 Welcome to Pookey Ponders, the podcast where I explore big questions with brilliant people. I'm Pookey Nightsmith and I'm your host. Today's question is, is autism a blessing or a curse? And I'm in conversation with Pete Warmbay. Hi, I'm Pete Warmbay. I'm an autistic teacher, parent and writer, increasingly. And obviously I'm most most available on Twitter. That's probably where most people know me from because, you know, I do a lot of my autistics on there. And we are talking today about whether autism is a blessing or a curse. But let's let's start with the with with the Twitter. So that's where I've met you. That's my kind of happy comfortable place as well. And you getting quite a lot of people following and interacting with you on Twitter now and hearing your kind of autistic message. So how how did you sort of come to start using that as a medium? It was accidental, to be honest with you. I've been on Twitter for years and years and years since about 2009, I think. But I only ever really moved around the education circles, you know, kind of get involved in the debates there, which anyone watching is always quite an exciting thing to do. And that was the case probably about 10 years. Then I got diagnosed in 2017. And I started dabbling a little bit. You know, I wrote a few bits and bobs. I remember I did a thread about Christmas at one point. I think that was in 2017 itself, but it did quite well. But then I just stopped and moved on to other things. But then in it was about a year ago, I just started writing these threads of basically, I just came up with this kind of concept of autism and X, you know, whatever it might be. And I use these threads to kind of explore how autism had clearly affected me. It was to be honest, it was like self reflective, but with an audience. I'm not quite sure why I needed that, but I kind of did just to kind of get the ideas out. So I was doing things like I remember one of the earliest ones was autism and holidays. That was one of the first ones I did. So, you know, exploring how autism interacts with going on holiday abroad, you know, going on holiday with parents when you're a teenager, that kind of thing. I did autism and I remember the autism and Pokemon. That was that was quite a good one just to try to get get to grips. It was like my way of trying to work out how autism fit for me in my life. And and people like them, you know, people were sharing them and commenting on them and followers started to go up. And I mean, I was on about three thousand, I think, this time last year. And I think now I'm over 20,000, you know, which is which is mad really. But but yeah, there's just something about them, I think people enjoyed. I think I think I can be a bit brutally honest. You know, I don't tend to leave anything out and I think people quite like that. But in the process, you know, I feel like I figured out, certainly, I figured out autism for myself, you know, I kind of know how it works for me now. How did you come to be diagnosed and see a diagnosis in 2017? So as a fully fledged adult? Well, yeah, it was, well, it was all really about the birth of, as I call the child, because I try and keep it as private as possible. I don't want people to know anything about them. But yeah, after they were born, things like, you know, the sleepless sleepless nights and the worry and the stress and all those kind of extra bonus things that you get when you become a parent. They also had quite a lot and things were very difficult. And I think I came down with, you know, basically depression at one point. But I didn't know why, you know, me being me, I wanted to understand, you know, what the issue was and why it was that, you know, all the parents didn't necessarily have the issues that I had. Sorry about that, it's a car game, but the worst thing I think was the loss of personal time, you know, loss of kind of downtime. You know, as soon as a child's in the mix, you just don't really get anything like as much of that as you're used to having. And I noticed that and that made me wonder and it made me think. And I was doing things like CBT and I was I was working, you know, I was getting some treatment from the NHS, you know, the CAMS sort of stuff. And it was OK, it was, you know, semi useful. But, you know, in the counselling and in the talking, you know, it just became more and more clear that there was something else going on underneath. So I started researching, you know, possibilities like ADHD and autism and things like that. And and, yeah, just autism just seemed to fit. So I looked into it more. I spoke to people who knew me to see what they thought about it. And I went to the doctors and they, to be fair, were very, very good. You know, I got I got a referral instantly, which I understand is not common at all. You know, so I think between asking the GP and being diagnosed was probably about four or five months. Wow, that's quick. It is. Yeah, I don't know whether there was just a, you know, hardly anyone in which year getting diagnosed at that point. I have no idea why it was so fast, but it was it was very rapid. So, yeah, it was sorry. No, I was just going to say, it was important to you kind of getting that label. It sounds like you were doing quite a lot of soul searching and trying to make sense of yourself. It was, yes. Yeah. I think it's a common thing amongst a lot of autistic people because of how it affects you and how you how you have to sort of deal with the complexities of life with autism in a way that can be upsetting for a lot of other people, you know, like, let it, you know, you let people down because you can't face the social stuff. You you have to go and hide away in a quiet room for a bit. And that upsets, you know, there's a lot of kind of social guilt, I think, around autism, you know, and I think a lot of the time that can that can sort of crystallise as autistic people feeling very, very strongly