 Well, welcome everybody, this is our second deep dive webinar. This time we got Rami's Kent here Hey Rami's, how you doing this morning Rami's? I'm good. It's it's uh, I know you're in the evening Yeah, it's it's it's seven it's 7 p.m. Here in in the UK, and um Thankfully the Sun's out actually where I'm looking right now. There's It's all this cloud in the sky, which is quite Unusual yeah, looks like it looks like it's just a sunny there for you except you're on the other end of the deal Yeah, indeed indeed cool Well last time we uh, we had John Luan No, we got some more of the context for the ecosystem restoration camps Foundation and and how all kind of that got started and I know you're deeply involved with that You're the currently the advisor for the restoration happening on the camp And I know we'll get into that some of that But you know you also have a history as a designer and as a consultant as a teacher through the permaculture approach And that story has also woven with the origin of the ecosystem restoration camps foundation So maybe to get into it all let's let's can you introduce yourself and some of that history and uh, I'm sure that'll dive us into a lot of that Yeah, so um first of all Good evening everybody. Oh, good morning wherever you happen to be My name's my name's from East Kent. Uh, I um, I'm I'm currently serve on the supervisory board for The ecosystem restoration camp foundation um, and I also serve as a co-director of the permaculture research institute both the Australian branch and also of uh, pr i usa um, and uh, I also am the founder and director of the business that I've Started in the uk have registered in the uk with a uk company's house called agroecological natural technology systems or ants um limited so, uh, I've been involved in doing this uh, this work this permaculture design or regenerative design work. However, um, Whatever moniker you want to use? since 2009 um, I have uh, my formal educational background is is in Kettering um, which I got my degree now 20 Three years ago, which is quite frightening uh, and I worked um mostly with um, sort of medical uh devices and get a rnd work One of my my first job out of college was was with uh, dean came in The guy who invented the segway? Um, I actually used to work for him while that was still kind of like a skunkworks project many moons ago um, and uh, you know, I've been able to take my experience from uh, you know, some of my engineering my past engineering work and interest in life sciences biology ecology and and combine them in in this capacity And um, it's been it's been um, it's been really interesting. It's been fascinating It's uh, you're always learning something you're always meeting great people going to interesting places eating good food um And uh, and I think that you know the erc in many ways um is is an attempt to try to uh Make that available to to a wider uh variety of people a wider population of people that have a similar interest, but maybe not have uh an opportunity to to be able to um, actually Be in a place where you actually you have a project that is running in addition to um, uh, you know practical trainings and um capacity building and not in knowledge and skill building sort of all in in one location and especially in a place that has many features of the of the types of problems that you're likely to run into uh, especially when when when uh, hoping to Improve this this problem of land degradation and desertification that we're seeing in of ever growing parts of the globe so um, that's uh That's me in a nutshell more or less the there's more to tell but um, we'll see if That that that sort of spills out as we get further into it. Well, let's spill. So this is a deep dive so let's spill some of it out so Yeah, so how'd you get into this and then also how did you know? I know your career with the pri and everything and then with jeff lotten and that all kind of overlapped With you know, how you met john lou and how all this why don't we dive into some of that? Get a little more of the context this flesh because you have your own angle on how all this kind of began and it's interwoven with a lot of things, you know Yeah, yeah, so um I I met jeff the first time I met jeff was in 2008 And I was still living in the san francisco bay area at the time and um Funnily enough, I was work. I was working um as an administrator for um an arabic language program That was being held on the campus of uc berkeley That was being run by um some some friends of mine and uh in the course of Helping to run sort of some of the logistics um of of that that with that class um I met uh A woman who was a who was a student in the course who used to work for jeff and nadia um in australia and she uh She was the person who actually introduced me to um permaculture. I had no idea what it was and um And she's like you don't know about permaculture. I'm like, no, what the heck is that? And everyone's first stage reduction to it I'm sorry. I'm not I'm not knowing and she uh she showed me the uh the the original greening the desert video which Um, I I'm I can't remember when that that first video was made. It's basically that stop animation video and jeff is narrating over it um, so I So this is the first site that was in the in the jordan valley and I remember seeing it and immediately It just pressed all my buttons you know in the in a in a the best sense of the term and uh And I just remember just thinking to myself. I have to I have to do that And at the coincidentally he was uh Jeff was coming to the bay area to do a handful of classes and workshops uh At a place called well the place the place he was coming to in the bay. Um On the date that we're going to go up and see him was uh sultans hope And necasio which is it's in marin county so um we got a group of of of some of the students that were in the course and we went to go visit um And nadio was was on a trip as well and In meeting him in meeting jeff I came to find out that he knew an old friend of mine And that sort of cemented for me. Um, you know my my intention to go down and and see what I could learn from him So, you know, I told him hey, I want I want I'd like to you know see about I could study with you come down and study with you And he said yeah, I just come this one. I just come on down and so this was at his at his farm zaituna farm in the shannon in uh northeast new south wales about 45 minutes inland from Byron bay so, um, I spent three months On the farm took about four or five classes He taught like it taught this whole string of courses back to back to back to back to back and then uh, he and this is also in Kind of the the early days of what's now the internship Uh program that he that he has established. So this was kind of before it really was Kind of a super organized codified thing So I had a chance to do that I jumped in on a couple of uh of consultancies one of them being, um, Mazdar city In oba lobby, which firmly enough I had I had been interested in probably about two or three years earlier when I first heard about the project I think it was oh six was the first time it had actually been for, you know, kind of publicly talked about so, um that that just opened my eyes to a number of possibilities for applying, you know, the whole the permaculture work um specifically To the issue of land aggravation and desertification. I mean actually that came that came a little later on And and and that is where the connection eventually to to john lu Came together. So I I had met, um Someone who was working for uk diffid um, and He wasn't able so we had collaborated on on um on some work And trying to put some information together to get to to to make the case for funding A project specifically there was a project in pakistan and the flood zones of pakistan And send the province so they had big floods there like 2010 or 2011 So we were able to you know, make a case to get a project funded I was able to find a couple of people to get um to manage that project and then Uh, I had in his stead in his place. I'd been invited to a conference called the co-forum uh for human security in co switzerland And the year that I met john was the first year they had put together Uh a program specifically looking at the problem of land aggravation and linking that to human security So it's called the co co forum Dialogue on land insecurity. Let's see a u a x or k Yes, see you see a ux co. So friends, you know For uh swiss french, so it's a it's a it's a small mountain village Just above mantra Overlooking lake geneva. It's a beautiful place and and and there's some You know, some really great people that had a chance to meet at that um at that event and and so john is one of those people And um, so that was uh the summer of 2011 And it was there that we had um I had I had told him about needing to Introducing him to jeff jeff larkin uh, so I had I had seen john's films, uh I think was hoping to change in climate and and lessons from the lowest plateau And uh, and then I told him look you need to go see my guy jeff And I told him he's gonna be in jordan in the fall And uh, it would be good if you could get together and maybe talk to him About some of the work that he's doing so he had a chance to go Uh to meet up with him in jordan and then the the bad experience And some of the film work that he did eventually led to The the making of the of the documentary green gold So green gold had premiered on vpro in in holland. I think it was april Let's hope something like that So, uh, that film came from uh, you know partially came from us meeting And um, and then he you know, he said after meeting jeff. He says, you know, he said whatever you guys are doing I'd like to I'd like to really You know collaborate with you or work with you or whatever it is that you're involved with and um and then that basically sort of led to um Trying to crystallize the side The that is now erc. So he had written um He had written a uh An article Let me see if I can pull it up. Uh, that had been published on the uh, permaculture research institute website about the creation of Ecological restoration training centers All right, so that was that was probably And then eventually in 2015 or 2016 when I was teaching a course in tuskeny northern italy um He happened jim john happened to be in the neighborhood attending a conference I told him why don't you come and spend a you know, just come visit maybe spend a couple of days um and and you know in the course of doing this pdc and uh That's really started to talk about some of the detail and then eventually Um, so that was that was spring That was like must have been may 2016 summer 2016 while I was in the states. I had talked to alfonso um Afonso chico de gusma is whose family owns the that we now currently have You know the first pilot urc site set up on And um after talking to alfonso, that's when it just all pretty much crystallized and we pulled in You know more people that could provide Some of the technical particulars that would need to be um That would need to be on head in order to really put some meat on the bones so to speak and so now you know, we've we've we've got You know, we've got a formal You know foundation set up registered in holland Um, you know, we've got people on the ground there, you know, just signed together by you know by other designers that have been called in other advisors have been called in so hopefully You know, this is this is allowed for the groundwork to be laid that will refer to something that can be replicated and and Set up elsewhere. Yeah, beautiful Um, I want to tell everybody while that's out there. I know we got uh, I see a few names. I recognize Alex and gabriel and uh, we got judo swartz here listening. I want to Yeah I want to let everybody scott. Hey, how's it going and um Just want to let everybody know who's listening to think of questions and as you think of them Feel free to put them in the q and a and we're good We want to get set a lot set aside at least a half hour at the end To get to all your questions and if need be I can even unmute your microphone so we can chat with you Um, but just you guys are we're all participating in this together So we're deep diving and you're deep diving with us. So Keep keep your questions coming And and then let's get a big stockpile of those and and have a nice session with that at the end So I want to yeah, I have to have to say judo. Judith. Judith is a fellow co-traveler So she would she was up there. Oh must have been was it last year? I haven't last year. I saw up there um Elizabeth kucinich Dennis kucinich's wife, you know the congressman Yeah, so, uh, yeah the piece Hopefully hopefully governor of ohio coming up um So, yeah, it's it's been Yeah, that's that that again that that particular event has been really great I mean we're alan savoury and his wife judy. We've met, um Folks from, uh, you know various un agencies other, you know, uh, villain for worder from common land formerly of icn You know lots of really really good people You know up there Shot shot shot out to the co-form mission has changed Yeah, I gotta get out there one of these years. It sounds like a very powerful place. Yeah. Yeah, you really do you really do It's a good place good people I was just telling uh someone who had a Interesting bit of input in the chat that feel