 Okay. Welcome to the Monday, October the 4th, 2021 meeting of the Montpelier Design and Review Committee. I will let committee members and staff introduce themselves. Eric Galbertson. Martha Smurski, Member. Ms. Pritchett, Member. And Steve Everett, Member. Mike Miller, Department staff here in the council chambers. And I will let. And Meredith Crandall, I'm staffing more for substance remotely tonight. Okay. And either Meredith or Mike, would you like to review the remote meeting procedures? I can do that if everybody can hear me just fine. Okay. All right, so I'm going to put something up on the share screen. This is more for people watching via Orca, who decided that they want to log in. One second. Okay. I've got too many things going on here. Can everybody see that? Yes, looks good. Okay, great. So for any of you who are viewing this meeting via Orca media, you can participate in the design review committee meeting. Via the zoom platform using this link here. You can also call in and use this meeting ID. And I'll let you ask questions and otherwise participate in the meeting. You can also give any problems accessing the meeting. Please email me at this email address. Looks like we may have lost. Meredith. Okay. I think she is out. Oh, there we go. We boot back out. Okay. I think we can probably move on with the hearing. Knowing that if there are issues, I think that's the big thing is if there are issues to email. Meredith and we will help to get things squared away. Okay. If we're to move on at this point, do I hear a motion to approve the agenda? So moved. All in favor of the agenda speaker names or raise your hand. Okay. Yes. Steve. So the agenda is approved. Unless anybody has anything else to add at this point, we can go to the first application on the agenda, which is for 99 state street properties, the placement of two new signs. Do we have an applicant? Yes, my name's Tom's your family's design signs. Okay. Okay. So there's a free standing sign monument sign. We often call them. It'll be double sided 11.87 square feet. So it falls under the 12 square foot maximum. We did it in keeping with the structures and signs around town by using these black posts. I hope that you have the correct mockup. I should look something like that. Okay. So we had a hitchhiker on the back of one of our applications. This was an old mockup. So just want to make sure we're not looking at that as we're. We're doing things. So that's the first sign in the main one. And then there is a smaller way finding sign as you're entering the parking lot should look something like this. And that is three square feet. And that's to help guide folks, to get to the parking lot. So that's the only place where you can get to the parking lot. And that's the only place where you can get to the back access. That's where it's the only place for handicapped individuals to gain access to the building. And I guess I should add. Placements. You should also see something like this. Which here is essentially where I'm trying to do it backwards. Where the monument sign is going to be placed in the front garden area. And then there's a smaller way finding sign. So that's where it's going to be placed. And it's going to be on the outside of the fence right there. And along the edge of the driveway. Sorry about that. Are you guys in the middle of looking at the first application? Yes. Great. Tom, what are the colors. Of the sign is that black and white. We don't show any other colors on our. Okay. So the posts themselves are black. The background is white. And then the text and logo portion. I'm not sure if I can point to it on here. This is a light blue is a little lighter than Navy. Louise, would you weigh in on a color? I know I have the pants on swatch someplace, but. It is a blue. For this. It is. It's almost, it is almost Navy. Very close to Navy. For both sides. No, then on this other one. This one here. Sorry. This one here is just black text. Okay. On this way, finding signs. Okay. White background. Both signs are two sided. That is correct. Okay. Do any committee members have any questions or comments or suggestions regarding the signs? I'm just going to say, I think they both look. Very nice. Quite handsome. And we'll be good with the building. Thank you. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. We have three criteria. For signs in the design condo. Control district. Number one, the size, location, design, color, texture, lighting and material of all exterior design. Exterior signs within the design review district. She'll be compatible with the building and structure of the site and surrounding properties acceptable. original sign placement and sign bands when I struck structures. These locations are acceptable for this building. If the building has multiple tenants, there'll be, she'll be consistency. I believe there's only one tenant there. So I'll just call that acceptable. Sign, design, color and typography show respective historic precedents and she'll be of the appropriate scale there. That's acceptable. Sign support structures, she'll be compatible with the building architecture and must not be overly complex or dominant, acceptable. All in favor of the application, speak your names. Eric. Martha, yes. Liz, yes. And Steve, yes. Do you know what I want to explain the next step for his final approval? I think I'll leave the two Meredith if she can give the next steps. Yeah, so since you're both attending remotely, we'll email you a scan of the recommendation form that Steve just filled out to get your signature on that. But because there were no actual recommendations, we don't actually need that back before we issue the permit. So we'll get that out to you as soon as we can, but we will want that recommendation form back to put in the file. Great. Very good. Thank you very much for coming before the committee and good luck with your project. