependency and the new pilot project to extend free travel on ScotRail for companions of people who hold the blind persons and I really look forward to updates on all of this work when it's ready but of course there's much more we can do beyond the concessionary scheme to ensure that public transport is affordable for all so I really welcome the flat fare trial and I do think that those councils that span both the rural and urban areas and are working really hard to restore bus services with communities that are well placed to trial the flat fare as part of a package to really reboot local bus services now the off people day pilot on ScotRail will also give us the evidence of how simplifying fares on the railways has worked both in terms of fare box income and also passenger numbers but the next step of course is to join up our fragmented public transport network so I'm very pleased to see a commitment to a national integrated ticketing system that is so hard and fair structure it is so obvious that having a card or an app that joins everything up makes sense I mean they manage it in Shetland Glasgow offered it during COP26 so we can surely get that approach rolled out everywhere else in time and having mentioned Shetland can I welcome the commitment to extend not just the national concessionary ferry scheme to under 22s but now to move beyond that commitment and offer free fares to under 22s on inter-island ferries that's going to be really liberating for young people who live in our islands I also note that road equivalent tariff will continue but I welcome the intention to strike a better balance that supports island residents first and foremost in the design of that scheme now many members have reflected on the need to fix the broken models that we have that have left communities without decent bus services for too long rural bus routes being vulnerable to the boom and bus cycle deregulation and privatisation in the past month alone we've seen lifeline routes like the C60 between Killin and Calender that I've already mentioned earlier on today or the X7 in Cast of Garry our communities really deserve better here and with SPT recently deciding to push forward a franchising I think the future is looking brighter public and community ownership can bring genuine benefits to bus services whether you're in Glasgow or rural Persia but now is the time to start accelerating progress now undoubtedly we want to see radical improvements we need radical improvements to public transport but if we're serious about making this a reality then we really need to redirect some of the capital away from carbon intensive roads into the infrastructure we need for sustainable transport instead of doubling down on new road building projects we need to invest in that infrastructure that will supercharge our public transport across Scotland and demand management measures and road user charging models could be used to fund public transport improvements alongside reducing our transport emissions and I would ask members to imagine what the impact of the congestion charge would have been in Edinburgh 20 years on from that debate the kind of investment we would have been able to do in our public transport infrastructure in the city if there's time in hand I would be I'd like to there's a little time in hand just very briefly do you accept that the bus partnership fund and Putin in place the bus lanes etc has been really crucial and as getting being able to move and get buses moving fast is just as important as fares absolutely that's a critical example of the infrastructure that we need and of course Mr Ali will recognise that Scottish Government this year is under incredible pressure with its capital budgets in relation to that but that's exactly the kind of infrastructure that we need more investment in Edinburgh and if we'd had that congestion charge 20 years ago perhaps we wouldn't have been able to see much more of that investment so it is good to see in the fair fares review that the cost of motoring relative to the cost of public transport must be addressed I don't think that many members have really focused on that but that work really must continue at pace so Presiding Officer in conclusion I am proud of what the SNP Government has already achieved the free bus travel for all young people under 22 across the whole of Scotland with more than 100 million journeys to date new funding and powers for local authorities to wrestle back powers from private companies to franchise and run their own services for people and not for profit and of course the record investment in active travel infrastructure transforming our towns and cities into safer and more accessible places to walk, wheel, cycle these all need to be celebrated but of course we have to go further and we have to go faster and I hope that the fair fares review can be that springboard that we need to do just that and I really look forward to working alongside Cabinet Secretary for Transport to make this a reality Thank you and I call Claire Baker to be followed by John Mason Thank you Presiding Officer I do welcome the publication of the review after it being the answer to many portfolio questions we now have the document and that's to be welcome but a degree of this appointment has already been expressed in this afternoon for the past two decades the cost of public transport in the UK has increased not just relative to driving but above inflation prior to the pandemic increasing running costs had seen a fall in users and the impact of this is still being seen the fair fares review report includes a recommendation to rebalance the cost of travel highlighting the commitment to making sustainable travel more attractive to achieve this it states the cost of motoring relative to public transport needs to be addressed I think we do need to be careful here public transport costs have risen quicker than driving but for many people public transport