free to do that too But also feel free to take your interesting insights or thoughts Doesn't even have to be in the form of a question and put it in the q&a too so we can consolidate But either way The participation is a great thing um so Let's let's get a little bit into what's happening at the camp because I know uh a lot of folks are really interested in ad and You're kind of the main advisor for what's happening there and you've been watching the progress You know what the land was like before you know what the region was like before You know what some of the ramifications of a good model site in the region are Let's get into some of that. You know like what's what's happening in spain and and uh Where's it going? Well, I mean spain I think spain is a interesting well southern spain in particular Is a really interesting setting. I mean Historically speaking um, you know the area that the project is based in um specifically it's a place called la juanquiera Um is uh, it's on the altiplano. So I think elevations that they're upwards of um Uh thousand meters Yeah, you know better a little more. Yeah a little more than a thousand maybe maybe maybe be somewhere closer to 11 11 or 1200 so it's It's you know, it's it's you know, it's up there and it's all um It's in terms of the climate it's semi arid So you're looking at rainfall of somewhere between 200 and 250 millimeters a year Um, he is actually That's a good year You know that that's you know on average and we've had some of the um the folks on site that have been chasing down some of the data Uh, you know, they've they've been able to to pull up some of the local, uh, the the local precipitation Uh, uh annual uh fall Over the last I don't know maybe 20 or 20 years or so 25 years And you'll you'll you won't get You won't really see many years, you know, if any over to be in recent in recent memory so um a lot of the You know the land there and and elf and you did a you know, you did an interview with alfonso I think his family. I think his family's had that that property since What? 16th century Well, not that property Their family has been farming the the region for 500 years 500 years. Yeah, they've only had that property since like the 1800s Okay Right So, you know, they're they're basically two families that that own You know pretty large amount, you know a lot of land in that area. I mean roughly You know between I think between the two families it's it's upwards of You know 30 square kilometer. I'm sorry. Yeah, 30 square kilometers. Yeah huge It's about it's about, you know, it's 3000 3000 hectares And then with their relations especially especially through alvalol and their relations. There's I mean, there's a whole region full of farmers who are totally. Yeah Totally. Yeah So it's it's um, you know, what's what's it's interesting to see, uh You know, just in terms of the the the la la longevity You know and the continuity and and and sort of the people that have been involved involved with um The the management of landscapes up there, you know, over the course of the last Few hundred years But I mean if you take it back further and I thought this was interesting, you know, what alfonso had said and And in your interview with him. Yeah And this gets into some of the kind of the larger historical dynamics of spain Say between the the history of like moorish spain, right But pre and post moorish spain now. This is a particular interest to me because I'm you know, I've been Muslim for All the years, right and and I think Spain as sort of an edge You know between, you know between europe And you know what is nominally called the the muslim world Yeah, because yeah, no exactly because it's you have like the The christian sort of kingdom and then the muslim kingdom We're right north and south of this region where this camp is and so this was the no man's land. Yeah, yeah Right exactly. So it's it's right. It's right on the border between um, morphea and and the luthier Right, so it's just it's it's it's just a really interesting Setting, you know for you know, not only just in terms of the physical The physical characteristics and the and the climatic characteristics, but just historically Um, it's you know, it's really it's really interesting and it's and I thought it was really telling to um, you know what what alfonso was saying about What had happened in terms of the land use? Yeah, oh say post the you know the the you know the uh The pushing out of you know of the moors, right from those places. So, you know previously A lot of those regions still had a lot of a lot of the tree cover. They had not been completely clear It was oak oak oak forest. Yeah, right. It was mostly mostly oaks, you know, it's quirkus of some variety So, you know, it probably was some variation on on the dehace on the on the dehasta Where you had, you know, some you had The trees probably along with with with some livestock Whether or not that was um, you know, that had been managed by way of Being able to affect the movement of either, you know wild game Or you had some sort of domesticated livestock, but it was not It had not been used necessarily for the cultivation of say cereals, which is what we're currently dealing with now is the um So the the the outcome or the aftermath of this of this sort of mass Activation of cereals over the course of several decades. So, you know, it was mainly oats and and barley and and those kinds of things so You know a lot of a lot of what we're seeing in terms of the You know the the start starting condition of of the of the landscapes in those areas is just it's just simply A consequence of of that regime of management So most of you know, most of the tree cover was removed So you go from mostly perennials to the cultivation of annuals quite a bit of tilling Courses as we've gone further into, you know, over the course of the 20th century The use of heavy equipment. Yeah, I know Exactly, you know a lot a lot of right And then the Intrusive nature of of how soils are prepared to cultivate those things. Um, I think what's really interesting is I've recently been reading Uh, uh, a book written by a really sharp academic named James C. Scott called uh against the grain And uh, it's subtitled as a history of the early estates That's on my list. I haven't gotten to it yet. Yeah Yeah, a great book. I mean, it's not big but I mean he just hits on so so many great, um You know Beep information in terms of a of more general understanding of Of how of how history. Yeah as unfolded and especially how history has largely been driven by uh, you know by agriculture at least modern history And and I think this you know in spain made example of that. So for example He talks about how um As it was was basically accomplished By uh through the the four domestications So he said the four domestications are plants plants animals fire and people And I and I would think I actually possibly of a fifth could be water. Maybe not in that order. Yeah. Yeah, maybe not not And this isn't yeah, and this isn't necessarily in You know in in a uh in terms of order of that kind of chronological order or logical progression But it's there is those those four things allowed for If not the establishment of states the it allowed for um human populations to be sedentary and he and he makes and he makes the delineation between The establishment of of civilization at i.e. You know a state or a polity And and having groups of people that live in one place for an extended period of time And they're not necessary and they're not necessarily synonymous and I thought this was a really great insight because you know You read people like Jared Diamond You know diamond makes um, you know, he says sort of similar things, but there is that bit of um You know sort of a qualification You know in in terms of what exactly it it meant for people to be quote-unquote civilized the people to create civilizations Right guns germs and steel. It was Yeah Yeah, I mean obviously those things are involved Yeah, and yeah, I mean and even with the germs You know even with the germs part the germs part is intimately linked to the agriculture. Yeah The culture because you know agriculture Brought all of these these components together That then you know, you have this whole other set of biological dynamics That that influences the you know, the you know, the rising up of these, you know pathogenic um, uh these pathogenic elements, right? So if you know, it's it's You know, you could see that stuff You know When when you when you arrive in a place like la juanquiera, you know, at least from the standpoint of You know the agriculture portion because you know the point that scott makes in the book is and the reason why he says that um, it's these that agriculture allowed for the establishment of states is because Through the cultivation of of crops that were easy to store i.e grains, right that the state Can then levy taxes that allows for the state to actually exist like fire cattle grain Formation of states and domestication of humans is kind of one thing, right? Maybe right well Well, so so actually to that point is what so this is the other interesting part about about that is um and it's funny because I was just reading about about this before I got the book is is the whole, uh you know the whole About whether or not Population drew drew agriculture, right? right The need like the need to be able to produce enough food to accommodate more dense populations and that was that was thomas malthus right or Or it was the ability to be able to manage populations That allowed for the advent of agriculture now that's that's that's ester bolster Or the or the increase of available food gives rise to an increase in population, which is that now for his principal too, right? Yeah, right, but but but so but the thing is this is so this is where scott's insight becomes really valuable is that You know, he talks, you know, he says look people weren't exactly Chomping at the bit to be held to one piece of land right so So the only way that agriculture was possible is if you have The labor like you you need the energy capacity you need the work you need the work capacity That actually is allows for you to be able to cultivate Relatively large areas of land because if you don't have the work capacity, you can't you can't do the work You can't do the things necessary to produce a crop And and especially with the types of crops that that were being relied upon So you required more close care From people and actually produce That again, none of this is possible and and and with the further domestication of the varieties that we now, you know, are kind of assumed to be You know The the bulk of our our food stuffs Yeah, there's no way you could have the numbers of people that we have and so now obviously at this point in history You know, you go from Relying on human labor to mechanized labor You know with the advent of you know being able to convert You know the energy capacity of You know fuels fossil fuels into mechanical work Right, then that allows for you to be able to do more work with less people Right Which is and that's easier to manage if if you can you know if you get access to the capital The financial capital that allows you to get access to the equipment now This is like you know, so this is the stuff that I often sit around thinking about in my kind of engineering mind Right and more and more people more and also part of the engineering situation is we have more and more people or not engineering But the situation we have more and more people with time on their hands You know, and that's right. That's either a good or a bad thing, right? It's no well, that's well That's exactly it. I mean because come on me. I mean you then get to the you know to the problem of okay Well, how do you manage? You know these growing populations of sedentary people or how do they? All right, collaborator. Yeah, however you Or how you know depending, you know, whatever it is that you have in mind to do Yeah, so this is you know, this is where you know, you start getting into the you know, the The chronic problems of human history right is that they are they are a consequence of You know one's ability to be able to number one Marshall the the labor capacity that allows for The type of work that is done on land that that Creates the kind of wealth that ends up being funneled to a smaller and smaller and smaller sliver the population Right and then again and then understanding that people don't willingly Give themselves over to that kind. So you got to figure out ways to manage ever-growing Popular label that at this point in history You don't necessarily need anymore because you have other ways of being able to get the labor Necessary to do the work that creates the wealth. So now you have like egg population You know, so so I mean it's just You I think being able to look at At at history and also current events through that lens, right? Uh, just simply certain things as a as a kind of a mechanical or functional um reality They're just certain things that have to be faced And and and if you're not and if you don't know those things then you you can become really confused rather quickly But if you understand kind of the the nuts and bolts and the odds and ends of of what you kind of have to have In order to produce the current world