 Okay, so we just get back to that question which Divya asked, how does one gain confidence and trust of the leader? Well, again, just to remind us that, just to reiterate that it is commitment and faithfulness and being consistent in what we are committed to and to have a, and let that be something that is consistent over the period of time. I'm just reminded of Acts chapter 7, Acts chapter 6, sorry. So this is what they said when they wanted to search out people, seven men who are going to kind of look after this distribution, daily distribution of food. So the first thing was good reputation, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom. And these qualities is what they wanted to look for, very visible, like good reputation which means people also, you know, we build a reputation with people and it happens over a period of time. How is the reputation built? Because it's not a one-time thing, you know, it's like people see and then they say, okay, this is what we see in this person, right, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom. So and also we go on to see that they actually did, they were people of prayer, etc. They ministered and then we see great things happening, right, they ministered in the power of the Holy Spirit as well. And when we read about Stephen, we read about, you know, so very committed, commitment did not favor in the face of danger and imminent death, right, till the end, faithfulness and he was committed. So we see that. These are qualities which really give, you know, if you are a leader, which will give you the confidence that you can rely on, you know, such and such a person. So this is what we see in the world, right. Also, I would say that, you know, there are times when people recommend people, right, people whom we trust and know they recommend and then they say, okay, you know, this person is good, of course, we need to see for it ourselves. But then we recommend. And that's what the Barnabas did, like to solve. So Barnabas actually took him and introduced him and say, you know, this is, this is someone whom I noticed my soul and then he takes Saul and introduces and kind of gives him that, you know, that opening and that encouragement. So we see that, right, he kind of connects him to other leaders and who, who noticed the call and encourage him in the call. So, you know, that also happens, right. Okay, let me just quickly share that to-do list, which might be helpful. I'll put it on the stream, but I'll just quickly go through that, right. Okay, here we go. Okay, it's called, it's just coming up on your screen. Okay, it's called the 18 minutes daily thing, daily, whatever, list. So it's first five minutes, okay, you actually sit down to do the list and what will, and decide, okay, how, what are those areas that I need to cover. So it's basically a six area, six main areas if you want to look at, you know, so it's, it's not just one list and one area, these are, you know, at least six or, I mean, to a max of six, right, six areas. So we look at that list, I mean, this is just one of the tools, okay, this is not the thing, but I found this useful to do. So one minute of every hour that you work, you can actually set a time for that particular task and after every hour, you check the list, okay, and see what has happened and what, am I getting distracted, am I doing what needs to be done, you know, so it helps to refocus. Then at the end of it, you do, so it means that you would have spent about, if it's a typical eight work, you would have spent about eight minutes on that, right, so first five minutes to do the list, eight minutes, I'll just review or the refocus and then the evening, at the end, again, five minutes to review how is it, you know, did I waste any time, etc. So, of course, I don't do it very diligently, this five minutes and refocusing every one minute, but what I do use, what I found to be helpful is this, you know, I'm just trying to see if there's an image of it in just a minute. No, I don't think I have that image, okay, I don't have that. Okay, anyway, I'll share these two with you and you can, so yeah, so what I do is actually typically, you know, have, so I have these six, or maximum six areas, so I have, let's say, my areas would be okay, marriage ministry, you know, whatever needs to be done in that, like people come and apply for the marriage, marriage preparation, for marriage to be solvenized, so I have that as one of the things, okay, what needs to be done in that, then maybe it could be things like, okay, order of service needs to be planned, or these people need to be, you know, put in touch with a marriage facilitator so that they can start the process and maybe some, we do an assessment after they finish about five lessons, you know, I have a meeting with the parents and with the couple and have a chat with them, so, yeah, so that's, so it'd be various things like that, maybe informing the registrar about the wedding date and so on, so marriage would be one, worship to be one, you know, okay, maybe I'm leading worship this Sunday and I need to prepare for that, so set list, scheduling of practice, informing the team, so things like that, then I could have something, since I take care of one of our church locations, so, okay, APC South, so things that needs to be done, now it's, we're reaching the end of the month, so roster for the next month for, you know, these are some of the admin work, right, so planning and administration thing, for the roster for the entire month, so maybe the set up, the sound heads, the guys who actually handled the