 Hello everybody if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer weekly Joining me as always my forever co-host mr. Tyler Emerson. What's up, brother? How you doing? Good man. Good to be back. Hope everybody's well Excited for this indeed also joining us first time on the show And I'm sad that we've waited this long to have them. It's Rocco. You boy. What's up Rocco? How you doing? Hello, everybody. Hello Vince. Hello Tyler. Hello chat. I'm feeling good. This is nice. This is nice It's great to have you Rocco. Pleasure being here. If you're not familiar. He was one of our participants in our Muppets evolved game that happened over on Meph's channel. It was a great time. Rocco played a Fantastic Muppet. It was I did I had it was the Swedish chef disciple that went around with his his pant is trusty Panpan and his gun goon and it was a real gun that just blew up actual Muppets for a lot of damage Stereco, it was great. It was a great game. So Glad to have Rocco on the channel tonight. We're gonna be sharing our thoughts on a OS 3.0 so far getting into some of the oh, let's call it nuances of the things we've learned Tyler and I we've gotten on Rocco We've gotten a bunch of games in Rocco has been doing a series over on his own channel and understanding some fine nuances We've got some tournaments now. So it's we've got some thoughts. You're gonna listen to every one of them That's how this works And right off the rip if you like the idea of thoughts, why not hit that like button? It's so easy. It's just clicking it right away and it helps other people find the show Just click that little button be a cool guy or gal thought provoking man thought provoking Dean But first off the news as always so Tyler, what have we got? The news rumor engine Do we finally have a week where it's an AOS thing? I think we may have done it Yeah, I'll bring it up. Sorry. I had the event slide up still because I wasn't thinking but that's okay. That's all right It's all good it is a corn thing because you can see the corn symbol right here the rest of this Yeah, corn symbol That doesn't necessarily mean it's an AOS thing as we mentioned before they've met they've rumored the word bearers Coming down so could very well be a 40k thing Who knows? Yeah, get the corn vibe or maybe what are they called exonites the Eldari And that could be a cane thing, huh? Yeah. Yeah, okay. Yeah a little more fair. I'm I mean, that's that's the dream. Have there ever been exonite models In 40 I don't know actually if anybody in chats knows that I don't remember sink Maybe way back when yeah, they'd have some there was a lore There's supposed to be corsairs we never see there's supposed to be a whole a whole mess of the space of somewhere doing something I Think they probably regular range before they start exploring the other things Sure, you're not wrong. Yeah, we could be hopeful though. Sure. It's probably world-eaters. Yeah. Yeah So yeah, there's that and then of course we had Warhammer pluse launched Yeah I My favorite things that Rob does. Yeah, it gets me every time So we had a bad report thousand points between stormcast and curl boys. We actually got a little more info Yes, give a give a quick run down So I didn't see anything what I wanted Tyler live in field reporting what we love 100% done my job All right, so a stuff action for curl boys called gritting blades I don't think we've heard about this one yet. Maybe we did an article and it's forgot about it Maybe out of the mist. Yeah out of the mist battle traits the first round Units are not visible to enemy units more than 12 away So they get night fighting in round one Yep, yeah, I'll take it. That's too bad. That's too bad. Get that shooting meta out of here, man Right Yeah, it's not not doing a damn thing to sentinels, but hey, whatever They just shoot into the clouds don't even care. They just hear they hear the sounds of orcs dying Slippery scumbag command trait amazing name you can retreat and still charge Sure, I think that's part of the grinning blades Spiker seeds artifact once per game have an enemy unit fishes finishes a charge move six inches away Throw the spiker seeds roll a dice reach model in the unit five plus some mortal wounds Little mortal wound bomb on a big day. Yeah, pretty crazy. Yeah, pretty cool Was that a once per game you said or yeah, I think that's yeah once per game artifacts, okay Okay, and Little bit on so Forgetting the fellow's name with warmer community. He played hammers of Sigmar They you know, they used to have the six of Ward. I think it was around heroes. Yeah. Yeah hammers of Sigmar Okay, because now it's Well, the article was saying that you can have to go with the in guard now is battle line there and And I got some fulminators that are gonna need a home because if they lost their shooting attack And now it's an ability my whole living city list I've been using for Year and a half is gone. Oh Yeah That's some drag off to move around All right, so now Nick Nick was playing hammers of Sigmar. Yeah, okay six up or when within or probably holy within 12 And he said with them. Maybe it was holy within within 12 inches of an objective you get a six up ward Okay, Sigmar units again. Yeah, okay, and then envoy of the heavens commensurate For him, Mr. Sigmar if unit within 12 or again, maybe holy within 12 suffers a casualty that unit gets a plus one save for the rest of the term. Oh Again, that's pretty strong Okay, so they have to it have to be they have to be getting attacked by multiple units to trigger that Right. Exactly. Yeah. I don't know if that was just one unit or if any unit could you know a unit or yeah single unit and then The artifact a modified one, you know, pretty pretty basic a modified moon rolls of six to double damage on one melee weapon profile hammered Might artifact power. So okay. Yeah news. Sure. It's there It works, I guess better than on the on the to hit but still right the thing Yeah, it's a thing quick question. Did they get rid of the the bring back a redeemer unit on a five up Then They didn't mention it. So I would must be gone. Okay. Okay. Okay, okay You may want to try try turning your camera on and off again by the way again Rocco It's doing that thing again that thing All right, here we go. Although you did have a good frozen frame not a silly frozen frame. Ah, I feel was a good one I could have just It's all right It looks like it's gonna keep doing it because he came back you move for like a second then it stopped Now you're doing it again. It'll just have to be the way we live with All right, I tried sorry yet. Such is it such is life such as life We're gonna get all sorts of fun Rocco freeze frames during this during this show. Hey So all this info was on warhammer pluse on their 100 on their thousand point battle report that went out. Yeah, good Yeah, so that leads into we got a little status update on the Where are the battle tomes? Yes, I mean Not getting all the details of you know changing articles and from the past yada yada yada, but basically they're now saying Due to the ongoing global disruption rest assured that the battle tomes will be both available To pre-order in September Okay That's the thing I guess It's a shame We're really pushing it here for me getting a hold of my stuff for that tournament that I'm going to in early November Like this is it's getting harder and harder for me to know what I'm playing so Which one are you going to in November? I'm going to Holy Havoc and I want to take now It's only a thousand points a storm cast I have to have painted so that's otherwise there'd be no chance of this especially with the paint scheme I'm going for here but the But you know not getting a hold of my dragon riders and stuff like that when clearly that's what I'm gonna paint Because then I can make like a nine model army and it'll be great and I'll actually finish this in time But You know yeah, like the battle tome delay is insane It's like whatever you can't get the books. I I'm sure they're shipping them from China I don't know why they still only have the books as opposed to just putting out digital books That's what I mean. There's a lot of obvious things Tyler I said, what are my thoughts on Warhammer plus my thoughts are it seemed like a train wreck today if you have to put out a flowchart For how to sign in to your your service Like I mean like I don't I don't have anything that a million other content creators aren't gonna already say and think like I mean Of course, it's silly like there's no universe where that's appropriate. You know, I mean like it's just a common-sense thing Like when I get a new app From any from anyone, you know in in the world, I don't expect that to be how it works, right? Yeah, I go in the app. I create my new account. Yeah, there's a multi-factor authentication and then I'm done You know, like that's it. Yeah, this works So like it just Like again, I don't have any I'm sorry everybody I don't have any great passion for it like I don't have any great anger Because they've never proven themselves competent at launching these apps and I had no expectations that they would prove themselves competent this time like yet again, they managed to Somehow find rock bottom and and just continue with that level of quality when it comes to their digital content. So I Don't know what to tell you. Yep Yeah, like Yeah, the somebody made a comment that you know, basically the battle time delay may be due to the AOS app delay which of course the 40k app was quite delayed and I Had gathered a bit of a mess when it came out as well I'm not sure the current state of it But yeah, so that that could there will be the case that they're just trying to get their AOS app in order before they can Get these books up, you know with the connection between the two I think they're gonna make the battle terms available digital only through That app as I understand it Yeah Tyler said what why do I think they've they've had a spotty track record simple because they it's not what they do Like businesses do a thing when you try to do things outside of that and you don't bring in the right people And it's outside of your wheelhouse of expertise it you often have problems like that's just by the way This isn't something like unique to them Even like major very successful tech companies regularly screw crap up like this You know when Facebook first launched Facebook live people were like murders and suicides and stuff like oops You know so and that's pretty egregious so again, it's not like You know, it's not like this is some unique thing for GW and by the way, that's that was actually in Facebook's wheelhouse Of the type of product they developed and they still royally screwed it Yeah So like it's just it's it's a very easy thing to mess up and when you're working out when you're trying to do something I'll hold you sort of vertical and when you when you're working outside of your expertise as well It's just a it's an environment. That's right for it So there you go. I mean that's my thoughts like I I'm sure they'll eventually get it to a good place Yeah, so it's gonna take some months a lot of kinks to be you know, ironed out It'll happen eventually and then we'll move on is up. Nothing to complain about sure. I mean like You know, you know, they're a model company as we hear about with the rules. They're a model company Yeah, sure. I mean, you know, it's again, it's not worth my righteous thinking nation. I don't play 40k and You know, that was the I don't care about any of their animations I'm sure I would like to watch Louise paint because I think she's an excellent painter. Oh, yeah But like I don't care enough about the app to do that. There are a lot of great painters on YouTube. So, okay If she had a channel, I would watch it. I would certainly do that I think she's an awesome person and a fantastic painter, but you know There you go. Like I there's there's zero percent content that interests me as part of that app So it literally couldn't matter less to me that it's messed up So there you go. I like the the bet reps. I thought they did a pretty nice job out of the gates I haven't checked out the 40k one yet. But yeah, I enjoyed the the thousand pointer I'm sure that they did. So, yeah, we'll see how those develop. Sure. That was well done They put a lot of effort into that one We got a little article on grips with stormcasts. So just wanted a quick if anybody missed it We got a little bit more info on yeah on the balsam what these groups gonna be doing Rocky might well Actually, both you guys might find as compelling Storm I know I do I read that I love that stormcast is my first time me I saw the rules for the griffon got changed. I'm like, okay Chariots. I'm a chariot fan But go on go on Yeah, well, basically they got the impact hits the storm strikes chariot as you're in leash at the end of the charge move They can end me unit with an inch of it roll another dice equal to the unmodified charge rolls if you roll an eight You roll eight dice for each four plus a mortal wounds. So pretty tasty. It's up there. So they have that the basic cast Yeah, that's basically what the cast chariot has it's I guess the cast It is on a five up not a four up, but still over charge like the good over charge. Yeah good over charge Yeah, that'd be a better comparison But I mean like it's it's following a template that other chariots in the game have they're trying to make chariots useful It's nice. I'm okay with that Yeah, I will never run that that chariot So if I if I if it's so rules compelling that I felt the need to use it Yeah Then I would I would I would certainly do something else like it would be a very different chariot Again, I said it before I'll say it again. I want tanks not chariots. We're in the complete wrong time period here Okay, okay cast tanks So there you go That's that's my feeling on the thing Fair enough I'm a fan I was gonna say actually it's a funny bit. So Like I'm six one my wife's about five foot really four eleven, but you know, she'll tell people five feet So she saw the the the chick and the dude riding together. She's like, that's us. You have to run them. I'm like, okay I'm like, I'm already sold. You're just giving me more reasons to buy the cool thing that I like. It's my thing Yeah, sure That's great Yeah, so the vanguard pallies pallidors. They got improved what ride the winds etheric used to be Let's see. What was it you had used to be silly that you just stopped there. Yes, you don't need to know what it was I loved it. It was a random dice roll and it was silly and it was bad and now teleport around The place you would ever you'd make a normal move or a retreat you can instead leave and pop up nine inches somewhere It went from something I couldn't care less about to uh to You know Freakin Amazing like amazing. That's an incredible rule. Oh, yes. It is fantastic Somewhere in that book there's going to be retreat in charge Like it will exist. Yeah Okay It's so book. It's it's sorry. It's such a big book, right? Mm-hmm. It's so book But that I'm sure um And so like once you get that that's a that's a beautiful day right there, right? So yeah, yeah, great stuff I'm already thinking like excelsis has retreat in charge. I'm like, okay, I play enough cities And uh, if the lord arcanum On grift chargers still has that I used to take them out trait to get the extra dice Just to go farther And now it's just the teleport to in place of a retreat in charge Like I I got gears turning but I need a book to see what the whole thing is at the end of the day So I see potential. I see potential. I'm excited Yeah, 100 so griff hounds warning cry got improved if an enemy unit Sorry, if an enemy reserve unit or summoned unit Is set up on the battlefield for the first time within 12 Of the griff hound unit you can pick up to three friendly storm cast units only within 12 of this unit To shoot any shooting any shooting has to go into the target You know that reserve unit or that summon unit you can't pick a different target So yeah, rocko. What do you think about that one? I think my lord castleton is little buddy and all of the uh, the Two ballistas and the the nine long strikes I have that now have to be a unit of six And then maybe a unit of three. We're gonna have some options guys call me crazy If you're doing the shoot caster out like uh jack for me rolling ones back in the day Whoo, that's spicy that could be in a in a summoning meta if you're in there And that you know, they need to set up for the charge They need to set up for objectives And you've got a couple heroes bringing the little but you want to bring the lord and parrot in any way You know the lord castleton to give plus one to save as long as that stays that way Is gonna be a big piece for synergies Um Yeah, I think it's a win Yeah, it looks pretty good. Yeah, my answer is you're reading that wrong I hope okay that rule says the following like I know I know that you just read the text none of that text is real Oh, no, okay. Here's what the text actually says All right If you've got this bird Yep And three units of up to three units of shooters Within range of whatever their weapons are Okay near the burbs Yep, then nobody will set up ever Within 12 inches of you Yes, and I love that. That's what it says, which is fine. That's still a good rule Okay, but like no one's going to just I hope it just set up and get shot in the face by like multiple units of of raptors and all that kind of stuff It's just not gonna happen What it means is that you have a much stronger A screen out game right because your screen out bubble is at nine inches 12 inches in storm cast Meaning you're much more alpha resistant if you've got the little griff hounds around to do their their borks Yep, right and yeah, and even better because it's they have to be outside at 12 There's a chance they just might not even be in a range of charge at all Sure, I mean they they wouldn't be yes because they have to be outside 12 So I mean it's fine great easy like that just means like all right if i'm playing storm cast I don't put my life takers in the sky. I put them on the board and then I just charge you Like It will it will necessitate certain plays. It's not a bad thing I'm just saying you're thinking you're gonna get shots out of that You know like never once right like it's that threat Nobody of any kind of like funk with any kind of functional brain is gonna set up in range For you to just shoot them Right in round one and if they know they're gonna do something later in the game. They'll just kill the dumb dogs Right. Yeah, and then they'll drop on you. Yeah, and then it's my dog getting shot and not the unit Yeah, and that's fine. Yeah, like yeah, which again is still great point straight. That's love it That's forcing them to to shoot a non-optimal target again wonderful None of these things are bad. I'm just saying there's like a I think when we read these rules We tend to read them and not think about the consequences of how it's going to change opponent's behavior Oh, yeah, and this you're you're handing something to your opponent that is perfectly within their control Right, like there's no part of that you control beyond the setup No It's gonna be one you're gonna get one time to do that rule right because you're gonna be like, oh, hey We're playing a friendly game. Let's see what that actually looks like in practice And then they're gonna get they're gonna lose their 30 demonets because the next needed more nerfs He's like, yeah, it's my late game summoning guys You're the dog try to get the last objective Because ger ate the other one that was important and then oh my god all 30 of my demonets are dead Huh me Apparently zoo wants to end this meeting in 40 minutes. So that's Or 10 minutes or something. So that's fun. So if that happens Okay Then we're gonna deal with that and I'll make a new meeting I'm gonna do that over here on the side While I make a new I see that telling me yeah, but there's a little remaining time It had no warning about that before it's just let me do that So that's fun. I have that over here on the side in the next 10 minutes while you guys are talking So, uh, yeah somebody pointed out that the right of the winds etheric on the vanguard paladors You have to be more than one inch from all terrain and objectives. So and of course more than nine inch from enemy units Yeah, just to clarify that. Yep. Yeah, good clarification. Again. I'm still a fan of it even with the restrictions. Those are healthy restrictions They make sense You know another thing to make it a bit more fair. I'm fine with that Yeah, definitely And then the last thing we had here vents the dominion cry war cry. Sorry dominion war cry stats and campaign Actually, I missed this article I actually downloaded all the stuff throughout the dominion Yeah, it's cool. They added all the rules specifically for Uh, swamp bogglers and the new storm cast. Oh, okay. Yeah yes Yeah, there you go. Yeah, all the new heroes have it. Um, I I don't So it's uh The orc on naked mole rat down because I it shouldn't be the vultures um, and then, uh, of course everybody but yin drasta And it it's nice, you know, and they actually have the the new vigilore like all the stuff that was previewed Uh, the the special weapon on the annihilators Have a profile on that as well So You know, they do do more damage that that part didn't change From what we would expect because it they'll mirror not perfectly but it'll mirror a little bit um Yeah, it's nice So if you're in the war cry and that's your thing and you have the dominion starter set go go ahead And they also said It might be something for war cry coming on the horizon if i remember right as well So it might be a new season of that which everyone was like, oh kill teams the scammers game getting all the stuff Well, maybe war cry will get a little more too Give them time. They've got an app to roll out Yeah War cry was that what 2019? Yeah, that sounds about right. Yeah, it's more around there. Yeah, it was before it was before covid I I remember there was a time at one point Oh So That's what i've got for the news. I know we've got some events to talk a little bit about Yes, we do. We do that. I'm going to bring it up now. There you go. Cool Yeah So, yeah, this I don't believe this has changed at all since last week everybody But there's what we've got coming up for this weekend and then september You know, we still got face hammer Happening bruce city brawl. It's gonna be 3 000 points a bunch of others Rock, are you gonna get to any events in september? Not september. There might be some local one days that aren't on the list that I might try to go out to I was my next big thing is actually the boys I've got a buddy up in uh, in upstate new york that Wants to do the uh, actually the team tournament Because you couldn't get tickets to the to the the main event. So we might I might for like that saturday I might do A blood bowl, but we're on a waiting list for the the main two-day event on saturday and sunday So we'll see what happens there, but if not, we're we're leaning. He does a little bit of lumen eff I've got some deep kids. We'll do a surf and turf And I have a fun time and then um later in december my event after that is uh, an ocean city maryland shore hammer That's that's farther out. That's yeah, that's um Because I'm going with all the guys from the base of war gamers who my actual gaming club from from uh back when I lived, uh in the Greater philadelphia area Because I was just like you threw a rock over the Delaware border and you and you would have hit me Uh, that's how close I was to fill it was a great place great guys and gals there god There's hundreds of them. They're they're a whole army if they ever formed up properly And they go to all these events up and down the east coast Okay, very cool. Yeah, I don't ever hear much Going on and filly in terms of alas. Well, that's the I mean they they um, they just did summer slaughter Those are the same guys Yep, and then they partnered with martin or lander to do the Atlantic city open Um packs unplugged is another thing. They run the warhammer stuff for they've got killed team 40k. Oh, yeah, no