 We're set to go. I'm gonna call this meeting to order. This is a reconvene meeting, a continuation of a meeting, a best-won realty for the experience of the Subaru dealership. We have, there's members of the board here Tonight, Pauli Ribarty. My right, I'm Bob Warnick. Tour Nelson is with us as is John Friedrich. And I expect Carla to join us shortly. We also have our recording secretary, Kristi Flynn, and our zone administrator, Tom Badowski. If you would introduce your team, I'd appreciate that. Sure thing. Dave Barbingham, I'm the applicant from Twin City Subaru. Joseph Green is our architect. Ryan Leifert from HP Cummings, our contractor. And I've heard Jose's name but I don't see him. Jose Oliver is also from Twin City Subaru. He's our general manager there. I'm having some technology difficulties. I'm trying to do it from my phone. Your audio is very good. Well, where we are in this meeting at this point in time. Tom, do you want to say anything? No, I'm good. I'm good. Where we are at this point in time is we reconvene the meeting, we've received... Carla's coming. Carla's joining us. We're waiting for Carla. I'm here! Yay! Carla? There are still a few difficulties here at home. Okay. So where we are is we held our first hearing. We issued some preliminary information or guidance, I should say, to the applicant concerns that the board had as possible talking points going forward. And the applicant has asked to discuss tonight to discuss those concerns. Notably, I'm making reference to a memorandum as days of September 9th, which summarized some of our thoughts and concerns, our being the board. So I guess we'll turn it over to the applicant. Tell us where we are. Thank you again for having us and the work that you do on behalf of the town. Thinking about this application, I can appreciate that this is the first one through the door, so to speak, on the new town district zoning district, and that you want to be careful to get it right. And, you know, our goal is to expand our business. So I think we can find a way where I hope we can meet both of our needs and go forward. If it's okay, I'd kind of like to just go through the memorandum piece by piece and try to address that. So on the procedural side, there was a highlighted letter A, and this is not whether, you know, stating that the board had not considered conditional use. So I assume that the issue might be that letter A, the construction of more than 16,000 square feet of commercial or industrial space. Is that the, would be the main concern? Yeah, that's the trigger. So I guess we look at this and say we are not constructing more than 16,000 square feet. We're constructing approximately 13,000 square feet, and therefore had felt that was not applicable in this case. And I guess is there some reason why this might apply if it's under that threshold? The building now is collectively more than 13,000 square feet. Right, but it doesn't say the finished product. It says if the application is for the construction of more than 16,000 square feet. So it's where I guess we had just glossed right over that because it didn't seem to apply for us. Do you see a problem with meeting the conditional use criteria? No, of the three, they're not all in there. Oh, okay. It's already, I mean, I think it was addressed in our application. And this, so this was, looked like it was the, perhaps a, you know, a possible thing that had to be considered in that. There's site plan review, there's conditional use review. So I think what this board is asking is that in addition to your site plan review that you've submitted, that you do the conditional use review as well. And I believe that was addressed in the, what was submitted because it's, okay. It was, but I don't, I don't, I don't see it as, I don't think it's a problem. Okay. Okay. I think it's just a. It was a question is what the way we read this. Something I think we just need to go. Okay. The regulatory. Yeah. Okay. Well, in fact, if I might, this is Joe Green, I guess the first question is whether or not this justifies conditional use. That's the primary question. And the criteria that we're talking about specifically says the construction of 16,000 square feet. It doesn't clarify that it results in a commute, commutative or cumulative square footage. Or it doesn't speak to renovations or expansions or continuances of construction. It says simply the construction of. So our position is that we are constructing far less than 16,000 square feet. So the conditional use criteria doesn't apply. Period. We're in a permitted use. In the TCS district. With the auto sales and service. And that's our position. So there's no need to even pursue conditional use. Because we're not in that criteria. I think. I think that's there's room for interpretation on that one. Okay. I didn't see it as an issue for you. Except for somebody coming back at a later date. And saying you didn't want to hear. You didn't, you didn't handle the meeting correctly. Okay. And appealing on the grounds that it was procedurally in error. What are you after? That's under the, that's under the assumption that we're interpreting that one line as being applicable to this project. So I think the question that we have is. How do we get to that determination? Whether or not that line is actually applicable. I don't see any procedural issues for the board down the road. If somebody says, why didn't you proceed with conditional use? If we can look them in the straight face and say, well, because they're not constructing more than 16,000 square feet. That presumes that there's no changes being made to the rest of the structure. Well, actually, if we read that sentence word for word, it doesn't make that presumption. And unfortunately in the definitions, there's no clarification as to how that is interpreted. It's simply one sentence that says the construction of 16,000 square feet. So I'm suggesting that this board's interpretation, which I think is the interpretation that matters in the, in the review of applications, is that a collective building over 16,000 square feet requires conditional use. And I would appreciate that if your team would like to be recognized and talk, that they raise a hand, be recognized by the chair, instead of just interrupting the procedure. It is important that we be recognized by the chair, just because we can't see each other. I'm having trouble picking up who's up there. My apologies. I'm happy to raise my hand in the future, as obviously these proceedings are a little tough when we're doing them, kind of split virtual, whatever. So my apologies, but I guess I just, I just want to have a procedural conversation about how these bylaws are being applied. And if we say it's the board's interpretation, then I guess I would love to hear each board member tell me affirmatively that that's actually their interpretation. Well, that's not the way we'll be doing that. But we hear your