 All right, hello and welcome back everyone. Thanks so much for returning. Thanks to the live streamers for tuning in. We are about to enter our last session. So this one is a user perspectives panel. It's going to be hosted by Breanne LaPaire of Nels and it will be filled up with people also from Nels. And I think I hear some people, but I think it might be the panelists who are unmuted. So in that case, without further ado, let me pass it over. So welcome, Rianne, thanks for hosting this panel and thanks to the testers for telling us all the exciting things you're about to tell us. I'll put myself on mute and let you take it away. Thanks, Leah. So as Leah mentioned, my name is Rianne LaPaire and I am the Brellen Accessibility Testing Coordinator at Nels and I'm super extremely fortunate to work with these incredible people every day. And we're just going to get right to it because they have so much to share and we have a very short amount of time to share it in. So to begin with, I'll get everyone to quickly list or say their names and where in the country you are from so that everyone can get a good idea of the geographical differences of our diversity that we have here today. So Melissa, can you just quickly start? Yeah, I'm in Montreal now. Thanks. And I use the pronouns she, her. Thanks, David. I'm in downtown Toronto. Excellent. Thank you. Kai. I'm in Markham in the Greater Toronto area. Simon. Simon is here. I think he's on mute. I'm going to click ask to unmute. Maybe technical difficulty. And is John here as well? He is in here. Can you introduce yourself quickly, John? Thanks. I'm John with Nels and I'm in Saskatchewan. Thank you. And Simon, are you here now? Must be technical difficulty. I'm thinking so. Simon is here. I'm right here. Perfect. Just quick where you're from. Oh, I thought I did already. I'm sorry. I'm Simon. I'm from Nanaimo BC. Perfect. Thank you. All right. We will get started. So the first question is a bit of a long one with lots of kind of sub questions. So, um, so the big, the first thing we'd like to know is about how do you read? So can you tell us about what your access toolkit looks like? And if you prefer certain formats or tools for specific purposes or circumstances, and then further to that, is there a time when you'd use a new tool versus a familiar one and Kai will start with you. Thanks. Um, so for me, I like to use thorium and bookworm on windows because they provide, um, similar, but also just similar, but also different feature sets. For example, with bookworm, you can, uh, annotate content. Um, on iOS, uh, I use voice stream and, uh, I also have a braille display. Um, and that's when I want to look at things in greater detail, especially more technical material. Um, I do have a, uh, canoe, which is a multi-line braille display. Uh, and so I like reading novels on that as well, especially for the spatial content. Um, it is a little bit, uh, noisy. So I generally don't use that for work for work. I use a braille display. Um, but, um, I also use a lot of tactile graphics as well, uh, for academic and professional stuff. So that's pretty much it for me. Thank you, Melissa. Yeah. Um, so on my side, I use various reading tools and it really depends on what is available and what I need, uh, them, uh, to do with. So my preferred format for fiction or leisure reading is Disney Audio Book, uh, which I listen on my Android phone and it allowed me to access story without the difficulty of decoding, uh, which come with being dyslexic. And I do buy audio and I borrow them from my, uh, local library online, uh, for reading materials related to work or university. My preferred format is tax, um, and I use word office, uh, the platform only, uh, the best visual adjustment feature, um, I found yet. And I use the building, uh, in as the reader, which I just need to all the regular adjustments. Uh, the method reader allow me to change for instance, the background color. Uh, I usually use, uh, pale orange one. I can also enlarge the margin and also the word, uh, spacing. So sometimes print feel a bit like a wall of text in front of me. So immersive reader really helped to. I read the text if I can say it like that. And, um, last but not the least feature in the immersive reader is text to speech. So as the text is being read, uh, uh, out loud, the word being highlighted a bit like karaoke. So I can follow the other in the same time of the written text. And then I can make notes. So that makes, uh, really, uh, great workable format for academic purposes. And I do use a hip-hop in a very similar manner in even a vital bookshelf. Last thing is that I also use PDF and because since there are the most common reading format in academia, uh, most of the time, the only one I have access to. Uh, however, this is not a very good format for me and makes me tired really, really fast. So alternative format to this would be ideal. Thank you, Simon. So when I'm just reading books for fun, I'll often use my iPhone with an app called voice stream reader and the text to speech that's built into the phone. I've kind of trained myself to read pretty quickly on this. Uh, voice stream also supports audio books. So if I get them from the right source, as in somewhere that doesn't include DRM on their books, I can just play them in voice stream. Otherwise I'll play them in whatever app I may use, Libby, Audible, and so forth. On the computer, I'll often choose to use the computer if I read more technical material because it's easier to go through line by line and navigate with the keyboard than it is to do touchscreen gestures to get around. Uh, so