like it was uh, when I was there the regular game of night was on a tuesday And you'd get like 40 people showing up to the game store to play all kinds of stuff Which is funny. Yeah, like you said, but they're so insular and it's like we drive through valley forge Which was a beautiful drive and I'm a history buff and I love it and the drive was great And then you drive out at like like one in the morning, right after you leave and you're just like wow, this is spooky Yeah Ah, but it's a good time Well, that's great, man. So, yeah, it sounds like there's a lot going on. Yeah, uh, One, it's uh, just give a quick rundown, uh, so we had some events over the weekend I mean if folks are really interested, of course, we've got robin Oh, hold on. I'm gonna put a pause on you real quick Okay, word. I guess this meeting's gonna end in like three minutes and 45 seconds Okay So what I'm gonna do is over here, I'm gonna make it we're gonna shut this off. I'll keep talking chat You'll still hear me We're gonna deal with the little thing here because I didn't know this would end at 40 minutes It didn't do it last time. It let me keep going So I just thought it would always let me do that, but it didn't it was only one time when we had three people So I'm gonna end my little call with the two of them bring it up on my other screen And we're gonna and I'm gonna keep talking to you about these events and stuff and while I'm while I'm organizing the new call chat You tell me whether you've been to an event and what are your thoughts on Uh, you going to the event so drop that in the chat right now Hit that like button for technical problems in the middle of the stream. It's all good. Yeah All right gentlemen, so remember me as I was chat frozen. That's right I'm gonna end this and then call you both back with a different thing Okay, we'll be right back in like 30 seconds. Okay. Here we go. Cheers, buddy Cheers guys Mm-hmm Everybody can still hear me life continues That's an annoying noise Now everybody gets to hear a phone Okay, so now we're gonna add somebody else to this there we go. Oh, why didn't you pick up? Let's try it again Oh, it's ringing Hey, there they are. All right. See we're all back folks. It was just that easy now I'm gonna be a tiny little square in the corner, but that's all right. It'll be the two of you Okay, and I'll just deal with being a tiny little square for right now well Okay, we're rocko your phone at this point. That's fine. Just make sure your phone's charged Oh, yeah, I can I can switch over to messenger Over here. Hold on. You're gonna You're good. He'll join back in a second. Isn't this fun? Isn't this just fun? Hey, there he is. We can't hear you now because it's not using your audio Okay, we're okay. There we go. See we're all back I got a real I got a real content creators. Mike guys. It's crazy. It's got a big old button too All right. Oh, Vince is gone. No, it's okay. I'm here. Okay. I'm here because what we're gonna do Is we're gonna make you two smaller. Oh, sorry. Sorry everybody That's the wrong buttons. There we go. There's that Okay, and there's that one. We're gonna talk about a second and there's that one that's up now And then we're gonna come over here So we're gonna grab you guys a little reformer a third of the screen. Yeah, there's some just some live reformatting No issues there Not at all and funny enough now my other camera is working. That's the one built in my laptop That's technology and then we're gonna move me Up here Okay, okay like that and cover Tyler's face Oh, and then I'll be this little square up here There we go. All right You love that super ugly But it's fine for now and I'll fix it for next time Hey, there we go And I'm mirrored too. So that's fun All right, so keep going Tyler you were saying let's talk about events Yeah, so we had a Good number of events over the weekend all around the world king in the north and Norway We had a some in the uk just a series for example We had three good ones in the u.s So just wanted to give a rundown of the top 10 for anybody interested But if you want all the details check out I was saying Robin Owens Monday show that they're always doing their stats center. It is fantastic So Let's start with blue sky summer open 30 players in washington we had Matthew with i'm just gonna do first names Matthew with null root. He went 5 0 the only 5 0 so sylvanas. They are back They are absolutely back. How about that rocko? I well listen man. I I I'm a fan of the trees I you know, I love the laurax. He speaks for the trees and get out of when the trees start speaking tree Is a joke I even say with living city because I just love The the the new version of the tree spirit aesthetic Big fan of it though. I got to say My guy who I've worked with on his list that got second place. I'm very proud of him If you could do the honors. Yes, sir jack ballard one and only really ones with side track I'm mad. It's a good place. Yeah, that's amazing Oh, his list is scary as all get out Yeah, we're gonna do some list trends. Maybe we can get into some of these a little bit later Uh, but just so we got dirk with reichenhorst condemned night hot going for one Yeah, and and third solid showing Yeah, fourth and fifth taker tribe six blister skin. I think a lot of us thought pleasure to courts outside And maybe somebody somebody like Uh, I am blanking uh bill susa Someone like bill, you know, who's a master at playing pleasure to courts really good at the game in general But I mean, there we go. Cody with blister skin another null roots A boulder head piece of chaos making the way in the top 10 and then a host of plisters to round out Pretty pretty good mixer. Yeah It's a healthy meadow when you get a little bit of everything like that and then sylvaneth came in there to take it Yeah, my mind's blown man. I love it. Yeah Gay gay way open the one I went to uh shout out to jeff his wife courtney and everybody involved with that one incredible event Uh, we had mergonc with petra fix elite going the only five oh Uh, taking it out if guys petra fix elite is amazing Uh, I got petra fixed, right? That's what we were saying yeah Ignoring or reducing run by one across the army machine gunning mystic shields from arcan Yeah, we roll saves on the more tech about everything is playable in that book right now including the gash It's a really good army Uh, walker with taker tribe for one getting best general Uh, brice my friend from springfield springfield crew. We had four guys go up all top 10 that pretty well Yeah, brice got best destruction fill up another beast of chaos dark walkers There you go, man that the late deep strike does work Yeah, you got best chaos going four one. We had a host arcanum I was six with best order hagnar Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Did you say the beast of chaos player got best chaos over his over? I know it's an amazing day. It's an amazing day Cats and dogs are just hanging out together now the world is it's it's a new world gentlemen. Yep Boulderhead taker tribe codles claw heavy source warrior and legion of the first prince rounding out the top 10 there Gentlemen any thoughts so far? I mean, I look it's the same thing. Uh It's it's the same thing I would say Uh across the board when you look at all these and we're going to talk about it later It's a tremendous amount of variation Yeah, you know like autumn lotus said to be fair. I wouldn't trust these numbers when people aren't all coming out for games I mean, I disagree like let's say I wouldn't trust the overall stats of percentages yet Because we don't have enough games in for that to look at like win rate and think about that stuff That's fine that I agree with But I think it's absolutely true that we're seeing a much broader meta than we had previously seen in 2.0 just the nature of the game being so much more focused on Like the things like battle tactics and the way you take the um The way that you deal with objectives The reality is is that you can score a win with good play because it's so much of a Like this edition feels like much more of a skill test than anything previous and so if you're piloting You know a lot of different things you can come out on top like that's the simple reality of the thing Right. Yeah, I agree. It was a I was in a one-day tournament local here out of a has a hobbies out in virginia um run by a garret from best coast pairings fame there and he uh Was it my second round a game was actually against a clubmate who was running gargant And it was I forget the name of it, but it's uh the three objectives. It's old shifting objectives and you know, he he took first turn he moved up and with my uh Living cities at when it was my turn. I only could play for one objective, but I played for the primary Um, I chose my battle tactic of like killing a mega gargant. They're killing it You know, so I killed the monster squared my battle tactic took The uh the important objective. I did it with a with a monster myself in the end And all of a sudden I I was either tied or ahead by a point with however the math worked out Right Yeah, I mean that's just that the the game stay closer if you're especially if you're on the new the the good Missions that are more new style scoring They tend to stay closer because it's like you generally score four to six That's kind of where it is like you score four to six. They score four to six You score four to six they score four to six and it's sort of In turn three four when you actually tend to accomplish some kind of points differential is what I tended to notice, right? I agree. I agree So, um You know, it's about making those good trades up to that point stuff like that So, yeah, I I'm encouraged by the fact that we've seen a lot of different Armies reaching into the meta being in top tens showing up in You know, either five or four one brackets things you wouldn't necessarily expect. I think it is pretty a pretty wide meta Yeah, yeah, yeah, and we could probably say Nash convince maybe in the hobby go into a little bit But then, uh, you know shout to jack Armstrong making his return Of course going five. Oh a just serious taking it out thunder lizard Also, to me meadows was the other five. Oh toby had done really well with that double cabbage Uh, a couple word shanners. We're not shaman timbritz two by three pigs He I think he went for one at his last event with that coming in like second He came in second again legion of the first prince. Oh, man. Pretty pretty interesting list. So but yeah Yeah, amazing amazing Friday guys. It's really great Yeah, when you look at all the different there was a lot of tournaments this weekend, right? Yeah, you look at all the top fives top tens whatever, you know, whatever you feel is is reasonable There was a lot of different, uh Uh There's a lot of different armies occupying that space, right? Oh, yeah I mean seeing sylvaneth on top in that That west coast gt Was like man, that was an amazing there's an amazing moment. It was a moment I didn't I don't think any of us thought was necessarily coming, right? And yet here it was right left field came out of there, man Just with with a very different list than what you saw in a lot of the uk stuff Like it wasn't a sort of aoe bomb out of the war song revenue, right? No So now a bunch of a bunch of dry ads stretch a war song revenant But I I can't recall if you have a spell portal or not No, there was no worse on revenant. No drycha. It was all right. There was no worse on revenant. No portal. There was dry Yeah, there was drycha a l'oreal treed ancient dirthu Two branch rates four by ten Yeah, that's right the no kernaugh list that you just look at you get No kernaugh Uh, yeah at any rate. Yeah, it was great. It was great stuff So we'll we'll get into it more when we talk about the the broadness of it But it was a lot of a lot of really good tournaments this weekend Yeah, yeah, and also shout out to uh, my dude, uh, Sean Blake in the chat there Yeah, we're getting trees some love one way or the other. There you go. There you go All right, so gentlemen, uh, any other news anything else we want to cover in the news section? I think we're good. All right In which case then let's get to some pick. Oh the week Okay, so Pick of the week Rocco you want to start us off? Oh sure. Hopefully my camera is now totally gone here. So It's been it has been solid. It was completely zoomed that was doing it for the future. I'm going to embed skype That's what we're going to have to use. I'll now know. Well, that's what we'll be doing from now on So there we are at any rate life continues Uh, talk about it hit me All right So as you can see I'm a man of many hats and uh, it's a literal for me Not just a saying and this is my re-rolling ones hat because I am their community manager for their discord Uh, also if you don't know me, hi, I'm a Rocco. Yeah boy Um, I have my own youtube channel where I teach people how to play warhammer and we go from Very beginner stuff all the way up to tournament, uh tips and tactics And I try to make the video shorter to be like a like a 10 to 15 minute sometimes a 20 minute blurb and set Like a three-hour slug And that way we can be very like No, no play listen I hold the record for the longest rant cast guest too at like six hours We can I could talk to paint drying if we got to go for time And uh, if you want to see me actually, uh use what I talk about So I'm not talking out my butt. Uh, over at the pants mafia aos YouTube channel. I am part of a path to glory there where I'm bringing soul blight grave lords and uh, I I mean, I'm not gonna spoil the last video that just went up but uh, your boy was uh, I was three and oh going into my last video. I I'm Solidly in first place. You got to see if I kept that up there. Hmm. It was a good time That's very nice. I will all that will be linked down below Tyler, what about yourself? What do you got for picking the week? I really liked your recent video Rocco on the Whether to go first or not that's one way that's to that to me 3.0 is that I've had to Break out of the 1.0 2.0 pattern I've always given my my opponent first term If I have a choice just to play with that double because that is much less the case now my experience with 3.0 Oh, yeah, you really sometimes just want that extra command point to to do an extra combo or they You know have a move up or you just walk up onto the point and say like, okay, you can't move me dps Check me. There's yeah, exactly. And then there's battle tactics going into it. There's all kinds of extra moving parts Yeah, but that's later in this episode too. We're gonna be talking about that. We will. Yeah, totally Yeah, so two quick ones flying monkey con. So yeah two tournaments. So the last A few weekends here flying monkey con There was a review of it by the iron realms podcast with buck paul They had charles fox the to just really good discussion kind of an old school Warhammer tournament pod going through their games Enjoyed that. Paul, right? Paul, right? Yeah Yeah, I've helped him with deepkin list before he goes by paul is right on a few different Uh things through his different socials great guy. Yep, great guy great list great player He's he was rocking a double turtle and go trick went for one very scary list Yeah Yep Yeah, he's good too. Which is the best part. He is. Yeah, he's he's very solid. So yeah, that was good. And then Vince, what was my I am drawing a blank on my second pick that I sent you let me look it up I didn't have in front of me. It was paul. This was fun. Was it paul? Yeah, yeah paul. Yeah, yeah I just caught paul conzi's new video radio free hammer haul Breaking down the bow tactics very apropos to tonight's discussion. Yes It was a great video. I watched it too. Also linked down below already My Pick of the week. Yes, indeed My pick of the week is going to be the honest wargamer stat center from this week If you want to hear all about a deep dive of the tournament results that we sort of discussed quickly The lists and all of that of course it is rob and the Owen Jackson Oh my oh and Jackson. What a doll. What a guy getting together to talk about The multitudinous events this weekend and the incredible results coming out of many of them including our Our friend of the show. He's been downgraded to just friend of the show Tom lions who took uh best overall and best painted at nash con. So It was a great weekend for him. Tom had uh, five You know, was it wasn't a bunny run? I'll say that much. He had some he had some tough games And uh, he was playing ko which as you know, he was firmly behind to being others So bad the current meta and there's no way I can actually win and Run in his mouth And then he goes five and oh Now certainly he was aided by the two list format of of nash con which I do stand behind and think More tournaments should adopt. I think it's absolutely the right way Like you want to know how to balance the meta you create the two list format That's the bottom line Like it is one of the easiest ways to balance the meta because it stops skews dead Because you can have anti skew in the lists, right? It's just like it. So anyways Uh So tom won it would all with ko. Uh, he had a convincing victory. He was something like 11 points over his nearest competitor for his first place win So it was great. It was a very happy moment for him To to get that get both of his swords So he did those are real freaking swords. That was david's trophies are real swords. Yes I I need to go to the midwest who would all y'all are doing. I'm just playing for money by me. This is just Money and I won a city's book at one of the tournaments. I won which is what started that whole path, but man swords Uh, yes the somebody asked uh frog arm asked what is the two list format? Sure. So I'll just explain very quickly nash con The tournament we just did last weekend uses a two list format and somebody said it's like war machine hordes That's very apropos. Um, effectively you can bring two lists. They have to be from the same faction Though they may contain different units. They may have any change from as minor As a single artifact or something like that being different up to completely different units and constructions And what that allowed people to do was have different sort of lists For example, one of tom's lists had go track and one did not Which was you know, like go track is very powerful, but he does have weak spots There were a couple people running drac foot there for example and go track is not a winner Against that build No, um, but also it's still powerful because the drac foot person then knows exactly what list tom is going to play Right like when tom shows them these two lists the drac foot player goes I can play whatever list I think is best against the one. I know you're playing Because you're definitely not taking your go track list No So at any rate it was uh, it's a great format. It allows for if you want either a minor change or a transformative sort of sideboard and Um, the you know, some people you can still maybe have a skew list And maybe somebody has a normal list But you have better chances to counter them because you don't have to go with one list It does just provide for more interesting meta as I looked up and down the the tables There was just a lot more There was a lot of variants In those top, you know, eight tables of what all was playing um, and uh And so it was it it creates sort of an interesting situation um people would normally have sort of uh Yeah, people normally have had took sort of two different lists that were interesting in two different ways Right Um, so yeah at any rate, um, I see some people saying like I'd encourage excuse I understand your the the argument there in this case What we've seen is that it either either most people bring Pretty minimal shifts and run kind of be hard behind one list Uh, or or they use one to be like a specific to do a specific thing And then they use a different list to do a different thing, right? Like that's kind of how it comes down Um, and so like generally they'll have one that's asking a hard question And one that's giving a hard answer is often how it works out, right? Yeah, but anyways, we found it to be very very very positive So there you go. Yeah, that's crazy. Oh, sorry. I just want to say one thing. Yes crazy horse I did realize I sit the midwest. They're all midwesterners I'm so sorry. Tennessee is this dirty south Also, it's jacob barry there. So I really shouldn't forget where it is. Sure. There were there were somebody said What's the archion per table ratio? I believe there were Uh, seven archions the venue and seven go tracks are six archions and seven go tracks something like that over 64 players um the the person who took best chaos and third overall had Archion in one of their two lists and was my round five game So there you go because we were we were effectively playing for third from where we were I think On table three Yeah, I was just going to say that I On paper I think it's easy to think that the two List format would lead to more skews and would just generally be a net negative And but I agree with vents. I mean, that's not what we've seen over the the years of the data and information coming out of nash con And so yeah, uh, it's it's at least worked at nash con I don't we haven't seen this two list format at many tournaments So maybe there would be some new information that would come to light if we saw more tournaments You know something like the macro view of it would change but but so far it's been it's been quite positive And and just as a question because it's not an ITC event, right? I don't know. It is not so it's not really drawing that kind of a crowd like you go in there to try to win a freaking sword Which is very cool. It seems like even though it's a tournament Maybe a little bit more relaxed share the lists are hard Because you still get in the archons and the go tricks, but it seems to attract a certain kind of crowd Sure And I think that that works in its favor I know it's in my round two I was playing against a marathi go-trek dock list and Jacob berry was like a table or two tables down from me and in the middle of the game He was like, oh come on and he ripped off his shirt and then was playing shirtless and tiny bike shorts for the rest I had him at aco. He's a trip man. He is he he took best sports again. He wins best sports like he's I Like like it's his job. He is a he is a unique competitor. Anyways, okay So, uh, yes, check out the honest wargamer. That's our picks of the week Right on okay We're gonna close that so that doesn't beep anymore because that's really annoying And uh, yeah, we're gonna then move on to some hobby time All right gentleman glad I just fixed my camera indeed Rocko, what do you've been hobbying on? What's what's on your table? Tell me about your hobby time So like I was so I was also just a part of the animosity campaign with a bunch of narrative stuff going on which was a great experience and it Got me to do more of my writing because I'm also known for my short stories and stuff But it also got me to doing like little conversions on my deepkin And nice little potato ish cam I did a like the the squig the squid the squid face coming out of my eye the line to be an eldritch horror My deepkin is painted to be the uh, the horrors of the deepkin that fun little Like black black and white with a sin city like a red as an accent color from blood dripping everywhere kind of style and it's definitely been helping me, uh get my button gear And that's why some of my tournaments Like I said, I was looking out in November December because I I got a private paint all that That's not my my strong suit in the hobby, but I found a nice my nice paint scheme that works for me That's a lot of dry brushing that um, it works And I'm happy for it. Come on very nice. That looks thank you. Love it Uh, Tyler, what about yourself, man? What would you uh, yeah, what uh, you you went to a tournament this weekend Yeah, as you mentioned you took best order. Wait. Well done. Well done. Thank you, sir. Yeah Yeah, so I was one darn more tech guard away from top table round five, but it's not like a very similar