 things escalated the numbers we only went into help a couple of families while we were there we were approached by a group of armed Taliban challenging times don't last you you will look back at them and think oh I also shook the hand of one of the guys who tortured me a young guy on the way out one of the and how are you brother Chris how's it going mate how's it going you about the world yes mate I I'm never gonna complain I think we should start by saying congratulations on your nomination on the UK Veterans Awards hi and congratulations on you being being nominated as well mate with the same category snap well yeah I'm not I think probably like yourself mate I'm not big on this sort of I certainly don't seek it but then in fairness I guess it is nice to be recognized for what you do because otherwise there's not much point in doing it well no there is there's a whole whole I'm contradicting myself but what I mean is you know yeah it is nice to be to have people that appreciate what you do and I'm very fortunate to get lots of messages from people that appreciate what I do what my charity stuff's done what what we did throughout the last 24 months of chaos can I say it's a bit surprising do you know this year they had more nominees for veteran of the year than any other any other year I wasn't aware of a lot of it because obviously for the past nine nine my mom so I was in Afghanistan so I'm kind of a little bit behind the loop as they say but any anything to shine a light on veteran issues the veteran community in a positive way is great and it's actually amazing that both of us have been nominated and both of us have been able to bring a lot of positivity with a lot of other veterans into the veteran community as well you literally that was the second part of what I started to say then and as usual I forgot what I was going to say it's not the first time folks is it but no if we can bring any light into veterans lives and also in light in the public is to you know veterans are a unique breed we many people come from incredibly damaged backgrounds to join the forces you go through some stuff let's just call it when you like you're just a teenager you know you you've gone through some of the most serious decision-making you'll ever have to make in your life not just over your life over other people's lives and and like you know you're not far out your bloody nappies so if we can in any way put a message of light out there for people especially you know obviously those that are struggling and as I always say you know challenging times don't last you you will look back at them and think oh you know haha can't believe I went you know can't believe I and the big thing and isn't it is reach out reach out just find someone that's a good a good guy good or the other day I've reached out to very good friend of mine hello Kathy if you're watching and I just I just wanted to chat with someone you know impartial whatever just put a few things to them and it's good to know you're not alone yeah I think I think that's the that's the important message for any of the veterans who actually who are watching this you're not alone there's loads of us out there pick up pick up the phone speak to someone you know we all have bad days I get them Chris you get them everyone gets them thing is it's to share it and have a chat with one of the guys as well it's it's important yes yes so and you you very came kindly came on the podcast before we learned a bit about your background former para I'm gonna be honest mate such a long time ago I can't remember what other than the fact you've got fascinating story which has just got even more fascinating in the in the last year or so but you know you're no stranger to the Middle East are you or being locked up in her in a Middle Eastern prison no obviously falling I think Stephen Malone for the viewers out there who don't actually know me I'm a veteran of the British parachute regiment embedded combat photographer with a hundred first airborne during the Iraq war I then worked alongside and with the American intelligence throughout several different countries I specialised in Iraq and Afghanistan I end up spending three years in a maximum security prison in Afghanistan refused to pay a bribe to be released so I ended up staying in there working and helping American British intelligence putting information back which obviously helped to save a lot of lives then about 2010 2011 I retired from all sort of work to do with the military the government intelligence serve for the past ten years I've not been involved I've been dedicated my time to Patriot which is a which is a private organization that helps military veterans the families and the children especially homeless veterans or veterans of Patriot stay and for ten years pretty much been focused on that just trying to give back turn everything around and actually help as many people as we possibly can then about a year ago to this month is the year anniversary of British troops being pulled out of Afghanistan over a year ago I was still retired but I started receiving telephone calls satellite phone calls from kernels bigotry generals and some senior members of the former Afghan regime now obviously everyone's seen the actual news about the evacuation absolute carnage very kind of unorganized and everyone's seen it on BBC and Sky and all that as well now I started to help get a couple of people out and it was literally gonna be a couple of families and that was it no intention on going over there but the numbers started to increase exponentially a family of four ended up moving a family of 10 then we ended up moving another 10 families on top of that that's before you even got out of England then I made the command decision myself and some of the veterans like a lot of other veterans out there American and British the evacuation and the way it was unfolding didn't sit well with a lot of us