 About a quarter of an hour for the debate. So we have time for some please short questions from the audience and short answers so let's start and I Don't see Would like to start from the audience My name is it is I am the head of MRS policy center in Abu Dhabi ah this competition between China and United States has been discussed in per-slava global sick security conference and There were two European the Eastern European and the Western European the debate was that Well When it comes to money, the United States does not give money That does not give any importance for Eastern Europe and they ask to see the president They've never been Give the chance While China comes with the money and whatever they will ask they will be given Same in the Gulf now. We have the same delin United States wants also Nowadays, of course with the new alignment that We give everything by United States are not moving are not going to give anything and they're asking us to Leave China now. This is the dilemma while you have your economy The Chinese are able to help but the American are not willing to help in terms of economy even with the Protection militarily protection the American are moving away from the region So the question now if we are the Western European the gulf is to choose between These two this is also the question to be debated Thank you Eastern Europe was addressed so Bogdan and America was addressed for you. Okay, but then you start Thank you very much for this question because it is important to underline this Difference between the approach of the United States and European Union to China We say in Europe that China is a challenge when Russia is a threat and There is a difference with for example this opinion that was introduced into the national security strategy of the United States from 2018 and the specific The specific challenge for the countries of central Europe. This is the format 16 plus one Now 15 plus one after the decision of Lithuanian government to withdraw from this format 16 plus one that country and after you know the confrontation with China that was against the involvement of of Taiwan in the relationship with Lithuania majority of countries from central Europe decided to weekend to weekend relations with China not to go As far as president at the prime minister Victor Orban from Hungary did Involving its country and its economy in the full cooperation with China with the presence of banks and Chinese capital instead of Many other European partners so within the European Union We try to have the common approach to China although I tried to describe, you know those two Let's say different positions one of Lithuania's government and the other of Hungarian government as well Okay. Thank you Before being leading a sink tank in Washington and participating in another one I was for many years as some of you know a banker and I work for city bank and Between 2010 and 2014 I was based in New York and I was covering The emerging markets and talking to companies and seeing how we can help in providing banking services around the world And I visited many countries like Pakistan, Algeria, Central America and everywhere Surprisingly surprisingly Chinese construction companies were often the clients of city bank. Where were they the clients of city bank for a very good reason They didn't want to deal with the local banks often were not well organized corrupted They didn't want to work with the Europeans often because they were representing the old colonial powers And they were willing to work with us because we were the the alternative not the alternative of choice But the alternative of choice or non-choice of the other one having said that I remember very well some conversation And the conversation was as such How's the business and the people were saying well Chinese companies come they are very aggressive on the commercial side They offer us some very attractive terms So we give them the contract and then the problem starts the problem is delays the problem is Cost overrun and the problem is the fact that they don't create jobs because they bring their workers And once the contract is over they take back to workers and at the end of the day You end up in a situation where you didn't get what you wanted you pay too much for it You get into some debt look at what happened in Malaysia Malaysia it's a very good example Malaysia was part of this region road project for China and ultimately they pulled back and that happened with other countries Thank you Anna and then Saki I think that with Europeans in this case you from the Gulf we cannot be so self-flagellating Yes, it is true that In our in our cooperation there are strings attached Always human rights and so but what what we we have to remind our partners in Africa all over the world Is that China has strings attached not just bringing bringing workers is that normally there is a barter a change? I build this There's this stadium and you give me the the product of this mine And this is what is behind we are seeing how it's a land Sri Lanka in other places They have taken hold of just ports big big infrastructures in exchange for For loans of money. So again, we have a lot of issues, but with China we have to be Very clear cut as well that it's not just giving money no strings attached They don't give money and there are strings that in the end are Even I mean even more difficult to face than the ones that we from the start put on the thing Thank you. Thank you Anna. I may ask Wang Yixi in a moment, but Saki you have the next From a European perspective The way we deal with China is in my view quite smart in a sense that we have in our strategy Defined our position vis-à-vis China as a partner a competitor and a strategic rival Okay, and nobody mentioned the fact That the that's he exactly at least officially the position Which had been adopted by the new American administration. It's exactly the same wording I'm not saying that The policy conducted is a long-dose line necessarily, but the way we We behave is a big China is Hedging in a smart way. There are areas in which we have to cooperate with China it's indispensable and Very important for the international order Climate change is a very important issue Even the GCPOA is an important issue and the Chinese are playing a positive role in this In this area now we have divergences and From the discussion we had with the Chinese counterpart They said yeah, we are we are partners, but we are not rivals So please drop the idea of rivals. No. No, there is a rivalry with China because in terms of value they are strong differences and even in terms of interest they are strong differences and My personal view is concerning the 60 plus one my personally I will prefer to have all members of the European Union Yeah, being within the European Union when they talk to to China, there is no need to have a sub-specific sub-system of relation between Europe and And and and China Thank you very much. Yezi. Would you like to comment on? China's policy vis-a-vis the European Union and the US in this context Yes, I Think the Chinese Europe is different from his approach in Chinese eyes The United States is major problem And you would be a less of a problem But they are going Each other in denouncing China's advice And some European powers even joined the United States and Doing some military in the South in South China Sea and as we see it European countries are closer to Taiwan than before and these sections Unated Europe from from China But my point is Trump is not as angry Europeans as to the American Actually the strategy to put it in place is to drive a wish between Union and the United States But whether they do so or not, I'm not too sure On the one hand, China's actions are not so much Assumptuous or aggressive. China's rules are very much Assumptuous and aggressive that those better weeks are catering for China's domestic China's domestic purposes and it's International So this is a problem Unfortunately time is up and the chairman Reminds me that we should stick to the time because there are more events to follow so first of all, I would like to thank the panel for their contributions and I would like to conclude with a word of caution on what we have said Despite your relevant point that there's a great deal of continuity Between the present administration and the previous one and the point has been made very well indeed by by Richard Haas in this in this very readable piece However, however the uncertainty of American domestic politics is a fact and We do not know we do not know what America will look like in 22 and in 24 and There may be a return of what we had before and What consequences that will have for the transatlantic relationship for multilateralism for relations with China? I'm sorry to say is at this point unpredictable so there is this Point and it was made in an earlier Earlier discussion by Piersa. Okay. There is always something unforeseen around in international politics and it may happen again But in any case at this stage, I think we can say That a new geopolitical structure is emerging The Europeans are challenged to play a role in affecting this structure And it poses enormous pressure on the Europeans themselves to get their house in order and with that I would like to thank the panel and close the session. Thank you very much You