 started. Welcome and thank you for joining us today. They were going to be talking about empowering leaders, improving culture, and hopefully minimizing burnout. Also about how these three things can work together to further each other. And we'd like to start by talking a little bit about our backgrounds. Establish some cred. We're from Arizona State University. ASU has about a hundred thousand students and it's one of the largest public universities in the country, if not the largest. It depends on how you do the counting. This is a little snippet of the university charter that I like to read real quickly, but I think it really summarizes well what ASU is about and our culture, which obviously influences as leaders. ASU is a comprehensive public research university, measured not by whom it excludes, but by whom it includes and how they succeed. Advancing research and discovery of public value and assuming fundamental responsibility for the economics, social, cultural, and overall health of the communities it serves. So from that I think you can see some alignment with Drupal and its values as well as ASU's values. We measure based on who we include and the results in our community. So yeah, beyond just a technical fit for ASU, which we use a lot of Drupal, it's also a community fit for us, values fit. Actually I want to take kind of a step back real quick and I guess introduce ourselves. My name is Daniel Garcia Mont and this is my colleague Michael Samuelson. One of things I guess ASU has become known for in the last few years is about being the most innovative school, last three years running. The US News and World Report. Yeah, ranking. We have strong leadership at ASU and we're tackling big ideas, embrace and change. That's another Drupal fit I think. So as I mentioned, this is Michael Samuelson. Yeah. I'm Michael Samuelson. I am a senior systems analyst, aka back-end Drupal developer for the university technology offices, applications and design team. And some of the technical highlights, though this isn't a technical presentation, oh yeah, it's your picture there, isn't it? That's why you're laughing. Technical highlights of what I've done against establishing some credibility. I've worked on a solar-based, Drupal-based hybrid decoupled sort of app for our faculty, student and staff. Thank you. Directory. Also lots of course registration systems built in Drupal that integrate with LMS, learning management system solutions and spin-up courses based on that. And currently, and this is kind of an outgrowth of some of what I've learned through the course of going through burnout and the process of writing this presentation. I'm exploring the intersection of opportunities with Drupal, Alexa, Chatbot's voice and accessibility. And it's an exciting new territory. Also, as far as community contributions, this is probably the highlight of what I've contributed back to Drupal. I don't, you probably can't read it there near the back, but I saw the need and I filled it. A few years back, I noticed that the pirate module was lacking a captain hook. So I supplied it. It actually, it actually serves a purpose. So yeah, that was that was kind of my shining moment in contrib. And also something I do is I coach youth robotics. Is anybody here familiar with first robotics? Yes. First robotics is awesome. They can always use mentors and programming. You don't have to know the technology they're they're working with. You can learn along with the kids. It's it's something I encourage looking into. First inspires.org. I always have to put in a plug for that. My daughter got me into it, but I've stayed around even after she graduated out of the program. My slide. Some people say the best leaders are the best leadership leaders, but I'm not. My style is unintrusive, almost as if they're not there. So as I said, I'm Daniel, I'm actually the manager. I'm Michael's manager. So I'm here mostly to take credit for all the hard work that Michael's going to do in this presentation. Most of my professional life has been at ASU. I've been under the math this morning and I've been doing web development work for about the last 23 years, which is more than a half of my life if you go all the way back to when I was a student worker. Six years as a professional as an individual contributor, doing web development as admin, mostly for Drupal. And two years as a lead and about almost three years as a manager. I'm I would say I'm a recovering Drupal developer. As I mentioned, I've worked both in operations and development groups. I currently lead a team with 11 Drupal developers, plus two recovering developers, not including myself. One of them actually is specializing in web accessibility and the other one is in user experience design. So the following presentation is based on real life events. So in other words, it's anecdotal. But even though it's anecdotal, we believe that our experience will resonate with you, especially if you're a developer or if you manage developers. And we hope that the lessons we've taken from those experiences will be of value. And that's manager speak. How many of you here made it to the presentation on Tuesday? Good. Dries actually touched on one of the topics we'll be covering when he announced the Drupal community principles. And when he highlighted principle number six, choose to lead. Which I thought was neat. We didn't have any foreknowledge of that. It's just pure coincidence. But I really found it neat how we as a community are aligning. And that's more manager speak. And since this is a presentation about empowering leaders, I'm going to empower Michael to run through the rest