 I'm Scott Rouse, I'm a Body Language Expert and Analyst, and I train law enforcement in the military and interrogation in body language. And I created the Body Language Membership, the only online Body Language Membership for Body Language with Greg Hartley. Mark? I'm Mark Boden. I'm an expert in human behavior and body language. I help people all over the world to stand out, win trust, gain credibility every time they communicate, including some of the leaders of the G7, Chase. Hey, I'm Chase Hughes. I help people and companies radically transform their abilities to read and influence human behavior. I also wrote the number one bestselling book on the subject. Greg? I'm Greg Hartley. I'm a former Army interrogator, interrogation instructor, resistance to interrogation instructor. I've written 10 books on body language and behavior, put together a number one body language course online, BodyLanguageTactics.com with Scott, and I spend most of my time on Wall Street or Corporate America. All right. Today we're going to talk about Elizabeth Holmes. A lot of people are asking for that, so the panelists are, so we're going to go in. This may be a little bit boring as we go along, but this is showing you what it looks like when somebody's just ball-faced, cut and loose a lie. From that point of view, it's really fascinating. Greg, you found these videos. Why don't you tell us a little something about them? Yeah. So a couple of, one is from Fortune and one's from Wall Street Journal. This is, I believe, the Fortune is before things got really hot and the Wall Street Journal after Wall Street Journal had exposed some of the business practices of this Theranos project. If you don't know the Theranos project, there's also a show called Out for Blood. I think it's on Netflix that tells the whole story. And this is Elizabeth Holmes. She's a really young CEO who established this company. When things started to fall apart, then she was in front of everyone. And it's a really good opportunity to see how a CEO functions in terms of telling you what they want you to hear versus everything else. And if you watch her, we'll bring up those points and we'll bring up a couple of points that she does right or wrong. But people believed her. A lot of people believed that there was this one pinprick of blood they could take out of your finger, put into a little mini capsule and test you for hundreds and hundreds of disorders and diseases. That's all falling apart. She's on trial right now. And it doesn't look good for her. Last thing I heard about the trial was they're afraid they will run out of jurors because they've lost a few jurors as part of the process. And that's ongoing right now. All right. We have made it possible to do comprehensive lab tests from a prick from the finger and to eliminate the tubes and tubes of blood. In retrospect, when you look at where you are today, one test with the prick of blood, wasn't that going too far? So we have developed hundreds of tests over the course of the last 12 years that can run a tiny sample using proprietary Theranos technology. And part of when I talk about communicating, what we need to do is we need to get that data out there. And I've talked publicly over the course of the last couple of weeks that we've made a decision now to take the data that we've generated for our FDA submissions and put it into the public domain. And we will. But since you're focused on the one test, let's talk about why we're doing that. I have... And by the way, it's not just me that was focused on the one test. That was sort of the story. The Theranos story was all about this one pin prick that would let you do comprehensive blood testing. That was the story. Yeah. Well, I think this is what we sort of need to dissect a little bit. So when you look at Theranos, Theranos makes devices. We make chemistries. We make consumables. We make software. And we have a little tube called a nanotainer, which... All right, Greg, you want to go first? Sure. I'll leave the weekend. You put lotion on your skin to you. I'll just leave that one for a minute. So what I'll start here, she's got something in common with Chris... What was Chris's name? Chris Watts, right? Watts. Yeah. She's got something in common with Chris Watts. He had the sway rate. I'm going to coin a new phrase. She's got the head bob rate. If you watch her, this is going to be a great indicator as you see stress in her. Her fight or flight causes her to move her head more shorter strokes, moving her head more rapidly. So you'll see that coming up as we go through this. She does way too much eye contact. Everybody makes comments about that, like she's staring you down and very low blink rate. Her blink rate increases when she gets in a bind a bit, but she does what Scott and I have referred to as romance or where she's staring you right in the eyes to make sure how you're receiving everything when she's telling you something. And I don't have to say this. Everybody who watches this show knows what chaff and redirector. She is a master chaff and redirector. There are three kinds of CEOs really. When you get CEOs in front of in front of an audience, there's the silent guy who's only going to answer exactly what it is that you ask because they're not going to divulge any information. That's not her. There is the CEO who does chaff and redirect where they just blurt out a lot of stuff until you pick up on something and run. That's her. And then there's the third one. And I think Dr. Phil called it CEOitis when I was talking to him he said they'll sit there and if you ask him a question three times by the third time they'll have figured out what the answer is and they'll answer it for you. And that was his biggest coaching thing with them. And you do see it. But while you're bobbing her head, her chin drops down and she breaks eye contact when he starts to attack her for the one test. Then she starts to chaff