is not an option and we need to be considerate on the realities of car usage if we want to make motoring if we think about motoring cost prohibitive while we need to see fewer people using private cars and there are interventions that would make car use more expensive the focus needs to be on making public transport more affordable and reducing the cost of travel we know that some people are currently choosing to drive as it's a cheaper option and in a cost of living crisis we should be doing what we can to reduce household costs the climate aims of reducing car use and encouraging model shift have to be seen alongside the social aims of improving the accessibility and affordability of public transport options the government's commitment to the review made clear the landscape of declining car travel costs versus increasing public transport costs was exacerbating the impact of those living in poverty who are often in low car ownership communities and the lead in myth rail link has already been mentioned one of the key drivers for delivery of that rail link was an area in Scotland that had very low car ownership and high levels of poverty and I'm hopeful that the lead in myth rail link will make a significant difference to that community behind the review is a need for equality and making public transport systems affordable for all and we are not just seeing the progress to reform that would result in this and I agree with Mark Ruskell that we need to see more pace for those on lower incomes public services like transport are vital to their daily lives and accessing employment, education healthcare and leisure activities but too often rising costs and poor links can put this at risk and a time of increasing financial pressures delivering reliable and affordable public transport is a way that government can support households and help address the stubborn rates of poverty that continue in Scotland conversely raising transport fares can put an acceptable strain on those who are already struggling to afford public transport when it comes to addressing rising costs the poverty alliance has welcomed the pilot on flat fare ticketing but criticised the lack of urgent action saying the new commitments in this area are limited particularly for those on low incomes the alliance also highlights that many of the areas raised by the citizens panel as a priority have been emitted or not progressed due to cost and it would be helpful to see some of the financial reasoning behind the decisions and I know the cabinet secretary in her opening statement talked about the immediate financial pressures that we are facing but I think we do need to look for creative solutions for those on low incomes cost is the key concern when it comes to public transport and they need to see more action to improve access and affordability the report indicates that in the medium to long term there will be consideration of support for those experiencing financial poverty but we need to see that work prioritised when it comes to rail travel the report highlights the complexity of rail fares the lack of standardisation in terms of restrictions available fare types or the fares themselves there is no standard pence per mile or kilometre measurement used however the Scottish Government will use that measure when they compare ticket prices to the rest of the UK when it comes to cost per mile for different journeys within Scotland there are some variation and for many of those in Fife travelling from Dunfermline, from Brent Island are paying more per mile than those making journeys from Glasgow, Falkirk or Perth to Edinburgh the original basis for the regulated fare structure is opaque ScotRail inherited the fares that were in place on privatisation of British rail in 1996 and since then has applied an annual increase formula but no one seems to know how the fares were originally set one of the medium to long term recommendations in the report includes the development of proposals for a new fare to encourage increase in rail market share but this needs to look at how the fares are set as well as how they can change to reflect the different needs of passengers looking at the pilot removal of peak rail fares which has been a welcome step in reducing cost per passengers it has been under way for almost six months now it is frustrating that we have not been provided with any detail about the on-going evaluation of how it is working anecdotally we have seen that the pilot has been successful in getting more people into trains but I am keen to find out whether this cohort are the new or are the returning passengers and how has it impacted on those on lower incomes for commuters in Fife there continues to be services where capacity is not able to match demand a problem exacerbated by reduced numbers of carriages or cancellations I know that as part of the pilot ScotRail website provides information on where the busiest services are so that passengers can try to avoid them but this list of busiest services includes every service that goes through Fife to Edinburgh in the morning peak period with many services full by the time they reach in the key thing these are passengers who have not been able to get on trains and many more regularly are paying to stand these are the kind of service issues in addition to cancellations and delays that need to be addressed to ensure that rail is an attractive travel option I will close by briefly touching on active travel getting people on to public transport means providing a reliable affordable service this also requires improvements to accessibility and linkages with active travel part of encouraging people to choose the bus or train over a private car relies on when getting to bus stops or train stations easily and safely the results of a survey published by SuchTrans this week found the majority of people in urban areas are supportive of shifting investment from road building to