 Mae'r llynu drosrwynt yma gwaith am gymhreffydd cymaintol iawn i fynd. Felly'r anion dim ond. It's good to see you. Sorry to get your name wrong. OK, so... Can we go live then, please Aron? We are live, thank you. We are live. Good. Good afternoon and welcome to this meeting of the licensing committee. My name is Councillor Anna Bradnam, and I'm the Chair of the licensing committee. A few points of housekeeping for everyone, whether you all have been on your own. dda ar gym gearshyn was Whether you are currently behind a chamber or virtually please make sure you do not switch your microphone on unless you are invited to speak Those who are participating virtually should if possible use a headset microphone With those attending virtually indicate a wish to speak by the use of chat in the team's meeting will monitor those ag i eitwfor i gwerth gyda'u ei nodw'r cythigion i'n dweud? Roedd hynny i'n gennym eu nodw'r cyfeidio aio. Gweithio eich cyfrant mwy o'n gweithio yn ei rhwng. Roeddwn i'n Majesty, ac rwy'n beth sy'n gallu ysgrifft mai wedi gwasanaeth i gyd, a wnaeth hi ni'n brif yn oed yn sgwrdd? Gweithio eich cyfrant o'n gweithio yn y bobl ac yn y gweithi gymaint yn y cyfraddol, i'n gweithio ar ychydig o'nd i'r cyfrannu. Rhaid i fi'n fawr i'ch gweithio y dyfodol y teulu ar y gwaith yma a'r dyfodol yn dweud. Mae hyn yn cymhredu bywyr fawr iawn, ac mae'r gweithfeydd yn ei bod yn fawr i'r gweithfeydd. Mae'r fawr i'r gweithfeydd o'r gweithfeydd, oherwydd yr oedd yn swydd, yma'r cyflaenau yn fawr ei fod yn gwirionedd ac yn fawr i'ch gweithfeydd. Rhaid i fi'n gweithfeydd arwain yn gwirionedd i'r gweithfeydd i'r gweithfeydd. Gallwch yn ni fydd ymlaen o'r modd cyfeirio yr unrhywbeth pan bwysigol rhywunol yn roi gael i fwyddu ysgrifennu. A'r hynny yng Nghyrch gyfaint o'u gwybod, y pwy fyddu'r byddwch ddod yn ei wneud amlwn i ymgyrch. Gwch yn nesaf.. ..ynd eich cyflawn ysgrifennu ymlaen yra, Rachel Jackson, ac ymlaen ymlaen o'r gyfrifitingol yr Unedig, ac mae'r cyfrifitingol poorwella… ..yny'r cyfrifitingol yn meddwl o'r cyfrifitingol. First of all, apologies for absence. I have apologies from Councillor Alex Marlion and Councillor Clare d'Elderfield. Do you have any others? Thank you, Chair. Yes, I've also got apologies from Councillor Joes Hales and Councillor Nigel Clayton. Gavin Clayton, apologies, Chair. Thank you very much. So, declarations of interest. Do any committee members have any interests that they would like to declare in relation to items on the agenda? I can't see any hands raised and I can't see any online. Is there anything on the chat? Okay, thank you. So, first substantive item then, minutes of the previous meeting which was held on Tuesday the 7th of September at 2pm. Members may remember that it was a restrained meeting because many of the items we actually deferred to this meeting. So, does anybody have any matters of accuracy with those minutes? Councillor Handley? Just to say that I actually am not listed as present when I was actually there. You're going to need to move your microphone a bit closer, Councillor. I can't hear you. I'm not listed as being present and I was present. I will add you to that because I remember you being there. Any other additions? Okay, so with that, are you happy that I signed those as a true record of the meeting then, members? If you could show by hands. Next item then is the Hackney carriage and private hire policy second review. So, following the meeting in September we agreed that a workshop would be arranged to enable members to discuss the proposed amendments. And that workshop took place in October and the agreed recommendations can be found at page 9 onwards. And I will point out to you the format of that page. The existing policy runs down the left hand side of the page and the decisions of that workshop which would in theory be for ratification at this meeting are on the right hand side unless we have further discussion. So, one aspect that members will however be asked to consider is the request to allow diesel hybrid plug-ins to be licensed. And this is to allow the trade some flexibility whilst ensuring the emissions meet the standard set in the policy. And today we have Mr Paul Clare and Mr Andrew Cundell from Panther Taxis who have requested this amendment to the policy and to explain the rationale. So, first bit I'd like to ask the lead officer Rachel Jackson to introduce the report. And then I'll ask the gentleman from Panther Taxis to address the committee if that's okay with you gentlemen. Great, you look very far away down at the end. So, Mr Jackson would you like to present your report please? Thank you chair. Following the licensing committee on the 7th of September 2021 the committee agreed to some amendments in the policy. As you have mentioned already these changes were the fixing of plates, CCTV, right to work evidence and tax conditionality requirements. These implementations have been reflected in our current policy. However, as the chair has already mentioned the committee wished to defer some aspects to enable a workshop for members to consider matters further. The act of the workshop and agreed in principle amendments to those deferred items are attached as the chair has said as Appendix A to the report. It is requested that members approve the amendments today. A further request of the workshop again as the chair has just referred to regarding Panther Taxis request to permit plug-in hybrid diesel engine vehicles as of the 1st of December. Because as you'll note from the agenda papers the proposal is as of the 1st of December there will be no newly licensed diesel engines so again this will have some flexibility. As you say our representatives can arrive from Panther Taxis and are available here to address the committee and hopefully address any concerns you may have. And if there are no questions that does conclude my introduction. Thank you very much Mr Jackson. OK so I just want to refer us briefly if I may to page 67. This is where the summary of the environmental conditions, the table exists and that refers to the policy, the rationale and the implementation date. So previously we had set a date for all Hattie carriage and private hire vehicles licensed for the first time by this authority to be zero or ultra low emission with effect from the 1st of December 2021. And this is one of the aspects that we're seeking to change. OK so Mr Paul Clare would you like to come forward and explain why you've requested that should be delayed. And also can I just say thank you so much for your very thorough response to every single point on the consultation which I very much appreciate and for your narrative email afterwards. It's so helpful so thank you very much. No problem thank you very much. And thanks for having us here today. Just like to reassure everybody before we start we're fully behind the green agenda that you guys have got to exceed to going forward. Anything I say is not intended to push that back and further we're very pleased that you've given and continuing to give consideration to the trade as it recovers from COVID which has been very problematic. It continues to be so. We were not unhappy with your previous decision or idea to ban the buying of diesels until 2023 but noted with our arguably slightly more intimate knowledge of vehicles that are available to the trade that to implement that would mean you're in fact denying the trade the chance to purchase from a small band of vehicles. The models of which examples of the models of which I've supplied previously that are plug in diesel hybrids and are in fact the sort of vehicles that you wanted the trade to be buying. We all wanted the trade to be buying as of December 1 upcoming. So by banning the purchase of diesels across the board we felt you're inadvertently maybe well definitely but maybe hadn't been in your thought process denying the drivers the chance to buy the small band of diesel hybrids. Now as it happens most of the plug in diesel hybrids hybrids are and I think I've supplied this as well come back up under 50 milligrams per kilometre in their emissions which as we sit here today the vehicles certification agency have they currently categorize and again this is in your policy because they currently categorize a ultra low emissions vehicle as under 75 and that was due to be changed likely to be changed this year. That hasn't happened I've checked with the vehicles typical for certification agency that hasn't dropped as they expected to under 50. However virtually all of the plug in hybrid diesel vehicles that you're inadvertently potentially denying the trade buying do fall below the 50 anyway. We then had so so that was the that was the the thread of my of my latest correspondence and happy to try and answer any questions about that if you wish. We then had some further thoughts and I'll just indulge you you may tell me to you may take no notice but we had some further thoughts since I since I wrote in those being that would it maybe a better tactic stance. To allow the drivers to buy hybrid vehicles for these two years that we're now talking about. So that anything below 99 emission grams per kilometre would be allowed and you would then and drop the diesel idea the banning of diesel idea and but you would then be giving. The drivers quite a few more options while still being able to look the public in the eye and say you're you're well on the way to move into to you know on your green agenda all these cars would then be hybrid vehicles. You probably only if I thought I thought I can't do but I thought would be to move if you did that to move your four year age rule out to six years for a couple of years and the logic behind that would be that would really open up the market for drivers to buy hybrid vehicles. So everything that's categorised as low emissions under 99 grams per kilometre