argument. We'll take into consideration. So if what I heard is, you don't necessarily think it's an issue, but something you may have to consider. If it's okay, I'll move on to the substantive portion. And so on the, you know, there were really five sections here in a conversation with Tom. He said that, you know, sort of in the order of big picture of maybe not less important, but just in order of priority maybe to address these. So, you know, on the, I think a big thing here is this, on the access and circulation that the Berlin Mall Road will become a public road built to a town road standards, including travel lanes, et cetera. And as an applicant, we need to discuss how this might affect our application and address cost sharing in this development. You know, I guess my position is I would never presume to go improve somebody else's property. This is not our property. This is not, you know, we are not, we will not be a walking destination for anybody. That's not the nature of our business or our industry. And honestly, I don't see it as within the scope of what we would be looking to do as an applicant. On the other hand, you know, I consider myself a good neighbor and a good corporate citizen. And I am a general proponent of the town center succeeding. I'd like to see it go through. I think it will enhance the area. I think it will make Berlin more of a destination. And I think it's a, you know, a very positive thing to have happen. So what I would do is a, in that vein is say, as a, as a interested party in the area, when the road gets redeveloped, I would be willing to say, I will certainly make the improvements in front of my property as if it was my road frontage. And, you know, if that means on the west side of the road to put in a sidewalk, once that road is improved, I would be willing to do that and, you know, make that commitment. But there is no practical way to do that now. And I certainly can't undertake rebuilding that road as a part of this project. That doesn't seem at all reasonable to me. You are willing to commit to building a sidewalk on the west side of the road at a future date when you have access to the road and ownership is clear? I would. Provided I get an easement from the property owner, which I think was made evident in the first meeting hearing. So, again, you know, I do, it's not that, it's not that we have an objection to doing so, but it's, there's no practical way to do that at this time. And I say when the road will be rebuilt, I'm confident it will be. And, you know, that's a, that's a something I would be willing to do as just a good neighbor and a good corporate citizen, I guess, is the way. But I don't think that it's in the, should be in the scope of this application at all, frankly, because I own no road frontage. I don't have that. So, no way to safely add a sidewalk on the road as it currently exists. So, you know, that's kind of where it is on the section B of that talking about internal sidewalks. We can certainly make those, create designations and safe walkways and signage and provide a safe space for pedestrians to walk up to the mall, mall road that I think the same issue exists. It sort of be a sidewalk to know where in essence, because it ends up on a side of the road where there is no improvement. And I think if I were to walk up to Walmart for my business, I would go up the right side of my driveway, I guess cut across the curbs, you know, hop the curbs where the trucks go into behind the facilities. But there is not a safe space there. And I think ultimately the sidewalk across the street, I suppose we could do a crosswalk there and signage. Crosswalk across the road that goes around backside of the mall. So that's not a big deal. And that's not a big deal to us either. So I said if there's a reasonable way to do that, I'd be acceptable to us again, assuming the Berlin mall folks would give us an ease went to paint on the roads and put up a sign and that sort of thing. So our objections to these requirements are physical in nature, not philosophical. We don't own the property and we don't, there is no safe zone designated there to date. I would tell you that I could argue pretty effectively that you do have frontage on the road. Your property line does not go to the road, but your property goes up to the property that owns the road. If that same property were owned by the town tomorrow, you'd have road frontage. You'd have road frontage in fact on a private road. And I think that's an argument I would put forward. So it's a private road, but you have road frontage. Do you have access to it by two drives? And you have, there's nothing between you and the road other than the property that owns the road. We have an owner who said I could turn that into a town property real quick, thank you. Well, Mr. Chair. Yes. Mr. Rushman has his hand raised. Oh, thank you. Go ahead, Mr. Rushman. Yes, it's actually follows up what you just said, Mr. Chair. At the point in time when the road is improved, the access road to Fisher Road, as I understand it, that road will become a public road, a town road in the same way as the other end of Mall Road is being converted from a private road to a public road. And so at that point, there won't even be this distinction of having frontage on a private road. At that point, you know, to Subaru will in fact have frontage on a public street. And I understood Mr. Birmingham's comments about not many people walk to his dealership, but in point of fact, the road, the Fisher Mall Road that enters into Fisher Road is the primary way that his customers get to his dealership. So if... We were looking for a way forward, not a way to be divided here. Well, it appears as if this agreement has been made without our knowledge that this is going to come to pass. We got a notification just before the last hearing. And this is a condition that does not exist today as I make my application. And from a business standpoint and a property owner, I think completely my rights say I don't own that property and I don't own road frontage. And I suppose it could be an argument could be made for that. I'm not trying to make the argument either. I'm trying to say, you know what, I recognize the importance of what's going on here and saying when that road is improved, I am willing to do my part. So if that is a, you know, if somehow the onus is to be put upon us as the first applicant through to construct this road, then honestly this is a non-starter for us. I can't add that kind of property, you know, that kind of cost to this project and have the business sustain that kind of expense. So I'm not sure if that's what is being suggested here or if my suggestion is acceptable that, you know, I am trying to be a good neighbor and citizen, but I can't shoulder the burden of rebuilding what's going to be a town road. I also assume that there will be possible state and federal monies to do something like