 I will call a public works meeting to order. Everyone, start out with a roll call. It's the log meal, present. All the person perilla, and the whole person cells are is excused. So we'll start with a pledge of allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all. All righty, and we'll start out with the introduction of committee members and staff. I'll start out myself. I am Dean Decker, all the person from the sixth district and chair and chairperson. Hi everybody, my name's Marcus Sovalio. I'm all the person from the fifth district. Gratia Bebeva, district seven and vice chair of the committee. Ryan Sorensen, mayor. Buenos. I'm Mary Routen. I live on cell 21st Street, district resident. Barb Lindsay, the middle cell 21st Street. My name is Lindsay, cell 31st Street. Kevin Jolt, engineering. I'm Jessica Haas, finance. Rick Nye, DPW, water vehicle. Kerry and city administrator. Jason Blasio, streets and sanitation. Steve Joss, our DPW. Mike Olmas, public works, facilities and traffic. David Bebel, director of public works. John Sokolowski, public works. Caitlin Krieger, finance director. Thomas Cameron, assistant city attorney. Okay, thank you everyone. I'm going with the 2.1 approval of minutes from the September 28th meeting. Move to approve. Second. Motions were made in the seconded. Any other discussion on those minutes? All those in favor? Aye. Aye. Chair votes aye. Chair approved. We're going to move up 3.3 because we have some guests here and that way they don't have to sit through all the rest of the festivities. So we're going to start with 3.3 communication from Barb Lindsay, submitting a neighborhood petition requesting the installation of a street light on cell 21st Street between Broadway Avenue and David Avenue, discussion only. Mr. Chair, we received the communication and we've already started some action on it. And I'm going to turn it over to Mike Wilness who, facilities and traffic, it deals quite a bit with aligned energy, street light requests and he can explain kind of how we're kind of fast tracking this. We noticed that the block, believe immediately, West has a street light mid block and it would be advisable to put one on 21st Street in this area as well. So I'm going to turn it over to Mike. Caitlin said it all. Is that working? It works. So in a long story short, David, I've worked with public works myself and Ryan Stasmo. We can just kind of look at the area real quick. The adjacent streets and stuff like that. We fast tracked what we've done to Warren Gump had aligned energy on September 29th. So the petition went through. They make takeover of the movements. It's not going to be overnight phase. So what they do is they submit to their engineer and staff and they'll look at a location and stuff like that. But it'll be in the mid block area and stuff like that. Very quick, we got these requests here and there and in the dark areas. And when you start to look at the adjacent streets and what they've done, they missed yours. Solved, definitely. But, like I said, we submitted it to aligned energy on September 29th and we'll put that thing on there. Thank you very much. Thank you all for coming. Thank you all for coming. Thank you. We knew the bear was coming. Right on to 3.1, resolution 74, 21, 22, October 4th, 2021 into document 5.7, resolution authorizing the appropriate city officials to release part of an existing drainage easement and accept the new drainage easement on property owned by fifth generation properties, LLC Gateway Drive between Weeding Creek Road and Barrens Parkway. Yes, Mr. Chairman, the best thing is probably looking at the certified map. It kind of shows the existing drainage easement, which is more basically like an L. And now we're going to have the new easement is going to be that diagonal. And we're getting rid of the L section as part of the addition and work that they're doing on this warehouse. So it serves a purpose, keeps drainage flowing, and it's basically a swap of easement areas. So we recommend that this should be approved. I have a question for the city attorney. I have recently met with the principal of fifth generations properties about purchasing a home. We don't have any sort of contract anything. Do I need to stay out of this one? Am I good to vote? What would you like me to do? He hasn't made a decision on what he'd like to do yet. It's for this house. So is the house that you're potentially buying in this certified survey map, or is it different? This is the warehouse, correct? Yep, this is a warehouse. This is a project he's working on that I have nothing to do with. Just want to make sure that I'm not following up on anything. Yeah, I have no issues with you voting on this. Perfect, good. Moving to approve. I'm going to give you a second. Any other discussion on this issue? All those in favor? Aye. Any opposed? Chair votes aye. That is approved. OK, 3.2, resolution 7521-22, October 4, 2021. Document 5.8, resolution establishing the 2022 budget appropriations and the 2021 tax levy for use during calendar year. Mr. Chairman, what I'm going to do this evening is the item for consideration, the budget resolution, and what I'm going to present real quick is a real brief overview of the highlights. There really aren't too many highlights, because really, the Department of