for that, for a long time, I just used an app called Qread, which just renders the entire book in a giant text field. And you could use keys like H and Shift H to go between headings and there were some basic shortcuts to get around. Uh, more lately, I've been investigating thorium and bookworm, the same tools that Chi referenced earlier because I think that they're making some pretty good advancements and I'd like to see what they're doing. But something simple with keyboard navigation is generally what I go for in that case. I do have a Braille display, but it's very small, so I don't often find myself using it for anything besides note taking. I'm hoping to fix that soon. Thank you, David. Well, I, uh, because I have low vision, I tend to use my PC a lot because of the big screen and I have Zoom text, which makes it really easy to navigate and to enlarge and make things smaller very quickly and then to change the screen background very quickly back and forth. I often use thorium if I'm reading a book and otherwise I have an iPad and because it's portable convenient, I use that when I want to get away from, you know, my big screen, which is mostly work mode and but I'm experimenting with readers now and I haven't really settled on one yet. I like Voice Dream quite a bit and I'm just starting to get into audio books a bit, so I'm still experimenting with some of the audio book apps too. That's kind of where I'm at. Thank you, John. I have similar responses to what kind Simon kind of mentioned. I typically use screen readers as well and for leisure reading, I typically use audio books, though sometimes I also use text-to-speech. For audio books, I often use a hardware player, a Victor reader track and sometimes occasionally I've used Voice Dream on my phone as well. I use Voice Dream for text-to-speech books on my phone if I'm reading for leisure or don't necessarily need a lot of detail for work purposes or study where I wanted to be able to navigate around a lot or get a lot of spelling of names and things like that. I will use a screen reader on my computer and I would use apps like Thorium or a browser if the material is available in an environment that I can read in a browser. And for the tools, typically I would look at, start with existing tools, but I would try and not be opposed to trying anyone if the tool had some unique features or there were books I could access through it that were not available elsewhere. Support it for that one. Thank you. The next question is how do you discover or obtain accessible books? John, we'll start with you. As typically first, I would start with the accessible services of NALS and CELA and I would also consider other services if the book I wanted wasn't available at the NALS or CELA libraries. Audio books are more easily accessible with mainstream applications and some e-book applications, I know Libby by Overdrive has been, I've got some accessibility improvements recently which I need to explore a bit further, but the e-book applications typically have been a little bit more challenging with screen readers, but hopefully that's going to change in the future here. What all I have for services and I think I'll let the next person deal with some other aspects. Thank you, Kai. Yeah, so I really like what John said about where to get books in different formats. I want to kind of go back a little bit to kind of that discoverability, you know, where would I look and really like anyone else, I read a lot of blogs and articles about new books that are coming out. I'm a huge sci-fi and fantasy reader, so I keep up to date with that. I'm always requesting a lot of new titles for NALS and one of them, of course, is being able to look at these different sources and what I find with a lot of these sources is that they will provide a description or a synopsis, which is usually what either hooks me in or not, but they won't post any alt text for the book covers. The few sites and pages that I do see that have alt text for their book covers, it's really cool because I think it really helps me understand what's in the cover and if other sighted people are talking about it, I can talk about it with them as well. Thank you. What does timely and meaningful access to quality content mean for you? Melissa, we'll start with you. Yeah, so for textual digital content, timely access, I would say, is when you need it or want it. If you do research for university or for work, you need to often consult a lot of books in one day and in my case, I go to my online university, do the research, I've done so many books to check if the article can help me in my research. That has to happen fast and in the academic effort to wait two or three weeks for a book article in order to consult it. So it makes the research process long and painful if you have to wait for accessible conversion and if I can continue the foot analogy of Bob Minnery about the time delivery, imagine that you're cooking a recipe and you can't remember what the next ingredient is needed. You probably would go do a small research on Google and then normally you would find it almost directly. But imagine if Google tell you we will send the answer of your search in the next two weeks. You may have issues with your recipes here and now and then when you will receive the answer it will be too late because you ate your spaghetti with alcohol. So, yeah. Thank you. John? I would say similar to what Melissa said to the, as far as the timing issue, access when I need it, though I would be willing to be understanding if it needed some conversion, that's understandable, it might