and and in doing so you would get them buying the cars at the sort of age that when the policy in in all likelihood does come in in two years time they'll be ready to change their vehicles. Once one tell you is knowing the behaviour of the drivers as we do if you moved your age limit out to six years allow them to buy under 100 gram hybrids. You would get an ultimately you would get a quicker change over in that medium term to the fully electric or the ultra low emissions. Rather than leaving it at four in which case the driver habit will be to change just before the rule comes in and then sit on that car for quite some time before changing to electric or or you live. So those are our thoughts. Our first thought was if you do implement the diesel thing please don't prevent the drivers from buying the diesel plug in hybrids as that's probably against the addicts of your own policy and quest. And secondly would it be better would it be worth a chat thinking about implementing it as a hybrid only policy and dropping the no diesel element rules. That's where I am. When you guys went for the diesel thing the no diesel thing one of the things you may or may not have realised is that many diesels these days are particularly the ones in the age range that the drivers are buying at the moment the sort of 16, 17, 18 plates and newer. Many of them have got SCR technology in them which is selective catalytic reduction technology which don't ask me how it works. I don't know but to me and you on the street it's the the ad blue thing that you put in to your vehicle that runs alongside your fuel system and you tell you more about how it works than me. What it does do is it brings the emissions ratings of many of the diesels right down and the actual argument between petrol and diesel which is that which is the dirtier is is a very tight argument swings either way in a lot of people's minds as given that technology. So again just banning diesels was always arguably a bit marginal. Thank you. Thank you very much Mr Clair. I hope I'm not the only person on this committee who recognises your greater understanding of either technology but also the buying pattern of the drivers concerned. So can I just clarify I will come to you Councillor Hunt. You asked us and that's in the papers don't prevent drivers from buying diesel hybrids so in other words delay the requirement to be all electric or you live from December 2021 to December 2023 but still on the table. But you're highlighting because of the buying pattern of drivers you're suggesting we separate out the diesels from the hybrids but we haven't got that as a request on the papers which is slightly tricky isn't it. But and you're also suggesting we could consider moving the age limit to six years for a couple of years to allow this buying pattern to happen and but keep and also change the maximum emissions to less than 100 grams at milligrams per kilometre. Have I understood you correctly. Yeah pretty much if you're if you're keeping the diesel the no diesel thing on the table please don't ban the hybrids within that is one stance and then there's the alternative stance of six year age rule. And allow the drivers to get drop the diesel and petrol argument and just allow the drivers to get a hybrid that comes in at under 99 under 100 grams per kilometre which is what the great and the good except as low emissions. That's what's catarised by the vehicle certification agencies as low emissions currently by doing the six year thing. We believe it will aid the speed of the eventual move over to the cars. We all really want to get the the electrics and the and the EU labs assuming the infrastructure is in place. That's another argument altogether. That's another thing again. But yeah you've understood that correctly. Good thank you. Thank you. Councillor Hunt. Thank you chair but I wonder if it might be better if we have the other public speaker first as he may in fact address my question. We could. I don't think he wants to. I think he was supporting Mr Clare. They're both from Pants of Texas. Yeah thank you I'd like to thank the speaker and acknowledge that I do appreciate the practical difficulties that in acquiring super vehicles that our decision could make today. But I thought it's important that we make sure that members of the committee are in favour with the operating characteristics of plug-in hybrid vehicles. Now when you see plug-in hybrid vehicles advertised they do have very impressive numbers. 50 grams. 120 150 miles per gallon. But what you have to realise is that plug-in hybrid vehicle has a relatively small rechargeable battery and a petrol diesel engine. And the range of electricity is about typically about 30 miles maybe 35. After that you're running a petrol diesel engine and you're getting about 40 miles per gallon. So in order to meet those impressive looking figures that are published you basically have to be driving a relatively small number of miles in between recharges. And that might be 45 miles 50 miles something like that. And if you're exceeding that I'm afraid I have no idea what a typical cab does in a day. But if you're exceeding that in between recharges you are probably going to be doing worse emissions than an ordinary petrol diesel car. And almost certainly worse than an ordinary hybrid car and non plug-in hybrid car. And that's because a plug-in hybrid has a very heavy battery it has to move around and that battery is empty for most of the day. So that is why I'm slightly cautious about this proposal. Now there are you know a couple of other points which I'd make which is most plug-in you might say well okay you might be able to recharge it during your lunch time or maybe you could. But most plug-in hybrid vehicles do not have the rapid type recharge facility so they're kind of several hours to recharge. And another characteristic is that in the winter when you're using the heating that reduces the electric range because it's electrically powered. So you have to be very careful. I know the figures the official figures are that it does 50 or whatever it is emissions but that's only if you drive it in a certain way. And they're really aimed at commuters who are going to charge it up overnight, drive 10 miles to work, drive home again and charge it up again. If you're a professional driver flying the streets all day I wonder whether it's actually a good idea. I will say one positive in favour of them which is that you do get to choose at least on those models where you run the engine. So you could for example choose to use the engine out of town and use the battery in town where you care more about particulars and so on. So it's not sorry hasn't ended up really being a question. It's really more to hopefully illuminate people here who may not be as familiar. I've driven one for many years so I'm quite familiar with the pros and cons of plug-in hybrid vehicles. That's really helpful. Thank you Councillor Hunt. And I trust Mr Clare that sort of does that chime with your understanding of how a taxi driver might use such a vehicle and whether it would be really appropriate for what they do in the normal day-to-day running of a taxi. Yeah very much so. Everything Mr Hunt has said is accurate. It's always been a slight mystery to us why plug-in hybrids have been categorised along with the electrics as the way forward. But we don't deal with just this council and they've always been lumped in but they do work shall we say in exactly the manner that Mr Hunt's just described. So it's always been a bit of a mystery to us would taxi drivers stop consciously and charge them so that they can do a further 30-40 miles economically environmentally speaking in the real world now. But it is yes always the council that have had plug-in hybrids in there trying to cast blame on anybody along with the electrics. Thank you very much. Yes we've got Councillor Harvey. Thank you chair. Just picking up on that then I think Mr Clare is sort of agreeing with Councillor Hunt that because of the limited range. Very quickly. Councillor Harvey just wait a moment. Because of the limited range of a eulah would be back to effectively diesel operation really quite quickly during a taxi driving day. So as Mr Clare is agreeing with that is the suggestion that we don't exclude diesel eulahs. Not really just a way of saying we'd like to carry on driving diesels and have business as usual for another two years. Which seems to me to be a wrong retrograde step. Is that to you finished? Well that was a question for Mr Clare really. I have got some other points I would like to make. Well since this as far as I'm concerned this is a learning experience for all of us because it's quite complicated. I have noticed you wanted to speak. Mr Clare would you like I mean would you like to I think it's reasonable to ask you if. You have any thoughts on that? I think it might be beneficial if we bring Andrew in now to response to that. Forgive us everybody and the public. We have works going on on the side of building. So if you would just pause when the drilling is going on. Councillor Harvey would you turn your microphone off please. Thank you. So Mr Andrew Cundell I believe you are able to speak about engines. Yes I hope so. I certainly completely agree with Councillor Hunt about the plug-in hybrids and the disagreed. What we're really suggesting is the council has always wanted a pushed plug-in hybrids. I think he's right it should be hybrids currently period. Be it diesel or petrol currently it just needs to be a hybrid that's below 100 gms or so, most of them are at 99. That would solve the problem for the next couple of years for the drivers. It would increase your green fleet because they would be hybrids and if the vehicles are slightly now suggesting for the slightly older age group is it doesn't change the emissions on the