 Good morning. I'm Ali Zakri alias from the Iklif leadership and governance center today with us in the leaders room We have a very special individual and guests who needs little to no introduction In 1999 she and a group of like fellow individuals set up Mercy Malaysia And this was after she had observed the atrocities committed in the Kosovo war She has won many numerous awards Such as the inaugural East Asian women's peace award from the Philippines the Gandhi kink and Ikea award from the USA and Recently the recipient of the first Bahrain I say what for service to humanity? We welcome today. Thank you, Dr. Jamila Mahmood. Thank you. Good morning and welcome Thanks for our first question It was reported that the Kosovo war triggered your first realization of epiphany of humanitarian and medical aid in crisis Can you share with us if the event was a sudden jolt from the blue that you experienced? Or was it something that you had always felt and that the event was simply the tipping point in your realization? Well, I think it was the tipping point ever since I joined the medical career or entered medical school It was always, you know about the greater good of medicine Along the way, you know, you get caught up with the paper chase you know your career in Has to be linear or up growing and it has to be following a certain pattern Otherwise you fall back on your promotions. So, you know, you don't get to realize There are no incentives for doing this I think the Kosovo was a time when I was already in private practice. I was no longer Dependent on anyone else except myself to raise my own salary And I thought that was right. But, you know, it was a time of real Searching for me as well and my son Who was five at the time? I was complaining to him watching television and saying, you know, there was war and all these people suffering You had to be very grateful and of course he turned around looked at me and says well, you're a doctor Why aren't you doing anything about it? And that's you know, that kind of said Yeah, that's it. That was the last trigger that I needed and so was there a feeling of like this was the right Decision to make or you know, you make a decision You're never really sure whether it's the right decision But that's about you know decision-making you have to make a decision. I think the longer you put it off Yes, you you never get the way you want to be and you just keep complaining. Yes That's right. Just moving on a bit more. What were the influences that helped shape you into becoming a humanitarian and also a leader as such? well First of all, I think it's my family background I come from a very diverse family a multi multi racial a lot of mixed marriages My own parents were of different ethnicity and I was very troubled by What I was seeing in Malaysia and outside Malaysia about how people couldn't use diversity as a strength and And how ethnic tensions had led to war and so forth and Humanitarianism is about independence impartiality and neutrality And I think that's the only platform one can bring people to do good on a very very clear Goal that it's about serving needs of people irrespective of their race religion culture creed and You know and I think you know that was Really the main impetus of a family growing up diverse also a very charitable family and a school background in Asunta Where you know, we were always told that you know educate your hearts your minds will follow And as you know with missionary schools is always about helping other people charity drives and so forth It was really ingrained into me even from a very young age So do you think to be a humanitarian is it nature or nurture? I think first of all the whole concept of humanitarianism is not like some angelic person trying to do this I think I like to dispel that kind of notion as I said humanitarianism is a professional Decision about how you work with people affected by crisis whether it's disasters or conflict or whatever but You know its leadership is required in humanitarianism just as it's required in the business sector The only difference is this your clients in the private sector have power Because they can choose whether to come to you or not in the humanitarian sector You're dealing with clients that have less power than you that the good Humanitarian will make sure that the client who is the affected population is able to exert its power And the and that the humanitarian is able to give away power to make sure that Communities will actually take leadership in what they need. I think that's a good humanitarian Unfortunately, it's lacking. Yes, a lot of humanitarian's feel they can just come in on their, you know High horses and try and tell and impose what they think is required rather than the other way round Yeah, and do you think that you being a humanitarian is only confined in the areas of like an NGO or could we actually see this Values of humanitarianism is even in corporate world in the corporate sector itself. Well because the humanitarian principles are embedded in Impatiality independence and neutrality I guess you know if you are able to you know offer assistance or support in a way that that Holds on to these critical values and principles then you know anyone can actually do it I mean I was a medical doctor. I wasn't trained to be a humanitarian I have people in you know who came along with me who were teachers were lawyers were engineers they weren't trained to be humanitarians, but they held on to those principles and Of course the the bottom line is you have to have a population who are affected by crisis You can do voluntary work and you know good deeds in and around communities But if the communities don't have the power and balance and the and the crisis that they are in then It doesn't become a matter. It's just because volunteerism and do good, right, but it's also very important. Yes Yes, you mentioned about you know people from diverse backgrounds actually coming to you and and you are also leading them into into this Areas, which is sometimes quite personally dangerous. Oh, so how would you describe the leadership style in? Managing a whole group of volunteers, you