 Thank you, Professor Brian Schmidt, the ANU Vice Chancellor. Thank you for the very generous introduction. It is indeed a pleasure and an honor for me to get back to Canberra. It's been a while since the last time I visited Canberra. Allow me to mention a few names here. First is Professor Greg Philly, your old friends, and I'd like to see you here again. Professor Helen Sullivan, Dean of ANU College of ASEAN in the Pacific, as well as Ibu Ibuberten. And all the participants who are coming to this annual S.D. Lee lecture here. Pao Holhill, hello Pao Holhill. Good to see you. I translated his book, so I remember Pao Holhill. I was still a student at Gajah Mada University when the Bukawa Indonesian Economy was out. Anyway, it's great to be back, and I usually came during the Indonesia Update Session, usually in September. And the last time I came, we were actually discussing the Indonesia Mengajar Project at that time. If I'm not mistaken, it was 2012, or 2011, 2012. And we truly benefited from the exchanges at that time. This time I'm back, and thanks to DFAT for having the invite to visit Australia and had the opportunity to visit the ANU as well. And this evening, I've been asked to talk about how democracy delivers, and it is a reflection on the case of Indonesia. But if I may also sort of refocus the subject, not only so much on the case of Indonesia, but also on the case of Jakarta. This is an issue that we have been working closely, and I thought of interest to all of us to ensure that democracy can deliver. People's expectations about what government can do and what government should do is quite high nowadays, especially with transparencies, openness of information, and there is that widespread beliefs that an elected leader in a democratic process should be able to deliver what is expected in the public. And we often hear during elections what are the promises, what are the visions, and I think those are important. And I think Indonesia, having free elections since 1999, we have had enough set of period or data to say whether or not we're able to deliver. Generally, we're able to deliver, but I'll explain to you later why it is crucial to make a breakthrough on that aspect. If I may use, not a PowerPoint, but the Apple ITV, I believe. Is it working? Not yet. Okay. As we waited for that. Let me give you the context. Why in the discussions of how democracy delivers, there is two big bodies on this issue. One is bureaucracy that has been there for many, many years, and they have been serving series of leaders, and they have the ability to always adjust to new leaders who are coming in. And sometimes the bureaucracy has ways to adjust to the newness that is bring in by newly elected leaders. So on the one hand, you have bureaucracy. On the other hand, you have a democratic process that produces new leaders, be it mayor, be it governor, be it president or region. So this electoral process and bureaucratic process, what I've been observing is there's something missing in between. And our reform in the past 25 years focused so much on the democratic aspect of that, and not so much on the bureaucratic structure to accommodate political change. Give you one simple illustration. Scheduling, for example. Our election is designed to elect leaders and then to lead government, to lead bureaucracy. The budget cycles in the bureaucracy does not fit with the electoral cycles of our political process. To give you one illustration, a president in Indonesia is elected, like last time in 2014, for example. Pak Jokowi was elected and inaugurated in October 2014. The president, the sitting president, Pak Yudhoyono, submitted the budget for 2015 in August, two months before Pak Jokowi inaugurated. And he was already elected in July, actually. So can you imagine, he was elected in July, will be president, start in October, and then the sitting president submitted budget in August for the January 2015. So the newly elected president budget plan were actually reflected in the year of 2016. That cycles actually is a problem. Of course there is this budget, APBN Perubahan. How do I say this Perubahan in English? Reficients. But you can only do so much on the revisions. So this is just one example how our bureaucracy and budget cycles and political process were not designed to link. And you can see similar cases at the local level, like my case for example. I was inaugurated in October, same just few days in terms of the difference with the president. And yet when I started my job, the budget has been in discussion and almost all approved. So I can only start in the following year. So that's one example. The second issue is this. In the bureaucracy there's only single track, that is career bureaucrats. You enter office, for example I become governor, I enter office. Everyone who works in the bureaucracy is people who have been working for the previous governors for 20 to 30 years, and they have served numerous governors. They have been doing things the way they like to do for so many years. And you're coming in with idea of change. And then you're not having the authority to basically bring in people that you know will be able to deliver and understand what has been in the campaign promises. So it is an interesting situation. You enter office, you're the only person that is new. So you enter office as new governors, and you're the only person who is new. The rest has been there for so many years. And you're talking, you know, I have these campaign promises. Please deliver. And everyone, yes sir, we'll deliver. And then what are the promises? These are the list of promises. Can you imagine campaign promises being given to bureaucracy that have been doing things, the same things for so many years, and expect bureaucracy to make that change immediately? That's tough. Imagine at the national level, I'm managing Jakarta, and Jakarta has 180,000 employees. 