 Welcome back, it's still the breakfast on plus TV Africa. Now President Mohammed Buhari has approved a 3.33% reduction in the federal government allocation in the current review of the Revenue Allocation Formula. This was disclosed by the president of that he received a report on the review of the vertical Revenue Allocation Formula from members of the Revenue Mobilization Allocation and Fiscal Commission led by engineer Elias Mbam at the State House of Bolivia. As part of the review, an increase of 3.07% and 0.44% for the state and local government respectively has been recommended. We have joining us to look at the impact of all of this. Country Director International Training Research and Advocacy Group interrupt Dr. Mark Fallon, he joins us from Calabar. Good morning to you, thanks for joining us on this discourse. Mr. Mark Fallon, can you hear us? Good morning, how? Yeah, good morning. Let's start by getting your reactions. A lot of people, some school of thought believe that this particular reduction in the federal government allocation is actually well deserved or well received because they are pointing to the fact that the bulk of the revenue should actually go to the subsistence data. What's your thought concerning that? Mr. Eger, can you hear us? Mr. Eger, can you hear us? Well, I've heard you. I, number one. All right, we'll try and reconnect with Mr. Mark Fallon, Eger, in the data. Merci. Like how you asked Mark Fallon there, some people believe it is a step in the right direction because over time the federal government usually gets, it's still getting the bulk of, you know, the revenue has been shared by, you know, Remfak, but they believe that the state and the local government should actually be getting the lion's share as opposed to the federal government. The federal government should actually just focus on things like the fence and, you know, not getting the big share out of this whole bulk. You know, it's quite unfortunate if you look at the fact that we operate a federal system and you ask yourself what's the characteristics of the federal government. You would also want to agree with me that state resource control, it's very key. It's part of the system at a time where you don't have, because what this is, what this means is that we constantly, the center is, I mean, you know, the center is very powerful and the component units are weak and which is not good for a federal system of government if that's what we're truly practicing. So if the government is saying we have more responsibility, then it comes to the argument of saying, let's devolve the responsibility, you know, devolution of powers as what we have argued over time. And what we want to expect is that with the constitutional review that's been going on, this should also be captured. Let's not forget that the agitation that we're experiencing in different parts of the country, I mean, for instance, you have certain regions saying that we have been marginalized. This region, not all producing region that produce this oil that the nation is dependent on. I mean, if you look at our economy, we're a mono economy. That means they were highly dependent on crude oil and the earnings that accrued from that. So one would not even think that we're even trying to make progress. I mean, with this, I don't think we're trying to make progress. Now, let's look at the essence. If you look at the percentage that the local government is going to be receiving, it's very low. And what is in elementary government, I thought that the reason that you have the local government is that it should bring development to the people, grassroots development. And but now you want to look at the 774 local governments across the entire federation of the I mean, the entire federation. Then you will find that that development is nothing to write home about. You don't want to go to these spaces. I'm not joking, right? You go to some of these spaces, you will be taken aback. I had an experience and after I felt like it was tough because I had a production at a time in one of this community and it had to do with the environment. Then I was there. It was something else. There are no roads. That's number one. You don't have roads. You don't have the basic things in the 21st century. There are no motor. I mean, when I say there are no roads, there are no roads. So you see people walking a distance. But I think we do have Dr. Mark Falloneger back on the line. Dr. Mark Falloneger, it's good to have you join us once again. So Justin asked your thoughts on this new revenue sharing formula. The argument that's been put out is the fact that government has a lot of responsibility. I mean, the center that would be the federal government. And that's why there will be taking the lion's share. What are your thoughts? Because of the system that's being taken. At the top, we do not expect it to have that lion's share in it. The federal government, the situation we are having is the federal union. And if we empower the federal union to take responsibility, then the bulk of work is reduced from the center. And only we do that, things will not be going the way they expect it to go. The federal government is delegating responsibility. And where the bulk of work lies is at the lower unit. And so we should have resources being allocated from that angle. Now, I want, like I said earlier, I want to commit big initiatives with work in progress. We will keep reviewing it. But we should have many things on ground to ensure that these resources that are viewed particularly to the state and local government are actually used for what is supposed to be useful. So federal government, meaning they have a lion's share, is because they want to. Because the proof is at the state to have more responsibility than the federal. And the local government, more responsibility than it has to do with people's federal development. The rules in the community that are leading to that greater community. It's not federal government rules. That's the local government that are supposed to do it. And that's where we begin to connect the food budget to the supply system. So federal government should redefine what each is focused on. And if they define it properly without bias, they have responsibility to know what. All right, Dr. Edger. As school of thought seems to believe that there is seemingly an issue with the formulas too. Because governors have similarly bastardized section 162, 167, and eight of the constitution. Where he talks about independence of financial independence for the local government. Even with this particular formula, the local government still gets him not much. Messi talked about how government should be brought closer to the people, which was the essence of the local government in the first place. But with all of that, we know how it has been happening. They've given financial independence to local government. But since 2018, this issue still abounds. And the local government does not really get what is due then. Now, I think the system is structured to bring this income and challenge it for local government. The same constitution. What is the local government's position of the constitution? They are mainly tensioned. So let's begin to do this. That's really the thing there. And to take care of government, fully recognize by the constitution and it's a great thing you need. The