that they're bad people. You know, there's something wrong with them in a very bad, nasty way, like they're rude or they're lazy or they're obnoxious or they're whatever negative attitude you want to use, really. And I think that's quite pervasive. So for me, it was it was it freed me a little bit from those feelings of kind of guilt that I've had over my life of being a bit flaky and a bit unreliable and all the rest of it, which was nice. You know, I mean, it hasn't didn't work entirely. You know, I still have those feelings, but but it helped a little bit. And it also just helped me understand why. You know, why my life has gone the way it has, you know, what do you mean? Like what? Well, I did a thread about this ages ago, but I don't think this is true of all autistic people, obviously, disclaiming the things true of all autistic people. You know, I know that. But I think for quite a few autistic people that things like long term planning and kind of, you know, working towards an eventual goal is quite tricky, you know, I think I can be quite a difficult thing to to manage when you're autistic. And that's certainly been my case throughout my entire life. I've just kind of floated through life like a balloon being blown wherever everything wants to put me. You know, I can't say with any certainty at any point, apart from possibly now where I am actually doing something I want to do that I'm actually going about and doing things that I genuinely wanted to pursue. You know, I just feel like I've been busted around and just like blown around by by the whims of the world around me. You know, for example, I mean, I'm a teacher, but I never wanted to be a teacher. You know, I think I'm relatively good at it, but it wasn't my it wasn't an aim. I just kind of ended up doing it as far as you can end up doing something like that. That's quite a big thing to just sort of end up doing. Honestly, it's as close as I can describe it. I remember at the time I was working in an office for this first aid company in Lincoln and and I wasn't very happy. You know, the pay wasn't very good. And I noticed the teachers were being back here. Teachers were being paid quite a lot to train. I guess it was a shortage. And I was just like, OK, I could do that. You know, my dad's a teacher or was a teacher is reside now. So I thought I could do that. So I just signed up and, you know, it was it was there was no kind of no thought process really apart from just, oh, money. OK, that would do off I went, you know, and just kind of to see where everything would take me. Just, you know, kind of born by the current of the world. Do you think it's teaching a job that is made easier or harder because you're autistic? Harder. It must be. It must be. I mean, like I say, I've done OK in the job, you know, I like to think I make a bit of a difference. But, you know, the positives of autism. So, for example, I don't know, like, you know, my subject knowledge is good because I've kind of absorbed everything so much over the years. You know, you know, I've been kind of hyper fixated on a lot of aspects, you know, English teachers, so hyper fixation on the books that I teach and that kind of thing, that helps a great deal. But when it comes down to the, you know, the day to day, like the anxiety of every class coming in, you know, never, never going away at all, you know, literally before every single class in this five a day, I have the same level of anxiety as I had back in the first year of teaching. You know, I don't want to do this, this is scary. And then they come in and it's OK, you know, and I get on with it, you know, and then they go and then it all happens again. You know, and for the longest time, I just kind of accepted. I just thought that's how it was. I thought that's what teachers did. You know, no one likes being in front of a class. I just rolled with that because, you know, in all things, I always just assumed that whatever ratio I had was shared by everybody. Now, of course, I know it's not really the case. So, yeah, that you must be exhausted by the end of term. I mean, I know teachers are generally always, but to feel that level of anxiety before every class every day must be wearing is. And then you got the masking on top of that, you know, because when you're in front of a class, I mean, I have ways of doing when you're in front of a class, there's no way to decompress. You know, if if if you get stressed or if you feel like, you know, things are starting to kind of cycle, you know, sensory issues or whatever like that, you know, and you've got 30 kids in there like looking at you, you have to stay on top of it. You know, I mean, I developed my one kind of mechanism for avoiding, you know, that game too bad was was to, you know, get the kids working on something and then sit down at my desk and look at something nice on Wikipedia. You know, something that interested me like I'd be on. And, you know, the kids at sea and they'd see, you know, what's Mr. Wombie doing on Google Maps? You know, they'd ask me, I'd say, Sir, what are you doing? I was looking, you know, I'm just I'm just tracing old train lines, you know, because, you know, that that calmed me, you know, tremendously and it really helped. But then, of course, I mean, obviously, it's very likely that colleagues might see this, but that leads to guilt. Then what if I get found out? What if people find out the during lessons? You know, I'm spending time on Google Earth looking at the old, you know, the old remnants of Industry of Britain. I'd like to think there wouldn't be too cross about that, but still, you know, on how the children are doing, isn't it? I mean, that's it. If the children are focused and they're achieving, then. Yes, are they actually learning anything? But yeah, I mean, generally speaking, I've been I've done pretty well, but but yeah, it's it's that kind of constant feeling of, you know, you're