we never leave a man behind ever and we were receiving phone calls from interpreters I would all drivers the families and these are people who I know very very well we've always kept in contact with and these families now have got young children and the Taliban were actively hunting some of these individuals at this time so I made a command decision to go to Afghanistan on a self-funded humanitarian mission and we call that operation patriot operation patriot successfully managed to locate and move over 400 families including many vulnerable children to safe locations safe houses and we managed to get a lot of them out of Afghanistan to third world countries we were working alongside a lot of other organizations a lot of groups it was basically all men all veterans man the pumps and we did whatever we had to do to help get as many people as we can it was a drop in the actual ocean when we were there I went into one meeting in Jalalabad and that was to actually meet with a colleague for British Nationals within an hour of that meeting we had discovered 74 over British Nationals passport holders Jalal Nationals afghan british and they had their families so you can imagine the numbers just increased exponentially so we worked with government agencies and anyone out there to try and help get as many people out as we can now was only meant to be there for two months three months maximum then I was I was out of there let's say we were there purely humanitarian now at the end of the three-month point me and my colleague were actually looking at a house to rent which was the former British and bassidism residence in Kabul which is owned by an Afghan which was for rent at that time we were approached by members of the Taliban a Nova tribal element within the Taliban yeah myself and my colleague were looking at the former British and bassidism residence in Kabul we were looking at renting that and we were approached by an element within the Taliban at that time who a few of them came over wanting to check our identification not a problem got a British passport so we had entry visas in there we had letters of permission from the Taliban government to be in Kabul at that point and over identification they then wanted to confirm a couple of key points we said not a problem so we were asked to accompany them voluntarily to the Afghan head of intelligence his headquarters in Kabul which is literally just around the corner what we thought would say a couple of hours to sort out it didn't put in a holding cell a hundred and ninety days later we were then taken to the airport and we left Afghanistan so that's the overview so you can imagine the chaos all this has caused and I'm just going to clarify for our friends at home so folks Ant's gone over there because as we all know the Americans and allies just like literally pulled out of Afghanistan like almost like that not only did they leave behind the most well-equipped military force in the world i.e. the Taliban now with all the equipment left behind which is slightly ironic for those of you that are old enough to remember the reasons we went into Afghanistan which was to stop the the errorism if I say that so we don't get flagged but of course all the individuals who had been part of that military operation Afghan citizens so interpreters you know fixers etc etc etc who are and can explain this but are deemed eligible for British passports American passports whatever whatever the case may be we're all left behind and if you think about the work that they've done for the Americans for best part of 20 years to be left to the Taliban is I think you know I think we can all picture the scene just absolutely terrifying so Ant's gone over there and has been enabling these individuals out to to essentially emigrate leave the country find somewhere safe and in this process you've been arrested yourself yeah well we got arrested but we were never formally charged with anything we were we were not prisoners it was six British nationals all together one American that was that was pulled me and my colleague we did not know the other people that got pulled but we got pulled purely being in the wrong place at the wrong town we had a British passport we found out afterwards that they were trying to round up as many British nationals from a particular hotel and an area that they could because their objective was to use us as political kind of pawns so their objective was to get us and to hold us as political hostages so that became apparent very early on they did not even realize who I was until after the two week point then all hell breaks obviously because I'm traveling under my real name I had already met prior to me being pulled in Kabul I had already met six senior members of the Taliban I'd already met senior members of the Harkhani family as well multiple members of that network incable I even had been invited in with my colleague and we had had a meeting and a cup of tea in the presidential palace as well so we were not doing anything covert whatsoever there we were there humanitarian getting as many people out as we could but there was an element and still is an element an extremist element out there as well which doesn't want a lot of these people to actually leave so instead of targeting the people that were leaving the element within the Taliban we're trying to target the people that were helping them on the ground they're supposed to be an an amnesty I would have a question mark with that because if you work for the former regime in senior positions or you're on a black list black list we call it which the Taliban are hunting then you've going to have some serious problems there we actually personally saw a lot of a lot of ill treatment and beatings by the Taliban on other Afghans I obviously got given an hour time because I'm a former British soldier and my interrogator was from southern Afghanistan and he had a personal problem