second part of this is that elections should be taken up on the hands of the state. If you take it up on the hands of the state, then you will show that you have two people representing them, not people who have been hand-picked by the various governments. That's one angle to make. The second angle to make is that of allocation. The joint attribution clause, which allows local government at stake to share from the joint attribution account, is being, you know, abused. And it's supposed to be that internalize the deletion level in the state and share. But we are seeing the other way that the governments get the money and give the local government what they want to give. If we go back to 1993, when we had the military planning there, that Ibrahim Babal did that, and we had local government functioning, they had the applications directly sent to them. We saw that the local government will give the money. In 1999, when the democracy started, local government had the allocation set directly to them. It is when we started looking at the issue of the joint attribution account by state and local government, that the government seemed to have excess power that they begin to give the factory amount of money to the local government, and they cannot give money. Okay, so you actually mentioned the fact that this is actually a good one, in the sense that we're looking at timing, we're developing. Now the last time this exercise was carried out was 1992. I mean, it's almost 30 years now. So we're going to wait for another 30 years before we have this particular review and where will the country be? Because we understand the fact that you need to give responsibility to the unit. For instance, if you look at our local government, really nothing to write him about. And the fact that the autonomy for local government has not been granted. Governors have actually not supported that law to grant autonomy to local government. So where does this really leave us? Is this really a good one? This new revenue formula that has been shared, that does not capture the interest of the local government. Now, if the government is refusing to grant autonomy to the local government, it shows the kind of government we have in the system. We have people who are connected with the people at the traction. When it gets to election period to approach it, all of them will return back to their local government. It's time for us to begin to find a way that cannot continue to hold Nigerians into particular slavery. That's number one. The second part of it, are you saying that we cannot make it to make it? Well, we are sure that these issues are addressed. One step, people can take away local government elections from the state without every election to end the independent national electoral commission. We will deny that the power of speaking whoever they want to be there. Because if you construct an election, you have the mandate of the people. You have some power to speak. But if you have it, and put in there by somebody, a legion is not to the people, but to the person. And so, you find that in each of the state where local government elections are conducted, you find a resource is almost 98 percent carrying towards the party of the governor. And so, you have that kind of situation. It's something we need to look at. And then, something about 15 years ago that we did this, we did. We must not wait for 10 years time to wait. We must be looking at the position and review it with a messy plan. I agree that we have to review consistently. But let's talk about the timing, really. Some people have actually questioned the timing of this particular change where lots of reviews have been made to the constitution. Specifically, right now, there are plans to remove on five items from the exclusive to the concurrent list of items like airports, prisons, railway, electricity, and fingerprint identification and criminal records. They've been planned for removal from the exclusive to the concurrent list. And as such, don't you think the timing is a little wrong? And this presupposes that the state and local government should actually be getting more as per revenue sharing. Yes, my position has always been that if I have my way to invest, I will pay 21.04% per gram of net, 29.7%, 9.48%. And then let the local government get the 45%. If I have my way, then you put exactly this to ensure that this glass roof is demolished. If it's properly demolished, you will see that the rural urban migration is going to do the thing. You will have people who are integrated coming into the local government. We are talking about the constitutional reform. And the big worry is that the reform is not taking into clarity the crimes and the killings of the people. There are some things that should be taken out of the concurrent list. People should be given the opportunity to invest. I don't see any reason why it's safe to want to get into real-time investment and it's more to wait for the kind of investment. So these are part of the issues we are facing. It could come on. Deciding, yes, if some people may look at it as they have to have political politicians, that's because our politicians sometimes, you know, we have called them to present and when it gets to election period, they begin to listen to what people have been trying about. If this reform would start at the first year of this administration, we wouldn't be seeing the impact to a person see how far we're going. But however, it's better than nothing. But are you sure it was still the light in this President Mohammed the Buharism at this sensation because from what we all know now, they are more about politics and politicking ahead 2023. Now, I think we can see the light in the leadership's commitment. And if we don't see the light, then the electorate should understand that our politicians do not have us in their minds. Because for me, the difference between the political party is just the logo and the color. And I don't see the difference if we look along ideological lines. But I want to believe that this administration will want to move this reform that we have gotten forward. It doesn't take a lot of time to implement it. So, not be stopped from seeing this allocation formula. See you from next month. So, but let's also look at the fact that we come back to the local governments. The state governors are not willing to allow the local government function the way they should. And if you look at development across the local government, there's really nothing to write them about. I've had an interaction with a local government council chairperson and they don't even have resources. I mean, because we understand that some responsibilities should be on them, right? So, but the basic things that they should have, they don't have. And because they don't even have access to resources, some of these governors have become too powerful that they really dictate whatever happens. It's like, if you don't give this chairman the pie, they can't take it. So, how does this even solve the problem of bringing development closer to local government? And how does also these solve the problem of agitation? The fact that a lot of people feel very marginalized, especially for all producing communities, just opposing that with some states and communities that are not producing oil. And then they still get to get the 13% derivation revenue