 Hello and welcome to the webinar building an MVP team where we kind of take the approach of minimum viable product For your product and think of it as how you build an effective team My name is Michael Peck, and I'm the founder and partner at a small consulting firm called Catalyst Community I'm going to start this webinar by just basically starting with thank you I do find the community of product school a very important one I think it's really meaningful that a lot of people work so hard to provide mentorship To educate each other to learn from each other About product management practices and so thank you for being here today and being an active community That I've also benefited a lot from So quick about me I'm an anthropologist by education But I spent the first half of my career More in consulting with experience in industries attack finance retail health care life science is a broadset of Different industries and I moved into more internal roles of product management its sales force as well as add-in for the last two for about five six years and I live part-time now in Japan and part-time in the United States and Chicago and north West Indiana Working on the business that I started but I spent the three years before that in Netherlands working at payment service provider Adien FinTech company and then for eight years before that in San Francisco Bay area various companies and That diversity in location and the experiences that I've had has really been helpful and product management I'm sure that resonates with others here watching the webinar It's really about understanding people people in their backgrounds and you know Customers are people at the end of the day and we're really trying to understand what incentivizes them what makes them tick and what they'll really be satisfied with so I Guess even though it's just about me. I would say a quick bonus learning before I start the other content It's just really do you understand how much life and that diversity of experience in your life can really Pulled into product management and be a good product manager because at the end of the day. Yeah, we're all people and it's a very people and soft skilled Side of product management that I I really find enjoyable even though it's of course a very technical and hard skilled Type of rule So what will you take away from this session? I mean it's really a conversation about being a good product leader and part of being a good product leader is Thinking a little bit different than maybe an individual contributor product management role But really leadership comes in all sorts of ways. So one thing might be you are and I see and your product manager But you really do want to take some of these leadership qualities with you And affect the organization in a new way. So I would say just take away that though The mentality of being a leader in product management and understand what that means is what I hope People can get out of this. So the first point I would have is about flexibility Be very flexible in what your role is product management is already can be quite a fluid ambiguous type of role and The activities that you conduct as a product manager can be varied depending on You know your experience and what organization you're in but even more so more so as a leader You really need to be flexible in the way you carry out your role And so I hope I can tell you a little bit about what flexibility in that rule looks like and how to be effective there second would be to really focus on the relationship between your Resourcing because as as a product leader often times you'll have teams and you'll have hiring needs and you'll need to grow With the organization and how do you grow? It's really a great way to align your product roadmap to your resourcing needs and Understand that there's power in that alignment and three I would really like to see product leaders lead the conversation of product And beyond operational Excellent, so what that means is really focusing on operations and processes and ways of working and as a product leader If you focus there then it can really Change the outcomes of not just the products and the features you deliver But also the day-to-day happiness Satisfaction and effectiveness of the teams and your constituency. I would like to see more product managers Think about operations and think about processes that affect their team and the greater team So let's talk a little bit about that role of a PM leader, so What flexibility was the word I used before? But that's really a dynamic of how you work But why right and the why is really product management leaders by the time you've Been in that role for some time you start to realize that above all else Chasing impact is the thing you should be pursuing impact to the business Impact to your customer base positive impact, of course And I say here about building an army Mainly because as a leader and as a manager you're often especially in some corporate environment you really have a lot of pressure to grow and Change based on hiring quantity And in product management, I'm not sure if that's always the right Approach mainly because what people consider within your team is often product management as a function Whereas what you need for a fully functioning product team Can often not have even the title product manager or associate product manager or product owner, whatever and so really focus on the impact of your resourcing and more than building a team in a quantity sense and so part of doing that is really to empower other leaders to take charges in various spaces because We all know from being product managers That influences everything and the reason influences everything is because you truly Don't expect to have people management type ownership over a lot of Groups and people that you need to rely on every day and