 Welcome I'm James Milan this is talk of the town and we've got a legislative update with our state representative Dave Rogers Dave Thanks for coming as always great to be here. We always appreciate conversations with you. So when we were talking last time We spent a lot of time talking about the budget and I will I will remember It's easy to remember the fact that you were very optimistic that you were speaking about something that usually is you know Frustrating that it can be a frustrating thing, etc. And you were calling it. This is a good budget. Yeah, lots, you know, just Meaning more money for important programs, etc. Right. So it wasn't everything was Things are a little bit further along at this point than they were when we last spoke So let's start by just getting an update from you on on progress Of the budgetary process, but also of the things that really matter to you that are that were good news there Sure, great. Well, I guess the key thing One of the biggest things in the budget that was passed Was the biggest year-over-year increase in education aid from the state In terms of a percentage increase I think in two decades So big money for education which benefited the communities I represent, but also the state as a whole That's great news I mean education is the key to the future Every student deserves a shot at the American dream an equal opportunity. So And it's an investment in our future And I think it's something that has driven my public service and Something I've always advocated for so certainly pleased to see that and And then we just passed the Student Opportunity Act Which will so the budget this year was a down payment on that so a big increase But then we just passed the Student Opportunity Act Which is once in a generation Transformational investment in education because there was the Foundation Budget Review Commission. They did a deep dive I had cosponsored legislation to help create the Foundation Budget Review Commission They did a deep dive on the data on all the funding streams for different based on different factors and Determined that there were four factors that were causing the state to lag on fully funding Education most education funding is at the local level right so in the towns I represent Cambridge Arlington Belmont comes from city government town government but state aid is important and What the study I found is that four factors Educating those with English as a second language those with special education needs The cost of health care providing health care and then finally disparities in different zip codes around the state From lower income areas to higher income areas those four main factors had caused the state to lag With funding or not fully fund Education and we Passed a bill that will spend billions more over the coming The figure I'd heard is like 1.5 billion or something like that over seven the next seven years Yeah, but then then that once that's in the budget mm-hmm that becomes the new baseline And that's the thing about budgeting so that the conversation is always will it get a 2% increase or 3% increase or 1% increase Or be level funded hopefully never cut mm-hmm. So once you establish that as the new baseline Right then it is you think oh, yeah, I mean if this is billions more for education and So it's just a great development. So so the state budget which the house took up back in April Was a down payment on funding and then going forward We'll see more funds for education across the board and by the way the student opportunity act well went well beyond the four factors I was going to just ask that whether Building authority for fully funding charter school reimbursements to districts and and in lots of other ways so So basically the student opportunity act is Tackling all four of those areas, but also in addition to that a number of others going beyond I mean a lot of times when a piece of legislation or a new law is crafted developed and passed on Beacon Hill There are supporters. There's always a critic who said well you could have done this a little differently or that a little differently Just one huh well or more than one right right, but It was a universal chorus of a claim when the student opportunity pack I mean past all across the board from whether it's the teachers unions whether it's outside advocacy groups whether All across the board education advocates said wow homerun and so anytime you can be part of a process that delivers a homerun on Something as important as education It it's a tremendous moment. Yeah, you feel yeah one is why I got into this line of work Mm-hmm is to try to make a positive difference in the world and the community my our small corner of the world and Then the Commonwealth as a whole and on a broader scale I mean we've seen Massachusetts be a leader on health care Obamacare was based on a law passed here and in lots of other areas where Massachusetts becomes a leader where the other 49 states or federal policymakers can look at what we're doing. Mm-hmm, so and I always say lately that I'm mindful of the moment where we have Impeachment proceedings going on at the federal level where we have Gridlock and dysfunction I saw Susan Rice who was Obama's national security advisor interviewed recently You know other you know along with Secretary of State Secretary of Defense National security advisor as you knew serving at the most the highest echelon Of government and Susan Rice said something pretty profound and interesting and I follow policy and politics I live it daily. Yeah, and But she said our divisions at the national level our inability to broker deals Even on things that should be on balance relatively less controversial such a traditionally have been infrastructure Okay, so it's not a Republican bridge. It's not a Democratic bridge. It's not a libertarian bridge It's a bridge and it needs to be fixed But our federal government can't even reach Agreement on basic things that are the government function and to get to get to my point what Susan Rice said the national security advisor said is our Inability to govern ourselves at the federal level has become our number one national security threat Because if we're weak at home It makes it more difficult to project American values and leadership around the world if you're if you're Withering away from within right How can