masking, you're pretending, you're acting. Yeah, I mean, by the end of the day, I'm exhausted. By the end of the term, I'm like, you know, the walking dead. Yeah, yeah. And has the period of kind of lockdown been good for you? Have you been teaching from home or how's that worked out for you? I did for a time, but that makes everyone back in June, wherever it was. And I wasn't, you know, mentally robust enough, so I had to take a bit of time off. But, you know, I did I did do my best. But, you know, it's been difficult. It has been difficult lockdown. I like to be able to get around and about. You know, I mean, I can entertain myself, you know, very well, very easily. You know, quite happy being alone, but, you know, being being in the house with the family for the whole time, you know, I mean, the four-year-old child, you know, no school, no summer school, no clubs, nothing like that. Just constantly having to deal with the parents around all the time. I felt very sorry for them. And yeah, it's it's been tough. It has been tough, you know, the kind of lack of ability to just, you know, again, get that downtime, a bit of quiet time, you know, to to try to decompress a little bit. And you're very open, obviously, about your autism online. Is that something you're open about with your colleagues and your students as well? Are they aware of your diagnosis? Yeah, yeah, I mean, the colleagues as much as I can, you know, I mean, that they don't really ask too much, to be honest. But students, I talk openly to them, you know, I'm absolutely, you know, no holds barred, you know, I'll share a lot with them, especially obviously students who are autistic, who I teach quite a few of, really, that there are a couple of year 11 students last year. So these are kids who have obviously been affected by the grades. But I think I had five or six autistic kids in my year 11 class. Honestly, you know, so five or six out of maybe 15 or so, it was a quite small set. And honestly, sometimes we would just be, well, they were the bottom set, as they call them, you know, bless them. But we fought that, you know, but there were times where the six of us with autism in that room would just be chatting about it. And the rest of the class, you know, just for a huge amount of time, but the rest of us would just be listening, you know, and just kind of just trying to normalise it. You know, I'd be talking to them, you know, I'd say something like, oh, yeah, and isn't it horrible when such and such happens? And we'd have just this kind of little chat and the rest of the class were great. You know, they were really quite interested. You know, I don't see the point in hiding that kind of thing at all. You know, it's like, you know, autism is so common, so prevalent. It'd be a little bit like trying to hide that you were blonde or something, you know, how can you do that? You've just got to know, you know, it is what it is. And how did your students, you know, have you found they've generally approached this idea about, you know, the question for the episode was about whether autism is a blessing or a curse. I mean, what would your students take on it? Be do you think what's your take on it? I think my students, it would depend. And as always, it would depend on the individual. I mean, thinking about all the ones that I can. I think you would probably get a 50 50 split. You really would. I can I can see it. I can see that happening that there are a lot who are happy to kind of lean into it, you know, and not necessarily enjoy it, but, you know, as near as you can enjoy it, you know, make the most of it and and enjoy the kind of special specials that, you know, enjoy the the skills and the traits that can have a really positive effect. But then there were others that hate it, you know, absolutely hate it. Often the boys, to be honest, which is probably not what you'd expect, actually. Yeah, but for some of the boys, you know, who just want to fit in with the other lads, you know, especially the boys who are who aren't naturally. I don't know how to describe it, like, aren't naturally kind of lonesome and geeky in themselves. I mean, back at school, I was lonesome and geeky. So I think it worked perfectly for me. It was fine. But for those autistic boys who who want to be in a like a little gang and want to be a bit naughty and want to do the teenage boy experience, if you know what I mean, I think they resent it a little bit because it gets in the way and it makes things difficult. But, you know, there's this stereotype that all autistic boys, especially, you know, the stereotype of of, you know, geeky, plain Pokemon and all the rest of it. And it's just not the case. You know, there are plenty of them who are, you know, they're cool. You know, for once, the best of words. But they they they're not the same. You know, they're still not the same as other kids. And obviously, as everyone knows in school, if you're not the same, then you're other and you're you're out there, you know, and that could lead to problems. So you get quite a few autistic children, I think, who who feel very angry about that, you know, they want to fit in. They want to be like their mates and they know they're not. And there's a bit of bitterness there, I think. Do you think school is a particularly kind of challenging time if you're autistic, because that whole thing of wanting to fit in is that's tough, isn't it? Because you can be an adult who is different and individual and that's often celebrated, isn't it? But as a child, that's that's harder, isn't it? Yeah, you've got to have a very strong personality, I think, as a kid to to to kind of embrace being different. I mean, you know, plenty of children like that do exist. I mean, I teach a fair few of them, you know, who are quite happy to be different and are quite happy to stand out. But you need a particular kind of mindset for that, I think. And it's not particularly