sound, right now I'm rostering, so there's no, you know, people who make the lead in the declaration, again, right now I'm rostering, so I need to do that, so so things like that, right, different rosters, children's church worship team, worship leaders and rostering, so those are some things, okay, so that could be one area, so things like that, so what is it that I need to do daily, so we have these areas, and so, you know, you don't drop one area completely, just moving, you know, with all these areas simultaneously, so so that's a specialty or the typical characteristic of this Peter Bergman's to-do list, which is not just one full list, where you lose focus, but then six, at least six areas where you mark that area and you use it, and if you time box that, you know, each of the tasks, and then review it, then it's great, it helps, right, so I'll put it on the stream, you'll find that useful, I'm sure, okay, right, okay, so we're looking at reliability, you know, responsible, and also excellence, you know, excellence is a very relative thing, because it's not perfection, it's not that everything, there's a, you know, there's no hair out of place, it's not that, but the person is doing their best, okay, the best of their ability, they're giving their best, and they've worked hard, they've given their best effort, and so that is what we are saying, you know, excellence, and also we can, you know, define standards for excellence, right, for whatever area we can say, okay, this is what we are going to be looking at in this particular month or this particular year, we can constantly change that benchmark, but do they have excellence in that, or are they very complacent in what they do, you know, it's okay, you know, it's fine, this is what I can, this is what I will, you know, it's okay, right, so do they have that kind of an attitude, now, well, people can actually grow into it, right, if they want, as long as they say, okay, I want to do the best, and I want to do a good job, and I want the outcome to be good, right, if they have that in their heart, then we can actually, you know, kind of fine-tune that, nurture that, and say, okay, why don't you look at this standard, okay, you want something that is whatever you put on screen, you want that to be error-free, right, so why don't we look at that, no grammatically, no error, no spelling mistakes, let's look at that, so those can be some of our, you know, the standards of excellence, right, okay, then the other thing is that continuous growth, this also, you know, maybe people need some inspiration, maybe people need, maybe they're not even, you know, considered, sorry, this, right, so people, some are very innately curious, and they want to learn each and everything, some maybe not, but, you know, this is something that she can inspire people, right, that they grow in all areas, and continue to learn to be inspired, inspired, curious, and they want to grow, so this is very important, even for us, personally as leaders, only when we grow can we take others to the levels where we have grown, right, we can't push people beyond, you know, where we are, right, to inspire, to take people to where we are, is something that we can do, so which means that we need to be constantly and consistently growing ourselves, right, especially in terms of maturing to Christ-likeness, continuously growing, okay, one very other, you know, thing that we need to notice, along with, this is an area of, you know, character, is that though they don't have any personal agenda, what do we mean by that, means that though, if, you know, some people say, okay, I want to serve, but behind that is really, you know, what they actually mean is I want to be known, right, I want to be visible, so okay, people are saying I want to serve, fine, you serve in an area which is, you know, non-visible, right, that is also serving, it's not like you're putting in front of everyone, putting on display, but you know, you serve in this particular area, which is maybe like, you know, you need to come in and open the place and arrange the chairs, not a very visible thing, right, to, you know, you finish your task even before people come and then after people have left, you're stacking up things and putting it back, not very visible again, right, but if a person has a very personal agenda of, I just want to be known here, I want to be elevated to a position here, then, you know, then we know that, okay, this person has a personal agenda, they just come so that it's a selfish interest, right, so if that is there in people, then either we need to work at it to make sure that that's, that doesn't continue, you know, and how does that happen? Well, by example, personal example, where we say, okay, this is what serving is, right, by teaching and by principle and by preset and by personal examples, so by preset, we mean, okay, this we show them from the word, okay, this is what serving is, this is what, you know, the Lord Jesus himself, this is how he served, so this is how we serve and, you know, this is what we do, so by precepts, so they get an understanding and by example, so if we teach and then if that is not seen in our lives, then it's a very mixed signal that we are sending out, right, so I need to see it in our lives and then, well, people do change, right, so that's the one, that's one thing that we need to clearly look out for, right, no personal agenda. The other thing is the gifting and calling, gifts and the call of God. Now, we know that, you know, certain areas or all areas has its own, like, God has placed each member in the