you project influence and project American values around the world of democracy liberty and freedom? So I realize I'm getting a little bit far feel but but my point is that how does that impact? Well when we here are Doing meaningful important things where they are difficult nettles some public policy challenges But we're able to through a legislative process listen to all stakeholders all points of view and craft a Meaningful once in a generation transformational investment in education What I say is it is critically important that we do so now more than ever because of The dysfunction at the federal level the states Must go into the vacuum the void and lead and and then hopefully These ideas that were Kind of we're fostering here right right percolating in the lab the laboratories of democracy as Brandeis called the state Become a beacon For a future time when we will see the ship turn at the federal level So again, that's my phrase. I've been finding myself using a lot lately I am mindful of this moment and it energizes me it gives me a great purpose to the work I do and So that's why it's been a remarkable time to serve in our state legislature because we're doing a lot I always wish we would do more right. I always want to be forward-leaning I never rest on your laurels But if you look at the last four or five years whether it's sweeping criminal justice reform women's pay equity a bill I introduced the pregnant workers fairness act, which is the creation of a major new civil right for women In the workplace and the New York Times had done a big study that one of the biggest barriers women face is Pregnancy discrimination, so it's nothing less than the creation of a major new right So and that's the tip of the iceberg the four or five bills. I just mentioned there's 30 others I can mention so again. I wish always to do more always be forward-leaning But you and I've discussed in the past that you know as you've often pointed out that public policy making is complicated it is and difficult maybe much harder than people, you know Out here in the public have a recognition of and so when you can like you said string together a number of major Pieces of legislation that are going to be you know having effects and beneficial effects We assume for the population four years to come. I assume you do need to pause and enjoy that moment Yeah, there's a lot of work that you're doing that doesn't find fruition in that way I think right right and and I think I think that's a good way to to frame it and Another one is 3200 megawatts of offshore wind 800 megawatts is the vineyard wind project. It's being temporarily held up by the Bureau of Ocean Management at the federal level We're hopeful to see that Clear I think they're looking at the fisheries the effect of these big offshore wind projects on a variety of fronts how they'll impact fisheries and Maybe migratory bird patterns and other other factors But 800 megawatts is I because I sort of said to folks that I work with if I'm talking to people in the community I can't just say 800 megawatts unless they're an electrical engineer or they it's their business or something They know a good deal about right So I did some digging some research and 800 megawatts is enough to power 400,000 homes 3200 megawatts, which is what's been authorized by the legislature is up to 1.6 million homes. It's a huge it was so do you mean 400,000 homes for a year or for for for how like for how long Well, assuming the wind keeps blowing right in perpetuity just into perpetuity awesome So it's enough to power 400,000 homes. That's that's where they get their power from I mean, but that's the first of 800 megawatts of 3200 megawatts now another 800 megawatts just went out for a bit so Gas leaks a major bill to repair gas leaks Increasing the RPS the renewable portfolio standard, which is the big investor-owned utilities the amount of energy They must procure from clean energy source. So again, I I've said this before in our conversation. I'll say it again It's not a reason to rest on your laurels. It's it's not a reason to say well, we've got that done Put your feet up. No, I if you look at the suite or the portfolio of legislation I've introduced you a quickly discern that I'm not right your your ambitions right now because I mean if you're gonna do this work the The only reason in my opinion to do this work is if you are driven Truly driven to make a significant difference for the people that you represent and those throughout the Commonwealth So that's my mission. I Take it seriously You know, I try to bring joy to public service as serious as what we do is I try to do it For lack of a better way of saying it with joy in my heart with energy, but and I try to But for all that said of doing it with joy in my heart Got it quite a sense of seriousness of purpose about right got to get things done right really and when we do get things done It's it's rewarding. Yeah, so congratulations on that, but we're gonna move right on to To more stuff that's still on on the table and we're wondering Where the you know, where the winds are blowing here So I don't want to get the the official name of the committee that you are chair of Wrong, so would you just tell me I'm the chair of the cannabis policy committee cannabis policy committee It's the first time I've been chair of a committee right and You know, it takes time to kind of work your way up to that Well, I'm glad I asked because I would have forgotten the policy Yeah, I think it was called marijuana and there was a sense that Some believe the sort of etymology or the origin of the word marijuana is has a pejorative connotation So the thought was to change cannabis nice and scientific, so it was marijuana policy last term It's now cannabis policy fair enough one way or the other that puts you right in the heart of the One of the you know topics of great interest currently Out here in the public and that is vaping and the dangers thereof The actions of the government in response to what we know or don't know about that. So specifically there is a Band on certain vaping products that I believe is now been passed by the legislature Yeah, what what happened is increased taxation in that area So what happened is as you know, there's been a spate sadly mm-hmm of deaths Around the United States including some here. I