common. I think I think school is a nightmare for autistic people. Teachers, teachers and students, I think that, you know, the whole system is one of those that's, I mean, let's face it, education hasn't really changed very much over the last God knows how many centuries, you know, I mean, obviously more people do it now. But the actual kind of basic idea behind education, you know, you do it from the age of four to the age of 18. You learn these particular subjects. You go to lessons, you know, your lessons are less than different teachers. That whole kind of structure and system that's been set up over, you know, centuries now, probably, just doesn't work for autistic people. It really doesn't. You know, I think, you know, we've made the best of a best of a bad job and we've tried to cope and, you know, autistic people throughout the ages will have done their best and they will have tried their hardest to kind of move along with this kind of mechanism that school is. But it's not it's not really built for us at all. You know, it's a really challenging environment, and apart from the sort of social construct of it, just the kind of the physical environment as a sensory experience, I go to schools in my work and find myself thinking, how did I manage this as a child? And then, of course, I reflect, well, managing is a big word. And I was, you know, an anxious, depressed, anorexic, who self-harmed and was often suicidal. So maybe I wasn't really managing now. Came out with decent grades, but yeah, a bit of a mess. But it's really it's a tough environment and presumably, you know, for you as a teacher as well. Yeah, I mean, it's OK for me because, you know, apart from my COVID strikes, I can just sit in my room, you know, and the classes come to me and that's fine. You know, that gives me a little bit of kind of ownership. I mean, yeah, my classroom, as you can probably imagine, has got some Lego in it. Not a distracting amount, although, at times. But, you know, it's mine. It's my space and I feel relatively safe there. But, you know, if you're an autistic child, you know, you let's imagine that you, you know, you get settled into a lesson that you really like and, you know, bonus of all bonuses, they're looking at a topic that you're really interested in. OK, so let's say for argument, let's say we do in English and you're really into Victorian literature and that's what you're doing. So for an hour, you're like completely immersed and you love it. And then the bell rings and you've got to get up and you've got to say bye to all of that and go and do PE. You know, you've got no choice. You've got to do it. If you don't do it, you're going to be in considerable trouble. Not that that puts a lot of autistic children off. I mean, you know, when you think about how how frequently autistic kids are excluded and things like that for, you know, bad behavior, as they call it. When often it's just a case of self-defense, you know, and self-preservation. But, you know, this poor hypothetical kid, you know, who loves English, you know, forced to, you know, drop it at a moment's notice and go and do it to completely other totally different subject, one they don't maybe don't like, one that's completely different skill set, one that they're probably not very good at, one they're not interested in. And then after another hour, it's another change, you know, and bang, you're doing something else again. And it's it's not something I could, I would want to do again. You know, if if and I did have the chance of doing this, actually, a while back, we were encouraged to kind of shadow a child. Sounds kind of sinister. Anyway, it was, you know, we just kind of had to go around the school like and see it from their eyes, you know, kind of experience the school day from the eyes of the child to remind us, because obviously for some of us, it's been a very long time. And I hated it, absolutely hated it. You know, the only time I've done that as an adult was when I was a governor at a special school and, of course, special schools operate quite differently. And it was it was OK, still challenging. But yeah, I think very different than the idea of, you know, every hour you're moving on to something different. I think, yes. So you declined the opportunity. Well, I did it for a bit. But yeah, it was it was an unpleasant experience. Yeah, I'd never do it again. So tell me about Lego then. So yeah, just just going for all the autistic stereotypes here. You like Lego. I do. And to my to my credit, I like Lego trains, too. So. Oh, well done. Oh, good autistic you. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, Lego, what can I say? It's I'm currently I'm writing a book about this, actually. I mean, it's only just been finalised, but it's about special interests, hyper fixations. And I'm going to have a whole chapter, obviously, on on Lego. So it's difficult to get my thoughts in order about, you know, what it is about the stuff. It's the it's almost something to do with the tactility, like the way it feels and the way it looks. Yeah, I can remember when I was being diagnosed. I mean, this must have been the moment where the person diagnosed me went, right? Yep, stamp, order, because because they said, you know, why do you like Lego? And I went into a kind of flight of fancy about, you know, I don't know how familiar you are, but when you buy a Lego, it's all in the little bags. Yes, yes, yes. And exactly, that's that. Sorry, I love Lego, too. As an adult, I haven't gone there. But you're making me get my children need to learn Lego. I need Lego in my life. Well, you know, you get those bags and you feel, you know, that they're heavy because it's good quality stuff. You know, it's good. It's well made. You know, there's something nice about well made things. But, you know, the colors and there's all the little translucent pieces. And honestly, it's like gems. They're like little