that also rely on you and so the best way to actually Chase impact and make positive impact is to really empower other leaders and create a network of change agents that are typically outside of your space but have a direct effect on how you work and Third and finally, I would say as a PM leader You really need to be a person that is good at identifying gaps and define process and role solutions So this goes back to the point of how Product managers really focus on the product and the features that they deliver and they're really good at thinking for example around gap analysis But it falls a little short when it comes to resourcing and when it comes to processes So I would say as a PM leader be very conscious of the fact that the skillset that you already have today It's very suitable in more organizational change than you might know and I speak from an angle that I found it very natural to move from consulting into product management But I also found that many product management peers of mine found a way less natural to Go and advocate for changes around your organization and how others worked and it can be a bit awkward at times Don't get me wrong to tell people that maybe there are better ways to do things But we do need to realize especially in the PM role given the nature that we have so much to Own and so many people to rely on but yet we cannot directly affect them Maybe from a more hierarchical sense that you really do need to advocate for change in process and Understand all the various roles outside of your direct PM team that affect that PM team So you might see a theme here where these are very related to each other But that's that's the point is really as a PM leader You need to take a broader view and understand really what leads to successful teams product So where could you start? You know that might be where you ask yourself from a little bit more in a tactical sense Well, I have three categories here that I think could really help if you keep these in mind One is just always think about showing how it's done And when I say where do I start let's think for a second that maybe you have a new opportunity You just joined a new role or you just became a leader of a product team maybe a group PM from a from more of a senior product manager or something like that these are places that I would say within the first few months to really dig in and Focus on these as categories of activities. So show how it's done. What does that mean? We really Don't make the assumption that everyone even knows what a well-oiled functioning product team looks like Even the words product team together To me kind of fall short because we're really talking about, you know No matter how you deliver whether it's in an agile fashion or you have more of a traditional project management type of mentality at your business. The point is is product management is really principled around Software and development and then it's gone beyond right into hardware and other things. So really when product managers Talk they're thinking about scrum teams or thinking about development or thinking about feature enhancements or thinking about a lot of these things that Other teams aren't thinking about So what does product management team in a fully functioning team look like to you? Is it A cross-functional scrum team that is all dedicated and focused to the outcomes that you have Is it something entirely different? Don't take that for granted and really be the person needs to explain to everybody what the functions are That make things that you're trying to deliver work The way I would start with that is with workshops Conduct workshops where you actually go through the artifacts deliverables and documented examples from your past that represent It being done. Well, you need to come to the table with those examples And then have everybody practice doing this and I would say that it's most important that you have that group Be a wide range of people that might not even have to be doing it daily So for example user stories and a good user story Writing, you know, who's the actual benefactor from what is being created? How are you going to validate that what is created was actually created that you know the way to Expectations so your acceptance criteria, whatever a very well Articulated user story is really fun for people That are even the internal customer stakeholder for that feature to understand the thought process It goes into a good user story and it helps others understand also then what may be a product manager is Looking at a lot and then you can go on and follow that line of inquiry to things like Your quality engineering and your testing How do you validate the outcomes of a release or you know that the product or feature has gone live and that validation that protocol that you have whether it be a set like a test suite or a Set of scenarios or manual testing or automated testing What does that actually look like show those deliverables show those outcomes and talk about them as a team? What is a? Wireframe supposed to do what is a wireframe? Not supposed to do how is it different than a product design document? You know, what are these annotations about interactive elements and functionality versus the styles and the brand of the front-end? Aspects of it. These are all things that you take for granted and assume because you talk about it every day But nobody really is talking exactly the same language until everyone's problem. So show how it's done Humble yourself a bit and instead of just trying to delegate the work to the right roles at the beginning show everyone that you can actually at least from a basic standpoint Provide exemplar pieces of that collateral and those outcomes across the teams and then you'll be more equipped to help empower others and Again to be more tactical with what empower