know people who who have different backgrounds different trainings different objectives Maybe I'm not sure so would it be something very different from a typical leadership situation? Well, I think what I did was First of all looked at everyone as being able to offer something Yeah, and the best thing to do is to listen and observe and figure out what do they best contribute We cannot expect to have a cut cookie cutter more to say everyone must be able to do this Yes, has to be able to perform in this way. I mean I have skills as a doctor I have skills as maybe a leadership skill to bring people together good people together But I don't know how to design Townships or to build buildings or to set up educational programs. So I use the strength that is within the team So I guess it's about respect, which is very important Looking at everyone is equal that doctors are no better than you know lawyers or teachers or housewives Even who came to join us and to then to figure out where you extract the best out of each And then you know bringing people towards a common goal I think that's very very very important to keep focus on bringing people towards a common goal. All right In fact, there's common goal in most organizations or corporations There is that five-year plan three a plan ten-year plan and it's very definable in terms of what organization wants to achieve In your case, please correct me if I'm wrong. It's about addressing the ills of the world Mm-hmm How do you motivate yourself keep yourself going keep your team going? Yeah, knowing that this might actually be a never-ending task in that sense You know you take one thing at a time But the important thing is when I was in the leadership of Western Malaysia, for example, I made sure that we Could fulfilled all the criteria of any international Ben benchmark of good standards in humanitarianism Therefore, you know taking our organization through certification for humanitarian accountability You know making sure that there is a quality management system on board Which means that it's about not just a one-off thing. It was also about learning and improving Because I think that culture is very important to not think that what you do today is relevant next year It may change situations change. It's about living in the moment It's not just living in the moment, but making sure that at least you meet You make sure you meet all the criteria that's required the benchmarks that are set and how you perform Yes, and try to excel that yes, and then you know also making being honest to yourself to say that what didn't work Didn't work and therefore don't try to repeat that in another setting and also being very contextual because Different populations different governments all behave differently So you can't just go into a country and think that you're going to change the world You can't it's about partnership It's about making sure that everybody else does their part so that the end result is going to be something very positive Actually, I'm quite intrigued to also find out from you What is what was your thoughts about making a decision to go on a global platform as opposed to Hey, you know what there's so many things to do even on the local front Why not do the local front first and build your way out as opposed to let's go and You know go on the global platform. How can you share with us? Well, then again, it comes to my first You know the differentiation between humanitarianism and doing good and doing charity Humanitarianism shouldn't be about charity. It's about rights. It's about making sure that people have a right to live with dignity I saw Malaysia growing and developing and you know the benchmarks for our growth were very much dependent on our You know income per capita. It was very materialistic financial goals And you know there was some limb development goals obviously about poverty eradication. It's really important But I felt one thing that was missing was You know, how do we make sure Malaysians look at development at development as also people being developed to have compassion To be able to look at themselves as being leaders for other people as well So why can't Malaysia and I was really really tired of turning on the television and every time you look at a crisis There was always a Western face. There was no Asian There was no, you know, nobody from the global south so to speak or non-westerns And here we are saying that we are very caring and you know all our religions expound being good and virtuous and being charitable Where are we? We are invisible. So I wanted so badly to create this platform one for nation-building as well to bring all the different popular, you know parts of Malaysia together on a common platform of doing good and then you know making a mark internationally to say We can do it in our own way as well We don't need to bring entirely Western values into humanitarianism, you know, Malaysia is so diverse We've been able to live with each other because it's all about tolerance giving taking trying to understand each other's cultures And I think that was really missing in the whole humanitarian arena people would come in and Impose their own cultures and their values on other people. So, you know, why can't we? I mean, why can't I you know, I felt that why can't a position development in Malaysia is about doing things beyond our shores? And I was very determined to do that. What sustained you? I mean, you know, you are going you you're not even starting from ground ground. You're going from ground zero to ground 10 And and I'm sure you must have faced a lot of challenges There's sure impossibility at that point of time of setting something up. What? What kept you going? What kept on saying? No, I'm going to to achieve it. Well, I think I Guess in some ways you need to really be clear why you want to do it So the conviction was very important internally for me I guess I had a very strong faith and I felt that You know, this is what I need to do as a good person This is part and parcel of my faith to help others that are You know in in a more worse off position than me and to be able to also demonstrate that My faith