of it. So that was about us. But a little quick segment on you. Who of you are from the freelance or agency world? Okay. And how many from enterprise like academia, I would say, you know, large sized organizations. Okay, we've got about a 50-50 split. And that's great. We have something for everybody. So, you know, we're going to cover a framework to understand burnout, avoid it, hopefully deal with it. If you came here for the leadership, you're going to get leadership too. And it ties right in with avoiding burnout. So a little bit more about me. And then I'm going to kind of shut up about me and we're going to start talking about burnout. As a developer, we have this notion of the rock star developer who comes in. And when I think of rock star, I think guitar solo. That's what pops into my mind. Someone noodling out there, really going to town, trashing hotel rooms. And then they leave either the studio or the hotel room and then somebody has to come in and put things back together or record the rhythm section along with the click track, you know, and really put things together. Quite often that's a person who is given the sheet music. And, you know, they execute on that. And for the longest time, that's how I have thought of myself as a developer. It's like, you know, give me the sheet music, give me the requirements. I'm here for how we're going to get this done. What didn't really matter much to me. And so that was something I had imposed upon myself. But it also was a personality fit for myself. You know, and my position title is Senior Systems Analyst. And I think, you know, Disciplined and Regimented, Kenna is something that goes along with that title and probably makes me a good systems analyst. But it doesn't necessarily describe a rock star. So my story of burnout, it happened for a lot of little reasons. And I don't really plan on going into them very much. You know, I could talk about how I work remote 100% of the time, even though I work for Arizona State University, I live in Idaho. So other than two weeks out of the year when I go down to Tempe to visit, I'm in a house with me and my Chihuahua in my miniature working away. But I could also go into, you know, feeling like I'd plateaued and I wasn't seeing new challenges. But those are my problems. They're not necessarily your problems and probably doesn't matter to you. I think you probably know what your problems are or you can take the time to figure them out. So what I really want to do here is to provide a framework for understanding burnout and how to avoid it. You know, as a developer, I know that the best frameworks provide structure, direction, and detail, yet they don't have so much opinion that they get in the way. They point us in the direction and they equip us, but they don't prescribe. So there's this story that I've heard. Some of you may have heard it as well. It's one of those things that gets passed around like, you know, we swallow six spiders while we're sleeping over the course of our lives. That's sort of a, you know, on average, sort of a thing, which somewhere I heard was actually not true. It was like a test that, you know, some intelligence agency put that out there to see how that would spread virally way back in the day. But so there's this other story, though, about how to train a circus flea. And the way it goes is, you know, you don't want them to jump out of the container that you have for them at the circus. And there's other stories, but this story goes that you take the flea and you put it in a jar and you screw your lid on, and that flea that can normally jump very high quickly learns that it's going to bump its head if it jumps that high. So it learns to jump below the lid. And then you can take the lid off and dump it in the circus and it's never going to jump higher than where that lid was. And, you know, I like that even if it isn't true because it is true in the sense that it describes habituation. You know, we have lots of lids that either are imposed upon us or we impose upon ourselves. They may be based on our fears. They may be based on what have you. You know, you can fill it in. So, you know, essentially habituation holds your whole self back. And you're not, you're putting yourself in a position to experience burnout, right? If you're not expressing your full self. So, here's, we're starting to get to the meat now. This is part one of the framework. L-E-D. And don't think light, think lead. A dull, gray, toxic metal, right? L, a lack of efficiency. That could be a sense of lacking efficiency. It doesn't have to be actual lack of efficiency, right? Just the sense of hopelessness or, you know, what am I doing here? This is day in and day out. I'm squashing these bugs. There's always more bugs, right? Or it could be exhaustion. Just feeling tired. Or disowning. You know, this is not owning the problem or choosing not to solve it or feeling trapped. You know, basically not owning the solution. And I think this is one that kind of opens the door to why leadership is important in avoiding burnout. Because if you don't feel like you can solve the problem or you're not going to lead, if you have a lid screwed on there and you're not going to try and solve the problem, you can experience burnout. So, it's a handy little mnemonic with a visual of lead metal, so hopefully it's memorable. So, I went through a period where I was feeling a lot of burnout over a year ago. And whenever I would get that feeling in a particularly bad way, I'd do what anybody would do. I'd go to the Oracle of Delphi and ask, you know, how do I deal with burnout? Or how do I recover from burnout? And