little jewels, you know, just all different colors, all different shapes, all very shiny and new and exciting. And not only that, but, you know, when you take them all out of the bag, these little jewels end up creating something bigger and better. It's incredible, really. And do you always follow the instructions or do you freestyle? I do both. You know, if I buy a set, you know, like these ones here, I'll follow the instructions. But then with any spare bits that I've got or if I decide I don't like a set anymore and I just kind of dismantle it and use it for other things, I'll do my own thing. And I design sets online as well. There's kind of programs on the internet where you can create kind of electronic versions of sets, which is quite nice, you know, basically design your own sets. There was one that I put on Twitter quite a lot recently, this Tudor hotel thing that I'd made. You know, and you can try and get Lego to actually make them. You know, if you get enough kind of votes, then they actually go ahead and release them as a set. So, you know, that's the end. Cool. See, I always struggled with the freestyle Lego thing. Like, I love following the instructions, but I found it hard just presented with it to know, yeah, what to do, where to go with that. Yeah, where do you start? I need to have a very clear idea in my mind before I start. Otherwise, I just kind of sit there staring at it, thinking, I don't know, I have to be thinking, right, I want to build a, you know, I don't know, the station or something. And then I'm away. But if I haven't got that kind of fundamental idea, then I'm just lost. And it's a brilliant thing as well, isn't it? I've done quite a lot of work with teaching, learning support stuff and people like that about using the kind of basics of kind of Lego therapy and Lego as a, you know, sort of therapeutic tool, both in terms of the tactile and the building, but also the stories you can tell with it. And I mean, there's lots and lots of different ways that you can kind of go there with, isn't it? But even just in its most basic form, it is, you say, it feels nice, doesn't it? And it does, yeah. Yeah, that's what tactile, that tactile, and it hasn't changed. I think lots of things feel like they've changed over time, but Lego feels exactly the same now as it did, you know, when we were five, six, seven years old. It does. It does. I mean, you know, there's new elements, new bricks and things, but they all have the same, like I said, the same texture, the same feel to them, the same weight, you know, they haven't deteriorated in quality or anything like that, like some things do. Yeah. Yeah. And also, of course, it lasts forever. You know, I mean, I've got Lego from when I was a kid that's still perfectly usable. Yeah, absolutely. I want to ask you about a tweet you tweeted yesterday and what was kind of behind this. So you said, put your hand up if getting diagnosed with autism made you, for whatever reason, more autistic. And I just wondered, what did you mean by that and where were you going with that and was that your experience? Yeah, I think what I was getting at was the fact that, you know, you find out that you are autistic and I think a very common kind of outcome of that is you realize how much you've been pretending or your life and you sort of start to just feel a bit more maybe comfortable in the role if you like. You know, you kind of just settle into it a little bit and I think in doing that, the mask slips and you are more likely, for example, I don't know, like little things like to say no to things you know, you don't want to do or to be quite open about why it is you need to leave the room and just little things like that. You know, so everything becomes a little bit more obvious, I guess, because you're diagnosed, because you're comfortable, well, you know, increasingly comfortable with who you actually are and you feel validated too. So you feel like you can now say no because it's like, well, you know, professional persons told me that, you know, I don't have to do this kind of thing anymore. And I think, but you know, that was only half of it, of course, you know, the other half of the tweet was, you know, the impact of that then on your relationships because, you know, I guess I was getting at the fact that, you know, that level of sort of leaning into your diagnosis is probably relatively inevitable, but then what that does to your relationships with especially neurotypical people around you. You said, yeah, does it irritate people? Yeah, yeah, and I think, because I think it does. And certainly from the replies that I got, it seemed to be quite a common thing. You know, that people were like, actually, yes. Yeah, you know, I did suddenly start acting more autistic and that really wound people up. You know, they didn't like it, you know, because for whatever reason, and you could spend probably hours looking into this, years even, neurotypical people aren't very happy or comfortable around openly autistic people. Gotta be careful, you know, I don't want to demonize or vilify or anything like that because it's not fair, but it does feel that way sometimes. Yeah, I've generally found that as long as I'm open and honest that people are really helpful and will support me. But then I guess I'm mainly thinking about going into lots of new situations all the time. And when I say, you know, I'm speaking at your event, thanks so much for having me. I need a room I can quietly go to at lunchtime and please don't make me eat with everyone, kind of thing, because I'm autistic and then people bend over backwards to help. But I think, yeah, that's probably a different experience when you're going as a visiting keynote speaker than, you know, in kind of day-to-day life. I found one of the things that I found more challenging is just a bit of disbelief, I guess. And maybe, oh, but you can't be autistic because of X, because of