be a wait for that. And for the meaningful access piece, I would say it's important to have a book that's well marked up, so as headings that are marked up as headings and so forth and should be designed that way. So a simple book might have all the top level headings marked up as headings, but that should also be, the book should also be produced in a way that the producers aware of it. So if there's subheadings in the book that those are tagged with appropriate hierarchy. So it falls through. Thank you, Simon. I think it's important to distinguish between the type of content that you want timely and meaningful access to. I wouldn't necessarily expect instant access to a math book, but if I can't get a copy of a textbook that I need that is just pure text in a timely manner, that's a problem. If I have to contact the disability office at a university three to six months in advance to get a copy of something that should be available in publisher quality, and all they do is scan it in, that's still not really meaningful access, is it? Because somebody else has to recreate what should already exist. So I think that's an important thing to keep in mind. Thank you, Kai. Yeah, so I want to kind of start by saying that I use a whole arsenal of tools to get timely access to material that could include contacting the alternate format producers to prepare accessible content, but it could also mean doing remediation on my own and taking a file and converting it into an accessible format and maybe marking it up. And all these methods are definitely valid, but I think in my case because I'm a kinesiology student where there's a lot of complex documents with a lot of tables and images, these need to be converted into an accessible format by an alternate format producer. And so unfortunately, during kind of my academic career, I've been receiving a lot of materials like really late. Even when I contact the people I need to in advance, so unfortunately some of those materials come like half a semester late and whatnot. And that ends up becoming really stressful because I have to play catch up. And so I'm hoping, especially for STEM materials that will have a lot of different ideas of like how to provide that a little bit more timely, whether that's like providing common textbooks and whatnot that's already been accessible. So things like that, I'm hoping that there'll definitely be some improvement in the future. Thanks, David. Well, timely and meaningful access in the end means to me equality. And it really feels good to know that I have the choice of and the pleasure of reading whatever is out there and noting that's open to me and it's getting better. But when I first started to use an iPad to read, it certainly wasn't like that. So that's the bottom line. It means equality. Thank you, David. We'll just let that sit in just a little bit. The next question is, can you share a specific experience or circumstance where the availability of accessible content had a significant impact on your academic or professional aspirations and choices? Kai, we'll start with you. Yeah. So I already really kind of touched on this a little bit with kind of my academic career. But I do want to also add to that, you know, sometimes especially in the STEM fields with the amount of material that's unavailable. Another method that I use to get accessible material is really kind of crowdsourcing, getting my professors and my peers to help draw graphics and rough sketches of things definitely help because I'm a very spatial learner. There's kind of this misconception that if you're totally blind, which I am that there's not really a lot of spatial things that would perhaps make sense. But that's actually far from the case. I love knowing how things relate to each other, the size and dimension of things because I can understand that not just conceptually but tactically and spatially and be able to imagine a lot of these things as well. So yeah, I think when it comes to the STEM fields there's a lot more we could be doing, whether that's some content from the publisher side of things and looking at universal design. So yeah, STEM is very much kind of like the wild, wild West in that sense, but yeah. Thank you, Melissa. Yeah, I guess to do it very fast, I could say the difference between reading PDF and then having access to text-to-speech for me, it's really a difference between having the energy to read for three hours in a day because it's so demanding, it's so flexible to read with my eyes. When I have access to text-to-speech, it means all this continuous effort is removed and I'm able to access the content directly without the obstacles. So yeah, I would say the difference is really in terms of energy and my ability to follow like the fast rhythm of a university course. Thank you, Simon. So I've had good and bad experiences and since the question never specified, I'll talk about one of each quickly. They tended to come in semesters, so my first semester at university, I took some web production and audio production courses, just as an exploratory thing, and all of the material was fully accessible. I think I had to get one book through CAPER, but I got it the day after I requested it and everything else was online and was just immediately available to me the way it was immediately available to everyone else. And so I kept taking those courses through that same professor because it just worked out so well. One of my semesters I took, I can't remember the first course, but the other was an English course. The first course had a textbook that was only available on Amazon Kindle, and at