that that aren't going to be available to either us or the current owners as private businesses. So, you know, I guess I'm a little perplexed by that. If that's the direction the board is pointing this. I should point out, you're not the first through the gate. We've had other applicants who had to deal with the same criteria in the Newtown Center and also on the very, my favorite, both have the same condition for sidewalk destruction along the front of the property. So this is not, we're not experimenting here with you. This has been accepted as a reasonable standard and has already been applied with by three other applicants. I think what we're trying to tell you is what is important to the board, you know? And one of the things that's important to the board and the message we were trying to get to you is, we're trying to make the mall road look like something other than a mall road. In other words, we wanted to make it look like a street. Streets have things like parking, they have things like sidewalks, they have things like landscaping. And so we're trying to get to that place and I think that's important for the success of the Newtown Center to have that kind of a visual appearance when you enter the thing. That's where we were born. I completely understand that and I also acknowledge and understand that other applicants in the town of Berlin have had to adhere to building sidewalks and stuff. I don't know if any of them would have been required to move Route 302 to do that, to accomplish it. And maybe they have and somehow they were able to work that into their budget to do so. I'm just saying that it's impossible for me to look at that and say that's a way forward. I think there's a... Have you thought through how you might provide access from your dealership to the mall road or to the mall from pedestrian access? Well, and I think last meeting I said we would designate a drive lane. We'd probably do it with painting on the pavement and curving and signage and try to provide a way up there. But you don't actually have plans showing this at this point? No, I asked to get in front of the board so that I could talk through these things and you can spend lots of money putting up drawings that if I'm throwing darts at a board I want to make sure I'm throwing them at the right board. We're trying to be responsive. Dave, I think I heard you say that you are amenable to the idea of a sidewalk in front of your building and up on the mall road. I don't want to hurt your mouth. I think that's what you said. Well, when the road is improved that I would cover my end of that. So we issue a lot of permits with conditions that then after something is built it becomes difficult to get the applicant to comply with some time in the future. So what sort of financial, like a bonding of that sidewalk? So there's some assurance that the town has more than just your good work, you could sell the business tomorrow, you could do all of that. So I would think that some sort of financial mechanism, like a bond that you agree to and it's held by the town as collateral for you to construct that sidewalk may be palatable. And I'll just say I'm here to find a way forward. And I'm just offering this. Yeah, I think that's pretty reasonable. I think there should be a sunset on it if it goes 15 years or whatever and nothing is happening and, you know, the idea of the, you know, for whatever reason that this idea died on the vine and I hope that's not the case. But I mean, I think there's a way forward there that would make some sense. And I do believe, I don't want to speak from the board, but the conversations that just a painted on your asphalt road for pedestrians to walk. I think this board really wants some segregation from the traveling. I thought I said a curb. I thought I heard you say curb. Well, and what I would envision is a curb between the two because that's, you know, for safety, you know, or for sidewalk. Yeah. Yeah. We have a hand raised up. Yes, Joe. I just wanted, Joe, if I don't acknowledge you right away, we're in the middle of a conversation. So all of a sudden I knew you were there. All right. So, you know, I appreciate you letting me know that, but I'm trying to finish the conversation we were having. Were we done? I think we're at the point where, yes, I'm saying when we come back, we'll provide sidewalk up that drive. Yes, Joe. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just, I just wanted to follow up with Dave's conversation and Tom's point. And certainly he's the applicant is his money. And if you want us to agree to a bond, I don't have any argument there. But I think to the question of how is it upheld or enforced, this whole process is a regulatory process. And it's not somebody giving you their word. Even though nobody has been sworn into these proceedings, it's still a testimony that's offered through the pseudo judiciary hearing that when it's a condition of the board that says, in order to make this permit valid, the applicant shall do this and the applicant shall do that. We understand that enforcement can sometimes be cumbersome, but that is the process in which the applicant is legally held to their responsibility under testimony. With regard to the painted sidewalk, again, it's Dave's decision to make, but there are miles and miles and miles of painted and striped walking paths and bike paths on roads as popular as Route 100, Route 2. They can be a safe way for people to get from point A to point B, especially within a private lot that doesn't have a lot of traffic. I think it can be curbed so that there is segregation. I don't know if it has to be a formal race sidewalk, but once again, I'm not dismissing the idea. I'm just pointing out that there are plenty of examples around the state where there are very safe passages for pedestrians and bicyclists on paved roads that are simply painted. So I just wanted to add those two cents. Thanks. Thank you. And you make a good point. I don't want to say that I'm not here tonight, but I believe everyone here tonight has been sworn in and this is a continuation of that previous meeting. So I assume, unless we have, do we have anything new? I don't think we have anything new. You were sworn in and are under oath because this is a continuation of the previous meeting. At least that's my view. So if I may, then, you know, we're... Are you going on to the next one? Yeah. We're miles apart unless I'm misinterpreting the piece about the road, but I'll hear back from you folks on that, I'm sure. So I think we're to the section, to the town center district and... We're just, we're actually not negotiating a permit here. I understand. We're having a dialogue, an open dialogue. Yeah. And I think we shared with you, frankly, early in the process because you asked for it, some of our concerns. Sure. So that you knew where to go and address or not address. I appreciate that 100%. This is not... I'm not going