Y, because of Z and you kind of find yourself wanting to defend yourself and go, but you've got no idea how hard I had to work to look normal in that situation. But I'm giving up now. I don't even, I just let it roll. It's not where my energy is. No, no, I mean, because you end up, you know, when that happens and you start defending yourself and you start kind of going into, but, but, but, but, you know, I'm exhausted. It's only eight o'clock in the morning. I'm actually going to start a shower because it just sounds like you're moaning. You know, you sound like you're whinging, you're whining, you're being negative and they switch off and they don't care. Yeah, it's a bit, it can be a bit of a downer, to be honest, you know. I mean, I do like to think that if a non-autistic person could just somehow, you know, get a window inside the mind of an autistic person, just for a moment and experience what life is like, that they'd be blown away by it. You know, the sensory things, you know, the, I mean, it's obviously again, different for everybody, but, but, you know, just general commonalities like the sensory issues, the kind of everything being very intense and extreme, the feeling of anxiety that's been created by, you know, a lifetime of failed communications, you know, fear of social situations. I think it'll be overwhelming. I mean, I guess entering anyone's head for any amount of time would always be overwhelming, but I think it'll be particularly difficult to handle, you know, and I think it could, I think that's why, you know, some of these, you know, organisations like NAS that try to do these videos and things like that, that try to sort of illustrate what autism's like. It's a very valuable thing. I mean, I haven't seen many that really nail it yet, but, you know, some are quite good, you know, and I think they're really quite valuable. Did you ever see the show of the, oh no, the curious instant of the dog in the nighttime? I read the book. I haven't seen the... So the show, the book I loved and the show I especially loved. I took my husband, we went, actually when I was in hospital and we went for a trip out, which was a really big thing, but the thing that was so amazing about it was, I mean, the whole thing was great, but in particular there's one scene where he's at a train station and I can't go near trains at all. I find them completely overwhelming for a whole variety of things, but one of the things I find particularly difficult is how overwhelming big, busy train stations are and just the way it was depicted in this show, I was suddenly able to just say to my husband, that's what it's like, that's exactly what it's like for me. And it was, I don't remember, it's something they'd done with kind of light and sound and it was quite overbearing as an audience member, but yeah, it explained it in a way I never could. Yes, yeah. I think that kind of thing is fantastic, you know, and I think the more autistic people that you get, you know, working on things like that and having input and things like that, you know, just to really nail it down precisely. Yeah, that's exactly how it was. I remember the video that the NAS did about the child in the shopping centre. I don't know whether you've seen that one. They're just kind of walking through a normal shopping centre, but we're seeing it from that point of view. And the camera keeps cutting to all the different things that are making a noise or that are kind of, you know, kind of busily occurring. You know, there's like a perfume stand and they're spraying perfume and you know, there's this idea, obviously, very strong smell. There's the photo booth with the flash going. There's the music, there's the guys, you know, it's a couple of people shouting and talking and it's all too much for the poor kid who ends up having a meltdown in the middle of the store. And it's quite moving, it's quite emotional really because it's, you know, that is exactly how it is. But we just need more of that. You know, we need more autistic television, more autistic film, you know, just to try to... I think one of the most important things is just to try to, you know, it's like you like seeing yourself represented on TV, don't you? Everyone likes that. And you know, and as a white male, you know, white cis male, then obviously I'm in Candyland. You're a labourer, yeah. I'm represented everywhere. But there's, you know, but autism isn't, you know, there's that one little kind of gap there that I feel would be so beneficial for the autistic community if there was more representation out there. Just to make us feel more validated and more like we are actually really a part of the Earth and its people. Rather than a spread of the world. Not small in number. What do you feel about, like... See, I've had, one of the challenges I have with diagnosis, hey, I felt quite stupid to finally be diagnosed without having any clue that I might be autistic. Having worked with autistic people and knowing about it as a condition for many, many years hadn't occurred to me, that might be my story. But also having, you know, things like having worked with a special school, which supported children who were, you know, very much more challenged by their autism than I am. I find it hard sometimes to own that label. You know, when actually you're able to hold down a job and do normal things and have a family and talk, it can be difficult. It feels wrong almost that there's that, you know, we just have one big bucket and we all sit in it. And there are days, you know, I have days when I can't talk, I can't move, I can't do anything, but they're very, very, very few and far between. And how do you feel about that? Is it okay to kind of own that label fully and do we need more representation from kind of non-verbal autistic people or? I think we definitely do. The thing is, there's quite a lot of non-verbal autistic people out there who are, you