60,000 employees were state employees called ASN, and the 120,000 employees were non-state employee but employee of Jakarta. So 180,000, and the budget is around 80 trillion rupiah. So you have that much resources, you have 180,000 people to manage, you have 11 million populations, you have to take care. And then you enter office on your own. You think you're going to bring in newness. That is a big challenge. And I can tell you that is being experienced by all locally elected leaders, be it mayors, be it region or governors across Indonesia. Now, allow me to share our experience. How do I deal with this? How do we go about this? So I sort of make these simple equations. There is this electoral process which is happening, and it produced leaders. I had 23 campaign promises, and then I'm facing bureaucracy. I translated it into 75 programs, and translated it into 280 activities, with a budget of plus minus, 80 trillion rupiah. How do we go about this? So I started having comparative assessment. This is done before I started the job. As soon as we won the elections, we established a team called Team Synchronization, a synchronizing team. Or at the national level used to be called Transition Team. What does it do? It translated campaign promises into programs, and those programs translated into activities so that it is something understandably easily by the bureaucracy to adopt. Translating that needs a unit, and it is called Governor's Delivery Unit. And I think in many countries you have examples of similar to this. So we did studies on where are delivery units across the globe that has been practiced, which are best for us to reflect. And we are seeing quite a few in Europe. There are a case of Albania, Romania, Serbia and UK, and we adopted the UK model in the Prime Minister delivery unit. And we adopted that. In Asia there's quite a few too. In Brunei, in India, Indonesia used to have UKP-4 in the past, and then in Malaysia, in Pakistan, and all other places. But anyway, so we established what is called Delivery Unit, often famously known as TEGE-UPP. Team Governor, for the speed of development. And this delivery unit is the one that translated all campaign promises into programs, into activities so that it can be easily inserted into programs at various different departments and bodies across Jakarta government. So this is the government delivery unit in UK, Tony Blair Prime Minister Delivery Units. That was our model when we refer in the process of development. And just a minute. There we go. So we were trying to make sure that campaign promises is not forgotten by the leader itself and not forgotten by the general public and not gone in the way, in the bureaucracy. Because the bureaucracy has already had so many existing programs. So we want to make sure it is happening. So the way it works is we translated our promise into prejanjian kerja, key performance indicators, all of them. And everyone in our bureaucracy, the first echelon, second echelon, they're signing a contract with the governors. These are things that you have to deliver. These are things that you have to undertake. And this is the one. This is one example. And we have 78 issues in there. And then these are translated into activities that is being monitored on a monthly basis. So every month they're being monitored. And when they are bureaucrats in Jakarta, when they hear F-8K, from 8K, they know exactly. This is a monitoring system established to ensure that the work is delivered. And this is by no means as a sort of a threatening, but it is more like let's do it in a collaborative way. And it is linked to their monthly take home pay. So you have to deliver. If you don't deliver, there is the reductions in terms of take home pay. Not salary, because we cannot adjust the salary. But in Indonesia you have salary and then you have tunjangan kinerja. The name itself says kinerja, which is performance. So it's performance-based income or bonuses. If you don't deliver, why should the people pay that much? So that is that adjustment needs to be made. And then we build an achievement monitoring tools that we are able to see what percentage of our project or our programs is being completed, how many were not in target, how many were not reporting and all of that. So this is created in order to make sure that all campaign promises were delivered. And I can provide testimony to you that so many of us who are in office don't have the tools, don't have the means, don't have the capacity to monitor whether our campaign promises are being delivered or not. And it is an issue in our democracy. If we don't provide this kind of approach, we may be relying simply on creating positive public perceptions about the leadership, but not on truly addressing issues in a technocratic way. And I think we need to make sure that our democracy is really delivering a project, delivering goods that is in the interest and also that was promised during the campaign. This is just one illustration that I would like to share. This is being discussed within our office that all of these programs in Jakarta. So usually the public discuss this issue. This is an issue that has political impact and this is the issue that has development impact. This is an area that usually people talk about. And then we have also things that is important for development, but people don't talk about it. I'll give you example, the reform and educations, the performance management, the meritocratic system, or the organizational culture, the early educations. These are all important issues for development, but the public is less attention-regiven. So we created this quadrant. We put issues depending on how high is the political impact and how big is the number of