that you live in Um, and it becomes a lot more clear and then you can kind of anticipate the types of problems that you're likely to run into And so this is so I think this is very much at the heart of what you see Um at the lahua and kerosite is that the the type of degradation that you see on you know on that property is just emblematic of Those historical dynamics. So, you know, if you go to if you go to jarrett diamonds, um You know work and let me see if I can I'm gonna pull up my first slide if that's okay Let's do it So if you go, you know, if you go to you know, the jarrett diamonds work, which I think is You know, that's that's a pretty good place to you know to start off um, you know, he looks at the the major uh the the The most common modes of failure for human civilization And what's interesting about those modes of failure is that they are all tied to um Something connected to the the mismanagement of land Right there. It's you know and and this is pretty much spanning You know, the you know, the the vast majority of of human history. Let me see if I can do this really quick Oh here we go. Sorry and let me know if this uh This works and you're gonna pull up the scott book too. Do you have a visual because uh, I yeah, I I am okay cool So here so here's the Let me know if that that shows Let's see. Yeah, I got that. Yeah, it shows. Okay. Okay, so So the two the two slides The two books that are shown here uh topsoil and civilization It's verney gill carter and tom dale I think that book was first published in the mid 1950s And then I think they ran like the second edition was like in the 70s or something and then And the collapse jar diamond that's from 2005 um I believe And so if we go to the next slide I don't so the most commonly cited causes of civilization or collapse in both Uh diamonds book and in carter and dale's book You know, I think probably david montgomery and his in his birth book dirt talks about the same thing Are deforestation habitat destruction soil problems, which would include erosion salinization and fertility losses and water management problems These are all of course directly related to soil health and I think what's interesting is Is that they aren't necessarily three different modes of failure That everything that follows from the first Um from the first failure mentioned is the logical progression Right, so if you if you destroy the forest and destroy habitat you get rid of the vegetation You're going to have soil problems because you just wiped out The the the primary generators of organic matter that builds up the soil Yeah, so and then once you have the soil problems You don't you no longer have the the things that generate the organic matter that builds the soils You're going to have problems with erosion and and salinization or soil salting And you're going to lose fertility because you don't have anything that's reinvesting into That bank of of nutrients Right, um and not not to mention, you know also the you know the biology that's involved and then lastly You know the water management problems are also That's that's about right because if you don't have the organic matter to to to provide the means of storage for water And then if the ground becomes so hard and impermeable that you can't put water back into the ground Um, then you're going to have you're going to have problems with your water And you don't have trees to help make the rain. Yeah, yeah, right. So exactly. So I mean and I want to come to Yeah, exactly. I'm going to come to a presentation from professor Milan Milan where he talks about how It was a paper he wrote called water begets water He said the vegetation is the midwife, right? Right of of you know, basically of of uh precipitation or water Right. Yeah. Yeah Go ahead. I was just going to say in your presentation To you do you get to are you going to talk about the relevance of some of his calculations? Of restoration in spain Absolutely. Yeah, I'm I'll bring that up in just a moment. So I mean so the the great thing about Aha, there he is. There he is. Yeah, I'm sorry. Well, I mean, we lost you. Yeah, okay. Sorry guys I just went downstairs to make sure my family didn't It's sabotage room start watching videos or something right? Okay. No, no. They're good. It's it's all right. So where was I? Okay, so you had your screen up you were talking about um, You were talking about so the deforestation soil water You're bringing back and we were going to talk about Milan Milan But you're still kind of in that in that flow Yeah, so so the the the great thing about professor Milan Professor Milan Milan this this spanish climatologist Uh, who I you know, I found out about through uh, john um I had a chance to meet him in uh, switzerland uh, i'm sorry that's switzerland uh holland and uh, uh denbosch and um um That was in the fall, you know by november november ish and um, he was able to You know give give me a some of his Some of his research in the form of a you know presentation That really that covers a lot of this stuff and it and it really is it's it's fascinating And specifically again, he's looking at the dynamics of what we see in spain and and Not only just what's happening in spain, but Generally speaking what's happening in the mediterranean basin um You know specifically with the the way that precipitation Is is behaving You know the climate dynamics in the in the mediterranean basin now, of course He has an interest in what's happening in the western portion of the mediterranean basin Because because fave effectively lost a lot of their um, what they would typically have in the summer Their precipitation that would fall over the course of the you know The last several years And this is one of the reasons why you know, you've seen an increasing problem with you know drought and fire The in the iberian peninsula is because they've you know, they've lost um, you know the moisture and not only that they lost lost the moisture but with with the changes in land use and with the removal of a lot of the vegetation Then of course, this is going to affect Um, you know not only the amount of moisture that is able to stick around in the atmosphere You have problems with you know, you have issues without no I mean you have the inversion layer in the atmosphere you have Again the hardening of the ground so you don't have the same Degree of infiltration of water so the hydrological dynamics change The you know the the the again store and hold heat and release it again To sort of the thermal capacitance and dynamics of what's happening in atmosphere he um He was able to uh Provide I think some really great information Um with regard to the to this particular issue. So he um, let me see if I can pull up some of this stuff So current slide show Okay, so let me know if this okay, um shows sorry You guys you guys see this not yet not yet Okay, hold on how about now now you started your year it is there it is Okay, so this is this is part of what he um, you know, we've given us so here um the water resources Uh provided by precipitation from the large weather systems Um, again, this is regarding the the you know, you know the the hydrological cycle and what he says is the current wisdom um So here he he mentions Uh The amount of available water depends on the location of the watershed and can result from different types of precipitation So generally speaking he says, you know Judging the 50 years of Precipitation data he has on what's happening in spain Um, and he is in valencia that depending on where you are in the you know in the region That of course some places are going to have more precipitation than others Simply because what the the dynamics between the ground and the atmosphere are going to be quite different You know, you're going to have some areas that are going to have more vegetation than others And then and then if that's the case then the the nature of The rainfall and the the period the periodicity of the rainfall the intensity of the rainfall Um, and then what happens, you know pre and post rainfall is going to is going to be You know quite different than somewhere else that doesn't necessarily have those same factors Uh, so here in the Mediterranean region of valencia There are three main precipitation components Originating from three different weather regimes and affecting different parts of the territory Right, the most volatile of these components is the one due to summer storms and he's and what he said is That that their summer storms Have changed Over the time that land use has changed now specifically um Here's a picture of the the cloud cover that would would collect over Some of the the hills and the mountains and of course you'd get that whole or a graphic effect Measure to have moist air masses be driven up higher and Higher into the atmosphere and then eventually if you have enough moisture in the right You know the right temperature and pressure conditions it precipitates out But but that's all heavily influenced by whether or not you have The vegetation on the ground which can help to buffer or mediate or drive those those those dynamics now this this figure was The one that was particularly of interest to me when when he showed it um At in in holland so here in the in the top portion of the figure large subsidence Then precipitated water vapor and pollutants are affected out of the region Obviously you see here on the ground you see much more in the way of vegetation And then as a result of of having those things be made available, which which again can moderate The the effect of temperature the amount of moisture in the air um That you're going to have a certain amount of of um Of water be be made available Fall back down as rain You know over the amount of time that it's that it's able to also dwell in that area. So of course you have time you've got um again the the amount of evapotranspiration that that is um that is being provided by the vegetation obviously again temperature affected by um albedo effects um And then depending on the rainfall ability to get it back into the ground and then slow the amount of time Or extend the amount of time that that water is moving through a given landscape and they can be cycled back up into the atmosphere That's going to affect the rain you have within a given location so He had said something about needing Upwards of 21 grams of water per kilogram of air in order for you to have In order for you to have rain And I think presently um, you simply don't have those That that attrition of water per kilogram of air Because the vegetation the vegetation is no longer there which allowed for that for that slow Transpiration steady release. Yeah, right right. So you don't have you don't have you don't have the amount of water that's being Put back out into the atmosphere that can then be again driven up into those higher elevations And then eventually fall as rain and so he talked about also how the because of of the the way that The the air in a given region would cycle you would also be able to have that cycling of pollutants Right and then you would have kind of more and more and more of that You know of particular particulates in the air and you would get a real concentration of of pollution in certain areas and then and then the other thing I thought was interesting was he said that That although you may have a loss of precipitation in one portion of the mediterranean basin What it's resulted in is in it is an increase in rainfall in other parts Of the mediterranean basins and then specifically he said if you go to this further east And even up in the central europe You have an increase in the amount of on the number of flood events So you've lost the water in the west increased it in the east And and so it's so you have so you have that same thing That's occurring you have some variation of that that's occurring in lots of different places You know across the globe because because you know everybody has some version Of that change in land use that has Resulted in the removal of the of the vegetation of the tree cover of the grasses whatever was You know was helping to get that water back out into the atmosphere Everybody's got a version of that So you're gonna have you know you're gonna have that you know these wild swings You know between You know the the whole drought flood cycle You know you now because you've lost the buffer and the landscapes that that that mob the extremes I mean, you know judith is in on this, uh, you know, it's is Hopefully I mean judith's written a whole book about you know Yeah, judith's written a whole book about this you know the stuff when you know She's someone who would who could talk at length about this but You know that it's it's like how do you solve that problem? and and And I think you know Especially when we when we get to talking about the issue, you know the issue of climate change I mean, you know if you want to look at the two You know two of the the big drivers of of wetting and sort of uh, you know the the the the the weirding of weather Is um, I mean the the two of the more significant greenhouse gases would be Um, not only carbon and carbon gets all the press, but it's water vapor. It's water Right. So what in water has a massive, you know has massive heat capacitance massive thermal capacitance I mean this could also explain why