you know what I learned? Not a whole lot. I got a lot of blog posts on sites that also are full of life hacks and things like that. So, you know, it was very much popular psychology sorts of answers, things like recharge your batteries or go for a walk, take breaks. Great, yeah. I can continue bailing water out of the boat the rest of my life. I want to know how to fix the leak. So, one day when I'm going to Google, I had the idea, hey, you know, I'm going to add peer review to my search. How do I deal with burnout? Peer reviewed. Let's get some actual academic understanding here. And that cracked the world wide open for me. You know who gets burned out? I'll give one person a guess. Who gets burned out? Like, it's a big problem. A career field. Other than developers. Teachers. Doctors. Physicians. And they're also pretty good at science. So, there's some good information out there on doctors dealing with burnout. And burnout in a doctor, like with disowning and exhaustion and having that feeling of I don't care how this turns out. I'm not invested in this. That's not a good thing. So, yeah, they also suffer from something called compassion fatigue. There's literature on that. And I would say that any of you who've spent any amount of time in an issue queue just solving user reported bugs for a couple weeks straight knows what compassion fatigue gets. One last story before we jump off from doctors and start talking about what I learned. My wife hates it when I tell this story. But one time I was at the doctor and I was getting my, you know, talking to the doctor and he wanted to have my blood drawn to find out, you know, to look at the results and see, you know, diagnose the problem. And I looked over at my wife and I said, oh my gosh, that's just like when I ask operations for the logs because I want to figure out what's going wrong in production. And I don't have access to it. He just wants to read the logs. I said, wow, that means like what I do is like what a doctor does. And then I thought, oh crud. He doesn't know either. And then my wife looked at me and she said, yeah, if you get your job wrong, nobody dies. And I said, well, they might. So I talked about this before, you know, the old song, the metaphor of I'm burned out. My batteries are low. I've got to recharge my batteries. I hate this metaphor. And this is the common metaphor for being burned out. What happens when you have, let's say your child has a toy, a talking doll and the batteries get low on that thing? First it's going to start talking creepy for a little while. That's maybe the disowning happening. But then it's just going to stop talking. It's done. It's inert. It becomes an object. And okay, yeah, that describes being burned out a little bit, but it's just descriptive. It doesn't give us any way to really figure out how to help the situation. The metaphor I like is bank accounts. This is one that I came across in a couple places in the literature about doctors and burnout. One of the things I like about the bank account metaphor is unlike with batteries, you're not just drawing from one. You can have multiple bank accounts. And the way it's broken out here, I have it, again, this is part two of the framework for dealing with burnout. It's pep. See how this works out? It's pretty nice. And that's what you're trying to get back is pep. The first P is physical. Your physical account. How do you feel? Then there is your emotional, social account. And then you have your purposeful or meaningful account. I mean it's kind of the classic mind, body, spirit breakdown, essentially. I don't have them in that order. Another reason why I like the bank account metaphor is unlike the metaphor of batteries, when your battery runs out, it just stops, right? With a bank account, when one account gets low, what do you do? You transfer money in from another account. If you're feeling emotionally burned out or emotionally overdrawn, you can still function. You can still show up at work. You can still do your job. You just might start to see you're having to pull out of your physical reserves. Maybe you're sick more often. You're pulling out of your sense of purpose there, right? It's a network of things that are all tied together. And if you pull one down, there's some adjacency there and it pulls the others down. It's a net, right? Or if you lift one up, you can pull the others up as well. The third reason I like the bank account metaphor is it gives us some interventions. I think that's kind of your doctor speak for how to solve stuff. Right? And there's two ways to intervene with burnout using this framework. One is to make deposits. The other is to change your spending. So how do you make deposits? Well, physically you know that. Right? And this is the stuff. A lot of this stuff is kind of the things that you see in the pop psychology, but it's workable and it's not just simplistic. You can see that it's a, you know, there's multiple dimensions here. So physically, eat healthy, sleep, exercise, emotionally, take breaks if you're somebody who tends to work eight hours straight like I do, or, you know, socially, join a club, you know, get out, meet people, work on your family relationships, put down your phone, that sort of thing. Purposeful, meaningful, sudden intention at the beginning of the day to find the, that's why I do this job moments. Right? You know, maybe you're stuck in an issue queue and it's driving you crazy, but what you really love to do is solve problems. Well, there's problems here, you're maybe not framing it right. So, right, make deposits, invest in yourself essentially. And reducing spending. This