vehicle because they're still all Euro 6 stuff. But what it would do is that when your 900 year rule kicks in in a couple of years time these cars will then be, the drivers will then be forced to change them because of their age. Therefore at that point they're going to go either all electric. I think you should probably drop the plug-in hybrid because I don't really see the point of them at all. But it should go either all electric or hopefully by then there should be some hydrogen cars on the market. There's also quite a few now self-charging hybrids out there that only do a very small amount of miles when they self-charge. But I suspect two or three years up the road they will be doing 30 or 40 miles, 50 miles when they self-charge without having to be plugged in but run on pure electric for that period. So it's better quality charging. There's already two or three out there doing that. Suzuki have got one out already. I think going ahead that will get you greener quicker. Solve the driver at the problem at the moment while he's short of money because he hasn't really worked for the last period of time. It's getting busier. He'll get his money back together. He'll be able to afford the newer cars. Hopefully you'll have better charging points available to everybody. It will be quicker and straightforward. We don't mind from the point of view but we just think it'll be better. Righto. Thank you very much. That's helpful. Thank you very much, Chairman. I think we've got to all remember the reality that we've got now that if we hadn't had the COVID experience for the last two years, it would have been quite expected and reasonable to progress this now. But we aren't in that situation. We've got a situation where the drivers have been on extremely low income over that time and that's absolutely correct. We know that to be the case. And in those circumstances, I think we have to think are we being reasonable and I think we need to be reasonable. And it's not a very long period of time that is being asked for here. Look after all, look out quickly in spite of COVID, the last two years have gone. So, you know, in that sort of timeframe, we will be hopefully in, I should say the drivers will be in a position to actually then move forward. They're not asking for an indefinite stay of play. They are indicating exactly what they're asking us to support. And I very much do support it. And after all, in the main play about the green agenda, we have to consider really that in reality, when you think of all the thousands and thousands of cars that are out there in South Cams, that are just petrol or diesel, mines petrol, and I can't afford to change my car at this moment in time. And, you know, when you consider the, in reality, the small number that we're talking about, again, is it realistic and fair and thoughtful to expect those few people to be spending money that they haven't got in a way that lots of us can't do either at this moment in time. So I think we ought to support that. How do you find somewhere else in the building to go? So Chairman, I think let's be helpful to the trade, because after all, they do provide a very important service in all sorts of aspects. And we don't want the trade to crash and not be able to provide those services that they are doing. So I will be supporting the question that has been posed to us by the business people. You know, it's all right for us. You know, the council, we don't have to make money because our residents kindly give us their money. But these people have to go and earn their money. And I think we make, certainly for the next two years, we ought to be making as much effort as we can as a committee to help them. Thank you Chairman. Thank you, Councillor Roberts, and a very good point, which I have a lot of sympathy with. So, Councillor Wilson, could, oops, some of these things got off. Councillor Wilson. Thank you, Chair. I just wanted to ask our public speaker who's walking away. When a plug-in hybrid diesel car has stopped running on the charge and reverts to diesel, what's the rate of emissions at that point? Now, if you have a plug-in hybrid like the other councillor described, then that does happen. If you have a pure hybrid that doesn't plug in, it runs on diesel and electric all of the time. So what generally happens with them is that when you are below 10, 12 miles an hour, they tend to run on electric at low speed. And then as you speed up, they tend to run on the diesel. So again, it helps a bit from the fact that when you're going out of town, that's what happens. But they're always under whatever it says on the logbook, which is the 99 grams per kilometre, which is what people are doing in as low emissions as opposed to ultra-low emissions. So that's the difference really. But if you have a plug-in hybrid when it starts running just on diesel, that puts the diesel back up again a little bit, because it still has a bit of a nature. So just to clarify, because I'm struggling to keep up here. So if a diesel plug-in hybrid switches over from electric to diesel, is it still under 99 micrograms per kilometre? I'll be honest with you. Yes, I think it says it is. I'm not sure it really is, because it's still... Factory conditions and all that. But you're saying... But I'm saying that... Wouldn't it be different for a petrol? Petrol's not... It can get very complicated. Petrol's put out less cum by oxide than diesel's do. Petrol's put out lots more NOX gases than what diesel is. Swaps it around, but there's lots of stories about that now. Okay, so hybrid is currently probably the better way where it stays on hybrid permanently. Plug-in hybrid is, again, like the general said, really good for commuters, because you use the electric only. But the driver who's doing 100 and 150 miles a day for half an hour or an hour and charged up his battery, he's going to be running on the diesel or petrol whatever he does on the plug-in hybrid. I think they're a little bit pointless. Hybrid is much better, or pure electric, or pure hydrogen. Okay, thank you. And for the benefit of the people online, Councillor Batataria has just joined the committee. Councillor Harvey. Thank you, Chair. And through you. I just wanted to clarify this because Councillor Roberts was sort of, I think, saying that we were obliging our drivers who've been through a difficult time, somehow obliging them to buy a new vehicle. But what we're discussing here is once a driver has decided to buy a new vehicle, what sort of vehicle that should be. Is my understanding of what we're discussing here? I wonder if the Chair would like to concur or confirm that. It's the policy that we make here enables people to carry on or not with the same car that they've got, or to buy something that complies with the rules that will comply with the rules when they're due to renew. That's what I understand, and I have that rule. So then I think you're agreeing with me that this is not a question of obliging drivers to buy a new car when they otherwise wouldn't, because what this is about is if they decide to buy a new car, therefore we assume that they've made the financial arrangements to do that. This is about what kind of car they could buy that would be compliant with that policy. Yes, absolutely, that's what I'm understanding to Councillor Harvey. So thank you very much. I also noticed Councillor McDonald has arrived. Thank you very much. Can I just go back? All of this is really useful and informs us enormously. So thank you very much. I just want to clarify that there is another element in here which is about wheelchair access, wheelchair accessible vehicles, which will come onto. So does anybody else want to make a thought? I'm also minded to come back to Ms Jackson if you want to have some thoughts on that. Councillor Harvey, you put your hand up again. I have a few other points to make. Firstly, in relation to opening up the pool of available vehicles to include diesel euloughs, and I think Mr Clare then said actually he would prefer just hybrids rather than the plug-in hybrid electric vehicles. So I wondered then whether there are indeed any non-plug-in diesel hybrids. That was one question. Also, I think when we started this process a few years ago, one of the objectives was to gradually align with City. I did check with City just earlier today. They are not allowing diesel plug-in hybrids, but the comment was that the wording in their policy needs tightening up, but the intention is not to allow diesel plug-in hybrid electric vehicles. I think apart from that I would agree with Mr Clare that we really ought to go straight to EVs if we could because of the problems around driving patterns affecting what you would actually get from eulaths. The main point is we really want to align with City as far as we should so making this kind of special exception for diesel plug-in hybrid electric vehicles would be diverging again from City as my understanding. Thank you, Councillor Harvey. Councillor Roberts, do you want to come back? Yes, Chairman. I won't take up too much of your time, I hope. I think we'll get Brennan's back. Thank you Chairman. I think we're getting bogged down in technicalities here and I think the gentleman who spoke originally from Panther, I'd like maybe him to come back onto the front again and just reiterate what he's asking for because I think it boils down to what the taxi people were saying is that their drivers would find it impossible almost to comply with the ruling that it was supposed to be coming in very soon immediately and what he was asking for is an extension of time of two years for it to come in 2023. Again, I think that's absolutely not an unreasonable request given the circumstances and I think that's what's been forgotten here at the moment in the run towards the greenery. We're forgetting that this is actually the reality