with anybody that had served in either the american military or specifically the british military because he had a personal running with British soldiers in southern Afghanistan so me and this particular individual did not get get on at all from day one freak one but that's one of those things it happens I think viewers have got to understand the Taliban a lot of people especially like the western progress call it the Taliban government it's the Taliban is an umbrella organization which covers a lot of different groups tribes tribal system and networks including the Akhani network as well so there's not a fully inclusive comprehensive government running Afghanistan as of now and that's my opinion and I've been there seeing it mark well one I bought there's that much infighting going on between the inside the Taliban it is remnants of what I saw back in 1999 2000 it is it is now went back along the tribal systems given example this is the worst I've actually ever experienced it just in the building we were in each floor was pretty much ran by a different tribal element within the Taliban that's just the building I was in you imagine that's expanded across Kabul then expanded to get across Afghanistan the amount of infighting going on at the moment is phenomenal on top of that you got the fighting going on between the al Qaeda and the Akhani network then you got an armed resistance there as well so it's going to take quite a long time for the dust to settle did you see and I'm just going on a slight tangent here but so I don't forget this but it is quite important did you see many Chinese nationals there yes we we did see some Chinese businessman and government officials in Kabul meeting with senior members of the Taliban yes so again I'm just talking for my friends at home here but we've talked about this a lot before it's really worth understanding the Belt and Road Initiative this super highway from China into Europe I'm not going to pretend that you know I'm the all-seeing eye on all of it but it has been said that the Americans went in to smash the country up basically to make way for the Chinese to come and do business for things like lithium mining etc etc once again order out of chaos I don't think you're supposed to understand it all but it is interesting that that you've seen Chinese businessman there do you know what their deal what their dealings would have been I'm not I wouldn't expect you to but I'm not going to speculate I'm just going to go on what I actually know what I heard and what I actually saw as well now the a lot of Chinese government officials were trying to get close to a lot of the members of the Taliban they were using money as a financial incentive money and properties as well the the Chinese government's been offering offering properties in multiple countries to anyone in the Taliban government who can help them it's not a secret it's out there the Chinese are very interested in the natural resources in Afghanistan you've got copper you've got lithium you've got a lot of other natural resources there as well but the problem is that the Chinese have already been in senior talks both in Afghanistan and there was a Taliban delegation about six months ago that went from Kabul to China as well so they they they are in talks but the problem any country is going to have is who's going to want to invest in a country where it's not stable the security situation is deteriorating the economy is deteriorating as well now the Taliban were telling the Chinese that everything has been okay and it's okay to invest in country the Chinese promised a large amount of money which was hundreds of millions to be given to the Taliban some of that and it is a small amount has changed hands but a lot of it has not everyone's just pulling back the actual reins and watching what happens and it'll be very interesting because you haven't just got the Chinese who are interested in the natural resources in Afghanistan you've got the Americans you've got the British and over European countries all trying to talk to the Taliban to try and see what what they can do now the economy in Afghanistan it is it has been spiraling down inflation has been spiraling as well within the past six months basic necessities are very similar to what's happened in England fuel and food has doubled or quadrupled in price in Afghanistan so there is now a massive shortage of food and aid is required for the Afghan people I am not pro Taliban anyone who knows me knows that but I am pro Afghanistan for the for the people so I think Western governments need to have a good long-hand look at themselves and think how can they help or resolve this I understand that nobody western wants to recognize the Taliban government I get that but opening up a dialogue is important because can we afford not to have a dialogue with the Taliban okay the dust will settle in a week or so's time we everyone knows the leader of al Qaeda was killed in Kabul speculation is it was in one of the Hakanis right and presidencies my personal opinion is I think he actually was but the dust will settle on this and then people have to have a cool head and move forward on it because the western countries cannot afford not to engage with the Taliban at this time because if we don't within six months my opinion there will be several war in Afghanistan and it will become even more of an extremist country which will have a lot of terrorist organizations so we need to really think about can we afford in the west not to engage yes my god there's so much to unpick there again and just for my for our friends at home here so like Afghanistan is a proud nation with a very long history of conflict yeah for the most part put upon them by by other nations as they always say you wear the watches we've got the time yeah it's fascinating to read some of the the books on the conflict there's a book called I think it's called the bear trap