is the other intervention. Right? And change your narrative, your personal narrative. You kind of have a little rabbit trail here. I could have done a whole presentation on personal narrative. You know, it's the story you tell yourself about your life and what you're doing, what you're going through. It has a huge impact on you. You don't always recognize it, but you know, sometimes we cast ourselves in the role of the victim or the survivor or the hero. Right? And it has an impact on what we do. One of the things I've learned and what I have loved about coaching robotics, kids in robotics is that the challenges that they face and they work on are very similar to those that we work on in our jobs. And the challenges that we face, it's really served as kind of this meta-analysis for me to see how teams work and how leaders are born and how technical, complex problems can be solved and how people who are bashful in the face of a challenge can rise to it. And so I've taken from that and realized, you know, that of a coach and the coach is the voice that supports and helps people to become their best self. And what I've taken from that personal narrative-wise is to be my own coach. And that inner voice that I have should sound more like a coach and less like a critical person. Anyways, we're off the rabbit trail. If you found that stuff interesting, you might consider it to be called the inner game of tennis. I'm not into tennis. I love this book. I read it and then I listened to it on tape multiple times. It's from the 70s, slightly dated, but it's the book that launched the sports psychology trend. But so back to reducing spending, right? You can reframe problems. Sorry about the gold side. Back there in the back. I'll read these off. Communicate with leadership about your challenges or the needs you face. Seek a change in your responsibilities in work or in life. Reward yourself in your organization. You could delegate or collaborate. You can affect change to reduce those circumstances that are draining on you. You could start the conversation. I did. In my organization, I asked Daniel, hey, I've been learning some about burnout. Can I talk about it to the team? I brought it in. It was a great conversation. There were, I think, people on our team that felt like, oh, you can talk about this stuff. You know, sometimes people don't want to, right? You might have a culture where like any sign of struggle is difficult to talk about. But there's nothing wrong with that. I mean, we struggle every day in our jobs. And then, you know, you could look at reducing spending by figuring out what works for you with work life balance, work life separation, work life alignment, whatever works for you. I'm not going to say there's one right way there. But I do want to point out that all of these in gold have something to do with another theme in this presentation. And that's leadership. So I'm going to talk about that in just a moment. But first, the question as a manager, what can you do? It depends. A few years ago I came across the description of the servant-leader model. Is anyone here familiar with that? I found it really interesting and really resonated with me. It's the idea that your team doesn't work for you as the manager or director or the leader. You work for the team. Your job is to make sure that the team succeeds as an organization and also at the individual level. You're there to help your teammates succeed. And in order to do that you have to know your team. You have to build a rapport. You have to build trust and create the right conditions so that they feel comfortable coming to you, being open with you. And so what you will do will depend on the individual and their specific set of circumstances. So for example I had a colleague who I won't name to protect this privacy who it was about a year ago came to me because he was feeling burnt out. Right? Now this individual you know he's I was very lucky that he's a great troubleshooter. So he had gone through the process of trying to troubleshoot himself and what was going on and he's also a self-leader. So I remember in talking to him my initial reaction was oh he has too much work on his plate. Let's start pulling back some of that work or the work that's kind of grinding at him. And it turns out that there's a lot of confusion. Right? And so I'm going to jump actually real quick. The key was listening. Right? By listening rather than just jumping the gun and acting we were able to work together on a plan to help him mitigate that burnout zone he was in. Right? But if you're not that lucky you know start by looking for lead and teach pep and empower leaders and as far as that last one it's about empowering the right person. Not everyone wants to be empowered. So it goes back to knowing your team. For instance for the longest time I was happy to be that session musician. There's this continuum I've seen about people's careers that when you start out you're at dependence you need maybe some help in your job and direction then you reach independence where I can do this job by myself but you know give me stuff to do and then interdependence would be kind of starting to reach that level where hey I kind of need to lead here so that things are working in a direction that makes sense for me because I've grown and I need challenges. So yeah with the initial response of you can take something off your plate and lighten the load on you at first the feeling that that gave me was this implosion in my chest was like no I need the meaning I want bigger challenges not fewer. And so I told Daniel that he's a great boss to have that way I can do