Public Works budget this year is remaining virtually flat. But we start out the process. We only imagine, we design, we build. That's public works. That's what we do. All right, I'm trying to get rid of that. So it's all based upon our vision of providing a professional public works organization that will offer quality infrastructure and services in a sustainable way that will contribute to making in Shibuya a desirable place to work, live, and play. And that helps really go right into our mission, our three pillars of success we'd like to call it. The first pillar being providing quality infrastructure that conveys safe, efficient delivery of essential goods and services, to provide clean and beautiful public spaces that maximize the natural environment, enhance the overall quality of life, and to deliver a professional quality public service with a friendly and welcoming atmosphere. This really puts Shibuya in a real good frame of reference. Those of you that, we're a large community, 15.8 square miles in area. I'd like roughly to say we're about two and a half miles live and probably almost seven miles long in cases for rough. But that's roughly equates to about 200 miles of streets we maintain, 36 parks, over 209 miles of sanitary sewer, 19 bridges. Every day, Steve at the wastewater treatment plant we're treating 12 and a half million gallons of sewage every day, almost 20,000 trees and 42 intersections and 185, almost 186 miles of storm sewer. So it just gives it kind of the enormity of the expansive infrastructure that the Department of Public Works in the city of Shibuya has to offer for our citizens, our residents, our business community and it's a tremendous responsibility and it's a tremendous cost. And when we're talking about the CDC, Public Works is the largest function and portion of the budget. So operations budget, we have 28 different cost centers that represent various work activities within the DPW. Mandy's cost centers for 2022's budget are remaining the same. So in other words, 2021 is the same for 2022. We didn't make really any changes. And our wastewater treatment plant, that's a portion on your water bill. There's a sewer charge. That rate is going to remain the same. There's no increase anticipated for 2022. You're not able to get rid of this storm. It's raining to the very top. Sure. We'll do that. Can I just, I guess you're going to do that. Okay. So this really just shows that this information is also in your Public Works agenda package, but the general fund portion of the budget, that's the portion of the budget that the tax levy funds. Personnel services, just for DPW personnel. That includes their salary, overtime, health insurance, pension and everything is roughly $6.6 million for the Department of Public Works. You go back to 2019, actual 6.6. So you can see again, personnel wise, where we're remaining in the department is a pretty consistent trend. It's not going up and we're remaining as flat as we can. The rest of the budget, all of the general fund budget items for Public Works to fund, that would include contractual services, construction materials, equipment, tools and equipment and other things. With the personnel and everything, it's total budget 12.4 roughly. 2021's budget, 12.4. Basically, we're actually from 2021 to 2022, we actually have a decrease of around $78,000 in the general fund portion of the budget that's being funded by the tax levy. Immediately, a lot of that was a result of the unfunded pension liability costs that were in the personnel line items that are no longer in there. In Caitlyn's office and finance department work, then city administrator's office worked on creatively shifting that out of the personnel line items. So that really helped our overall budget because although we had a decrease, you'll see in the next couple of slides that we did have some increases in our budget and mainly contractual services and CPI increases on duty utilities. So first of all, we're gonna go right down the list and a lot of this is right in your IFC packet, but I thought it'd be a little bit easier to do these visuals. City Hall, we have some decreases, 3500 in heating, 2500 in elevator maintenance and a decrease of 15,000 in electric. This is from 2009 to 2021. What this chart represents, the blue is the actual totals of costs. The red line is a 2% annual inflation rate just over that same period. And the orange line or yellow line, you can call it is the actual linear, smooth line of the blue. So it's just basically taking that blue data and giving it a straight line projection. And if you notice, it's running right along with inflation, 2% annual. So it's real conservative. So we're right on with, and that's after we did the major City Hall renovation and added square footage, adding heating and ventilating and air handling units that were never at City Hall before. So the additions and the building is efficient and it's projecting very well. So some of the other highlights, public works administration, my area, we're decreasing our training and conferences by 2000. And mainly it's because, one of the benefits of COVID is that we're finding you're able to do more online training and video conferencing instead of attending and going on, staying over at places and doing remote conferences. In