 So ladies and gentlemen good afternoon my name is Martin on behalf of the World Economic Forum and also CNBC welcome to our little panel here. It's nice to see that we're able to break down or break up into smaller groups like this because well it can be a little bit more casual more informal a little bit more intimate and it might help because we're talking about what potentially can be a pretty heavy topic which is biometrics could potentially be revolutionary lead to a heck of a lot of positive changes with digital ideas at the same time though there is a risk potentially if misused if mismanaged if abused well then we could potentially have things like human rights civil rights and certainly privacy problems as well so these are issues that we'll talk about along with of course the latest in technology with our panel of experts let me very quickly run through them in no particular order right next to me Bob Livingston senior VP strategic projects at Visa next to him Rob Leslie from sedici innovations next to him Dr. Rita Singh who's from Carnegie Mellon an associate research professor there and last but not least right at the very end David Brady who heads equity acuity right acuity thank you which is a Chinese-American smart camera maker so folks we've got about 45 minutes or so to spend with you a little bit shorter than a lot of other sessions I've done at Weff and what we'll do is we'll kick it off and talk among ourselves and then at some stage we'll open it up to the floor and involve and bring you folks say in and just a point of housekeeping this is being taped and recorded and I think we'll be shot out over the web so if you do have a communications device probably a good idea to either turn it off or if you really have to stay connected to turn on silent just for the duration of this of our session here and you know we've got these simultaneous translation jobbies if you so wish to use them or need to use them so we encourage you to do that so let me kick off I want to start talking about the technology itself if I could and click Joe hands to the right when you get to the top of the escalator you turn right and there's this voice recognition demonstrator how many of you have tried that okay not bad all right yeah I noticed the last couple of days that the lines have been really really long so I thought okay this must be really popular I got to check this out and try it for myself so I did and the lady just in front of me tried it out and she read a sample prepared text which got recorded and I was pretty surprised initially because it accurately predicted her gender okay maybe not that hard her ethnicity she was Caucasian her age range so I thought okay well this is pretty good stuff and then it went on though to tell the entire line of people waiting behind her that she had serious neurological issues and then she was mentally exhausted as well at which point I think the rest of the line just sort of turned around and went the other way so no let's a funny example but I guess it it speaks to the limitations of the technology right now maybe I could just sort of run down the road or whoever prefers to answer at this stage we're pretty much well beyond fingerprints retina we're getting into DNA biometrics voice recognition as well and doctor doctor sing a doctor said about that what is it what is the cutting edge right now in biometric technology anybody I think there's a lot of development work going on around facial recognition specifically the use cases you know payments would be one I'm involved in the forums initiative for the future of travel so the modernization of airports trying to get people through cues in in airports at that borders at security so that you can move faster through those those choke points and again trying to identify you as accurately and as quickly as possible is one of the key objectives okay so understood and gosh I tell you if you fly a lot you would probably want to see that technology work faster or better more efficient but what kind of technologies is it right now I could I could take a swing I mean sure the number one thing like some of the technology doctors thing is using around neural networks neural networks are blind to the actual modality so that the major innovation has been that it's possible to combine multiple modes visual voice of gate many things together and then they can be combined in a great way so usually identification we've done in context so before saying somebody was mentally ill you might guess whether they're in a hospital or not but but by the ability to combine in context a lot of different markers together would make biometrics extremely accurate how does DNA biometrics right now well DNA you have you have to go to a lab be they would be extremely accurate but it would take a day or so yeah there are biometrics such as blood flow biometrics that are also fairly accurate and so at Visa we've got a prototype where you swipe your hand through a reader and it just measures the blood flow and that identifies who you are we also have payment rings that are near field communication devices that can pay at any sort of contactless point of sale and so you can imagine a future where you've got a ring measuring your blood flow and nobody else can ever use it it's yours how extensively used is it and where right now well right now it's just in prototype mode but you asked about cutting edge and so that's where it is fair enough it's in beta and I mean your space Bob payments financial services etc that's been the industry that's been driving a lot of the development and change in biometrics but is it likely to stay that way other industries that could that could take the ball and run with it do you think well I think payments very logical place for biometrics to start it's an industry that really values security and also values convenience and biometrics actually provides both of those in a very good way the consumers understand here in China for example we've got the most exact advanced market in the world where