 Take apart the memory into different components, the descriptive memory and the non-descriptive memory. The descriptive memory is something you can tell it out about your name, about your year, and when were you born, what kind of thing you learn from the class, and to the non-descriptive one, it also can be divided into different, for example how you just learn to write a basic, you can not just describe it out, but you can do this, how you drive a car and also the emotional one and when something or someone just gets you angry or makes you happy, this kind of memory is non-descriptive one and also the descriptive one could even more divide it into different things, so different memory may have a different mechanism to encode them, to store them, the neural activity in the hippocampus, if you remember hippocampus is related to the memory and they perform this kind of experiment on the mice about the space memories, you remember the things along the way you go home and they find that the more the neuron firing, the more the higher the neuron activity, the more the mice remember this kind of place. Yeah, yeah. I know someone's opinion may contradict yours. Where's my friend Alan? It's all about your perspective, who are we and what is the nature of this reality? Nihao everybody, welcome to Simulation, I'm your host Alan Sokian. We are on site in the beautiful Beijing, China, we are at the Peking University School of Life Sciences, we are now going to be talking about encoding, storing and the retrieval of memory, we have Bohan Lee joining us on the show, hi Bohan. Hi, hi Alan. Thank you so much for coming on our show. Yeah, thank you too for interviewing me. I'm so excited for this conversation Bohan, we went together to the Forbidden City too, we were talking so much, I'm very excited for this, you were teaching me a lot for those who don't know Bohan's background, he's an undergraduate student at Peking University's Health Science Center, studying neuroscience with an interest in learning and memory, and you can find his links in the bio below. Bohan, let's start things off by talking to you about who you were when you were young, you were born in the Gansu province. Yeah, Gansu province, west place in China, west north, because Beijing is more to the east of China, yeah. And the city, actually the Gansu province is really poor and low in the economical, and because the environment is bad there and the lack of water, because water is everything to the creatures, yeah. And even the city when I was, where I was born, is actually did not exist before the 1980s, because why just people developed and established a city in just 30 or 40 years, because one mantle from there, the nickel, you know, the nickel is used to make the coin, the nickel, yeah, it's really, it was really rare in China before they find a nickel, such a mine in my city named Jinchang, because if you translate the Jinchang into English it's more like, it's a relative to the mantle, Jin means gold, yeah. So when they found that there was a nickel mine in my hometown and they just asked people, especially those with knowledge and young people would like to help the Gansu province to develop the city, to develop the northwest China, and someone just go there, and that's my grandparents, how they just get there. Interesting, so your grandparents went there as the city was developing because they found nickel, and they made a nickel mine, and they found that precious resource. And then how about, you know, who you were, how did you pick up science, your interests, and your fields? When I was at my elementary school, that's right, elementary school, I am not a good student because I don't like to do homework, even sometimes I just throw it away and go out to play, and also my father tried to push me to learn the mathematics, and I was just crying, my mom was very angry, thank you, Creamy and my father, don't you dare to try to push him to learn the mathematics, because every time he tried to push me to learn the mathematics, I just, and I'm not very happy, and yeah, sometimes I cry, but since I'm different when I just enter my middle school, everything seems to work out, seems to work out because I just get good grades at my middle school, and when I just first to learn about the chemistry, I was very interested in that from my middle school, yeah, about the second year of my middle school and chemistry, just I don't know why, but I can easily remember those compound structures, remember those reactions, yeah, and also the biology is one thing I'm also interested in at that time, but chemistry is the most one, most the first one, and it's the same thing at my high school, both by chemistry and the biology is the subject I loved, and actually my father is a physics teacher, but actually I hate physics, and I'm really really bad at physics, yeah. Interesting, so the moments of youth, this is actually really important for many different people, both watching as well as guests we've had on the show, there's these like pivotal moments when we're young where we have maybe a family member that's trying to influence us to do something, it can be both very good, but sometimes it can also be not the right path for the young person, so it's good that you ended up picking up this interest in chemistry, biology, fascination with it, so then what about when you were going from