you know the the increase in the in the severity and the power of the storms that are happening In various parts of the globe is is it just simply more water? So, you know more water up here And and it's and and the way that it would you would have that Sort of transaction between the the atmosphere is completely interrupted because what would send the water back out into the atmosphere Is no longer in the landscapes And so you got to put the stuff back, right? Yeah. Yes, you know, you get exactly you don't have you don't have the condensation surfaces So the the evaporation Condensation cycles are all screwed up and and you know, we have to remember that there's a massive amount of heat transfer As you go from, you know between evaporation and condensation, right massive amount Huge, you know, and again in addition to the albedo effects of having that, you know that green You know the color green as opposed to The light color that you have from exposed Light soil where the light just gets bounced right back out You know to into the atmosphere, so it's just it's just all of these all of these things that sort of um You know, they collude to you know to create the you know, the situation that we now currently have and I think One other point about um, what happens with those those dynamics that we saw Um, those factors that that that Jared diamond mentioned is you know, the removal of uh, uh, vegetation uh, and deforestation And the soil problems and the water management problems. I think what's really fascinating about that especially with regard to carbon is um You know, let's name what are the three largest? carbon storages on the planet oceans The great plains is a big one Right We have oceans this generally speaking. Yeah Grasslands, maybe So I see everybody so I just yeah, so I just see people are Are putting it into the into the chat. Yeah, so just so it's gonna be oceans Soils soil everywhere And vegetation in that order, right? And then and then the difference between the ratio of The amount of carbon that's stored between all of those is is pretty significant. I mean, so soils Soils store something on the order of three times the amount of carbon that That vegetation does and then and then the oceans, you know are you know markedly A larger proportion than the other two now. What's interesting is you've just lost two For the price of one The moment you you get vegetation is you basically you've lost the vegetation as a carbon storage and then you increasingly lose the soils as a source of carbon storage right because Creates the soils is gone And so now all so now all of the carbon goes to the oceans which would explain while they're Acidifying. Yeah. Yeah. So again, it's it's all I mean you can't look at any of these things in You know in isolation because they're all intimately connected. You know, it's a it's a body It's a you know, it's a terrestrial body. Basically. That's what I that's what I liken it to and so you you have to put the You basically I mean part of what we're doing or what we're proposing to do in this whole Ecosystem restoration camp thing is you have to train people to put the organs back Right, right. You have to reconstitute the body right in order to in order to set things right Yeah, so if you so if you so if you don't do that, I mean you can't fake that Yeah, you know what I mean like you can't Like you have to do that. Yeah, so if you don't do it You know everything that depends on the body's Vitality and its health is is immortal danger. Right That's our ultimate holistic context together, right is No, exactly this body of earth. Yeah so So in spain we've got this camp That's that's working on restoring this five hectares But that's of course interconnected with all the lands that the chico de guzman family owns and all the Potential inspirational effect in the region that that can have So let's get into what is happening on that particular five hectares in spain And what are the what's happening there? What's what's been there? What's what's what are the hopes there? What are we moving towards? Okay, so so initially when when the when the project was was proposed Um, we wanted to to pull people in Eventually when we realized we had we had an actual site and it was going to happen Oh, we just tried to get You know all the people that we knew that could provide some kind of useful So immediately, you know, one of the first people out of was to get, you know, dan halsey involved because um You know, he's he's a, you know, he's a great designer. I mean, I think, you know, quite a few people I would think have have been able to seize summer um One of the there and there were folks in spain also that I thought would be great. I think in particular in particular, um Sus Ruiz uh from a company called linear clave and he Uh, not only permaculture, but also my design work Uh, I thought he would be perfect to get involved and then there and then obviously there there are other people that are connected to You know our mutual networks And so we just wanted to get something down on paper That would give us a decent physical layout something that made sense given the you know given the circumstances and then um, and then a sensible work plan um to provide a mainframe design and um And of course that you know that requires you know a certain amount of Funding to be able to bring in, you know, the equipment or the people with the know-how that could then do the the onsite work At least the initial mainframe onsite work So there were earth movers that were eventually brought in to try to you know, put in some of the features like You know swales. There were some dams that had been built onsite um To at least take advantage of whatever water would show up You know we have some means of storage I think the the the other part that had to be taken into consideration Was the degree to which the decompaction onsite had to um had to be dealt with and and that's something that we really didn't um We really didn't get an opportunity to to to see up close and personal until A couple of us went down in the fall And we were able to see some of the um Some of the portions of the you know the the you know the worksite that had Some features that were dug in I think they were they were meant to be uh uh Water storage or infiltration features and they just seemed like they were Just kind of holes that were dug with a the bucket of a you know a backhoe or something or an excavator And it wasn't until I had a chance to you know to go Look at the profile in the hole that you could see the degree of compaction um, which was simply a consequence of running heavy equipment and Planting, you know planting the grain crops. So you could see probably from about maybe 35 30 or 35 centimeters down to Well, at least the hole went down probably centimeters Um, uh, I mean everything was just closed You know super closed and you can also see the areas Where there are lots of clumpy You know sort of clumpy, uh, uh, just clods clods Rameez I think we lost Rameez The soil Rameez you're back. Yeah, I'm back. Okay. Good. You were frozen. Yes. Did you know that you were frozen? No, I didn't okay. Yeah, you were at the word clawed So just say claw And then it just stopped. Yeah, okay, that's cool. All right. So yeah, as you can see that they were you know on the surface if they did run Back there you are Come back back. You're back. Oh, we're good. Okay. Good. All right. So where's it? So clods right clods So basically that's a clods. Yeah. Yeah. Okay clods Okay, so the you know the the clods thing was was really um You know between the clods that we saw on the surface, you know Once you start doing some of the work and then what we could see from the compaction You know once you get below ground, I mean it became very clear that you know We needed to use something along the lines of a key line cloud or a subsoiler To to break up as much of the compaction compaction as we possibly could Um before we were really able to do anything um, that would have any real lasting effects and again because of where we're working Time was of the essence because I mean by by the time we had seen Uh, some of that some of some of you know, what what we saw happening on site We knew that we were well into the part of the year where we're likely to see rain So since we only have you know 250 meters if we're fortunate to work with we had to You know, we had to to to really scramble to try to try to catch this catch can't so fortunately You know in that area there there were folks who had some of the equipment that we needed Alfonso happened to have a use of a You know of a of a ripper that I think went down to about I think down to 70 70 centimeters Which is pretty was pretty good. Yeah Yeah, and then um, you also had a tiller that that would uh, that went down to about 20 centimeters I'm not sure whether or not they ran the tiller because ideally You know, you you could you could run the the you know, you could run the the ripper and then the tiller to prepare Um, say the laying down of the compost, which was also something that was purchased And then yeah, I know there was two lengths of ripper. They did the shorter one of them At the 70 second one. Yeah, and then I'm not sure that was when I was there, but I they might have done Something with the seating. I don't remember if that happened Well, they eventually I know they you know, they went out and got I believe it was 30 tons Of compost and it was a locally made compost and there had always been a concern about being able to get access to a half We'd use the quality compost at the very least um something that could bias Uh an increase in organic matter, which would allow for, you know, improved water holder capacity But we didn't want to necessarily end up dosing the place with heavy metals. For example, you know, which is of course a problem that um can can come from uh Using say a municipally made compost. Um, especially if it's using like, you know, sludge or something like that. So, um You know, we and again, all of this is happening as we're racing against um, you know the possibility of missing The you know the the window of time that we knew we would likely be able to get access to some rain So it was just a matter of being able to just make some relatively quick decisions Fortunately, we had you know, some of the funds that that allowed for That work to be done and you know credit to the the folks that were on site I mean, I you know, we were steadily, you know throwing a lot of information at them And um, and I think you know, all things considered they did a great job of of actually You know putting putting that information to use so we were able to identify um a place that That that had, you know, some decent cover crop Seeds a good, you know a good kind of local variety that could be used. Um, we know that uh You know some of the volunteers were able to do some work with with researchers from the university of morphea That had access to mycorrhizal fungi Yeah, that was great. Me and cheek actually got to go down and meet her and talk with her. That was really cool So they go prop props props Tim. Yeah, and also the desert truffle too, which is pretty cool thing. Yeah, right Right ecto mycorrhizal. Yeah, right exact ecto mycorrhizal funds. And I think that that whole that's a whole Discussion on its own is is you know, the use of of those types of materials and And the integration of of those types of biological elements to to help, you know drive drive the process of remediation, so we you know, we would Obviously, you know, all of this stuff has has been happening without the benefit of Of necessarily doing any formal training with with folks on site And I think this was you know, this has been I think one of the challenges of initiating You know, this kind of project is the the sequence of events that would eventually lead to You know being able to do the work necessary and I think at that point that the the um the Priority was doing anything we could to just take advantage of of you know, the the access to water um that would then be able to initiate the the The reestablishment of vegetation on site. So that so that was um I mean, it was a bit. It was a little bit of like trial by fire really and I thought that it was great I think again, everybody handled it brilliantly. Um, you know folks folks, you know, we got down and you know um, you know people started making indigenous microorganisms effective microorganisms they you know, they um Were able to get folks making, you know, some some thermophilic compost on site to in the hopes of eventually doing some sort of aerated compost teas uh and and I think one of the benefits of of really being challenged in that respect of not having The ideal situation is is I think you really find out who really is down to do the work necessary to um You know to get this kind of work going right and if and if folks and if folks are able to stick Around when things aren't perfect then I then you know, that's a pretty good indication of of who is really You know about it as we say, you know You know the states that you really do have you really do have people that are You know, they they they really want to do this and they're really serious and and And they're not afraid to get their hands dirty and they're not afraid to make a few