body to carry out the different function and there is a gift which enables that particular function, right, there's a gifting which enables that call, right, if you look at the five-fold, yes, you know, we know that, you know, there's that, this is the call of God and there is the gifting which, well, let's say, if it's the apostolic, well, we see, you know, certain, certain traits and certain gifts that flow along with it, right, if it's a teaching, then you see that gifting which flows along with it, so the gifts which a company actually confirm the call, right, so maybe a person is desiring to be something that they don't have the gifting for, they don't have the, you know, natural ability for and, you know, they're just struggling, right, so we can actually help them and put them in areas where they are gifted and called so that they enjoy doing what they're doing, right, so to recognize that, okay, do they have the gifted call and they do have a call, now is this what God is calling them to do, what do you design, right, and what are they saying when they talk about their testimony and how God has led them and, you know, we get an understanding, okay, this is how God has led them, this is how God has called them, what God has called them to do and so on, so we can reaffirm that, right, and we notice certain things that flow, you know, certain gifts that are flowing in their lives, so we can, you know, we can encourage them to grow in that gifting also, right, so these are some, this is another thing to find out, okay, another thing is are they good followers, you know, we looked at it earlier also, like the Lord Jesus, he did what he saw the Father do, he heard, he was waiting on the voice, on the instruction of the Father and he did that, right, he valued the words of the Father, so not only did he value, but he, you know, carried it out, he was obedient and he knew the purpose, so to be a good leader is also means that you're not hesitant to do what needs to be done, you're not hesitant to, you know, do certain things that carry out instructions, okay, okay, here's a question, in a workplace setting, managers might have a tendency to push their team towards being more and more visible, okay, how can a believer strike a balance between the agenda of the boss and the employee's godly standards, okay, pushing more and more visible in the sense, can you just explain that to me? Yeah, in the sense of, like, even if the job at hand is being taken care, you know, in order to get, for example, I'm just saying, for example, if there is a, like a rating or performance rating, so it's like, for beyond, like beyond expectations, what the boss can say is, okay, you need to be more, like, pushing towards more of you know, visibility towards the client in terms of, okay, you have to improve in terms of that in this, it's not wrong, but sometimes it becomes too much stressful. I see, okay, so what you're saying is the reporting of the task done, right, or of a project done, so that the person evaluating understands what was done, so you're saying, okay, to push it beyond more and more, in the sense, reporting what was done, even every small thing you want to show it as, showcase it as something that was special, is that something on those lines? Yes, yes. Yeah, so I think, yeah, so definitely there needs to be you know, a presentation of what was done, otherwise the, you know, communication of what was done, otherwise, you know, that is why we have reports and appraisals and so on, so otherwise they, people cannot assess and evaluate the work, so as long as, you know, you know it, okay, this is what is, this is what I've done and this is what I'm presenting, and there is a way of presenting in a good way, right, so that it is, like the proverb says, you know, a word fitly spoken at the right time is like, you know, apples of gold in settings of silver, you know, saying that, okay, it is something which is presented well, a word that is spoken at the right time is like that, so in similar ways, we can, you know, present it well, but not exaggerate, right, now make a tall claim of something that we did not do, we know that, you know, the Spirit of God immediately, you know, so we can present it in a way that is attractive, that communicates what was done, but without any exaggeration, without any, you know, misrepresentation of facts, that's, that's fine, I think that's, that's, that definitely needs to be done, yeah, so if the boss is pushing for something, a misrepresentation of facts, just for the sake of, you know, pleasing the client, or just for the sake of getting, then we know it's a, it's a tough thing, right, and that's a call that you need to take to say no this far and no more, right, and it happens, it's a, it's a struggling, it's a, it happens when the boss does not understand, and even in terms of, you know, like a, let's say it's a sales oriented job, then the boss might say, okay, it's okay, just, you know, just tell something and sell it, it's the end of the month, today's the 31st, we have to, you know, close the month on a good note and sell something, I mean, tell something and sell it, right, but you need to hold your ground and say, okay, I will sell what this is, I'm not going to make a wrong commitment to the client and do it, yeah. Sure, thank you, thank you, Mr. Yeah, okay, so we need to be good followers, we need to, you know, obey, but when we say obey, we are saying again, you know, it has to be, you know, we have to be true to ourselves, we have to be people of integrity, you know, especially in a setting which