high school to picking university, how did that process happen? Just like most of the most of the college students just to enter the adult examination, the national adult examination, the Gaokao, yeah Gaokao, yeah, and if you get a grade and you could go to the university and the Peking University or the Tsinghua University is the most best university in China, top two university, and I really want to enter the Peking University because Peking University has more, it's more good at the science, mathematics, chemistry, physics or biology, but actually my grade is not that high enough to enter the biology, all the life science center or life science department, so I just have another option to enter the health science center or the medical school at Peking University and it's, it needs a little bit lower grade than when I enter here, so I just enter there and somehow I just find Yulong and enter his lab, his, his, yeah, just a thing. So then, okay, so while you're an undergraduate student, you're figuring out that okay, I really like neuroscience, I want to pursue the brain, you find Yulong in the lab and they're working neuroscience and now you're here all the time, I see you all year all the time. Yeah, yeah, actually I entered my college and I first, at the first year of my college I entered a lab studying the cancer, studying, studying the epigenetics, it's also very, it's also very good lab, but I also learned a little about psychology when I, as my first year, the half first year and it's the first time I get connected, I know about the psychology and really, you know, inspired me and how, oh, we can just think about things in this way and I just decided to major another, major another degree on the psychology one and but when I go deeper on the psychology, when I take more and more psychological classes, I started to question psychology sometimes cannot answer why they can, or we can describe it more a little bit superficial because I call psychology one, they don't go down to the neurons, they do not go down the cells, they do not go down the proteins, so I just transfer my interest from elsewhere to the neuroscience, that's how I just get into the neuroscience. And then why were you so interested with the neurons and the neurotransmission, the neural communication, how our brain works, why did you find this to be so interesting? Why did I find it so interesting? That's a good question, very interesting. Well, I need to say that the first time I get interested in the neuroscience or the psychology is because of the depression. It's not me, but someone else, yeah, and this is very bad experience to me, so I just decided to try to overcome the depression, the major depressive disorder. And actually, before I enter ULON's lab, I have already learned about the depression, but when I was trying to go down deeper, and I just can find, sometimes you go to the depression status because some kind of memory will affect you to become a depressive one. And so I just transferred my interest from the depression to the learning and memory, especially the memory. Yeah, when we see a friend or a family member or someone that's even in our vicinity, and we just see that they're a little bit more depressed, or maybe they have major depressive disorder, that it triggers us to want to know what's happening in their brain, what's happening in their life, and also how can we help them heal, how can we help them be healthier? Okay, so then now this has a lot to do with what has happened in their past that has made them feel this way, and then what is the exact neural structures in their brain and the neural communication in their brain that's causing them to feel that way. Some of normal neural communications or neural, some of normal in the neural network of their brain. And so then you decided that you wanted to tackle this big challenge of understanding the encoding, the storage, the retrieval, overall of learning and memory. This is very interesting because we look around at our world and we see a chair, and we wonder when did I learn this word chair? And how am I storing this word chair? And how do I recall this word? Because these chairs are different than if this chair was made of wood. But even though it's a different chair, it still uses the same word. Yeah, they have the same schema in our brain, the chair schema and really to the different wood chairs, iron chairs, high chairs, low chairs, different types of chairs. It's really also other words or other things have this schema in our brain, but how we store this schema, how we just encode it into our brain and how just we retrieval it back, recall it back, it's really not very clear at nowadays. Yes. So let's start going through some of the examples. You and I were, you were teaching me about these, yes? Two days? Two days ago. Two days ago, you were teaching me about these. You said, well, how do you think that we remember as a kid is something as important as 911 or the emergency phone number or like even your mom or your dad's name. You just remember these things because they're very important things. How do we store something that has that much importance? You know, maybe we ascribe the weight of the variable as level 90, very important out of one to 100. But maybe when I learn someone's name that I might not meet again, maybe they're like the server at the restaurant or something, I