and redirect and when she realizes he's not going to say anything, she just keeps chaffing, chaffing, chaffing, chaffing. She goes to a fairly normal blink rate and her hands illustrate when she has content that she's certain of and she's going to deliver. You'll notice that that head bobbing slows when she does that speeds up when she's nervous. So that's where we go. I also will notice Scott, Chase, you're going to talk about pronouns. She's when she says I, she means something she's done standing in front of an audience. When she says we, she means the collective and everything they've done. And she's pretty consistent with those pronouns throughout here. So, Chase, what do you got? Yeah, I agree with you, especially on the, the head movement there, which we're going to talk about in a future video. I think it becomes something it's almost ad nauseam at that point. And the only smiles that we see are when she's speaking in a way that makes her look good. And I think this because she wants to be seen as some kind of visionary. And not just from this one clip, but from all of her interactions, there's some very solid characteristics. If I were looking at someone like this, I would say that there is some severe narcissistic behavior. And of course, this is not a diagnosis, but that this deliberately fake deep voice is really strange. I think narcissists are rooted. Narcissism is rooted in insecurity. So it's feeling like my normal self is not good enough. I need to become something better and I need to gain, I need to gain my title of being the best that can only come from other people that cannot come from within a narcissist. It has to be confirmed from outside of them. It's interesting that everything is fake. Everything is artificial. And there's two factors that come in here from the DSM. We're going to be talking a lot about the psychology of narcissism here tonight, but there's grandiosity and superficial charm or what they call glibness in some of these diagnostic criteria. Then there's even paranoia in here, which would suggest something different, which I guarantee you Scott's going to talk about in a bit. And she's even admitted to it. She's logged into her employees private data, looking at their accounts, cameras all over the place. There's bulletproof glass in her office. There's body guards, all kinds of crazy stuff. And I'm just going to stop there. Scott, what do you got? This is one of my favorites so far because it's in two of my wheel houses, psychopathy and startups. A lot of psychopaths end up being CEOs. We've come to find out, not that all of them are. If you've got lawyers, hold on over there. I'm not saying you are. I'm not pointing anybody out, but it just so happens there are a lot of them in there. Right out of the gate, she's overselling with that body language, man. She's nervous because she knows this guy, his delivery is so just slow and just ding, ding. She knows she's going to be in a little bit of trouble. So she starts this thing where she's trying to make everything okay. But you guys nailed this so far. She's got that head to bobbing, the body moving around, trying to, and that sort of gets your attention off of what she's saying as she's trying to get you to agree with her. And what she does is this classic setup she does when she sits down, she crosses her leg. She puts her arm up as a barrier. And sometimes you'll see her squeeze her ankle or the bottom part of her leg as an adapter, which we'll see here in a little while. And again, she uses we a lot when she's talking about all the things that the company has done. But then she gets down to a lot of eyes here and a little, I just winked. I can't believe I'm a winker. Anyway, she gets down to a lot of eyes in a few minutes just talking about her and these wonderful things she's done, totally narcissistic in a small way compared to what the way it's going to get in a few minutes. The interviewer, he talks really loud and she's trying to talk loud too, but she's still trying to keep that fake low voice. So she's trying to talk low and she's trying to talk loud. And when you talk loud, more air comes out and your voice is going to go higher. So it sounds odd because you're still trying to keep it low. You'll, you'll realize what that as we go through this and you make comparisons about what she sounds like now when her voice is about in the middle. And then we're going to hear what she's talking really low. So it's, this is, this is a freak show as we go along. She doesn't answer the questions. Yes or no. She never says yes or no. Never wants that she do that in here. And you're right, Greg, just, just the master of Chaffnery Direct. What else? She's got this thing that I'm going to call the protective slouch. The more trouble she gets in, the more she sees she's in trouble, the smaller she gets. When someone's getting ready to rob some place, they're getting ready to steal something or they're sneaking around. They'll make themselves smaller. A lot of times we'll call it turtling because her head will go down and their shoulders will come up. In this case, she's just starting to, her posture just gets horrendous. And this is just like she turns almost into the hunchback woman. And we'll see it even more as we go along. She starts out tall and she starts getting smaller and smaller. She goes along and keeps feeding. What she knows is not true. I'm going to leave it right there. Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So she's, she's raised a chair up. So she has height dominance over this person. And, and so part of part of her slouch is to try and redress some of that height dominance. I think at times we will see her later kind of straighten up often when her interviewer straightens up as well as some kind of battle commences have to say, you know, we're going to have to be careful here around or certainly I want to be careful here around what part of these behaviors are culture and what might be psychopathy. Because look, yes, you're right. About 13% of CEOs will test a psychopathic on the hair test. 15% of inmates, male inmates in a, in a prison will test the same. So given that it is quite a high proportion of psychopathy in business, it's still not massive though, is it? It's still not huge, but it's close to prison population. Strange enough. However, some of the, the, the organization of business can be from many people's point of view fairly antisocial and therefore, and cause antisocial behavior. And therefore sometimes it's not the personality of the person involved. It's the structure around them that causes the impression of psychopathy. Now, in her particular case, she's, look, it's not, it's not fashionable to be wearing a polo neck at this point. That was fashionable back in the kind of, as I remember it kind of the early nineties, I think. And, and you know, the CEO of Apple was wearing polo necks and she's mirroring that kind of look. Well, why? Because there aren't in, in, at this point in Silicon Valley, there aren't a lot of good examples and role models to go. Yeah, absolutely. Perfect. Perfect. You, you too can look like a billionaire Silicon Valley Titan of, of industry. Well, understand, she is being a Titan at this point. She's, she's the youngest female billionaire on paper within Silicon Valley at the moment. She is quite unique. Her investors, her major investor is the Walton family, the richest family in the world. You know, to make the Saudi royal family have only got half the wealth of the Waltons and they've, they've, they own a country and have a country named after them. Yeah, Saudi Arabia. Yeah. So, so, so she has some incredibly rich investors on her board, by the way, oh, by the way, Murdoch is an, is an investor. It's in the Daily Mail. We always love that. Henry Kissinger on the board, George Schultz on the board, James Matis on the board. So an incredibly powerful board and, and group of financiers and backers around her. So just like females in the past who get into that position, she has lowered a voice. This is not abnormal. Margaret Thatcher, great example, lowered, lowered her voice, right? You always love it when I do that your impersonation and there she is in all her glory. So, so she's lowered her voice. She's aggressive. The head is tilted down. Um, lots of press down of the finger, lots of hands down. So a lot of what I'm seeing, I think is not actually particularly abnormal for somebody at her power level who's new to it or CEOs in general. There. That's all I got for you. That's quite long, isn't it? Oh, that's good. We have made it possible to do comprehensive lab tests from a prick from the finger and to eliminate the tubes and tubes of blood. Yeah. In retrospect, when you, when you look at where you are today, one test with the prick of blood, wasn't that going too far? So we, we have developed hundreds of tests over the course of the last 12 years that can run a tiny sample using proprietary Theranos technology. And part of, when I talk about communicating, what we need to do is we need to get that data out there. And I've talked publicly over the course of the last couple of weeks that we've made a decision now to take the data that we've generated for our FDA submissions and put it into the public domain. And we will. Yeah. But since you're focused on the one test, let's talk about why we're doing that. I have, and by the way, it's not just me that was focused on the one test. That was sort of the story. The Theranos story was all about this one pin prick that would let you do comprehensive blood testing. That was the story. Yeah. Well, well, I think this is what we sort of need to dissect a little bit. So when you look at Theranos, Theranos makes devices, we make chemistries, we make consumables, we make software, and we have a little tube called a nanotainer, which this is nothing. Now, now you're confusing me. How many tests are you doing right now from a simple pin prick as you described in that TED talk? Yeah. So right now, just because of this FDA transition, we're only doing one thing, right? Okay. But that doesn't mean that we don't have the technology to do them or that we haven't done them in the past. And are you confident that you will get the FDA approval to do the 200 that are a standard part of the draw? So there's multiple parts to this. One is the validation of those tests under the lab framework. The other one is the FDA submission. And this is an area of evolving policy that we're working to create a leadership position in. We've never talked publicly about what the status of what we're doing with FDA is because we just hadn't felt that was appropriate until we got into all of this recent press communications. But we're incredibly confident in the data that we've submitted to the agency. We've worked on it for two years. And we've met the standard of comparing our tubes to vacutainers, which are the big tubes that come from the arm. And we're hopeful that we'll see we'll see those. So you feel confident that that vision you laid out nine months ago will still happen that you'll be able to do comprehensive tests from a single person? Absolutely. And we've done it in the past. And we're going to continue to do it in the future. All right. Chase, what do you got? This nonstop head nodding. I want you to watch while she's being asked the question and her head never stops moving. This is her nervous gesture. But I think this is a habitual thing that she's developed to interact with people and to just gain some kind of rapport and get somebody on board. She's been very good at getting somebody on board. And I think that the way she's able to dupe all of these investors was to get a couple of big fish and let their credibility speak for themselves, speak for itself. But she had to get them. She still had to get a couple of people. And I think this