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Appreciate your help. Bye bye. We can move to the next application for 70 Main Street applicant, Charlie O's for replacement of front windows. Is there someone there remotely for the application? I haven't seen anybody log in for that. I've sent emails to the contacts we had for both 70 Main Street and, oh, sorry, there was one other to the dash property, but I haven't seen anything back there. I was kind of hoping they were there in person. So I guess if no one's here to describe the application, I guess we move to the next application in case someone shows up at a later time in the meeting. I've never had anything more than that. Yeah, I don't know. And anyway, the next application is for two-mather terrace, which is for replacement of the retaining wall. Nobody there? Okay, we'll move on to the next application for two-mather terrace. Owner applicant, Carolyn Dish, for replacement of a retaining wall. Is someone there remotely? No, again, I was hoping to use there in person because I can't see the audience area there. I, like I said, I sent her an email as well when I realized that they weren't on remotely. Yeah, we have nobody in the audience tonight. Okay. I should say that I'm a body and property owner on this. I don't think I have a conflict. I just wanted to just put that on the record. Okay. Can someone remind me where a mother terrace is? A mother terrace, get to the intersection of Bailey and where terrace heads out to Middlesex if you go the other way. If you go right there. Eric, can you get closer to the microphone? It's really hard to hear you. To be closer to the microphone. That's right at the foot of Richardson Street, Hopkins. It's the street that's right behind the Capitol. Oh, okay. Okay, thank you. Yeah. It's really an extension of terrace street that goes out to Middlesex and comes across Bailey and keeps on going. Thanks, Eric. Okay. I guess if no one's here for that application, we'll move forward to the next application, 12 to 16 Main Street. This is the city of Montpelier reviewing the relocation of the Gerton Parkland Structure and was there anything added? Is someone from the city here to represent that? I am. Hi, this is Cameron Niedermeyer. I'm the assistant city manager. We were here at your last meeting for the same issue. So what you've seen before you now is a slight deviation of the plan that you had approved at your last DRC. Since the new public art went in, our parks director and our police department and a few other department leaders asked that we really consider the location of the Gerton Park gazebo, which we are looking to relocate to make that more welcoming parklet environment so that it's more easily visible and that it doesn't conflict with the art and the view of the art that has been put in. So we are now asking to relocate it to both, it sort of straddles the line between the 12 and 16 Main Street lots, which is that open grassy lot next to Shaw's downtown. We still plan on having it be ADA accessible. It's placed on a pad. It's not being dug into anything and it will have a trail going towards it so that it can be accessible from the sidewalk. What's the material on the trail? It's going to be an aggregate. It's not going to be paved. It's a ADA accessible pounded aggregate of some variety. Okay. Thank you. I have a question about the placement of the gazebo. It looked to me like on the plans, it's set at an angle to means, not parallel to Main Street, but kind of at an angle. Correct. And that to me looks a little random or not like it just kind of was popped there, but doesn't seem to relate to the byways as well as perhaps in my opinion, I think it should be like that. Yeah, that's fair. We had applied for some grants earlier in the year. We had applied for two grants approved through city council, which is why we're moving this to situate the Gertin Park gazebo facing inwards to the lot so that it can be sort of, the river is visible from that space. The greenway is visible for their, the bike path is visible from that space. The Gertin Park gazebo is also not a solid structure. If you see the picture, it does, you can see through it. So this way it's accessible from the bike paths. It's still an aesthetically pleasing structure. And if we further develop the lot into a parklet community, which we're planning on doing is like a community asset, the gazebo structure will be facing all the public art and whatever other things we can put into the lot. So it's part of a bigger picture. Which way is it facing? It's facing, if you are looking at the 1216 grassy area from the sidewalk, it's facing, like the opening of it is sideways. So it sort of faces towards the grass, but you can access it from the side. So from the sidewalk, you see the back, right? You would see it at an angle, but yes, that's what we're proposing. We're also working with the architect who did, Ward Joyce, who said he was going to do some additional beautification once it's moved. Yeah, I guess the problem right now is it doesn't seem to relate to anything, but. There is art there. So we wanted to make sure it was more relational to that art because where it was gonna go before, where you had approved it before, before the arts commission approved where they were going to put the art that's there now. Cause if you've been by it, there's basically a new wall of art that's been put in. It would have blocked the Gerton