to walk out of here with a certificate. Every time you would ask for a... Mr. Green, ask for an opinion of each individual member. We don't do it that way. We basically would convene into a deliberate session and we would come out of the recession with the decision. That's how the process would be awkward and I would suggest we don't want to go through that. Sure. Sure. So I'm going to move on to section 2101 on the town center district, item two on the substantive list in the memo. And A is all about the building height to conform to a quote unquote B street standard, which is 25 feet, I believe. And we can, in fact, find a way to make that work. That's not a... It would be more on an appearance than an actual building ice, but we can meet that criteria. And then the architectural standards. You ask us to really rethink the facade and talk about, you know, not a typical building. I'm a very, matter of fact, practical guy. You know, I don't need fancy stuff. I try to provide great service when people come to my business. And frankly, I don't think they care what the building looks like. They want to get their business done. They want a clean place to sit and good coffee and water and a clean bathroom. That said, listen, I understand this is sort of one of the gateways into the town center. And what you're trying to accomplish and respect that. So I asked Joe to go back and let's look at this with a new set of eyes. And I talked about, you know, what if we did... I actually am a big fan of Vermont Post and Beam structures and said, well, can we give it some sort of look like that? And we're going to build the building probably out of the same materials, but we're going to do it in a way that could just give it frankly a completely different look. And, you know, I was actually thought of this as I drove up 89 and passed one of our visitor centers. And they really did a nice job on a couple of them, I think. And I have been living in a Post and Beam house, so I'm a fan of it. And it's, you know, it's just, to me, it's very, very homey and Vermont-y. So I asked Joe to play around with that. You know, I guess I was going to look for some feedback on, you know, as that. And I don't know if we'd be able to have Joe share his screen or not. Joe, would you be able to put up the 3D drawing that you did for us? Hold on, I got to get my... Oh, yeah. I can try. I think Tom needs to let me in. You should have it now, Joe. All right. And I will tell you this, I will give it the old college try, but sometimes over Zoom, things get a little shaky on the old CAD routine. Can we, can you guys see that? Can everybody see that? Yeah. So, Joe, if it's, if it's okay, because I, maybe I'll just talk us through this for a second. Okay, so on the left is our, what I call our main entrance, that we're, you know, close to 80% of our customers are going to enter through those bay doors. And we'd like that to be the focal point, you know. So that's where Joe added in more windows. He added in the post and beam accents. He added in a cupola. And, you know, it looks a little more like the Vermont barn and, and to me a more welcoming structure. Subaru hates this, by the way. I think I can work through that with them, but I, you know, I have to call them and say, I'm trying to do something different. And they want McDonald's Golden Arches. They want everything to look the same so that it is, in fact, you know, identifiable as a large logo, right? So we have that. And then, Joe, if you could pan down the span of the long facade, that I think was probably the greatest concern. So this viewpoint is from... So this is the eastern elevation, I'm sorry, facing the Berlin Wall Road. Okay. And so this is what we're going to see from the street. And so we kind of carried that same post and beam look across the facade of the building. And used, Joe, if I mess this up, it's a, what he calls rain wall is, you know, wood, wood boards that go in a horizontal fashion and to me look like a lot of places wasps can sit, but it does look kind of cool. Is it a hardy plank, Joe? Well, this is a rain screen. And the material of choice would be a wood like material, but we were probably going towards a cellular PVC. That's more of a plastic, just because it's more durable. Back in the day, we used to use teak or I pay, which is very expensive wood. And it doesn't preclude us from using wood, but the cellular PVCs have come a long ways and they have a wood grain and they can be pre-tinted to any color. So the color would be, in this case, a darker wood finish. And then we'd use glue lambs out in front to emulate a little bit of an arbor, if you will. And those would be more of a dug fur or a lighter wood color just to help break up that long facade. And then everything that's dark gray is the standard Subaru slate, which is a prerequisite for those guys. The tower slate is non-negotiable. So we've included the Wayne Scott, if you will, along the primary facade and then plaid this area here, which is the intermediary between the service shop and the service drive. And then of course everything in gray remains the metal panels that we had talked about before. Is there a requirement for the coloring of the cupola roof? Can that change? Can that be changed? Well, the cupola isn't a requirement from Subaru. As Dave said, they actually probably hate this cable roof. That's what I'm designed to begin with. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, but I think my expectation would be that the cupola siding would be the same as the primary building siding on this. But yeah, I think again, at this point, everything's quote unquote negotiable. The thought is that this is a standing seam metal roof, probably a dark gray or a black to help accent the timbers. And then the cupola might even have louvers in it to emulate the functioning cupola, even though it wouldn't be. I haven't talked to him into the weather bane yet, but I'm working. Water tank. Not a bad idea. The weather can change so fast here. Well, it is always Subaru weather on this weather bane. So I think in the grand scheme of things, this is an attempt to try to, obviously it's not completely detailed, but it's more of an attempt to show you a direction that is quite a separation from the last images that you guys saw. Obviously with the hope that this, this primary element on the left is really going to be the focal point. It's the closest to the road. It's on an angle as we talked about last time. Now incorporating a pitched roof with these timber accents. It really brings it down into that human scale. And then breaking up the long facade again, those architectural desires. And adding more glass to the front. Break that up. Two extra for the other board members. Sure. A question by the members of the board. This is Carla. Dave, you can make it a Subaru weather bane. I think we have to come up with something a little cooler than that, but who