fact, I'm going to be attending the national conference in a couple of weeks and I'm doing it right for my desk. Engineering, there's an increase of 13,000. That's mainly due to the equipment that we use in the field for data collection and the GIS and everything is becoming more and more electronic in terms of tracking, doing field collection and working with the satellites and GPS technology for surveying. We also have a decrease low of 3500 approximately again in training and conferences because of the online remote options. Our bridge budget is increasing 25,000 but that's mainly the H3 bridge which is our only lift bridge in the city and the computer system that operates it is in major need of an upgrade. I think it was upgraded probably 10 years ago and it's probably won't running Windows 2000. So, snow and ice, we have a decrease of $59,000 in the sand and salt line item. Couple reasons, right now we have our sheds full from last year, so that's a good thing but also we're going to much more, there's a real, you talk about environmental sustainability, there's a real push to decrease the salt that is being put on the roads and going to more of a liquid DIC and that's what this picture shows that it's a treated brine that is down first snowfalls and it prevents that bonding to the pavement. So, that's where some of the decrease that you're seeing with that as well. Sanitation and garbage, we're increasing that budget and there's a line item in there for transfer and tipping. We have a contract that manages, we take our garbage, we dump it out of the transfer station, they pick it up, they load it and they haul it to the landfill. That's a contract that's for five years. Every year there's a CPI increase that's in that contract. The max is only 5% but with the inflation where we're at we just estimated this year with the way inflation's been going and costs, we estimated high on this at this point. We should get the numbers, I'm thinking by the end of this month that we'll be next year. Sanitation for street cleaning, same thing, when we sweep the streets we have debris to get rid of, there's a slight decrease in that. However, the residential drop off, we're having to increase 10,000 for contracted services, mainly for our branch grinding that we do, as well as, again, 7,404 increase for tipping. We did the garbage that gets brought to the drop off site has to be disposed of again. Those costs are accordingly to the CPI. Parks decrease of 840 bucks, nothing too serious. Again, we're talking about an operational budget of 13 million roughly. Again, I'm just trying to give you some of the changes. They're not much, but I wanted to at least convey at least what we did this year. Harper's Cinema Arena fund, there is quite a few items here. It's not funded by the tax levy. But there's an increase in some of their contracted services, that's a contractual increase. There's an $84,000 spend and it's moving one of their dock sections. Their furthest north dock section, they're gonna move it interior further because the whole north side of the docks are not usable if the water is not deep enough. So by moving it in, they'll increase their amount of slips and they'll also generate then $50,000 annually in revenue. So it's got about a year and a half payback once we do that. Also, there's a $168,000 capital project of their fuel system. Their fuel system is original of when the marina was built roughly around 1994. I was gonna say 2004, but that was a little hard. So yeah, that fuel system is in need of an upgrade. The recycling fund, again, we take our recyclables, we take them to the same transfer station, gets dumped, gets loaded and it gets hauled away for processing. There's a fee for that. So that's going up by almost $19,000 roughly. Wastewater treatment, again, as I said, there's no increases in the rates. These are just some, I just wanted to give you some visuals. Here's a nice aerial of the plant. Here's some work that is being done. And this is a clarifier that they've been rehabbing, operations and the lab. But I just wanted to show you roughly in revenue. It's right around 9.4. You can see now, next year we're gonna get 19,700,000 roughly. But that's because 10 million is being earmarked for that capital project along the lake shore. So take that capital out of here. You'll subtract that 10 million out of here and we're right back to the 9.5, 9.4. Again, the reason for no increase needed for the wastewater rates. Motor vehicle, Rick Nye's area. Again, really not too much happening here. We've made some great, great improvements. And I'm showing you the revenues because finance and administrator's office and the council have made a commitment to really start bringing the revenues back and getting this fund to be self-sufficient. That's what the fund was for. This again, wastewater, the motor vehicle fund. These aren't funded now through the tax, let me. They're enterprise funds, they're proprietary funds. So they're separate of the levy. What has happened is over the years, motor vehicle was just held back. No increase, no increase, no increase for a long time. So our revenues were really never keeping up with our expenses. And what we were doing is we were using fund balance out of the motor vehicle fund on an annual basis to make up