 So with all the fancy introductions out of the way welcome back to the podcast Matt Reynolds and Anne-Marie Mohan Matt welcome Thanks for having me and Marie. Welcome. It's a pleasure to be here. Pleasure's always mine today We're here by the talk about bio plastics and bio plastics first of all As I say it out loud sounds like a what an oxymoron oxymoron bio plastic anyway They were going to be the sober bullet that was going to solve every problem They were going to be the film they were going to be the resin They were going to be things that we were going to use that was going to be renewable and everybody was excited about it Whether it was 10 15 years ago, and I feel like everyone started throwing there aren't the budgets and things at it So I guess to start before we really get into it. Why was that the case? Well one thing that really captured Everyone's attention about bio plastics is that they're made from a renewable resource versus being made from petroleum So they use sugarcane. They use corn and now they're even using more cellulose feedstock like Wood chips and things like that. So it's made from a renewable resource And not only are they a renewable resource, but because they are they sequester carbon So they take carbon in rather than emitting it. So that's another advantage and As we moved along in the development of bio plastics There came technology called drop-in plastics or bio plastics where they have the same functionality and Same properties as a petroleum based plastic. So with the early PLA or poly Lactic acid which was the biggest thing to happen like back in 2000 or so The problem was that you could make the bottle. It didn't have the same properties It was really sensitive to heat and then it also would contaminate the recycling stream But for a consumer you couldn't really tell the difference in bottles. So they'd just throw it in with recycling But with drop-in bio plastics, you have the same functionality They can be recycled and so that was a huge advancement in the technology interesting so that the good Plastics would contaminate the bad plastics essentially bad being my turn for in the recycling team, but this stuff from natural resources I guess because it's not the same Interesting. I wouldn't have thought of it that way. I guess I just figured it would fizzle out once it got to the Recycling functionally. It's the same but you know as soon as it gets to to the mirf then that's where trouble occurs Right the mirfs. There's a lot of trouble at the mirf and we've understood that as we've done a series of these podcasts All right, so this stuff is awesome. Why isn't it everywhere? Why are we not seeing it on every shelf? Why isn't it? Well, I mean one thing that's changed since you mentioned 2000 to the early 2000s is Um, you know plastics in general have just really taken a perception beating You know So the focus on sustainability as it pertains to packaging is now You know the eye is cast on plastics and bioplastics are still plastics They're still they're still there's still a kind of an alphabet soup of p e p e t all these kinds of You know letters that confuse consumers and and scare consumers because they're not exactly sure how to recycle it And as emory said some of them can't be recycled. I think early on there was this misconception that You know because the bios in the word they assume they're biodegradable right so over the years We had to be real careful about defining what biodegradable is just because it's bioplastic doesn't make it biodegradable necessarily And the differences between compostability and backyard versus, you know industrial compostability and biodegradability. These are all very kind of Venn diagrams that overlap a little bit, but you know, they're not the same thing So it's further confusing to the consumer. It costs more bioplastics costs more. I mean, that's a Always the driver. Yeah. So petroleum based virgin plastic is really high quality and it's super cheap the way it's It's made right now and there's a lot of efforts right now to kind of level that playing field and create some you know, uh, you know Make make sure that the the finances or the economics isn't the only driver there, you know, and there's some worry about You know food is a worry if if if bioplastics are coming from corn and from You know sugarcane, you know Is that eating into the world's food supply now, you know, that's a that's a it's a genuine concern I think since then we've realized that the percentage is really really tiny That's actually eating into what potentially could be food and now as and re said now you're starting to add cellulose non food cellulose food waste or Or non food, which is wood chips or food waste as you know second, you know post post use food especially I mean imagine like Brewers giving up their you know spent barley or something like that So so so that's not as much of a concern But it was just one of many that kind of pumped the brakes on what we thought in 2002 or something like that would be This silver bullet And yeah eating up r&d budget very slowly over the course of time is what's happened instead of it being some big You know immediate threshold moment. Yeah Okay, so we So I guess we use this last these last, you know decade or whatever to Well, we didn't we didn't have to spend the r&d unfortunately But now that they've kind of ironed this all out and learned all this Are there some examples now that we have out there in the marketplace that Are finding ways to apply this? absolutely and one of the Biggest suppliers of bioplastics That i'm aware of where we've really seen a lot of applications both in region and in flexible is Braskham And they do a drop in bioplastics. They do drop in polyethylene and We have several examples of what they're doing originally They were supplying part of the feedstock for Coca-Cola's plant bottle They also worked with the company in the uk To make a reusable bottle. So it was for tourists there who would get a water bottle and then Just litter so there's a lot of litter from tourists and now you can get the bottle filled and then reuse it. It's a very durable Recyclable and reusable package So delicious almond milk is used for their packaging There's a toothpaste tube from Ireland that's using The Braskham drop in bioplastics. So yes, we definitely have applications now You say that That coca-Cola was using braskham. Are they not still I remember and I remember you just Obviously saying 30 seconds ago, but I also remember reading this they were using them and and now it seems like here Are you implying that they're not anymore? Well, what's really exciting is just recently they were able to come up with or or crack the code on engineering a completely Bioplastic