experience To you vans But yeah, just couldn't yeah that patch facts amazing. Yeah daughters came they you know It's only the mortal wounds that you have a choice. So Well, we were playing in veins of gir and I was just playing conservatively playing for round four and five When I know Went in on rounds four and five going to get the priority in five Which definitely probably would have sealed it as well and just came up one more tech short So hey, it happens good game against more gong great player And uh, but yeah, let's see. I played stormcast to SOB to suns tribes Uh, savage they're brutal on savage games Yeah, they are that that kick in the four point turning into two point. We were playing it I don't know if everybody's playing it this this way, but we were playing it where any objectives in the middle Even if you hold off like two or three in the case of against giants, you're only getting two points You don't get the correct way to play. Yes, that's You're not doing two per objective. It's not doing two per objective. Yeah So that that was rough because it was Very difficult to keep giants Uh, it was walker. I think he's a viewer of this show Good guy. He played giants incredibly well. He was running the gate breaker and a crack and As a as a power repair and just yeah, I think the mistake I made I'm accustomed to giving if I have the choice Giving my opponent top of two when raffi is still fully buffed And I probably should have taken it and just actually pinned him in his deployment And I think that would have helped in terms of the scoring sequence um Few things kind of got off that game, but he played it really well and I almost clawed it back But not quite so but no, uh, awesome tournament Uh, we'll get into a few things with it that that were done differently than traditional You know so far out of the book 3.0. Yeah, I wanted to comment on but yeah, no good time. I'm excited Yeah, for myself, uh, I did not get as much time to hobby this week as I was hoping Because I was at a tournament. So I went I went to nash con obviously as we mentioned Ended up going 3-1-1. So I did get the the almost impossible to achieve draw Ironically it was against, uh, Noah who is a fantastic player. He's He's on like the etct or world's team or something like that. He's like their captain. I think I don't I don't remember exactly how it is He's somebody with that who's involved with worlds where they have to go and do the 2.0 thing I'm not tapped into that. Yeah, so Um, but he was a great player. He was also running cities of sigmar tempest I So it was it was a tempest I off, but he had the dwarves bridge 420 blaze it list Um, he never bridged the dwarves. So that was you know, I did manage to hold him off that Uh, and it came down to a hard draw Uh, so that was a good city's off Like a complete tie same number of grand strategies same number of battle tactics exact same score Down the line draw That is really impressive that happened that way. It was uh, it was a heck of a game Uh, yeah, my my my run was fec Uh, uh, so it went fec then marathi go track dock then cities tempest I 420 blaze it then, uh squiggard The boss of jorke And then uh, and then host of the yeah, the dude was doing real well Um, I think after so I beat him in round four and I think his round five was against my round three opponent So he had to play two tempest dialysis in a row. Oh, which was unfortunate probably for him Yeah, um, and then my last round was against anthony trant nelly who is the I believe top ranked itc player in the country right now Yes, he is you had to run yourself there man. And he is an amazing player and a super nice guy and uh, definitely given david Some run for for the most attractive man in american, uh, warhammer. Let me just say I mean, he's That's that sucklage there. I don't know what's all that's all the ground I understand that jack lately on his last video there Look, there's there's we'll we'll do the calendar show sometime. Okay. Okay, uh, so the um But he was a great player. He was running a host of the host of the ever chosen. No knights the empty throne Sorry, there we go. Yeah, uh, he's trying to nice the empty throne. So you had, you know, the six baron guard This is in power in numbers where if there's battle line, you can't take the objective My battle line was three by five outriders. His battle line was 20 marauders 20 marauders and 20 chaos warriors With marauders having their own pocket. We're trying to buff them So It was at a bit of a downside, but it was a it was a real Really fun game. I think he made a comment. I'll paraphrase him here slightly But I enjoyed this comment. He ended up winning the game. It was 14 13 to him. He won at the end Uh, he won on a single priority roll that came down. He rolled a three I needed to roll a three to retain priority because I had gone first in that turn if I had rolled a three plus Then I could have burned both the points and I would have won the game because he was out of battle tactics to achieve and uh And I would have I would have got there was no more those are the last two objectives on the board There was literally nothing else to score. I had already killed out his grand strategy I was going to accomplish mine. So I would have won but I rolled a one against his three He won the priority he burned all points and he beat me by one point So such as life, you know all came down to a single nice roll Um, but it was funny. He said something to the effective when I first started list I thought it was going to be easy because your list looks like crap And I said, hey, I'm gonna understand, you know, it's uh, that's that was the nature of this insane tempest I think I put together but uh, but it was fun and it was a very unique list and I was it was a lot of Uh, it was a very interesting list to run. So I had a great time Anthony was like Super nice super gracious incredibly great player like a duh I'd play him again in warhammer anytime. He ended up getting my favorite game vote because I mean It was just like it was to the nines man the whole time. Like it was it was a game five of game fives. So Nice can't complain about that And so, uh, I I'm sure that you know that that list is Scary as because those those those uh, six varanguards are just about impossible to kill Like it's it's 30 wounds on a two up save ignoring a lot of rend for most of the game Yeah, you know when you put it that way. Yeah, okay. I can see some issues Yeah, I mean they're just because they're usually like anywhere from plus two to three to save most Yeah, yeah, and they can get access to a spell ignore two, right? Oh, yeah, they had two spell ignores. They have a golden spell ignore on their shield and then zincha also gives them another spell ignore So yeah, it's you can't hit him with magic. Yeah, so they're they're basically magic proof Um, so they're they're not easy to bring down Uh, anyways, it was a great game and a great time and now I'm back to painting my Uh, storm rats. That's what we're on about now. So uh, here's the next one. He's very early in progress I've have I have three done Nice number four So I'm getting close To a whole unit Once I have five I'll have a unit done. Won't that be exciting? Hey, man, I'm a fan of skig, you know, if we ever go back to the game in hiatus Blur send me. It's ready. They're coming together slowly. It takes a while I've worked the recipe and I have it down to about 12 hours per per model now. So Without the base. So that's pretty reasonable. That that seems doable Hmm, that's wild So more power to you, man. I like I said, I found a way to dry brush my stuff to make it look That is I'm known for playing games not painting and that is that is pressure you got on you Uh, it's all good. It's all good. So, um, yeah, there I really like the scheme and I really love how it's turning out Although it does take a it takes oodles of time, but that's fine. So again, it's all worth it It's all worth it for my beautiful scaven rat cast. They are you do such a good job, man Oh, well, thank you. That's not I wasn't fishing for a compliment, but I appreciate that very much All right, uh, okay Uh lay Lay, I'm gonna say lay, but rigby says I haven't played since third Ed Vince's channel has dragged out my old minis from the attic. That's fantastic Yeah, that's beautiful. Will the rat cast feature in any future videos? Oh, yes, I can't do this much work on an army and not make videos out of it Like making videos takes a lot of time. So Yes, they were there to be in some videos. You bet Very nice. Very nice. Uh, all right. So gentlemen, shall we get to our main topic this week? Absolutely I'm down. All right So our thoughts so far Uh, let me go ahead and grab that timestamp All right All right, so cool Thought so far on aos 3.0 before we get into any specifics without going into anything we're going to cover I just want to do a quick temperature check here Uh on a scale of one to ten One being you hate it and wish we had never made this edition move and are angry about everything 10 being you are Five seconds away from hitting leave meeting and going and wanting to play another war hammer game right now Where do you find yourself after your experiences in 3.0 thus far? Rocco hit me eight Eight, okay Yeah, I am I've been enjoying it. I've been enjoying the extra tactical depth of all these extra decisions you have to make You know whether to to do the the fall back in the movement phase, you know trying to set up better unleashed hells trying to Go where with armies and builds With the uh, do you go the one drop? Do you go with some of these new battalions? I'm big on hunters of the heartlands myself. So a lot of my lists end up being four drops Some people do the double battle regiment to do extra stuff. Some people fish for all the different artifacts There there is a lot more We can get crunchy with it And if you want to do that You're free to and if not throw it on the battle regiment and then get into the crunch somewhere else Yeah, yeah, I want to know your number two by the way chat hit me with that number drop it in the comments While you're already typing why not move your mouse and hit the like button too You're already typing a number. You're so close. Just hit that's it's right there Absolutely, and don't forget to subscribe too. Those are these are all good things you could do They're all buttons roughly in the same area as where you're typing a comment Uh, tyler, where are you? Yeah, and eight feels about right. Maybe eight and a half not sure. I'm quite a nine, but um, Love in the addition. Yeah similar rocker like Think you know the bloody comments. I'm not sure, you know, like what's the one one and a half that's not there yet I think it's Some of the problematic units, you know, like there definitely are, you know, some of the edges are pretty rough right now But uh, the games have been incredible. I've played 10 tournament games so far last few weeks yet to have a loss that wasn't incredibly close And part of you know part of it is I'm not finishing all five rounds I'm getting to like round four in some of these games, which is on me I've been known to not play quite fast enough particularly early in my first round So that's yeah loving loving the addition Yeah, I could say you know say a little more later about it, but I think it's pretty pretty fascinating Okay. All right right on I will say I'm at a solid eight as well. It's a it's a universal number across this this uh, this cast There are things that I think are temporary like I want the FAQ. Where are we at with our seven week slash four week FAQ Seriously release the FAQ my goodness gracious I'd love it if we got some battle tones at the same time, maybe not Because I'm not sure I'm going to love everything that's in those battle tones with all the grand strats and battle tactics That might be delivered, but I guess we'll see on that So, you know, there are some edges there. There are some things I worry about stuff like the complexity especially for newer players Especially when combined with certain armies those are real challenges that I I'm not sure they're they've really directly answered And and that I think are our problems but But on the whole I have like I mean I went played five games this weekend got back and I could have played another game the next day You know like it was that's the dream. It was it. I really enjoy it. I really love the I don't know. I really love how all the different units feel what I'll say Like I I will say that I feel like I'm playing a lot more interactive game, but that comes to the cost Yes That's the answer Uh, but yeah solid eight looking through the chat I see lots of looks like lots of basically six through nines There's a couple fives floating around, but I didn't see anything really too much lower than a five. So that's good stuff. That's great Uh, okay, so good point nine spencer. Perfect. Yes. I see I see lots of sevens eights. Nines. I lost stuff like that Uh, so okay rock on that's good. I think I think it's really solid We just need to sand down a few edges and I think we're in a good place here like maybe by releasing an FAQ No, that's fair that you know and Also, if that new book could drop so I can say or see if this video I want on everybody's favorite ally the Night azeros to re-roll ones to hit still has that rule that'd be cool. Yeah, we're all we're all waiting I look that's just the thing I'm happy to keep my night of zero so letting me re-roll ones for as long as they want to let me do that Because I have a feeling that rule is going away No, no that it's it's gone gentlemen. Look if it's plus one to hit everything within 10 inches instead I'm gonna be like yep fine. I'm good. Sure right cheaper. Hurricane them. Okay. Yeah, exactly like hello hurricane. I'm number two Now it's a lumen arc for me. I just I just I see no issues here whatsoever. So sounds good All right You guys You didn't remind me about the the potential for gacha hammer. Remember hammer is never higher never been higher In my in my experience like I've never had to play. I'm gonna pick out like Throw them up to like 30 tokens playing Daughters of Cain Two things I mentioned to events going to this show is that I'm gonna start writing out my opponents battle tactics for their turn And putting it right in front of my face. Oh, I do that all the time. It's it's yes I have a notebook. I bring a legal pad with me Stuffed out Oh man Yeah, there's definitely more of an element of member hammer of gotcha hammer like, you know, um Dose green said should we talk about complexity creep yet? I mean not yet But it's gonna be a topic like we mentioned it a little in our big challenges of 3.0 show Yes, because like we we did talk about it already What I really want to save that for is again once we start seeing all these different battle tomes and what they contain And you know, like do they do the appropriate things and simplify some of these choices out? Or do they uh, or do they go the opposite direction? I have a feeling. I know which way will end up Uh, but you know, I'm hopeful It's question mark there. There you go. That's the appropriate question mark Uh, but yeah, I mean that's like But we'll see but we'll see Yeah, all right. Yeah, um psi 915 says third feels too much like 40k right now with new missions PSI, I'd love to know what you mean by that. I don't that's I don't know 40k well enough Uh, that's me like the score one score two score more kind of thing and then you have they pick secondaries Just on the objective scoring or what I'd be interested. I could see that Uh, all right, so Yeah Let's talk about some so what we're gonna do in this show is our thoughts. We've broken our thoughts into several different topics Okay, so just things that we thought deserved either a fresh look or something like that So the first one here is missions Uh, or battle plans or scenarios or whatever you want to think of them as that's fine I have separated them here in the most sort of simple way possible into good neutral and bad In my estimation after playing through all of these I have played everyone in the book now most of them probably multiple times Yeah And because I'd say I'm after the tournament I know I'm over 30 games, but I don't know how many more beyond that So, you know, it's somewhere between like probably 30 and 40 plus games Uh, yeah same. Yeah, and throw in some of the new path to glory stuff too. I got some thoughts on that But that's not what we're here for Right, right. So the point is we've got some we've had a chance to round this all out Right to play through all this stuff to really get an experience Yeah, and and I divide them up into good is savage gains first blood Feral flurry the vice marking territory and power struggle although I'll say Marking power struggle needs an asterisk because that's Assuming we get an FAQ answer so that the mission is actually playable with a sense of rules that we can understand And working territory is the worst for gotcha hammer Maybe or maybe second worst because tell the tell the people what's the game Well, you just play bad if you do that. Oh, yeah. Oh, it's getting good Yeah, yeah Marking territory is obviously a new knife to the heart where the combination of side shift Plus the way that the the mission wins out where you major victory is, you know, somebody takes a Somebody takes a point in round two They control three points. It flips to round two. They gain they they get priority They're just going to go second remove yours. They win. It just suddenly happens. Hey, hey guys, don't let your Play conservatively enough builds Sure, there are ways to answer it, but it's like again, that's a very unfriendly scenario, right? Like that is a So it is what it is The vice is fun. The vice is super fun. My problem with the vice is that like If you have a mega monster This is my only problem with the vice like we let's we let me let me read the whole People can see the whole list. So let's just start going through these for once I'm gonna let's talk about our thoughts on each of these just quickly Savage gains we need the FAQ answer. It should be two if you hold, you know any not two for each That's how it was ruled at Nash con sounds like it was ruled of your way at that The correct way in your game as well or your term as well, tyler Do you have any other problems with savage gains? I think it's a Fantastic scenario top to bottom like giants are super strong in there admittedly because they can kick things around like that's not You know, it is what it is, but I think it's a great scenario Yeah, yeah 100%. Yeah, I it's Yeah, rocker. What do you think? I you know, and I had it ruled the other way where the middle objectives were each worth two Um, and it was still fun. It was still fun playable. It it was a good time Um, no complaints. It was I played, uh, my living cities versus, uh Nurgle the the ones were they I when they died in melee on a two up they blow up and I actually had a frost phoenix Just hold the line So well with that nigglin wound trait and it I was just just stole every objective. I never died I was never in threat of dying. It was a great time Yeah, nice nice Uh first blood So so PSI did say the hold hold many hold more and the battle tactics feels too much like you and your opponent Are not playing the same mission which is similar when it's interesting because my experience has been exactly the opposite Uh, like in my estimation the hold one hold two hold more was the best thing they did Because it keeps the scores contained all the missions that play like that are actually to me the good missions because They like what tends to happen is round one you'll score four to six You're trying to eke out small advantages. You bring down a monster You know what you or you complete your battle tactic with a monster or something like whatever, right? You're trying to eke for that one point But points remain relatively close in the good scenarios, you know round one two usually even three Right, you don't get blowouts where somebody can just run up the clock You know like super high and then you're just like, oh, I guess I can't mathematically win this like that just very rarely happens In the good base scenarios and that's because of the one two three One two more I should say Scoring system right where you can score one or two or three points off the the main objectives And what I found is it kept games interesting and even it kept people playing and playing for the win Even when they had reduced resources it gives you a chance to come back more Like it just felt good also like the ability to yeah pay attention to your opponents battle tactics and deny them Again feels really good. We'll talk a little bit more about battle tactics and strategies in a moment Okay first blood basic scenario Like it is the basic templatized scenario of this edition I have no issues with it whatsoever other than the fact that they added the whole vantage point thing Just to make it feel like it had something going on And my honest answer is like you don't actually need to care about it. It doesn't actually matter I've never once like if I happen to have the vantage point cool if I don't I don't care Yeah, like I just move on with my life and go about scoring my battle tactics Exactly like a command point is not worth actually disrupting your battle strategy for now Yeah, I find that one to be the the best of the three objectives in the middle or one of the best at least Yeah, I like I like the Space that we have between us. There's quite a quite a bit of space between the deployment zones, which is a Because yeah, because it's on the 22 because it's on the diagonal. It's on the diagonal. Yeah, okay, it's the three blocks on the Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep So that's that's been nice getting a little more space in there. Yeah has has been has been cool So yeah, big fan of that one. Yeah, I agree the way that that one spreads you out Actually means you've got quite a no man's land In there and so the three objectives because they're also on the hypotenuse Right and like that's why veins of Ger and tectonic interference. The other the other like primary sort of Three ones Are in the control for me one. They're very random This is not really skill testing and two. They're only 11 inches apart Right in there or sorry, uh 15 inches apart. I thought just 15 inches apart and they're just too close Right, whereas the the vertical being on the hypotenuse actually makes a big difference Yeah, because you get a lot more space in between the two given especially where you start at And and I'll be honest I wasn't the biggest fan of star strike to start with because I just had the You know and it it's one of those recency biases for me where it's just like every time I play it This happens, but I swear I could control two thirds of that board and they just have a board edge And that is where all of the objectives would land And now with veins of Ger and it's there What was it? It's a you roll a seven. It's dead metal. It's like two through six seven is dead middle and then eight through 12 is other side. Yeah so I Yeah, they're trying to address it so it doesn't Seem as random and there's only nine spots that could land But I'm with you with it being neutral still. I just Yeah, ferro 4a to me is actually one of the standouts. It might be my favorite scenario in the addition Oh, why honestly because it's a six objective scenario. It forces you to spread out Um unlike stupid power in numbers. You can only burn one objective per turn That is a good trick. That is actually makes you really think about what you're burning and win and how right? Yeah Um, just the nature of ferro 4a. It's a really well designed scenario, right? 