that shortfall. Well, that's not sustainable. You'd need that fund balance to acquire new equipment. So what we did this year and what we did last year is we raised it 2.5% and that's with this 2.3 now. It went from 2.9 to 2.2 million, 90, 2,000 to 2.3. So again, that additional revenue will help, again, establish that fund. So we're getting there, it's just taking time. So again, I just really wanted to give you the highlights. It's all within your packet, but I thought instead of reading, I'd rather give you some visuals and happy to answer any questions. And about this, great presentation. I really appreciated how you did some of the highlights there. You mentioned though, I've got a bunch of questions in there. You mentioned something about creative accounting regarding the unfunded pension liability. That sounds like Enron to me. Help me. What it means is I don't know what they did, but I'm happy because it helped their overall budget. But if they know, that's why Kate is here because she can explain it much better than I can. I'll say it's more strategic financial planning rather than creative accounting. So the debt service fund actually has a fund balance currently in it and it's been funded. There's this unfunded pension liability that's been in all these accounts in the general fund. The library's been paying it and it's in these personal services going to the debt service fund. So instead of having it come through those cost centers, it actually is going to be that debt related to the unfunded pension is going to be paid off through the debt service fund balance. Because it's a one-time debt that we don't have, we'll never have this particular debt again. We have sufficient fund balance to pay it off through the principal and interest, which is 2027. So, and it still actually keeps a fund balance in there as well. So in the grand scheme of things, it appears that the debt service fund has had more revenue than it has needed each year. So it's accumulated this fund balance. So we're utilizing it to help offset some of these costs that were previously in these operating budgets. That's great, great, great. You can ask other one. So where did this, so the city did not pay the pension liability that it had in the past? Did that pay, like when you, being a member of the WRS, I know that wasn't, and so in other words, like the, we're right now, I think it's currently 13% for employees wages, half of which is paid by the city. So the city wasn't paying that half, is that what was occurring? So my understanding is in 1992 or 1993, there was a change in WRS that required this every municipality that was participating to fund their full amount of pension liability. At that point, the city of Sheboygan actually almost had a loan out from the state of Wisconsin for that money. We've accumulated interest in things over the years. In 2007, and doing dates off my memory, so bear with me, 2007, we actually took out a different loan to pay off the state of Wisconsin. So the debt payment that's coming out currently is actually a bond issuance that was used to pay off the state of Wisconsin. They weren't paying it. And, and it didn't. Well, that was, I guess, that was still, they didn't pay, so this was during the 90s or they were actually before the 90s? It was before the 90s. The change came in, I think it's 1993, where the state required every municipality to pay their full share immediately, but then they offered an interest loan to any municipality that couldn't fund it at the time, correct? And so this is a way to at least offset the operating budgets and help out everybody else. Okay, so what's the anticipated payoff on this loan? So it is going to be paid off in 2027 because it is a bond issuance. We have certain requirements that don't allow us to pay it off early, but there could be, and I could actually reach out to Carol Work to see if there's any action on any callable portions of that debt. And just a follow-up on that. So what is the fund again, where it would be transferred? It is going to be coming out of the debt service fund. My next question, when I get on my soapbox about solar panels, I've seen like a million dollars worth of electrical cost. Can we not dedicate some of that money so it's offsetting it with electrical panels? Marcus, I have that in the capital improvement program or when we replace this roof, it's got over almost 100,000 square feet of rub area, but we don't want to put solar panels up until the roof's fixed. What do we fix on the roof? So well, it's got to go through capital improvements and it will be, again, coming up this next year as a project and we'll have to rank it, but that's part of the process. There's the roof cost and then there's the solar panel cost that would go then on as an alternate for energy savings that we could use directly at this facility if they help offset our electrical here. But yes, you'll see it more and more. And we've talked even at the treatment plant some opportunities there as you saw it's a large area. So we're trying to look at areas and again, we want to time it when we have those roof and we don't want to put it on an old roof and then have to take it off and all that. That makes sense, yeah. But it's there. It's about a, this project here, right along, I'll just be honest