development impact. And what we like to do is we like to address all of this, all. If we don't create this kind of metrics and we don't provide instrument in terms of ensuring it is being delivered, you know what may happen? There are so many things. We're not on this diagram, we'll be forgotten. Because we tend to pay more attention on the issues that general public cares about, despite the fact it is important or not important. And what I'd like to address is all of them. So we adopted this approach and with that we're happy to, you know, if I may share with you that in four years we're able to do major reforms in several areas. I'll give you one example in the area of infrastructure for mobility, for example. Jakarta has many challenges and if you do survey to the public survey on issues that matters to you, there are two clusters. One is household issues and two is public conversation, issues that matters in public conversation. In the public conversations issues that matters is one flood, two traffic injections, three disparities of social cohesion. But at the family level issues that matters, one is cost of living, number two health services, number three education. So there is this mismatch about what public talk about and what family would like to see in terms of change. And we in government could not just address one or the other, we need to address all of them. So I'll give you one example with regard to cost of living. Cost of living in Jakarta is high and if we break down cost of living into several components, then the components can be linked to the issue of the public. This is cost of living. This includes majority is mobility, food, housing, those are the basic and etc. And then on the other hand we have a issue of traffic congestion. And when we try to solve these two, let's look at mobility. The cost of mobility in Jakarta could reach up to 30% of family spending. So if you have two kids and you have to take them to schools, you have to take them to work. And that would cost up to 30%. On the other hand, traffic in Jakarta, we have 11 million motorcycles. We have 3 millions for wheelers. So you can imagine because everyone is taking their own motorcycles, everyone is driving their own car. Then we have traffic congestion and at the family level, you have high spending for transportations. So our breakthrough was to create public transport. Not so much create in terms of new public transport, but to integrate public transport. And to do this, it is not possible for the governors to do it alone. That delivery unit matters a lot in the executions of that idea. The idea is for so many years, government have not been providing facility for mobility in the city. We let our citizen to purchase their car, to purchase their motorcycles. We are giving easy credit opportunities so you can finance it on your own. But we are not providing the public transport. And what we do is we are converting that. So for that, what we are doing is expand the BRT system, integrate all mode of transportations into an integrated system. It is called Jack Linko and that anyone can go from one place to another within our city in one payment. So 10,000 rupiah, you can go anywhere and you can transport anywhere within 3 hours. And when we did that in the early 2018, within 2 years, daily riderships of our public transport increased from 350,000 to 1 million per day, triple in 2 years. We hope this trend to continue because Jakarta needs to have around 4 million people taking public transport in order to have better traffic management in our city. So far we have reached 1 million people per day for our daily ridership. And with that approach, we are seeing reductions of family spending. We want to make family spending for mobility go as low as 8% from 30% to 8%. And that is our target at the family level. And at the macro level, we have been seeing reductions of traffic congestion. Jakarta, according to TomTom Traffic Index, was ranked third most congested city in the year 2017. And then we dropped to number 7 and then we dropped to number 10. On the top 10 and every ranking is good except traffic congestion. I mean, you don't want to be on top 10 on traffic congestion. So we want to get out of that top 10. So we're able to reach number 34 and last year we were number 46. So we dropped from number 3 in terms of most congested city, dropped to number 46. And daily ridership tripled. And then coverage of public transport used to be around 40% in Jakarta, now it's 90%. And now you can take micro buses anywhere and it is integrated with the BRT, integrated with MRT. Now, how that were done? It was done because there is this delivery unit that is monitoring the work every week and providing assessment every month. Without that, this process could never happen because it requires detailed work to have that delivered. And I must say, the process is not simple. When I had the first meeting with all public transport operators, which has been there for so many years, it was one of the most heated meeting I ever attended. With the operators of our public transport, the Kopaja, the Metro Mini operators and all of that. And then we invite them to work together. The negotiations takes more than six months, more than 70 meetings of negotiations with all operators. And that could never happen if we only relied on the bureaucrats to do it. So we have to work together. So the Governor's delivery unit, the Tegeo Pipe, was instrumental in ensuring the process is going in the right directions and achieving the target. So from these examples, if I may say, that the political process does not automatically translate it into bureaucratic process. You have to have a bridge to actually ensure that all political promises translated into technocratic program and that technocratic program can be