fund active travel and public transport the survey also found that people want the choice to walk, cycle and use public transport more we need to make it easier for them to do that and this will achieve the health, environmental and economic benefits we all want to see thank you John Mason, the final speaker in the open debate thank you very much I am pleased to take part in this debate not least because I am enthusiastic about travelling and I am enthusiastic about public transport especially our railways however I am happy to state that I do have a car as well when I go camping there is no way I can carry my tent and other equipment on the bus or the train so I do take the car to start with one point I am in complete agreement with as it says in the forward to the report we should support people to encourage that shift to use their car less and use public transport more and I do accept that for someone to give up their car all together can be a big step but if we all reduced our car usage and reduced our use of public transport that in itself would make a big difference to both road congestion and would help improve our health and as a bonus you get more time for reading or working on the train or the bus thank you John Mason for taking the intervention I was thinking while we were sitting here about car clubs does he feel that that could be rolled out more to try and encourage people to give up their cars John Mason I didn't have that in my speech but I am enthusiastic about car clubs I have a enterprise car club based in my constituency and I think especially is that the high I've forgotten the name of the title the high low or something like that in the high trans in Vernes where you can go and on the one app you get the train the bus, the taxi, walking and the car club as well which I think is excellent however clearly cost is a factor here once we actually have a car and have paid for the insurance and the MOT football or even Parliament is relatively low because it's just the petrol and maybe the parking well to make to take a family of four on the train can be expensive even with off-peak fares and special offers I suspect we will never get the marginal cost of one trip on public transport down to the marginal cost of that trip by car unless of course the bus is free because if you have a bus pass then it is and I have to declare at this point that I do this reminds us that we need both a carrot and a stick approach largely in Scotland we have some control over the carrots but the stick of increasing the cost of using a car falls to Westminster Transform Scotland make the valid point in their briefing that fuel duty rates have not risen enough in recent years and I do not think we have yet cracked the nut as to how electric cars are to pay their fair share of road costs if it is not through fuel duty as a report points out much of our public transport is not expensive compared to other parts of the UK the Ullipool storm away route on the ferry takes about two and three quarter hours and the passenger return is 22 pounds Penzance to Silly takes a similar time and the passenger return is 186 pounds and when we are talking about fair fares we have to ask fair for whom certainly yes fair to the passenger but what about the taxpayer is it fair that a taxpayer with no train station nearby pays some £300 per year for our railway system and that is for each member of their family as I said I personally am enthusiastic about public transport and I do think we should have higher taxes to support public transport but we still need to be realistic as to how much we can afford and where we draw the line we currently have the suspension of peak time train fares and I look forward to learning the results of this pilot scheme as others have said I see some evidence of increased passenger numbers in the mornings however I do fear that income from fares will have suffered and I do wonder if this is sustainable moving on to consider buses there are also cost factors here Strathclyde partnership for transport is proposing a franchise system with an annual cost of some 45 to 85 million pounds that is perhaps 20 to 40 pounds of population in Strathclyde each year which is a lot less than London where I think the subsidy is 100 pounds per resident per year some have suggested that public ownership of buses is the answer but that would still come at a cost and I suspect would not satisfy everyone when I was younger the buses were run by the corporation but there were still complaints that too many buses went to Castle Milk and not enough buses came to Rutherglen that would happen again sticking to Glasgow I do think we have an excellent train service but that depends on exactly where you live and where you want to go we have 11 rail stations on two separate lines in my constituency which is an area roughly 7 miles long by 3 miles wide I've recently been attending Gartnavel hospital a bit and it has a tremendous rail service right on the door to Highland station with trains going to many many different stations from there but the car park is still jammed full of vehicles perhaps because some people either have to or choose to use their car as the train service has been electrified and improved from somewhere like Carmile in my constituency the bus service cannot compete on trips to the city centre and it has subsequently declined yet not everyone wants to go to the city centre buses stop more frequently and closer to destinations like local shops, the GP, the dentist and the schools so there's no question that we need both rail and bus in Glasgow public transport is complex I do not believe there is one simple answer to simplify the system and make it easier to use that would be a big step forward Bob Dorris gave a lot of the complicated systems you can get in Strathclyde and just another couple of examples in Strathclyde you can get a concession ticket on the trains but this is not