mistakes You know that in in in the course of of trying to learn and I think that's that's an important part of you know What of what's been happening here? So? um Well, what else happened? Okay. Well one of the other really important things that that had um That we were able to get accomplished was we had someone uh step up and do uh provide us with um some soil analysis services and um, we were able to get You know a really You know decent idea as to the the sampling Of the initial conditions of you know certain portions of the site And um, I know I'm going to get his name wrong, but his name is uh, it's a French gentleman named Francis Francis bouquet I guess that's his name And um, he had let's see if I can pull up this this first Analysis that he had given to us Um he uh, no that's not it So he was he was able to give us an idea as to you know the the um You know the percentage of soil organic matter we had um the deficiencies, you know in terms of the nutrient the the nutrient deficiencies on site um pH of course uh I'm not sure if we really had any ideas to what types of biological activity we had but um You know we were able to get uh a really great initial um idea Of what it was that specifically needed to be done to remediate Um, you know the the soils on site to get them to the point to where okay now now we're cooking with gas so to speak so, um I think most of most of what we were able to see in terms of the you know the deficiencies and the You know and the and the conditions that that that are You know current there is again, it's consistent with what you would likely see in areas that have uh been under That type of regime of management in in agricultural production Over an extended period of time. Yeah, so You know it wasn't it wasn't I don't think it was anything that we you know, we weren't expecting I mean funnily enough there there was actually probably a little bit more in the way of soil organic matter than I than I had anticipated But it was you know was probably you know somewhere in the area of One in one one and a half percent um in some places maybe a little more Um a little less than than than two percent, which was which which actually quite surprising And pH wise, you know the the soils are as expected, you know quite alkaline So they're probably anyway anywhere from um 7.9 to probably eight and a half And um and so again depending on the You know the we I don't think we got any um numbers for like cation exchange capacity or Anything like that, but um You know that that's though. That's the kind of information that we you know We ultimately would like to keep track of you know, so friability of the soils permeability infiltration rate, you know for water Right, um, you know, uh, you know all all of those things Um are going to be really important for us to keep track of so that we you know, we understand what we're doing And we can we can you know, we can get some understanding as to what are the more effective um remedies And and turning and changing things and all of that so we can plant perennial living things that will grow grow over time and become a whole system, right? Right. No, exactly. And I think that that's that's also another part of of what it was that we were um that had been put together initially was was You know a list of species Yeah, um that are of course appropriate for You know the situation and the circumstances, but also better appropriate for the place, right? So You know, obviously initially in a lot of the um You know and in a lot of the areas that are especially, you know, they suffer from uh Being in a semi arid or an arid climate Um and a heavily degraded site you you need um typically drought tolerant And also salt tolerant varieties um, and then if you're in an area that is uh, you know fire prone um, you you also want something that is is um, you know fire tolerant or can can um You know help to uh Reduce the possibility that you you know, you can have a have a problem with that That's going to be part of the initial recipe to be put into place, but So, you know, you know, we've talked about, you know, hardy pioneer species Many of them are going to probably be leguminous um Uh, ideally we could eventually get to varieties that are um um endemic You know to the area, I mean it'd be great to be able to reestablish oaks You know the type, you know the types of varieties with the oaks and and and whatever guild is goes along with that but um You know one one of the other really critical uh issues here um Is is you know one of the constraints we have for this site and in la juanquiera is that uh due to certain regulations and uh Stipulations with regard to land use You you you have to plant certain varieties that have some sort of economic um Benefit, you know, they they they can you know, they have some way of contributing to the local economy, which makes all the sense in the world um So, you know, it's just a matter of being able to find the right balance between Something that provides the ecological function that would be ideal and then something that also could be used to bolster um The local economy so people can actually make a living um and and those things aren't necessary Say it again. I don't think acorns are on the list yet. Are they? I'm not that I know of but I could be I could be wrong, but I but you know, it's it's um You know, I think that's that's part of the you know the dance And trying to figure these things out is you have to understand and I mean those those two things aren't necessarily working across purposes Right. I mean they're not they're not necessarily mutually exclusive, right that you know, it's it's either You know something that benefits You know the the local ecologies or it's something that actually creates some sort of economic return Right, uh, is that they they both have to That they they both need to be one in the same Yeah, um, and and I think it's that kind of you know, really simplified linear Reductionist thinking That has created this situation that we're currently faced with In the first place right totally and I know they're talking about too like some aromatics and stuff Like they're actively thinking about what not just to tick off things off the list to get things that are economically relevant But how can we bring things in that? Can become a part of a generative economic system and create more restoration, right? So yeah, absolutely. I mean I mean this is where um You know having an organization like common land be involved Is is so um It's so important Because I think common common land's been able to You know to it's been able to create a model that allows for conceptualizing You know some of the frameworks and some of the the templates That would need to be um made available to people so they can make smart choices Of of how to be able to hit all of the targets now if you know for those who aren't familiar with with common land This is the You know, this is their website and they have this whole concept of the four returns Right return of inspiration return of social capital return of natural capital return of financial capital And And within those four returns you have what they've called What they've turned three zones you have a again a natural zone a combined zone And an economic zone and under each of those zones you have investment and then the anticipated returns and and being able to explicitly identify All of these these different areas And these different targets that you're trying to to hit When putting together a plan That's focused on ecological restoration. You know, it's not only a matter of of Of being concerned with that you also it also has some kind of sense to Especially low like local economies You know, it has to make some sense to The people who are going to be directly impacted by whatever work is being done um on the land that they occupy And and in many ways a lot of what's being discussed here Is is really about the reestablishment of local economies as opposed to having people be um dominated by the dynamics that are connected to global economies, right? And I which large, you know Yeah, which is important for the resilience of these landscapes that we restore, right? If it's if it's just a nice, I mean If that this balance between wildlife and economy And that whole thing it's like if we don't find something that society accepts Then it might get clear just like it did 500 years ago, right? Right. No, it's absolutely. I mean one of the people I've you know, I've often Quoted and And at least trying to communicate You know, what which what what is what we're trying to achieve, you know Actually, and maybe I guess philosophically is is wendell barry and I think you know, wendell barry is is talked You know, I think he's really done a great Like a really powerful Job of communicating exactly what it is that's wrong About the types of economies that have dictated How how land is used how resources are used how people are used Or misused Um, you know, he's he's really been able to take that in a in a very clear in a very powerful way And I think specifically, you know the point he makes about, you know, if if you're if we're concerned about land use You know, then you're really looking at What is essentially an economic problem? right because land is The basis For any and every local economy. I mean, you know, and also every international economy is there's this ever increasing Race to try to find newer And and and more unspoiled Sources of of natural resources Um, that is able to provide the the ability to generate wealth so in order to Ultimately address the problem of land abuse Or land degradation You have to address the The basis upon which the economy for that place Um, you have to you have to address the basis of of of the economy and how it rent and how it runs So if the if you know if the if the basis of the economy is sound then The the state of the resource base will be sound right and if and if the basis of the economy is unsound Then you'll find that You know, your your resource base is going to reflect that right Um, I know we'll probably have a more dedicated Q&A time later, but Angela's Kind of popping with questions on this issue. Um, so maybe we'll just let her yeah Maybe it's probably a good idea to get people involved in this. So yeah, it's a rather than hear me rather than hear me babble Oh, no, your babbling is fantastic. Um But she asks so Do you have any restoration project ideas that are exclusively for nature wildlife, etc? Is it always going to be about economic return? Um So there's a lot in that I guess but like I know I know Alfonso, you know in my musicology interview with him He talked about a desire to reintroduce wildlife at some point and that's a Indicator for its own sake and then possibly in the future. Maybe she's getting at like Does this have a point where we I or is there currently any Focus on just wildlife that kind of adds to the whole mosaic and then where we're moving in the future, you know So this whole economic return thing is that a permanent I don't know. Yeah, you see her question Well, well again, it's you know, I don't think it's necessarily a matter of either war So so what so one of the things I was I was just um like actually this is another point from from uh From james scott's book Is that you know from against the grain is he is he had talked about how You know human beings for millennia have have basically um been engaged in what he's called um niche construction Or you know the way I've thought about it is like habitat engineering So that you know the the point being is that if you if you create the habitat for wildlife To to to be able to exist Then it's like you you don't necessarily have to Reintroduce them You just have to sort of set that you just have to have you have to set the table Right be a great example of that Right, you know the first the first course I taught um was in detroit in the east side of detroit and um And you know detroit is detroit michigan and it's a which is a fascinating city I mean, it's it's more or less the place that the american middle class was created you know, um and You know heavily, you know the quintessential american industrial city And as the nature of you know labor Has changed in the way that you know, we you know things are are manufactured and the way that labor is utilized to manufacture those things that again that the the the city has sort of has changed and has changed dramatically because The things that had initially brought people to the city aren't necessarily there anymore They've kind of moved elsewhere and those people that were capable of being able to go to where the work was They they went and the people that weren't have have been Have remained in the city Which there's a and the dynamics behind that are a lot more complicated I'm not just going to get into that but the effect thereof is that you've had As the as the the city has depopulated. Oh, you know probably since the 50s or 60s, I mean in truth um That increasingly more portions of the city has has basically returned to a type of urban prairie and and so One of the things that I was really taken aback by was how many pheasants I saw Well, I'm the Detroit like well these pheasants here really, you know, yeah I was all over the like wow all these families just Detroit. It was the most city