with you, it's about a $2 million project. Or just the roof. Well, and the solar panels. So, but we're looking at some energy rebates to help offset some of that. So we'll, again, it's going to be a project submittal. It's going to be ranked. It goes through a process. And again, we have more projects and needs than we have money. So that's how things get dropped, I understand. Okay, I'll step down off of that, so Bucks. Now, can we talk about vehicle rental? We're renting $1.8 million in stuff as an expense out of the general fund. What are you renting? Well, that's how our motor vehicle fund gains its revenue. Okay, so the general fund is paying into the motor vehicle fund. Correct, so we charge ourselves an internal rental rate for the equipment. And also those enterprise funds such as wastewater, which is not, their tax are not their tax, but their rates and their budget also pays in for motor vehicle. That's why the revenue is like two points up. Exactly. Understood. And then on both the recycling fund and the general fund, it looked like overtime was about 10% of the budget. Is that intentional 10%? No. No, it's a function of holidays and having collection five days a week and six trucks a day. Therefore, we're occasionally like when, I guess we have to do like a Saturday pick up or a holiday pick up, that's where that overtime cost will come in. In the recycling fund. In the recycling fund, it's a split between recycling and then garbage as well. In 50-50 split? No, it's probably 60-40. Three in recycling and then the recycling manager comes over time and the recycling garbage lead comes out of there and there's two recycling guys out of there and then four garbage. So, can we go more towards the general fund side of that, which is $360,000? One more, the other way, one, two, three, four. No, can I just, can you explain to me better what overtime is coming out of $362,000 on the general fund? Yeah, that's the, that's, now when I talk about the general fund, that is street work, that is snow plowing, that's parks, that's the entire department. So that's where that, that's the majority of the overtime. Quite frankly, you know, snow operations is about a third of that. I'm done asking about that one, makes sense, thank you. Boat facilities versus marina, why are they two different things? Well, that's a good question and we're trying to merge them. We just did not have time this year with the budget and the line, but we're working with, we're working with F3 marina. Because right now, the difference is the riverfront area slips, those are managed directly by Public Works and we take the rentals here, we do all the maintenance, we do all the coordination, but we're moving to the docks, putting them in the docks in the spring and so forth. We talked with F3, they're willing to take that on as part of the marina and we think it's a good option, but that opens up their contract and it will be some time to work through all the details. So I think that's one of our priorities in 2022 is to get through those details so that in 2023's budget, it will be merged in other words, thank you. Last question, I saw a line item for depreciation that was pretty high in one of the different special funds or designated revenue funds. Let me find it real quick here, but we don't pay taxes, we get taxes, how do we have depreciation? Like, where does that money going? Because it's going somewhere. It's really a balance sheet item, so it's for audit purposes and to make sure that our assets are accurately valued for the city really in our financial statements. So it's in, because of the type of fund it is, it's not coming out, it's not a cash type of transaction, it's really just a audit entry. So this isn't a, it's not a cash budget here. This is a prudent budget? We have, yeah, government has a couple of different types. So this one is more of a business type budget. I'm just gonna stop asking questions. Thanks. We want more clarification. No, no. You went from accounting 101 to 301 on me and I'm... Thank you. I guess I just have a quick question. I see that personnel from like the streets and sanitation has reduced quite a bit from like 2019 to now or actually down to 10 people is... Are we getting kind of close to the tipping point? And that's what I guess we're, I mean, I'm a little concerned about that when we're still plowing and things like that. Mr. Chairman, that's under my staff comments. It's just, we're this continuing trend of operating flat and very restricted budgets is not going to be sustainable for the long term. That's what I see. So, I mean, it's affecting, it's gonna affect operations. It's already affecting personnel. It's quite frankly, I've never had turnover in my 10 year like we're experiencing now. It used to be when we have employees there. This is great. It's a great place to be a man. I'm surprised. Granted, the market, the employability is, but it's getting tough. So, I know we've had conversations with the administration and the mayor's office and with Caitlin in terms of how do we, the state is, I was just frustrating because the state really handcuffs us in terms of being flexible on how we're able to raise revenue. So, but at some point as a community, we're gonna have to make a decision. What do we wanna be and what level? What