available at the ticket machines or on the ScotRail app if we're continuing with that I think it needs to be better integrated and secondly I have a constituent who's fanatical about split ticketing and this is the ability to split a journey but you actually stay on the one train now I said to him I was not going to raise this today but I decided I would as an example I was looking at a return ticket from Garrahill, my station to Malleg the ScotRail app tells me this is £50.15 for a day return on Monday but if I split the ticket at Queen Street it is £32.30 plus £2.60 which comes to £34.90 as train line provides that is 43% more if you don't know how to split your ticket given that money is tight I believe we do need to target support towards those most in need and the report acknowledges existing systems are targeted at specific groups based on age and health rather than on low income so one obvious option might be to raise the age for the older persons national concessionary travel scheme from 60 to 66 to match the pension age however I fear that might not be popular 60 to 65 year olds are good voters and would any political party dare to upset them in the next year but in closing we need to be realistic about finances which good things can we afford to do and which good things can we not afford to do this week both the finance committee and the spice breakfast briefing were on the Scottish fiscal commission report fiscal sustainability perspectives climate change which I would say overlaps with the topic of today's debate we cannot afford to do all we would like to do so it is important that we choose the right priorities and spend our money where we have maximum impact thank you and we move to winding up speeches and I call on Pauline McNeill up to six minutes please I welcome the debate without motion I think it's made for a higher quality debate I begin by saying I think there must be some acknowledgement that there has been long term under investment in public transport in Scotland for being honest we have one underground system in Glasgow it still shuts at 6pm on a Sunday and we have been campaigning for an extension for 15 years we have one tram system we have had notable expansions over the years such as border rail which shows how popular rail has become even though this Parliament only passed border rail on the vote of one person so you see the importance of rail to the people of Scotland but you don't need an expensive consultation process to work out what the public want is affordable fares they want reliable services whether it's buses or trains and we need to beat people's aspirations I think we're all clear about that on the peak fares issue having seen the presentation from Scotland rail at the time it seemed to be the coincidence of the pandemic and the fact of public ownership that has perhaps brought about a sensible policy decision to look at this pilot not removing peak fares and I wondered if the cabinet secretary has seen the data on it or is she still waiting to see it I just thought I would ask because I think we're all desperate to see whether or not the revenue streams have remained the same and justifying a continuation of that because can we really go back to the days of nearly 30 pounds a day to travel between Glasgow and Edinburgh for working people or even people want to come to the city is really something I don't want us to go back to I think it's important to say that the electrifying rail was very important for zero carbon but it also hasn't changed the service for many communities where I live you can't get a train on a Sunday before 11.15 Sunday service is quite an important thing that we haven't discussed I have raised this with Scotland and with the RMT of which I declare I'm a member of that group Sunday service is critical to public services and it's critical to net zero a difficult issue but I think it's something that has to be addressed it's got to be a Sunday service and Sundays cannot be excluded from that the public like rail it's accountable mostly and more so now it's timetabled, it's quicker in most cases and I support keeping the garden ScotRail services as Richard Leonard spoke to earlier so I actually launched a member's bill in 2019 on young people's concessionary affairs because I think it was unfair when you turned 16 you automatically doubled the fares and at the last minute my bill was blocked because of the powers that the Parliament didn't have but now it has so it's one thing I'd like to put on the table but I'm not arguing that the answer to policy is just to expand lots of concessionary affairs but it is a group I think that it's worth looking at integrated ticketing that everyone's talked about I'm really unclear about what's preventing this from happening do we need to buy some technology we don't already have is it a governance issue but it's quite clear we're all agreed that we are 20 years behind where we ought to be on that particular point yes I would yet having spoken to the chair of the national smart ticketing board just this week part of our issues we are ahead on many different aspects of this but we are behind for example on barcodes which is when some of the interoperability is we do have regional integrated ticketing but what we need to get is multimodal and national which is exactly the work that they have been tasked with because it's about procurement of a common standard that everybody can use Pauline McNeill that's really helpful thank you Scottish Labour has pushed for and supports SPT's consultation on a bus franchise it's not a done deal and we know that it's only the start of a journey working with 12 local authorities we need to tackle the governance issues involved in that but I would say it's not the answer in itself that's the important point for me we need a revolution in the service I think Gordon McNeill spoke to this to some degree it's got to be accountable in the way that