executed by the bureaucracy. So the execution is at the bureaucracy level. Now, with that, we're happy to see that so many programs, so many promises in Jakarta were able to be delivered. Not because of anything, but because the system was created to deliver. If we didn't do that, it would be very difficult to make adjustment in our budget. It would be very difficult to adopt new program because there is no way one person in government, the Governors, simply giving list of programs and then the bureaucracy immediately translated into program. It won't work that way. And I think this is what is missing in our bureaucratic reform. That we have not made adjustment in the bureaucracy. We have not provided avenue for democratic promises, for democratic processes to be adopted in the delivery by the bureaucracy. So with that, let me give you one illustration about the work that was done by the PDU just a minute. Here we go. There are three. So this is my message to the delivery units. Number one is, hold on a minute. Okay. Number one is with regard to fishing alignment. Number two, strategic response and stakeholders management. So this is the most important aspect. Aligning Governors and bureaucratic fissions into one and then bridging bureaucrats with the Governors and ask more and less tell. So listen, ask questions rather than give instructions. So with that, we're able to see many of our promises were delivered. So this is a book in which we outline detailed achievements in terms of campaign promises into real delivery at the city level. And I do think that if we are serious in making sure democracy works, it is important to build that bridge. And Jakarta can serve as an example. And I'm actually inviting a researcher to do that. And now many mayors, head of regions, Governors, we're coming to Jakarta to learn how can we create a delivery unit that is truly functional. To give you an illustration about the delivery unit, we have 57 people working in the delivery unit. With me is Pa Amin. Pa Amin, you can raise. This is Pa Amin Subakthi. He is the chairman of the delivery unit. Previously, he was the deputy director of BRR, the Acheh Reconstruction Project. And then he works as director to state-owned enterprise PLN. And then I recruited him to work. And the design for this delivery unit and also the KPI, I recruited someone from PWC, a director that focuses on organizational change on performance indicators measurement. So we recruited through professionals from PWC to actually work for us in full time to translate all these campaign promises into measurable project programs. And all these 57 people who are working for us in the government of Jakarta, I can say almost all of them were technocratic oriented. Almost all of them have a professional background and they could easily get a job in the marketplace. But they decided to work for government for these purposes. And we're happy to see this maybe as a model. So allow me to end it here and I'm happy to entertain any questions you may have. But again, the idea is in a country like Indonesia where the hope for democracy is very high. The expectations for elected officials very high. If we don't have the means to translate that into bureaucratic process, then promises could be forgotten. And that we will not be able to be counted, to be taken accountable for many of those promises if we don't have the means to translate that into actions. Thank you. Good evening, everyone. My name is Eve Warburton. I'm the director of the Indonesia Institute. And I'm also a research fellow at the Department of Political and Social Change. And it's a huge honor and a pleasure to be moderating this Q&A session with Dr. Basweden. Let me begin by first of all thanking you very much for an incredibly detailed, thorough and insightful and fascinating lecture on the sort of the mechanics of delivering programs at the Jakarta government level. So this part of our lecture will be structured mainly around inviting you all to ask your questions to Dr. Basweden. He's been very generous in allowing us plenty of time to engage with the audience. I might begin by starting things off and then while you guys all sort of think of your questions and I would emphasize that you please think of very brief, succinct questions because we have a very large audience tonight. And I'll invite you to just ask one question. So while you're thinking of your questions, I might start. Dr. Basweden, it was a fascinating talk and it was very focused on the technocratic aspects of delivering campaign promises. But the title of your talk did involve the word democracy. So what I might ask you is how democratic institutions at the Jakarta level, things like rights protections, things like checks on accountability, the things that we normally associate with democratic government. How did you manage, protect and support those sorts of institutions during your tenure and how important were they for delivering the sorts of programs that you've outlined here tonight? Sure. Thank you, Eve. Yes, indeed. And democracy is not only about election, but also about upholding values. And those values include some of them. A very speck for freedom of expressions and then to transparency, for example, accountability. So some of those values and we tried our best to uphold that. And to give you example, the freedom of expressions. Being in government in Jakarta is always noisy situations. Whoever is the governor because the social media engagement is very high. All media are in Jakarta. So small things could be trending topics if it happens in Jakarta. And it could attract attention across Indonesia. And having that is a true benefit to us. What happened is we are able to get quick response from the general public about what we're doing. So we don't see this as a problem, but