the time, this was 2017 or so, Amazon Kindle was not very accessible. You could only read on Windows using text-to-speech and you couldn't read by word. Various other parts of the app were not very usable at the time. I will say in all fairness that it's improved a lot since then, but at the time, I couldn't read my book in Kindle, so I could rent it or I could pay a whole lot more for a copy that I could open in another app, except when I opened it in another app, it turned out that it was a completely untagged PDF that was in a double-page view. So I would read one line from one side and one line from the other. Basically, long story short, I ended up having to drop that course. The English textbook I was able to get, but the only edition I could find was two editions older than the one I needed. So for the whole course, I wasn't able to cite by page number or anything. Thank you. David? Well, having accessible content, really, this job is a great example of what it means to me. I would never have had the pleasure of working with this group if there wasn't such thing as accessible content. And one thing I do remember is a great experience is about... 20 years ago when my vision started to get to the point where reading regular print was not possible, there was about five years I didn't read, and then something called the iPad came out. And the first week it came out, I stood in line and bought it. And I can't believe that. I think that's about 14 years ago or something like that. And then, again, I was able to read again. And it was absolutely incredible. I just couldn't believe this was happening. Things are changing a bit now for me, but that was one of the most incredible experiences, and I'll never forget. I really, my faith came back. Thanks, David. John? Thanks. So I'll also give a couple of examples. The first one is a number of years ago, so it may be quite irrelevant, but it still brings a point to mention it. I had a physics textbook at one point where there was an online version from the publisher of the textbook that could be accessed, but unfortunately all of the equations and images were in images with no old text. So it wasn't overly useful other than the textual content. Now I did have a version on cassette at the time of the, of the book that was an accessible version. So that had formulas and diagrams described, but the challenge with it was the navigation of skipping around isn't very easy on cassette, but hopefully that will be easier, especially if digital material is well marked up. And the second example is more recent within the last year. I was working with Microsoft Excel and wasn't quite finding what I needed from the official documentation about visual basic. And I found a book that went into quite a bit of detail and it happened to be quite well marked up. It had headings marked up and code parts of code and block quotes to offset them from the rest of the text and images had descriptions and so it was, I probably could have found my material in it even if it wasn't so well marked up, but it was quite a, it stood out to me because that level of markup I don't encounter that a huge amount. Thank you. Now what is one issue, what is the one issue or factor currently impacting the reading experience that you would most like to see prioritized within the reading ecosystem? David, we'll start with you. Well, I think that what would be great, and this just stems back from my years of, you know, reading in bookstores and having the time to actually check out a book. I would be really, really happy if perhaps one chapter was included as an example with every book when you were looking online because I find now that when I try to find something in different places, there'll be sometimes a sentence or two, sometimes three sentences, sometimes even more than a chapter, but I'd love to see that standardized where perhaps you do get to check out the possibility of having a chapter to read and really getting to know what it is you're reading before you purchase it. So that's just an idea, something I'd like, but yeah, I think that would make a difference. Thanks, John. Thanks. So I would say the biggest thing for me would be for, since there's still a lot of DRM used, that if reading apps could improve their accessibility with screen readers, since especially with eBooks, there's things like they may read the text, but they may not indicate that something is a heading or you may have to start the reading process at the top of every page. I know I would say if I needed to start reading at the beginning of a chapter, that would be, I'd be okay with that more, but every page is not as good of a reading experience as if it's more continuous. And I think that's my answer for that. Excellent. Thank you. Kai? Yeah, I think for me, it's really going back to basics and talking about structure and image descriptions and that type of stuff. I'm still finding a lot of books that don't get that right. And so that definitely impacts efficiency, especially for the work I'm doing with my college and academic careers and trying to find page numbers for citations. That's still very challenging to do even with a digital file. So I think it's really going back to basics, looking at structure. That's something that we still have to do a lot of work on. Great. Thank you. Melissa, do you have anything to add? Yeah, just lastly, I think one thing that impacts my reading experience is the fact I need to use various reading apps for different formats and this is quite annoying. So for instance, having a map that does everything, including converting PDF to