No, there were pheasants all over the place and I think and you know, I think the other one of the other things that I was really amazed by was how Just I mean you go into neighborhoods. They're probably 40 years ago. There'd be houses I mean like all the streets a lot of houses and like and then you know, you go there and 2010 or 2015 or 2018 And increasingly more of the city is just basically empty like the houses have been cleared And then the and then the lots that have that used to have houses have just gone back to Like it's been overgrown, right? You know the trees are going over and and so, you know, you you hear about, you know, there's more deer or there's more, you know There's more. Um, I mean I believe during the time that I was there someone reported seeing a beaver A beaver in Detroit in Detroit for the first time for the first time in uh It was 75 years It was the first beaver they saw in 75 years. Wow, that's huge, right? So So, you know, so I think what that seemed to indicate to me Was that if the have if the habitat is there The animals find it Right. I mean, Detroit apparently is also, um There was there was something, um There was something written about how Detroit is The metro area has like the most wild bees Because there are all of these urban api areas That are popping up So you can buy like really good honey like wild honey from From Detroit because again, there's all of this really great bee habitat so You know, the the the job the job that we need to be doing Is basically recreating or reestablishing the habitat that will allow for you know the you know, the the you know, the wild animals of of Of all varieties to be able to live Right because the reason you don't see them anymore because they don't have any place to live Right, you know, they go they got to go they Huh said again or food. Yeah. Yeah, there's no there's no food for them. So they they're going to go to where they can actually exist i.e You you tend to exist in places that you're able to Find food or whatever it is that you need to support your ability to live And if those things aren't where you are you go somewhere else, right? So I think so that's that's I think in large part a lot of what we're doing Um as designers if we're effective is we are creating habitat, right, right? We are we are constructing niches Yeah, right. We are we are providing this we're providing the setting Or creating or creating the circumstances for The ability to create or generate some kind of yield that includes having Any and all possible Ecosystem or ecological elements that would help to sustain and improve You know the ecological functioning which produces a yield in both products and services, right? You know in terms of you know the ecological variety including including remnant Animals from that. We just like we're trying to bring in relevant plants You know eventually that'll that'll come in once they have a place, right? Totally so so you have so so when talking about And using the term niche construction. I think it's a very It's a very precise term because when you're talking about niche construction You are making a space. You are creating a place For that thing, right? You're creating a you're creating a space or a place Yeah, in terms of the physical space, but also in in terms of the temporal space in terms of time Right, so you're you're engineering or designing space and time for various Ecological or ecosystemic elements and then in being able to include them It improves or increases the the functional stability and vitality and integrity Of you know of a of a given landscape, right? Yeah, and you know, I guess the fact that the wildlife will come back also entails that there's some remnant Ecology in the area for that they're not extinct, you know um, and so it preserving just to kind of continue on her question for just a second angeles preserving, you know, wild habitat is a key part of As we were storing degraded systems giving them a place to grow back into so it's all really one one picture, right? I mean this whole yeah, I mean I In my mind, you know, I can't think of any of these things in Compartment in compartments anymore because you realize that, you know, none of this stuff happens in isolation, right? so So you have to be able to think about this It as a um as a connected whole, right, right? So so so really What all you are as a designer is you're a facilitator, right? Like you're not you're not controlling anything Like really what you're doing is it's like you're opening the door For all of this other stuff to come in and you're just creating a place at the table For as many different guests as possible. Yeah, so you just so you're just a host And you and you're like you're a matchmaker, right? And you and and you and you're creating opportunities for as many different Partners as possible, right to meet up Right, and so the the better you are as a designer the better or the better you are as someone who is able to You know understand how this whole thing is is how it runs and how it operates the more connections You're able to make the better the outcome, right? You're able to make as many different as as many beneficial connections As possible within a given arrangement within a given space, right? I like that set the table You know tablecloth plates and then the food Right, just like bottom up with the start with the soil, you know, and then it'll that's it Start the bank it up No, and there and there you go. I mean that and and that's why the you know the the soil part of the discussion is so Critically important because that's where it all happens Right because so if you if you don't if if the integrity of the functional integrity of soil Is not insured you can't do anything and even in talking about and even in talking about the functional integrity of soil ultimately what you're talking about is You you inevitably come back to water Right like it all like it all starts with water And and that may not only water but there's also, you know, it also comes between water and air So so really what you're trying to design is is the Is the integration is the establishment of that cycling and that ability to store water and air Which then opens the door to all of the other elements it opens the door to the vegetative elements It opens the door to the to the biological elements that cycles all the nutrients That that provides the basis for all of the biogeochemical cycles to occur Which then which then is able to produce the types of yields um That leads to everything else Right. Yeah um Great, uh We're gonna get a little bit back to angel in a minute because she's got another vein of questions that would be really maybe fun to get into Especially with judith here, uh about veganism, but um, let's go to harry for a second. Um He's got questions about refugee Yeah, oh, yeah So could could uh ecosystem restoration can't be set up in a refugee camp To train says harry to train the people who are directly feeling the consequences of land degradation Uh Give them hope in a new worldview. He says I recently watched a new documentary called it will be green again Which is about a refugee camp in cameroon watching that Amy think about setting ecosystem restoration camps in refugee camps Uh, what do you have to say about that? We're talking about displaced populations human and others And refugee situation is of course a part of that, you know, this whole cycle of cities and Collapse, you know Yeah, I mean, well, I think what's interesting about You know about that particular situation is, you know, a lot of most of the places that I work in are You know, again, they're in areas that are arid a semi arid um And many of those places are in a part of the world that is marked by quite a bit of conflict So, um, I'm talking about like north africa. So, you know, for example, I've been, you know, I've taught in tunisia, morocco I've done work in western sahara western sahara is technically home to the longest running conflict of the continent of africa since 1975 You know, um, funnily enough this has some connection to spain I mean, it's the portion of You know, northwest africa that had been Formally annexed by spain and then eventually they they left in 75 and then morotanian and morocco kind of rushed in and then that led to a conflict that is now Still happening technically um of, you know, taught in, you know, uh West bank, you know, palestine israel taught in, um, you know, a done work in afghanistan pakistan um Egypt oman, yemen You know, and then, you know, jordan and i think jordan in particular is is is interesting in that um, the area where That the greening the desert two project is in the is in the jordan for the valley the dead sea valley Which if you if you go from the site in el jofa in joocity and you travel north up to The zaatari Refugee camp, which is where basically everybody um, that's running from the conflict in syria Is being um, or quite a few people that that have been running from the conflict in syria. That's where they're being Accommodated We've actually had some some pri folks do work in the zaatari refugee camp Uh, you're in the area in zaatari I mean, i'm sorry not zaatari in um in el jofa um and in the You know in in the jordan valley actively a refugee area of people that had had fled from um, you know from what from israel palestine Probably either either for around the time of the 67 Or the oh actually no well some people have been been there since 48 But um, I think most recently 60, you know, I have a 67 or 73 So these are folks that have been trying to more or less kind of remake their lives um in a really um Area really challenging setting. So i mean jordan is easily one of the most water stressed countries in the world uh, certainly in the middle east, but you know, um It's a you know, how do you how do you make how do you make a life in a in a place that? um, doesn't have a great deal of water or arable land and um and a lot of what we've been trying to model Uh, you know at that site in the valley is is precisely how to do that now It's taken about it's taken jeff and adi about Almost 20 years to formally get the jordan government To to actually take up Some of what is being demonstrated on that site and then do something by way of government to take it to a wider um population of people now they just issued a tender for a permaculture project to be established elsewhere in the jordan valley that can then be used as a model for um, you know agricultural business owners and other people who make their living from the land um It's tried to demonstrate ways that that permaculture design ideas or regenerative um agricultural ideas Could could then be put to use by locals and that would include, you know refugee populations um I've had you know, I've worked in uh You know Somali land And you know the situation that is um, you know, that's been The folks have had to to deal with on the the Uh in the Horn of Africa, you know probably since the late 70s Is certainly part of that whole You know, what can we do for you know for people that are you know that are having to Deal in either conflict zones or formal conflict zones or places where you know, there's chronic famine or chronic drought You know that that would you know, that's also a place where you find quite a bit of interest in this Because people can see the usefulness of many of the ideas that are being offered, um, you know by by permaculture by systems like permaculture, which in many cases Is is just sort of a re It's just another presentation of Things that maybe their their folks had done a long time ago And and that they've just big that just become um Estranged from because they've they've tried to become more modern or more technical in in the way that they go about doing their agriculture. I mean It's a really quick story. Um I've talked two courses um in in Hadremote in uh in yemen um Talked one in late 2011 early 2012 and then uh the last course was during the fall of 2013 And during one of the courses um, I think was the first course We were talking about um food forests, you know the whole concept of the food forest and The first cohort of students we had were agricultural engineers And farmers from you know from the wadi from wadi hadremote And one of the the head ag engineers brought a a book a book of translated south arabian poetry and And the reason why people the book was because it had poems That would talk about what used to be plant landscapes You know in in that region and that in a way the uh, you know the poetry was a way of being able to provide a reference the kinds of things that could be used um and maybe a recreation of Some of these old systems and I think this is a way in about Being able to address the whole problem of the challenge of refugees and and how to Help them is in a way. It's it. This is this is almost a a means for them to become reacquainted With what is really that their historical or their cultural heritage? These are the um, you know their history as a people attached to land, you know And I've had several people talking about that example. I've had lots of people tell me that You know, well, we used to do that You know, we used to do that at one point and I was like, well, you know, do you do it anymore? He's like not so much you know, so in a way You know, you can