biometrics are used every single day when consumers are using their mobile payment devices and with WeChat or Alipay or the other platforms identifying themselves at the point of sale with their thumbprint but to your question about where could it be used elsewhere this is really where biometrics I think converges with the internet of things and where you can have any sort of device any sort of object with a biometric reader with a fingerprint reader that then becomes a point of commerce at the same time we've again prototypes we've got people who've got plastic cards with fingerprint readers on them and so that's a traditional form factor but you can imagine a situation where vending machines would have fingerprint readers and then the real questions of privacy come into play where is the data stored when is it centralised when is it decentralised when do you have actual payment and identity credentials on the actual device or when do you have something that's masked or tokenised so that it can't be stolen so key question I don't mean to get the backup of our hosts here in China but what you're talking about is a massive database in China how secure is that who has access to it well I think that's a question better opposed to and financial or to 10 cent which run Ali pay and we chat pay but as of right now it has been fairly secure as a payment vehicle where that data exists beyond the actual process of payments I can't say read let me bring you in the voice recognition demonstrator I was just joking about a couple of minutes ago that that's actually you're behind that is the issue here that this is a I driven right so the more voice samples it has or collects the more accurate it can be but was that the issue with the whole you know neurological disorders and mental exhaustion thing okay so I am maybe it was right I don't know but may correct you on one point yeah it is it is a I driven but it is not data driven entirely so AI is being used to engineer the features that are then mapped to the parameters that we did use from voice so much of the much of the mapping and the accuracy of it depends on how well we are able to do the engineering to discover these micro features for voice so the way people perceive AI now is just big data throw big data at neural networks and that's AI that's not it AI is neural networks are just just tools but AI is really more than that it's what you design with those tools right so much of the profiling the technology that that is being demonstrated next door is called profiling humans from their voice and it's all about deducing all kinds of information about you from your voice for which there are signatures in your voice whether you're able to hear them or not it's going to take a while to develop that to a point where it's completely accurate and what you see there is a snapshot of where the research is right now but it is really scary to think that your voice can really reveal so much which leads about your voice about about your yourself your persona and also your environment so there are issues associated with that ethical issues but more than that I've been I mean I also have something to say about biometrics and the way we think about it not just the voice profiling so we always so we're talking about facial recognition we are talking about other kinds of biometrics fingerprint recognition behind all of that are algorithms that have been deployed and those algorithms have shortcomings right and there are as an academic I'm aware that there are there are my colleagues and many groups of researchers around the world who are working on building adversarial systems that can attack these algorithms and cause them to give wrong results whether even if they don't have access to the innards of the system even if they don't have access to the algorithms themselves they can actually break into Google speech recognizer and the examples are up on the web this is a group in Berkeley that has done this could can break into the Google speech recognizer and make it say exactly what they wanted to say so at least this question the existing technology that's being deployed today how secure or rather how hackable is it hackable is it in itself that's an issue right its accuracy is an issue but there are two sides of a coin right and we have to worry about that and there are other issues involved like ethical issues which everyone is questioning everyone is aware of so the short answer to my question how fragile or secure are these systems to hacking these days I mean what's being used is it safe yet no no no no facial facial recognition systems can be hacked if you go on to Google and search for papers that are coming up with newer and newer algorithms to hack facial deployed facial recognition systems you will find very good algorithms so David that's your space you make smart cameras right and she's saying look these images digital images can be hacked true definitely they could be hacked I mean it's an information system but when you say how safe are they they're they're safer so it's something I live half time in China half time in the US I've gotten four new credit cards in the US in the last year because my credit card was stolen I use Ali pay and we chat all the time and I feel very secure there so these things can be hacked but they're harder to hack than stealing somebody's credit card number okay good to know let's bring in Sadishi right gay nickname I thought it was Italian what you do is what your company does is you you build platforms that help people build their own digital identity explain how that works so your identity is everywhere and most of the places it is you have no control over the information that's there and most of the time you don't even know if it's right or wrong so we're building a platform that allows you to build a profile of of yourself where your information resides and whether it is right or wrong based on what you say is your version of the truth and we do that using a cryptographic protocol that doesn't require any