Park gazebo that we had proposed to put it before. It would have blocked it from view entirely from the street, made it harder to access. And so we're going back to our more original plan that was approved by council to put it at the corner lot so that it can be a seating area for both folks waiting for public transport who are relaxing from the bike path who need us place to sit down from the sidewalk because there will be a trail to get to it. So we felt like having it caddy corner allows us to sort of explore a whole lot of different options with the lot. If the idea of the back of it being unesthetically pleasing is concerning, know that it really is an engaging structure from all angles. So we're looking forward to having additional public art space on the back of that as well. When you mentioned additional beautification, what do you mean? Nothing structural. He's just coming out and helping us clean it. And I think make suggestions that if we make any other changes, we've come to y'all. Are we talking about plantings? No, nothing can be planted at 12 May. I'm curious why nothing can be planted there. Oh, it's a brownfield? I was thinking maybe it was something like that. Yeah, okay, thanks. There's all the water collection stuff that's with it that go along with it. Right, so we've reached out to the state and they had no concerns about our plan. So it does the barrel, it's there and everything? Yeah, everything that was involved with the structure is coming with it. Okay, thank you. I would almost suggest that the gravel, fresh gravel bed on which it's sitting be made large enough so that if once you place it there, if you decide that you would rather have it parallel to the length of it parallel to Main Street, that you could change, rotate that location to optimize. I know this is proposed, but I would propose that it be the bed be large enough so that you could rotate it if you decided to to make the length of it parallel to Main Street. That way the open side on the narrow end would be right beside the path. And then the other open side would be directly in perpendicular off of Main Street. And again, that's an option so that it could be, that position could be changed or tweaked a little bit to optimize the visibility. Well, I like that idea too, Steve. Okay, thank you. Anybody else have anything to add to that? And again, when you tweak it, when you set it, if you have the option of turning it, then the location of any trash barrels or water tanks or whatever is there that might be, that might be part of the function of the gazebo. That again, it just gives you the flexibility to improve its appearance as much as possible. Okay. I would think rotating it to about 90 degrees so the back of it is parallel to the bike path. Would make a lot of sense. You could still look out at the river and look out at the green. It just seems like it's kind of an awkward view to from the street to see the back of it. Well, so it is angled. I will say that we're not proposing it be straight. As you can see by the drawing, it will be angled. So the angle is to give us the best way to see it from the street so that if anything is, if there's any illegal activity happening inside this gazebo, we are officers to be able to see it from the street. In this way, it also serves the parklet. It serves the sidewalk and it serves the bike path and it preserves Page Curtain's ask to make it relate to the river. So we're really trying to fill a bunch of forms here. And my other question regarding to rotating it is you're showing a four foot wide aggregate surface path which goes into the narrow side of the parklet. But if you look at the picture of the parklet in its current location, there's a fence there with a bench seat. And I'm assuming that the taller open side of the parklet would be facing Main Street which is the main exposure. Yes, so if you look at Gerton Park, it has an open side that's ADA accessible where you just sort of walk in, right? So this doesn't have a step. On the left hand side as you're facing it. Yes. And so that would be what is closest to be sitting caddy corner to Main Street. So Main Street, the closest side of it would be this open side that makes it easier to access if you have any access issues. So it'd be sitting caddy corner to Main Street with the open side facing Main Street sidewalk. So that's easy for people to get into if they have access issues. I'm having a little trouble with hearing but my understanding was that the open area faced away from Main Street. No, it's not what I'm saying. Oh, okay. And that's... If the high point of the shed roof is facing Main Street, then the current picture shows a railings on the right-hand side, which is where the path goes on the four-foot wide aggregate path that's coming off the Main Street sidewalk. I am. Right into that side. Can I share my screen? As long as it doesn't boot me off Zoom unless Mike, unless you can share the application package. I think one of us needs to share the application package. So we can circle where it goes. Can you do that, Mike? Or do you want me to try? If you want to share the packet, I think you'd have to get it. I can't do that. Let me do it, because I can just pull this right up. So if you're sitting here, if you're sitting on this bench, you're looking into the bar. Okay, so they're flipping it. So you're from the Main Street. The Main Street exposure, you're looking basically into the back wall of it unless they're removing that. So where Meredith is pointing, if you look up at your screen, where Meredith is pointing, if you look at Gertin Park from the photos, on the left side of the photo, there is an opening and