doesn't discriminate between races and religions The third thing I guess was also The fact that you can try and you can fail Or not try and always feel that you never tried So I chose to try and if I fail then it's one up for experience. I'll know what to do next But sitting back and feeling that I needed to do something and not doing anything I think would have made me even more, you know Worst of person because I had all that energy and that passion. I needed to try it out And of course when I tried it out, I realized that gosh We brought a completely different way of doing things compared to other humanitarian organizations in the West and Was the mere satisfaction of seeing people look at us and saying you're from Malaysia We all admire Malaysia, you know, we want to learn from Malaysians You are the model country for us, you know people don't realize this I think Malaysians don't realize how much Malaysia is respected in the global south and you know then You can build relationships so easily and you see change and I think that motivated me It wasn't about having, you know, the highest funds in the organization compared to other You could never compete with the big organizations of the world, but we made more difference I guess an impact to people's lives By being who we were Did you ever think that you would fail? Of course, you always think that you might fail, but you know failure is not a bad thing Failure, you know comes with these lessons as well and these learnings and I and I think that people who are afraid to fail Can never be real leaders Absolutely, absolutely Don't see if I can just talk about sacrifice Did you think about that because you knew you were going you were going to be a world beater in that sense But that would also require a price to be paid. How did you manage to? To come to terms or handle it or manage manage the sacrifices that you would have to make You know the biggest sacrifice I made was really time with my family Yes, that's a bigger sacrifice and the second biggest sacrifice was, you know, I gave up my very lucrative medical career Yes, you know, many people don't realize this that entire time I was in Massimilasia. I didn't take a single cent of salary I didn't feel it was right because I established the organization and I just didn't want any perceptions that you know I established it to raise money for myself because I could have done that in my practice So there's two big sacrifices that I had to make but I think the biggest one obviously was time with my family and You know, that's hard, you know, and it required a lot of conversations within the family and you know, I had young children then But my kids, you know, kind of understand I think they're very proud of me, you know, my full family Probably my number one supporters, you know, every time I feel oh, this is too much I can't do this anymore. You know, they will be the ones to say come on You have to do it. You can do it. We can't you can do it You know go ahead and we'll give you all the support And I think that's that's been a great strength for me having support, you know, from my closest people around me, my family, my children And you know and realizing that in life, you know, life is just so unpredictable. Yes, you can be Everything can be stashed away for you in from you in a moment, but you know, if you can Negotiate all the difficulties and have those difficult conversations and come to a common understanding that, you know Here's what I'm good at and do you think that's a good thing for me to do and get the complete support? Then I think, you know, just go go for it Yeah, true through one of the videos that we were watching Well when I was watching and three and you had mentioned that your mother had mentioned to you that you were different Did you ever feel that you were different or you were destined to be a leader or it has a sense of destiny to it from from from young You know, I like leading. I wouldn't lie about it when I was in school I was always the president of something or you know secretary of another organization I always liked leadership rules because I felt you know, I've I really like Bringing people together and you know just Sleeding I like communicating I like to see things being shaped and Success coming out of it. So I guess in many ways, you know, I really liked being a leader In the family, I'm actually the youngest of all my siblings. We have a very large family and My father died very young Or rather my father died when I was very young and my mother had to go to work and to bring us all up and And she had to she gave me all sorts of different tasks Like I was responsible to make sure that some of the family members of my father in Singapore had No school books and school shoes and stuff You know, and I was 14 years old and I couldn't understand why she was doing this I guess you know mothers always know about their children and you know, what what they like and She must have observed me to be different from everybody else and I think she shaped me as well Helped me, you know become what I am today and she was a leader herself You know, she was an entrepreneur and she was you know, very very hard-working And you know, she always told us nothing comes easy. Everything is with hard work So, you know, I guess the shot of it is yes, I think You know my leadership Mold was created from young, you know from from home For my teenage years and then school in university. It was always trying to lead something or be a part of a leadership movement Yes, and and therefore it kind of you know, I guess it comes naturally to me But I also believe you can create leaders I think, you know in my time for example in Malaysia, I've always made sure that some of the younger ones So, you know people work with me would go out become leaders themselves and and try to push that and you know And leadership requires mentorship and sponsorships So I'm very lucky because I have a group of mentors who really care about me who are willing to To tell me what I may not want to hear and I surround myself with these people I don't surround myself with people who will tell me how good I am You