or the bear claw and it's the bear trap it's written about the Soviet occupation or invasion of Afghanistan talks about how hard these people are they'll go they don't they don't favor traditional battle tactics simply because it doesn't it doesn't work so they're more the kind of hit and run raids but if one of them gets shot by an American bullet Russian bullet so on and so forth they have to understand they might have to be carried on a donkey or a horse for six days before they even can get to a hospital not nothing like what we understand you know you're shot in a battlefield within 20 minutes you're in a chinook and within a day you're back in a uk in in one of the top hospital fascinating fascinating culture um i personally i don't believe the mainstream i don't think it was um i don't think this country was of any threat to us back 20 years ago nor did i think that they were cultivating these massive camps of uh you know fighting people that were all going to come and attack me and my family in my bed but i don't want to go down that route because i want to hear aunt get more into aunt's story um but you can see now everyone has to get by whether that's the Taliban government government in Africa when people are starving and they need food then you're going down that line again aren't you like i i worked in Mozambique every grain sacks all the aid had the american flag on it so what deal had been done there with a president of Mozambique to keep the people happy what was being taken out that country to the usa etc etc then of course you get international finance the world bank come comes in into these things so it it is um you know this is the nature of these things i don't i don't think anyone thinks it's straightforward um it's a quagmire it's a quagmire and as with anything in the world the rich get richer don't learn the poor poor stay poor and and poor poor die in poverty but back to your story aunt because this is um incredible so were you able to say the other chat that you were locked up with was it was it just one guy or was it a few uh i'm not going to drop any names on here some of them have been in the press against their family's consent uh and these are friends of mine so i'm not going to mention any names on this interview yeah no no no we don't want to get any anybody into any trouble i i'm just trying to build a picture here so what kind of conditions were you in um you know were you like in a dark room what what kind of food was the food okay or i mean for you you're you're very experienced in that part of the world i'm i'm sure you can eat it all but i was i was quite fortunate because the gentleman who who i was with um i've known him for a long time and between me and this gentleman we have over 65 years joined on and off experience in afghanistan i've only got 22 years on and off in afghanistan 32 years military post on a combined experience now between both of us it was a bit of a unusual situation because we know the country we know the players but we didn't know the amount of infighting that was going on within the taliban or the taliban against the aghanis it was a very and not many people do understand it or could even get the head around what was going on what is going on within the afghan government at this time we were actually kept for 190 days in an underground taliban interrogation centre in qabbar we were locked up for 23 and a half hours every day we had no natural daylight or sunlight i was kept in solitary confinement after one of the beatings i received for 70 days until my wounds had healed externally then i was moved back in with my friend as well who's also very experienced in afghanistan british national there was over there was another five british nationals in there as well all of us kept in the same corridor so we got to speak to each other spookmatically but we kept tabs on each other and we all knew what each other were up to what was going on and the treatment between us all as well i got signaled out purely because i was a former british power and my interrogator had a massive problem with military guys who were who had been connected to parliament at that time so for him it wasn't a job it was a very personal thing so yeah a bit of an outside with that one the food was rice beans a stable diet of that i went in i weighed 98 kilo i came out i was just just over 70 so it was the best slimfast plan i've ever seen all right um conditions were pretty abaric the treatment at the time was pash for myself and the other guys that were kept hostage but it was the being stuck up on underground not knowing what the hell was going on 23 and a half hours a day it can it can play with you behind a little bit so some of us fed a lot better there was a couple of us in there who the guys no fault of the world they just didn't deal with it that well i'm not going to mention any names it's just it's one of those one of those things um myself and my colleague were quite fortunate and we have a lot of experience in afghanistan the food the culture so we had a basic understanding and knowledge of what to expect um the first couple of months were like i said were harsh at times was it a time where i thought they were going to take us outside and shove us in their heads absolutely yes there was a couple of times where we thought this might not be a good a good day here because the interrogators were angry there'd be other things happening outside of our control in afghanistan and it wouldn't have surprised us if the dragon on of is out um but in that situation you can either curl up and die in the corner and cry or you roll up your sleeves keep a positive attitude and you crack on so fortunately able to roll up the sleeves head on with it and keep the guys is motivated and in a good mindset as well we possibly can i'm quite fortunate i'm a x power very dark sense of humor always trying to kind of keep everyone is upbeat as we can