those things and you know when you have that opportunity to be honest about the direction you want to go what's going on you can take proactive steps in our case my boss's boss introduced us to the concept of stretch assignments and that is basically allowing a person to work outside of their comfort zone or their zone of knowledge their zone of expertise and I did a stand with our business intelligence group and created a well I wanted to go in the data science direction and I was working a lot on that but the business intelligence group actually started doing some work with Alexa so I got involved in taking that directory that I showed you earlier and turning that into a voice enabled Alexa skill and got a lot of ideas out of that thought oh wow with our group currently in apart from the stretch assignment we're tasked with accessibility what are the implications of voice interface for accessibility and how can we augment that it reinvigorated my sense of the job that I had been doing where I felt like I had plateaued and right so a leader shouldn't be threatened by those under them seeking to try different things because that can kind of be where innovation occurs it's an opportunity not a threat and you don't want somebody who's burned out on your team you want somebody who's got a healthy drive to them even though it's hard to acquire developers and keep developers happy developers are better than crabby developers so and we all have this need for mastery, autonomy and purpose I really restrain myself from turning this into a third part of the framework and doing map get your map find your way anyways I still kind of inserted it in there I can't turn this stuff off my mind's always going so right overcoming burnout the popular psychology says it's about doing less work and that's not true it's about cultivating meaning in the work that you do and leading yourself with the PEP accounts in mind so let's review that the physical, emotional, purposeful and it's about moving from a lead mindset both senses of the word to that of a leader a leader with boots on the ground and it's about realizing we're all leaders in the least you lead yourself so I didn't go to school to get an MBA leadership management for the longest time for me those were kind of the same thing leadership was good authority and management was bad authority that was basically basically my the level of maturity of my understanding of those terms and they're very different but before we get there, let's take a look at organizational structure so some of you are from enterprise this is a very enterprise structure right here individual contributor at the bottom then the expert or manager the teams are projects that's us, I'm a a technical team lead then there's leaders of other leaders and they tend to be how information moves up and down the organization leaders of divisions and then leaders of the organization itself and ASU one of the largest universities in the United States this holds true like to a T almost it's kind of scary but for small organizations those of you in agencies or maybe just smaller companies some of these lines are knocked out and you might be dealing with even something more unstructured like a minimalist org or well we all deal with Drupal.org in the way the Drupal community works and that's very different right so we tend to make some mistakes when we associate these terms solely with like a position on an org chart because they're different authority is something that's granted by a group to somebody they trust and who's persuasive or could be somebody who's warm and competent it really depends on the culture that you're in but authority is granted and that group also it could be just a group of individuals in Drupal.org in an issue queue like I would say every issue queue itself has its own group who are we going to listen to whose patch makes sense here whose idea is going to win out who's going to lead us there but then you also have groups that are formal such as the org chart so rather than seeing leaders as bad managers as bad leaders we need to pass that and realize that leaders and managers are both necessary and they have different roles a leader is tasked with setting direction and vision and helping the team enact change and be their best selves and that's hard enacting change in an organization very hard managers on the other hand which managers tend to be those that are attached to a node on the org chart a manager is there to ensure operational excellence and delivery managers kind of have a tough job and they kind of don't get credit for having to crack the whip sometimes we need managers right if you have an organization where you have really strong leadership but a lack of management you might be going from one hot mess to another and inversely strong management but no leadership the sense of why this manager is wielding power over me to do things they feel bossy right I would say like calling someone a boss that's a that's a manager that's what bad management but not necessarily so we all have an opportunity to be a leader but we're not all granted that management position in the org chart and I talked about this before right authority can be granted by the organization or the group managers tend to be granted by the organization but anyone who leads can be granted authority by the group so you can have top down leadership and bottom up leadership top down leadership the traditional way that we look at it but bottom up leadership makes some people nervous because there's this management term called alignment we've already used it a few times and basically that just