maybe only ascribe level five to that and that way it doesn't get encoded in store as high priority. So teach us about what you're thinking about this post. Okay, and actually I can now just teach, I can tell something I know. Yes. Okay. People just try to take apart the memory into different components. The descriptive memory and the non-descriptive memory. The descriptive memory is something you can tell it out about your name, about your year and when were you born, what kind of thing you learn from the class and to the non-descriptive one, it also can be divided into different, for example, how you just learn to write a basic, you can not just describe it out, but you can do this, how you drive a car and also the emotional one and or when something or someone just gets you angry or gets you make you happy, this kind of memory is a non-descriptive one and also the descriptive one could even more divided into different things. So different memory may have a different mechanism to encode them, to store them, and we just talk about, okay, I will a little bit talk about the emotional one non-descriptive because I learned something from the, I learned something about the depression. The depression is some kind of, if you're in the definition of DSM-5, they will call this emotional disorder because they're just, if you rank someone's activity or energy from 0 to 100, most people are in the range around 50, but someone just go down to the 10 to the 5th grade and they will never, it's hard for them to get them back. That's a depressive state and definitely the people's personality or how just the environment affects them has a big influence on the depression status, but also the things they experienced also has a lot of influence on this. If someone is, if it's susceptible to depression, if the personality is not strong enough and also he experienced something really bad when this combined together, he or she would maybe get in trouble, get into the depression. Yeah, it's just from a very big picture to say, and if people, I saw the interview you did for ULU and he talked about some FDA approved drugs like serotonin, SSRI, SNRI, any kind of drugs, they are trying to target the monoamine pathway in our brain because some people in the last century believed it is a dysregulation of monoamine in our brain, finally cause us to be a depressive one. And yeah, and also it indicates, maybe the theory is not right, but it indicates something or some networks, not all of the networks, but someone related to the monoamine network may go wrong, may go wrong in our brain and we just, you know, behave the like, I just want to die, I want to suicide, I feel nothing about happy, yeah, just this kind of thing. And also if you know about a ketamine, it's some kind of drug, if you abuse it, but also ketamine, people find now ketamine can treat depression. FDA just approved the ketamine as a therapeutic one this year, just this year, and before the ketamine was approved around 30 years, there are no drugs approved to treat the depression. Yeah, ketamine is really potent or potential compound, and someone is just working on it, try to make it more safer with no side effects on the psychopath or some other side effects. Yeah, and we've interviewed people that have been psychedelic psychotherapists and they're currently using ketamine for healing people with depression, PTSD, all different types of it's just it's so good to see more and more discoveries like that for people to be able to heal. And it comes with an assisted psychotherapist, so someone that can help me before, during, and after with the integration and the healing. You mentioned, I found this really interesting, so is it evident that our brain will encode and store memory that is descriptive versus nondescriptive? So if I store a Bohan Lee differently, it's a descriptive one, I store it differently, then I store something like how I felt when we were in the Forbidden City. Because my feeling when I was there is nondescriptive? Yeah, there will be a connection because there will be a connection between my name and the feeling you feel in the Forbidden City because it involves the involution trying to push us into some emotional animal because you don't have to remember everything, but you have to remember something important, especially related to the danger or related to the happiness. So if you add some emotional element into your memory process, you may memory it better than normal things. For example, you are just trying to recite, for me, I'm just trying to recite words. It's really boring with no emotion, even the negative emotion in this, but if I... Like for me, it's a because it's a very important one for me. It took a while, maybe me repeating it 30 times, but for me it's an important one that I interview picking university professors because I think it's one of those phrases that can explain to someone why I'm in China. Yeah, and very quickly. And also, like you were saying, if we associate when we were in the Forbidden City, if I associate the experience maybe with the museum of clocks, and I associate it with us five that were there, and then I associate it with maybe the smell of, or the smell of the bean soup. Yeah, or the roast duck, right, or that we had afterward, and so maybe the more, because this is the memory champions, we've had memory champions on our show before, and they say that if we add senses, like smell, touch, taste, and then we can encode and store more effectively. Yeah, it's very similar to, even the same thing, because if you add something more emotional element or some more clues, memory clues, to encode one thing, you can remember it, remember it more, more better. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so then let's do, let's keep going on the example, because I think this one's, this one's pretty interesting too. What's the difference? Because this is probably one of the most studied creatures, the Drosophila, the fruit fly. Okay, so the amount of neurons in Drosophila is much, much lower. The amount of what we think is like conscious experience in the Drosophila is much, much lower, what we think, and so what would be our idea of some of the differences with how we encode, store, and retrieve memory versus how the fruit fly does? Okay, the difference between how the mammalians are, mammalian animals, like human allies, and in order to store or encode a memory difference from the Drosophila. I would say the Drosophila is very, on the evolution of trees, very, very low at ranking. And for the mammalian, for the human, for the mice, it's already gets much higher on the evolution of trees. So for the survival of this kind of insect, like Drosophila, or some other insect, they may not have the consciousness, you just mentioned, they may not have some kind of a conscious experience, they may not can process something in their brain. And they just need to, you know, if they just smell some kind of odor, and when someone just a shock, electric shock to him, and he will just this kind, this one, this neuron, this neuron, they fire together and they're wired together. And they know, okay, this order is indication of danger. So they just to attach them together together. Okay, then people, some people will say this kind of, this is a repetitive memory. But I would, I would more, I would more like to see some kind of reflex, because memory in our brain, we just try, we can, we can retrieve the memory and we can process on the memory, just like we are watching a movie. But for the Drosophila, I'm not so sure whether they could do the same thing like us. We, yeah. And this is a part of the difference between the memory mechanism between Drosophila and human being. And also from the structure level, the Drosophila brain is very, very small, has much, much lower number of neurons. But and for the human brain or the mice brain, they have already developed or involved some kind of brain structure, especially designed to remember things. For example, hippocampus, people believed hippocampus is related to the long term memory. And for the amygdala, people believed amygdala is associated with or related to the emotional memory. Yeah, but for Drosophila, their brain structure is different from us. Yeah, that's, that's also might be the difference between how human, between the human and the Drosophila's memory. But someone, someone told me, also, Yulong told me, told us that the cell's function may be different from one species to another species, just like we have this kind of a, this kind of a brain architecture and the Drosophila don't have this one. But the molecular, the protein, their function might be really conservative, but really be conserved through the involution, through the involution. So we can also learn about how just the Drosophila form a memory. I told you the order or the repetitive memory. Yeah, we can learn its molecular mechanism. And we can find whether there is a same molecular, same molecule, same, sorry, molecule, same molecule or same protein, or the homolog of this type of molecule in the human brain. And we can just visit, try to visit how this kind of protein or molecule works in a human brain or in the mice brain. And this might just, might provide some indicates how it just provides some clues. Yes. So, so then it's, although it may be that the just brain structure itself is different, the molecular and protein dynamics may, may be closer to similar. Yeah, as people has already published a lot of works doing on the Drosophila or the theatricant trying to identify how this kind of protein or how this kind of a molecule works. And because theatricant or the Drosophila is a very robust genetic machine, sorry, genetic tool to study, because they grow fast, they product a lot. For the mice, you know, they just give about five to 10 babies at a time. And the baby needs more, needs about, needs about three months to grow into an adult one. So, if you just do the such kind of screening on the mice, it will take you, it will take you a lot of time. And yeah, and also the mice brain is very complex than the theatricant neurons. Yeah, so you can just do this kind of screening on the theatricant trying to identify the molecular mechanism and put it back into the mice. Okay. So, is it fair to say that when we take a piece of a banana and put it next to a fruit fly versus we take a piece of a banana and put it next to the hungry human that there's some similar molecular and protein might be some similar molecular mechanism? Especially because it's food, it's source of food, which is to sustain the body. So, it's like something's being triggered within us that says if you eat, you live longer. And that could be the same thing with even all of the other