22 inch no man's land in the middle Uh, like it it's just it's so solid in how it plays Because you really have to like think about your tactics. When are you pushing? When are you not? Uh, I love it. I think ferro 4a is to me the absolute standout. It's super fun Yeah, so yeah, I agree. Yeah, we talked about events after the show dan You know, I told you, you know, we could two after after playing it that it would be in my top five Just what it does to the game and yeah, it's it's the six objective done really well I think that might be a nice change or fix to power numbers Is to simply remove the ability to burn all the objectives and power numbers that that would help out That went a lot just mimic what we have with ferro 4a in that regard. No, I wouldn't complain I uh That was my one law. It was in the one day tournament. I just played the power in numbers was the game three It was actually a tempest dive versus my living city and I got double turned horribly. I stopped the bridge, but you know what? It was we were so close He could still run up his dwarves and then double turn and be before 20 blazing on the on the sand still in the next turn Yeah, so he didn't care and that uh, if I had won the priority I just coming off the table edge take his back three objectives very easily, you know go about my business And god, I think I I rolled a five. He rolled a six and it's like, okay That's cool. We'll just play for battle tactics and stuff because they the way the scoring worked in the tournament If you still scored all your extra stuff, you did good I got fifth out of 20 just from getting all my extra battle And uh, I nicked him enough. He didn't win. He got second Yeah, you know that worked nice. Yeah, the vice. I really like a lot It's the longest dead zone in the middle at 24 inches Because it still has like the sort of old school old map deployment zone because it can do that because it's lengthwise It's easier to play lengthwise if you're still using the same size general table on a smaller board as it were Like we had very generous space in between the tables, which was Wonderful at Nashcon. You could actually like be comfortable set your army up somewhere have some place to You know to like right and roll your like to have your your extra stuff off table. You're you're measuring devices and things Oh jeez. I like I just I I know to those are always cramped for space But man, I'd rather have 20 less people at the tournament if it meant we all had room to play comfortably So I guess COVID silver lining. I don't know. Um I hear you. I hear you. So but the problem my only problem with the vice is if you have a sort of unkillable character If you you're sort of archaons and go treks and things like that They are they basically say I get all the points return four and five Yes, because I'll go sit here in the middle and you can't come touch me Because if you come near me, I'm going to obliterate you right like I will just build up my whole army around whatever I've got Left will buff the monster character and sit around them. And uh, if you come near me you die, right? Yeah So like it's it's interesting in how it moves and how it forces you to spread It definitely rewards movements in you know, like movement Capability mobility, I guess is what I'd say in round three But in round four or five it rewards just like hey, I need to sit still and kill anything comes near me So you have to kind of think about that in advance, right? And like can I run up the score in some way in those earlier rounds? That's that's what I had done by the way because he had that city's player with the 420 blazer that I was talking about that I was against also had go trek in their list with all the iron Greeks Right, so I was like well, he's gonna own the vice point in turn four and five So I was like I went to great distances to take his point away In two turns or whatever so that way I could have I could get the score one score two score more Right So Whereas I knew my points were still well protected and he couldn't get at them, right? Um, so anyways that kind of stuff And you had fly high on your boats right to play that that teleporting reposition game too. Well, there's that. Yes There's the fly high on the boats. There's you know, like super fast the right gyro copters and Outriders and stuff like that who can you know go real far and fast anyways The only negative I've heard on this one is when you get match ups that you have say two melee armies That are kind of similar and they're standing and looking at each other. Right. Yeah, I could see that Yeah, I've heard some of those instances, but in general, you know, I more often than not you're gonna get match ups that have enough Rock paper or you know rock paper scissors to them You got a shooting army Therefore the melee army needs to go after them as opposed to just staying staying around in any shot Or you know, you've got like I played iron jaws versus suns and I didn't want to wait until round four To try to compete against suns in the middle of the board So that meant I need to get my dps check passed by round three. So I went in hard You know, I started going in round two and then went in really hard round three and and just yeah It's kind of I'm seeing more things like that. I was worried about this one But yeah, there seems to be enough nuance and yeah, like for the most part pretty pretty intriguing Yep, I agree Uh, we already talked a little marking territory in its downsides power struggle. It needs the FAQ Uh, on the neutral side, Banezaker and tectonic interference again There's sort of three on the horizontal in the middle that already is a problematic setup And as well then they also have this random element where it's just like, oh, you accidentally lost the game You know, you played smart you tried to cover your spaces, but you can't cover the whole board I mean just the nature of this world, right? Like that's just if you're you can cover the whole board easily You probably already won the game right? It's very rare that you can just like spread out cover everything uncontested And you can just be like, oh, I played really well, but then this die rolled and it was like oops Oops, all berries lost the game, you know, like I yeah You know, there was nothing really you could control I I controlled as much of the board as I theoretically good without instant losing And then I lost and right on that table edge, man. There it is. I controlled two thirds of it every tournament That style of the game comes in and I'm just like no Can't do it. Yeah, but uh Yeah, and then uh power numbers again. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. I was just gonna say, yeah, I'm veins like I I get it and I was talking about this earlier that I definitely have a bias against castle armies Which is kind of ironic because I mean like daughters of kane is a very castley type army for the most part So, but you know, I I like that it does push Castle armies. Sure. Although there are other missions that push castle armies, which is good I do I certainly find veins more intriguing than tectonic interference Because tectonic is simply the three in the middle, which does generally reward, you know, fire slayers Or, you know, nergal name your pick hanging out in the middle putting bodies up a blocking up a bunkering But yeah, I I don't know. I I still think I would still probably put veins Like low goods like it wouldn't be among my first five choices But would happily see it in a pack especially if it's within that category of consideration with say the power numbers And feral feral foray As the the missions that have the six objectives Those those are starting you out as well. I kind of see it playing that role And I mean look, I you know, I played obr He would have been in a tough spot if the objective had landed on the far right But he had enough in that army to where he could have contested it. It's just that he was waiting He he wasn't equitably distributed with his power So he could he had some choices that he could have made to do that a little bit more. Sure. Sure. Yeah. Yep Survival the fittest. I don't have many thoughts on it's just it's Fine It's fine Yeah, it's it's like super neutral. I don't I don't particularly love it. I don't particularly hate it It's like the most neutral of the neutral ones for me I don't I don't have much to say on it. I mean tyler any thoughts on it. I I literally mine is like it's fine You know, actually, I haven't even played this one. Have you guys played it rock? Are you getting games in with this one? Uh, I did once early on and it was so memorable. I couldn't even tell you what happened Yeah, I just I don't like the vanilla and pray chosen thing and it's like it's such a silly mechanic and Oh that one. Yeah, you score the button for killing the yeah Yeah, it just it to me it screams like it's a narrative game Right. I don't doesn't it though it like if this was a narrative scenario, I'd be like, yeah, this is perfect This is what I want to be doing. It just I don't it feels too goofy too clever. Whatever you want to say by half Yes, yes, like if this was like they did like a like a leftist campaign book like with uh But in ger we're in thandia or whatever you pronounce it the strategy names, you know, we're hunting down every every orc because Craig knows is coming down to kill my my beloved dragons and drakes and dracoffs and draca lions. How dare he those cats were great Uh, I would love it in a book with that as a little campaign pack thing. Yep Uh power in numbers. I grow to hate more and more every day Every time I play it. I hate it a little more I just find it to be a super problematic scenario Like and it's not just because it was my round five where I lost by one point It's because like it's because of the fundamental Misalignment that happens where some armies have really tremendously good battle line That they want to take in mass numbers that are nearly impossible to shift Yes, and it's like, okay. Well as long as those are alive, you can't take the point That's it, right? Like you're not going to overwhelm them now Some armies can still come in and do really well there, you know Hey, a taker tribe is going to love marching in with their battle line 30 counting mega Isn't that a great day for them, you know But because they can just walk up take it from you burn it Right and that's my other problem with power in numbers is that you can just burn any number of objectives you want There's no actual reason like if you The way the points work out if you hold it into turn three unless you're positive You're gonna hold it to turn five. You should just burn. Yeah, because it's one two four nothing eight Right is how the math works Right and so it's like it it it leads to these really weird math jumps In your scoring where you like you think you're in a good place But you miscount it and then all of a sudden they burn one Wait, you burned yours for well, hold on if I burn mine then but if I I'll get two But if we till next time I get four But then if they hold this then they can get four But if I can't move this then they could burn for eight and it's just like uh And then your brain explodes, right? And then battle tactics come into play too because if you burn all of them too early You're like wait and then I then I drop a couple battle tactics Oh, I didn't do my grand strategy wait Did they just win without ever getting to hold a point to burn? Yeah, so it's just it's a weird scenario That just leads to weird math and I hate it more and more every time I play it Because of the sort of delta of some armies, you know, like some armies you can play and you're like Hey, I'm loving this all day and all night, right? I just this is so this is so easy And uh and then some of them you're just you feel like you're you're nailed to the wall from minute one Yes Yes And that's not because necessarily the way you built your list. It's just you don't have there the tools don't exist in your army to make that choice right So rocko, I have thoughts on this one, but why don't you go? What what do you think about power numbers overall? Well, you know like I was saying that actually the last time I played it really was they they took all the objectives burned them early And then couldn't score battle tactics. So I almost went in the end Uh that that actually happened. It was hysterical. Uh But it Again, it's it's a haves and have nots. It's it's something where if it's in a pack known beforehand It can affect list building. Yep where but you know like I'm city So I'm like, okay, and I I I do have a frost phoenix and 20 phoenix guard. I I love this normally Uh and also someone who can teleport 30 iron drakes that can shoot all my phoenix guard I can't roll enough four ups in the world man Um And it you know, it's it's one of those things where elite armies are going to struggle Unless your gargants and you count as 30 models because then it that it doesn't matter You know your hand battle line Yeah, yeah So rocko if you're let's say you're gonna adapt con which normally never releases the Missions in advance and you know that power numbers may be a possibility Is that changing your list? Is that changing how many battle line units or the amount of battle line you're putting in your list? so for a lot of people That you know, usually you just take the three and you go on but for for me. I've since The last ghb came out that put emphasis on battle line I always try to put an extra unit of battle line anyway just have four where if it is Something like like this power numbers would come up even as a thought I would be like, okay cool I forgot one unit of like say like a fast calvary thing if it's deep kidding on bringing eels if it's cities, you know, I I would love the outriders and tempest I And it's something that I could threaten just by my presence being there You know, it's the it's the storm cast thing from before where it's like Oh, the griffon is now just an area of denial bubble Just the threat of that being there like that threat if I have the force battle line I can move up in a grass if I need to you have to deal with that Is why I and I've just kept that mindset the whole time So personally I I'm sneaking an extra battle line in if I can Even with my at my living city because again, I could pop out from the sides You know when the trees start speaking tree and all of a sudden you got well now with The coalition rules. I can't do it with dryads Or a tree maybe I can't do it with it won't count for my battle line, but it is a battle line There's an FAQ question Yeah, so Yeah, yeah So in that case, yeah, you know I'm still if it if it's a possibility if I know the the torrent organizing like yeah, man screw power in numbers I'm not telling anybody, but you know, it's like, yeah, we're not doing it. I'm like, okay I won't think about it, but because it's in that ecosystem I still got to look at it. Yeah, I have a simple answer for you, Tyler Sure, if I thought I could get away with switching something without losing any potency of my list In which case I'm a have because I have great battle line. I could have taken anyways Right like so sure if I happen to be playing in an army where I can choose different units that happen to be Battle line and not diminish my list Right, like if I'm in daughters or something where I've just got all the good choices in the world and most of them I can make battle line in my army Right in the ways I would want Sure, maybe I get rid of five Lifetakers or something and end up with an extra unit of of Or you know an extra unit of snakes of some kind or or witches or whatever right as different kinds of chaff Maybe oh, yeah, did that materially change like did I bring a more balanced list because of that? No, right, which is where you're driving with this right But but the answer is I'm not going to materially change my list if just like I'm not taking bad units Okay Just because I need more things that say the word battle line on them Because then overall I'm not I'm not going to cut off my nose to spite my face Right. I got four other games. I'll make do Yeah, you know Like like I said, I played with three by five outriders on this You know, I did that I chaffed with everything except the battle line Yeah, right They became the most sacred thing and they sat at the back I had heroes and shadow coppers and crap up front that I didn't care about losing Yeah, right. Yeah, and so like it made me play different But it didn't make me list build any different because I didn't have any other good choices Hmm Yeah, I'd be curious to go through a breakdown of all the different factions and look at this in detail in terms of the have Have nots argument. I mean, it's compelling on the surface that argument in relation to this mission Neutral is the perfect spot for me on this because I generally don't know Where I stand on it. I see decent arguments on both sides I like that it can impact list building in terms of Of Having more battle line be required although sequel But again, I haven't like looked in depth at that to see whether that is a meaningful net positive Are we actually doing anything really meaningful with that that argument with a notion? Vince is saying we're not you might be right Um, I I definitely not too keen on the notion that you can burn all of the objectives But again, have it really set down and thought about that in the context of battle line Maybe it's needed in relation to the battle line requirement as the only ones that can score Where that's actually playing a meaningful role being able to burn all at once potentially with some list To better compete on this one. Yeah, there's there's a lot going on with it. Not really sure how I feel played it at flying monkey Made a couple of mistakes and you know might have I would have had that game actually if I'd made a couple better Decisions, but yeah, I can I can definitely see some of the downsides of this mission Yeah Yeah, and then my bad list is just apex predators and tooth and nail apex predators should never be in any pack right now It rewards all the things that are already the most powerful things in the meta It's like mega's marathi and archion and go track and all this stuff that you know, you don't want like Uh, a doc a marathi and the bow snakes list featuring go track is just like dreaming of a pack that has apex predators in it Yeah, right because they just get to auto win that game. It's like I'll hold all three points I don't even care No for the folks at home too. Could we uh, since it's only the two Uh, yeah, sure. So apex predators is the one where like leaders basically are the ones that can take it, right? so and leaders and only leaders so hence your Uh, you know your monster heroes that were already quite powerful in the addition become the only potential scoring units as well Basically, right? Yeah So it's just feeling Yeah, it just it's bad. It's a bad It's a bad scenario because if you're not playing with if you don't have one of the already potent god characters The god characters just get to really bully you So it's just it's just a more or less an instant win for them unless they're facing their equal, right? It exacerbates like You know it exacerbates everything. It's already bad tooth and nail I hate it just like I've hated every previous version of this thing Because I don't like the idea of scenario is just completely invalidating allegiance abilities Tell me why you're mad like You don't want your summoned units to charge or shoot after what do you mean? Well, yeah, so this one is it's basically the old, uh, total commitment where you couldn't you know You can't you can't deploy anything in reserve So it gets rid of all that and then in addition your summoned units can't shoot Or charge in the round they show up. They all have summoning sickness Now we could talk about whether or not a rule kind of like that might be a good idea for the game overall Like there might be ways to integrate that kind of a concept Of summoning sickness into the game overall in a healthy way But just having it randomly occur in a scenario is so egregiously punishing those two rules To like half the armies there and by the way, it's not like just the powerful armies. They get punished by this Right, like again, it's just completely it's this giant Godzilla just stomping around like yeah, sure. It's punishing to I suppose Like heavy summoning armies. I guess like sure slanesh like because that's a real powerhouse right now Hey, they had two foreign ones. Hold on now. Thank you for reminding him That's two but still sure, uh, that's fine um But the you know, like but it's also hitting like particular beasts of chaos lists that want to ambush or uh What else? Um My random the fourth best city in that book living cities night. Yeah, night hot legion of night Sylvanas Sylvanas night, you know, I mean The it's just like it's just insanity to me that we still are publishing this scenario and that anybody uses it I do not understand They made it worse. They were like, oh, you didn't like the restriction that ruined allegiance abilities before I want to ruin more of them I just don't think it's up to 11 It was uh, it was a shocking choice to me. So yeah, tooth and nail is just it's That's a big it's a big thumbs down for me there boss Big agreement big agreement huge. Let's go back to apex predators. Let's try to make a case for apex predators I refuse I mean that involves all of the bad models and it's still be a problem Fix all the ones that are really egregious go trek No archaea. It's still be a problem I think one of the issues with it is that the way that it's written as I understand it I have to look at it again, but I think this is right is that Let's take archaeon archaeon can take a point Dominate it. Yeah, and then you could have a chaos lord sitting behind him who could then Stay on that point correct still control it while archaeon goes off and murder something somewhere else Whereas previously in place of arcane power his butt had to stay in the same place. Yes. So he continues sporing I think that's that's one of the fundamental issues with it right now. Yep. Sure. Sure. Absolutely There's that and then the save stacking like like when you look at the scenario itself has fundamental problems as you've described But the game itself has underlying fundamental issues. They're also making us worse Which is save stacking right monster heroes are the easiest thing to save stack in the game Yes, right And you were doing it anyway. You wanted to yeah, exactly So like you like the fact that you got to kill them to remove them Just says good luck You know here's it. Here's a simple example in that game five With that I played My opponent had Six varen guard with demon weapons. Like this is a very very scary unit. Okay. Yeah. Oh, yeah Uh, and He picked slay the warlord because he knew he could get into range. I mean they had grasping plate and those things are ridiculous So they just shoot 22 inches around the board and whatever whatever but And or or farther because he also had the cast lord to make them sometimes double pylon if he could keep it in range So then they they're going like 28 inches across the board or whatever nonsense That's you play you're talking about the six inch activation six inch activation. Yeah, then do it twice and then yeah Then they can do that cover the whole board. It's super the whole board super fun um, I had I had to I had to I had to measure 22 inch bubbles around his unit with all my army like that Yeah, did you hear did you hear that travis super fun? That's our local guy who runs that nonsense. All right Um, but at any rate like He brought his verand guard now because the nature of the base is here. You can only fight he into my into my nomad prince Which was my general. Okay. Mm-hmm. Now. This is a foot wanderer hero Fighting with like five wounds Right. Now. He had the he had his eighth of course or not his eighth of course. Sorry his um Amulet of destiny, of course. Okay. Oh good. Good. Good. Yep. And It's a five wound guy Right. Okay. Did he have an entourage with him too? Nope His his his entourage has had to have been they they were killed a little while back by the by the rampaging verand guard So he had no bodyguard unit anymore It was the only battle line unit. I completely lost but I lost one Man, that's so sad. They should like and subscribe through this video in this channel right now See here the story He picks slay the warlord Oh slaying the warlord. Okay. Okay. You set the scene beautifully. What happened? He piles into my