know, you can get that easily but it's much more difficult to get real friends who actually tell you when you're not doing so well Why you're not doing so well or to tell you when they think you might be behaving, you know Not the right way or whatever and and and the other group of course is sponsorships So to find people who really believe in your course and give you a push and and you know I was very fortunate in my life that I've always been able to find those people and You know and now you know trying to also do the same with the younger generation What's the qualities to be a sponsor in that sense, you know Because nowadays it's not that that easy to find somebody who actually gels also with you and also sometimes I think there are leaders out there who actually want to to become sponsors and want to become mentors What's the secret and ingredient to being a successful mentor or sponsor? You have to really be sincere. It's timely. It takes a lot of time to be a mentor You know, it's it's about putting aside time to certain people to see I'm going to mentor these people And I'm gonna make sure I spend X amount of hours a month to sit down and just listen or whatever Mentorship doesn't mean, you know, you you give them connections. No It's about really giving time for them themselves to develop as as human beings as leaders And in sponsorship is what really believing in the cause and and fighting for you know For the person who you're trying to sponsor to be moved up or to to be given that opportunity to do something Yes, yeah, and how did you do it then? I mean during the time we're especially during my simulation where I'm sure crisis is what happening all the time And you're also running an organization and you're raising funds and you yourself are getting involved on the ground How do you manage to find the time to do the sponsorship and mentorship? You can do it, you know while I'm on the ground when I go to the field a lot I brought young people out and I spent time with them. They looked at me, you know if they slept on In the tent on the floor I slept in the tent on the floor with them and you know leadership has also got to be about example and walking the talk And then, you know, just spending time to talk, you know, I talk a lot to my younger, you know volunteers and so forth and listen to them I give them advice You know, I sometimes, you know, will tell them that this is not the right thing to do Maybe you can try something else and then, you know Making the time, I don't know how to I guess because I don't sleep that much So therefore I have a lot of time to to catch up with their emails or the phone calls but, you know, it's it's You know, that's why I built this platform. It wasn't about me I was building a platform for other people to do good and to take on the leadership when the time comes and and How do you identify for you in your in your sense for succession planning in terms to to take on your Mental, what are the qualities that you look for? Well, I I think it's very hard so session planning I must say is probably the hardest thing to do because You cannot find someone who's exactly like you. Yes, and you shouldn't yes because good organizations become better when you get leadership to transform it And to take it to a different level For me, I knew the risk of me staying too long in Muslim Malaysia was that people could no longer Put Muslim Malaysia me apart. It would always always be synonymous And at the point that I was approaching my 10th year, I Realized that it was more critical for me to do that and I then tested out, you know, a couple of people and you know Allow them to take I took a spethical leave so that they will actually run the organization And then, you know make the decision that it has to be at a very critical point 10th year. That's when you leave, you know and It's hard when you found it something And it's like your child and you're not going to give it away to someone else to take care of it Yes, and I you know the decision then that's when I left I left I don't hold any link to the organization at all So that you know if the organization wants to change the way it works or what it wants to focus on I Shouldn't be the one to be a hurdle or barrier to that change. Yes. So, you know, I Guess it's it's about a commitment to change to succession holding yourself True to that commitment for succession and then when the time comes to walk away So, but how do you resist it from I'm sure you read about it in these papers and I'm sure sometimes it must flash through your mind I would have done it differently. Yeah, how how how do you manage yourself in those sort of situations? You just try not to Put your head into the organization's matters I stay away from from the organization as much as I can If people ask me I direct them to the new leadership and you know if I want to know anything I just go on the website and have a look But I don't I don't do anything But I think something very important that I want to share is that when the 10th year was coming You know, I pray it really hard. I said, you know, this is the right thing to do. Give me a sign You know, like is this organization going to just be destroyed and then therefore my platform is no more there And then some very strange things happened I was in the in the meeting in Geneva and I was standing in front of of the United Nations building and just watching, you know, the Palais and A bunch of women came up to me and it was Sudanese and they saw me and said Are you Malaysian? Yes, you know, and I said, oh, you're Sudanese. Yeah, I'm sort of talking and She said, well, do you know this organization called Mercy Malaysia and I thought it was a very bizarre question So I said, yes, you know why and she said, well, I'm from Darfur and I said, well, I know Darfur I used to work there and she said, oh, well the Mercy Malaysia came and they built this, you know Women's Health Center and trained the staff there so that women now have a place safe place to give birth And that was actually my idea and I, you know, let the that decision And then she looked at me and she says, but do you know Dr. Jamila