is, which is not really well conducive, right, let's say Daniel lived in a court, the people are all, you know, all kinds of people, they are all in witchcraft and, and he was actually made a leader over them, so, you know, so that's, I wonder how he did it, you know, that's something, that's a conversation I really want to have with Daniel, how did you survive it today in such a setting, you know, Nebuchadnezzar's court, these kind of people and all kinds of things happening, how did you hold fast to your testimony, how did you continue on, you know, what made you really go to work every day, right, so, well, Daniel did it, it's possible, we just need to, it's not easy, right, okay, so to be good followers and to be good nurturers, so that's an important thing, that's what we are looking at, right, so to be people who will nurture others, okay, so to be able to raise up other leaders, to be able to nurture others, to be able to see the good in people, to be able to see the potential in people, okay, so not to look down on people, okay, but to esteem them highly, okay, because they're not finished products yet, as much as we are not finished products, we are all works in progress, so they are also works in progress, people whom God has interested us to lead, so to be able to nurture, okay, so the word, I mean, we look at the word nurture, the picture that comes as that of a mother, as that of a father, to feed, to make sure, to protect, right, to encourage, not just physically, but also emotionally, right, and spiritually, so to be good nurturers, to be able to do that, it's not to pamper, it's not to say yes to everything, but a person who nurtures does it, speaks the truth in love, and to love unconditionally, at the same time, being firm, okay, God loves us unconditionally, but he calls out, if things are not right, he would call out with the intention of for our own good, his calling out is for our own good, his correcting us is for our own good, that we don't destroy ourselves, so with that heart, right, with the father's heart, we need to nurture others, right, and so do they have that capacity, you know, if they see someone who is, who maybe is not as skilled as they are, you know, are they helping them, are they withholding information, do they, so that they look good, and the others look bad, right, these are small signals that we can pick up, you know, are they putting them down, even in terms of humor and so on, are they lifting them up, lifting other people up, are they being helpful, you know, so then we can see that, oh yeah, these are, now we looked at 11 characteristics, now all these characteristics may not be full blown and, you know, in people, right, may not be very visible in people, but then, or it could be in a very raw state, right, but we cannot, as leaders we cannot, right, we can, it's going to take time, it can be very frustrating, right, it can be, it can really test our patience, and we might think like, you know, how many times, how many times have I corrected this person, how many times have I, you know, said the same thing over and over again, and yet, you know, this person has not got it, well, we look at our own lives, well, God had to, you know, God and the Lord does continue to be patient with us, so we extend that same patience to others as well, right, so that's the, yeah, that's the role of us as leaders to identify the potential, so then it becomes, you know, it becomes really interesting, you know, our role, maybe if you're a pastor, if you're called to, you know, pastor church, or maybe as a life group leader, maybe as a Bible study, you know, you're conducting a Bible study in a place, you know, as a life group leader, so it becomes, you know, you see your role not just as a person who is sharing something from the word, but also as, you know, identifying, praying, or laboring, co-laboring with God to identify, you know, the potential in people, to identify the gift and calling in people, and to nurture them in it, and to point them in it, right, I'm sure all of us have, you know, God has used different kinds of people to speak into our lives, right, right from the time we came to know him as Lord and Savior, the Lord is right from sharing the gospel, maybe, or maybe it was just, you know, you just read the tract or read the word and you believe whatever it is, God, you know, during our journey, God has used people to speak into our lives, to nudge us, to be signposts to us, to point us to, you know, back to the way when we kind of distracted and going away, God has used people, so we need to be such people as well, right, to others, right, and intentionally look out for potential leaders and entrust them with responsibilities, okay, so nurturing leaders, let's go into a bit of a, you know, somewhat detail of how do we nurture leaders, so we looked at the potential leaders, we looked at some of these qualities that people need to have, okay, so you identify those qualities, let's say someone has all these 11 qualities and more, and so we need to nurture them, right, and take them through multiple stages till they are able to function as leaders, right, and again, we're talking about spiritual leadership, we're talking about, and this can be applied, you know, across in a secular setting also, okay, but it's a lot more, I think, I mean, it can be a lot more brutal there, right, in a sense, people just, they, you know, look at people, of course, it's changing in the workplace also, the people that what they can give, as long as you can give, you're there, and then if you quiff not, then