knows. Yeah. The words love. Yeah. Someone's paying attention. Yes. That might make them happy. Unless somebody has further comments on the architectural standards questions about the architectural standards, I would go ahead with the next section. I'm just moving forward. Sure. May I just ask, does that help this help? I think we were looking, I'll speak for myself. Sure. I may be, I'm the engineer on the board. So, you know, I'm on the outside here. We're looking for an effort in your part. I will tell you that you labor under the problem and that we can look up a half a dozen Subaru places that have some very nice architectural work done. I think Framingham, or Farmington, Connecticut, very nice facility. It's not the standard Subaru. That kind of design would fit into what we're talking about. So we've seen examples of what Subaru can do. They will accept. Yeah. So we were looking for some sense of that. And I hope this accomplishes that. And so I'm sensing that maybe you don't think it does. And that's... No, I'm not saying that. Okay, I'm just... It's one of those things where we're trying to look for some feedback because... I mean, I think concrete bridges look good. You're talking to the wrong members of the board. You know, and most of the really cool examples you'll see online are almost all metal panels. I don't know if that's what you ran into. I do have a few examples in my head that don't fit that mold, but it was also a multi-year process fighting with Subaru to accomplish some of those things. And it was all driven by local zoning and we certainly want to avoid that if we can. So the approach tonight was to try to say, hey, we want to please here. We can meet the high restrictions. We'll be creative on the exterior. You're looking at probably a several hundred thousand dollar price increase to me to accomplish this over my simple, I want a clean building. But that's the type of flexibility we're trying to display, I guess. What we'll do is, you know, we're having a dialogue here. I remember the board here to speak, but the actions of the board will be after deliberation. I think my feeling is we should give you a sense afterwards whether or not we've made progress in their loose ends just before you go ahead and put a lot of pencil to paper. Thank you. That would be my recommendation to the rest of the board. And we'll evaluate where we are at this point in time given the dialogue we've had so far on all of these issues that we've covered. So thank you. I'll move on. On the outdoor lighting, there was in fact a revision necessary in order to meet the zero denominator. So that has been accomplished and there's a attach to those drawings and maybe the last page is a new photometrics display there that should meet that criteria right now. Sure, yeah. It's an eye chart, too. I can send it electronically if that helps anyone. So the areas I know that are very hard for you to flex on are those first couple of things that we've spent a lot of time on. The areas that are really difficult for us to flex on are around the parking issues. The core of our business is where sales lot. People come because they want to see our products, test drive our products, compare products side-by-side and by, you know, Tom will tell you I've been trying to find external storage lots for several years for our dealerships. It's a problem that's ongoing. I have two different things in the works, one in town and one out of town. It's such a horrible thing to have to do but it's a necessary evil given the nature of our business. But to lose any parking unnecessarily on this property is, it starts to become now, you know, another economic penalty for us. So we're reducing our current parking by adding the expansion of the building and to try to further limit parking for setbacks and things where, again, the setbacks from the road are already way off base for this district and, you know, again, sort of out of our control. We're actually reducing the current, you know, existing conditions and therefore reducing parking, I guess in essence, improving that, but, you know, for both parking limitations and setbacks it's just a, you know, that's with the core of our business. Questions by the board? Tom, you have some thoughts? Dave, I think what we were discussing was if you could just eliminate these spaces right here and then that gets, that would meet the setback to parking, right? I think it does. I didn't get too far of the devil in that detail and that's 10, 15 spaces and you know your business, you know, but I think that's what we were trying to do. Maybe make this, you know, a green space, a picnic table out here, something like that. So the economics of this honestly are, that parking spot is probably $12,500 to $15,000 to me. It's, you know, it's a cumulative 10 parking spots is a substantial hit and every time we have to go off-site to bring product for a customer, you know, it just increases liability from an accent standpoint, et cetera, increases traffic and stress on traffic patterns that frankly, you know, we are trying to limit as much as possible. It's from the street, when the sidewalk is there, it really is, from a visual impact, it's not going to make a difference. It's, we're a car lot and I can't apologize for that. That's what the core of our business is. So this is just an area to ask the board and say, you know, please allow us to do, conduct our business and you know, the properties I've found off-site aren't adequate for our overflow present conditions excluded because we don't have any inventory right now because of the microchip problem. Oh my goodness, that's another whole meeting. Hopefully that's just temporary. Have you thought about like eliminating some of them, you know, having sort of bulb outs with some landscaping, maybe eliminate five and, you know, and put some trees in or something to help sort of segue, you know, this area down into the lot. So we did, in fact, we had an exhausting discussion on this and one of the problems is when we, snow is an all-day event for an automobile dealership and we are obviously in a snowy area, every impediment you put to a snow plow creates, you know, more challenges. So this area is already a major challenge and when we have an overnight snow, this is the area we need to get clear as fast as possible because everyone's trying to drop off their cars before work and it really is such a challenge and that's, you know, I hate to lose spots back here but it would be harder for me to say that is such essential travel lanes that, you know, but this is one of those areas. If I don't have that space to clear and if I put more impediments there, it frankly becomes a safety issue on site, especially on those snow days. And this area is already tighter than we'd like it to be but it's the best that we can do given the current site. So we have, we have beat this thing silly, honestly, trying to come up with