exchange of the actual data itself so your privacy is preserved at all times so our interest in in biometrics because it's such a key piece of of you is making sure that that information stays where it needs to stay and doesn't end up leaking or being sent to other places so it's safe is what you're saying but is it necessarily accurate if a person can build whatever digital identity they want for themselves well this leads me on to what what we're working on is is a picture of the world where you have what we call levels of assurance so where your information is stored and who is in control of it and how reliable that place actually is so take your passport today as an example we don't own our passports our our passports are loaned to us by our governments and they are the custodians of our information they are the custodian of our facial biometric that is used to grant us permission when we cross a border and it's a government to government relationship that says we keep this secure and in return you allow our citizens to cross your border and do whatever they need to do when we start to think about how we're using technology today and how biometric information is being placed in our phones for example we have you know a copy of our passport for example in our in our phone and ultimately we want to get to a world where we can use our our phone as our passport to allow us to do certain things we need to make sure that the security of that device is at least as robust as the security of our physical paper passport and that the government can warrant that that data is secure and today we're not at that point the latest phones the smartphones that we have have technology in them that allows those what we call secure elements trusted execution environments to hold this information and allow under secure circumstances the interaction that needs to happen between devices in an airport your phone or devices in your bank in your phone or wherever so that that information always means he's maintained in a secure state so Robert got asked him who who it's safe okay that's that's good but who authenticates the accuracy the veracity of the data of the identity who's to say that you are you well ultimately it's the government is is warranting to another government in the case of a passport that you are you and that is generally because you've gone to a government office you've looked an official in the eye and they said yep you are the person who is in that passport you are you know female 45 years old whatever whatever it is and that information now gets inscribed in that document with a whole bunch of passive security measures that stop counterfeiting of that document we've got to essentially do the same thing for electronic devices and we're not quite at that point yet and we're getting there and but we've we've got a bit of a job to do still digital identity to be be forged I mean physical passports people have been forging that for yes since passports were invented right but digital identity on your platform no not on our platform definitely not on our platform because we don't have any data on our platform data resides in other places and all we do is compare what you have with what you have or what she has with what he has and it's cryptographically safe I was going to say in the payment space in the rest of the world visa partners with Apple pay Samsung pay Android pay and in all those cases the data on the device is tokenized so it actually doesn't reflect what said printed on your card nor can it be used on any other device it's unique for that one device so in this example if you had passport information on your phone it actually would be a sort of mast or tokenized version of your passport and then it actually couldn't be used when you need to replace it or it couldn't be used to to spoof in another location yeah I got to raise this question because we've been talking about it this week as well blockchain technology distributed leisure technology it's a buzzword it's fashionable everybody likes to claim that yes we were going down that road does it have a place and how important a place in the development further development of biometrics definitely definitely blockchain checking technology is the most advanced authentication authentication technology that we have and of course you're going to use it as a part of a solution for maintaining security that it makes it much harder to spoof because you'd have to spoof everywhere I'm going to take a completely opposite of view please because I am concerned about privacy generally and that you know our personal information slowly is being eroded and or sold or well the thought of my information my biometric information being enshrined in a blockchain forever terrifies me and I don't want it in a blockchain and when you know I'm European in Europe most people who have heard of GDPR the general data protection regulation and one of the rights you have under that is to request a ratio of your your information on demand if I put personal information into a blockchain can't be erased unless the chain itself is deleted which is which is a real challenge I would agree with you blockchains are immutable but they're not private you can actually they have to be mined in the case of cryptocurrency for example for bitcoins or whatever miners have to have access to information in order to authenticate a transaction and add it to the blockchain right so once someone has access to that information it's not it's not cryptographically hidden from anyone it's it's it's accessible the only thing blockchain guarantees is that you cannot change anything in that chain once it has been added to it so and there are negative implications to that commercially or economically I mean blockchain is actually extremely expensive to execute if it were used to develop biometrics further will that hold it back with will it hold development back anybody I think you're going to see blockchains developed in instances where they're not as sensitive per se when it comes to