so as i was saying there's no point crying there's no point sitting in in in the corner all right because what i told the guys when we were in there was how are you acting here right now how you are what you say what you do when this ends and it will end this will pass people will remember how you've acted so i said bear that in mind when you go upstairs for interrogation and bear that in mind in your general dealings with the guards and everybody else and i was really spot on with that because now everyone's out everyone did get released back home safe with the families and i've told the guys to try and take as much time as they can a couple of months if need be get themselves back into normal civilian life and i'm just going to put all this down as a life experience life saved job done that's it mm-hmm yes you've got a good head on your shoulders though and you are incredibly positive i mean every time i've spoken to you you're massively like always in the upbeat and it's good because life can be a bit you can get all of us down at times you know and it's uh it's a it you're a good guy and you know chris don't forget though all of us have our good and bad days when i was inside i had a couple of bad days everyone gets the rest of the guys picked me up instead and come on i it lasted a very short period of time because i'm like you know something bollocks well up his sleeves this would get on with it so yeah everyone gets the good and bad bad days mate if anyone out there tells you they don't ever get a bad day i don't think they're telling the truth on that one mate but like i said my personal opinion is just try and keep as upbeat as you can it will pass the sun will shine in the morning and help if they did take us outside and shoot us at the back of the head that would have been the end of it i wouldn't have had anything else to be concerned about so there's no point in worrying about something if it hasn't happened so the way i looked at it was yeah um it was an educational experience it was emotional at times but it was very insightful into how the taliban government operates internally who the main key players are because at one point the communication between the british foreign office and the taliban broke down completely they were not talking to each other consulate services access was completely denied and stopped because the taliban were upset about a variety of things so myself and my pop colleagues managed to get a couple of key members of the taliban in one place we managed to get a phone call to the fco at that point head of the afghan desk who was a great guy he was not expecting a phone call off me and i said right this is who i am you know i am um got you over a couple of british nationals here i've got the taliban here as well um i think you guys ought to start talking and that that was the point where things started to start to go fairly well as in positive for us being released one of my colleagues who got who got released a week or so before the rest of us and that was kept very very quiet he was able to guide the the foreign office into the british foreign office to who we really needed to speak to because that's the big problem at the moment how would you know who to talk to in a new government in a country you you don't have any diplomatic ties with so we were able to point everyone in the right directions the good people that talk to they're not so good as in these are the guys you don't want anything to do with these are the guys who can make the decision so it all turned out okay in the end of it um but like i said like well like what what you said chris afghanistan a very complicated country with a lot of a lot of history it's a warring nation and for over 40 years they've been at war with some country or another but it would be nice to see the country calm down whether or not it can it's up to the afghan people and the government to decide that well hopefully cooler heads will prevail and it needs an afghan solution for an afghan public western countries can't get to involved in it because if we do we'll get bogged down and the last thing we need to see is british or western troops back in afghanistan again yes yes they they need an afghan solution to an afghan problem it would would help if they like didn't get invaded again yeah um and there's a lot to ask here so at what point in your captivity did the foreign office get well did you get to hear that they were involved or how did you get the word out to them or is that what you just described to us my family and my fiance was actually talking this is an unusual twist my fiance was talking directly to the taliban and she was talking directly to my interrogator and she's recorded all of those phone calls so it's very unusual to have a family member talking to the people that were keeping us captive that's normally only the foreign office so a lot of the family well a couple of the families my fiance and the they were they were helping basically to find out who needed to be spoken to who was in charge what was going on uh my fiance was passing messages to me through the foreign office we got a phone call to our families once they were three or four weeks for a couple of minutes five minutes a thing as well which is not a lot of time and you've got to keep it we're surrounded by our members of the taliban so we can't say anything toward at all so it's just basically all of us are alive proof of life trying to persuade and negotiate which was what the foreign office were trying to do at that time and um god i got like a meal a a a a a a a a million questions but one were you you say you interrogated can you tell us a bit more about was it just you know verbal in you said you got beaten was this a regular thing or was was this a one off did you get the idea that they that you thought it might be over any any moment now um there was a couple of times where I was given a bit of a bit