of what financially is going on in the taxi trade. They've lost huge amounts of business from what we read in the paperwork. They're still nowhere near achieving what they were pre-COVID and I think we really do need to remember that this is people's livelihoods here and that they're not being unreasonable. They're not saying that they aren't going to do it. They're telling us when they believe it will be financially viable for them to do so and I think just another couple of years, we are not going to save the planet by forcing these people to go now and do something now which they probably can't afford to do and as for saying that we have to go along with Cambridge City well I'm sorry we don't have to go along with Cambridge City but we have to try to do the best for the businesses in South Cambridgeshire and for the people who rely upon those services and I say again I think it's quite likely that if we start forcing this agenda just to match our own agenda we'll find that we'll lose lots of these drivers because there are other businesses who are desperately looking for drivers and if you were being told by a council that you have to spend money you don't have to update it to match in with their green criteria then you're going to go somewhere else to work you're going to go and be a lorry driver somewhere else that would be very good for the lorry trade so let's just get to the reality of this let's realise what we're all having to change our ways of doing things these people are being very reasonable and I hope that we'd go with it thank you Jen can I just point out that the only reason we in the past tried to align with the city was so that drivers who work for both would be working under the same conditions and it wouldn't be one thing for one authority and one thing for the other however in more recent years we have undertaken to work along our own lines but let's have a look at Councillor Harvey again thank you well I just wanted to reiterate your point we're not forcing we're not attempting to force tax drivers to change to you know in other words we're not trying to force them to change their existing vehicles to new ones we're just saying that when you do it should be one that's moving us steadily towards where we'd all like to be thank you very much and can I just while we're going back to Ms Jackson I just want to remind us that the particular bit that we're looking at here of the items that we deferred from the last committee starts on the bottom of page 12 of our agenda it's the very last bit at the bottom of that page existing policy vehicle restrictions at the bottom of that page and it runs up and over onto page 13 and then other items carry on on page 13 so remember this is simply looking at the moment at the fact that we suggested we suggested from the workshop when we looked at it afterwards that a new petrol the previous principle had said a new petrol or diesel vehicle will only be granted a licence if it is four years old until December 2021 hang on am I on the right bit no I'm not on the right bit we're talking about engines aren't we but that's right yes because it refers to the length of time you've got to pay for it so what the workshop proposed a new petrol vehicle will only be granted if it is under four years old until the 1st of December 2023 now I just want to go back to Ms Jackson can you untangle the complications here such that we understand which bit of this would we be either supporting or trying to amend if we said that diesel vehicles should be allowed to be licensed until December 2023 thank you chairman yes you've been looking at the current policies it stands from 2019 I believe a new petrol or diesel vehicle will only be granted if it is under four years old until December do slow down for the audio apologies so a new petrol or diesel vehicle will only be granted if it is under four years old until December 2021 of course a big discussion length discussion of the workshop as a result of the pandemic if how appropriate to extend the 2021 deadline to 2023 that was a unanimous decision at the workshop obviously with regard to the proposal that and that would go full stop just then change to a new petrol vehicle will only be granted if it is under four years old until the first of December 2023 so we'd be purely removing that allowing a diesel engine to be licensed as of the first of December 2021 to the first of December 2023 so only newly licensed petrol engines would be permissible until 2023 as it stands that of course we'd have the the request from Hanffa today which we could obviously agree to do so as to read if members were so minded of course a new petrol vehicle will only be granted if it is under four years old until the first of December 2023 or in the case of hybrid diesel or petrol vehicles they will be granted until they're under let me speak the sixth or would it be I think it would be I think it would I think it would let me speak the sixth I think it would be a new petrol or diesel vehicle will only be granted if it is under four years old until the first of December 2023 then you're not looking at obviously Mr Clare and his argument as well about having purely diesel hybrid I thought that was a request today was to switch to pure hybrids I don't know about anybody else but Mr Clare my understanding is if we said diesel or petrol under four years old until 2023 having pushed back with 2021 we would actually be sticking with what we had previously which was the request for a two year slippage effectively business as usual for two years right sorry did you thank you so as I understand it and I want to clarify it with Mr Jackson as well that this December 2021 date for vehicles licence for the first time is a diesel applicability and in fact the driver if the driver on the second of December wanted to secure a new licence and that was a petrol vehicle that they would be free to do so until December 2023 thank you yes I just wanted to emphasise that because in other words it's not all or nothing they still have the option for a petrol vehicle up until 2023 thank you for reminding us of that right I'm slightly nervous that if we move on to the other subjects we might forget that nub of useful information but I do think we ought to perhaps go through the other things so you know we've had a ruminations about that but there are other elements in here that we also needed taking to make decisions on and we will come to this one shortly unless members would like to take that particular one now but I do yeah okay right so Jenny could I make a move that given the words that sorry could I just suggest that we just go back to what it says in the agenda so the request was that no new applications of a diesel vehicle will be approved from 1st of December 2021 and that was the outcome of our workshop where we worked all around it and thought about it but we have had new information useful information about how vehicles work so the question we're likely to ask on that one and I will refer you to this element on pages 12 and 13 is whether we think we should be allowing granting of new licenses for vehicles it's kind of the inverse of what we're asking isn't it whether Ms Jackson would you help me how can we phrase this because we don't actually have the recommendation here I mean we've been asked to support the recommendations of the members workshop which was to that came out hang on let's see page 9 the recommendation from your workshop was to permit the licensing of new petrol vehicle engines until up to 4 years old until 1st of December 2023 otherwise a driver would now well as of later on this week not be able to license any vehicle unless it was ULEV or zero emission so I enabled that flexibility as a result of the pandemic the workshop agreed that a new petrol vehicle would be able to be licensed provided it was under 4 years old until the 1st of December 2023 and the effect of that is to not allow a new diesel vehicle but as Councillor McDonald has pointed out people could switch to a petrol vehicle as a new licensed vehicle at that time that would be correct chair yes so members I propose we sorry Councillor Handley my understanding correct me if I'm wrong is that the argument from the member of public is that that we should be tweaking this to allow plug-in hybrid diesels that's the only difference from what was suggested at the workshop now what Councillor Hunt has told us who's a driver of hybrid plug-in vehicles what he's saying is that effectively if we allow that that diesel engine you know they will not plug-in and charge their batteries a battery will only take them 40-50 miles so a vehicle that's doing 150-200 miles a day professionally it's going to be effectively a diesel car not an electric car so I can't see the point of doing it I really can't and I tend to agree and indeed Mr Clare made the point and indeed Mr Cundell made the point but that is not the way the car would be used so we've got questions from Councillor Roberts and Councillor Hunt Councillor Roberts thank you Chairman again I think that the comments that our officer made and explained it should be the motion which was the two parts going up to 2023 and then the additional which was what the workshop agreed and then the addition of the hybrid as well so it's I would say this is now a two-part motion the first which was a recommendation of the group and then this new addition today which is about the hybrids and I think we're getting too tied up with people using petrol or whatever okay so let's do it like that then so if we make the first part of this as worded on the top of page 13 looking at that so that a new petrol this is the outcome of the workshop so the new petrol vehicle will only be granted a licence if it is under four years old until 1 December 2023 would everybody like to indicate whether they support