know, trying very hard to, you know, make themselves known, you know, blogs and things like that. But, you know, because their number is obviously slightly lower than, you know, the rest of the autistic community. It's very difficult for them to be noticed, you know, above the kind of, above. I mean, I try when I can, you know, to kind of raise them, but I don't do it enough. Don't do anything like as much as I ought to. There are Twitter accounts out there who do their very best. There's a South African lady, Tanya, I think her name is, who does a lot of good work on that, you know, kind of trying to elevate these voices. But, you know, so yeah, there needs to be a more kind of varied representation of autism, too. But, you know, there is only one representation of autism in the media anyway at the moment, really. And that's kind of the Sheldon character. You know, the sort of comic relief, awkward, cold, you know, geeky almost to a fault. You know, that kind of very, very lazy stereotype is pretty much, you know, I mean, obviously I'm aware there are other autistic characters out there, but, you know, in the general population, I think that that is pretty much the idea of what autism is in the media, you know, maybe with the sprinkling of Rain Man on the side or something for older people. You know, when what we really need is people to be, I mean, I only watched, I've only seen a little bit of She-Ra, for example. You heard She-Ra through the child. It's a cartoon, you know, it's mostly female characters, kind of battling some evil threat. But there's one character in that who's very definitely coded autistic and was coded autistic purposefully. And I think there are autistic rights on the team that put effort into this, think of him as entractor. And she's into technology and that kind of thing, but she's a very, very different sort of autistic character. She's very enthusiastic, very excitable, really passionate about things, like very different to Sheldon, very different to who else is there, the kind of typical characters. And I think that's brilliant. I think that's fantastic. And we need a lot more of that, because otherwise there was just this kind of one avenue of, you know, one trope, if you like, of autism in the media and it's just no good. Oh, well, when it comes to owning the label, I mean, obviously all you need to do is spend a day on Twitter to know there's a lot of argument about this kind of thing, you know, you know, high functioning labels, those kind of things, you know, and I've always been on the side of if you're autistic, it doesn't matter how your autism manifests, you are autistic and that will have challenges. And even though those challenges might be hidden and might be, you know, kind of easily masked over, it's still there and it's still very, very difficult. I think, but you're right, it is difficult because, you know, it's such a wide range of experiences all kind of plonked under this one label that, you know, it can get a bit unwieldy. But, you know, when you think about, you know, I mean, humanity is quite vague and enormous and different in all of its different styles. That's true. We still talk about human rights, don't we, you know, there's like a fundamental set of things that should always be the case. So, yeah, I think it's important for autistic people, even if they feel like their phone is, you know, like they're intruding on the world because, you know, yet they've got a job or they can speak in public or whatever. I think it's important to still own it because there will be things. I mean, I'm gonna finish off this, for example, and I've been talking away and all the rest of it, but after this is done, I'm gonna be done for the day, you know, this is gonna wipe me out. And I think, you know, unless we own that and we, you know, and we share that experience, autistic people are still gonna be, you know, have prejudice against us, you know. I think we need to be very open about the challenges and the difficulties. I think that's important, actually, isn't it? That's something I've tried to be a bit more honest about in my own experience, not just with autism, but just more generally, there's a whole range of different challenges. Like quite how it's time there, I don't know, but I think quite often people only see the public-facing bit, don't they? And if what they see is you standing up on stage and, you know, looking good and well put together, and that's the day you've washed your hair and you're presenting well, then that's great. But if they don't see the bit where then, you know, for me, I'll have to go off and climb or literally spend time just on my own or just not manage for a day or two. Like you, it's, you know, it's a bit of a roller coaster and people only see the bits that you allow them to see. So that's about how brave we should be in sharing those bits. Although, also autism comes in many very different guises, do you think there are any kind of universally helpful things that the world and other people can do to help to support? If I could wave the magic wand, I think the one thing that I would ask, you know, for non-autistic people to have for autistic people is just automatic belief. You know, automatic, oh, OK, well, you just told me that you're autistic. I'm going to believe that. I'm not going to question it either openly or in my own mind. I'm just going to go, oh, OK, and then work with that information because it is terrifying how little that happens. You know, it really is. And I think that that is behind some of the most difficult stuff that we have to deal with. You know, if you say that you've got a broken leg and that's not a great analogy, I understand that, you know, because obviously broken legs are a thing that happened to you and, you know, they get better. But just as a forsake of argument, just because obviously it has effects that makes your life more difficult. If you tell