your, you know, your position is not there, so the value based on what you can give and not as you as a person, right, to a logic, saying it's that, but that is also changing in the workplace, right, okay, so as pastors leaders, you know, we are to nurture other leaders, and people go through different stages, okay, let's look at, you know, the initial stage, the first stage would be what we can call as a preparation stage, now we identify the people, and, you know, in the preparation stage, we are sharing the vision, okay, sharing the overall vision, the big picture, this is what we are about, okay, that needs to be shared in a formal setting, that needs to be shared, maybe in an informal setting, as a reminder, hey, remember, this is what we are about, right, this is what church is for, you know, this is what we are going after, so you reiterate, you share the vision, okay, and sharing also what we want done in a certain area of ministry, okay, and how to go about doing it, what do you, what do we need to do, okay, this is what we want to do, and this is how we go about it, okay, and we are also emphasizing commitment, character, you know, all these attributes that we see that we are expecting out of the leader, okay, so we kind of, so this could happen over a conversation, this could happen over a formal training or, you know, formal, it could be, it can happen parallel, even we are doing other tasks, you know, let's say, just going out to meet someone, okay, and then this person is also with you, and then we talk about this, just remind themselves, remind them about it, so, and then talk, hey, let's talk about your, you know, the area that you're serving, you know, are you looking at these things as you serve, as you're looking at these things, you know, what helps you, so in a casual conversation, but it can also be a very formal conversation saying, okay, why don't we meet and let's talk about this, okay, so you're meeting in a place, and they're very intentional, okay, this is what you're going to be talking about, and, you know, both are possible, right, so this is the preparation stage where you're re-trading, okay, this is a big picture, and it's very important, okay, we cannot assume that the person understands the tasks, right, we cannot assume that the person understands how to go about doing it, so some of the things that you're saying, you know, it could be, to your, you could be second guessing yourself, you know, maybe, you know, I'm being too detailed, I'm being too, you know, am I being, like, am I micromanaging things, right, just to share what needs to be done is not micromanaging, it's not interfering with that person's, you know, tasks or responsibility, right, you're setting the standard, you're sharing the big picture, and that sharing of that big picture is very important to set the context for why they are doing what they're doing, okay, that really sets the context, because with this in the background, I'm going to do this, right, in the sense that with this vision, I'm going to be doing this, so that is, or that always, you know, really fuels why I need to get up early in the morning, why I need to be there when no one else is there, why I need to come and clean the place, you know, this is the big picture, right, so you're setting the context for that, okay, so that's the preparation stage, so well, the preparation stage could, you don't know, we can't really put a time frame to it, right, but we only wish that it's quicker, right, so the person can go to that initial stage of stepping into that leadership role, so there's been a, let's say, a formal appointment, or that, you know, we're just saying, communicating to the others, saying that, okay, this person here will take care of this role, this person will take care of the ashring, okay, they're going to take care of ashring, and so initially, we are, again, we are being involved, as a leader, you are involved in, involved in what you're providing the guidance, you're showing them, okay, how it needs to be done, telling them about, okay, how often do you communicate with the team, certain things that ashring requires, rosters that need to be done, scheduling that needs to be done, finding our people's availability, you know, the best way to go about doing it and, you know, how to communicate, maybe with the team, you know, politely and, you know, courteously and so on, right, and so on, so giving that guidance, giving that training, and does it require any equipment, right, does it require any tools, okay, the tools can be, you know, something physical, that is required, you know, maybe there's a media team and then probably they need a laptop, they need a, what they're having is not working, maybe they need some cables that are not functioning, or things like that, right, what is the equipment that is required, and the training to use that equipment, so we facilitate that as well, we don't need to necessarily do it ourselves, but we facilitate that, right, the equipping and so, and also initially, you know, they may need some help in finding out, again, all that we are looking at, you know, we would be looking at in detail in church administration, right, so I'll just quickly move on after mentioning this, so also we need help in, they may be putting the team together, maybe, you know, growing the team, they would need help, and maybe people, you can suggest people because you've been there, and you can, maybe you're able to identify, and so on, so you help them, and then once the team is put together, well, things don't just automatically happen, there