Word or mp3 and also having the visual adjustments and the possibility to make notes, all in one would help a lot. And I know there is apps like Cook Ben 3000, but they're quite expensive. So I guess I would add also to have these applications all in one being monetarily accessible. Thank you. How would you like and expect retailers to display accessibility metadata and why should this be a priority moving forward? Melissa, we'll start with you. I would say that accessibility metadata should be displayed along other metadata and they should be user friendly in terms of the language they are written in. Also, it would be great to have the metadata within the research filter. There is time again and again that I'm looking within my library for accessible EPUB and I have to open 10 different books before to find a format that works well for me and this is really tiring. So not only metadata should be consistently put within the book but also make sure they are retrievable when browsing the book. Thank you. John? I would say for the metadata that it should be available on the information page for the book in the retailer or library. It could be at the bottom since it's not necessarily usable to everybody. It wouldn't have to be right at the beginning but it should be easily easy to find. And also I would say that it's not directly metadata if a book does have DRM that should be specified either as a whole for the reading system if that's applicable or per book. And I would just bring the example of Google Books as an example is that they have information on their book pages whether a book can be exported as available whether it can be exported to another app and that's not directly metadata related, metadata related but important so users know if they can use it in a given reading system or not. Thank you. David? Yeah, I guess I'm echoing Melissa a bit but I think metadata should be simplified, created in just really plain language and presented either like John was saying either up front with all the other publishing info or somewhere at the back but easily found, easily understood just so you can take a quick look and you know where you're at just to make it simple. Thank you. Simon? Anything to add? I agree with everything everyone said and I think the only thing I would add to that is that it would be great to see some kind of search preferences that are permanent. So if you have an account on a particular retail site you could have it warn you if a book doesn't meet your specific accessibility needs and I think that would incentivize more people to use and adopt accessibility metadata so that people can actually see it going forward. Thank you. And there is a panel discussion on accessibility metadata that Kai is on so you can hear all about it at that time and his thoughts and more on this topic. So now what new developments are you excited about and or following closely and John we'll start with you. We'll mention two of them. The first one is the audio book specification from W3C that's quite recent and hopefully this will allow audio books to have more consistent metadata. Right now you might get a collection of audio files but the location of the chapter titles and things like that there's no real standards so hopefully this will help with that if it's adopted by the industry. And the other one is the BRF or a braille electronic braille format standard note as it evolves. Traditionally there's been a format called BRF that's been used and it's basically a text file with spaces and line breaks and things to tell a braille printer or embosser how to print that page and it's designed for whatever size of paper that the file has been designed with but it doesn't really have structure for somebody wanting to read it with electronic braille display and there's some ongoing work happening there so that a user can hopefully do things like move by headings and that sort of thing to make it easier to access on a refreshable display. Thank you. Melissa? Okay, so I think I would answer AI voice generators so like I'm pretty curious of the purpose for more natural text-to-speech narration that would never replace human narration for me especially for fictional books but for the day-to-day work I would love to have a less robotic voice with the text-to-speech feature I know there is already some quite good natural voices out there I'm thinking here of natural reader but I'm looking for the time where these will be free and usable across all applications so yeah, I can dream. Awesome, thank you. Simon? I know that Kai will have more to say on this than I will but I'm really excited about advancements in braille displays particularly multi-line braille displays that could potentially be used to display graphics without having to print them out and design them and I think that would be an absolute game-changer other than that and more simply Windows 11 comes with some very good sounding new natural voices that sound pretty great at normal human speaking speed but also at the faster speed that I like to use voices at and I'm interested to see where Microsoft goes with that. Thank you. David? Well one thing that I dream about is if there's some standardization of audiobooks and reading platforms where your choices will be more for features rather than does one work with this type of file does one work with that type of file so I think it's heading in that direction so I look forward to that and I've also seen some pretty great electronic magnifying glasses they're kind of heavy now and expensive but if they get lighter and $10,000 anymore it would be great to have