and I was like, yes, and I said why, you know, and she said, well, here's my card please tell her that the women in Darfur will wait for her to come and You know that women don't have to die in childbirth anymore And you know, I just, you know, I gave her my card. She went hysterical I ran away and just broke down and cried because I thought, you know How many times in your life do you get unsolicited feedbacks and really, you know verification for what you thought was a decision you made and the work that you do and And that wasn't the first thing that happened three things happen in a row three Completely different countries verified the work that I did and you know after the third one I just wrote my resignation letter and said goodbye everyone. You know, I'm leaving I gave them two months notice and took the first job offered to me as far away from Malaysia as possible and left Yeah That's she's easy to look back and look at all the accomplishments. Yeah, but when a person is going through the process There's a lot of pain involved. I think in your case. It's literal also. Yeah, you were shot in the hip You you just you didn't go for an operation. All you did was you just closed up the wound You continued working for five days So yeah more and you only got the surgery when you came back to Malaysia Yeah, now in most normal people's case, they would be sobbing on the floor not being able to do anything and How would how what what powered you through those periods of pain and just being able to get your objective done? Believe me. I sobbed. I didn't sob for myself. I sobbed for my colleague was also injured and I sobbed for my driver who was killed and And you know, I felt so angry with myself so upset and I blame myself really that you know Was it my wrong decision? You know work through the whole security protocol in my head the entire time and realize we didn't make a mistake It was just one of those things that happens, you know The UN was stormed in Somalia two days ago and they lost so many staff people just came in and shot them You know and these things happen. These are the risks with humanitarianism But you know that the bullet wound to be very honest I didn't even notice I had been hit until someone pointed to me that I was bleeding and you know I saw this hole in my jacket and then I realized oh, you know, there's a problem here and there were no doctors at that time where I went to this hospital and You know, they truly got someone to hold my pants down where I started to try to close this hole and You know and then of course I felt pain after that, you know the shock and everything But I was in this hospital We moved deeper into a troubled area because we needed to get my friend to a hospital They had a blood bank and an operating theater and I needed to take him to theater and You know the strangest things happened again that as I was resting and thinking, you know Feeling a little bit sorry for myself. You know, how do I get myself to this situation? The door knocked and you know nurse comes in and says, you know, we have a woman in labor and she's She's very anemic and she requires a caesarean section She's had two previous caesareans and you're the most experienced doctor in this hospital right now and so I had to go into theater and you know, literally help get this baby delivered and At the end of it I and I again felt very sad because I was a lot of pain and I said, you know I'll come and see her in six hours to see how she's doing and I walked back to the room, you know, and she was sitting up in bed and I thought This can't be the same woman that I operated and they say yes And I said to her you're crazy. You just had major surgery six hours ago Why are you sitting up in bed folding her clothes and she said I want to go home because If the bombs dropped tonight on my family and my children, I want to be there And I thought, you know what my pain is nothing. I know what it's like to have major surgery And I looked at her and I said, you know, here's a woman of courage I'm not courageous. I just you know and part and parcel of the whole equation of why I'm there You know, there must be a reason why I got Shot and landed in that hospital to do surgery for this woman and for this woman to reaffirm to me that you know What it does come with risks? Yes And you know, so I gave her all my painkillers and I thought I'll never complain again And I continued working for the next five days and you know when the bullet gets into you It's terrible the speed that a bullet gets into you the heat generated around it It's remains terrible until you know, it hits something nasty and I was very lucky because I Managed to keep it stabilized and then had the surgery back. Yeah That's what you mentioned about risk and in mostly this Daily lives, it's about taking risks. Yeah How do you go about? Taking that decision because the decisions that you make you made during that time especially Literally could it involve lives too? Yeah, what would the process did you go through? It's calculated risk? There are for example in security. There are Ways that you calculate risk in humanitarian work. Yes, there's security levels and And then you communicate, you know, I communicated with everyone from the American command control To, you know, some of the local leaders that we were coming in I've worked in many many difficult areas and and therefore making that you know collective calculated risk and then Adjusting it as and when you see required, you know when we were there initially it was fine we were working in the hospital and The the person who took us to the next hospital was saying, you know I do this trip three times a day and we cleared the security and everything we went She was so happen that you know There was a big small clash in the villages and those crossfire when we were passing through with the ambulance So, you know, it's making calculated risks But you know now that that happened what happened was and when we return was we escalate that our security level training so that we would be more stringent in how we use, you know security assessments and I also built in, you know thinking