different options and every time, you know, I'm asking the engineers, find me 10 more parking spots. That's, you know, $250,000 in a year. That's, please find him for me. He's telling me, stormwater, he's doing his job and making it meet the criteria as best we can but honestly, it's such a challenge for our business and will continue to be for years to come unfortunately but that's my problem, not yours. So this facility is surrounded by a sea of parking. Have you talked to them all about maybe availability of parking that they may have which then could allow you to maybe redo something? I'm just suggesting that you talk to them to that end. I had agreements predating the current mall ownership and had an agreement with the current mall ownership but when they developed coals across the street, I lost that option. You know, they're a very good neighbor. I'm sure if there was a feasible way to do it but they would be open to such an agreement but to have that and not have it as a permanent solution and then give up space on here is really, you know, Tom, you know, we've been trying for years. Yeah, I understand. Yeah, it seems like coals has a lot of availability. We look at it with a little greenness. I must say, you know, but that's, they're a tenant and they pay their rent to have that space and so we, but again, that's, I really just don't see us being able to give up parking on this. It's so critical and that's the core of our business. I wish, you know, I wish we had three more acres of parking here and not what you all want to hear, but that's the reality of our businesses. It's an immediate business and people are busy and they, you know, to even run 10 minutes and get a car is a 20 minute return while people are trying to be efficient. It's just very difficult. And we try to work on appointments so we can have your three cars you're interested, but that just doesn't always work. Questions or comments by the board? Tour, Coller, John. No. I would just ask you to go back to your narrative bed and try to give more detail on the number of spaces, earmark for employees, earmark for customer drop-off. Your narrative is sort of just lumped. It said, you know, the XMI. Just to give it some thought so we could... I'd be happy to do that, sure. Part of our issues are not so much satisfying Berlin, but Berlin wants to meet its objectives for the Downtown Center. We really have to address the criticisms we've had from the state. Understood. And so I think we have to demonstrate best efforts. Right. I described it to my team as a tightrope. I think you all have to walk a little bit. And I appreciate that. It's not a simple task to, you know, uphold the vision and still, you know, try to be sensitive to applicant's needs. And, you know, we certainly appreciate that. If I can, I'd just like to make a general statement about our business, because on the first glance, I don't know that we actually fit the vision of what, you know, a Town Center ought to be. Okay? And, you know, let's talk about the elephant in here. It's a nice elephant. But in truth, a business like ours is a very valuable business to a Town Center. We're a destination. People come because they want to look at a Toyota and they want to look at a Subaru or they need to get their service. And the reality for all of us these days is they have a recall on their car. And they have to get it done because it's a safety issue. So Toyota did a study for us. Subaru did studies for us. And on average, our average service customers driving 26 miles to come to our business. And if you know what all our roads are like, that could be a 45-minute trip for some of these people. So we're actually bringing a lot of people to the Town Center district that would not be coming otherwise. And a lot of the businesses that I think we all envision populating this center in the future are going to benefit from that. Not only are we bringing them to this site, but more importantly, we tend to have an affluent customer. Because they drive 26 miles on average, they don't necessarily want to drop off their car and go away. We have many, many customers that just decide they're going to wait for their car to be repaired. And as really an exciting place as we are, it's not the most entertaining place to be. So having businesses in the area for them to visit while they have time on their hands and money in their pockets is a really powerful thing for this Town Center. And with this expansion, we currently have anywhere between 150 and 200 customers arriving a day. We expect that to go up, and it will take a few years to grow into this, but we expect that to go up 50 to 100 customers a day. We also need to add employees because of that. Our employees also need a place to go out and have lunch and shop. And so we believe we're an economic engine for the Town Center. And again, at first glance, maybe we're not the bougie coffee shops that would be kind of cool to have in sidewalk cafes. But we're going to bring people that want to be at those places. And I think that's a really... You could have a sidewalk cafe right over here. So, you know, the truth of the matter is we really are a destination business. And all of those people that come here, and please, this is not of any sort of, you know, do this or else. It's just a fact that if I can't get this application approved, I have to go offsite somewhere and build this. And I have another fight with Subaru, but that's my problem, not yours. But with that expansion goes a lot of those people who might otherwise be brought right to this Town Center district. And I think that's really where this could become a win-win for the town, the occupants of the center, and my customers alike. You know, they have interesting things to do. Sometimes we lose people to Burlington because there's more to do up there. So if they drop off their car up there and go down to Church Street, you know, it'd be nice to have a Church Street here in Berlin. And I think that's what you're after. So I can bring a lot of people to our street. And I hope that's... Can we get that in writing? Which is why we think access to circulation for your customers to the rest of the facilities is really paramount. You know, I don't disagree at all. I think it's going to be accomplished in the future more with probably autonomous electric vehicles that will scoot up to Starbucks and things like that. So that's a little bit down the road, but it's actually happening. So, you know... And just as a sidebar for you, a lot of you, Mr. Chair, the Planning Commission is talking about what can we do on this road. And we're talking about adding, trying to get food trucks to come in on a regular basis and just start creating that atmosphere that you just alluded to, David. And I could say personally that we welcome your business in this town. I think we've shown that we have been good partners. And we wanted that to continue. I concur, and