somebody you've got a broken leg, then there's kind of instant, you know, everyone just moves mountains to help you, don't they? You know, it's just a completely different thing. You say to somebody, for example, that you're depressed just to bring mental health into it. And that's a whole new world, then, of, oh, OK, I don't know how to deal with that. Well, you know, why have you shared that information? We didn't need to know that. Like it's a taboo, it's a dirty thing, aren't it? You say you're autistic. And, yeah, like you said, the first thing you're most likely to get, especially if you've just been on stage or especially if you're a teacher or you're, I don't know, you're adept at masking. The first thing you'll get is, no, you're not. Don't be daft. And almost like that's a compliment, isn't it? Yes, yes, yes. Don't be so hard on yourself. You know, don't put yourself down like that. It's not putting myself down. I'm telling you that I am this thing. It's like, you know, saying, oh, I've got a beard. Oh, don't put yourself down like that. Don't be so rough on yourself. It's not, you know, you can barely see it. You can barely see it. That's not the point. It's really, really strange that that is the first, but I think it is. It's a kind of a really, it's like a misfiring of the human desire to make people feel better about themselves. It's like, it's coming from a good place. You know, we all, when, you know, if somebody says, oh, I feel really down, you know, God, blah, blah, and you say, oh, don't worry, it'll be fine. You know, that's our automatic reaction. We try to make people feel better and happier. It just misfires with autism more than pretty much anything else, I think. ADHD possibly. But, you know, with autism, it just seems to trigger this response of, oh, no. No, don't be so, you know, don't feel so bad. You know, like it is a really negative thing, like, you know. And it isn't, you know, it really isn't. I mean, if it wasn't for autism, you know, I wouldn't have any of the hobbies or the interests that I have. You know, I wouldn't have the brain I've got. I wouldn't have the skills I've got. You know, it's completely, you know, intertwined with everything that makes me me. And it might be a bit rough sometimes, but it's, you know, it's not something to, you know, you don't want condolences for it. No, no, absolutely not. What do you think is the best thing about autism? For me personally, the best thing is just the way my brain works, which I, oops, sounds like it. Which I think I can ascribe a lot of it to autism. I mean, some of it's probably not something that might just be, you know, how my brain works, you know, without autism. But, you know, things like, I don't know, it's very hard to describe how things work in your own head, but it, like visual imagination for me is very, very, very strong. You know, really quite potent. And that's not the same for all autistic people. I mean, you know, affentasia and things like that can be like the exact opposite. But for me, autism seems to have kind of manifested in just this ability to, you know, hold in my head entire places that aren't even real, you know. And I've spoken to a few other autistic people who've got this, you know, and we almost use them as a kind of escape hatch to run away into, you know, to... I'm a bit jealous of that. I know, I would be. But, you know, it's that, I think, you know, is behind some of my love of certain things like Lego, for example, making my own little world. Minecraft, you know, the video game was a huge thing for that. I mean, I've spent eight years now on the same world on Minecraft, just making a country, basically. With mountain ranges and cities and towns and oceans and, you know, all the rest of it. You know, and it's just all, but it's all here. You know, I can walk around it in my own head. I don't actually need the game to enter it. You know, I remember, I know exactly how it looks, and it's all in here. And, yeah, I ascribe that to autism, I think. You know, because it's such a strong kind of almost powerful ability. You know, it's certainly a bit different, I think. So, I mean, I can't know for sure, but I certainly say that I pegged that one up to autism, I think. Well, yeah, no, absolutely. And as you say, it sounds like it's a common experience with some other autistic people, and I think that ability to kind of hyper-focus and maintain interest over a long period of time as well is certainly something that many of us share. I always ask people to kind of share a closing thought, and unless you had a specific idea, I wondered if you might share some words of reassurance or advice or guidance for anyone who might be newer to a diagnosis, either for themselves or perhaps for a child. What thoughts you would share with them? I guess, you know, if you're new to a diagnosis for yourself or someone near you, I think the most useful thing you can probably do is, is listen, listen to all the autistic people. Not because they've got all the answers, or because they're somehow, you know, guardians of the knowledge or anything like that, but just because, yeah, there's a lot of us who are really willing to talk, and it might just be that some of the things that we say or write or communicate in whatever way are useful, you know, and I think, you know, there's this amazing resource online, on Twitter and elsewhere, on Facebook as well, although I don't really, I don't go there because it's Facebook, where, you know, there are people sharing their experiences, and it's like a goldmine of information and insight, and I think, you know, you wouldn't wanna waste that. I think make the most of that. You might not necessarily agree with it all. It might not all apply, you know, it might be different experiences of autism, but it's all there, and it's all open to be read and to be listened to, and, you know, and I think, I think that could have a huge impact.