that will be where the path goes to. And so Gertin Park itself, the gazebo itself is very open and airy. There's no real walls to it. So what you're seeing angled towards the sidewalk is the open area to the left side of Gertin Park so that the path goes directly into the gazebo so that people with access issues do not have any issues getting inside of the gazebo. So that if you are on Main Street sidewalk, walking towards Shaw's, you will see the side and the, so like basically a side profile of the gazebo itself, making it so that it's open for access and then the gazebo itself is sort of facing out towards the park, towards the river and towards the shared youth bike path. So it will be, so we're trying again to answer all of those questions. You'll be able to see the entire inside of the gazebo from Main Street sidewalks. None of it is gonna be blocked by any sort of walls or fencing. Okay, again, I would suggest making the crushed gravel base large enough so that if you set it and it's not doing what you intended for it to do that it could be rotated. Thank you, that's very helpful. This is Eric. I'm wondering why you have the path running at an angle to it? Why don't you just do a straight, short path that goes? Yes, I have a good answer for that. So like I said earlier, 12 is a, 12 the lot that this will straddle is a brown field and we cannot dig on it. So to make sure that the angle stay of the path stays ADA accessible and dug in so it matches the sidewalk, right? So that people can access the path from the sidewalk and it doesn't dig onto the 12 lot. It needs to be that long so that the access and the angle are all ADA accessible. Again, the structure itself sits on the gravel. So is there any attachment to the ground? Or is it just- Yes. We have in our plan in front of you a, it's a concrete pad. It's gonna be a three by three by 1.5 foot concrete block to be used as anchor and seating. How does that- Thank you. That block is on the open side of the parklet which is now facing away from Main Street. Yes, correct. Again, if you make the gravel structure large enough you can, once it's set, you can tweak it so that you get maximum appearance and use. I think that's a very good suggestion. Thank you. Anybody else have anything to add at this point? I agree with Steve's suggestion. I think that's a good idea. Make it flexible as possible. If no one else has anything else to add at this point I can read through the criteria for this project for new construction. And actually this is just a relocation of an existing structure. And we've reviewed this before. New construction should be considered to be compatible if the materials use possess a kind and type that are appropriate to the district and materials shall either fit the neighborhood context of the proposed building or reflect the nature and use of the structure acceptable. Existing buildings should be recognized as a physical record of time, place, and use. This is a fairly new building and that criteria is acceptable as well. New buildings should be compatible with the varied heights of existing adjacent buildings. This is acceptable. Orientation. New buildings should be oriented toward and relate both functionally and visually to public streets and or common greens parks or plazas to provide a uniform streetscape. New principal structure should be located and oriented with their fronts parallel to the street and with a setback distance comparable to adjacent structures. Even though the primary orientation is away from the street, again the fact that it could be movable is acceptable. Steve, I'm gonna make a suggestion that we do these things that are for buildings as not applicable because this is a park. Okay. Because we're kind of getting off. It's a, it would be in what an auxiliary structure if it was in somebody's lot. Yes. What says new principal structures? This really is not, I wouldn't call it principal structure, but I mean it sticks. Even though it's an accessory structure, again the fact that it can be moved once it's set. That's why I just said that it's not acceptable. It just doesn't apply. Because we try to apply the criteria for a new. I'm just going by what they showed that we needed to fill out for. Wow. And that was a decision made. Context and connectivity. Building design should be sensitive to overall character and context of the design review overlay district and to adjacent buildings. We'll call that acceptable. Accessory buildings and structures. New accessory buildings or structures should be located and again this is an existing that's being relocated. Should be located within either the side yard or rear yard and should not visually disrupt the streetscape or affect the integrity of the existing building or any proposed new building. We'll again, I call that acceptable in this particular case. And again, our recommendation is that the base under the structure is such that the structure can be rotated to accomplish maximum usage, accessibility and appearance when it's installed. We can do that. Based on that, do I hear vote from each committee member? Eric says yes. Liz says yes. Martha says yes with Steve's suggestions. And I say yes. So that's four in favor. So the application is approved again with a condition that the base is such that the structure can be rotated once it's installed to maximize again appearance and accessibility. Thank you all very much. I appreciate it. Okay, thank you very much for coming before the committee. So Steve, it looks like Carolyn Dash has arrived. Okay, are you there Carolyn? Yes. Go ahead and describe your retaining wall for us. It's a boulder wall runs the extent of the width of