sort of personal very personal information in biometrics is the most personal information you can get and I think they will be held in secure very secure databases generally in probably centralized locations and they will link through APIs under secure circumstances to maybe to a blockchain that has a pseudonym of you that links to a supply chain or or a payment mechanism or whatever it is but that pseudonym is what ultimately will be the linkage back to that biometric information so we've talked about different technologies we're starting to get into issues like privacy etc I want to get to a sort of a big macro question something that we've been covering and also talking about pretty much all week long and that's how this old trade situation has kind of escalated and started blowing up Tuesday morning president decides 200 billion we're going to tariff that 25 percent well 10 and then 25 starting next January China retaliates 60 but they're going 5 and 10 so tiered and maybe not as bad as people expected but over and above and beyond that trade tariffs etc there's this whole competition rivalry between structures between systems of government and also over competition over who's going to dominate technologies of the future behind things like the fourth industrial revolution including AI robotics etc David I want to get you on this because we were talking about the soft line a couple of seconds ago does biometrics fit in there in this competition in this rivalry and you know you make smart cameras but you are a Chinese American company so in a sense it's kind of win win for you for you know well tension between the United States and China is not win win for us we would we would like to see the United States and China get along and we're talking about business you know the business shouldn't be so confrontational the development of these technologies is for the net benefit of the world so I think that it's not competition that that advances in China advances in the US benefit both countries but it's not the regulation is very different in the different countries and so as we as we as technologists or others imagine the ideal world I think like like for the government to the government in Europe to pass a law saying you have the right to be erased even if that's not technically possible governments are coming up with ideas that are not consistent with technological reality left and right and the idea that the US or China or Russia can control AI or can control biometrics that's absurd so governments will come up with these kinds of restrictions as technologists we can't build these things there's things in China that you need there's things in the US that you need if you want to build advanced technologies you need to work globally and so you know you gotta hope that the the winds of government you know behave at the speeds that they happen but the underlying relationships between people have to continue to grow all right so what you're saying basically it's this whole rivalry thing is in nobody's interest one and the approach should be global are you also saying that it's kind of pointless trying to free route or ask who is leading in biometrics nationally or even if it's even if it involves the companies and we're at their domicile whether it's the US or China well you know you know Dr. Singh talked about you know people can hack things at a much much simpler level there there's no way that one country is going to come up with an algorithm that the other country is not going to find out about that basically this stuff you know the information about how to do these things moves literally at the speed of light you know that as it's invented in Shanghai people in the west East Coast of the United States know about it 30 seconds later okay since we started getting into regulation already let's go down that row then I know that David yourself and then also Bob you've got some pretty interesting and also strong views in the sense that because the the rate and pace at which biometric technology is developing it's kind of hard for regulation to keep pace is that right it's very hard for regulation to keep pace there are still laws in the United States for example let's say that you have to sign for an account and that actually exists in China as well with the new credit card where you need a wet signature and that's just not how the world is operating usually today as in an ink signature as an ink signature right there's a digital signature which works just as well but I think that they're to your question about rivalry as well as this question about regulation there actually are common sets of principles in terms of how something like biometrics can be used that almost every government is going to agree upon at a very high level in terms of if a customer if a consumer is using biometrics for a commercial application they should have control over when that happens and the world economic form as an example with the fourth industrial revolution committee or council they have this we have this ability to start to create a forum for different governments and private sector and academia to talk about what should those principles and standards be and potentially that could help diffuse some of this rising tension to have a common set of understandings about when and where should biometrics and other sort of new technologies be used okay so this would be sort of like be a code of conduct it's almost it's almost like a code of conduct yeah but but not legally winding no it's voluntary and from FISA's perspective the best standards are always voluntary and open so that they're used everywhere around the world nobody really benefits if you have a technology that you can use in China but you can't use it in Brazil right it means that in a global environment where people travel you're limited in terms of the applicability of it so that that ability to have something open and common is is key okay whatever the these principles are that eventually end up being agreed on what happens when the issue