others could be One thing I like to do is select a milestone or an early project That you wanted to be the example of ways of working of a fully functional product team And that could involve bringing a lot of people that just seem to be very interested or want things to get done into the fold and kind of separate and abstract them from their position in the organization and whatever maybe their world description says they are on the daily and Give them the opportunity and have a discussion about hey for this project for this milestone that we're going to try to For example make this major change or this redesign We're all going to work together as a team and there are roles per this functional You know workshop set that we did we all know that these things need to be done jobs to be done Right, that's a very product management way of talking there are jobs to be done These are the people we have at our disposal Who wants to do which jobs and let people lean into jobs? It might not even be completely aligned with what they've been doing outside of this kind of vacuum of an experience The benefit of starting this way is twofold One is that you kind of get to be very risky and what could feel a little Contra Without a lot of risk That is really tangibly there because people are thinking this is very temporary Like almost a fun special moment for people to do this thing And if you can get the commitment from let's say their leadership and management So I'm talking about for example, maybe people that live in the design work or maybe data scientists and other teams things that really Roles that you're going to want to be affecting your team in a positive way But it might be really hard to give full dedication and commitment and really sell that they should be part of The team in your hiring plans or or even the alignment so what you'd want to do there is Really communicate along the way the course of the project how those roles and responsibilities are making this team So successful and how actually a team operating in this fashion Just totally kicks, but it's just doing everything that we need to really get real work done and out and deliver and A fun thing happens there is that it creates this Foundation for you to have this third piece of being an organization changer for you to really bring more of a data or at least you have some explicit examples of Why certain roles really need to be in alignment for you to get more of this good stuff this project Was so successful look at how we were look at how everyone was functioning. How great was that now? We kind of compare that to what we really had today We've got two p.m.. Is and one dedicated developer and nothing else And so if we want more of that man are we falling short? So then you can start to really advocate for roles to be more more aligned with your product or feature set and Start to develop your resourcing plan around something that people can tangibly see and So when you're trying to be an organization changer, this might not be comfortable for you as a p.m.. Because you're really used to influencing maybe Existing roles to help you get things through the finish line But you might not be very versed in writing job descriptions and imagining what organizational charts could look like whether that be creating new dotted lines From disparate groups that show commitment and direction Towards your product team or whether it be saying hey, there are some functions and roles that those workshops showed are probably you know good for a good team to have and We saw them actually come to light during our example our project and look at how successful that was I'd be happy to bring those people on board so we could do more of that type of work Now this is Challenging for you as a product manager By trade because you might be doing for my example in a digital team is managing engineers You know I managed four or five engineers for a long duration of time before we could really get the technical leadership Get someone within that to step up to then say hey, let's have an engineering You know function within this part of the department As an equal partner with this product leader rather than a subordinate or People management relationship and of course it's much healthier and better as it grows to have a technical lead and an engineering team They can equally spar with product rather than ever feeling like there's a conflict of interest to that technical pushback But it's better than nothing to start and you might be one of the most technical people in that You know spear of the organization and that's what happened with me This will also happen with things that are a little bit more on the bleeding edge like experimentation Or maybe you know with machine learning and AI these these are teams Or maybe you really want to dabble in that area, but the functional roles around business really aren't developed So how can you have those people on board if you know your title and your team doesn't really? Doesn't really match. Well, that's what those first two parts really helped with is it shows that a team kind of rallies around the jobs to be done and there are certain work products that are just necessary for the cool stuff that you're trying to deliver and so you're always there kind of as an open person to say things can kind of be I'll be a vehicle for some of these new roles because I know how to I know how to Channel that energy through good projects and releases and of course skies the limit on where they can end up and you can start talking about You know, for example with experimentation It's really best to have a team that is really good at Transcending product lines in different places and having a core maybe centralized experimentation team that could be maybe a year and a half down the horizon and you could see and Tell people