of a hard time um yes I was beating um according to international rule of law I think a few things that happened to me is classed as torture one of these times was five taliban fit me down to the floor handcuffed me tied tied me legs together removed me shoes and socks and with the bottom of my feet with a rubber paws um deserve received no damage to me right inside my body at the same time that was happening one of the talibs around me boots was kicking me repeatedly in the ribs so I suffered six cracked ribs loose kidneys and a kidney infection as well so I got a bit of a bit of an add time of of like that um that's going to be some really ad hoc questions which didn't make a great deal of sense and the guy interrogating me made it very clear he did not like the British military our country and basically having to go all out so really I didn't help myself either because um I kind of gave him a load of verbal back for one of a better word on it told him to go for a job um at one point during an interrogation um I stood up I was like obviously handcuffed and I said do you want me to go down the shop and I'll get you some crayons and I'll use some small words so you understand what I'm saying I mean so I've got a hell of a kicking for that one as well um yeah so but obviously being a former vet I'm not going to see anybody who's gonna have a go at like British vets or the British military I mean because I'm a patriot end of um so I gave him as much crap as what he gave in my time section as well and what was their feeling towards you what was their general position because you're basic there to get the guys out the country guys guys and their families but the the the agents that have really been against them for 20 years and and and you know you don't really go against the Taliban that's that's not that's sort of unheard of um as as an Afghan national yeah what was yeah what was their position towards you out were they like you know did they accept that this is like a diplomatic thing and and you know they've got to handle this properly or were they just it took them a while to work it out me interrogator was a very young guy um a little bit of English not not the very intelligent at the best of chance um just because he spoke a couple of words of English he was given the job as an interrogator um at one point I actually said to him why don't you write down the questions you want to ask everybody and then you're going to get a decent conversation rather than trying to use broken English and him not realising or understanding a lot of the words that the guys like myself and the other British nationals were using trying to explain everything and every time we used a word he didn't know he used to go into one because he thought we made him look stupid well he was end of you can't understand a word in English and don't interrogate us in English I mean it's just basic common sense isn't it they was actually a split because some other Taliban hated us end of they would just want to take us outside and put a bullet in about our heads but the more senior Taliban who were spoke very good English and they understood the English language as well they wanted us out we actually had seven senior ministers including the minister of interior and the foreign minister who wanted all the British nationals released quickly got out the country but they didn't have the cloud internally amongst the other Taliban and it's a tribal element there so you actually had after Taliban wanted us dead and the other half wanted us gone like released so it was a very difficult and very challenging dynamic to try and overcome all we could do was touch base with the educated Taliban and actually speak to them and get them to touch base and speak to the foreign office so eventually we actually did and it was successful and it worked but there is a very disturbing element within what they call the Taliban which is hardcore extremism and that's more down the guidelines of from what I like to say about al-Qaeda and that is a strong extremist element in that country and the longer the west don't engage then the extremism might take more root than what it is at this moment in time the language is it Urdu in in Afghanistan you've got Pashtun in this town and Darian Pasi as well and a lot of the senior members of the Taliban speaking Arabic yeah of course and do you speak a bit of that now then I'm guessing you're not fluent in every one of the one of the languages or dialects but I know enough to get to get get get by one of them or the better word on this but I was very surprised at how good some of the senior members especially the foreign ministry there's a few guys in there that speak very good English and I mean they understand it as well so you can have a very top-end conversation with these guys I actually sat with the head of Afghan intelligence one evening and I was drinking tea in his office because I thought I was going to get another cake again and in the middle of the night I was taking upstairs sat down I thought all right well this is going to be this is going to get emotional and we just sat there drinking tea you wanted to know about politics perspective you wanted to know what was going on in the west what how does the west perceive them and he was telling me about how they perceive the west very different kind of I would call it a very honest open conversation and if senior members of the Taliban can have a conversation like that with me there is a good possibility they might have it with other western government officials that there is an element there that actually knows if they don't get this right then there will be civil war within six months so the Taliban aren't just trying to deal with internal issues in the country internal issues within their their own organization as well and they're they're trying to figure out how to deal with the west as well the situation of Afghanistan it