could be some challenges relating to each other, some personality challenges, and some challenges like people not showing up, people not, you know, people not communicating, etc., so help them through that, and guide them, guide the leader through that, and also maybe the leader might make some mistakes, right, leader might forget, so we are there to provide that correction, and just to remind them why we are doing what we're doing, like that's the initial stage, so the leader has actually stepped into that role, but we are also involved quite, involved regularly to provide all that is required, support, and encouragement, and correction, and so on, then there is a settling in-stage, you know, where the leader is doing well, you know, the leader is enjoying the work, the leader is doing well, making decisions, training people, the team is functioning well, and so that is a time to not be so heavily involved, right, so we can actually step back, and as they keep moving forward, and also during this time, we just don't completely, you know, disconnect, so that's the mistake some we can make, right, oh everything is going fine, let me just disconnect, you get feedback, you know, you get reports, see how things are, okay, how was it this Sunday, how did it go, is everything going on okay, or do we need any help, is everything fine, just getting some regular feedback, and providing some input, yeah, you know, I read this article and this was about, you know, volunteering, and how volunteers get burned out, and how to prevent that burn out, you know, so I'll just forward that article to you, why don't you take a look at it, right, so maybe that person requires certain things on, you know, teams, how to lead a team, how to communicate with the team, and so on, that's not their strong area maybe, or they need to grow, so you help them that, right, so this is a settling in stage where there is input, and you are taking feedback, but you're not so quite heavily involved, right, in the day to day or week to week, okay, then there is a growth stage, right, so the leader is actually growing the area of ministry or that team, you know, it's growing beyond where it was when you actually interested them as a leader, they're able to make a lot of progress, they're growing, and so here also our involvement is actually diminishing, you know, we are just not so involved now, just providing the vision and direction, the leader is able to make certain, you know, some good judgment calls, the leader is able to correct, the leader is able to train, equip, so, and, you know, of course, you're always available to take feedback, and also provide guidance, and maybe correction even, that does not change, right, and the next stage, we can say is a maturity stage, where the leader is raising up other leaders, there are leaders who are raising up within the team, other potential leaders, and this leader begins to raise up other leaders, the way you raised up this particular leader and interested them with that leadership role, this particular leader whom you raised up is able to raise up other leaders, so you know that, okay, that's a, you know, mature stage, or maturity stage of leadership, where they are delegating their responsibility to them and they're doing well, right, so we can actually take the leader to another level of leadership altogether, maybe a bigger role of leadership, maybe they can now take care of, you know, a bigger area, if it is, if it is there, right, a bigger area of leadership, or maybe a higher level of, maybe not just, you know, two, three areas of ministry, but then a higher level of, I think, in the same ministry, higher level of responsibility in the same, if it takes this, right, so we can do that, and the last stage would be transition, the sense where the leaders actually grown to all that can be done in that particular area of ministry, or area of responsibility, so the thing is to maybe, you know, the leaders have, the leaders whom he has developed, he or she has developed, are taking up, and they're doing things well, so maybe it's time to appoint another person to handle that, and, you know, and maybe this person can step into some other role altogether, because they are now functioning quite well as leaders, maybe they can mature with their maturity and experience and learning, they can handle a bigger area of ministry, a bigger area, or a different area of ministry altogether, right, so these are things, possibilities, right, and we see that, you know, this is a, you know, if done well, it is really a very satisfying, very fruitful thing to do, and some of this takes time, right, some of this, and we can't say, you know, we can't say that it will take 10 years, 15 years, you know, some people are very, very quick, some people are very committed and, you know, they are fast learners, and also growing rapidly, spiritually, spiritual maturity, and everything, so we can never put a time frame, but it's good to, it's good to, you know, be consistent and continue on, and see that, you know, things happen in this manner, right, okay, so any questions here? Any questions? Okay, so it's a very encouraging, satisfying role, you know, as a leader, okay, so for us to be able to raise up other leaders, now is it easy, no, will there be disappointments, probably, maybe somebody doesn't want to, doesn't, you know, or halfway through wants to quit, and you had high hopes for them, and maybe they, you know, they didn't want to follow through or for whatever reason, and you know, you see someone who has so much potential, but they keep