what that looks like then and how it could look like now living closer to your team because you're such a Superstar product leader that you can also manage functions that might you might not be even the most skilled at So again, this might be a bit provocative. I don't I'm not sure if everyone would agree with me on that But in the past I've been very open to bringing in functions that are a little bit outside of product management But are so necessary as partners or different roles for a product manager That you kind of need to be the leading Person for it or you might be waiting for a long time to give roles that are important for you and this is a way to maybe To maybe get yourself on track to have that conversation which is challenging if you start with being an orc changer without Really showing out stunner empowering others Then I think you don't have a lot of foundation at those conversations and it can be kind of chaotic and then more risky So just be mindful of that So let's talk a little bit about the resourcing roadmap. So when I say resourcing roadmap Hopefully everyone just thinks of a product roadmap And that's what I'm getting at is really to roadmap your resourcing and the hiring and put context to The roles that are necessary so to that previous slide What would a full functioning team look like what could they deliver and how what would there are and are their roles? Responsibilities be and then you know, what is the organization that might support them? Well now for a second say look This is where the whole organization wants my product line or my space to go Here's a view that everybody is now been aligned with the story. So that's kind of prerequisite to this is having everyone feel really Involved and feel very Adoptive of the arc of your story for where the the product is going and you can kind of use that to your advantage Say okay, so everyone agrees the product should be going this way And we want to be at this visionary place down the road if that's the case then in that same view like in situ Here are the resources that are going to make this a success So it gives your resources a home that isn't a place that everybody is looking at and I ever agreed always living document that people already should feel very spiritually aligned with and so it's not the separate thing of just a backlog of resourcing needs or this conversation that happens on the side and so that's really important and what's great too is that because that Transparency that you have with the product roadmap that transparency leads to also Being revelatory towards resourcing needs that are outside of your team So back to the idea of being comfortable talking about roles and being very open to where they could live it really again adds to that objectivity of Everyone agrees with the vision of the product. These are the resources that would make that successful as we've shown now Look at these gaps that expose maybe other teams gaps that could be a little bit spicier to talk about Outside of the context of the product roadmap, but again product roadmaps have a really great role in making people feel open to challenges and open to gaps and opportunities And so it really might reveal needs outside of the PM role and then finally it provides an advantage to recruitment Recruitment as in a function like recruiters that you might work with but also just the activities that you'll participate in So we'll look at that a little bit as well Okay, so maybe here's an example of a digital team that might have had a couple categories of work here are some themes From left to right. It's temporal in this way. Like thinking about as a roadmap Where did they want to focus? What were they trying to succeed on and then maybe How would the resourcing focus come out of that? So this team needed to start with release efficiency. So maybe the background of the scenario is there's a really Heavy backlog of technical debt a lot of things that everyone knows low-hanging fruit and that that could be fixed But there might be very rare if you turn on Releases around making changes in those fixes. So there's a lot of confidence loss. There really isn't an expectation for success There isn't a lot of Predictability around the releasing And so what this team wanted to do was to really focus on the lease efficiency up front game the credibility of their constituency by providing really predictable releases and having stuff get delivered regardless how big or small it was Even though it was a bit rear-view mirror Even though the stuff that has been lingering for a long time the pointless dig out a bit show that there can be done That there could be progress with consistency and really establish what it looks like to go from You know an inception of an idea having a good clear articulation of a solution Because a lot of times if you're in this situation Maybe you're doing user stories and creating that value proposition in retrospect, you know in a retroactive way So making sure that you've kind of got things from design to deployment and that there's an understanding of how things go from left to right Not way. Okay, so that was the first focus of the team Let's say you're a new product manager and everyone goes, okay You're here to solve all the problems now we have a product manager now everything's gonna be fixed Well, you'll be in this position where you say Well, geez I know that it's pretty misunderstood sometimes what a product manager does But I'm not the first one to make sure that releases go well. I mean, I don't I can't even conduct a release Maybe with my access, you know, I'm not an engineer. So you're getting all these little You know misunderstandings of what you could what you could succeed on and so you might realize that Okay, I can do one of two things I can Hire more product managers because I'm drowning