bottle plant-based bottle. So formerly they were using 30 bioplastic and I don't know It's been maybe 12 years that they've been developing this lot of r&d And they switched and I I don't know exactly why they made the switch or You know, they were looking for suppliers. They were investing in different companies But now they're using 30 hardwood from forestry and sawmill sidestreams And then 70 percent is now from corn and sugarcane, but it is not braskhams It's a different technology that they're using And then at the same time some Tory beverages also just announced that they have completed a 100 percent plant-based bottle now in their case They're using 30 percent material from molasses Which is very interesting and they were doing that before and then 70 percent is from non-food feedstock So they were They both kind of hit the finish line at the same time, but it's very exciting Yeah, that is now for for Coca-Cola, for example, are they I Will admit I don't drink a lot of soda. Is this just I know I've seen with like the disani and stuff like that Are they able to use this across their product line? Or is this something that's something like a water? Like I mean Just the different beverages have a different effect in the bottle or can they use their whole product line in these bottles? My understanding is that they could use it across the bottles Right now they're waiting for a commercial scale up of this technology But their goal really isn't to replace what they have now. It's to be another option So they're trying to reach all these sustainability goals. And if I you know look at my notes here They've said that their strategy is to use 70 percent to 80 percent recycled PET and then use We advance recycling and renewable materials for the other 30 percent. So they're not Moving to plant-based, but it's an addition to Okay, another tool in the toolkit. Yeah, I was gonna say so it's another way to meet a certain number or a certain goal And I understand that Okay, so are there I guess the What I'm thinking is are there other kinds of bioplastics besides these I guess what we've been calling drop-ins Things that you know that can go with PE or PET being used at the marketplace Yeah, there's a lot being done with uh, you know starches thermoplastics or excuse me. Uh, yeah thermoplastic starches I just covered one. Uh, I think it was a year ago now though It was with sealed air and it was a pasta company out of seattle called kuchina fresca Hopefully i'm pronouncing pronouncing that correctly. I feel like I've had that before. Yes possibly Yeah, I mean they sell it out of like that pike place market or whatever. So But they the litting material it was a thermoplastic tray with pasta inside and I don't remember if it was nap It could have been nap of modified atmosphere, but uh, it was a matter of the litting material turning to this thermoplastic starch That was an interesting and it wasn't the full amount. It was a percentage of it using it But then on the subject of starches, there's also, you know, a lot's being done with potatoes potatoes starch And there's a few different versions One of them's water potato that uses resonance It's a biologic with the the logic with a q from new plastic plastic with a q Sorry, I had to look at my notes for that now There's a reason and that's yeah 20 to 30 percent of the of the pack itself The pouch is is from that tps or a potato based starch so and then also Alexia potatoes from land Watson are using a potato based starch in the pouch So the interesting thing there is you've got potatoes in In the pack and the pouch is made from potatoes in a sense or at least a portion of it So there's some some circularity there. I was going to say that's yeah that that's that that seems very circular Um having potatoes and potatoes So I guess are there to kind of Put a button on this discussion bioplastic So there are others out there that we haven't touched on because so far Like I had no idea about the potatoes I didn't know about the wood and the cellulose So I'm learning at least somebody out there is definitely learning along with me So there are other ones out there that would be noteworthy that we should get out I mentioned that the one of the early misconceptions is that all bio bioplastics were You know biodegradable by nature and they're not but as Anne Marie knows that at least one or two of them are So I think one of them was yes, there's a really exciting new technology that Has been in development for quite a few years And uh, it's called pha the resin is called pha and I can't tell you I know what it stands for but I can't say highly hydro alkanoid Um, and it's made from a naturally occurring organism, which is One step beyond what we've been seeing and what's really noteworthy about it is that it is marine biodegradable um one company that's been working with Danimer scientific, which is one of the biggest companies that i'm aware of that's working on this technology is Frito light And they just released a compostable package made from this pha material The product is off the eaten path. So Some people may remember that years ago PepsiCo was really ahead of its time in creating compostable Snack bags But the problem at the time was that it was too loud So they fixed that And uh, so this is a very exciting development So that yeah, they did get the sound out of sunships people were very unhappy that they're Potato chip that or their sun chip bag. Excuse me. It was too loud, which in and of itself is hilarious because Priorities, right? Yeah priorities and chip bags are exactly silent as anyone who's ever been in a movie theater would know And bachardi is also using this technology too. Yeah, so it's big between frito lay and bachardi Those are two big brands. Yeah Fantastic And I I guess to kind of wrap up and again I thank amory and matt for your time is that one thing that you've said a lot And I don't know that I've really highlighted or we've highlighted enough is marine biodegradable from what I understand by saying That is that that's something that In the end will not harm the ocean, correct? That's my understanding of it. I mean that's and that's the biggest thing with classics That's the biggest thing that we're we've always hearing is that at the end of the day. Yes We would we see it in landfills and stuff like that, but then you see these pictures of these massive You know Plotilla, thank you of plastic out in the ocean so that marine biodegradable is a huge thing that I know came up often and it's really exciting so that we won't Hopefully continue to harm the oceans in the future so that that would no longer be a drawback So again, thank you amory. Thank you matt for joining us and go out there and get some bio plastics