nomad prince with four verand guard because that's the most he can get around them and maintain coherency Right. Oh, no Yeah, and I'm like, I don't think you've got the stuff to take out my nomad prince and he's like This is this is six verand guard. These are these are incredibly frightening. You know something. Okay. Let's see what happens Yeah, he did three wounds Failed to get out of here. Did you best day ever? Yeah, I had like I'd plus two to save right. That's a nomad prince and the verand guard couldn't lift me right And so like that's my point if I can get that that he was like a hundred points and he was very easy to keep alive Okay, yeah so like the The like that's my point look how far down I went All right And he's and the hero still couldn't be lifted All right, and I went way down like that is Way down there as far as power level goes. No one's like the nomad prince. There's the game breaker You know Not not one not a lariel either. They she let none of those wonders back in so yes, exactly So my point is this just that's that's why it's bad get rid of the save stacking up the points on the worst ones Fix the way the scenario works like there's so much you have to unwind Yeah Yeah, thank you brice. Yeah suns definitely do screw with apex predators as well. That's that's high on the list Yeah, I don't even want to think about that. So anyways, that's mission. All right, let's keep moving beautiful All right grand strategies and battle tactics. Well, we're not going to take as much time as we did on that one But that one was pretty busy Yeah, there's a lot of those guys there. All right So grand strategies and battle tactics what I've got down is that on grand strats Our initial take stands some of these will never be chosen. Some of these are near autocompletes You just select the one that most easily matches your army and you should in most cases get three points Uh, they they become kind of a nothing burger almost Unless you happen to be in one weird army where you just have none that you feel like you can reasonably do I don't know that there are many of armies like that out there, but it occurs now Uh, tyler, you mentioned the rotational option. So you want to talk about this because this is how your tournament this weekend went Yeah, so just an almond one of my favorite toos awesome guy I've been running in the seed role now gateway open for a number of years Jeff And played a lot of practice games with 3.0 the local community in st. Louis You know talk with us down in springfield and our journal experience had been like a lot of us that For the most part we're getting the grand strategies every single game Yeah I've had maybe I could count on one hand the number of games that I've had that were impacted by whether somebody got grand strategy or not And so he made the decision to Only allow you to play one grand strategy once across your five games So how many we how many we got like eight or nine of them? Yeah, they're a total. Yeah So pick pick five out of the eight It I told vence before the show it felt very much like mash con schemes In that you know, you get your kind of you pick your You're kind of have a thought maybe five in mind out of your eight that you could go after and then you're trying to sequencing Them well like round one. I played Stormcast and he had three, you know five six one heroes. I'm like, all right. This might be my best shot At keeling all of the heroes, which is pretty pretty tough battle tech or tough grand strat It is. Yeah. Yeah. I I loved it. I heard really good feedback Over the weekend from that approach. I mean it, you know, there's maybe a little have have knots Maybe suns might be a healthy challenge for them Having that change But generally yeah, I heard a lot of good feedback from that approach Yeah, yeah, I think the rotational option is really interesting I'd love to see some more tournaments explore that where where you have to switch grand strats every game And you can't duplicate over the course of the tournament I think that's really interesting where it could make it more of a bigger differential Um assistant ref said, I know I sound like a broken record But grand strategies add nothing to the game and actively heard it by promoting skew and tabling These are just broken. There's no reason for them to exist. Yeah I mean like right now they're just in most armies. They just end up being 15 free points You don't have to work that hard for or 15. I'm sorry three free points. Just please excuse me You don't have to work that hard for it, right? Yeah You know, like I went five out of five on my grand strat, you know, like A lot of people did I was able to deny My opponent round five's grand strat because I killed because he had the priest one and I killed all his priests I just shot him all down So like that was a chance where I actually was able to deny it by just reaching out and killing all his shrines And and stuff like that, right? um so There's I think the rotational option sounds the most interesting to me I hope somebody explores that because it does make it feel like It It would really vary things, but I think tyler if we went to the rotational option we'd probably need Maybe a different type of list like you know, I'm saying like I'm not sure it worked for every army as they currently exist I wanted to pull it up here while we're talking about it. Yeah. I mean, are you doing the sense of Yeah, I mean keep all your battle line alive kill the enemy general and yours lives kill all the enemy heroes Keep all your monsters. Keep one of your monsters alive Which is probably your general on a monster one of your wizards or one of your priests alive and then touch all the terrain, right? Yeah And Wasn't there uh, wasn't there have more units at the end of the game than your opponent? Oh, yeah, is that is that the basic or is that the uh, dominating presence? I want to say it's uh, jhb one Okay, I might have named. Yeah. No, you're you're right. Rocket. Hey I use it with my dp in and I'm like, that's what I'm here for every once in a while No, you guys can do the seven out of eight. I'll be over here like hey, I can contribute. Oh, you got it So, you know, I feel like we might need a slightly different rotation Yeah, but but I like the idea conceptually it feels like the way these should have been used Yes, right So even if this isn't the right list I think that's the right mechanic Does that make sense? I don't know man. I yeah, I would like to think we may not be too far away from a sufficiently right list Yeah, my point is I just haven't thought deeply about it and how that would yeah That's fair. That's fair and you know and for tournaments. I I like the idea You know a more robust list. I don't you know, like you say and we haven't really thought deep about this So I don't know what that would be like off the top of my head But it it would be healthy enough And then it'd be the the secondaries from the last ghb kind of where it's like, okay. Yeah score five Yeah Throughout a tournament, you know, there's extra points It gives you an opportunity to get points for denying them for your opponent to try to break up more type You know come up with more tie breakers Instead of maybe just a strength of schedule Um, like I've had games where What my last tournament before covet They had to go to like the third or fourth decimal point because of all the different tie breakers we had to go through Um, so, you know more stuff that could just straight up say hey, yeah He did this she did that That's the difference. I'm okay with it. Yeah Yep Yeah Yeah, you know, I saved hold the line and price sorcery Which one of my two easiest for rounds four and five because I thought those sure And yeah, try to try to get which again nascon scheme style You try to get your heart as severely And yeah, it was a completely different experience really really enjoyed it. Yeah makes sense I think that's great. So to those who happen to watch this take note Maybe maybe give that a shot and see how it works Uh, all right. Let's talk about battle tactics Here's my notes on battle tactics sequencing is everything Uh, understanding the nuance matters what I mean by the nuance is like objective location Uh, so like where are the objectives actually at vis-a-vis what you need to be doing? Uh monster bonuses keeping those in mind territory restrictions that kind of stuff So like objective location, I'll give you a simple example When you're doing aggressive expansion if the if the Uh, if the point is on the border of the two territories You can use aggressive expansion even if you claimed them from the top one So you can just grab those right away. You're dang, right And uh, so like that's an easy thing to miss And you don't know it and you go first and you don't do it and then your opponent does and you're like Oh, wait, I could have done what? Yep, right. Yeah And so it's like that kind of thing when I say monster bonuses I mean keep in mind all the different things that can have a monster bonus And if you have a list that can take advantage of them trying to do it because oftentimes that one extra point can really matter Oh, yeah And then territory restrictions Yeah, so this is for things like savage spearhead where you have to go wholly within your opponent's territory You know, there's a there's a lot of small deployment areas First blood very small Uh, uh, territory Um, the the ones that are 22 inch dead zones with only 11 inches of territory horizontally oftentimes that can all be Easily zoned out from dropping So it's like unless you got something that's really fast That's going to just go run over there where you're going to pick it late in the game Where you might have a couple real mobile units that got their way over there once you've sort of cleaned some of their stuff out You know, it's easy to mess it up not be able to move wholly into their territory, right? You can't have a you can't have a dude tell it out You got to be wholly within and that's that's a smallish amount of space so Just like I think that battle tactics Uh are the one area that I know I want to work a lot more on Yeah personally Because I know I didn't get the sequencing right in all my games like I'm sure of it. Yeah Yeah, it's just it's such an it's such an area That you can mess up Right Um, yeah, the um Gumber says always remember that monsters takeover doesn't get the monster bonus I've had several opponents think it could take to get the extra point. It's absolutely correct It does not because they just be and and and I get it. I had somebody actually do that to me During the tournament and I was like I had to look and I went I was like, okay And I went and read it I had to go look and I was like because I had my cheat sheet with me like always I have my cheat sheet has the all the battle tactics completely printed out directly from the book and I said That's not you don't get the bonus for that, but I know why they thought that they weren't trying to cheat They were scanning the list for looking and looking for the monster word in bold Of course because that's generally where you know, you get the bonus and that one has the monster word in bold But that's because that's what you need to do it Yes, right. Right. Yep. Yep. Yeah, those little things like that those little nuances Right. It was interesting again because I didn't play with any monsters Okay, I had no monsters to my list. I did have casters. I never turned anyone into a monster never felt the Yeah, like it would have never been beneficial to do so Yeah, yeah, it's great in theory But I just I just worry, you know that If I don't get the turn and then my dude's still a monster all of a sudden I'm giving up monster points and then that right that I went for that little extra bit and I got too greedy Yeah, it's funny too because I had games Again, just I keep referencing it because it's started top of mind. I had no monsters in round five. My opponent had no monsters Right. So suddenly neither of us could do bring it down and neither of us could do monsters take over Yep, right that list starts shrinking. You're like, man, I gotta find a way to kill the warlord Right. Yeah, exactly. How are we killing a catacross? So it was like, uh You know, it was it's I will say It didn't bother me at all not to have any monsters not even not once did it ever matter or be an issue right like Didn't I didn't so I think a lot of people say oh, you have to have monsters or you can't play You got to pay to play sort of with monsters. I definitely don't think that's the case My experience this weekend in all my practice with this list a list a big list where I had zero monsters whatsoever It never felt like it hurt me and I knew I'd never had extra victory points on the line that I was handing to them Yep. Yeah, right. Do you think Vince that was skewed Meaningfully by the fact that you have a pretty strong power projection, you know range damage list 100 more a more pure melee Yeah, 100% 100% like that that was that that that helps to counter that right like that my army was was all power projection High mobility high power projection, right? Like I could just apply pressure wherever I wanted in any turn So like certainly that helps me keep the pace You know, I don't know. I'm not sure if I would feel the same if I was playing like all-foot corn or something You know non-archeon all-foot corn. I don't know You know, that's not a list I play so I can't I can't speak to it But I'll say it's never hurt me to not have mine Like in all the practice games and all the games in the tournament. It never hurt me not having monsters not once nice So rocko any thoughts on battle tactics, you know, obviously Maybe your experience in terms of you know denying of course, it's going to be huge Like that's the same. I think an area that I'm going to try to get that right as well But yeah, no, it's it's definitely it's a game of denying. It's knowing like if I'm bringing just one monster I'm doing that one where I'm just contesting with my monster. I'm just trying to because once You start running out of easy to score Yeah, uh Battle tactics, you know like vince said if the other person and you you both didn't bring monsters Two of them are off the table immediately and then I'm like, all right, I'm just I'm just scrambling like How do I late game kill their general? How do I set up an easy kill on a battle line unit that I call my shot and have to do this with Yeah, and with with save stacking You know, we already had the anecdote here of the freaking nomad prince taking on uh four out of the six varen guard and and living It just the most amazing moment of you know, you play that in your head. It's just he stands alone I can check the lake I have to say that because of the rerolling ones group So he just stands alone, right? And you just you have this awesome image of this narrative of the duel going at them against six of archiod's chosen and in in in practice You know, he how do you? How do you do that then when you don't have the monsters and you have to start planning these ways? And like, okay, cool. He's got to go for the warlord now. I'm just gonna best day ever Yeah, exactly like pay attention to the sequencing like for example I never call my heroic action until they call theirs Because right like they finish all their start of turn stuff and then I do all my start of turn stuff Which means I'm gonna let them pick their battle tactic and the second they pick slay the warlord And pick there whatever their heroic action is. I'm like great best day ever on my general like let's Like your general should not be in best day ever until they pick slay the warlord Right. No, like it's it's just that kind of little sequencing stuff That can make it which is legal and fine too. It's not even me. It's just yeah, you wait It's actually the correct way to play but a lot of times we get loosey-goosey And you'd be like, oh, just like, okay started turn. I'll just heal my hero. Okay, go Cool or whatever. I'll roll for the clan point, you know, yeah, sure Yeah, I found slay the warlord and bring it down on a similar principle the most challenging just to yeah They're just gonna find us to our You know, and then if you don't get roar, they're gonna all out defense or you don't have the option to roar They're gonna all out defense yada yada yada or they're in yeah, so yeah, it's it's it's quite challenging. Yeah Uh That is unless they have a non hero monster in which case then bring it down So they becomes a whole different ball game Hello cow the caribatives. How are you doing friend? I'll tell a very quick but funny story from About battle. This is about battle tactics for my game four against the maws of jorke. Okay, so It was the we were playing Uh first blood that was round four. So we're very very far apart and I give He's he has the priority. He gives me the first turn So we were both the same number drops and he won the he won the roll off. Sure So there's like Many many inches between us because maws of jorke with the he had the little boss bonus They're rolling like they're really they're 3d6 plus 3 movement plus a re-roll, right? So those little squiggies can really get out there and I'm you know, I'm I'm not gonna walk into mangler squigs because he had two loon bosses on mangler One of which was his general who had the five of board save. Okay. Yes And so I moved To take my two points one being well outside of his range to cover me even on his best day ever, right? Like I was I've stayed 33 inches away to hold the one point in the bottom left I moved a single gyrocopter to hold the bottom the top right at like a max distance knowing you could get to me But I don't care. It's one gyrocopter. Yeah, and then I moved the steam tank up and turn and turned it sideways in between Terrain so it blocked everything up and I knew he could fly over the top of me But at the distance I set it at he would have had to have like literally the greatest role in history Because I kind of set it right there to where there was no way he was going to be able to charge over the top of the base Sure And I just prepped to go into best day ever went right like he'll be ready to absorb all the impact And I know the steam tank commander can take it because he's Hard the only thing that brought that dude down was go track Because yeah, that kills everything. Anyway, yes, so he moves up stuff happens blah blah blah whatever doesn't matter Goes back to my turn So I so a priority order maintains into turn two. So I have the top two I say, okay Slay the warlord now. This is a worst. This is a bad choice theoretically But his his loon boss on mangler is like he jumped up to he was he was hoping to get the double He didn't get the double. So he's kind of in range of all of my guns Sure Okay, I had killed his other loon boss on mangler the one that wasn't the general in round one Yeah, just by putting all the 30 inch range shots I had into it Are the uh four up base save or five A four up base save 12 wounds. So he was four up five up, right and a five up ward, right? Well, yeah, he had the ambiot of destiny. So yeah, okay Okay, good So I'm like slay the warlord because I knew I needed to kill that guy anyways, right? Like he was my he was he was the number one thing I wanted to kill that round So I was like, I'm gonna put all my guns into him anyways. So I might as well just kill him Okay So I I'm like, all right. I'm gonna start with mortal wounds because he's only got a five up against that So I I've got a couple damaging spells roll the first damaging spell Miscast to do three wounds to myself Okay Roll the second spell roll a three fail the spell. I'm like, okay. So neither damaging spell works I'm like no problem. Do on my movement. I'm like, let's go into shooting I'm going to start with a storm of shemtech another great chance of mortal wounds, right? Three rolls on a two up. Yeah, I love the mortal wounds each I roll three ones Okay Doing well Yeah, I'm like, okay. All right. So no mortal wounds. So I shoot the the steam tank commander's like right there next to him I had so like I wasn't in combat, but I was close enough I was like, I'm I'm gonna shoot this team commander into the sky The machine gun's gonna go into the the little unit of squig harpers next to him And so the battle cannon roll a one sniper rifle on top roll a one at that point. So this is like out of Nine dice I've rolled against guy this guy or 11 dice 10 of them have been ones Okay, and so I said, all right. I literally said this out loud. I was like, all right, that's it. I give up I don't get my battle tactic this round. I give up Right the universe does not want me to kill this guy No, I hear you universe Like I'm not going to throw any more good money after bad You get to keep him this round. Congratulations. I'm not shooting at him anymore So I turned all the rest of the guns into his units and blew away all his units And uh and and like then that but that dude was still alive, but I was like, that's fine. That's just what this is He gets to live for now And that dude didn't he was like one of the last units to die the universe did not want me to kill that loon boss on mangler Nice, nice, but anyways, I thought that was very funny So like my point is it's important to get your battle tactics and to think about it But also don't let them disrupt your whole battle strategy. That's why I told that story, right? What I could have done was just like kept pouring shots into him Oh, yeah When clearly I had already wasted so much firepower and I was like I gotta stop I'm gonna lose the game because if I don't bring this guy down then I've literally accomplished nothing Whereas if I just go into the basic units I'll just start picking things up Right So I just turned and killed the other hero in like 25 squigs Yeah, right. Yeah, and then that still wins you the game later down the road. Yep So anyways, uh like go for your tactics, but no when to hold them and no when to fold them You know what I mean? Like sure. Yes That's that's the answer So anyways, yeah There you go All right, yeah Next thing Mm-hmm next thing. All right. That was a fun story. I hope everybody enjoyed that that little squig I think I think my favorite part was when you said you rolled nine dice and you got 10 ones I'm not sure the math. I rolled like 11 dice because it was two spell casts. Yeah Two spell casts. That's four three Seven no, it was nine. So it was eight out of nine ones. There you go. That's okay. Okay And one of those was a two because you said it was a three That you rolled one was a two. Yes out of the eight ones and one two. There you go. You hate this Yeah All right, let's talk about meta health versus problem units Okay so We're seeing a wide swath of armies being competitive and landing in the top 10, right? Phenetium even one of the bad phenetium Gets went four in one. Okay. You've got fec up there in a couple different times Obviously, you've got things like giants zinch doc all the usual suspects. We would we would expect to see slanesh We've seen two slanesh four and ones. Yes. That may be three now, right? Might be three actually. Yeah, I think it might be three actually crazy like the uh The point is that we're seeing actually a pretty wide swath of stuff showing up up top Definitely more armies than we're happening in 2.0. Right. Oh, yeah All day Yep, uh, and even things we saw as previously poor performers Have been showing up in the top 10 Or the 5.0 bracket for one bracket again. However, you kind of want to construe it, right? Hey, if I don't see 120 skinks on a list again My god, there was a tournament in 2.0 where I played pre-nerf petrofex elite and then double things a so-tech And it was the hardest 3.0 ever got I got third place of adamum through grand the tournament was actually a tts tournament But my god and then I saw that in real life too and I'm like, okay. Yeah, we're just doing this now. So I'm When they were like, yeah reinforced units are like, okay. Yep. I'm on board. I'm on board So My point is is that at this like we're seeing this big swath of stuff Yes, now at the same time, we also all know that there are problem units out there I