level of quality of services and community do we want? And then this is the cost or this is the value. And how do we get there? And I know administration and Todd and the mayor and Caitlin have been working with ALRS on a strategic financial plan. And I think that's gonna help provide that roadmap and blueprint for the future. But this is tough. I'm proud of what we're submitting, but I mean, I'd love to have more money. Trust me, because we could do more. I mean, with more resources than I'm just saying, money is not just labor, but it gets materials, it helps everything. So, and that's just my commentary. But I think, I think where we're at now and with the plans that are being put in place, we will get there and it's becoming more and more attentive in terms of really being important. And I see it with the council, I see it with the administration. I think we're gonna get there. Because I see it as you're at the bottom as far. I don't, I think you're, we were about a winter, you're gonna be, do you hear me? I think so, I think with that amount of personality, because there's that many less people to applaud as well. Mr. Chairman, in 2004, the department had 154 employees. Today we're at 100. So, I'm just, no, I'm not saying we need to go all to the 154, but it just gives you a perspective of 16 years or 17 year period through attrition and holding the line and not backfilling it in things. You're getting to that critical mass of how you're right. Jason struggles with it every winter. And trust me, he's already on me. What are we gonna do? Well, that's why I brought it up. Because I see that as a critical point. You're 10 people less than you were two years ago and that's, I think that's, you know, that's concerning. And I think that's concerning. We're gonna have to address this in the near future. I guess that's my best way of saying it. So. Were you able to actually increase the minimum, the wages of the workforce? I mean, the hourly workforce to adjust to the current job market? That is, that's under study as we speak. And I'm waiting for the results of that. You're talking about the study, the audage, that is city-wide. Yes. You could, so you didn't do anything. You didn't try to do anything. Not, we're waiting. I'm anticipating that there's gonna be an adjustment needed. Again, we're already facing that already with some of the market pressures, as I mentioned, with employees coming in, working and leaving within a short period that that's, again, that's kind of a little bit unheard of over the years. So. Can I ask you how much do we pay the workforce, for example, that you use on hourly basis during the wintertime? I think it's $12, it is about $50, $40. I would say it's roughly between $22 and $24 an hour. So we have different levels coming in. We're on, if you don't, if you have a CDL, I have to ring guys in around the end point, which is around $20 and it's a little low. If you don't have a CDL, we're around the team and then we don't be up, it's in the same level. So I don't know what the CDL is. Oh, a commercial driver's license? Okay. So without the CDL, you would consider unskilled, someone without CDL. So we hired two individuals that didn't have a CDL, or you got them trained. So they came in a little lower than if you had a CDL. Which would be around $18. My top equipment operator, they can operate every piece of equipment and the building is, I have four of those equipment operators and they're between $29 and $30. Very good. So the unskilled would be around $18. It's an agent. I mean, it's worth a lot. Thank you. And the fear about that is that you've got people looking at the county and things like that that are poaching these guys because they're gonna make more money. We had, I hired a maintenance worker one, not a CDL. I trained him, he'd filed for me for three years. He left for $2. So I have another question. Sure. When we, when I started my work with the common council, I remember the first thing I was asked to evaluate was the CIP. I think it was my first or second meeting. And, Yes, right. And it was fantastic because I was able to, you know, get into the numbers a bit of it. One thing that stuck with me was how low was the budget allotted for the maintenance of sidewalks. It stuck with me. I was really impressed. Now, would this be the time, I don't think there has been any change on that. Would this be the time that we could discuss any changes on that allotment, on that appropriation? And if yes, how should we address it? Well, I would, I guess in terms of the budget, I guess Thomas is that, I mean, is that, I think the capital is part of the overall operations budget resolution that's in front of everybody this evening. I believe it, I believe it is. So as a committee, you could discuss and deliberate to make a recommendation that ultimately would come out of this committee and then I guess go to the common council. But it could also be coming out directly at the committee of the whole. You could do it that way as well. Very good. So I reserve that option. Thank you. But also you could comment on the fact that do you agree? Do you agree? I'm not going to disagree with you. We have probably over 300 miles of sidewalks to maintain. And you're right. But it's a general allotment every year. We go out systematically