that's why I came in this... To have a dialogue rather than lawyer-uppers and do anything dumb. So that's really where my heart's at on this. I want to see that vision. I love the food trucks up the hill, but that would be awesome for our customers. I just hope we can find a way forward. I certainly appreciate everyone... There was one other item... Oh, I'm sorry. ...that did not address. Number five. The parking setback. That's different than four. Sorry, I was sort of addressing them in lump sum because they're part and parcel of the same issue for me, is giving up space or playing with the setbacks as they are. Really, especially up here, is just going to impede everything that happens in the key elements of the purchase. What our discussion at the deliberative session, can you just acquire another 10 feet and move your property line through a boundary line adjustment with them all, 10 feet, and then you meet this? It's just something for you to consider. I mean, who knows? I'm trying to do a simple subdivision on a different piece of property, it's taken a year. This is something that the zoning administrator could do. It's not a subdivision, it's a boundary line adjustment. Your book continues property owners. It's a 48-hour process. But I'm just saying, have you considered it? I haven't, but I certainly will look at it. Apparently, I've been paying tax on that piece of property anyway. So, not really. Good for the channel. Good for the mall. Well, frankly, until we saw these plans, I think the many of us thought, you probably went up the road. Yeah, it's a natural assumption. It probably predates the road. It does, and it predates owners on the mall side and my ownership considerably. I know the guy grew up on the farm here. He used to work at the Toyota building. Yeah. Well, it's a terribly creative, it's a simple way to solve a regulatory requirement by moving a property line. You already have, I presume, some kind of easement to maintain that swale. No, we have just a simple easement for the access road, but we have always maintained that just as a courtesy, again, predating there. Do you have a right of way for that access road? Is it an easement? It is an easement, I believe, and I can confirm that for you. Yeah, we looked up and it was an easement. We have another one off the Toyota property and then we have actual frontage on Fisher Road. Any other questions by board members? For the comments by the applicant. Thank you for your time. Please, I hope you understand where we're trying to be flexible and agreeable with the vision. Ultimately, everybody needs to maybe walk away giving up a little but gaining the bulk of a positive move forward. As I said earlier, I'd like to suggest that the board reconvene and deliver a session another time or we could do it tonight. Just to give some feedback to the applicant. I think it would be better served if we were all together but I'll let you make that decision, Mr. Chair. I mean, all together is in one room? Yes, you know. These plans go away for people who are fine. Yeah, they don't. That's true. That's a good point. How does the board feel about that? I mean, I'm game. Sounds good to me. You're game for what? Yeah. Getting together. In person. In person having a discussion. And I'm not talking about a very long discussion. I think what we're talking about here is we've heard some information from the applicant. We've thrown some issues out for the applicant. Where do we go? The question is where do we go next? What kind of guidance do we give the applicant before you spend a lot more money on paper? Right. Mr. Chair. Yes. Mr. Green has his hand up. Mr. Green, please. I just wanted to maybe request that maybe we could ask the board tonight what their general thoughts are on some of these points of order. Because if you, if you go away to deliberative session. And it's another seven to 10 days before Dave gets additional directive. Then it's another seven to 10 days after that to have potentially revised documents to then get on another agenda. And as we said last time, you know, we're very much up against the construction season, as you know. And there's been some great dialogue tonight. There seems to be some inflection in terms of where the board is at, but I think it would be nice while everybody's still connected. If we could just get a general sense on, you know, what are non starters and what are considerations. Because I think from both sides. There's some movement towards the middle, but it also appears that there might be a couple of things on the outside of it that. If we're not willing to move one way or the other, then it could be a lot of time lost over the next couple of weeks just to get to that point of finding out that it's a non starter so it's just a simple request. It's a fair request. Unfortunately, the board doesn't act individually. It really acts as a body. So we really would need to deliberate. I don't, you know, if I told you what I thought it'd be, you know, inappropriate, you know, and it may not be the convincing thought, you know. So I think it'd be better if we did that. Let me make this commitment to you. We'll not make it seven days. We'll make it much quicker than that. You know, I'd rather, I would need to pull the members of the board because we have all have other lives. Yeah. But if we could get together this week, someday early this week, Thursday, Thursday, something like that. Thursday. Thursday is hard for me. Thursday is really hard for me. I've got a lot going on Thursday. Friday. Are you new Friday. I can do Friday. Friday. We'll early afternoon for me. Yeah, early afternoon. Yeah, for me, Carla, can you do afternoon? Let me just look at my schedule. Hold on. Because I'm saying I love the calendar. So am I. Unfortunately, I have to bow out of an in-person meeting right now. Sorry, I can, Friday afternoon is fine. Okay. We'll try to see if we can get some feedback from you, John. Okay. 1pm-ish. 1pm-ish? Yeah, yeah. Again, let's confirm that. So we're going to shoot for that and you should hear from us this week. Well, I'll have to set out a notice that warning this. Yeah. Two days, two days. That's right. Well, this is this. We don't need to set out a notice. This is where we're in. But you are meeting as a board again. I'll have to warn that you are meeting here. Okay, I'll write it down. Yeah, you're right. Two days notice. You'll go out tomorrow. Yeah. Okay. That is an important point. And I copy it. We'll make sure we get back to you this week if we can. Thank you. Appreciate that. We do appreciate you running out of time. I gotta tell you, I'm not always totally sympathetic to that because I want to argue that you should have started earlier. Wish we could have? We've been, see it's a couple of fronts. Have you had plenty of clients over the years that decided they wanted to do something this fall and they decided that in August? It's a big project. It was supposed to be last fall, frankly. And it's been this. I think you sense that we feel we've made some progress. Yeah. I guess what the board has to do as a body is decide have we made enough progress here that if we continue what we could. And it would not be a permit. It would not be okay because we still got the issues addressed. So will this meet our regulations? That a certain percentage has to be of that height? Yes, that entire facade, the blue line to the right, Tom. If you look at this blue line across the top of this long building will be at 25 feet. And then this will be higher and this will be higher. So yes, we understood the spirit of that. I think that's important. Bob. Yes. So we have to continue this meeting, don't we? Yes. So I would accept the motion to continue this meeting to Friday. 