gave a simple list here archion go track and marathi. They're the big three that we always mentioned But you could pick other things you could pick your nine storm friends Right, you you could pick like like there are other units we could point to and say are problematic, right? Yes. Okay So my question is How are both of these things true at the same time? Is it a factor of new addition new rules lots of people starting from zero and so kind of the wild west and anything can happen Or is it just actually the way the game plays now? is Allows for a broader set of victory conditions by armies And those kinds of problem units can't win games on their own as easily What's the answer? Right. What do you think rocker? so when it comes to the The problem units and just everybody seemingly gets a shot at the champ here Um, I think as we lean more into endless spells the the go tracks and the marathis and the archions who all of a sudden Can't charge because of a shackles And it stays up. Sure. They get an extra Ways there seems to be other ways to unbind. There's different ways that endless spells work to like double heal things. There's There's so much. There's so much to work through with all this But I think When it comes down to it, there's just so much randomness in the meta and so many things are good That uh, you're gonna run into list. You'll never never you wouldn't plan for a sylvaneth army You know like like with my deepkin. I'm like, yeah, I've got three sharks in the turtle They're all gonna be running harpoon so I can try to chip three wounds off of a marathi And you know get a go track. I'm not game planning for sylvaneth I'm not game planning for uh The the revenant with the the eggs and the bugs coming out with the hedge. I'm not thinking about them I'm worried about Illuminath and how am I going to deal with uh 50 sentinels and again It shoot them from distance and have enough plus ones to hit to counteract the minus one But then while I'm looking at that What would be like the top of the meta and then all of a sudden Here's this thing coming at me and trucking me and dropping me to a lower table And it's also taking out some of these dock players. They're you know, they're cannibalizing each other You know, uh, you know the archaeon they get to fight when it dies all of a sudden two of them are in each other's swords And you're just like, huh What do we do here because if everybody's bringing You know these kinds of big meta units and they're cannibalizing each other then this other person comes out of left field One of the 10 lists that's unique and no one thought about it You know, you're getting a great shot and that's that's where I think this health is coming from as well And also there seems to be Like I know we're all talking about shooting meta shooting meta shooting metas, but I think there's enough tools now We're starting to slowly see is people have been expanding their armies and getting some of these newer rules Like sylvaneth with the trees going everywhere with nor ignoring liner site more ways to teleport more ways to buff A derp through so he's not a derp through to get two extra attacks on his sword and to play this movement game Save stacking Behind terrain roll where you might get a plus one save and if you're not wholly within cover But yeah, that's rain. Yeah, there's there's a lot more ways to mitigate Unless and well, yep, and then it's just like, oh, what do I do about? The spells that are like making sentinels to be a mortal ones on a five up Oh, maybe that's what you burn your once per game model. I'm buying a lot of armies seem to have these days Whether it's storm cast if it stays pending new book Uh ko with a navigator can get it I'm just gonna probably keep saying order stuff. But uh, it's like technus has it now You get so many pluses to unbind from like a negash Or an arc on that seem to be again viable Even in obr, you know, they found a new home. They're not soul like grave lords, but you know what soul blight With how their army works for bringing back units, you know, you almost don't even care that they killed your unit of 40 zombies If you're brenden the lord of death because you bring because you already killed three of their other units You get in plus three on a five up roll to bring stuff back You pop out of a grave site because armies are running solo lead if they're running these better shooting units and a marathi and a go check You have port control Then it's zombies that are bringing models back to their unit on a two up You don't care. You're already back to 40 dudes when you killed all the bow snakes Yeah Yeah, it's interesting. Um Because I I I think I agree with a lot of what you just said there rocko like To be fair I said a lot you did The the reality is I think maybe the fundamental nature of some of these scenarios like we talked about Contributes to this because they do tend to prevent runaway scores Yes, right And so because of the nature of the current scoring, it's actually allowing a lot more people to compete in different ways Hmm Because you tend to score like let's just call it the average is five in the good scenarios Yeah, right And score two score more battle tactic and you don't even have to be on half the board usually to do it Right So you like you still need to engage if you want to if you want to push to the wind You can't just sit there and do nothing and play with yourself But you do have more ability to still be scoring while controlling less the board or killing less of your opponent's stuff Right. Yeah, eventually it's going to come to that, but you don't need to alpha strike them down In fact, often that's a pretty terrible idea. I think Yeah, right Um, it depends. There's there's certain things work and certainly work in your favor um So yeah, I mean to me that's I think that's probably the fundamental answer, right That plus there is more balance because of the defense against stuff like shooting That is a bright side of the of the save nature, right? It's harder to necessarily push through stuff like that Yeah Yeah, maybe maybe a quick leave in so I wanted to ask you what what was your Like updated current impressions on range damage. Let's say broadly defined A shooting in magic after your experience at mash con, you know, I mean, I ran an unusual army, right? Sure Because like I don't know that I saw any like a ko list is jealous of my shooting That's true. Okay. Like I brought the Battlestar Galactica to that fight, you know, like really dead Once when all my guns like everything in the army shot basically right Yeah, so every unit could put shots in the air and and oftentimes on egregious bonuses All right, like in my in the good games where I was able to sort of control and have the board control I wanted a lot of my army was on Tuesday rolling ones twos Yeah, that's a lot of shots to put in the air and So like it's still powerful Like surprise surprise shooting still good Yeah, you know what I mean And I I built the list this insane list to really exploit that stuff right and to be able to choose units in order and Remove problems and it's it was it's all this big Johnny conundrum Like I was sort of out of my wheelhouse But it was it was interesting to be able to play it through between the mobility and then pushing power where I wanted it Right. I'll pick a little off this guy. I'll try to I'll shoot this hero. I'll weaken this unit I'll kill this unit right and just sort of like spice that around was usually how I ended up using it But it's still like having that very mobile very diffused power base where I could either like group up and just Unleash You know like broadside somebody or just go And spread the whole army out all over the board and just start like shooting everywhere and everything Proved to be you know valuable to have that. I don't think there's many armies that can do that kind of thing Yeah, right So, but yeah, I mean it's still powerful, but you know at the same time You know fighting the Marathi go track list It was a tough fight all the way through and by the way, they had like 15 bow snakes, too There's not like they were without shooting for goodness sake right in double tapping bow snakes that do more to wounds Right. I mean, they're you know Marathi is up in my guts round one. Like let's not kid ourselves here, right? No, not at all um I mean, I knew she was going to be I had properly You know I had properly chaffed to to make sure that that was going to To not be a problem, but like I had to pick what was going to die to Marathi, you know Yep. Yeah. Oh By the by the way, Benz, uh, Rocco. So I my list had a little Combo, I mean, it's not nothing that inventive, but it happened game one and I was so excited to get storm cast. So Speeding up time Mirror dance spell Buff up Marathi catechism mind razor witch Mystic shield Mirror down up a little in my mouth. Hold on throw a little Marathi up the board getting cogs further up the board good Tag more people need to put little Marathi in danger that together they can only take three wounds throw her up there Fight dang it. But yeah, go on puritan piled around got into some tinny vacators So I got six or seven. Oh, it's beautiful the calm glow that I wanted all weekend right there Collis and doc folks and mirror dance. It's a beautiful thing. Sure. All right, brandt ever. No, that's fine So yeah, I mean quick question. It's a quick question Did you kelp my for retreat and charge from big Marathi too or I was I was boring. I know just smooth that brain out, baby. Just smooth it out. Yeah It's okay. Fine. Fine. Oh that Marathi dockless. I played by the way was calipron too. So they were all it was Because the anti shooting list he had brought an anti shooting list. Uh, so at any rate, um The uh You know the the nature of this I think this is exactly correct and here's what really excites me about this If these problem units which we could probably identify pretty easily Yeah Like we could go through the game and pick out sort of the the proudest nails pink horrors Sure, that would be how do they actually work? Yeah, that would be one Um I think that If those get adjusted we by the way, we don't have to like crush them. I don't want to see them unplayable I want to be a hundred percent clear on this right like archion should be a thousand points I'm just going to set that that that down I'm going to plant that flag a thousand that is a thousand points Right. Yeah. Yeah You know go trek should go up some Marathi should go up some But like if we fix these units uh I think the meta becomes a real wide open place Right and cruel boy is saying you can't shoot me outside of 12 inches. Okay bringing in the night fighting rules You know like I really do think at that point the the meta becomes super wide open Because you can't fix one of these things right now. They're kind of holding each other in check Like go track kind of holds archion in check. You know what I mean? Yes. Yeah Um, but like if those if they both get waxed together Um, I just think this meta opens up even wider and we get really literally the best meta we've ever had Yeah, I just want to take a note to thank everybody this weekend who said our Marathi is fine and that Vincent Venturelli Needs to settle down. I had three different people this weekend made made a comment on that Thanks. Thanks everybody Making the great point that you know, you can just kind of chip damage her down Get off the board and by round two seems I don't know if she seems pretty fair to me But what do I know from Marathi? Yeah, because it that's the thing when you're playing the god monster Obviously, you just can't roll the aftersave. You can't roll like if I played go track the first My first eight damage I'd roll three ones Even heck with vince's nine ones. He rolled it's possible that that sequence of events can happen Like there was a guy with a new croak I think he took like two or three wounds and then rolled like the 18 on the three dice and croak was dead from Oh, yeah, I think one of jack's one of jack's games. Yeah Yeah, you know it happens It really does. I appreciate all of you people saying she's fine at 660. You're wrong. That's great Um, it's cute when it's the other person's marathi. That's when it's crazy It's a super cute defense from all of you stands who play doc Okay She's not That being said, she is the least of the three the three problems here Yeah, okay. Yeah I don't maybe if marathi could take four wounds instead of three to turn. I don't know She just needs to go up a little bit of points. She should be at least 700. It's pretty easy Didn't go track code down points too. He went down almost 100, right? 100, right? Yeah, that's that's the bigger problem here for me of just what Is what they thought everybody was going to bring shackles and make them that charge Sure, like I I understand you marathi stands out there. I get it Look at all the support that I've got in this chat. I'm sure It's it's wonderful. Like I have them in order of problem on the screen, right? This is Tyler's show now But she's still in there. She's still in there Okay, so guys Are there other units? I saw you mentioned the the pinks Take your pick, you know 10 20 Are there other units slash hero units monsters, whatever that Would fit within one of these tiers. Let's say let's say arcana should be fixed in some way Yeah, that like a really problematic enough for talking out like us to talk about them Or you know, yeah to get to get hit a little bit in the should be fixed here. How about that? Okay, okay Yeah, sure Probably nine storm friends because it's a crap experience. I don't think they're I don't think they're a 5o army But it's a crap experience. It's just a unit. What are we saying is the nine storm of the storm fiends? Yeah, yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it's not a turning winning list. It's just a bad. I think it's actually a bad choice Yeah, but I still think it's like just something that shouldn't be done like that's that's it That's what it comes down to like it just shouldn't exist as an opportunity right um The so that would be one. Um pinks probably need like Yeah, like I said before it's just it In some degree like they certainly need FAQ. So we actually understand how they work. That'd be a good start Yes, right. Yes, and I'll also put out there Um, not that they're a problem, but the overwatch I'm gonna keep saying overwatch because we've mentioned 4dk with the unleash hell on the sisters of the watch and the handgunners because When I see that I see that as like a three-part thing But I'm also the city's player. So I'm gonna I'm gonna wish and pray That it's you know, you don't spend the command point. It doesn't count as being issued But they shot so it's not like they could shoot again. It's how I interpret it. Yeah, it's it's it comes down to how we Interpreting used Yes, because yeah, technically they have used it therefore There's an argument that they can't yeah Yeah, so I wouldn't want to shoot the same unit twice in overwatch, but I would still like to have my ability where I can have all my handgunners and my sisters of the watch Just just a wall of lead in magical arrows All right In the tournament that I played them at Not only did I get the good the good rules on the the two objectives in the middle on that one thing Each counting is two It was viewed it was viewed in my favor for that So what would happen is I'd pop stuff out of reserve with all my bonuses And because of the smaller table sizes in the range of where I was able to set up coming from the table edges It was actually against bigger gargots. I focused fired one make a gargot down and then I got the next turn and then shot another one dead Um, and I had a great time, but I can also see why that is is a bullpoo Yeah, I mean beyond that we'd get into arguments, right? Like it it's like what's the exact thing down from there There's probably a couple of those that are maybe low hanging fruit But but my point is you're going to get into like not as clear cut territory Like you bring in the stuff like sentinels Which is already happening right now several zombies Yeah, someone said salamanders. Uh, they're they're Salamanders already now capped two. It's like it's not as it's not as egregious. They're still very scary I think salamanders are actually the the sort of one of the lesser scary things in in serif on now I mean we'll talk about them on the next slide in in certain ways Um, yeah, they're like their stuff their stuff, you know And sorry rocko. I would probably put the turtle in there right now, man Listen, all right. So now shelly baby girl here. She's gonna have to have a talk with your marathi What 380? What do you want? What cheap ridiculous price are you paying? She is gorgeous. Oh, hey, I played this turtle before it got the marathi rules I brand the battalion the achillian corps that everyone hated just for the funner. That was the tournament I three out Um And she's been in my list ever since and now she's got good rules. She's got impact She's got good impact hits into a little one wound infantry I give her the bigger aura too so that uh, that's actually probably a thing too with that because That was never really uh expanded on because her rules say that it's a 12 inch or an above the marathi Right if something's hold within and the mantra. So yeah add three inches to that And you know, you would think okay three plus 12 is 15 and then you got a rules lawyer going well Actually, it doesn't say it adds to it. It's just making the the save aura bigger Oh, we lost tyler. Oh I defended my turtle. I defended He couldn't take this turtle defense. He was like Well, it's a two plus save. So obviously he wasn't killing me back with marathi with neg one rend sure Yeah, so my answer is, you know, there's there's probably more stuff that that I wonder if I add him back in He can join back in there we go. I wasn't sure Welcome back tyler So everyone's saying that your marathi just couldn't kill my turtle and obviously shelly's the the better girl. It's okay She's the better waifu. I guess sure. I don't know All right, they could argue about about which units need to be fixed all day. And so yeah too deep into that Like it it just it becomes the things people hate. I do agree with one point that was made in the chat that like, uh That like a lot of the problems that come come out of safe stacking Right. I guess that's that's what it comes down to. Yeah a lot of that is sort of the underlying rotten root At the core of this, right? Okay List building All right Uh, right how the back of my turtle. Let's talk list building. Here are some of my things Key strats you got to be able to deal with the gods So that means you got to have either a game plan for them or a way to take them out or a way to ignore them Or get away from them or whatever And by that I mean archae on marathi go track. I know he's not a god shut up. I don't care Oh, he's totally a god. He's the avatar Yeah You know, whatever tech list whatever pick your pick your gods, right? Um The power of three plus save on monster heroes like if you can get a three plus save Hero monster hero high wound hero Like you should you just should They're so I just say they're so good right now. Yes. Do you remember when everyone was complaining about ethereal amulet? Oh, sure. It's so much worse now. Yes. This is so much worse Yeah, 100 because like at least with at least with ethereal amulet every two and one they rolled actually did wounds Yep. Yep, right. That was the nature of the thing No Now it's like we are it's so easy to just make it only ones and there's still plenty of reroll ones I mean that that uh Empty thrown baron guard unit was a zinch mark. So they rerolled ones to save naturally Oh, nice. All right, and there's so much tech in that Yeah, like that's all the time. This is what they work Uh monsters that shoot So, uh, this is a I think underrated current category. This is a small list But this is what's powering the thunder lizard Uh, in fact, yes, indeed the turtle swinging by there But like I think a lot of the thunder wizard power thunder wizard First of all, I don't know what a thunder wizard is, but that's not what we need. What in a way? That would be stupid casting this. Yeah That's All right, I'll give it to you. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Uh monsters that shoot Okay, so the regular stegodons As well as the stegodon will chief on them have a bow that's on like threes threes neg one three damage that makes three shots Yes, okay Three damage Skystreak bow, baby. Okay The bestilladons are monsters that shoot just you know, potentially twice around Doing a whole just hordes of damage much more to even chaos Right. Yes. Oh, yeah. Okay. Love it. Love it. What is it double damage or these? This is like plus one. I think it goes from two to three But still I believe it's nine shots at full health. Yes. It's nine shots at three damage each, right? Like They're very points efficient too. You they lost the the weird like rules saying that they're they're an unrendable one up whatever save but They're still so tough. Yeah star still starts at a two up. It's it they're they're still basically unrendable. Um So monsters that shoot are really really interesting Because think of how many battle tactics You get bonuses for when you do with monsters Okay, and if you can complete those at range Like kill a battle line unit. You get a bonus if it's a monster. Cool. I have five shooting monsters Right, I'm gonna start rolling. Right. Yeah, exactly. There you go. Eat my own words here. That's what I get There you go Yeah, like just I'm gonna start shooting at the broken ranks that unit I'm gonna start shooting by the time I'm done one of these five monsters will have killed it And I'll get a bonus point Yep And so like monsters that have real ranged attacks not just like a single Breath that's does maybe you know hits on twos wounds on threes neg one run d6 damage It's like that kind of crap can get out of here. Come on storm cast dragons being good Yeah, exactly give it give us a real breath weapon, you know, so i'm very interested in monsters that have ranged potential Yeah, I think thunder lizards have it. I think there's a little bit in idk I think there's a few armies that have this and it's really fascinating um boy oh boy if that october book ends up being like a Abyss of chaos book as I as we all hope it will be Oh, man, and they completely remade the cygor scroll so it wasn't total garbage Oh, then could suddenly be a real power piece in that army Yes, right. Oh man that the the 14 cockatrice list can Go and stop with the four cygor list coming up out of nowhere killing these monsters that are being ridden by wizards Going everywhere. Oh the potential sure and You know for gom says uh shooting monsters get almost nothing from monsters actions monsters that only shoot and don't melee one who cares Is my answer not i'm not trying to be rude to you for gom. I'm just saying like one who cares those are those are bonus things I don't care Like we don't need to go I don't need those two things like stegodons. I can still charge happily into units Right and and get those things going. I can still just be running around destroying faction terrain Like I can do it when I need to do it Yes, right So like I'm not Do you know how many like in all five tournament games? I had two monster actions used against me the whole tournament Not to mention that everybody loves hunters of the heartlands nonsense All right, so it's like you have to get to do your monster actions like so many lists I was up against head And I was like enjoy that Like I got zero of those and I don't care Yep, right So, uh, like I just don't see it as a thing. It does not matter like they're they're interesting bonuses once in a while Like there you go Uh units that can answer battle tactics be thinking about what of your units are going to be really good at excelling at battle tactics Right who can move who can get into who's going to complete your Your savage spearhead who's going to be really good at pushing and finding the battle line unit and and yoan and so on and so forth, right? Uh, and