our property. There was a conglomerate two years ago. We began removing it, I'll call it cement conglomerate, wall that just kept on falling down in places that wasn't very helpful. And we had planned on a much larger project and we had planned on something else. And then we decided not to do the wall at all. And then just as the folks began doing some drainage for us, we decided to do the wall after all, but they just said, we can do a boulder wall for you. So we said, okay, let's do that. So I think it's much better. What kind of wall was there originally? When we first moved into the property 20 plus years ago, it was one of those stone, a basic stone wall, I don't know, flat and flat stones going across. And there's a picture here of a flat topped wall. Is that what was there originally? Yeah. And then we put that in 20 after we moved in. And I don't know, I just, I'm calling the concrete conglomerate. It's not, I don't know what to call it, but that was the one that kept on failing on us at various places. So that's the one you've removed? Yes. We did that by hand last summer during COVID. And we were just gonna keep it at the natural because we had decided not to put a wall back up. And then we were just gonna do natural landscape down. And then as we were doing drainage, we decided against that. So the new wall is the stone or was that the new wall or the old wall? It's the old wall, I believe. Flat pieces of concrete, that's the old wall, right? They're stacked. You need to get closer to the microphone, guys. I don't think you can hear you. The flat pieces that it looks like concrete that were stacked, is that that's the old wall, correct? Yes. The new wall is the random stone, yeah. And then she said, I think originally when they first moved in, it was like a field stone wall, I think. Yeah, like a dry-laid wall with no mortar, yeah. Yeah, and it was just a really teeny little thing. It wasn't, it was falling apart. From your drawing, Caroline, it looks like this wall will go the entire width of your property. Yes. Is that true? Yeah. We had planned for a small area on the, what would be the east side. I think it had directions on the property. I think of, you know, left side. On the driveway side, we had planned for a small section so that we could have access with either a tractor or even just easier access with a lawn mower without having to use the neighbor's driveway. And you did this as part of a drainage project, right? For water coming off the hill? Yeah. Who was doing the work? Walker, thank you, I was on my point. Walker construction. Okay. Anyone have any other comments, questions or suggestions at this point? The only comment I would make is this is minimally visible from the street. So it's certainly more compatible with the rest of the stone walls in the area. Okay, then we can go through the criteria for the project. For new construction, consider to be compatible if the materials used possess a kind or type that are appropriate in the district. Interior selected shall either fit the neighborhood context of the proposed building in or reflect nature and use of the structure behind the house and around the corner of the house, the stone wall is acceptable. Proposed landscaping should be compatible with the neighborhood and the site on which the project's located acceptable. Location and appearance of all utilities, mechanical equipment, trash storage and fencing should be cited to minimize adverse visual impact or adequately and appropriately screened from public view acceptable. And lastly, landscaping, screening and site furnishings. Projects within the design review overly district and subject to landscaping requirements of section 3203 shall consider the following. Site furnishings, including fencing, seating, other types of site furniture visible from the street or side yard. And those landscaping obscure are undermined key architectural patterns or elements on historic buildings. And that's acceptable. All in favor of the retaining wall. Because yes. Martha says yes. Yes, yes. And Steve, yes. So the retaining wall is approved. Great, thank you so much. Sorry for my lateness. And do you want to describe the next step or you were Meredith? I got it. Yeah, and Carolyn, thank you for getting on. We'll send out the permit as soon as we can. There's no recommendations on the form that Steve is filling out, but we'll also email that to you so that you can sign it and then just get it back to us so we can have it for the file. Well, alternatively, are you gonna want us to mail you the permit or do you want to come in and pick it up? As silly as it sounds, please mail it to me. Okay, great. Then yes, I will email you that form. And then if you just sign it and send it back or you can also just confirm via email that you agree with what's on there and that'll work too. We just need something for the file. Perfect, thank you so much. You're welcome. Thank you very much for coming before the committee and good luck with your project. Thank you. We still don't have anybody from Main Street. So we will go and ask if everyone has looked at the meeting minutes from September 20th. I would move acceptance. I'll second that, please. All in favor of the September 20th minutes, speak your names. Eric. Martha. Liz. And Steve. So the minutes are approved. And does anyone have anything else to add at this point? Otherwise, our next meeting is October the 18th. And do I hear a motion to adjourn? I move to adjourn. This is Martha. All in favor of adjournment, speak your names, Eric. Martha. Liz. And Steve. So the meeting is adjourned. Thank you all for coming. Thank you, Steve. Thank you. Thank you. Bye now.