the train service is when the bus doesn't turn up you need to be able to know why it didn't turn up and you need to know that the next time it will turn up we haven't really cracked that at all there's a frequency in service and if they miss one, there is one coming along it strikes me that hospital services is an area of priority that we should maybe we have actually legislated for this but it's clear to me that in any franchising hospital services should be a high priority I don't see why we can't offer this I do not believe that much as I did a lot of what John Mason said I don't think that the stick is the answer I think the answer is that buses cannot be seen as a last resort they must be seen as a choice people need to choose because it suits their lifestyle there's a lot more we can do to encourage people I wanted to say a bit about the Clyde metro I've been pursuing this for some time it's the big transport ambition for Glasgow city region I've had various questions, various meetings it's clear to me that there's no financial commitment to the project I don't know what type of project it is I'm really concerned that the money that was allocated for the rail link to Glasgow airport has been reallocated and now we're the only city of our size in the whole of Europe that doesn't have a rail link serving west central Scotland to give passengers a choice to use light rail albeit to the airport I don't think that it's a sustainable argument for Glasgow to be left behind in this way I think that we need to recognise the diversity of needs across Scotland there are shift workers hospitality workers who work after 12am and 1am in the morning and they need the reliability of the service some people need to drive home as well because of that and the cross-carta campaign helped to retain the net bus service we have a shortage of bus drivers an issue that's not been mentioned that we need to address in my closing remarks I did want to respond to Bob Doris to pedestrian because I do think that the taxi service actually should be regarded as part of the public transport system I mean how many people have come off a train where the bus leaves the station and you need to be somewhere you need to be able to rely on the bus and the choice of a taxi if you can afford it Presiding Officer I think that there's a lot we agree on we need the technology we need ease of access of public transport we need mixed modes of transport we need to give people choice would you make the right decisions Thank you I welcome this debate that gives us an opportunity to discuss a key area of public policy in Scotland and I even promise to keep my contribution positive for the most part Public transport is an area of concern to many of our communities throughout Scotland but the challenges are many and rising costs in all areas of transport cause significant challenges for both national and local government there's also a stark divide between rural and urban transport networks their needs, focus, challenges and delivery and many would argue that we need not one but two reviews one for urban and one for rural issues an issue born out by the lack of mention in this document of rural communities and the difference between them and urban networks in fact there are only two mentions of the word rural in the whole document one of the excellent example of in Murray a demand responsive bus network and the second in a small bullet point on page 23 that simply says there should be a sustainable and available network of buses across the country including rural areas but no indication of how this should be achieved and no mention of the particular challenges of our rural community so I welcome the cabinet secretary's mention of rural in her opening remarks I will give way to Mark Mark Ruskell I wonder if he would agree with me then that the flat fares pilot would make sense to be rolled out in a rural area as well as perhaps learning from the experience of that within Edinburgh as well I will just about to cover that point because we do welcome parts in this long awaited review and it is long awaited and it's three years Alec Riley mentioned and we welcome expansion of the trial of the scrapping of peak rail fares we're also welcome the development of the proposal for a bus flat fares pilot and would suggest to the Scottish Government that there should be at least two pilots one rural and one urban so we can get a sense of the viability in both settings and the impact on bus usage the report also states that a number of local authorities have withdrawn their local concessionary travel schemes in recent years due to affordability concerns further exacerbating geographical anomalies in access to schemes across Scotland there will be a postcode lottery and I welcome the Government's commitment to ensuring schemes are Scotland-wide however they should take full account of rural communities and local travel patterns and must work hand in hand with local councils and COSDA colleagues across the chamber have made some interesting contributions the cabinet secretary mentioned that help for those most in need but most of the options in the report that are not being progressed maybe would have done that so that's slightly disappointing Graham Simpson he mentioned that there's a desire for a 20% reduction in car journeys and the only way to do that is making public transport more affordable and there's nothing concrete in this review it seems to be a lot of pilots but nothing actually in concrete and technology is something that I will speak about later Alec Rowley he was also disappointed about the review and lack of actions and spoke about a 5-year and 10-year plan and I agree with that resources are not there to make some radical changes overnight but as a Parliament we should be able to provide the direction of travel that we need Gordon MacDonald told us how he used to work for Lothian buses and from his contribution today