about how do you use community risk mechanisms as well and You know making communities more aware of our presence so that they would be the ones protecting us as well Yes, so, you know risk cannot be just out of the blue risk management It's about really making conscious decisions and you have to be well informed to make those consciousness So it's gathering of information knowledge, you know, and and the tools are required to make those decisions And how do you manage yourself when things go when things go wrong? So how do you do you beat? You know, some people beat themselves over their heads and how do you manage? I think I do a little bit of each I beat myself on the head for a little while I know and then I I try to rationalize and I take time out just kind of really reflect and think and pray whatever to to really get, you know Really grounded into myself and then you know and then I come out of it and say, okay, you know That's it. We move forward, you know all the time I think I'm an incurable optimist. This is the problem I always feel that everything happens for a reason good or bad And it's going to make me become a better person You know with every experience it makes me a better leader after every experience. So You know, I take a very positive approach to whether I've made a mistake or whether You know, I've done something really great and you know a mistake is not a mistake to be committed twice, right? I mean, they always say an error Doesn't become a mistake. So you keep repeating it. So I hope I committed more errors than mistakes, you know Thanks for I have to ask you this question as a woman has your gender ever been a A barrier to getting your work done or has it actually been an impetus for you to get your work done? My gender has been one of the strongest reasons why I think I've succeeded Um, I am a woman. I'm not ashamed of it and I'm I use my feminism and in a way that's very positive I think that you know people always I have issues with women who try to be like men Whereas I use, you know, all my feminine feminine values As a woman who you know, my nature is caring who's gentle and who's able to communicate And and I use that and now in the situations that I work There are many countries I go to that will not allow men access to women I get access to these women when I get access to these women I get to understand how they live how they function as family units. I get into their homes And I get a better perspective You know with a a better cultural lens And a better gender understanding And that helps me actually, you know program Things in a way that will be much more culturally acceptable And I get to also be there have the case, you know, because I I bring their voice to the forefront So, you know, I really think women must take their Feminity as a real plus And not trying to be like men. We're not we can never be the same We're very different, you know, genetically and in the way we think in the way we're wired up and so forth That's really you have two sons. I have two sons If you were to have a daughter, what advice would you actually give her? I would advise her the same advice that I give my two sons, whatever you do in life Success can never be measured only in dollars and cents. It's about what impact have you left, you know in the world when you leave How would you like to be remembered by? So I would tell her to chase her dreams no matter what it was Whether society looked at it as something strange or different And and to have confidence Yeah, and would that advice be the same for our leaders in the corporate world or in any other organization? Yes, I think Especially corporate leaders. They have so much opportunity to do more good than me You know, a lot of the things that the corporations do can really change lives I don't believe That knives are changed because people come into a system that's certainly not how I work It's always about making communities stronger than when we found them to make sure they find the solutions And it always has In the end to deal with being able to be able to stand on their own feet and that requires earning money and you know livelihoods and so forth now The corporations have a lot of Power to do that And what I would like corporate leaders to do is again to think about how would you like to be remembered? What have you left as a mark in the world when you're gone? country final question for you You have achieved so much already What's next for you and what next can we expect from you? Well, I always feel now in this phase of my life. It's a time for me to play a different role um, I am doing a lot of Work sitting on many international boards trying to influence large organizations big donors on how they can best, you know, do their work And really looking at governance as a very important issue because I take that very seriously And also I think My big dream, which I hope I can realize especially with the price that I've just got Is to set up a center that will look at You know new models on how we look at humanitarianism How do we look at conflict resolution and peace building? And I think you know that will be you know the next phase in my life And I think I I want to play a greater role now in developing new leaders In this sector. I also want to play a role in Supporting governments and leaders in how they can make better decisions and how they can engage with other actors especially in conflict and peace and you know resolution and At some point in my life, I need to start writing my memoirs, you know and my stories because I think you know, I don't think that I'm a great person. I really don't I think I'm just a normal Ordinary human being there's been the given the opportunity to do some very extraordinary things But along with that comes a lot of stories some very funny and some you know very sad And I think I would like to leave those behind, you know for my children for the next generation that You know, they need to also tell their own stories at some point Thank you very much country for sharing with us your experiences and very inspiring stories This is aliza kri alias and I'm signing off from the leaders room