in all the work that's here But we'll just continue to write more user stories, but we won't get anything through or you could Comes a realization that you should which is that actually development and even developers that have a good strong understanding and development Operations like DevOps type of thinkers are really your primary focus as a product management leader So you need to be advocating for engineering Resources at this time and not really worrying so much about growing your product team. Even if you feel this Unnecessary pressure because you have a title that makes you feel like you should have a big product Okay, so then that's all fine and good and maybe you focus there then you move into a scale a Scaling type of situation, right? What's the structure? Okay, great So we daughter sells out now the next thing on the roadmap, you know It's really around structuring for scale because this is really a Platform that needs to serve 10x the amount of people that it did last year by next year We're really growing globally and there's a lot of international requirements and there's this, you know This misunderstanding around really what the journeys are like who does use which product features and all that's not You're in this more kind of And that's a great place to be and you know that so you set up an epic of what we're gonna do is we're gonna structure for scale And so you've got all these activities and features and things that are really gonna help you understand that But you also have activities that aren't features at all, right? You need you need that discovery so The way to answer to that from a resourcing perspective is UX research is a role that you will need you'll need somebody that can really qualitatively You know effective way have interviews with existing customers and understand how they really came to use the product and how they continue use the product Maybe now is a good time to have a new appointed PM lead that can really focus on kind of the next wave of this You know to help you delegate things on so as you continue to to improve the broader team and a group of products and then of course you need a little bit more development because now you're Really gonna start doing some fundamental Changes to to the code base You know, and then we go into the next step maybe where the next epic would be customer experience the journey redesigned Okay, so we've got a lot of learnings. We have a lot of understandings of what maybe the journeys are But we need to say okay, so that's the existing state current state. Let's test out a future state, right? So this has a lot of focus around Prototyping and testing and trying improvements and proposed improvements and doing that in the right way And making sure that they stick from a quantitative perspective So releasing that and checking it against a broader user base and higher quantity And of course you're kind of one-to-one interviews or things that you might have been doing So the focus there and resourcing is really around data science. It's really around your UX designer people that can create Kind of low-weight real quick Ims to then help support maybe like a front-end developer Making a prototype that we can deliver that's a little lightweight and just check it before we really invest in time and then finally What this team wanted to do was focus on operational efficiency. So now the organization is scaling It's at a point where pretty much, you know, the checks aren't blank anymore They starting to optimize their spending and so then you start to say how am I a part of this conversation around efficiency and How we're making the best of what we have and so you might be wanting to focus now and time to market by optimizing the activities from product development and also the inbound and outbound activities So that would be the things you ingest to create good product deliverables, which might be requirements from, you know contingent teams like your designers, etc. Or the out the outbound so when you release the launching the localization You know proliferation of the stuff that you watch and how that's managed So for example, this team considering it's more of the digital team is really focused on Hiring or having hired somewhere else in New York localization management And then within the product team, maybe a product operations manager that can really Do a better job of tweaking and tuning in the operational side So this might be a very rough quick sketch But the idea is think of it as kind of two slices along this timeline of your of your roadmap Maybe you have multiple flim lanes, maybe you have categories that are much cooler than what we have here, but yeah So here are like four categories You really want to line up these devs this ops focus dev your senior PM do X researcher all this together As you can notice none of them really have an opinion a hard opinion on them all being part of my team as a product leader Or your team as a product leader That's the most important part of this is make sure that you're showing how it's all just Required for a successful product roadmap that has already been described and talked about as being something very Key to the business and if you can align it this way Then you're always telling the story Through the lens of a product roadmap, which I think always makes resourcing a much more meaningful conversation And it also gets people to buy in and say yes to the right answer Based on the scenario and product roadmap and then being open to coming up and getting through challenges Which honestly organizational changes so challenging because it really it deals with egos it deals with Historical stuff. I mean, it's just before you get to that state Everybody kind of feeling that it's an appropriate set of resourcing plans, you know first that's I think What is a best