trying to do inspections and repairs. And it's been $100,000 for several years and as you are aware of, with inflation that $100,000 isn't doing the same amount of work that it did five years ago. It's doing a lot less. Yeah, actually it was $80,000. Yeah. So... Yeah. I understand that, no, I understand that it's not exactly priority. And it is the typical situation in which it's not high priority. It's not bottom line. It doesn't provide revenues. But still it's something that affects the debt section of the population that has issues with mobility seniors. It makes the city less walkable, less attractive, especially in some areas of the city. The more I drive around and look around the more I see the conditions of those. So, again, just it seemed to me that thinking of $80,000, I don't know even how many feet you fix with 80 dollars. I mean, I would like to know actually how much do you actually fix or maintain with $80,000. I don't know that you can do more than what. We base it not necessarily on linear feet. We can calculate that. We do it on square feet because it's squares. I'd say it's probably about 20,000, roughly square feet. Kevin, do you recall what our sidewalk total was in the bed? It was over the 9,000 square feet. Oh, boy. I suppose, and I used to run the sidewalk program back in the 80s and 90s. I guess prices have increased. So, yeah, I mean, I'm not, you're right. Again, as I stated, we have more needs and more projects than we have money. So again, how do we prioritize? How do we increase? And if we increase in this area, do we take some from somewhere else? Or the one advantage of the sidewalk program is that those charges are assessed to that property. So when we fix the sidewalk, the property is going to go down. The property owner actually pays for it. But I was under the impression that it's not happening anymore. For sidewalks, it is, except if it's a tree. If it's a tree that's raised your sidewalk, we'll pay for the tree damage. But if it's the rest of your sidewalk that gets repaired, then the homeowner gets that put on, they have an option to pay it right away, or they can put it on their property tax as a special assessment. So what is it that $80,000 budget covers? I'd say probably 50% of it is city cost and the other half is property owners reimbursing the city. Now, the difficulty with that being reimbursed is they have the ability to do it over time. So when we do our assessments to say we charge $40,000 and the bills are out there, we don't get $40,000 back right away. So on a cash flow basis, it's coming in year after year trickling in. And so it's kind of constantly rolling forward, in other words. But this budget's that cash flow, help us. Is this in the capital? This would be, well, it's in the capital, but it's under the special assessment fund or cash. It'd come out of the capital cash fund, special revenues, yeah. So there is cash, of course, involved. So it's going to just be kind of the rotating schedule, like Director Beville said, if we're not getting the money back in, there is a fund balance, I believe, in this fund. I can look at what that is. And not all of it comes back in, correct? Not all of it. Because of the tree damage. Correct. Things like that. And does this also take care of some city-owned areas where there are city sidewalks also to do that. Correct. Right. Which perhaps is part of what I meant. Although, so basically, we don't know at this point what is the sidewalks that are city-owned or that the city is fully responsible for. And what is, in fact, proportionally, what is that? For city-owned sidewalks versus private? Well, they're all city sidewalks. That's, let's just speak. But what is it, when I would say how we characterize it, what would be eligible for assessments? And I would say it's about 95% of the city is accessible. It's not, we have sidewalks by parks, but other than that, it was one of the things with non-taxable properties, such as churches and some of them in the schools, they still pay for a special assessment if we would assess for those improvements. So that's one thing. So yeah, it's a large proportion of that would not be city-owned. And finally on this topic, is that common practice for cities to assess private owners to fix the sidewalks? Yeah, in fact, it's common practice for streets I think it's, I think it's one of the better things that the city has done is we eliminated the street assessments. So when we would go out and do a street improvement, that would have to be calculated and it was per lineal foot of your property and you would get a bill per foot. Have you had a 60-foot lot? Actually, I did. Yeah. I thought it was the first gift as soon as I bought the housing. Yeah. But so that is clear. When was that changed? That was changed roughly... 