that leads to my next point mobility matters like mobility matters so much in this new Even on the smaller board it sounds like it shouldn't but I think it matters even more Because you tend to be more mixed up with people So the I don't know why to teleport to be around where you want to be Is such a huge deal when the board has a lot more like high flying movement to me is the most powerful thing in the game right now Like if you can get a super high flying movement Because the board's often real gummed up and it's often hard to just pick up and teleport and drop back down at nine You don't always get to be where you want But if you can just shoot over at the top of people and move 16 19 20 inches, whatever nonsense, you know Yeah, yeah, uh, suddenly you can be everywhere you want to be Yep, right I've had I've had games. Sorry. I just want to say this real quick where the the humble felbat or the aether wing Uh has been able to even just fly over people Prosecutors if they keep their 3d6 charge, I have to say it like that because we don't know a book yet yeah, uh to just charge over screens and Just assassinate a hero or just again just tag a little bit just to steal an objective. Yeah So definitely shell of course. Yeah. Yeah. I like I like the prosecutor shut out with a 3d6. That's a good one Yeah, yeah DPS checks. You got to keep DPS checks in mind. They're a list. They're going to DPS check you Second place at Nash con was a 235 wound savage oracle list. It was brutal. It was just bodies just Swarming the board Insane DPS check, right? Um, like that makes mega gargants look like a walk in the park, right? Just the sheer number of wounds And and the board presence that they have like they were just everywhere. They were everywhere I would walk by his games and he would just be like every time he would dominate 75 of the board Yeah, right and it's funny because like everyone said going into third. Oh hordes are dead So no one's bringing horde breakers Because they're not planning for that They're planning for the marathies and the go-tracks of the world and then there's this this person 245 however many wounds. It's just a green tide Yep. Yep. You didn't see that coming Uh, and then finally power projection like what in your army can actually project power? And that doesn't necessarily mean ranged attacks that could be could be spells could be ranged attacks Could be high movement, right? You got to have something in there that projects power in a real way Yeah, that's that that to me seems to be the key stuff that you want to think about when you're when you're list building What do you gentlemen think anything I missed in your list building thoughts in 3.0 value? I mean, I concur with everything you're saying that you hit every major thing I'd ever want in a list by different considerations um, I mean it's Yeah, it it's if it and one thing to remember is Local metas are your more important thing you see like we'll talk about all these tournament stuff, but they're going to be Times where your meta is just for dudes that hang out in your basement Playing random stuff and you'll never see a marathi or a go track. So you got a plan for whatever they're bringing You know and you're laughing like yeah, I kill savage orcs all week in my thing And then you get to some of these bigger tournaments and then this is where this stuff will come in Where like I I know for my local meta there are three to four different gargant players That could bring that And on my article I need to kill a mega gargant turn or a unit of three minis I know they they bring a list with four megas. What is my dps check for that? How can I swarm and kill and move on to the next one? What what am I setting up for battle tactics because I I know There's a few deepkin players and you know, they're they're Going double turtle And how do I try to crack through that when I need mortal wounds? How do I deal with people that you know have spell portals with the tech list that can just throw it out And then get rid of it at the end of their turn What do I do for a bridge from tempest thigh or someone who's KO'd flying high around their ships? Yep One thing I want to say that david had a few fun awards at nashkon So he had an award for killing the most monsters and an award for killing the most generals Okay, since there's no bonus. This is the orc player. No, no, no, these are just two separate awards Okay, we're there. Okay the person who won the monster killer award. It could be slayer or whatever it was called. Okay Mm-hmm killed 20 monsters 20 Over the course of five games. He averaged four monsters a game He thought he was he was a city's a sigmar temp also a tempestive player. Okay. Yeah Yeah, he had the the he had the standard 420 blaze it build Sure, sure And he fought two suns players It's just smoked them Oh So dream run man. There you go. Yeah 20 monsters his nearest competitor had 12 That's one of the more incredible things I've heard in a while with a west 20 over five games. That's that's amazing Oh, this game is nutty Yeah, I find uh, let's building again, it's total potential recency bias, but uh, the the mix I find it the most intriguing that I can maybe ever remember in the game Sure As you said Rocco, you know, a lot of us thought msu was going to dominate hordes are still very prevalent There's a lot of value in running them and having the dps check They're good. They can be helpful with battle tactics. They can help all the number of fronts but non Hero monsters have a greater role hero monsters and certain heroes have a greater role A more meaningful role than ever, especially hero monsters, obviously So I I think the mix might be the best that it's ever been just in terms of You know the viable variety of just about anything under the sun and and again, we're seeing that in About anything apparently can go You know, certainly three two if not four one Right. Yeah, right and you're earning these three twos now for sure because everyone just seems to be going for the these In these tournaments these harder lists because you know, you can Go and just pick up a go track to throw into your order list and all of a sudden it gets that much scarier Your dock players are loving the marathies with the bow snakes You know At people had that guy in in a box for so long on their shelf like, oh, you know, he's okay Ended to we start sneaking out a bit more. You see some of this Uh, the zinch build start get You know picking up some steam And and now here he is the board got smaller so you can power project farther is a single model worth all those points Just murdering things left right in center Yeah You know because before it was either you tried to kill him or you avoided him Now the board's smaller and he flies and has all this movement and is the hero monster that can do all this extra stuff Right, and you're like, huh Can't avoid that. Right. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah All right, cool. Let's keep moving Drops and deployment Okay Uh Yeah, okay or dnd Yeah, uh Drops how much does being a low drop matter? That's the question I want to discuss shooting ambushing alpha early claims all this kind of stuff Right, that's that's what you're that's what you're negotiating over when you're negotiating your drops And then deployment my argument is it matters more than ever especially based on your drops It's almost has to be derivative of your drops, right? Yes There's a much shorter space between armies on average And also and this is something that we talk about that a lot, but they're what this Uh Joe fever asked what what does 420 blaze refer to an aos 30 iron drakes often with a bridge Uh, who get teleported forward set up and have the rune lord buff on them So uh, usually with hawk-eyed So they're making like Two attacks each so it's 60 attacks coming out of the unit on like some probability of probably twos and Uh twos because they'll if there are generals near them with hawk-eyed Then there there are twos and twos neg two rend One damage each so they're just they just shred anything they touch because it's like it's It's insanity And that unit's actually fairly tough to pick up especially with enemy shooting Okay, and it's obviously a porcupine if you charge it you just die unless you charge it with a chaff universe and then double charge it so Okay At any rate So Drops and deployment gentlemen Tyler start us off. How much is being low drop actually matter? That is a lot. I think it's still highly relevant. It's a 3.0. Yeah, it is somewhat less dependent I think certain lists are gonna Want to be more low drop than others? So I don't play lumenet. I haven't played lumenet in a while. I played in the 2.0 I would tend to think that all those sequel you want to be a low drop lumenet list. Yes for various reasons. Yeah That's playing Playing daughters of kane. It's another glass cannon army apart from rafi Everything generally dies in that army to about anything in the game So I don't want to be doubled at any time Ideally and again, sometimes I run into some problems because I'm still in automatic mode of I'm just going to give my opponent first turn And call it a day Which has bit me in the butt a couple of games when I shouldn't have done that But yeah, because I don't want to be doubled because then they get into the cauldron or the kina rye or the snake bows and they get wiped out Yep So Yeah, a short answer. I think it's just as if maybe even more relevant than it's ever been and there's a lot of nuances and details to that Yep And there are some armies and builds where you're like, all right Deployment is so important. I want to go high drop so I can counter deploy And that'll come into play and you're like, I don't care if I go second because I've I've brought Extra cheap units of disposable bodies with maybe pregame moves To try to psych out my opponent Where I can move up and cover space to stop them from teleporting in I can pull them back to actually have a farther distance between us I've seen where they're putting their wizards that are going to be casting buff spells So I can now put my auto on binds near there If they're going first to try to pick up this alpha strike on me I can game plan this and list building if again, this is prevalent by you and Some armies again do have the tools for this the city's the current storm cast again even um Like anything that could ally in those and I'll order a lot of Grots because they have the bodies for it chaos with the the warband That uh does the the one with the the the rock prowler the untamed beasts. There we go. They've got a pregame move Yep There there are ways to get around that if you you're like I I can't afford The uh just to go like a battle regiment or even two battle regiments and I'm like, all right So if I'm not playing in that space, how do I take in this new space? How do I? Go about this and it again It's building these extra cheap units to be chaff and screens and we're gonna say all these buzzwords So that when they take that first turn to alpha strike me They just hit a meat wall that cool you killed 100 points now my army swings and I've got 1,900 points coming in on your 500 Yeah, so let's talk about the nature of drops in the game right now and my estimation you're the everything clusters around one four five and infinite Yes Okay, I mean, I think I I do think there's still That's something something to be said for two and three in there, but yeah, like again. I'm talking about clustering Yeah, where does it where did like if I were to chart it out, right? You would they wouldn't be zero But you'd see spike spike spike And then just like but a bit of a bit of a bit of it. It should look like a heart monitor from there, right at like Yeah, yeah, whatever, okay Yeah, that's probably fair, but just the point that you know, like I think Two drops is a very coherent. Sure. There's plenty of armies that will two drop, right? That will fit in like yeah, oh, yeah That will take the your your basic unified battalion plus one other big monster thing. Exactly sure. Yeah, yeah Sure, um scaven are a great two drop army, right? You often have two big things you want to take two big leaders But when I say one four five It's because there's there's a pretty obvious battalion combination that equals those Sure, right Like one is you just fit in the unified battalion four is your your unit your battle regiment plus command And five is your battle regiment plus warlord and then more is your something else Right, right. Yeah, but I could see a battle regiment or hunters of the heartlands being a four drop as well Hmm But yes, yes, not to take away from the point to add to yeah, but yeah, totally fair. You're absolutely right at any rate the like The the reason I say that like those are the sort of where things where things group around is you should know those Numbers and know where you're at and then what chances that gives you Right, yeah, like if you're five drop that means against all the infinite drop people You get choice against the five drop people you get roll and a lot of the times against some very strong lists You you're not getting the choice Right, that's you have to know that Yes, and so like drops in deployment have to be this back and forth thing interacting with your list building Right, because if you're playing in an army or playing a list where you have like chaff for days High mobility and some kind of power protection Then sure you can be a million drops and probably not care Right Like smorgans Eshin list is probably a great example of this right like he could be a million drops and not care because he had like units He had ambushers, you know, he had stuff he could teleport around he could move his army very easily everybody could run and shoot Right, so the army could be suddenly very fast. It could just explode out of its zone So like he could be a million drops and it was irrelevant Right, if somebody handed him the first turn great He'll claim the points if somebody takes the first turn who cares they can't do enough damage And then he's just going to flood around Right So like if if that's the kind of thing your list can do So my point is these need to keep referring back up and down to each other Right and to list building our previous slide at the slide and like all of this needs to inform each other Right if you're playing Like a chafless Luminev Okay, then you probably don't want to be a million drops No, you can't afford to take the battalion for the extra artifact You're going for whatever sub faction you took and you're gonna like it And it's just that one right because you can't you can't afford for them to be able to get into your juicy stuff right with like You know without you having stuff in the way Right, they're gonna be able to to sort of control the the nature of the the flow of the battle So like you have to understand your list and how it's going to play. How will it deploy? What will its response be to the enemy's actions? How does that affect the drops I need to tailor my list to and then how does that factor back up into my list building to fit that So it's like yeah, you climb up you claw down you climb up you claw down right over and over again until you get to that balance I think that's how they interact right. None of these can be taken in a vacuum No, no, they can't I I completely agree that is And and the sooner us as the community can get in on this The better for the health of our game too. Sure And and soon eventually we'll see like yeah, you know, there are going to be more armies that don't care about drops They go into that that bajillion you don't mind But you got to build for it and you got to make sure you have the troops for it to do the extra chaffing And if it's again, you're bringing 50 sentinels a unit of 20 unit of 30 jack ballard styled now with a techless And the spell portal and he had one hero lord The venari arch region whatever is the guy on llama horse Yeah, you know and it's and then two units of 10 of the the pikes That's a very tight list and you need first turn or else you're just going to get blown off off the table That list sounds like a good argument for apex predators Of course he might just shove all the heroes But I mean that that's the thing that I like the most about apex predators is I hate seeing all these lists That have two measly little heroes, you know, five six ones or one forgot six No, I understand it was always the reason I defended the you know, the previous versions of that Yeah, and also deep can take a hit for that too in some of these more Like, you know, say you'll spam one more time Um, and it's well now it's an idol on and a king or maybe if you're doing the flip tide It's the the little foot wizard the tide caster and an idol on right, um On the on the whole l or y l or l wants to be a low trap and again like the first uh the smooth brain is They're a lot all less equal. They're a glass cannon like yeah, they're often assuming you're outside of huracan Yeah, right. They're a low mobility Elite fragile army. Yes Yeah, and you You know, you're gonna be playing in different missions and you really need to dictate what You what is optimal for you to do in round one what's optimal may be to Hop on objectives as opposed to getting pinned in your deployment I mean, I played so many games in 2.0 where I was trying out high drops lumenet And I would just get pinned in my deployment and I couldn't get caught back up in time Yep, and yeah, and they're really fragile all those sequel. They can be really fragile. You know, obviously not a metrica There are some exceptions, but generally they're fragile. So if you they get double turned, you know, your screens go away And they get into your sentinels. Well, it's game over at that point, you know, things like that It's kind of similar to what my what I was saying about daughters of k And I don't want anybody getting into the cauldron that can arrive the snake bows or it's game over right, right And then swaggy. Yeah, exactly like if you you have troops that can just deliver unbelievable pain But if they get jumped by the fights, they don't want to have it's over And you don't have chaff in LRL right Uh, so swaggy shadow said, can you explain why you would want first? Um Uh, would like to alpha but is standing on the objective that important Sure. So alpha lists will often want first high shooting lists will often want first Like tom took first turn quite a few times, right? And was just like just took the risk of the double Because you know, one of his lists was a barach sifflin list Right that had they could drop warlight warp lighting vortex on you out of spell in a bottle and just go guns blazin On you from the iron clad that moved like, you know, a billion bajillion bajillion inches in the pregame Right move. Yeah, their first hero phase or whatever the heck they can do whatever they're there There's always a I think he chooses the turn at half. But yeah, that's the point So like, you know The fact that he could get into people before they'd have any of their defenses up Like what they could they have an all out defense and maybe they put a lot best day ever on one of their heroes, right? But that's it Like they have limited options Yeah And also for LRL it's important to get the word say from teclis because you do tend to run elite And the grand scheme of things keeping your guys that much more alive Um, you know, if you're say something like a zytrek you can stack your pluses to cast pretty easy with teclis still being alive um, you can Lamb it and light really well through the star portal which people sleep on a bit and then this is where the oh I've got 30 archers that are re-rolling to fish for fives and sixes And all of a sudden that conversion rate and that math just jumps up Um Yeah, but beyond the alpha strike I think there is value like you can still sometimes want to go first if like for example if you are playing a Basically melee only army Right. Yeah, let's say they've only got melee. Yeah, fine You know, it might be the right answer to Let's take nergal as a good example. That's probably one, right? Yeah, where they don't have like in some builds. They don't have a huge amount of hitting power But they're hard to move Right, they kind of get stuck in It can be a good idea to sort of like get up there screen them out earlier You know, sort of like to exactly as as tyler said, you're not trying to alpha You're not going to go across the board and attack them. There's no reason to fight them But you can get out claim the appropriate objectives and the appropriate scenarios and sort of set the board up To prepare yourself against the double Right like you you kind like you have the time to like put all your buffs on Move into the exact position set up new like move your castle forward set up new double shaft lines You know, whatever you're doing Right to to sort of prepare yourself for the worst-case scenario But now they're going to have a really hard time shifting you and getting the full three points out of the objectives in the first round Right in certain scenarios So that can be the other reason to go first, right? You can force them into a position where maybe they only get one or two out of the basic objective points Yeah, I've got a I've got another way too. You could always move backwards and apply all your defensive buffs Sure Depending on the scenario of course for like what you're scoring or your sacrifice. Yeah, yeah Yes, but just take that step back. That's what I loved in 2.0 It's how far away some of the the starting lines were and it's like, yeah I'm going to give you first set up a double my cool I'm going to step backwards and shuffle my dudes And like what my yep, okay, then come up and then you double turn me It's like you just said one turn now. You have to be overextended on my side of the board here You your whole army isn't fast. You're going to be stretched out While my army is so condensed when I finally double turn you this isn't like a catch-up mechanic This is I end the game mechanic right yep Anything else one real quick. Yeah, good. Yeah, I just want to say real quickly on uh, lumina for what it's worth I've certainly have found the lore seeker to be a For a piece that can give you the choice or that can force your opponent to let's say go first Or to go second So even if you have high drops of luminous He's like a little ace up your sleeve that you depending on how you deploy him He can force your opponent into a specific decision He's kind of like a way to dictate priority around one without being low drop just for what it's worth anybody's interested in I mean the win seeker is is what he is, right? I mean, yeah, he's great He loves him too. Sure. Yeah Super tech piece Um, I might convince tom to do either luminous or settlers gain for as my partner and havex. So we'll see I might get him a finally into the elves Okay, all right. Yeah, I find the drop game guys just utterly fascinating like rocker You mentioned at the top of the show, you know hundreds of the heartlands warlord double warlord double bad reg A single bad reg like there's so much going on now and Hopefully we're still going to have this in a few months time once we start getting these battle tombs And then we're not just going to get back to crazy town with battle tactics everybody and Corbett telling everybody but we'll see because that's the fun bit because we're playing a pure 3.0 game without knowing What any of these new battle tombs truly look like? Yeah, but we could hope that everything's a soul like grave lords because that came out Great. It's transitioned well For all the worries that everyone's had We've seen tournament play with it go strongly And you know if we get more of those where it's not it doesn't come out overpowered in scaring everybody and freaking out You know, it'd be a win for the whole system All right Community comp our last topic of the day. So we're gonna move through this one kind of quickly But you know, this has been talked about a lot lately And I have pretty strong opinions on this and here's how my strong opinion goes Um any to should do whatever they feel is appropriate