evolutionary creatures. If eat, live longer. So, that could be some sort of very ancient biological feature. Yeah. And even doesn't even need the nervous system to leave in the bacteria. Yeah. Yeah. How about when we talk about LTP, long term potentiation, teach us about what this is. Okay. And LTP is some kind of some kind of neuronal communication between two neurons, even between three neurons. Actually, it's first was discovered on the hippocampus slices, cultured slices. Because in the 1950s, one patient called the patient HM, he got the damage on his hippocampus. If I remember it right, something just stack into his brain and make his hippocampus damage. Or if it's another story version that he has epilepsy or Cesar in his hippocampus region, so the doctors just remove the hippocampus from him and to treat the epilepsy or Cesar. And from his hippocampus was destroyed. He just cannot form long term memory, just like if you meet him at now, you say, Hi, HM, I'm Alan. And after you just, he will shake hands with you. He will introduce who he is. And if you just walk away and back in five minutes later, you do the same thing, he will say, Hi, I'm HM. He will do the same thing. He cannot form this kind of long term memory. But he could also remember who he is. And what did he do when he was a child, when he was young, and something in the past. So people just learn about that hippocampus is associated or related to the form of the, to the form of long term memory. So, yeah. And also memory sometimes lives through our entire life. People believe their memory is something can last long. And yeah. So when people first say, do the hippocampus slices and record the LTP from the neurons, they believe that this is a formation of memory. Yeah. And how just the LTP is induced. If you remember, you can put a electrode at the C3 region. It has a C3 region neurons, has a connection with C1 region neurons. And if you do not do anything, just put a recorded electrode at the C1 neuron. And you stimulate C3 neuron one pulse. And you can just record a normal signal. Because they have connections. So if you trigger the upstream and downstream, we will have a reflex, we will have a response actually. But if you stimulate the C3, the upstream with 300 hertz frequency of electric shock or something. Which is abnormal for the brain. Which does not exist in the brain. But people can do this on the slices. And you can record a larger signal, which really, which compared to the normal one. It's larger. And even it can last for three weeks on the culture neuron. If the culture, the slices alive culture, it's kind of a signal increase. So people just named this kind of long term potentiation. Also, there is a long term depression. If your long term depression is the same thing, but opposite on the, it goes down or goes, it goes up or goes down, long term depression, this kind of long term potentiation. Yeah. At that time, people do a lot of this kind of LTP on the aplasia. Some kind of a C-snail. Yeah. C-snails with no, with no rocks. Without the shell. Yeah. Without the shell. Yeah. And yeah. So then it's possible that our memory has a lot to do with how much stimulation we, our nervous system associates with that initial stimuli. So if we give it lots of stimulation or lots of importance to encode, there could be the mechanism of long term potentiation that gets activated so that there's a greater amount of storage and a greater amount of then ability to retrieve or recall that versus if it's, if it's supposed to be a high level memory that we're supposed to remember. Maybe I do something that takes me a lot of time that I'm supposed to get a good reward for. But when I get the reward, instead of having the response with long term potentiation that's higher, I don't have that. That could be associated with depression. It's really not associated with reward or not. It's a time dependence thing. Hmm. Teach us more. Yeah. What does that mean? Okay. LTP, time dependent thing. Yeah. I'm wondering if it has to do with how fast we get the response. How fast are the responses? Within, within a million seconds. And if really fast. Really fast. And if it's delayed or not present, then the problem with some sort of mental issue can happen. That might be, but actually I'm not so sure whether there's evidence in the cases. Yeah. In the LTP, and if you remember, you stimulate the pre-synaptic neural at about 300 hertz. And also, you stimulate the post-summitic one as a time dependent manner. Okay. You know, so firstly, stimulate this and then this one will stimulate. There will form some kind of connection and the long term potentiation. But if you first stimulate the post-synaptic one and then stimulate the pre-synaptic one, in an opposite time manner, there will be a LTP. Yeah. Also, I forgot to introduce that the formation, the requirement to form LTP also needs two neurons to work together. Sorry, I forgot to introduce it. There is a proverb in the Neuron science, work together, work together, wire together. Yeah. So, stimulate this and then stimulate this one. There will have an LTP formation, but if you first stimulate the post one and then stimulate the pre-synaptic one, there is some kind of an R-match and the signal will just go down and form an LTD depression. This kind of depression means if you stimulate the pre-synaptic one and it will release less