believe three two or three Obviously that's Incredibly serious and it's a public health threat that the governor responded to with a ban Now there is no more dramatic step a governor can make than a ban and So people looked at that and wondered Is that trying to solve the problem with a sledgehammer When you could be solving it with a scalpel in other words was a ban truly called for it Put a lot of these vaping stores including one in Davis Square. I happen to walk by they're shuttered They're closed now if that's required it's required public health and safety is paramount but Many said that what are really causing the harm are the illegal vapes There is an underground market for vapes that people buy people buy them online Now with so much e-commerce or internet commerce a lot of these vapes are being bought online some are just made by local Unlicensed manufacturers and so people said well while the government governor may be well-intentioned Did he go too far with a total ban? Mm-hmm, and so litigation commenced and even the governor when he put the ban in place said People can avail themselves of the courts and so people did The litigation has proceeded and what happened is a court ruled that With regards to most products the ban can stay in place But that with regard to cannabis that really only the CCC the regulatory authority could could Completely ban it because you have medical cannabis users. That's one of the ones one of the things I want to ask you They're medicine And it's how many medical cannabis users get their medicine so what happened then is As to the judge's ruling It expired it said that the the ban on medical vaping of flour As opposed to liquid tea a liquid cannabis Would it would expire on November 12th earlier this week and the CCC? Then came out With their own but it's deferring to the CCC so that the superior court the judge ruled the CCC could intervene The CCC then put out a statement Saying that it would the ban would continue Except for medical flour patients so cannabis patients medical patients not adult use Can use it now and then the CCC also announced this week. They're going to take up the issue of regulation and Of how to regulate these vapes Meanwhile the CDC the Center for Disease Control at the federal level believes they have identified the culprit It's called vitamin E acetate and the CDC believes I guess through autopsies or other examination of medical records have determined that those who Died from this showed evidence of vitamin E acetate in their lungs Yeah, this is very recent. Yeah, this is all very recent I mean as I said the judge's ruling was just fact of this week the CCC the cannabis control Commission our state regulatory authority Came out this week. I mean here we're sitting we for folks. I don't know at home We're sitting here on the in mid November on Thursday the 14th. Yep So this was number just two days ago. Mm-hmm. And so things are just kind of unfolding in this area Literally as we but it's mostly been Regulatory as opposed to legislative meaning it's been the governor right and And then the state and the judge and the courts So it's both the judiciary and the executive branch the governor and our courts as opposed to in our right But there now is some legislative action on the table, right? Well, there could be or could be okay depending on the outcome of What the CCC does what the courts do and what the governor does? We can react into that and if we think the law has been crafted in a way that's doesn't make sense to protect public health and safety while at the same time Not being a case of overreach where you've not only protected public health and safety so much that you've you've gone beyond What you need to do and thereby forced a lot of Patience to be in a tough spot so it's a for lack of a better way to put it a fluid situation that we need to watch and We'll be prepared to act if we need to So but right now it's really kind of in other bodies courts court at the moment in other words The CCC has to continue to Evolve their own policy around this Yeah, that's correct to get more information from right cdc as you mentioned. Yeah, etc. So things are As you said fluid and we can check back in with you. Yeah during our next conversation I imagine there will be progress to report on at that point. Yeah, I mean anytime you have deaths or injuries We're getting into incredible serious thing government does well that and I know I have to be fair The governor took a lot of heat And as chair of the committee I had a lot of folks from the industry come to me Including adult use and say this is terrible. This is wrong. I said well look People have died I'm not a doctor Right, I don't died in the steering right. I don't have a master's in public health the governor I presume has highly qualified public health experts advising him He thought it prudent Given that there have been deaths to put a ban in place Now the courts have said the ban went too far For medical vaping of cannabis if you're an actual patient Mm-hmm, and that's fine in other words I guess I wasn't as prone to become hyperbolic about this and this is so terrible what the governor's done He's trying to protect lives right and and and the People have availed themselves of our court system the courts have weighed in now so Yeah, and again you as you mentioned there's a You know, it's there's just a difference Fundamental difference once people start dying of something that again is not explained or understood at that time and And that seems like one of the fundamental Responsibilities of government to respond to such situations absolutely whether it bans the right way or the wrong way And whether there's something else that could be more scalpel like than sledgehammer like etc All that is to be debated and worked out But none the last government response is something we would all want in that situation. Absolutely, which leads me to ask you a Lot of times we're talking about specific programs legislation Bills pending things coming up etc. And we ask you about those I want to step back for a second with the remainder of our conversation and just ask your Opinion your thoughts as a somebody who operates in this environment about a central question that's raised by the vaping situation here and that is the the Dynamic between What we always see as