means that the goals of the organization from the top to the bottom kind of line up so you can have people at the bottom suggesting things people at the top saying this is our big goal and people at the bottom with hey I'd like to do this or that right so it also brings in the idea of strategy and tactics and I wasn't really aware until I started reading about this stuff the difference between the two strategy is a goal with a long term to it and a tactic is a short term means towards achieving that strategy so there's a compliment here and you can have I would say at the lower levels your sorts of leadership can be tactical but you can also influence the strategic and quite often like you can have management at the top see good ideas bubbling up from the bottom and have that effect strategy at the top so it's a source of innovation to have strong leadership at the bottom where the boots are on the ground and I put it in here but I had a picture that I came across it was really great it was a package I don't know if it was from Amazon or what but somebody had unboxed this order that they had and they had ordered bubble wrap this big roll of bubble wrap but it was surrounded by bubble wrap inside the container it's like if the people at the bottom were empowered that wouldn't have happened but somebody if you're not empowered it's like I'm gonna follow the rules and just do what I'm supposed to do that sort of thing happens you can't kind of improvise when it makes sense so that's why we do that some of you who have experienced in the business world are like oh wow I'm glad I just went through MBA 101 again or whatever I have a feeling a lot of you have careers that started kind of like mine I didn't have a business background just started doing development and then people start doing web work and then oh I've got an agency suddenly I have employees and knowing these terms maybe you missed them you're probably practicing the concepts but having the words is always so we're almost done with the leadership speak there's this archetypal organizational interaction I have here essentially the top sets the the hill to climb and the bottom decides okay how are we gonna get there and the top can say hey I don't like that idea can you come up with another one when the top starts to get into the how that's what we call micromanaging and we don't like it nobody likes micromanaging we call it micromanaging it's a pejorative term because it's not pleasant because it disempowers those underneath and it's not empowering and it's a petri dish for burnout so this system requires trust and trust but the great news is that people who are doing something that they're invested in are trust worthy more trust worthy than somebody you have to ride like a horse to get them to the finish line so when you're your own leader you manage your own meaning and purpose and the other balances in your PEP accounts so see how this kind of dovetails back into that framework and you work to find a meaningful alignment within your organization where a mutually beneficial outcome is achieved on the way over on the airplane I was reading and I discovered that I reinvented the wheel this is called job crafting this is a thing where you kind of take leadership and ownership of your position and try different things and kind of create your position and maybe innovate as a result of that so if you're interested in it look it up job crafting there's a nice body of work out there so the framework coming back to that this is the algorithm to apply if you feel like lead adjust and invest in your PEP accounts and then lead and session musicians who went on to become rock stars you can write your own music and here's a list of suggested reading if any of this stuff is interesting to you I know I enjoy it to no end drive people crazy with talking about it but look it up there's lots of great resources there business models for teams that's a really great one about entrepreneurship but also team alignment and individual growth the intergame of tennis I talked about deep work by Cal Newport that one is about it's kind of tangentially related but it's about has anyone here read it it's about draining the shallows all those things that you do in your job that are kind of wasteful activity like for me I'll have days where I just am doing environmental scans it's like okay I've got all these to-do items check this nothing I'm still waiting on something there waiting over here waiting over here you just kind of end up in that whirlpool where you're doing that all day and sending emails and you're in meetings and the day's over and you realize I got nothing done this book is about that anybody can do that what you're paid for is to do deep work that is meaningful and it has some strategies and thoughts on how to organize your day and your work in order to go deep and like be valuable aligning for success it's about alignment Harvard Business Reviews 10 Must Reads on Leadership kind of the seminal articles over the last I don't know how many years on leadership Crazy One Podcast and High Resolution they're both great podcasts on actually I'm not a designer I'm a developer but they are on design but they also talk a lot about leadership High Resolution is interviews with leaders in the design community people from Airbnb to IBM those sorts of folks and then Crazy One is Steven Gates who is somebody who was interviewed in High Resolution that's how I discovered his stuff and it's on leadership and your career all that so with that I'll leave you with Daniel to kind of recap on the manager leadership side of things I think really it's about