neurotransmitters and you will recant less lower signal. And also, the potential, long term potential, Asian one is if you just stimulate the pre-synaptic neuron as just a normal, you know, normal stress and it will release more such kind of neurotransmitters like glutamate than it should be. And so, if more neurotransmitters than glutamate and it will trigger a larger signal on the post one, so it is a time-dependent one, time and time. Okay, so people just try to know also this kind of a rule that time-dependent people believe we first learn something and also something to us in a time-dependent this kind of manner. This kind of long-term LTP just developed and we remember this. But actually, there is a lot of evidence arguing about LTP is not the final formation of memory. Yes, because LTP has some many many properties like it is sometimes it's not that robust and might disappear, but the memory is still there and also it is hard to simulate this kind of LTP in a neural network if you do this and to support it is the formation of memory, I think. So there are also a lot of hypothesis or theories like ingram cell also any other hypothesis. The ingram means the ingram, E-N-G-R-A-M means the material, the physical or the chemical material bearing the memory. This is what created in the 1920s about 100 100 years ago. So people now find that they actually have some kind of a thing like the ingram and to use this word. As in the actual memory of a chair might be literally located inside of neurons? Inside of neurons or inside the neuron communications people don't know. Inside the neural network of maybe like a thousand of them? Or yeah. And that might have to take the activation of that neural network in order to remember chairs. And then would it maybe then be something along the lines of my association to objects or things or people or whatever it may be events emotions feelings that are maybe more vivid they have a greater weight a greater importance for me to remember might activate potentially more neurons. Actually there is a science paper published recently indicates it is might be the same the thing you told might be the same thing they record the neural activity in the hippocampus if I if you remember hippocampus is related to the memory and they perform this kind of experiment on the mice about the space memory yeah space memories you remember the things along the way you go home yeah yeah and they find that the more the neuron firing the more the higher the neuron activity the more the the mice remember this kind of place yeah yeah but it needs a yeah yeah yeah we can maybe then do things like create a memory palace with the with the different yeah different places encode it encodes this kind of association association between exactly and that has helped me a lot the tedx talk I gave in san francisco I created a memory palace with really big vivid things that helped me walk through my points that I needed to recite in the talk so it's quite possible that depending on how much weight we ascribe to the thing that we're in inputting a stimuli and how many emotions associations senses that we put to that stimuli that we can potentially be more in control of how it's encoded and stored in our brain and then be able to recall it better maybe we can activate more neurons and a little bit more neural networks activated for the recall to be prioritized more bohan what would you want to see happen with our understanding of encoding storage and retrieval of memory learning and memory where could this go where it could help us with our health with eradicating disease yeah there are some kind of kasiotri like PTSD anxiety depression and even the bipolar disorder have some kind of this kind of emotional or the descriptive component in involved in this kind of diseases so especially the PTSD if we can eliminate the bad memory we can just either they treat treat the PTSD and for the also their Alzheimer's disease the first thing that people are suffering is they are starting to losing their memory so if we can just finally if one day if one day we can finally decode in the whole memory system we can record their memory into some into the computer or and then finally just like in the movie we take a chip in our brain and we just storage memory in that and we don't have to worry about forgetting yeah anything else but it's long as much to take a long long long effort to achieve that one but actually the reason to the purpose or the reason to the how the memory research can help us is to um actually uh just to try to decode this whole system and figure out what can how it works and finally we can just talk about how the application so if you don't if we don't know how they works how could we just apply this to treat disease yes yes okay so we understand better how learning and memory works then we can better tackle things like PTSD anxiety depression we can maybe go to the exact source of the neural network which right now is happening a little bit with electrical magnetic and ultrasound stimulation and so that can be used for healing and then we also have this long-term potential where we can do things like take the way that we encode memory and can we create a similar an analog on a computer chip of what we're perceiving and recall it anytime these ideas of the neuro prosthetics is very interesting and maybe we can get there it's