we are seeing this as an opportunity to get things better. To improve things by having public engagement on everything that we're doing. It could come out in form of criticism. But for us, in democracy, criticism is normal and should be respected. And in fact, we benefited from that. So freedom of expression is there. And one indication is this. We never prosecute anyone or report anyone to the police or anything about whatever they're saying to the government of Jakarta or to the government of Jakarta. We treated this as respect to freedom of expression. And then number two is creating an environment of peacefulness and respect to all groups in our society. And that is also something that we seriously focus on. Ensuring that all groups in Jakarta were given equal opportunity, were given equal treatment as part of our value to democracy. And we're happy to report that the democratic index of Jakarta has always been first in the country beginning in 2018 and forward. So even when there is an objective measurement about our democracy, we serve as one of the highest in Indonesia. And I do things that having transparency, having public engagement is key. And if I may share some of our approach, what is called collaboration. We even label our city, Jakarta as city of collaborations. The reason was simple. I used to be outside government and I'd like to help government. But often government don't want our help. When we started Indonesia Mengajar, I come to Kabupaten and the government say, no, no, no, we don't want you. We're able to handle this. They were seeing us more like someone who may be disturbing the process as a disturbance. And on the other hand, when I enter government, I'm seeing from within that what we have in government is authority. Resources. But what we're lack of is innovations, creativity, network, grounded experience. Many of us didn't have that. And Jakarta is the city where best talents were there. There is no other city in Indonesia that have private sector as many as Jakarta. Think tanks as many as Jakarta. University as many as Jakarta or NGOs as many as Jakarta. Why should we in government do everything on our own? Why don't we invite them to join and work together? And this is again the principle of democracy. So I mentioned earlier about the reform and transportations. In fact, we are inviting NGOs, think tanks from Jakarta as well as from international to work together with us. So many of the reform that we're doing, the idea didn't come directly from us, but from our partners. And when they're involved, they are also seeing what we're doing. They're also monitoring what the bureaucracy is doing. And they're giving feedbacks. Things that they didn't like, things that they criticized, things that is not right, they reported to us. And yes, it requires extra energy. But at the end, we improve the quality of governance and the delivery of that process. Thank you very much. Okay, so questions from the audience. I've got Nava here, Hal Hill and the gentleman there at the back with the shirt on there. And we'll take three at once if we can. So one microphone. Nava, one up here. Thank you so much for the presentation. My name is Nava, I'm a PhD student here. Over the course of my field work, I was researching about Islamist groups, alumni of the two and two movement, and especially the women activists. And I got all the updates about all your achievements from my respondents. And so they are some of your biggest fans. And so when I asked them, why do you work so hard for Paani's campaign? Because they are volunteers for, you know, so Paani's, they really work laboriously day and night, unpaid for the success of your campaign. And when I asked them, you know, what do you hope from Paani's and they said, first they want clean government, governance, and then they want you, they also believe that you would impose a kind of Islamic orthodoxy and Sharia based moral values. To what extent and how would you translate those demands into your policies? Thank you. And yes, and then Hal Hill, yeah. Thank you. My name is Budi, I came all the way from Jogja, Mass. I want to be straightforward. So this is in real essence to next year, when you, the only person now being endorsed by Pak Surya Paloh. So yesterday Pak Prabowo met with Pak Surya Paloh and that press conference Pak Surya Paloh mentioned, of course, we need to be polite and still working together for future Indonesia. But Pak Prabowo said that if Anis running for president, this is Pak Prabowo's words yesterday, okay, I'm willing to fight against him. So my question, would you be willing to fight against him in the next election? Thank you. And Professor Hal Hill, yes, please. Paani, Salamat Datang. Very nice to see you again. Thank you for your interesting talk. By the way, I think you're being too modest. Your city is 11 million people, but as I understand it, it doubles to the Australian population size during the day. It's a bigger job than you talked about. So let me, if I may ask you an economics question, since I first met you as an economic student at Gajamara. So, and your prospective career looking forward. So the Indonesian economy has done quite well during the Democratic era last 25 years. And I'd argue, I think a lot of people argue also, that one of the reasons is that the key economics positions have been sort of insulated or outside the political process. That is the two key post-Mendri Kuwangan and Bank Indonesia Governor have typically been technocratic people, exemplified currently by Ibu Srimoyani and Periwajo. So that seems to be a crucial part of the Indonesian political economy construct in the Democratic era. Looking forward, would that be your intention to keep that kind of tradition going? Thank you very much and welcome again. Islamists, Pak Prabowo and the