of sovereignty kicks in what happens if China for example which is very much in the lead as you suggested at least in terms of payments with biometrics what if they don't sign on well that's a risk with any sort of international agreement but I think we won't know that until we start to have that conversation and say what are all each government trying to ensure for their population in terms of how biometrics are used at that very highest level as soon as you get to anything below principles more granular than principles there will never be agreement how close are we to that sort of agreement deal or even document well one example is on the Internet of Things which is a very amorphous term that can refer to almost anything but is in many ways connected with biometrics the WEF has a council that's going to be established that's going to be working on that in the next few months and that's that's coming down the pike will it actually have an real impact in the next six months I would doubt it it's too soon but you can't actually create common language and common purpose unless you start the conversation how much input the civil society have in this or is it having in this well the in the the chart of the world economic form it's very much to have all stakeholders present so it is government it is commercial interests and it's other representatives of civil society whether it be NGOs or universities etc is it going to address the issues of issue of privacy it must I think it should particularly for biometrics privacy is one of the most important issues right now actually consumers love biometrics in the payment space right so when visa does a survey worldwide 86% of people say that they want to use their thumbprint or their retina in order to ensure that their identity isn't stolen and a transaction is fast and everybody understands that but as soon as privacy issues start to come to the fore and they haven't yet on this front that trust will dissipate and we don't want that selfishly as a payments company that is that's relying on this okay it is on the technology itself is it going to function something like the FAA to police whether the technology works as advertised on the box because I mean any number of examples a lot of people can think of or imagine where I mean the if the technology gets wrong you know the results could be pretty embarrassing at the very least if not catastrophic I think for that specific example that's actually too granular for a multilateral organization to try to should be left to governments then I think that that's something ultimately when you're talking about consumer protection that falls under a traditional national governments purview David what do you think I think the the issue is you have to have the process to resolve issues when something goes wrong so things will go wrong and so it's really getting to that level of knowing how to knowing how to fix it when it goes wrong we thought China uses face detection and fingerprint detection at the borders recently I came into China with a beard with a beard okay and you know like you're not you and there's a process to resolve well I could be me with a beard and that you know it's not the technology is not going to be accurate it's going to get it wrong so it's like when somebody the technology says you're mentally ill don't immediately go to the hospital maybe get a second opinion did the technology get wrong with the beard you know yeah they it took me you know 20 minutes or something to talk about that I could have be the same person with a beard and you had to convince a human being yeah oh my goodness okay might be a good time now to try and bring some of you and everybody have a question the only thing we ask is if you could raise your hand I think they've got they're roving mics that'll come to you so tells who you are where you're from who you represent and also who your question or comment is is meant for that'll be helpful anybody want to kick it off please sir anytime I walk anywhere to get into China they took all 10 of my fingerprints yeah you go through all these different use cases why should I trust that as a password now that it's effectively a shared secret that other people have and who would you like to answer that for you anyone anybody have a crack I agree with you completely and and that is one of the problems is that you have a secret that is openly on view for everybody my fingerprints can be 3d printed unused on on scanners and this may be one of the things that governments need to actually get together and figure out that we will for example my my country Ireland they don't have my fingerprints they don't have my my my DNA they don't have a whole bunch of stuff about me China knows more about me the US knows more about me than my own country but maybe you know governments need to step up and say we're going to take control of the biometric information of our own citizens and we're going to make it available under secure processes and structures to those organizations who need access to it in the form of a token that can be used for a specific purpose for a specific time and do something along those lines the danger is you end up with every country taking everybody's information because they think they have to have it I could that's a interesting question with a lot of angles I mean the one hand on the one sense you know your fingerprint can be can be stolen but in the other sense like if I wear a ring to me that could be a little bit too close to having an embedded chip you know which which wouldn't be stolen but I wouldn't be comfortable with the thing is that first of all you have multi-factor identification that somebody just having your fingerprint hopefully they'd have to have your phone they might have to have other factors that would also indicate that they're you and then and then the other thing is that still stealing your fingerprint 3D printing your fingerprint is harder than stealing your credit card and so it's a question of convenience versus you know balance