could be it's a bit of an unusual one because there are hard binars from Kandahar you might find that the country in the near future could be split into different areas the south will be the Taliban the north could very well be a Kani led wave obviously the northern tribes there as well because people in the north and there is members of the Taliban and the Akhannis who want women to be educated now this is a very strong political point at the moment not every member of the Taliban doesn't want their children to be educated a lot of them do and a lot of people don't realize this but it's a hard liners from from Kandahar that the older ones that don't want the girls to be to be educated so the Taliban from Kandahar are like dragging the Taliban movement or the Afghan government back in time when there's an element within the Taliban umbrella that want the girls to go back it's positive that they need females to be trained as doctors as nurses in universities as well so be very interested in a not too distant future if the hard liners are outnumbered by the more progressive young ones because yeah this is not 2002 anymore technology has come on a long way every Taliban I saw had a smartphone which means they have access to the internet they were listening to music they were watching the news internationally as well so these are very tech savvy young ones and they're not going to want to take a step back in time these are the generation who want to take a step forward and so it'll be very interesting to see the next six months what what progression can be made within Afghanistan have any of your torturers tried to add you as a friend on facebook? I actually shook their hand of one of the guys and he was a young guy as well and he was following orders and if he hadn't kicked me the way he did he would have ended up in prison if not shot so on the way out because he was a young guy and he's got a young kid as well now he's got a three month year old boy as well shook his hand said I don't have a problem but if you meet any Westerners in the future treat him a little bit better and he actually apologised as well. Yeah so I'm just highlighting the the bizarreness of these situations that that can occur it remind me so I met two um I think they were Canadian boys and they were oil rigors out there earning a fortune you know drilling a sea in the Mexican Gulf or whatever and and used to spend all their money on beer and traveling and one time they they got on a yacht to Jamaica and because they hitchhiked to ride on a yacht they didn't have any return like airfare they just rocked up in Jamaica and next thing you know and and this was a recognised thing where a member of the local police force would come down to the docks check everyone's passports and if they didn't have an immigration stamp they'd say oh come with me well we'll fix that for you and he'd take them straight to the prison whereupon they'd be charged with a leave illegal immigration because you haven't got an air ticket out of here right yeah these two Chinese sorry Chinese these two Canadian lads are locked up in in in this um what's the capital of Jamaica called it's um ah anyway sorry somebody put in the comments folks i'm having a gray moment but anyway so they're locked up in they said they're in this basement like a dungeon underneath the prison and they're locked in there with rapists murderers people that you know stabbed people and and they said they kept themselves to themselves didn't want to didn't want to interact you know didn't want to draw any attention himself and they said all these guys used to form these these local Jamaicans would form a circle and they they'd spark up a joint and pass it around the circle and these two Canadians like oh actually maybe maybe we will join you guys the way they told me story it's one of the funniest things i ever ever heard and finally after getting like beaten and abused they got taken the cash point they had to empty the cash point and give it to these corrupt coppers they had they took them to a travel agent they had to buy a ticket which they promptly then cancelled and and hid out on the beach for like 10 days before they could sail out again right and um they said after the police had done all this to them they're walking down the street one day and the chief of police is coming the other way and he's like hey hi guys how how you're doing and they're like you fucker you just mean like torturing that we've been unlocked up in your prison for doing absolutely nothing you've emptied our bank accounts and now you're like hi guys so sorry that my mind just cross-threaded there a bit um i can imagine the absurdity of people like who who gave you hard time then then going oh i just had you on facebook as well what finally secured your release or what led to your your release our release was a lot of work by the families the british foreign office and seven other countries that helped secure our release our freedom including um a directorial message from the president of the united states officially demanded that the Taliban release the six british nationals and obviously the one american there as well so he didn't have to do that we're not american but he put his um he threw his hat in the ring on that one and there was a lot of incredible work done by members of the foreign office and i would like to say that because the guys in the foreign office i've given him a hard time in the past but the old guys have gone there's a lot of new people in the foreign office now and the head of the afghan desk worked around the clock with his team to secure help secure our release and the way they looked after the families and when we come back to england as well we were met at the at the at the airport and we were whisked through um in a private area and we're given a private room at the airport each of us to meet our families so we didn't have to go through the