outcome from looking at resourcing this way? How does it help recruitment that's another really from my experience I do want to share that I Found recruitment to be just so much more successful when I when I think of hiring through a product roadmap lens and so for example The partnership with recruiters themselves, so you might have a recruiter that's completely aligned with the product work And that means that they do understand Product management hiring, but do they really understand? Your product line they really understand your driving force and the good thing is since they understand product or they understand your space Oftentimes they really understand the artifacts and the things that you work through like a product roadmap Telling that story of resourcing on a long-term point of view Really helps them find the right candidate because they can tell that story in a meaningful way and they can listen to You know a selected candidate and really think do they really fit, you know The story and I think oftentimes the recruiters are flying bit blind there Because we don't let them in enough on the product roadmap itself because it doesn't feel as pertinent To just saying we need a product manager with XYZ experience What's great there too is recruiters work with each other as well So it really helps you expose that there are other Recruitment activities happening may be outside of their focus because many recruiters are focused on different parts of the organization And so they can collaborate a bit more with understanding with That the the focus the dotted line I mentioned before there's dedication for maybe let's say the data science team for against your product line and still a piece of your puzzle and I do I do see that they collaborate a bit more and It gives continuity around the multiple roles as well You're going back maybe one quarter to the next and working through Hiring for multiple roles as you grow you really have that recruiter Understanding the full story just like you did that's longer than quarter to quarter for maybe a longer term It helps you with initial screening I mean typically at least in my experience talk to a product manager for 30 minutes To start before I realized do I want to talk have them talk with the team and talk with cross-function partners? So giving that context and anchoring them to the product Roadmap as you describe their role then they can really have a good dialogue with you and understand what they're talking about to you I do find I mean I've been on the other side of the fence. I think that we could all Understand what it's like to be a product manager Asking about a role as a recruiter and then maybe a hiring manager and feeling like 30 minutes It's a really quick amount of time if you don't tell me how my role is you know Permanent to the to the overall group of maps. So it does help with that and then with scenario-based interviews And I'm not saying it happens every time but most places that I've interviewed Or been interviewing There are scenario-based use case technical whatever stage you want to call it interviews and Frankly, that's very hard because they're flying, you know into those interviews with a really Really light set of assumptions that it's hard for them to know really what's going on And the broader product space and so they don't do as well when they give a Case interview response and also the teams if you're doing product hiring, right I think that you have the people that do the that conduct the interviews be Cross-functional partners that live outside of the product org and that means that they need to understand their role in as well and so if you've gone through the bounce that I mentioned previous in this webinar where You've really got people to understand what a well-functioning team looks like inside and outside the product org The bigger family that it takes right it takes this this village shit to move the needle on the things You're trying to do they understand that space they understand the road map the story arc of it And then how this resource fits in it then they can really ask pressing questions and make them understand whether or not They can work effectively with this person and if it fits that And I do think that that's a shortcoming often is the cross-functional case interview stage if there isn't a good context To the product roadmap I see that falling short quite often All right, and then the final point I wanted to touch on was the operational excellence piece so Smooth operations in product and these dependency groups that that you all have to deal with as product managers Is an is absolutely key to success? And I think it can be one of the biggest frustrations that every product manager has to deal with because again, they're influencing without Completely owning a relationship. I mean, you don't own people no matter what but even from a Organization perspective, you know, you can't tell people what to do You just have to push and hold that they want to right and so some of this comes from the concept of operations because You will probably assume that they understand the impact that they might have on your work Hey, be you might also assume that they even understand how Their way of working is intertwined with your way of working And so if you're a process-minded person you can be very frustrated because you Haven't really a place for you to look at How people are working today and then say this is where it breaks down. This is where we fall short. This is how it happens so Instead of having to be frustrating Take the ownership and frankly carve out the time to become More of a prospect process improvement or business process design type thinker get out things like Visio or visual diagram software Document even if it's current state how things work outside of you and through you as a