that or not sorry oh sorry okay fair point Councillor Hunt sorry yes I just wanted to follow on from Councillor Handler's comment I think first of all the thing we're about to vote on would not prevent you registering a hybrid of any sort I mean a plug-in hybrid diesel or a plug-in hybrid petrol or an ordinary hybrid I will not use it in terms of self-charging that's marketing nonsense an ordinary hybrid they're all covered by this you could register any of those until 2023 so I don't really see why we would need to I suppose I do see the difference that the industry representation would like to have the diesel option until 2023 I would come back to my point I think if we were to allow that specifying that the plug-in may be an own goal environmentally and it may indeed be the case that an ordinary hybrid is better when driven 150 miles a day than a plug-in one as well as being significantly cheaper so Councillor Hunt if we had proposals as follows does I'm saying this not because I want to ask your agreement that I understood it correctly so if our question A was whether we supported a new petrol vehicle will only be granted a licence if it's under four years old until the 1st of December 2023 and we vote on that and then secondly part B we look at whether we would be happy for new diesel plug-in hybrids to be granted a licence if they're under four years old until the 1st of December 2023 I wonder whether the industry representative would rather remove the plug-in from that and just say hybrids because that would actually enable both because they're technically both covered by that and then a judgement could be made based on the actual operating conditions that an individual driver typically, somebody who's mostly in the nearby villages perhaps would benefit from a plug-in whereas somebody who goes further would break a leave with him but the crucial point was diesel so is the wording then that we're struggling for a new hybrid will only be granted if it is under four years old until the 1st of December 2023 I think if you were to say that that would cover it here so let me just get the wording so a new hybrid vehicle brackets which could be either electric or petrol you'd have to put that in brackets out because we don't need to say it sorry I don't need to be rude it could cover both a new hybrid vehicle will only be granted if it is under four years old until 1st of December 2023 which sounds a bit bonkers because I've got thumbs up at the other end but of course probably the only ones there are are under four years old let me just get the wording Aaron have you got that wording council Harvey thank you chair through you I wonder if councillor Hunt would clarify whether if we were to replace or if we were to allow hybrid vehicles would that then and now plug-in hybrid vehicles which I thought we'd agree generally be a bad idea it's very hard to know we want to say pure hybrid do you want to say pure? there's no very good term for this because the industry uses different terms from different manufacturers but let's say a non-plug-in hybrid one that you do not charge it from the mains has a small battery and is only recovering kinetic energy to reuse or like a Toyota price the original types of hybrids which are very popular with the trade so to councillor Harvey's question it's really hard to know what to put here because I do not have a good understanding of the usage patterns of cabins I would assume they're driving quite long shifts and probably driving 100 more miles a day I don't have because they don't publish it information about what the efficiency is to do because I'll once they run out of battery you kind of only get this one number so it's very hard to judge whether you're better off with a plug-in or not what I would say is I would favour petrol plug-ins and petrol ordinary hybrids over diesel anything because of the particulars and so forth who I do take the gentleman's point about selective catalysts we'll do we are getting into tech I'm sorry but we're being asked to make a technical decision can we understand what part B of this might be that it might be all new now we could go very specific we could say all new non-plug-in brackets petrol or diesel hybrid vehicles under four years old until 1st of December 2023 or we could just say all new non-plug-in hybrid vehicles under four years etc or we could say all new hybrid vehicles under four years chairman I'm told you lost now I have no idea where we are no I don't either sorry I do know where we are I want to speak to the petrol tax and to speak thank you chairman I just wanted to remind yourself and your committees while there was one of a caveat regarding allowing the licensing of diesel vehicles and this was we are in a serious issue with regard to a lack of wheelchair accessible vehicles in our district so that we're actually having to refer people who are unable to use community transport for example to Cambridge to get a wheelchair accessible taxi obviously the maker of our district we haven't got taxi ranks we haven't really got the night time economy to support you know the London style wheelchair accessible vehicles we've actually got six Hackney carriages which are all saloon vehicles so we're expecting with a change that will lose those six and they'll become private hire so we'll end up with probably handful currently of wheelchair accessible vehicles they may be specialist vehicles that are used for home to school and transports with a tail lift at the back companies such as Poundford provide a very vital home to school service for the county council and for vulnerable children and I know this was a separate add-on unfortunately to the workshop that came from Poundford but I know Councillor Wilson and Councillor Bradman were supportive of the notion that we need to support as far as possible the availability of wheelchair accessible vehicles so an agreement in principle by the chair and the vice chair was to continue to allow diesel hybrid or not diesel engine vehicles wheelchair accessible vehicles to be continued to be licensed to 2023 so that was another part so you've got the three parts chair so you have got an agreement that you've already made at the workshop which was a new petrol vehicle will only be granted if it is under four years old until the 1st of December 2023 you're up for discussion sorry before you go on from there that's the element on page 12 and 13 that's correct the wheelchair accessible bit is on page 10 and that is where we had agreed that vehicles related the vehicles related amendments so this is the bit at the bottom of the page proposal Hackney carriage vehicle 3.6C and 3.16 no sorry chair that's regarding to Hackney carriages only this part here we're talking about is where Poundford are using a private hire vehicle which is say a Lailand transport transportic under vehicle a Ford Trans Adaptive to carry wheelchair passengers so this is private hire fleet not the Hackney carriage so that's separate sorry I'm just trying to find did we look at this in the workshop or has it come up since no this was subsequent to the workshop this was the first additional request from Poundford that came to yourself and to Councillor Wilson he was supportive of the idea that we need to maintain as much as possible wheelchair accessible vehicles okay so the point being that if we want to maintain even what we have which is very few wheelchair accessible vehicles we have to continue to allow those to be first licensed if it's under four years old until the first of December 2023 because that's the only way we're going to keep a reasonable supply of wheelchair accessible vehicles available so I can see Councillor Handley Councillor Harvey I just I can just park the wheelchair accessible vehicle for a moment Mr Clair I was hoping I might clarify whether in fact any non plug-in hybrid vehicles that are also diesel are available because otherwise effectively if we say hybrid to include plug-in hybrid that means effectively and we include diesels we then know that they will actually be plug-in diesels which I think we've kind of decided would be not beneficial from either the air quality point of view or the CO2 emissions point of view so are there actually any vehicles that are available which are either depending on the terminology or standard hybrid diesels as opposed to plug-in hybrid vehicles that are diesels Would Mr Cundell be able to respond to that? Yes I could and yes there are vehicles that are just hybrid not necessarily plug-in hybrid that are diesel as well as hybrid and just maybe something to make it easier for you when these plug-ins run out of electric they are still hybrids they don't stop being hybrids at that point they are still hybrids so it makes the plug-in is the expensive problem to be fair it needs to be just hybrid it doesn't matter whether it's plug-in or not the drivers aren't going to buy plug-in ones because they can't afford them their brand new motors that they're going to throw so from that point of view it makes no difference so yes they are available and if I may get the chance when you're talking about the wheelchair thing shortly I would like to join in with that because it's a wider problem than you probably realise it is Oh I thought you were going to expand on that I'm very happy to expand on it now if you wish me to but we currently are the only firm that I'm aware of that are supplying or even attempting to supply wheelchairs in the city or in South Cams to anybody other than for the social services ones we already don't have enough of them we have a great shortage we are currently quoting a minimum of an hour to do one if someone wants a specialist wheelchair accessible vehicle ie a solid frame or a rear loading vehicle they are waiting an hour and a half to two hours for one and if you like and I've had the