one just be able to put this thing on and actually go back to from time to time reading a print book that would be amazing so that's something I've been watching for a number of years now. Thank you. Kai? Yeah so as Simon said I'm definitely following the advancement of braille displays because just for context current braille displays generally display one line at a time but with multi-line braille displays you're able to see the content more spatially and I think there are some developments happening right now where we're actually seeing new multi-line braille displays that will be coming out soon. The other thing I'm hoping to see is more multimodal books that use sounds such as sonification for images there's some research done especially with Smith Kettlewell on how to look at maps and get the spatial layout of them auditorily kind of like walking around in a game like a first-person shooter game and so it'd be really cool to see that incorporated into books as well. I think that that's something that I think I've always advocated for and will definitely continue to do so because there's some really exciting possibilities there. I think one of my favorite examples of something like that I was working with UX Research User Research Collective and one of the things that they made was their free insights report that had a lot of charts and graphs and that was all sonified so I think well definitely and I'm hoping to see more of that in the future. Thank you and this is our last question team we made it and not seriously over time like our run through. What does an ideal reading experience look, sound and feel like to you so the sky's the limit here Melissa we'll start with you. Okay so fastly because I know that we are quite short with time I would say the ideal reading experience is to have simultaneously visual reading and also having the text to speech so verbal and having again I repeat myself but having everything in one application so yeah that's it for me. John I would say having a book that's well marked up so it has headings and tables and things marked up so that they can be indicated by assistive technology and also having the ability to choose my reading platform device I want to use it on depending on what my reading preference. Thank you. David Well when reading for pleasure I could imagine and this takes off a little bit what I said in my last comment. I'd love to see a really large maybe 15 or 17 inch very light very thin reading tablet which you with incredible anti-glare screen and I could see myself sitting on a sunny beach with a nice breeze and being able to read this it would be just wonderful to sit outside and read again. That's my dream. And clearly one that's waterproof. Oh I forgot about that. If you're going to the beach. So everyone can picture David out on the beach you know by the ocean reading. Thank you Simon. I think I'll go even a little bit further and say that I would ideally like to see content that is accessible by speech and Braille with necessary alt text and formatting but also that can be read on any device in any app because having to leave something familiar to read another app can be a huge cognitive load for some people it isn't something that really I want to do or anyone wants to do so being able to have that flexibility I think is really important. Thank you. Kai. So I think for me going more on that multimodal approach I think the next frontier to really look at and hoping that kind of experience you know is comics and graphic novels and that type of stuff and I do think that that's really important. I think it's a really important key tool and being able to build a touch graphics and to build a here different aspects of it whether that's through alt text or through SVGs that might be coded up with labels where I could touch different parts of an image and be able to have tools and projects that aim to do this that have been out or that is being worked on but right now it's a little bit of a mess there's not kind of a standard or even a single unified approach to be able to tackle this so that's something that I'm really hoping in the future where I could just you know download a comic and be able to read that. Thank you so much everyone and now we have some time to answer some questions I believe. Is that correct Lea? Absolutely yeah we said at the end of the date you know we're going to push today to quarter after the hour so we're going to use that time so if people have questions for this excellent panel please feel free to raise your hand or throw them in the chat we can announce them I know it's been a long day so I understand whatever happens Oh Kay, Kay Rollins? Hello it's me an inquisitive one so voice stream am I getting that right I wasn't sure if it was voice stream or voice stream so maybe it's voice stream voice stream okay I'm not familiar with this obviously and there was a comment I don't remember who among you said it about how voice stream interacts with BRM so I was wondering if somebody could just clarify that for us and also thank you very much for the panel it was really wonderful to hear from all of you. Well I was the one who made the voice stream comment so I can take this in short in terms of interacting with DRM it opens EPUB PDF, various other formats it has OCR built in, it opens audio files or zip folders full of audio files but it can't really open anything with DRM okay thank you but it was mentioned by a few of you as something that is a really helpful application for you yeah I think one of the things I like about it is that it doesn't give you a hard time if