important for us to be morally and ethically evolved as we get there yeah that's what I think it's really it's a matter yes yes what would you say is uh an ideal neuroscience tool maybe like 50 or 100 years down the line what would be your ideal version of a tool that enables us to solve the brain the most ideal ideal tool is to be the god and you say what happens in the cell what happens in three sounds what happens in the neural networks to be the god but actually it is not possible for us to be the god and so we just try to first from different different levels from the protein levels to the neuron levels to the network levels there are different levels indeed needs different type of tools and for for the for the for the actually for the cell levels yeah if we don't have already I think we don't have already told you we have opal genetic tools we have chemical genetic tools to activate or inhibit the neurons in a very efficient and controllable way yes and also we have our observation tools like our grab sensors or the GABA sniffer developed by other groups we can record how neuron how these neurons work in the physiology called condition and but all this kind of you know this kind of tools whatever the perturbating one or observation one they need to dig out dig into the into the brain and bring a little damage to the brain and cannot apply on the human for for therapeutic purpose and for the most ideal tool I think it is less invasiveness and the most controllable is also the one also the thing we need to concern about yeah and the time and the spatial resolution is also yeah things so if we can just monitor or perturbating uh perturbate a neuron one thing or neuron in our brain without just to dig a hole on the on the brain and this is finally the ideal list of tools but yeah it may takes effort to develop someone just have already developed the magnetic magnet the magnetic kind of tool to control the drug release in our brain so they don't need to you know dig into the dig into the brain and give light to stimulate the neurons suggested to oppose the brain magnet to fire out yes and control the drug release yes someone has already developed this kind of tool but far from to apply it more efficiently or in the human yeah yeah I like that that the the ideal tool will be ones that give us godlike powers over the brain what about inspiring more people around the world to work together how can we best do that uh how do we just inspire people yeah um actually um I haven't considered this question before this time um let me think inspire because the science sometimes the science is really hard to push if especially when you are standing on the cutting edge of the science and one of the member of a china china science academy one of the member told me it's really painful or it's painstaking in pushing the new pushing the science and the first time I met him he just told me this only one sentence and yeah and for the science one I think it's it's if someone's really interested in to do the research to push the science age uh those uh you know those his his fellow workers his peers they can communicate with with each other on some kind of a meeting or conference around the world and they just try to communicate their their thoughts they communicate uh how they how they study the brain what kind of mechanism or what kind of uh what kind of you know the hypothesis they hold and this kind of sometimes called a conflict or yeah just kind of thing and will will just inspire those two and they will oh wow we we can start about things in this way and that guy is also we can we can learn things through this kind of tool like yeah so as for other other people around the world someone for because for example workers or the other I'm not actually don't know how to inspire them but for the neuroscience or science researchers I think communicates a good way and yeah if or especially when they find something they can work together someone just if there is a black box someone just decode the the left part of the black box and someone just decode the right part if they combine together yes they could finally decode this yes black box yes yes what would be a skill that young people should know as we go into the technology age one skill actually uh I am not good at computation uh how to write a program and how to do yeah how to write the codes and actually I think also the math the the mathematics is a fundamental of the basic to learn or or to learn the computation so I would suggest to try to um make your mathematics and or the physical knowledge solid and try to learn about how to you know in code how to write the computation compute computational computational codes how to write a program and especially especially when you are trying to enter the biological area because uh this kind of um X tag you said this kind of this kind of guys really people who are desiring for because they both know the biological thing also know the computational thing yes they can combine them together because you know the when we're trying to go down deeper on the biological areas information just go just go explode and more and more information just engage in and for us for us the biological researchers we don't know how to handle this kind of information but if you know about the computation science and you can oh I can establish or write some kind of program