because it's uh, it's you know, it's instant meritocracy What I mean by that is like if you decide you want to comp something and no one buys tickets to your tournament your idea was bad It's that easy Okay Yeah, um pretty pretty straightforward marketplace. Yep. Exactly. Yes. It is it is truly it is actually a marketplace of ideas. Yes um and the The the the concept that we would like in some kind of structured way Create community comp. I hate From the bottom of my blackened soul And think it is completely insane and the wrong idea Like I don't mind the bottom up grass roots. Any to does what they see fit as always That's what makes tournaments interesting toos being kings Right, like I I sort of want pre unification idly or you know that that kind of thing I want like I want lots of city states, right? Lots of people making interesting decisions and and uh, and you know Sort of that rising and falling I have no No absolute faith in any way that we could turn this over to some kind of governing body And have them start sensibly laying rules on top of whatever gw Is doing and we all suddenly think that yeah, they're the they've they've cotton to the right thing Like yes, there are problems systematically in the game And we need to raise our voices and make sure that gw is aware of them in a in a You know sort of courteous and professional way, but make sure to make it clear that it's a problem And uh and those rules and issues should be fixed by the people who own the game It's their responsibility to do so As the game's designers Yes, not like there's there's no governing body. There's no Uh, there's no people i'm going to trust as an authority It just doesn't exist. So the only like as a as a community group And I don't want to see this This I I don't want to see the community suddenly split apart into incredibly divergent metas that further increase the barrier of entry on people going to tournaments Because that's what comp does these incredibly complicated comp systems that people lay over things to try to fix all the problems in the game Just create more barriers of entry to people ever going to tournaments because they don't know what the heck it's talking about They bought books. They think they understand the game and suddenly this tournament is playing by a completely different way Yeah And I just I I don't like it. I think it's net negative. I understand it's fixing problems that need to be fixed I also agree those problems need to be fixed. It's the wrong solution Um, it it doesn't do or accomplish what people think it does And there's no reasonable way to come to a consensus Uh on this if you're talking about like some smaller community Of a game that's more like unified in some way like adam just mentioned something like the blood bowl The previous blood bowl league where it was a dead game And they had no choice and they came together and formed a governing body and everybody got together and said You know worked This this is how we should run our games and this is what we're going to lay on top great. That's fine. That worked for that, right? That's just not going to be the case in a living game where stuff is changing constantly Who's going to agree what the how do we agree with the initial set of changes are? Who's going through and updating that because you don't just need to do it once. Who's now full-time job? Right. Yeah is keeping these things current Right Yeah, who's going through and updating these every time there's a points change every time there's an FAQ every time There's a new battle tone every time there's a change Who now has the invested constant authority and will and drive to not do this once but to do this every day For the next x years I just as a side note to this the Best example that I can think of in the six years was early on when we were in that 2015 free 2016 ghb stage So we had we had moe with his uh circle city clash I think it was and so-called moe comp, but I mean people may not even know about this and then moe comp led to Helan hammer Wayne to the south coast and south coast gt Yeah, and it was and it was rust and wait those guys getting together And they were essentially A shared baseline of comp for the community and it really became the the collective attractor if you will in the community But I mean they sure as hell didn't want that job permanently And I think it did it did meaningfully lead into the ghb and they were heavily involved in that process But yeah to me it's a pretty good example of what vences is talking about in terms of the challenges of trying to do something Like that on a permanent basis and actually getting by and everywhere. I just want to quick shout out welcome back Carina glad you enjoy the hobby cheating videos. Thank you very much. I hope they're helpful I'm glad to see you're getting into painting minis for d&d. I've been playing d&d for 32 years now still have a weekly game. So certainly understand that it's uh It's a it's a great time. All right at any rate Uh, yeah, I mean rocko What like is there anything I'm missing here because I see all the problems like I get the positives They're there, but it's a small pile and the negatives are a big pile Right, so I think Another thing that needs to be considered with this with those early things was not only Was aos one such the wild west we were also No community way we needed to do it. Yeah It was also a tenth a twentieth of the size the community was then that is now Yeah, and like if we look at what like the itc did for 40k for the past few years Or they like abandoned gw's tournament system and made their own that eventually got folded back in We we don't have the the manpower. We don't have the player base. We don't have the people. We're still a growing game This they're the logistics just aren't there Even in the best fever dream of this all working where we do have our own independent board of whatever The game keeps updating are we going to all all of a sudden turn our backs on gw and go? Yeah, that's nice. We're going to go do our own thing. We don't have a large enough player base to split To do these things to then go and say oh if the one system is better than the other and it There's just not enough of us at the end of the day And and the game's ever-evolving. We need such a robust system that we are not centralized enough to have Uh, maybe the australians can do it because they all freaking know each other But and they have their own meta way out there. I I got made in honor of australian. I don't know about the big sheep um, I I know About bendigo. I I ballerette. I can name a bunch of towns that sound like vows get thrown together, but Unless you have such a close-knit community like that It's just not going to happen Yeah, I mean the the the answer here is like I get why people want it because they don't feel like gw is responsive enough to to To the challenges, right? And that's probably true by the buy, right? I mean riot games isn't Go ahead. I just want to say this one Like uh league of legends and valorant, uh the riot games that that does patches for their own video games Like once a week to every two weeks Isn't responsive enough Yeah for their own player base and they're growing metas of all their craziness And why would we ever think a board game model game this kind of analog? World that we're bringing in here would ever have an apparatus Capable of doing this if a video game company. Yeah, hold on. I want to address them here over here T sirathi said it feels like most the arguments against some form of comp depending on the possibility of gw Doing something they've never shown they even want to do. I'm not saying that I that's not my argument at all at all So I'm going to repeat what I just said in case I'm being misheard It is gw's responsibility to fix this this junk that's wrong But even if they don't do it or do it wrongly that is irrelevant The problem with it is there is no single authoritative body that should be handed the power Of changing the entire game by fiat Increasing the barrier of entry of people at tournaments who are going to then keep a living system Of comp laid on top of this at all time that stays current responsive to every release battle tome f aq and points change Right and then it's adopted and feels like suddenly we're hedging out toos who want to do their own thing It actively makes the community worse Individual toos who feel that they have the power to operate within the space from a common set of rules and change what they want to change I'm fine with if at your tournament you want to make archae on 1200 points or not allowed or ban special characters over 500 Or whatever I don't care. I'm all about that the ones I like I'll go to the ones. I don't I won't as I said It's just a simple meritocracy. It happens easily and quickly if your ideas are good people come play your tournament If they're bad, they won't Right. Yeah, it's that simple But like the negative externalities here are so strong It's I'm not saying we shouldn't do it because it's because it's gw's responsibility I'm saying it's gw's responsibility and we shouldn't do it because All of the other things that are bad That's what i'm saying And I just think that list far outweighs the positives. I'm not saying there are no positives. There are Right if if magically we could get to a point where we had that governing body Where where they were making the right choices at all points in time. Sure There would be some positives They're really would like some of these silly things would get fixed Okay, so winston what what would you you know gunder your head you're forced to Go down this general path of community calm What how would you do it and the way that you thought was You know the least bad option I would write a set of potential recommendations that to's could choose to implement in their games or not And they're sorry in their tournaments or not Okay, can you expand on that? I mean, I would provide a menu of choices for ways that they uh For ways that for for individual rules like a buffet that they could choose from To implement in their tournaments that are all things that would seem to have a A at least the most minimally hurtful and maximum maximally positively impactful Interactions on the type of tournament they want and I would group them by the category of what are you trying to achieve? So I would drive them by value benefit statements What are you trying to achieve if you are trying to create this kind of a tournament? Then consider a bc and d if you are trying to create this kind of a tournament consider e f g and h Whatever And I would I would empower toos to make the decision through a um Through a You know there through their own decision making they know their local community They know their meta. They know their people who come to their tournament I why do anything but empower them? Right That was that is that that is the best way I could think of to do it Okay, so give me give me some examples of specific specifics like are we talking about 1,000 points? No special characters over 500 points a 500 points plus So go trick sneaks in, huh? Or is he getting the bump up or points plus? I don't care pick whatever you get, right? Okay, uh You know like the following units can only be reinforced once ever Right, uh Yeah, stuff like that Right Don't those kinds of things Okay And yeah noops plastic crack did have an awesome post On on this topic. So we've talked about him on the show quite a bit over uh recent months So yeah, folks can definitely find that uh on on his blog All right. Uh, yeah, that's okay. So that's interesting And would so would you would that be an effort where you're trying to get like Dave Griffin and Brenda Melnick and it's you know, name your favorite You'd have to make it like some you have to you have to get it like imbued with authority Which means you needed to gather together like a host of different toos and people who are sort of highly respected in the community You need to all draft this constitution together Right and and whatever like yeah, you've got to have your 1776 convention Right Like I sure you got to have your first and second constitutional conventions. I suppose as it were right Like you can't Yeah, like like wait you're gonna but I mean people will revolt Yes, there will be people who hate it. No matter how open you are And then you'll get in articles of confederation. You're like, okay, we got to redo this little bit. Hold on. What are we We got a revamp. We got a then you get a she's rebellion and then you get You're like, okay, maybe different countries do different things Maybe this could be something that the aos worlds organization Like if we're gonna say the top of the top of the top of whatever, right? I mean my answer tyler is gunned in my head. I my how do I do this? I say pull the trigger Almost made me break my no cursing thing. I'm trying to do for you. My goodness So so backing up to the start of those ventures that we were talking about the little marketplace of ideas meritocracy Now I've heard a lot. I Did the traditional miss 20 years of warmer fantasy, but I'd heard a lot that Fantasy 8. Yeah, man. We're in fantasy 8, you know, there were comp systems and that there were quite a bit of variants I don't know if that's true But that's what I'd heard eventually probably you maybe rock or you as well could speak on to this But what I what I'm hearing you say vents is that or at least what I'd heard Maybe this is telling if this is wrong is that yours and expressing an assumption That it would let's say be okay if we had A dozen more face hammers Which chose to have basically one page list Of here's what we're doing with this house rules. We're making a real change here folks So so there's an assumption that that would be okay Because I had been I had basically heard there are a lot of people who thought that that was pretty devastating To the warmer fantasy 8th community because there was not coherence Yeah across tournaments. Yeah, my argument is there's a real simple way that'll get decided whether or not face hammers massive changes We're a good idea How many people go to their tournament and what's the response they get at the tournament? If the if you if they get a lower attendance and the people who show up I'll tell them I didn't like this They'll stop It's that easy they won't do that again But you so you don't have the assumption that like prima facie what they're doing is a bad idea Prima facie no prima facie what they're doing conceptually is not a bad idea Correct. Now specifically the choices they made may have been a bad idea. Does that make sense? Okay Because the one dude running fox is that doesn't ever gonna show up to this event right like Okay, uh real. Let me answer john castler real quick. What does the comp part mean? Are they house rules or altering standing rules to the game? The the general concept here behind community comp is you somebody like some body some group some whatever In the community gets together and says this is a set of additional rules Changes and restrictions. We're gonna lay on top of the existing rules That are you know, this is the game company doing it, right? That is like this is how we're going to change the game like this model's banned This you can bring this army gets 200 more points Whatever whatever. I don't care like there's lots of ways you could do it, right? And and and that we all suddenly accept that now To return back to your question tyler, right? Yeah, um the Their concept of creating heavy changes I am not innately against is what I am saying The specific changes that they made I don't like very much and think that they went way too heavy-handed on some armies and just left other problems completely Love some seemingly overwhelmingly obvious a.k.a arcane and yeah off the table So So like and this is the problem with it in general, right? Is that it's like one of the one of that sort of constant refrains against community comp is like oh, it just picks new winners and losers I'm not going to say that because that's stupid. That's it. That's a smooth brain argument against it, right? That doesn't actually hold any water. Yes. It does pick new winners and losers. That's what we're doing here Yeah, right? I was trying to get rid of the current list of the theoretically small list of winners and make a broader set of winners, right? So like that's not an argument against it. I've never bought that. I think that's a bad faith argument, okay? So none of my argument relies on that The the the thing with face hammer was their changes are pretty heavy-handed and I don't think they were I don't think they are flush with reality That's my ultimate argument, right? But conceptually, I'm not against what they're doing Like you could have an individual to take a heavy-handed set of changes that were positive for their community Their meta and the termines they want to run A good example of this is steve herder and the holy events Steve has pretty heavy calm At holy havoc in the team tournament, you're not allowed to use special characters for their more than their foreign points or more I like that I'm a fan. That's because he's trying to present a very specific. It's a more narrative focused tournament It's what he's trying to do. There's like a specific story. He's trying to tell Yeah, right and he said a dirty word though that she said narrative gaming I understand but like steve runs a fantastic tournament and he has more people signing up for it every year Hmm people have voted in the meritocracy. They've said we like that this type of tournament exists. It's different Right and and we this group of people who go That is continuing to grow. We want to see it continue Yeah, right. I I'm glad we're drilling down on this because again I I've heard this argument a lot that is expressing this assumption That if we had a whole bunch of face hammers or holy wars, you know, that is events That are going harder on a particular end of the spectrum harder on the quote-unquote cop As opposed to like Nash con isn't really going that hard David's doing, you know, we did two list format. We introduced some schemes some different secondaries. It's not really that hard That there's an assumption. I'm here all the time that that is going to be Pretty strong net negative for the ecosystem for the community if we had that and that's kind of what I'm questioning If that yeah, I it will never get there because I think most the community There's a large part of the community that wants a fairly set of That wants a set of fairly standard tournaments run pretty close to the rules. Like that's the taste That's what the market has spoken to right and then it wants ancillary events that that are interesting and different The raws of the world the holy events of the world, right? That shoot a different type of player and that kind of thing like I think the market's already been pretty clear on this So, you know, I don't know that it would outright be a net negative Maybe it would maybe it wouldn't right if every time I went to a tournament I had to ingest like five pages of new Specific army changes it'd be like oh geez, but I I just yeah, I think that could be a negative, right? Yeah, but at the same time I just don't see that as being a reasonable way this is going to run Because I think people will just revolt and stop going to those events, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, right? I mean for me with just just really quickly Like to speak to like the fantasy battle at eighth So I was in fifth and sixth edition fantasy as a as a young kid Tail end of fifth through sixth and I stopped because you know, you go to college and you hit ice You know like oh, I'm gonna do cool stuff and keep my nerd stuff private And then I don't want to bring it with me to college or whatever And I wanted to come back And what would have been eighth and I looked at all these comp things that I'm like listen man I don't even know the base game And you're going to be doing all this crazy stuff that unit sizes have gone ridiculous For like a 60 man unit of just a regular group of dudes and it's like 200 300 points You're like, huh, wait. Why why do I when they're making like little models to represent like 12 dudes? It's like a table, right? You put onto the movement tray to be like, yeah So you don't have to buy all the models I'm like, so why are we comping this to make the make the unit sizes so big if you buy an extra stuff Because no one wants to buy the models from the company and then the game died And I'm like, I don't I don't need that in my life. There's other things I could be doing I could be playing games with my friends and not go into these weird tournaments And then having our own fun with decent enough base rules And I like the models and you know, there's there's more things and I'd need to get more invested And there needs to be more of a structure and if it's there's 60 70 different ways to play the game within an hour radius of me What you know, which one do I know is to me, right? If I disagree with 69 of the other ways and all of a sudden all my play Experiences are going to be non-existent But then if I'm trying to get 60 70 different rule sets Because each little club has their own thing or each state or each region or each set of tournaments That's that's a lot of free time. I don't have if this game is Generally viewed as you know, your your parents with young kids and have Orham you're lucky you get a game or two a month in that is a lot of investment Yeah, yeah, I mean no one's gonna have there's always the aos dad game You know challenge, right that this is a dad game the average player of age of sigmar is 35 years old with kids, right? Like I don't know that's true, but I know that's true. I was at the tournament this weekend I looked around the room Okay, I like I can do the math and uh, there wasn't it wasn't exactly a room full of zoomers You know, I mean like it was like it was most most people fell into quite a specific demographic Right And my young millennial ass over here. Yes as we mentioned off camera. Yeah I'm not I'm not the standard. I'm not the I'm not the norm and I'm okay with that You're still like you're still with it certainly within the standard deviation that would lead to the average. Yes Yes, uh, yeah at any rate um Yeah, I see my youtube demographic too for my own videos. I know what y'all are out there like yeah, like I look at Yeah, I look at the this yeah, I feel like any of us who are on youtube We look at the it gives you an age breakdown of your stats and it's like, I know what bar is the biggest, right? Yeah So, uh, do cats count if you can't afford to have kids a hundred percent. I only have dogs kids are Got my dog. Yes. Um, but yes Uh, okay. I'm also older than that too by the by so there you go. Um All right, I won't tell anybody. I think we beat this one into the ground But There you go. Uh, there's my short discussion on comp hilarious Okay Well gentlemen, this has been a lot of fun. These are our thoughts on 3.0 so far after our experience I hope this is all helpful for everybody. Hey, if it was helpful, why don't you hit that like button? It's so easy and so nice and it makes my day when you do that I love seeing people hit like it makes me very and subscribe Yep, hit that subscribe hit bells. Click everything down there that seems reasonable for you to click You know, that's what I would like you to do. Yeah bells Description to like buttons all those kinds of things to start clicking stuff share stuff go nuts Uh, just just click all them buttons At any rate Rocco, absolute pleasure having you on the show brother Thanks for having me guys. This has been great. Hopefully I can come back. I didn't make too much of an ass in my Opsie. There's my one curse I barely counts man You're good. You're good. You're still firmly in PG-13. You're okay. Wonderful. Wonderful Uh New says the little report flag. Okay. Don't hit that one. Not that one. Like I said, everyone down there that makes sense Uh, at any rate, thank you all so much for watching. We really appreciate it as always We'll see you next wednesday Bye With a new meeting type