you, what form your file comes in so if it's a zip file I believe it reads it okay I can even read Daisy I believe if it's a bunch of separated files it can handle it so that's one of the good things about it so it's addressing that aspect that Melissa was bringing up it's one app that can do a lot of things but it can't do anything with DRM files okay thank you so much thank you Kate and it looks like we've got Elora someone named Laura Brady hi everyone thanks so much for that panel that was really amazing it was so great to hear all of your experiences I'm curious about what the publishing industry or maybe even the reading system side of things could do to better support users that maybe wasn't already mentioned I do my best to make eBooks as cleanly as possible but is there something next level that you'd like to see in terms of supporting readers I did mention something I don't know how clear I was about it but about standardization on some level and I suppose this is a dream of the future is that you'll just get the book you want and you won't be all that concerned about all the other issues and your reading system will be an experience like when you decide to go out and get yourself a television set you know you pick the features you like and the brand you like but that's that they all do what you need to do and so for me that's the dream is to have things eventually standardized to the point where you simply go get your book I guess if I can add I'm not sure if it answers your question because I would say something very obvious but I think the basic which is not we didn't attain it is to have like accessible eBob across it not only in the description but also just having good semantic tag in the eBob and all these little things which are the basic makes a massive difference and I think we can think about extra but we also need to get like these like consistently implement in the eBob production I wonder if I could ask a quick follow up question I know Kay has her hand raised but I think it's probably still raised so I'm going to try to slip one more question and is there anything that the government funders could do to better support inclusive reading is there anything is there anything that wasn't already covered that you'd like to bring up that would be helpful to the government and government support for the inclusive reading landscape I can jump in that's fine I think for me because a lot of what I've been doing especially in the last year and a half or so has been focused so heavily on image descriptions and tactile graphics and 3D printing it definitely be helpful to I guess have more resources that we can draw on for that there's still a lot of unknowns in that so I mean one of the things one of the resources that I go to to kind of bounce ideas off of and kind of just brainstorm ideas is the bunch of folks from Australia who have a tactile graphics group that meets every month and you know we're able to kind of brainstorm and ask some of those questions like what's a really good layout and you know what are some of the guidelines that work or need to be revised for 3D printing and so you know I think having more resources whether that be financial or just what are some of the things that might be really helpful Joan I would say as a quick follow up if it's possible to have since PDF is so widely used if it's possible to have processes where documents are produced with certain programs or that just that you don't end up with something that's completely inaccessible like a PDF that's just an image that either has no included text or maybe an automatic CR that potentially has errors so even if it's not an ideal ideally there'd be a HTML or a format that's more has more accessible built in now I know PDF can be done as well but it's a little bit more complex to my understanding to author that but it's a little bit more complex to have multiple formats if possible or a PDF that has basic accessibility just that there's not something that's totally totally lacking and maybe if I can add like a little thing and it goes in the same direction than the entire it's actually in the context where there's so much opportunity for individuals to have access to a specific technology and that can mean a lot of things but a lot of a specific technology is quite expensive and this is just an obstacle and yeah it shouldn't be expensive to have a disability in order to access information so yeah I guess funding directed to individual also I think that's a good point I think that's a good point excellent thank you everyone Laura are you in your question answered put your hands down so I'll say yes thank you is there any more questions from the audience or we can close her up for the day seeing no more raised hands and I can tell you that everyone on this panel will be around if after you digest some of today's talks they'll be here for you so I just want to say a quick thank you to everyone for coming today thank you to all of our industry updates and expert perspectives special thanks to Kai and Melissa for doing those excellent demonstrations which will be available on the NELS YouTube and thanks to the panel thanks to Rianne and thanks everyone for coming I'll leave it at that we've got another big day tomorrow it's not quite as packed so it'll be a little bit more breathing room but I look forward to having you back and yeah chat on Slack, email me if you have any questions if you want to hang back I'll be sitting here for a few minutes and with that I'll leave you to it to the rest of your days thank you all for your time thanks for coming take care