to find or to you know to to use this kind of information to try to find some thing in that there must be a lot of you know code yes this kind of information but if you don't know computer yes yes yes interesting so yeah our ability to see the world as information that we can mine and understand but we need to know math computational science to be able to mine that and then how about this big human experiment that we're all a part of what do you think is the meaning of the human experiment human yeah I can tell what others what others would say the meaning of their life that form for me it's to actually I'm really interested in the science and I actually want to and also I'm trying to push push the push the science age a little bit further maybe 10 feet long but that's enough and for me it's to trying to find something really can help help the society or even just help the researchers is okay we can find something new and we stand on this new knowledge and trying to go down deeper yeah that's the meaning of my life I think I just want to the simple thing I just want to try to dig out the science yeah and how about do you think we have free will or do you think there's determinism what do you think yeah at the first class class of my general psychology the teacher taught me that the psychology is some kind of subject learning the determined determination yeah because they just have an assumption that one some kind of you know behavior or something will lead to some kind of specific consequence so also his behavior is affected by the upper behavior the upper just like a chain conduction this kind of effect yeah someone's behavior affect another and another do another behavior to another one and yeah but for me I would like to hold the free will thing yeah for me yeah I would hold the free will thing because determination is kind of you know stubborn and it's just like our fate or destiny is already be written and sometimes if someone just hold that kind of belief especially when they are in trouble or you know poor conditions they will say oh my life is just like this I will not try to struggle because the god has already judged me versus breaking out of it and it's achieving more in life yeah yeah I will hold the free will and free will thing I would try to yeah what about what do you think is the most beautiful thing in the world especially especially and exactly it is our brain no matter no matter the human brain or the animal brain or the neurons this kind of you know communication is really beautiful just sell and sell have that kind of a specific unique communication and with multiple kind of this communication we form the network and we link with multiple of this network we finally got a brain and which just just about one kilograms or even you know smaller than that and we can just compete with the super computer super computers even occupy the whole space in this brain the super computer super computers and if we compete together to learn something new we will definitely win this game because you know the computer also the artificial intelligence they are just they have already established a mature network before 10 years ago and there's nothing not not there's no progress on the your neural network but only the ability of computer to do this kind of computation just to progress so the computer could could learn faster but actually only a three-year-old child can have the have already the ability to defeat the computer so just how our brain achieve this with such a little you know little weight and very small energy consumption yeah yeah it's really a beautiful thing in the world yeah all of that answer bohan thank you very much for coming on to our show thank you for teaching us thank you for interviewing me and actually this is my first time to face the video face the you know being on the video and actually that my first time to have such a about one hour you know conversation with a foreigner having done this before this is great these these firsts that we have together like one hour conversation with four it's very important that one's very important around the world for people to have go when you go to those countries dive into long conversations with the people there know how to ask good questions that's very important but also take the risks in life you know get on to camera one time try writing a piece sometime you do a little bit of science sometime try taking these risks incrementally in life i like that a lot bohan very proud of you you did great thanks everyone for tuning in we greatly appreciate it we'd love to hear your thoughts in the comments below on that episode let us know what you're thinking also have more conversations with your friends families co-workers people online about encoding storage and retrieval of memory about the importance of studying this about the importance of the analogies and how we see these things in our world have more conversations about a check out the links below to bohan's work check that all of that out also check out our links below the simulation you can support us help us grow help the artists entrepreneurs organizations around the world grow you can find our patreon paypal cryptocrypto see links below and also go and build the future everyone manifest your dreams into the world we love you very much thank you for tuning in and we'll see you soon peace good job bohan