fomenting trust with your team getting to know your team individually and listening to them and working with them I think that creates a better culture it helps you identify leaders that then you can empower as a manager and hopefully minimize burnout so I think that's pretty much it on the nutshell and I think with that we can open it up to questions thank you just here you talked a lot about in PEP which is a really good and interesting thing but what if you don't know who you are like yourself like you were talking about different stacks social emotional on the investing in PEP there was one of the purposeful bullet points was journaling something like that right that's an activity that a person can do that starts to you know it's a discipline that asks a person to start to put into words what they do right and so it's a it's the act of creating meaning and discovering who you are it's a really good talk I think working as like a developer I can relate I've never been like so burned out that I'm like just wanting to get away but I've had days like that and then I enjoy the weekend but one of my questions is I've noticed in my work culture in I'll say like higher education there tends to be a lot of people that don't like to mix personal with professional or fear of getting to know somebody too well like you don't want to cross into that area so how do you like professionally and intimately like get to know your team without making it you know too personal or uncomfortable right well yeah some of it is knowing the culture and it's also if you're like for instance needing to have a conversation about I feel burned out here make a business case for it you can take your needs and make a business case for your needs and without having to bring you too much into it and I think it's a challenge at the management level too because I know I strive to be open with my teammates and to make them feel like they can come to me but even then there's been a couple of times where I felt kind of blindsided right and I would start asking myself why why couldn't they have come to me ahead of time or why didn't they feel like they could come to me before it got to this point right so I don't know that I have a good answer for that I know in my case I was actually promoted from within the team so I had a lot of these relationships as a peer before which I think helps but it's not a silver bullet I think you just have to prepare yourself for and not take it personally take yourself out there as a leader and you know do your best to work with them when it gets to that point and context matters like you said being blindsided don't bring up hey I'm burned out in a team meeting do it in a one on one with your manager maybe looking at performance review or something of that sort and then also like the performance review is a great opportunity to start showing leadership and say hey I've got for the next year can we and this is part of what I'm saying about make a business case for it is I would like to try tackling these problems or working on leveraging some opportunities rather than just working on problems that you know exist and will always be there you tie it to your performance and make it something that your boss can hold you accountable to so in a way you're using the correct venue to change the direction of your job it's a bit of leadership but thank you once again for quick question yeah like you yeah yeah yeah really just a movie as a like it's like it's like it's like it's like it's like it's like no so it's like it's like it's like it's like it's like it's like it's like we're getting ahead I don't think we should know. I am. I started whatever I can hear on Friday. It's always been a good conversation. Yeah. It's just a chat. Four hours. So, can you go to the chat? Yeah. I'm just going to go there a little bit. Yeah. So, my team's name, my team's called Application. So, you mentioned that. So, you were actually, I joke, so there's God, President, CIO, of course, CFO, President, so we essentially the department is, you know, developers in relations, in security, in intelligence. So, you're all open. Yeah. So, I'm in marketing. Yeah. So, you have two, you have two. Okay. Okay. And, and, you know, I work in business. Okay. So, they, I'm trying to collaborate with them. Okay. So, they're all, yeah, they're all designed to be, to be, yeah. We have, you know, Yeah, it goes on. Why? Well, that's not as white, hold on. Yeah. It's like... It's like... It's not good. It's not good. It's not good. It's not good. It's not good. It's not good. It's not good. It's not good. Hold on a second. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah, so this one, Mm-hmm. So it's not yet the one we just got. Yeah. And it's marking the south of the valley. And then we have our stuff. Yeah. All right. Cool. The reason I thought about it was that people right now, it's really interesting. Yeah. Plus, there's a conservation. Yeah. If you don't know what you're saying. Oh, the narrative. Of course, too. So I've been working on this. Like, I just wrote a book a year ago. I was like, come on. I was doing research on it. So I ended up kind of looking into, like, kind of like dealing with him. And I was like, it's a good one. It's a big one. So psychology is really interesting, too. It's a good thing. Yeah. But that's promising, though. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So. I mean, it's been typically. Yes. The shocking on the floor. Yeah. I've heard about that study. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Instead of learning to. Right. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.