formula. Okay. Now, that's the issue. We've been able to identify the challenge that the governors of this state are becoming a cause between rural development and connecting with the people. It is left for us at all levels as Nigerians, leaders, advocates, activists to sit down and come out with the mechanism that will show that the governor's strong iron grids for local government should be losing. We've got 36 people. They are not stronger than Nigerians. We need to call the, as a matter of order, the state of emergency, we need the local government. That's one. The second part of what you're saying, we regard to the process of bringing chairman into the system. We need to take away a lecture on local government from the state. What do you think? Was there a time that local government functioned well? The answer is yes. And I visited a place last of the 1993 years. My local government area and the local government have one of the best mass transit in this country. It was being floated by local government. Things which were done at that time was because local government had their locations erected and we didn't have governors who were the officers. You could see governance and feel the impact of governance. So if the governors are consistently lining their pockets with the money that are made for the people, then we must talk it quiet. We must find a way to address it. And the way to address it is to ensure that there is total autonomy for the local government. Aside from autonomy and independence, another issue that still comes to mind is that of accountability. Fine, we might talk about the local government and not really getting what is due to them or it's not just even about who gets what or how much what state or what local government is getting. Shouldn't we even be pushing the discussion or the conversation to the issue of transparency? What are the resource managers actually using this money as for? Okay, with the issue of the value for money and accountability, it comes across the three key elements. It's not only local government. I keep telling you, a force should stop calling the devil black. If the governors are saying that the chairman of the local government are not transparent and accountable with the resources they are using, they themselves also are not transparent. I am not saying the local government's statements are justified, but I'm saying that we will not be limiting issues of accountability and transparency with public funds to only local government areas. However, the issues we are having with local government is because the source that gets me, there is a core somewhere. And if we get to address that, we will have this challenge. There are mechanisms to ensure accountability and transparency. When local government functions predetermined, we have the Project Monitoring Committee. The state has an oversight policy that we're getting to local government and accessing them. Even from the local government service commission, they were having oversight functions. So when you keep having this oversight function, you will ensure that there is a way you can track projects being used. The serious outfit of assembly have oversight functions on local government. We have a situation where the houses of assembly have a hard to sustain chairman of local government for issues of improvising with regard to the legislation of law. So those mechanisms are there. But abilities we're using have been compromised by the fact that even the state houses of assembly are not independent. They are tied to the constraints of government. So if we have legislative autonomy and independence, we have judicial autonomy and independence, you will have the success that we monitor these people and they'll go on without any challenge. So in general, would you say that this new revenue formula would actually force the peace and unity amongst, you know, in the entire country? I think with regard to resources, people will be able to see that they are getting something. But peace and unity with the big umbrella, we must very quickly teach it. Now, with regard to resource allocation, it's a little marginal improvement and I'm saying it is a working problem. No, but the reason that that question has been put out is because we understand that all of this conflict and agitation is from the fact that people are not pleased. It's the resources, how the resources have been allocated and, you know, the displeasure that comes out of it. So basically, if you say that these is good, then it means that we should be getting to that point where everybody feels satisfied. Now, I'm saying that this is a working problem. I said earlier that if I had my will, the resources presented and allocated to the federal government will come to the federal government, will come to the local government. If we get to that discussion as we are moving, we are making progress. It is an incremental progress. That's my excitement and happiness about it. All right, Dr. Magfaland, just before we let you go, do you think that we should be having these as a conversation? I mean, should we be looking at the new revenue formula? I mean, should we be proposing this or rather have, you know, a proper, okay, let's not use the word proper. Should we be looking at the issue of state controlling their resources and then sending whatever it is that they make as a particular percentage, you know, to the center? Obviously, that will be a good thing to do. And that is the true progress of what we are talking about in terms of compensating units and what we are talking about in terms of control by each of these units. So each state begins to control their resources and continues to listen to the center where every state will look at its vitality. If we can't stop them from this, we can't stop them from geopoliticalism and begin to see how we contribute. All right, thank you so much, Dr. Magfaland. But just before we go from this particular topic, let's talk about some financial leakages that have been a recurrent issue over time with revenue shed and all that. How do we begin to plug all of these leakages? If we have the company, we have to agree on these things you need. We all know where you have the needs and how to plug them. It's about being delivered. I think some months, some time ago, we had issues of staff of 10 powers who were to be paid. And when those two jobs were brought up, you and I know that the assets were being quite evicted. So when we have processes that are to make this, we can block the leakages that we have. And we are sure that people will be held accountable. When people who are found to compromise the selfishness of the people are all treated equally the same before the law, we will be delivered and considered to order. And then there will be that accountability. There will be that insurance utilization of the company. When all these are put into place, we will be blocking the leakages and look for people to be given the assets. All right, thank you so much. I indeed will have been speaking with Dr. Mark Fallon Ajah who joined us from Calabar. And we have been looking at the new revenue sharing formula for the government, the federal, state, and local government. Thank you once again for your time. Thank you. All right, it's still the breakfast and plus TV Africa. We'll take a quick break here and return with small. Stay with us.