economy, 2024. You have five minutes. This is so Canberra. It was quiet. Pa Anil Kumar, thanks for coming. Usually quiet audience like this is in Singapore, but it was quiet here. Anyway, the first questions with regard to aspirations. I've received many aspirations. And when I'm working as governors, then I have a few principles that I uphold when making decision. What are the first one? First is justice to all, the principle of justice. Number two, common sense has to be there. Number three is public interest. And number four is rules and regulations and undang-undang. So I didn't work the other way around, Pak, because most of us in government will be working their way around. Number one is following rules and regulations. But sometimes they're not making sense. And sometimes they're not in the public interest. And sometimes it doesn't reflect the principle of justice. So our approach has been like that. So principle of justice, and then common sense, and then public interest, and then rules and regulations. So with that, I believe that's the very principles of Islam too. It's justice. So that has been our approach. And if you are witnessing Jakarta in the past five years, we try to always ensure that our principle is being adopted. So it's not specifically only for a certain religious group, but also to all. And that has been the approach. And I'd like to carry on that approach toward the future. Second questions. I think I really need to listen to the quote, Pak. But would you be willing to fight against Pak Prabowo? That was the question, right? What do you think, Pak? If I may address, I think toward the future of Indonesia, we'll see who will be and the tickets. We don't know yet. And I myself, if I were asked six months ago, I never expected the nomination come that early. You know, I always thought that presidential nominations would perhaps start around May and June this year. That was, you know, my thinking. And that's why after I finish my term in October, I like to take a break, perhaps sabbatical, and do a little bit of work before election cycles. And I wasn't sure which directions I will be going. I may be going for the election for Jakarta, which is also next year, but it can also be a national elections. And I was always being frank. I wasn't sure why, because I'm not the leader of political party. I cannot nominate myself through political parties. For the gubernatorial elections, non-partisan candidate is possible. But for the presidential elections, there is no non-partisan candidate. So it has to be nominated by political party. However, we know that Nasdaq nominated in October and then last month, PKS and then Democrats. So here I am, non-partisan person nominated by three political parties. And yet some party leaders have not yet getting nomination in terms of minimum 20%. So I think toward the futures, you have to be ready to sort of compete with anyone and present your idea, present your records and let the public of Indonesia decide which one they're going to take. Pahol Hill. The same approach that I've been doing in Jakarta. And that's why I often ask the general public to not only ask what will you be doing in the future because you can provide any answer with regard to futures because it's not happening yet. But I would suggest to all of us here, whenever you ask questions, ask what have you been doing, what have you done in the past on similar case. I enter Jakarta as an elected governor and then you have leaders of departments, agencies, bodies, CEOs of state-owned enterprises. I did assessment to their performance. If they are performing well, then no replacement were needed. They can continue the job. And many of our directors were appointed by my predecessors and they're still doing their job until today. The reason is because they delivered. So the approach when it comes to government, you have to really give values to technocracy over politics. Now, where is the political components? The political components is on the agenda that needs to be delivered. Those are the promise that needs to be delivered. So you may be the head of the transportation department and you have been doing more of managing private vehicles. New governors come in and say you have to manage public transportation now. You deliver it but this is the content. This is the political agenda that you need to deliver. But who delivers the technocrats? So that was something that I have adopted in the past and I think we will value that in the future. And on the other hand, when it comes to cabinet ministries, there are a portion which political parties would like to have their candidates and their people to be in. And I think that's the reality of politics everywhere. What is important for the leadership is to have clear vision, translate it into clear agenda, translate it into clear KPIs and then have a unit that is doing the monitoring of the execution. So the individuals could come from anywhere. But if you don't have the delivery units that monitor that, many of those premises, many of those vision agenda could be lost on the way. Now, Indonesia benefited from the fact that we have technocrats in the ministerial post. However, that doesn't guarantee you that they will be doing what the leaders wanted to do. They will not be partisan but that doesn't mean non-partisanship is according to the agenda of the leaders. So I think this is two different things. Having that technocrat is good but having clear agenda, clear priorities and clear KPIs is as important. Otherwise, non-partisanship could go on their own way, not in the way that the leaders is envisioning. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. We are actually on time at 7 o'clock. If anyone does need to leave, that's fine. But Patanis has been very generous and is happy just to go a little bit over time because we're running a bit late. So other questions if we could keep them super, super brief. This gentleman here was so fast, I have to give him the microphone. Patteri over here and then we'll see how we go for time. Thank you. Thank you. My name is Tegu, I'm currently studying strategic studies. I'd like to ask a question that is perhaps a bit early. It's also in August 2024. As you are one of the possible candidates for the running election in 2024, can I please get some of your thoughts on Indonesia's defence policy? Because if you will be running for 2024, I'd like to know how your views on Indonesia's defence policy will be. Thank you. One is asking whether I'm challenging. Two is asking what's the Indonesian defence policy. Same person actually referred to. All right. We might just take one more to Tegu. Yes. Thank you very much for the review of how you ran Jakarta according to your election promises. But one thing you didn't deal with in election promises was COVID. Could you tell us how you dealt with what was probably the biggest blow to Jakarta's public health in many years with COVID? His name is again. That's Terry Hall. Terry. Okay, first questions for Tegu. Security, in fact, in the past two days have been discussing so many balance of power issues in the region. But overall, I could not go on to detail at this point. But we'd like to see our defence capacity able to maintain territorial integrity of Indonesia, and especially in places where potential frictions can take place, such as South China Sea. So we'd like to have our capacity enough to ensure territorial integrity. Number two, sir, Terry. Thank you. COVID is something that, yes, we didn't predict. And I must say it was one of the deepest leadership learning experience when we deal with COVID. And we work immediately with scholars. So if I may say our approach in Jakarta in dealing with COVID was this. I involved in international mayors' associations like C40s. So in early January, on 2020, early February, mayors were having meetings. I involved in those meetings. During those meetings, there were sharing stories about the severity of the problems in their cities. So mayors of Seoul, mayors of Tehran, Milan, you know, some of these mayors were sharing to us the difficulties they're having. And we learned that early. And then we started to have task force. We established a task force before the national government established a task force. And we had meetings with the immigration services, with the intelligence, with the travel bureau, inviting them. We're trying to evaluate how many people were coming from China at that time. This is the month of January in February. And we started reporting our testing result to the national government in the Ministry of Health. And this was a situation where we have to decide how to go in handling this crisis. And we thought the key word to handle this is trust. We have to have the trust of the public to government because the epidemiologist were telling us it's not going to be short. It can be a year, it can be two year, it can be longer than that. We didn't know that. So number one that is important, public need to trust us in government. And that is our principles. So in order to gain trust, we are being transparent. We are telling exactly what is happening to the public. We are telling exactly what they need to do because we would like to manage that trust. And trust is three components to that. One is you need to send a message that you're competent. Number two, you have to have integrity. Transparency is key component to integrity. And number three, you have to be intimate to the problem. Intimacy is key. So that was our approach. And often when we adopt that principle, we are not always in line with the approach of the national health policy, especially with the Ministry of Health. Give you one example. We send samples of our patients in hospitals to the Ministry of Health. And they never come back to us. So we didn't know whether this is positive or negative. We have sent quite a few, more than 200 I believe, by early March. So I decided in March 1st to go public saying, we have submitted PDP at that time to the Ministry of Health that we are not receiving response. And the Ministry of Health was responding in a negative way, saying that there is no case at all. A day later it was announced the first two cases of COVID at that time. And then Jakarta government is the only government that manages funeral services in the cemetery. Average funeral services for the past two years, so 2018, 2019, monthly average is 2,700 services. In the month of March, jump to 4,300. Right? And the month of April, it reached 4,500. This is no small numbers in terms of funeral services. Something must have gone wrong. And then we're looking at the bills in the hospitals. The pneumonia bills doubled. Something must have been wrong. And we're in a situation in which on the one hand, you're listening to mayors across the globe saying there is a problem. On the other hand, we're talking to the Ministry of Health who are trying to isolate this problem and say, you know, this is not a big deal. And then you're talking to the general publics who are worrisome. And that was the time that we decided we will go public. We will create our own policies and move forward with both policies on protecting our citizens. We may not be popular, but I told our team, let's not worry about what people write about us today, but the social media says about us. Let's worry about what historians will be writing about us in the future and that's what matters. So that's the approach. And I'm glad that a year later our policy and the national government policy is synchronized. But it takes a few months for that approach to a synchronized approach to happen.