conversation with the city as well if you need to allow us to carry on running deals at the moment because they don't make access and if we've got other than the London taxi which is a whole different technology and they're £60,000 a throw which I was only going to buy those because it's just ridiculous if you don't allow us to carry on using deals and furthermore in my opinion you need to drop the four year rule very urgently as well because we are very soon going to be in the same boat as the other companies that you licence and say sorry we do not have any wheelchair vehicles available and nobody will be getting them because we are not going to be able to run them we can't get the drivers to do the work because they're not allowed to get any extra money for doing the jobs even though they take a lot longer and the driver has a lot more responsibility for wheeling people in and out of the vehicle the driver can't get paid for that and now we've got to the point where we're becoming busier again there's a driver shortage the drivers are just driving past these jobs and we can't make them do them and these people are just getting stuck for hours out in the cold sometimes we're big in drivers to go and do the work okay that's really helpful so what you're saying is that currently the only wheelchair accessible vehicles we have are diesel no I'm saying there are a few petrol but it's 99% diesel mostly diesel okay so if we enforce this proposed A that a new petrol vehicle will only be regarded if it's under 4 years old until 1 December 23 thereby excluding diesels we will get rid of all our wabs won't we wheelchair accessible vehicles obviously they won't go immediately because they carry on as they wear out or if they get damaged so they cannot be used the driver will not be able to replace that vehicle correct could he replace it with a petrol wheelchair accessible if he gets very lucky they are very few and far between because most of them are built specifically for the cab trade they are always diesel because that's been the thing to buy for every day you do get a few mobility ones at petrol but again it's very few and far between thank you very much okay right Mr Chairman Chancellor Handley had his hand up and Councillor Hill yeah I really concerned about this I think the wheelchair accessible vehicle thing is one that I would have a lot of sympathy with allowing to change changing what we do with those for the reasons that this gentleman has laid out what I'm less happy what I'm less happy about is allowing diesel engine hybrids to be re-licensed because the reason we decided not to treat them in the same way as we treated the petrol version was because of the particulates which causes problems in the city and that problem hasn't gone away that's still the same problem and I don't think we should be legislating for that to allow them in my opinion whether they plug in or not you know if they've got an engine they're causing problems and so I think we should just stick to the plan that we had coming out of the workshop and I would just leave you with the thought that you know if the city council is going to ban diesel engines of all kinds if someone buy you know an operator buys one who's based in South Cams you won't be able to take it into the city anyway so he or she is not going to want to do it so I think we should stop getting hung up on this we've spent too much time on it already in my opinion and we just need to make a decision now so you'd be happy simply to vote I don't mean simply I think we should run with on the outcomes of the workshop as we had them written yes, I think so Thank you Councillor Hull Thank you Chairman, Chairman, I'd like to make a proposal that we allow diesel wheelchair accessible vehicles to continue to be licensed until December 2023 that's my proposal Hang on a minute that's not quite how we need to put it because the way the policy is written at the moment is written in terms of by by default and by elimination I'm saying Chairman, the note which is on page 13 That's a new petrol No, I'm saying we allow diesel wheelchair accessible vehicles to continue to be licensed until or if you wish to say in December 2023 all wheelchair accessible vehicles should be How you read So Councillor Hull, how about if we go with A a new petrol vehicle will only be granted if it is under four years old until 1 December 2023 B or rather and as part of this but we allow diesel wheelchair accessible vehicles to continue to be licensed until December 2023 I'm happy with that Chairman Okay Right Are members minded to take a vote on that? Are members minded to vote on that? But Chairman where is the part that we which was going to be B which was about the hybrids I think I don't think because we need that I don't know whether we need that if well the other option was a new hybrid vehicle can be licensed if it's under four years until the first of December 2023 that would have been an addition to what we said at the workshop but the workshop following the workshop we add in this allow diesel wheelchair accessible vehicles to continue because there are so few of those vehicles as Councillor Roberts pointed out although they are going into the city there are very few of them so are we happy with well I'm switching and I think we're muddying the waters here I think we've got one question to answer first which is about the petrol going on till 2023 with the addition of the wheelchair part which Councillor Howell has put forward then we should have a secondary vote which is about the hybrids clearly the first part is about following up from the submission of the working party of the group but this is the second part which has been brought to the table today so clarity Councillor Roberts are you saying that that second part if we accept that the first part includes the element about the diesel wheelchair and the second part then reiterates the wording but changes it slightly of the first part and says you hybrid vehicle under four years old can be licensed up until 1 December 2023 repairs okay Aaron do you have the wording so if I just run through that so the first part will be a new petrol vehicle will only be granted a licence if it is under four years old until 1 December 2023 we allow diesel or some appropriate wording to be agreed with Retro Jackson we allow diesel wheelchair accessible vehicles to continue to be licensed until December 2023 yes and then the third part is a new hybrid vehicle will only be granted a licence if it is under four years old until 1 December 2023 Councillor Macdonald just in I mean Councillor Roberts proposed it just needs a second there I think I won't be seconding but I think it needs a seconder okay so if we say that Councillor Roberts proposed the well actually I thought I proposed it in fact some time ago but with the addition that Councillor House has put in that's fine Councillor Roberts if you want to propose it so the new petrol vehicle will only be granted a licence if it is under four years old until 1 December 2023 how should we put this Rachel and allow but we allow diesel wheelchair accessible vehicles to continue to be licensed I think just for clarity and for me we lay this information to the trade I'd be quite happy we had it as free separate parts so to mirror it really so I should say a new petrol vehicle will only be granted maybe so that Erin can make sure isn't it of course yes so this is so a new petrol vehicle will only be granted if it is under four years old until 1 December 2023 was there okay point two or A or whatever we'll look at the policy a new diesel wheelchair accessible vehicle will only be granted if it is under four years old until the first of December 2023 yep and C a new hybrid vehicle will only be granted if it is under four years old until the first of December 2023 great okay lovely Members would you prefer can you just indicate whether you would prefer to take those one at a time or whether you'd be happy to take them all at once one at a time one at a time okay so Rachel would you like to read out number A and we'll vote on it Members by show of hands please thank you chair and I just note that Councillor Claire Dildarfield will not be able to vote because she's not here in the room okay so part A thank you chair a new petrol vehicle will only be granted if it is under four years old until the first of December 2023 so to take the number so it's one two three four it's unanimous okay lovely thank you so that's by unanimous Rachel if you could read the second part thank you a new diesel wheelchair accessible vehicle will only be granted if it is under four years old until the first of December 2023 that's unanimous thank you I'm a final a new hybrid vehicle will only be granted if it is under four years old until the first of December 2023 so it's unanimous apart from what apart from Councillor Handley did you have your hand up so those are all carried unanimously did you abstain so whatever that is minus one one abstention do you know what when I saw these papers I knew it was going to be a bit like that so thank you very much for bearing with us on that complicated thing now can we go back to page nine and go through the elements that we agreed at the workshop that are really being brought to you for ratification so so this first element do you want to carry this through Rachel or shall I I'm quite happy chair if you wish to go through cos I'm conscious of the fact that members spent an awful lot of time at the workshop which is really valuable but I feel as you say chair it's just to ratify the decision so hopefully you'll be able to do that section by section thank you so this first element is to do with existing policy on safeguarding and it was agreed at the workshop previously it said that they must operators, drivers and vehicle proprietors must undertake