normal procedure or go through the arrivals gate or anything like that as well so a big thank you there to all the countries who helped us and obviously members of the foreign office good do they let you bring a suitcase of hashback as well um no do they because you've been in prison in afghanistan right yeah i spent three when i was working with the americans in polish shaggy yeah and obviously you know it's quite well known that in islamic countries people don't drink or at least they don't drink in they don't let the public know that they drink um yeah there are ways to get hold of alcohol i think in many of these places well that was my experience when we drove to india but um what you do see a lot is smoking hashing in the middle east is is that something they're allowed to do in the in the prisons or is that um the british nationals didn't have anything to do with any of that any of us but you could smell it okay so the guards did partake in that particular thing upon occasion yeah okay got you sorry i just i got a very curious nature and about the the planet and my experiences of it um how was it settling back have you been is besieged the word by the press you know how no the my name was not released again a big thank you to the phone office there they contacted the papers the editors and said um obviously me and my family didn't want our names at all mentioned while i was in afghanistan when i returned afghanistan that offer was still on the on on the table but i knew that my name would come out at some point anyway you can't vanish off the face of the planet for nine months and nobody starts asking any questions a lot of the editors a lot of the person i actually personally already know already knew that what had happened or the or the basics of it so i made the decision myself to go public with what had happened why it had happened and the time frames involved in it because that way people get to actually know what happened why it happened and they get to know the facts of it rather than obviously you know yourself chris sometimes people put two on two on social media and get 10 so i thought best get it out now this is what happened and that's and and that's the end of it didn't think it was that much of a big deal but obviously being kept in a underground Taliban interrogation center for six months it was a bit of an interesting one so hopefully now obviously speaking about it again i hope some people can learn from my experience and the fact of the british government and other countries now know the right members of the Taliban to open up some kind of a dialogue with don't have to recognize them or another dialogue some good has and will come out of this but time will actually tell what happens in afghanistan did you i'm looking at the photo here of you and it's in a mirror online and i think it has to be said you went when you when you've got the traditional afghan dress on yeah can you pass for a national uh yeah myself and my colleague we were walking around the bizarre the markets we even had members of the Taliban came up to us one time when we're in the local market asking us for dying versions so yeah we can pass quite quite easily as long as we don't speak english yeah of course that that kind of yeah i'm just sorry i'm just making a note here for luke if he can put that photo in the thing and are you standing is that a high-end helicopter you're standing next to it is yeah god they were some machines weren't they yeah i think there's still some uh there's still a couple of them floating around that particular one was a really old one i think that was in the museum in Kabul but it was a very iconic one so i wanted to get a picture of that yeah they were the sort of you know original russian gunships weren't they oh hell yeah yeah gosh and listen it's been great chatting it's gonna be uh great to see you next month and also later this month we might have a slight issue for the photo shoot i've got the same jacket as you ah i might have a different one at that point and it's the only real one that i've got well i've got a few but it's the only one i really wear um and uh how can people get hold of you if they want to get hold of you obviously we'll put links below but feel free to shout anything that you want now and also your book i think anyone who wants to get get hold of me or you do is type anthony steven malone into the internet it'll it'll bring you to my web page facebook instagram my main website is www dot anthony malone dot me dot uk that'll give you the full backstory and everything that's going on also the links to to my books my new book hostage evacuation will be out on the 8th of september i hope people enjoy that as well it's both informative and emotional and thank you for everyone for watching um chris and his amazing podcast yes and i will second that and massive thank you um good luck with the book so there's no mean challenge to get a book out of the best of times and uh and uh yeah i bet you've been writing your ass off haven't you yeah myself and a lot of other people have been helping me as well this is going to be an unusual book because it's got a lot about afghan afghan women's rights in there written by some young ladies have spent a long time in afghanistan afghan and some of my friends in the united nations and obviously the american government as well so it is going to be a very informative detail book about everything that's happening out there yes give chuck us a link for it as soon as you get it up on amazon or wherever you're going to retail it uh brilliant all right and what as i said well stay on the line just so i can thank you properly but for the purposes of the tape massive thank you again um friends at home wow i think i might go and dig over the potatoes now massive thank you um for watching if you can like and share subscribe that'll be wonderful please look after yourself we'll see you soon thank you