1 p.m.? That date is... I was referring to the hearing. Last time we continued it. Yes, yes, yes. Oh, we have to get another date, you mean? Yeah, that really good back to you though. When can you get back to us with... Assuming that we've got a place to go here, which we're thinking we do. At least I'm thinking we do, speaking to one person. We need to get you back on for a meeting and that would mean stop from Joe, stop from... Yeah. Prior to you meeting Friday, I'm going to try to get you some articulation on the breakdown on parking. Yeah. So that can be... It can be that hard. We've already got the lighting. We've already got it. We've got the lighting. You know, I guess we can put a lot more detail into this drawing and breakdown of materials and such, but again wanting to know, is this the direction that makes you happy was what we're looking for. I'm excited about the service tribe in Post and Beam. As I said, I kind of like that. I think it's a very homie in Vermont. Yeah, yeah. And I should say, if you say this looks good, I actually need a denial from the board in order to go and appeal this with Subaru. So they won't approve this as it sits. If I get a denial that... On the other, you mean? On the other. This is not an acceptable proposal for the current standards. You need to do something different. This is our solution in order to get an exception, including moving that tower off the other wall. It's a bunch of... I'm not sure how we do that. We issue a denial and you have to go and appeal. Ken, would it be satisfactory if you have something short of an actual denial of the permit? Well, can we say that what you submitted does not meet our regulations? The term that was used with me is we need you to be denied and that you have to appeal the application. It's only for you. It wasn't my favorite day. So you could deny it tonight. Well, we're not... We're not ruling on the whole application, though. But you could. We can go and deliver the session and discuss it. I guess what I would ask is that we could continue the dialogue and if it was... We find... We see a way forward here that we then figure out the best way to accomplish that to meet all of our needs. Is that real? Yeah, I'm not prepared to deal with that tonight. I'd have to really look at our bylaws to see how we do that. Yeah, that means we have to... We try not to deny people. I don't want you to deny my application. We try to... We try to... We all work together. But I understand your situation, so the question is if you really actually need a denial... I'll confirm. Can you deal with a denial on one line? Yes, Mr. Green. Maybe just a suggestion to consider language just isn't the language, but in other jurisdictions and other experiences that we've had, the boards typically deliberate and make a decision on a point-by-point basis. So I think it would be okay within your decision-making process to say on point with regard to facade architectural standards, the applicant's original proposal, Exhibit 1, it does not meet our standards, is therefore is not approved by the board. However, subsequent or subsequent submission Exhibit 2 does, therefore, the board finds that Exhibit 2 meets our standards or something like that. So you're offering a denial on Exhibit 1, but then recognizing that the applicant followed up with an alternative solution that didn't meet your approval. So something to that effect. I'll circle back with the folks at Subaru and say what do you actually need and convey that. It works for me, we just need to work through the logistics. But a good suggestion, Mr. Green. I would rather not do it, however, is deal with the other points yet. In other words, I don't want to have findings on the other points until we flush them out. But we certainly could have a finding on the architectural standards. That's basic to the district. Yeah. We're all nodding, I think we can get there. I'll get some clarification tomorrow and provide that in writing for you. Thank you. Do you have a date that we could... I'm going to suggest we do not have anything on October 5th for this board's consideration. We actually do. It doesn't give the applicant much time. But let's pick October 5th. We'll see what you can promise you can make and that may not be enough time for you, but at least we can... Then they can ask for a... Yeah, you can ask for a continuation. Okay, thank you. Okay, so I would have made a motion that Carlos, since you're the one who brought it up, the motion to continue this to October 5th. Oh, no. Second. Second by Polly. Discussion of that motion. All in favor of that motion, please sit by by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. And we will plan on that as a date when hopefully we can have a private survival hearing. Okay? Thank you. If for some reason you have trouble with that, you'll let us know. It'll be 7 p.m. Okay. Okay. Is any else coming from this board? We thank you for joining us tonight. Thank you all for your time. I appreciate it. And I will entertain a motion to adjourn. So moved. Second. Pardon? You have to make the motion to go into the lower section for this. We need to move to deliberate on Friday. Yes. Yes, good point. Valid point. Thank you, Christy. Well, we're going to deliberate on Friday, which is what we think we've agreed to do. We do need the most to go into the session on Friday. At 1 p.m. I will move to go into deliberate this session on Friday at 1. Is there a second on that motion? Okay. Thank you, George. Discussion on motion. We understand that's difficult for you, John, but we'll see if we can get feedback from you. Okay. Thank you. All those favor of that motion, please say goodbye by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Thank you, everyone. Thank you. We'll continue this meeting putting the hearing on Dr. Earl salad. Okay. Should I move that we adjourn now? Yes. I think we'll there. I think we're party there. Got a motion to adjourn? Is there a second? I'll second. Gonna be a second. I'll also favor that mission. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Good night everybody. Thank you