you can tell the condition of a people or get some some indication as to the condition of a people In relation to the condition by looking at the condition of the landscapes And that there is a there is a You know, there is a symmetry there You know that they do sort of reflect one another and that when they become estranged from one another You know, you'll see that reflected in there in their situation or their circumstances and vice versa, you know And you know, so for better or for worse and I think that is very much attached to addressing Like ultimately addressing the problem of, you know, refugee populations is you have to provide them a place a physical location that they're able to um You know that they're able to kind of claim for themselves and make a life for themselves Independent of anybody else, you know independent of you know of having to be dependent On on other people to provide them with things that they're perfectly capable of providing themselves If they're you know, if they're given an opportunity to do so and and they're supported in doing so. Yeah Yeah, beautiful. Um I think it'd be fun. Let's dive into maybe uh, angela's question I want to try something new here. Um, judith, uh, would you be willing to Possibly join I could make you a panelist for a minute. Um, answer angela's question with rameez I'll be rameez. You're you're Yeah, I'm yeah, I'm here. I'm just I'm just trying to get a lamp. That's all it's it's a bit dark in here Okay We're gonna try something new here Okay So we now have Rameez your your echoes Your echoes your echoes really bad And then let's introduce after you get your echo Uh Sorry, dude. I was I was thinking like guitar effects or something like that like It was beautiful. We had the Let's introduce judas. You want to introduce judas swartz here and then we'll uh, then we'll field, um, angela's question about veganism You want to introduce? I know you you know her before too and Oh, it's on me. Yeah, judas. Well judas is uh, is now a temporary panelist And I know you you sort of lit up. You have some relation with it. You want to go ahead and introduce judas and yeah, I mean judas is is um um Wonderful journalist. Um, she's written You know some some, um, I think some really important books on You know that deal with a lot of what we've been discussed discussing. I mean one of them Uh, let me see if I could find some of the some of her book titles I'm gonna do a plug for you there judas. Okay, if you don't mind Hey out of mind So, um Yeah, you let let me brag about you. Oh, hey all good. Yeah, so she so she's she's written, um cow saved the planet and And other hold on I gotta get the whole title up. I don't I don't want to short you here There's a lot more to it than that Yeah, I don't want I don't want to shorter. Yeah cow saved the planet and other improbable ways of restoring soil to To heal the earth and the other one is um water in plain sight Hope for a thirsty world And um, and I think she's you know, I think as a being a journalist You know who's who's taken an interest in in these topics Um, she's been able to use I think some really compelling language To communicate the importance of of these issues and hopefully that will you know Pull more people in to become more involved or at least aware Of of these issues. So I mean, I've I've you know, I've been um privileged enough to to be able to be introduced to her and become familiar with some of her work and hopefully more people Will will be able to do so. Yeah, and hi, jenith. It's our first time meeting. It's good to meet you. Yeah Wonderful to meet you. Yeah. Is there anything before we dive into this question anything else you'd like to say to introduce yourself? Oh goodness. Um, well, I don't know where everybody else is, but I'm here in bennington vermont so Where it's spring Okay, and we're there's plenty of water. I mean really Right. Yeah, I'm next to a creek here in oregon. So I I feel you So angela's question, um How does rameez or jenith or how do we feel about she says veganism as the way of the future? Um, she talks about how we haven't had this population of humans that we've had Um, and that millions of people including herself are moving towards veganism Um, and that it might not have as much credibility. Um This whole issue. So we're talking about how we eat how we live What lives on the land? Can you guys speak or jenith? Maybe you want to start uh, or be the one sure. Yeah Um, well, you know a few things. I mean, I would say that in many landscapes you really You know for the landscape to really thrive you do need animals on the land And to be integrated and to be managed properly um And I can't really speak to health implications But I do know a lot of people that feel that certainly for for many people Having some animal products in your diet are important, but I think one thing that often gets lost um, sometimes I I think that um The the move towards or like the campaign for veganism is it itself a symptom of our disconnection From the land and I think people often want to do something Positive environmentally and that just seems like something that is you know, we've got You know looked at simplistically It seems like that is more benign for the environment But what we don't talk about is the ecological cost of You know clearing land for soybeans or clear, you know every time A a field is plowed then you've made lots and lots of species homeless And I mean, you know, I don't know if Probably isn't where you were going with this question, but the thought of food created in labs Scares the heck out of me. Hmm. So anyway, those are a few thoughts We can get into all of it. This is a deep dive. So there's no there's no rules Ravi, do you have anything to add to that you want to unmute yourself? Yeah, I mean, I you know, I this is a well funnily enough This is an issue that that that bill talks about in the designers manual um, you know, he discussed this back in Okay, so I've got the second first the second edition. So this is published in 1988 And one of the things paraphrasing that he mentions in um In the book is he said look there's nothing wrong with veganism Right or vegetarianism If you are producing your own food Because this is a bit of a false issue. It's a red herring whether or not you eat meat And the issue isn't the issue should not be You know the the ecological benefits of whether or not you eat meat really what it comes down to is whether or not Whatever food that you are consuming Is is either something that you are producing yourself Right, or if you're purchasing it You you have an understanding of how that food has been produced And that it hasn't been produced Or provided in a way that is that is destructive Because if it's because if for example, if you're a vegetarian and you're a vegan and you're not producing any of your food One of the things you have to realize is the the way in which most land Historically has been destroyed Has been through agriculture as as a historical matter So even if you look let me see if I can pull up this graphic if you look at um Yeah, this is this is a graphic from uh One of the un agencies I want to say that it's either the unep or um Yeah, well, I can't remember which one but it's basically it provides a graphic for the um What has produced most of the land degradation in various parts of the globe so here's So here's the um Yeah, so here's the graphic. Let me know when you guys see it There it is. Yeah, I see it Okay, so you can see that it's it's been arranged according to continent. Okay so um So you can see here north america the vast majority of the Of the soil degradation that has been produced in north america has been by way of agriculture even if you look at um at at land use And then again the effects of the ways that the land has been managed in the pursuit of that particular activity um This amazing graphic. Um, yeah, here it is of of what it what it what's shown is the uh Hold on is this it hold on Yeah, it's it basically shows the the all of the tributaries of the waterways that lead to the Gulf of mexico and have basically Contributed to the creation of a dead zone In the gulf where essentially, you know, you have these massive areas of hypoxia that that caused this enormous area of Basically aquatic the death of aquatic life Because all of the fertilizer and the excess nutrient that ends up, you know, going into the water that produces eutrophication and then eventually produces um This produces um these um oxygen starved areas to where basically nothing can live now, um Many of these these places that have experienced problems with um, you know deforestation um, you know in the clearing of land has not only been for the sake of say making grazing areas for domesticated livestock but um, you know, many many of these places have been cleared Um to just create more cropland In many cases if you look in the in the states, I mean a lot of that a lot of those crops are going to be things like corn and soy Um, obviously, you know, there's wheat. There's you know, there's rice. There's barley and oats and soybeans You know all of those those crops which um Are commodified grains Some of those things are being used and you know various, you know, vegetarian or vegan food products You know because there's you know, people realize there's a market there but um The problem is ultimately one of whether or not we are we ourselves are responsible for the for the food that we consume Do we we actually produce the products? That are used to support the lives that we live and if you live in a Western, uh, if you live in a modern, um consumer-based industrial economy Uh, you know the no matter whether you're a vegan or a meat eater You're not you're not producing the food that you eat, right? You're buying it and and You are buying or you're purchasing these things based on your position on the You know on the on the consumer food chain some of us happen to be You know buying higher up on that food chain and others But it still produces. Um, what one would characterize that as a detrimental effect You know, uh, ecologically speaking the the other part of this I want to point out is the the energy cost of Uh, you know of the food that is produced um in in industrial, um Uh economies industrial consumer economies. There's a there's an article. I remember seeing and this is probably going back five years Um, it had been written by a guy named, uh, dr. Eric Garza And it was called the energy cost of food. I'm trying to find the the the piece right now And basically what he had, um, what he had found You know until I find I'll just end up talking like this what he had found was that for every calorie of food That's produced in the industrialized world um That it took somewhere in the area of 15 to 20 calories of energy to provide that one calorie of food so that would include the actual um The actual cultivation And the and the growing and the harvesting of that crop The processing of the crop the packaging of the crop Storage Right the the you know the the transportation and the and the actual um, you know provisioning of that crop in in some sort of uh, retail uh, uh outlet And I don't even think they actually included the the, um The disposal Right the energy involved in the and the disposal of whatever comes from the consumption of that product Like there's the problem is that instead of existing in the world as a producer And as being responsible for whatever it is that we consume We exist in the world as consumers and until we produce the things we consume Then this is going to continue to be a problem So this red herring as to whether or not, you know, we're meat-eaters Is it it completely skirts the issue as to whether or not we are actually Responsible for what it is that we live. I mean what it is that we use In the course of our living And and existing in the world Right now obviously, you know, there's the whole idea, you know, there's the whole problem of you know Uh feed lots and you know confined animal feeding operation and all those things. I mean that's a no-brainer. Of course that stuff is is awful But you know, it this there's still this issue of of um, you know, of Consuming food that we don't produce The one, you know, just one last reference here this and this is particularly important for Say the folks that live in california. This is particularly relevant So I just I this this article just happened to pop up Here you see it You see, yeah, yeah, yeah Right, so this california couple uses more water than all of the homes in los angeles So these these people that the um, what's their name? the the resnicks um Yeah, the resnicks they've amassed uh America's second largest produce company, which is worth an estimated 4.2 billion dollars. They own millions of acres of land in california And in the irrigation of that land and this covers everything from, you know tree crops to vegetables um, they use a massive amount of water now The the methods that are used to produce those foods I mean we we need to be able to investigate we need we need to be able to sit down and you know find out the particulars of that but the the fact that It's it's using as much Uh as many resources in the production of that food that that's the issue that we have we got to sort out So it's you know, it's the method of production