I actually thought he still worked for them he's a glowing report for Lothian buses Sue Webber described easy to understand fair structure on Lothian buses as well and I think that's key I often take the bus in Aberdeen but I have no idea how much it's going to cost me until I see my bank statement Sue also took the opportunity to call again for a new station at Winchborough Bob Doris described the whole host of tickets that could be purchased and surely we can make it easier for people to do something about this he also called for better integration between trains and buses and for me that just seems like common sense Richard Leonard mentioned complex train ticketing and I agree it's often cheaper to buy a return ticket even though you're not going to use the return leg then buy a single and a lot of people don't realise that and split tickets as well as often cheaper as mentioned by John Mason that doesn't seem quite right he also mentioned the sleeper service that's something that doesn't really appear too much in this report and if we're looking at making fairs cheaper maybe that should be more than there about the sleeper service because I have a confession to make I'm a regular bus user I think what the biggest improvement that has been to get me on the bus and that's been increased technology it has been contactless payments and also the apps to see bus time information I don't need to download a timetable anymore or get to a bus stop and guess when the next bus is coming seeing where the bus is on my phone has really changed my habits but I still think there's more we can do in the area of technology it still seems to be a lottery I'm working out how much a journey will cost the app should tell you the cost when you plan your journey and there also needs to be better joined up fairs between different modes of transport we've heard that from a lot of people today and the government has a role to play in that area and it was good to hear the cabinet secretary mention that in conclusion I think we can all agree we need a much more joined up public transport system with a fairer system of fairs I remain concerned that this review does not take enough account of rural issues and I hope that the government will acknowledge that there is a gap in the report and will work to remedy that I think we all agree that we need to get more people using public transport and for that to happen we need to get the basics right all modes of transport need to be clean, safe, affordable and fast thank you thank you very much Mr Lumsden and I call on the cabinet secretary to wind up up to nine minutes please thank you Mr President I thank members from across the chamber for their mostly thoughtful and constructive contributions to a debate on a subject that is truly fundamental to the everyday lives of people across the country and I think we have benefited from that more open debate as we've heard public transport system faces a number of challenges at this time, recovering passenger numbers in the wake of the pandemic managing rising costs in the face of inflation and significant financial constraints affecting government funders who make up the shortfall between the full costs of providing services and the revenue raised by fairs delivering reliable, affordable, accessible transport as we've heard a first choice for travel so we quite rightly demand and expect a lot of our public transport system because it is integral to getting us to where we want to get to and enabling our communities to thrive and I firmly do see public transport as key to helping tackle poverty unlocking opportunities to connect people to jobs, better paid jobs and education and I also acknowledge in terms of rural areas it could have one of the biggest impacts in tackling rural poverty the future of public transport and our public transport system is also key as we've heard to delivering our net zero ambitions by giving people a sustainable alternative to the private car for everyday journeys and I will be frank current financial constraints are hampering immediate more radical and bold initiatives but I really do want to work across the chamber to shape the public system we all want and the country needs and if we take those steps now as we've heard from Alex Rowley we can deliver something that's more fundamental in that approach and I do want to try and address as many of the contributions as I can that we've heard Graham Simpson asked to be involved in the costings for the flat fare pilot I'd be interested in talking to him on that personal point about community transport but it does require legislation in relation to section 19 and although that can be tackled I wouldn't say that's happening immediately because of other legislative constraints the budget bill for what he asked for would run into hundreds of millions of pounds which are not immediately available but it doesn't mean that we can't think about what it is and plan now for what we need I thought in a very considered speech Alex Rowley touched on a key issue of governance structures and indeed that's one of the recommendations is a review of governance structures it had started pre-pandemic but we do need to think very seriously what does that mean does that mean more devolution or powers to regional transport partnerships but how would councils feel about that there are varying types of relationships dare I say between councils and regional transport partnerships is that solution but let's have that as part of the reviews to look at those issues Beatrice Wishart was perhaps a bit grudging in her support for the under 22s inter-island issue and we just have to work at the mechanics of when and how we do that and I certainly when I sat on the next zero energy and transport committee that was a strong call that we heard from young people and others as well she's constantly raised with me the issues about northlink and shared cabins so that it