product team Deliver that to the other leaders within the organization and then propose changes that can make that more smooth I've been a part of dozens of conversations where no one's ever brought out a diagram No one's ever really said hey, this is how we're working today. This is how it should work tomorrow Instead, it's like we need this sooner. We need this faster. What you're doing doesn't work I don't think that people really even have a great way without the right visualization to understand a Process flow and a workflow let along where they can make improvements to that workflow So that's something you need to take on yourself as a product leader even though it really means feeling like you're doing Someone else's job. I mean I can give an example of for example translation management It was somewhere where I would say You'd hope that they're just be a team that does a lot of localization and translation and they understand which countries and Languages we might serve with the product. Well, what if they don't what if that's a completely un-nurtured area? I mean you can either complain about it day in and day out or you can for a month or two carve out a portion of your time to become basically a translation expert and you're you know, you're Documenting the steps of translation where things are and aren't available and all these things you'll find yourself there And that goes back to my first point is the clarity of the role That everyone I think really wants when they start a product manager role and they get frustrated because it's so Flexible and many hats all that it's really in that ambiguity that you can go choose to be frustrated Or you can see it that you are you're blessed in this role to affect change in places that many can't as long as you Don't have this fear of overstepping and you're always going to feel like you're overstepping You're always going to be kind of wiggling in other people's spaces so either get comfortable with it and just try to make it better or maybe a Re-evaluate a product management is best for you because I don't think you can get away with not affecting workflow change so I really advocate for you to think about that and And You know think about how even if you do want to be a little bit more inward-facing and think about just your team I've never seen a product team. Let's say I was a group PM and my four product managers Reporting to me. I've never seen them not become Happier become more successful at their job when I started to help define and work very closely with other leaders to help influence their ways of working and Make sure that that was very clear to my team and also make sure that they understood that there were Steps being taken to improve those ways of working that had direct effect on their day today that's really a big part of your role and Another part of your role that I think could help you feel less Frustrated with having to do so much process work if that's not your cup of tea is really do understand that business value just like Typical accounting everyone focuses on let's say the revenue But it's really a net type of exercise and when you think of net it also comes with cost and Inefficient business practices are very costly and so you're still affecting overall you know the net benefit of your business by working on efficiency and The more that you can actually focus and that's why the product operations manager or a person on your team Really having operational mind and wanting to have that focus if they they don't exist for you to delegate that to then that is Absolutely something you need to be doing as a leader evangelizing the benefits the business value that's there from efficiency because a lot of people kind of do a means to an end mentality around it and just look for the positive impact outside of that might be the KPIs around acquisition or retention or Whatever it is, you know c-stat scores, you know product managers of all these KPIs I don't see very often ones that are around the efficiency of the time to market From the internal teams and how things go through the flow of from you know inception to design to delivery to release so You really need to be a person that's willing to to advocate for those metrics as well and It will bite you in the end if you don't anyway to be honest because I mentioned it earlier an organization goes through a life cycle where it does start to be more of an optimizer than a grower and That's not always a bad thing But that's that's probably as I speak here more from the lens of an exponential growing But a corporate type of company You really you if you hit that place too late and you don't have your head about you on it then when people do start to talk a lot about efficiency and And how optimized maybe workflows are and you don't really have them in a big player in that You can find yourself on the wrong side of that conversation. So I think it's important for that aspect And that's all I had for everyone today I hope that even though it was a lot about examples that I've had from my experience and only three really key takeaways around resourcing growing and Influencing the formation of a product team and really creating that minimum viable product team and starting and evolving it I hope that could give you some inspiration to think about how you deal with Organizational change with resourcing with framing a functional product team and understanding that It's it's very dynamic world out there There are many ways to do it but there are some some key ways that you can make it easier make it more meaningful and If you have any questions, you can always reach out to me at Michael at catalyst community LLC and I'm sure that in the chat and somewhere here You'll be able to find my contact information and thank you so much for the time. It's been great talking to you