of other ways that you could be spoofed so I've got a question and Rob you're talking about this it sounds sort of mission impossible right create a mold or 3D print your digits and you know you're home in a way Rita though how difficult or easy is it to forge a voice signature is it is it really that much harder it's at this time impossible to replicate the nuances of the human voice at the micro levels but somebody records your voice and then replace the recording they've got your voice that is a real concern once they have they have your voice and we use our voice very freely because we are not aware of the potential of voice to identify us in many different ways so we use Alexa we use Siri and and I'm not trying to put those down all I'm trying to say is that we use it freely we get our answers but we don't worry about what has happened how we got the answers what has happened to our voice it's gone to some server has it been deleted from that server who has access to it and what if tomorrow I want to use a voice based authentication or verification system can I ever be certain that it will never be had by someone who has gotten hold of my voice from that server so I'm sorry from this YouTube video or from this room you know biometrics like fingerprints are very much within your control and you can decide whether you want to give them out or not consciously you can decide whether you want to give out your blood sample or DNA but you cannot not talk you have to talk and people are walking around with phones that can record your voice at any time and I'm developing this technology for profiling humans it's like think of it as what x-ray is to medicine it can look into you into your persona so pretty much anyone who walks by you hears you speak could record you and have access to what's happening inside you and what can they do with it it's a worrisome thing right it's a scary thought anyway yeah and now go ahead no I I have a lot to say I mean I please please please please so yeah a lot of people have brought this up and as academics there there isn't much we can do about it but one of the things I worry about is we keep talking about the user biometrics protection of identity and so on and so forth but the people whose biometrics we are talking about are for the most part not aware of its potential be it your face DNA fingerprint whatever the general person out on the road doesn't know how potent it is and you know I mean how restrictive it can be how how how misused it can be by people so they give out these things freely if they knew I if they knew about all of this I can imagine a group of people who would just you know go up in arms and stand at the airport and say I'm not going to give out my personal data does there need to be fine print in this sort of technology then I'm sorry does there need to be fine print in this sort of technology then so people are there is there and I mean that fine print has to come in the form of awareness the media and as academics ourselves have to build that awareness in in people and then use their information their information is like their money and if they if they don't know that they are giving out this valuable information it's like stealing their money right Bob does Visa do that? steal people's money no no no no make sure make sure the fine print is there Visa's the airport our banks do that yeah our our clients in Bates but but where I was going as well is it's very similar to what David said earlier is that it's what creates the security is a multi-factor authentication right it's your fingerprint yes which governments have but it's also your phone and it's your geolocation signal saying you are at a store where they're saying this transaction is happening all those things come together and it makes it incredibly high likelihood that that is you making that transaction at that point in time so from a payments standpoint it's incredibly powerful especially compared to any alternative compared to a signature on a back of a credit card a fingerprint is a much more secure way to ensure that somebody is who they say they are but with that being said outside of payments in security areas etc I think there's many more layers of authentication that are needed in protection of that data but that's that's sort of a problem if you will for governments really to focus on to ensure their citizens that they're gathering all that information and they'll keep it safe okay Rita forgot to ask your your voice recognition demonstrate the technology how based on the database you have of samples have you been able to calculate how accurate it is it's an insane thing at this time this is just four years old it is where DNA was in the 1980s we've just scratched the surface it's not perfect right now but one day it will get very accurate I have no doubt about that could you put a number on it now though how accurate it is high 90s high 90s for most of the parameters including your personality including the fact whether you're neurotic or not it can't be more suddenly you can imagine that it can be more consistent than physicians and clinicians especially for personality and behavior not to criticize physicians and clinicians if you take the opinion of multiple physicians for the same individual they will not exactly coincide they will differ so human beings are not very consistent in making that kind of judgment so what you do I mean your technology does it have potential applications in let's say medical diagnostics do you think I think so I think machines can be very much more consistent to begin with and so they provide a good platform for the doctors to reference their opinions against time for sir in the back Hi I'm I'm Risalat from Bangladesh and I'm a global shaper with the New York hub right now so many of you are probably familiar with Professor Yuvonne Harari's work is the author of Sapiens and I'm reading his current book right now and in it he makes the case that the merger of infotech and biotech would essentially you know raises the possibility