safeguarding course within 12 months of the policy and then annual and we've now proposed at the workshop that all existing drivers, vehicle proprietors and operators undertake a safeguarding course within 12 months all new applicants prior to licensing and a refresher course will be required thank you very much do we all agree that, agreed the only element we need to check on that Ms Jackson is that we obviously need to procure a training course for that or arrange to do it in house so this we have, during the pandemic we arranged to provide external providers of the course such as binados and the blue lamp so these are all very varied organisers who provide safeguarding training for us they are appropriate courses for drivers in this scenario absolutely very very specific and obviously there's always scope to look at bringing it back in house in the future should that be an option for say right now we're using appropriate professional providers great thank you so that first one on safeguarding is agreed so the next one is on policy on driving experience this is a number of years and we agreed are we all agreed that we want our drivers to have 12 months experience and that they should be no less than 20 years of age this would have the effect the third one on page 10 is reference 2.6 this is to remove requirement for references and indeed the trade agreed this and said it was not very useful so we agreed that ok so that's agreed the proposal at section 2.23 of the policy the surrender of licences this seemed absolutely important to me so are we agreed on that agreed lovely the element proposal which was for Hattney carriage vehicles yes that's right we had had a requirement in our policy that all taxis would be wheelchair accessible since 2019 but it's not been effectively implemented we also had said that existing Hattney carriages would be white and wav by December 20 20 is that right and we agreed to align the vehicle related amendments all to December so are you all happy with that lovely next one slightly more tricky 3.12 the certificate of compliance this is to do with the vehicles way back in the midst of time vehicles had a certificate of compliance once every 12 months and then for some reason it was changed to 6 monthly but because we have now implemented the maximum age limit for vehicles it seemed more sensible to bring that back to 12 months again so that all of these tests could be done at the same time in the same location when cars were getting their emojis so we at the workshop we said could that come back so that we could think about it being returned to being 12 monthly do you want to give us a narrative on that I just feel it's a very sensible option in 2019 it was moved to be a 6 monthly MOT certificate of compliance and I think a lot of the workshop attendees were very supportive of the notion that a 12 month MOT is sufficient for the trade but of course with a small caveat there if we have any concerns about reported roadworthiness of the vehicle I've run an enforcement officer's check then of course it would be required to do a full new MOT or if there's any advisories that are causing us concern when MOT is provided that would insist on it but to say we didn't really need a sledgehammer approach and those concerns would be what reported by members of the public potentially members of the public obviously councillors themselves or enforcement officers when we're doing our visits as well so any concern whatsoever would insist on the MOT probably give them penalty points and the vehicle would be suspended in any case until the MOT is provided so lots of safety mechanisms in place so members are we all agreed with that good excellent so back to 12 months again obviously on page 11 3.16 making our terms respectful is important so we've changed the terms to wheelchair users thank you 9 exempt vehicles this was to delete the words and plate so that an alternative identification could be sourced in line with the review of plate production materials at that time we refused the removal but we agreed to amend to read and plate or identification and that was to ensure that any alternative system does not compromise customer safety or visibility of identification of the vehicle so are we happy to go with that I know we thrashed it out quite quite thoroughly at the workshop moving on to 3.27 age limits this was to stipulate a 9 year age limit for all vehicles from December 2021 but to consider moving that to December 2023 and that was agreed in order to support the trade and that was a reasonable step so are we all agreed members okay yes I'm slightly concerned about this 3.27 deleting the reference made to aligning the city of Cambridge policy I hear what councillor Robert says but I actually feel there are very good reasons for at least endeavouring to align with the city of Cambridge policy so I'm not so sure about that one what do members feel councillor Handling I think we should aspire to be the same but I don't think it needs to be put in the document I don't think we need to make reference to it in this fair enough okay so yes we do try to keep aligned but we don't put it in the policy fair enough and members wish to see continued partnership working but fair enough okay so we've agreed that has everybody agreed on that that we work it as an aspirational thing the reference to the particular angle of doors was no longer to because these were actually largely sliding doors I think in the end so we agreed to remove that appendix D1 which was this was to do with Richard can you remind us this is to do with SUV type vehicles that's right SUVs and MPVs which have say an additional row of seats in the back which may be suitable for a small child or someone who's very very short but basically the comfort so the lack of access to a door is a concern so there's an accident in the vehicle they would have to clamber over the middle passengers it was felt this is kind of agreed and not agreed within our neighbouring authorities but I think it's a very sensible and safe approach with only thank goodness only had one report of any incident over the last six seven years I believe it wasn't a serious accident but it brings to life the principle of making sure our passengers are safe as possible yes I think so I'm just slightly concerned that in the current policy there doesn't seem to be a 3.27 it seems to go as far as oh hang on no on the wrong bit it seems it can give me the page number 51 thank you there we are yes yes 51 in the policy yes it's all yes this is this is to do with maximum number of seats though however I think we agreed that at the workshop so are members happy to accept that great ok moving on page 12 regarding the code of conduct we simply did a bit of tidying up of the wording so we removed duplications and that was agreed at the workshop so are members happy with that thank you under the appendix C the private hire exemptions we removed and it refers back to the item we've already agreed we removed the word plate and replaced with notice and replaced notice with certificate and we made some amendments to make the exempt drivers requirements in line with the rest of the policy so are members happy with that in the driver handbook we looked at the competency test to provide an external provider and also to think about in the workshop we agreed we needed to add in online assessments where they were available we agreed and also the administrative corrections in the paperwork that's at 34 and under the DBS we were reassured that there was no compromise to the existing standard of checks and this was an administrative amendment only this was to do with how people record their stay in touch with a DBS check ok so looking at vehicle license sorry vehicle restrictions this is a bit that we've just covered already on page 13 right here we come to the license will not be renewed for a petrol or diesel vehicle unless it's less than 9 years old and at least Euro 5 emissions standard until December 2023 and we agreed that at the workshop good ok so we agreed here then any newly licensed vehicle must be U level 0 emission from December 2021 and we discussed at length the elements of that and we agreed it was appropriate to move the implementation date to the first of December 2023 which aligns with the other agreements we've made so members thank you very much I think that comes to the end of the policy is there anything you'd like to add Jackson No chair, thank you so much everybody for the patience as well in helping me to get our policy a bit more fit for purpose in light of the pandemic thank you Councillor Harvey I just wanted to note that just the paragraph that we just looked at any new licensed vehicle must be U level 0 emission now from 2023 there will be a sort of discontinuity of our specification given what we've just agreed in relation to what would apply up until 2023 which I thought was a sensible compromise but I think the reason it was a sensible compromise was because as Mr Clare said allowing hybrid as opposed to U level is an improvement in terms of the amount of emissions we will create because of Councillor Hunts point that actually we said U level that would have to be a plug-in hybrid and as we've agreed plug-in hybrids with a taxi use pattern would not achieve the sort of advertised number on the tin if you like So Councillor Harvey what we need from you is some alteration of the words that would make this more manageable for you or more coherent with the rest of the policy that we've just agreed is there any way that well I've just I'm not suggesting we sort of address this today but I'm just pointing out that there will now be a sort of and perhaps it's something we need to revisit so what you said you used the word there will be a discontinuity between previously agreed elements of the policy and this so