It's the it's the proximity that that the That though that the the produce is being provided whether or not you are in fact involved in the provisioning of what you consume And until we are until we become More responsible for those things And it's closer to us Right, we're going to continue to have this problem of you know the destruction Um involved in provisioning our lives Right. Yeah, that's we keep hearing that you know get in your as close you can to your backyard While we have Judith here, uh, we got a few more minutes But if it's okay with you two maybe we go a couple minutes over if anybody has to leave that's great, but Just maybe a few more minutes, but Something that uh that i've been looking into recently. I'd love to hear. I know judas thoughts on i've actually been curious about your take on it And I think it might tie in some elements of angela's question with wildlife And food and and meat eating and regenerative landscapes ecosystem restoration Um, I know you mentioned ramiz this idea of this dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico The mississippi rip, you know most of that was the great plains You know and we're dealing with anywhere from 30 to 60 million bison depending on who you're talking to um, and I know savory's getting into the uh the bison thing. I know I interviewed this wild idea buffalo ranch that patagonia is working with and you know, they're doing a lot to kind of let the buffalo Do their thing and it's such a complex interesting issue But it seems to encompass a lot of these ideas of wildlife how we feed ourselves how we restore land Judith you have something you could share about your thoughts on on bison in this because I know it's it adds other layers To the whole issue of ruminants on land and things. Uh, what what can you share about that initially? Yeah, um, I mean ecologically Culturally, um, it's a it's a great idea from what I understand I that bison are harder to manage than cattle um, but Yeah, it's certainly it's certain sense, you know, you're talking about the great plains and all the chemicals that are coming from all our agricultural landscapes I was just in Kansas for a week and wow, um Just all these things that It's been talking about We have these lands that are becoming biological deserts and then they've also become population deserts too so everything's out of whack as as as the production of our food becomes increasingly consolidated and connected to all of this is Just, you know, we haven't really talked about this but um, or often in these circles We don't talk about this but because I was in Kansas. It was like right in my face about the chemicals which are really Doing so much damage human populations to to plants to soils to Biodiversity and that was just mind-blowing to see the impacts of that Outside of Kansas the every other new building is a hospital or cancer center. I mean, it's insane I'm at people that are having horrible health problems that have been the industry So these are all overlapping um, I guess I've thrown out a lot of ideas, but it just to Oh another thing that um, someone who was there Talked about and this is also brought okay, Kansas We think about you know people there think that it's their job You know that they carry the mantle of feeding the world But they import 90 percent of their food so it's creating healthy ecosystems that provide livelihoods for people and To give people the opera people were at this event where I was were Flabbergasted to hear that um And there was a real desire to bring more food production home and not Have the system that we have now where people are growing industrially intensive way with lots of chemicals to grow Grains that are then sent over to China to be packaged and brought back over here as food Anyway, it's not it's not working and it's not providing many people with a meaningful livelihood because farmers are getting paid like six cents from the dollar for these commodity crops And um, yeah, there's got to be a better a better way right Well, thanks so much. Judith. I really appreciate a treat a surprise treat to have you on here And maybe another time we'll get a chance to have a interview proper with you too Or or I will with musicology or something, but it's really Thanks for being a sport and coming on at the last minute Okay, great Actually, actually tim, there's something that I wanted to follow up on what Judith was saying. I think you know There's some really great points that you can get you brought up So so um, you know the point about the and I just put up the graphic Um before with the the map. I don't know if you guys saw that um right here That that's the map I was trying to find and basically this is um This is a mapping the uh, say cities In relation to all of the the farms the agricultural Areas again mostly in the center of the u.s um, and then you and then there's actually another map that shows the the all of the tributaries the you know The rivers and streams that eventually lead to say the mississippi and then that lets out to The gulf of mexico and then the the size of the dead zone That is produced from all of those chemicals Running into the Into into the gulf and I think one of the things we have to we have to understand is um still the degree to which Energy is a is a critical part of Of of this whole regime so You know, so for example if we if we talk about where the what what provides the basis For the production of the chemicals. I mean most of like the most of the fertilizers, for example Come from natural gas And then of course all the petrochemicals are some derivative of petroleum Um, and then you have to remember that all of those products those formulations are somebody's intellectual property So people make money you can cause them to become dependent on those products in in producing something as critically essential as food So you could also see that in relation to the types of foods that are now relied upon So, you know, I mean this is the whole debate, of course with GMO's GMO's somebody owns that stuff somebody owns the organism Which means that in order for you to use it You know that someone has to pay a fee You know in terms to get, you know a license to utilize that product um I think in terms of the you know, what jude was saying about the the issue of You know illnesses that are coming from the use of a lot of these chemicals um one one there's one gentleman in particular that um uh I've really, you know benefit benefit from being able to to hear from a guy named dr tyrone haze Um, who is a researcher at uc berkeley. He he he had done research in um a widely used on a widely used herbicide called atrazine Which is sort of similar to Glyphosate, you know what you would use like roundup and it's often used in the cultivation of corn and one of the things that he found research Um, which he was doing um at the behest of uh, uh, originally, uh, sygenta sygenta was um, he found that uh In his in his research He had been experimenting with frogs a particular african frog To see the effects of exposure to what what a really micro doses of atrazine And and what it did to the frogs What he found was is that that the the chemicals basically acted as a Um as a as a powerful indica endocrine disruptor Basically like a phyto estrogen um Sudo, I'm sorry pseudo estrogen phyto estrogen pseudo estrogen um to where he had the males In his research cohort Start to develop eggs in their testicular tubes Eventually those males Ended up being able to produce offspring So he has male frogs that are grandmothers Right so this that and and one of the one of the problems and judas probably saw this And this is mentioned by a number of of researchers one of them in particular is a guy named don huber Is you have a serious problem with fertility in many places in in areas that have very heavy agricultural production In addition to the cancers. I mean that was another thing that he that that dr. Hayes found was that there was a direct connection Um, I think of the 13 most common cancers in the united states 12 of them Were directly tied to the use of atrazine or exposure to aphrodisiac Now here's now. Here's the moral hazard with that information that exists singenta Is a I think a subsidiary of the company novartis Novartis produces um medications that are used in combating The cancers that are connected to the use of aphrodisiac So So that's a problem So You know you As far as the company is concerned This is a situation that is actually Advantages for them Because although they a product that reduces the illness they also make a product that is used to treat the illness that their product causes and you can and you can See that repeated Um along a pretty broad spectrum of other products that you have very similar outcomes my insulin Yeah Yeah, so, you know it fine the the insulin is probably created by the same companies that um are producing the products that are creating Diabetes, yeah Yeah, I looked at my friend's label and it's we've all heard the name, but yeah, yeah Yeah, I'm not gonna I will do that to you. So anyway I mean, yeah, I mean so But this is but this is the issue and this and I think this goes back to what? Um to the point that james scott was making in his book, you know about the about About civilization Well, I'm not civil. Yeah, that that that the the creation of of the state of of a of a polity You know in in human history has been on the backs of Agriculture and agriculture is made possible through The domestication of again those four elements again. I think you'd extended the five people plants fire And animals And water Right, so if you have access to those things and you have the ability to control those things then you've got You know, you've got you you wield a great deal of power and influence and um wealth building capability and then that could be parlayed into You know political power economic power social power and influence and so um, you know that the ecology is no longer You know necessarily of particular importance because your ability to Find other ways to produce And maintain your hold on wealth is no longer solely resting in Land and people You know, it's like they're in other things it'd be so so the so even in in being able to produce again the The commodified crops are Are of value Such that they they become a proxy For for something else. They're a proxy for your ability to to get access to financial wealth Right, so there's a so embedded embedded in all of this stuff is a whole conversation about you know, you know Yeah capital and and and you know and and the different forms of capital and how that's You know parlayed into other you know into other things power to the ecosystem, right? That's what we're working on. Yeah So we we're get we we could keep going. This is awesome. I love chatting with you guys, but we we've a little bit over time And uh, I want to let everybody know that next month we have patrick verms From the world agroforestry center with us. So that's going to be amazing. Also, we're going to be uh talking about agroforestry And I think you want to address also intelligent and natural systems too. So uh, that's going to be a lot of fun. Hope to see you all back and uh Maybe youtube and chime in on the q&a or whatever and uh, let's have some more fun Thank you both so much. Is there any quick little closing that either one of you wants to share? Good Oh, just uh, just to let uh, everybody know, um, uh, the the erc's got a, uh Uh, uh, pdc a permaculture design certification course is the first is the first course offering being made That's coming up in uh mid june that'll be happening in spain and um in southern spain That's going to be from june 17th 28th I'm also teaching the course next later this month in california at zaytuna college In the bay area from may 21st to june 1st um And then I think just in general, you know for those who aren't already involved with ERC, you know, please jump in the pool, you know, it's fun and You know tell a tell a friend and um Yeah, I was going to say there'll be a link After you see our faces, you'll see your screen and it'll have a link on the bottom You go to that address ecosystem restoration camps dot org You can become a supporting member that'll enable you to be one of these attendees that gets to ask questions and stuff And then of course this will be up on youtube for everybody afterwards One more thing when you mentioned the the course it reminded me There's new a new website up for the regeneration festival happening at the camp And that's something to check out too. I know we'll be doing speaking of the restoration plan some plantings in like three different zones there There'll be music and workshops. So that'll be kind of fun coming up in late september Just another thing. I remember I wanted to mention But yeah Excellent Very good. Well, thanks so much. Yeah, go ahead You me? Yeah you I was just saying I was I was I was wanting to thank everybody I just want to thank everybody for um, you know for taking the time to you know to participate in this and um Hopefully we'll we'll have a chance to see Some of you in the not too distant future Yes, and we'll keep diving deep. All right. Thanks everybody. Thanks to appreciate it, man Have a great day. Thanks. Thank you. Thanks from me. Thanks everybody Bye. Thank you guys. Cheers