personal responsibility. We're all responsible for our own conduct There's lots of people as we know lots of Americans out there who think Government stay out of my business, you know, I I will I am an adult and I will be responsible for my behavior, etc So you have a question, you know when when it comes to vaping etc for many many people This is a voluntary thing. This is not medication, etc. This is something that they're choosing to do, right? Then it turns out to be dangerous the government Feels the again a responsibility to intervene. So what I would ask is as between personal responsibility of individual citizens and governments Obligation to for to safeguard public safety or to you know to promote public safety How do you see? You know government's role in that situation and your role as a legislator in dealing with these kinds of Difficult problems which against could be interpreted as hey That person's making that decision. They're gonna have to live with it or not sure well folks decide they want to as a maybe for Recreation or adventure they go skydiving But I'd like to believe we would all think there should be at least some sensible regulation of skydiving companies Folks choose to get on a plane to travel all the time for business or pleasure But I think all of us want to have a strong federal aviation administration With engineers and aeronautical engineers and air traffic controllers and the like to make sure the planes we get on are safe in other words We do live in a society. It's free. I Definitely believe deeply in liberty and that people should have sort of maximum freedom to pursue their dreams and live their lives on the other hand We have to have a sensible regulatory framework in different spheres of our lives and in regulating businesses regulating all sorts of things To protect public health and safety and and it's a great question And because there's always an inherent tension in those two competing things liberty freedom and yet protecting public health and safety And where do you where do you personally fall there? As a legislator, do you think do you take do you think each? each Time so this kind of thing would arise you just would have to look at the specific circumstances and make your determination that way Yes, or okay, I mean to cut off the rest of the question No, that's what I mean I think you framed it so well that I would just quickly interject yes I mean it each situation is fact dependent fact specific Often scientists engineers and experts have to weigh in and It's like I think we talked about before we came on air That Sometimes folks want a simple pithy bumper sticker slogan But in fact most public policy questions are complicated and you do need to have experts You need to hear from all the various stakeholders The law is about drawing lines and the question is where do you draw the line? It's not perfect Lawmaking is is imperfect But you try to get as close to the appropriate place to draw lines in the law as you can And so does that mean when you say that you would treat things on a case-by-case basis in terms of you're Determining what you think is right to do Does that mean that there you could imagine that there would be situations in which you would say You know no that really is a kind of more a question of personal responsibility and people need to take Responsibility for their behavior and there's not a role for government and reg and government's regulatory authority there Well, I mean personal responsibilities important As you say we all have a responsibility to govern our own conduct and Yet we know the human behavior is such that in certain spheres you need to have rules guidelines regulations and so That's sort of the balance that's always being struck Mm-hmm in the lawmaking process and the regulatory process I'm really not trying to push you into a corner. I promise, but I'm just curious whether in some way you're saying that you part of what motivates you as as a legislator as part of the governmental apparatus is in some ways to protect people from themselves Or from their worst instincts or decisions or things like that Is that part of what government does as far as your perhaps? Yeah, I mean I'm sort of thinking out loud Sure as I tend to do from time to time. I mean almost if you looked at a Belt curve of human behavior, and there's sort of the median or the middle where most people's conduct, but then there are either side and Think of investing. Are you a high-risk investor that wants to put your money in speculative small? Capitalization stocks or do you want to put all your money in a money market? account that will never go down in value, but won't go up as much either and Government does have a role in financial regulation to make sure the stock market and the financial products that you or I might look at Not that I have a ton of money to put into them, but what money I might have or you might have that you are in a sense protecting investors from Not only themselves, but unscrupulous financial practices So keep in with the world of vaping Are there unscrupulous manufacturers or online or even if they're not unscrupulous, which would imply bad intent? Just negligent they don't have the necessary capacity to Create the vape pen or whatever these devices are in a way that's safe for the public so Maybe it's not only just protecting folks from the cells as you phrased it, but more protecting the public from shoddy manufacturing practices and the like Unsafe conditions Well, I appreciate your being willing to think out think aloud And on the air about something that I'm sure you don't often, you know, have to have to probe No, and I appreciate sort of thought-provoking questions It's it makes my job more interesting and I enjoy these kind of conversations But they're you know, they're they're often not one is not one easy answer fair enough and we will never hold you I promise to easy answers We will only hold you to coming back and continuing these conversations. Well, thanks. It's great to be here I always appreciate it and I love being of service to the community Yeah, it's always energizing to talk to you in addition to illuminating so We genuinely appreciate it. Thank you. So on behalf of our state representative Dave Rogers, this is talk of the town I'm James Milan and we appreciate your being here