tripping, but they keep making same mistakes, and they're not willing to go beyond that mistake, you know, that can be very frustrating for that person and for you also as a leader, is it possible, yes, no, that could happen, but we don't give up, right, we don't give up, see, now we can't push this on to people, okay, it has to come from them, right, whoever whom you want to develop as a leader, they should be willing, right, you cannot force it, we can facilitate, we can encourage, we can present, we can, you know, share these opportunities, right, but ultimately it has to come from the people themselves, right, we need to understand that, okay, so the next thing is that what develops leaders, we just go look at a few thoughts on what really develops leaders and how can we, you know, how can we, you know, do this, so we looked at these several stages, so when we create opportunities, like when we make space, okay, how do we set boundaries when we try to nurture someone, okay, so when we say boundaries, so can you just explain that, Divya, like boundaries? Yeah, I was trying to understand in terms of both the person who is leading as well as the person who is being led, like there can be, there can be personalities where people can push the other person too far or there can be personalities where the person who is being led can, you know, encroach the leader's boundary, right, yeah, so there is, there are boundaries to be set, I believe, that the personal, the personal choices or Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right, yeah, so when it comes to boundary between the natural and the spiritual, that also, you know, like, I think we would have learned this in kingdom building when we studied about kingdom builders, about Paul and Timothy and their nurturing relationship, so we, and also about the local church, we know that there are boundaries between the natural and the spiritual, you know, yes, we are in the family of God and so on, but, you know, there are these boundaries that we need to respect, right, so the thing is this, we always respect the free will of the person, right, we never force things, we can set expectations, we can definitely, you know, when it comes to certain, when it comes to doing a particular task, you know, there are expectations and there are standards, so those are some things that we can enforce and say, you know, this is how, you know, we need to meet the standards, this is the expectation, this is how it needs to be done, right, but for a person who, let's say, when something like this, you know, when you're nurturing someone into a leadership position and then, well, the person is just not willing, I just doesn't want, then we cannot step in, we cannot overstep our boundaries and force, okay, we can be firm, we can suggest, but we cannot force ourselves. At the same time, as, like you said, as a person who's being nurtured, okay, I need to respect the time, the, you know, the privacy, the preferences of the person who is, who's the leader, who's nurturing me as well, okay, maybe the leader would say, okay, this is all the time that I have, we can, of course, ask, we can request, but we need to respect the time and the preferences of the leader. So, yeah, it works both ways. I think what would be helpful is if we can actually read that building people by the spirit, right, and we can look at that section in the book, King the Builders, that will be really helpful to put these boundaries. Like, the Bible also warns us, you know, Paul warns about people who are busy bodies, who show up in people's homes and, you know, so those are certain things to be avoid, that we need to avoid in our zeal to nurture others. We should not make those mistakes, right, in our zeal to say, okay, this person, oh, wow, this is such a wonderful opportunity. Let me just go all out and do it. We should not really force ourselves into these kind of in these kind of situations, right? So we need to be careful. Yeah. So we create, yeah, yeah, thanks. So we create, yeah, one more question. No, no, please go ahead faster. I didn't want to interrupt. Yeah. Right, right. Okay. So when we create opportunities, we actually develop leaders, okay, create opportunities in the sense, when we make some space, when we, let's say, we suddenly realize here that this is a role this person can do. This is a task this person can, you know, actually carry out. And there is space. It's not like you're just, you know, creating something just for that person to develop. No, but actually, this particular task helps the organization grow or helps the church, helps the ministry. You know, this particular task, it helps, it actually enhances the whole thing, right? Maybe we want to have a greater, you know, right at the, at the entrance when people walk in, we, we know that people walk in and then you assure them to their seats, whatever, but then maybe this, this person's personality is so much that, you know, so warm and friendly and it'll really help if the person is there outside the door and welcoming people, right? So you create a role and you develop leaders. They're just a small example, but, you know, in, we can look into whatever, you know, the ministry role is the ministry function is and then see, you know, is there a role for this person so that this person can grow? Okay. Okay, so we'll stop here. And then, yeah, we'll continue in our next class, just check the stream. After the class, I'll upload that list as well, right, to the list. Okay. Thank you. God bless. Thank you, Pastor. Thanks. See you in the night. Thank you, Pastor.