can we minute that we want to look at this again at some point so that we before December 2023 obviously so that we can look at how we can minimise that discontinuity Yes and I think we don't know how the technology would work between now and the next couple of years but I just think it would be worth reviewing that within the next year or two obviously before 2023 so can we minute that that we would like to look at it within the next year or two I would agree Cus y butch tarion Yeah I have a question on the page number 12 on the DBS Would you bring the microphone a bit closer, thank you I have a question on the page number 12 we are getting the DBS check The DBS check Yeah What is the renewal period of the time for for the DBS checking annually or three years or five years Ms Jackson So what is the time frame on which DBS checks are rechecked there is a requirement under the Department for Transport regulations that were published last July or July 2020 rather that DBS check status is every six months so that is something in the process of currently so when a driver applies for his license a free year license but then they must subscribe to the DBS update service so when we check on that system we can then see whether there has been any change to their DBS status So when you say that DBS renewal so do you mean the six months every six months they are getting the new DBS certificate notice every three years when somebody applies for license they then provide as a DBS check but they have to apply every year they have to subscribe to the DBS so they have to keep their ongoing subscription alive if we find out when we are doing a routine check that that DBS subscription has been cancelled then that license will be suspended so that is another safeguard for us So any misdemeaners that would show up on the DBS check is refreshed every six months so any complaint or concern would come up when we did an investigation as to somebody's complaint so thank you very much members I appreciate we've been going for an hour and a half does anybody want to break before we go on into the the street trading element right okay so this deals with our street trading policy and well yes exactly thank you very much gentlemen for attending it's extremely useful to have your input thank you so members a few minutes while we wait for council Henry to come back but I was going to stop when somebody now leaves I'll be now going to stop the committee if somebody leaves in the future okay so item 5 then street trading policy miss Jackson would you like to present your report thank you chair and thank you committee members are asked to approve in principle the draft policy for consultation unfortunately it was not possible for me to obtain council opinion regarding the introduction of the host premises consent sorry I'm expecting to receive this information later on this week or early next week however what I'm requesting today is that members consider the draft and approve enable for me to start the consultation process I did discuss with Paul this morning about the idea of should we wait until we receive the council opinion but Paul's advice was very sensible as always was the response from council regarding the notion of host premises which is in our policy should just be a matter that we consider with the rest of the consultation responses and just to obviously placate or perhaps address any concerns members may have as you will note we enlisted the legal advice of pops now and one of the country's leading licensing law firms who obviously read through the policy made a few comments but have confirmed it is fit for purpose as far as they are concerned so if there are no questions chair sorry so can we just start from the beginning which was that we currently have a policy that means that there are a few identified streets in South Cambridgeshire which are called consent streets and counterintuitively that means people have to ask for consent before they are permitted to trade and that consent is consulted on by the district council but also the parish council this proposal seeks to make all of the roads in the district under that criteria so that anybody wishing to trade anywhere has to seek consent but with certain caveats certain locations might be as it were given a host licence would you like to give us the background to how the structure of the new proposal of course yeah the idea is of course to make it across the board fair so wherever you wish to trade within the district you are subject to the same regime street trading consent regime what we are trying to allow is flexibility which is about host premises which is a new concept that we borrowed thanks to our colleagues at East of Cambridgeshire they actually agreed earlier on this month the notion of host premises within their policy however obviously I am just waiting to hear the confirmation from our further legal advice regarding the legality of this but to say the idea will be if the caterers association came up with the proposal we have food trucks, food parks etc these mobile units that you might see in the white line one night for two hours then the roads and crown two days later is to allow the flexibility almost like a passport so the idea would be a pub or a B&Q car park for example would apply to have their private premises or car park designated as a host premise and then this would allow people to get the licence from us a consent licence from us and then they can go and trade freely in each specific host premises area so it's like a passport really a bit of flexibility so the principle of licensing is that the host is entitled to seek permission for their land to be used and the second part that works alongside it is the individual trader permission to be using that land and that permission is from both the host but also from the parish councils as usual of course, the whole consultation exercise would still very much remain but it's to allow some flexibility so there would be a couple of new ideas the host premises is new, it is novel so that would be the one approach then of course the consent so you're on the high street for example that would be subject to standard street trader consent but as I say the whole idea is to bring it in line so it's fair transparent, of course equitable and obviously we're not cost prohibitive because the last thing we want to do is these traders which have been trading for maybe several years without the need for a licence all of a sudden don't be told by heavy handed licensing officers that this is going to cost you several hundred pounds we want to support the local economy and continue promoting and supporting the businesses which have been providing a lifeline for our local communities but as I say it's being fair and transparent thank you and Mr Jackson could you also just clarify are you saying that the legal advice is that we can make a decision on this today absolutely we are yes but Paul wishes to address I don't know Paul you wish to the question for today is whether or not you can go out to consultation there's no reason to delay the consultation to get council's advice in fact central government guidance is we should consult for as long as we possibly can so why delay the kickoff good okay that's lovely so we can think about that sensibly council howl have you had a question earlier thank you chairman, chairman I think if you look at recommendation 3 where we've already put it in the Cambridge news and no representations were received give us a good indication there that this isn't going to be that contentious he says hopefully however I have about 15-20 years ago had some streets in Packworth I had the opportunity of getting them made to consent streets because we had a problem there and that was done it worked exceptionally well and it's been like that today so I'm chairman proposed that we do go out to consultation taken on board will council says as part of that consultation along with other people at the panel and indeed yes thank you and indeed years ago I was part of a consultation a hearing where there was a consent street and it made the whole process much easier the formal ways of consulting the various different stakeholders made it much easier council Roberts just to say chairman that at page 154 at options at paragraph 13 which is what councillor Howell has proposed I would second it recommend that the policy is circulated for public consultation thank you chairman yes and indeed that's exactly what I was going to propose myself so that's fine so members any other let's open it for debate if it's been proposed I'm quite happy that councillor Roberts proposes it and is this okay I'm quite happy to second that so any matters for discussion members no so let's go with the recommendation at item 3 and 4 on page 153 that the licensing committee adopts schedule for of a local government for the whole of South Cambridge a district and designate all roads and streets within the district as consent streets with the exception of the A11 and the A14 to take effect from the 1st of March 2022 and that then goes on to explain it was advertised and no representations were received and that the licensing committee agreed that the draft street trading policy be circulated for public consultation with this committee approving the final policy after the consultation exercise so councillor McDonald yes chair I think you answered my question so we're going out to consultation this is scheduled for 1st of March next year so it will come back to us yes it will okay thank you very much so does everybody agree with that do you want to share by affirmation good okay so that's agreed thank you very much indeed okay with that I think we've got no further items to consider so thank you very much at 1547 just before 4 o'clock we'll close the meeting thank you very much