17, 60, 40, 70. So I assume that the sidewalks in theory, the sidewalk call and assessment system could be also challenged and changed. It could be. The difficulty with that is the city has, how do we start with that? The city by state statute is responsible for the maintenance and upkeep of city sidewalks. And by having it all picked up by the city, the fear would be is that we would have far more requests for work than we would have the ability to repair and the money to repair. And therefore, once we're on notice of an area that may be not sufficient and someone would be injured, leave it up to Thomas on how we could. But that's part of the reason why we have an annual program where we go out on complaint basis, we'll inspect, we do a systematic, we have zones. It's been pulled up and through time and time again is that the understanding is the expectation of a city is we can't fix everything all the time. It's just too much of a large of a problem. But we do have a program, we recognize it, we do have an inspection, we do have a budget set up for it and we have the ability to go out and check on complaints. So that's kind of the basis of the program. I guess the dilemma would be if you would take it to the next step and there would be no assessment when we're out there fixing some panels that are, the request would be, I want it all done because I wanted all the match, but not all panels need to be repaired. So that's where, if you wanna have them all done and you're gonna pay for it, we'll do it for you. But if we're out there and we're only taking care of the bad panels and you're gonna have two nice brand new sidewalk panels, but you'll have some older worn discolored panels next to it. That's fine as well in terms of being a safe walkable surface. And I guess my comment would be that with the system in place we have now currently, that also I think it brings in more people to do their own, to take care of their own. Instead of, if we went to a different plan now that you would have, like you said, all you have to be all these requests, I want my whole sidewalk replacement, I want my whole, I think this way if somebody comes in and they say, I got four panels that are shot, I'd like to have the whole thing done right away. I want it all a match. So that people do that. I mean, it happens all the time. So I'm having my driveway done. I want to do the sidewalk right away. That's true. The only thing is that then it ends up that the landlords that are responsible may work on that. And those in some areas of the city where there are mostly landlords that are not as responsible, they will not take care of that. So the actual result is that in some areas they are more deteriorated and they will be more deteriorated because it's almost considered an optional fix for anybody and rentals go, I mean tenants go even out and they will not even express a concern about that in some cases. And I just want to, I don't want to take more of a final omitted but there is one more thing about this. Similar question, alleys. What I don't understand yet when an alley is maintained is responsibility of the city, when it is not, when is the residents that are assessed. And that's because I have been visiting some constituents and so I have been witness the conditions of some alley that are a couple of them, they were most of those that I have seen in Sao Paulo, Brazil, when I was there. And that is one in particular that I was really shocked to be able to get to that. On that note. So, I have a neighborhood association and I got one too. Okay. So just a question. The alleys are publicly, they're city, they're city owned and they're public right away. But they're not, they're not prioritized in the sense that, again, we have 200 miles of city streets to maintain and the streets are our main source of transportation through the community. It serves a greater good. The alleys serve the immediately benefiting properties. Now, we do some alley repair and that's in the case of when we have our own equipment, we're collecting garbage in an alley and it's getting troublesome for our workers or our equipment. We'll actually go in and do some repairs so it's better for and safer for our operation. But yeah, if an alley would really get repaired, it would take really all of the neighbors to get together and say, we want to do this and we're going to pay for it. So, but otherwise it is up to the city to maintain the alleys. There is no that same situation in which the residents would be assessed. If it's a complete repair of an alley, they would be assessed for an alley. So it doesn't apply the same idea that we applied to roads and streets. Right, because the greater traveling public and the citizens all use the roads frequently to travel. The alleys really serve the property and the garages of those residents and that's kind of the distinction. It's still public, don't give you, it's still a public right away. And if there's drainage issues or some other issues that are, we also go in and repair those. But if it's just a rough alley and it's not in good condition, yeah. I understand my idea. So I think we are pushing the boundaries of the agenda topic. Yeah, and I understand, and I apologize for that. It's actually very useful though, the clarification. Thank you. All right, any other comments, questions on this? Do we have a motion on this then? Move it to approve. Second. Motions are made to approve. Send to council. Any other discussion on this? Great job. All those in favor? Aye. Is that opposed? Chair votes aye. That is approved. Our next meeting is October 26th, 2021. I'll give the results of the agenda. Move to adjourn. Second. Made second. All those in favor? Aye. Chair votes aye. We are adjourned. Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on. Come on.