was always a complex matter centred on the appropriateness of sharing with strangers and risk elements in that Gordon MacDonald gave a very informed and expert analysis of not only the very positive aspects of Lothian buses but some of the challenges as well it's quite right to say we also need investment in vehicles infrastructure and as we've heard also technology and he did say and this is a challenge private bus operators but they are challenges in terms of whether they will share the data that we would need to get to some of that ticketing solutions that we might want on a more national basis Sue Webber also talked about the need for regional and integrated ticketing which I think everybody was touching on and I hope I've explained we're probably further on that journey than people realise but we don't have that simplification and that intermodal connectivity that we all need but we do have experts working with us on that through the national smart ticketing advisory board Bob Doris put in a pitch for Glasgow to be a pilot for the fixed price fixed fare pilot saying that Glasgow is and he's quite right almost fully integrated but there's more to be done I think his point about charging a pound on events at the culture minister or the culture sector might want first dibs on that but he makes an important point about getting people to events but they are mostly evening and weekend and that goes back to the point I think that Pauline McNeill made about Sundays and weekends I think more generally in terms of services I do think that his points about family friendly spaces was a very important point and the free fare Friday challenge is out there and I'm sure he's heard Kevin Stewart reminded us that he's quite right about the fiscal pressures that we are facing and in terms of our consequentials of public spending if public spending is at the levels it is on a UK basis and continues in that direction regardless of governments that will constrain what we might be able to do in the future and we should have acknowledgement of that he also referenced Aberdeen they've seen reductions in 25% in journey times with their bus lanes and I think we all had the briefing from First Bus he mentioned them waving fares at the beginning of the bus lanes at the weekends and they've just announced that they're freezing fares as well so it's the commercial models that can work that we need to be looking at Mark Russell put in a bid for a rural and city analysis on the fixed price flat fare pilot and I do think we need to think about how we get the best information that can help to shape future issues Claire Baker I think got to a fundamental point of this which is about poverty and how we tackle poverty and that also might mean about how we target the resources that we have because clearly there are many people even with the peak fare removal that can't afford the train prices that are there just now so therefore should subsidy be there or should subsidy for example be in bus very briefly because I'm just on that point there's a lot of options in here that aren't being taken forward that would actually help that that example that you were talking about so why are those not being looked at and being costed so some of them are obviously financial some of them that would require legislation which means we can't we're not necessarily doing them they would do them immediately but I do think there's an issue about prioritisation I also think there's a challenge in the country just about that has our concessionary travel scheme which is very generous it's free it's one of the few countries that have it as free we are maintaining that but if we load more on to that system that means that we're not necessarily being in a position that we can grow income from fare paying if we're spending all our money on that concessionary travel as a subsidy so therefore we have to grow income to help and that's where the flat fare may have an opportunity to give us direction I also want to mention and I think Pauline McNeill and John Mason talked about yes a simplified system they also reference the importance about travel to health care and I can assure members that I actually only recently met with the Cabinet Secretary for Health because I want as the Cabinet Secretary for Transport to pursue this issue more so Presiding Officer in my closing remarks on this there's more to be said on this we all know as constituency MSPs public transport when it doesn't work will come to us and how important it is but we also have a responsibility to make it important in this parliament in this place not in a one-off debate but on a continuous basis Presiding Officer we all have a stake in this we all want to see and adapt to the challenges and changes that we see that's why the Scottish Government is taking action now to ensure a sustainable and viable public transport system with considerable investment that is better integrated more accessible available and affordable for all so I do look forward to working with members across the chamber and with stakeholders and delivery partners across the sector to realise this vision thank you for your contributions and I hope and trust that conversation will continue thank you that concludes the debate on the future transport the fair fairs review and it's now time to move on to the next item of business which is consideration of parliamentary bureau motion 12702 on committee membership and I asked George Adam on behalf of the parliamentary bureau to move the motion thank you Presiding Officer and moved thank you minister the question on this motion will be put at decision time and there's one question to be put as a result of today's business and the question is that motion 12702 in the name of George Adam on behalf of the parliamentary bureau on committee membership be agreed are we all agreed the motion is therefore agreed and that concludes decision time and I close this meeting