that humans can be hacked right so so if we look at the last few years of how basically aggregated social media data like social data about us has been weaponized for manipulating people psychologically profiling people in in election situations if we take what the work you're doing Rita with like voices I was talking to a founder of biotechnology and neuro technology organizations who are aggregating those kinds of data and as we have more biomarkers and stuff like that in the coming decades if you use those to kind of do the same kind of profiling it could really have a crazy kind of dystopian future where we can be hacked right so I just wanted to hear your perspective about that potentiality and how we can form the kind of whether it's global norms and other other agreements that could protect us against that kind of eventuality great question anybody in particular would like to address that I agree I think we're not far away you know all of the piece parts that you need are potentially there it comes down to an ethical question at the end of the day is this acceptable for me it's absolutely not acceptable and you know discussions on this level happen that forums like the world economic forum and I think you know if we can build consensus that this is a line we're not going to cross you know for the use for example the the use of drones for targeting of somebody because I know what your facial template looks like but these are the kind of things that we absolutely should not allow who's going to police that though who should police that is global bodies like maybe the UN or you know that try to build consensus David you're naughty this is a really really great question but I think the answer to the question is in your question when we talk about social norms hacking is this thing where you know traditionally like if you have a rock and there's a plate glass window you don't throw the rock through a plate glass window but somehow hacking is emerged is this thing where people feel like if a system can be broken somebody's going to go break it yeah that's true but we don't do that because we're a society that works together that social norms develop so somehow we need to develop a social consensus that there are ways that people behave that involve protecting each other and at the at the core thing is that if people can be hacked we protect each other so that if somebody is being bullied or being harmed or being their identities being stolen we come together as a society to protect them rather than just say we're the kind of people where if somebody can break a plate glass window they're going to do it so not so much laws but etiquette is what you're saying yeah wow okay probably got time for one last question from the floor may I like to have a go sir please just a simple question the quite exciting and I think it was quite exciting and at the same time scary talks and I was just wondering how we can continue to lead simple and ordinary life that we are enjoying right now I mean can we wear a mask and that will be a solution or what else I mean good question I mean social media and in many senses is a mask right do you have a cell phone start by throwing it away right I don't have one I think life is just going to go on getting more complicated the more technology we have the more complicated our life becomes so we're just talking about biometrics but there's lots of other technologies coming up that are changing our lives starting from smart cities to your internet of things and everything that affects your daily life is in your room in your bedroom in your bathroom everywhere is that going to make our life simple well you'll have to change your philosophical definition of simple to get there but I don't think our lives are going to become simpler they may be become easy they may they may become easier to live our what we define as quality of life may go up but simpler no things will only become more complicated almost inevitably yeah inevitably all right what I'd like to do before we wrap up is maybe just go all the way down the row last thoughts that you want to leave this audience with with regards to everything we've been talking about Bob well I think just from from my perspective the real value here in this conversation and all the conversations happening here at the forum are trying to create those international norms you could call the etiquettes the first principles upon which all of this complexity can be managed and the potential downside can be mitigated okay all right Rob I think biometrics are an incredibly powerful tool you know when you think about financial inclusion you know that there's 1.7 people billion people on the planet that don't have an identity you know creating an identity for them using biometrics getting them into the financial system giving them opportunity is something that biometrics can enable but as Rob said it needs a structure around it so that they are used ethically and properly and we don't end up with you know the rogue hacker suddenly selling you know 2 billion people's biometric information on the dark web that would be catastrophic Rita and I think I think there we need to devise ways to regulate the use of biometrics more strictly and prevent misuse by societies not just individuals or businesses okay David last word I think this idea of the social norms and etiquette is critical but the idea of the competition between nations feeds the idea that we take separate paths and maybe encourages if you get nations acting as rogue hackers then the system becomes very very dangerous and so somehow we need to find a way for nations to come together instead of to push nations how much do you fear that's exactly what could happen with biometrics a lot I guess but but on the other hand I have hope that that won't happen that we can that we can come together instead excellent all right folks listen we're just about done thank you for your time to our panelists and also for you for for taking part we'll see you next year I guess thank you