is one of those behaviors that she learned, which is extremely unusual behavior. She throws up a stop gesture and a stop gesture is when all of your fingers extend, even if you're like making food in the kitchen, you're listening to this in the background, just try it out. Like if your fingers stretch out all the way, that's what's going to happen if you're trying to stop someone from doing something, you're trying to talk someone out of something, even if your hand's in your pocket or down at your side or in your purse, our hands will extend outward when we're trying to talk someone out of something or get them to stop. So and this is right when she's answering or about to answer the technology question. Do you have the technology to do all these tests? So we've now seen her nodding her head and head shaking is indicative of agreement or disagreement. We know she shakes her head no for disagreement and yes for agreement. And she doesn't really want to confirm anything, only confirming the negatives of like what's not there and what's not present there. And she's making this like container shape with her hands to illustrate these different levels or this different parts. And it shows she's most likely a kinesthetic person, which she uses feeling words, which would be like if I was interrogating her, I would start transitioning into constructing my language that way. But she continues to use these team pronouns of us, our, we run referring to the company. And it's interesting. I want you to see when she starts using self referential pronouns and exactly precisely when we're going to dissect that here in just a second. But people are going to use more team pronouns when they're speaking about something they don't want to fully own. And yes, CEOs are going to do this all the time. But when they're asked direct questions about themselves, this was a direct question about her personally. And she starts answering with team pronouns. That's when it becomes unusual. When she says we're hopeful, her hand kind of tosses out. And when she finally confirms that she's confident about it, she says the words absolutely. And she's shaking her head. No, it is a good data point here because we have established a baseline. Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So I think, you know, that there is this agreement behavior, just as you say that chase, which I think she has evolved, she's learned, she may have been trained a little bit as well in, you know, how do you get people on board? But it is so consistent and so over the top. And I think, you know, ultimately, I think, as you were saying, Greg and Scott and Chase, it's going to evolve into I think almost a self soothing gesture in the end. It's so it's so consistent and ramps up use of the detailed finger gestures there. Just nice to see it's a great one to be able to use, let people know, look, look how big my brain is, you know, because because monkeys can't do that monkeys can do can do this. So the moment you start being more detailed with your fingers, you know, the brain kind of sparks up in the in the neocortex for your audience, and they get really interested in what you're doing. So again, it's a nice way to convince people is to be really delicate and fine with those gestures. Hyperbole, exaggeration in there, which potentially could speak to business speak, but also speak to potential narcissism, psychopathy. It's one of the elements that you might look for in both of those, because she says, well, you know, this is in, there's multiple parts to this. Well, then she comes up with two parts. So, so it's a multiple of two, then, isn't it? There was only one part we thought there's another part, I would say multiple parts would be like, actually three or more, I'd be looking for five, you know, just to kind of build it out a little bit. No, multiple parts to so that I would be I'd say is hyperbole. And then she goes in an element of it, hopeful. There's a little gap, then we don't see us from her very much during this. And we get a little kind of micro duck, the head on that kind of question is, but I think it's about the veracity of the results that they get or the technology. Hopefully, our duck of the head. At that point, I would be going short on this stock. It's not a public company. So I'd have no way of doing this. It's all private investors. So, you know, ultimately, this is not really hurting the public as an as investors. It's incredibly, incredibly rich families are involved in this. But it is hurting the public in terms of their faith in medical equipment. I think that's the real issue here. Hopefully, a duck of the head. At that point, I would be going, No, this doesn't look good at all. I don't like what I'm seeing there. Greg, what are you, Greg? What do you got on this one? Yeah, so I start off by saying even the interviewer sees her sleight of hand in her chaff and redirects. So he starts to put her on notice and he says, you're confusing me with and her head bob rates starts to increase. So I teach people that when you're listening to an argument, if you nod quietly, the person will divulge information. I don't teach them to do this constantly like the dog in the window, you know, little bobblehead dogs or that kind of thing that you get. We always say that organism does what makes organism successful. She rose to prominence by being among people and persuading them. Now, if they fell for that in the beginning and she shook her head a little and that just continued, then she would evolve and she would do more of that. And she surrounded herself with experts. And I always say, one way to make yourself an expert is by association. If I hang out with the right experts, then I'm an expert too. And people fall for that. It just works that way. If you watch her, when he asked her how many tests she grips her hand, you also watch that her hands only come up and speak when she is certain of what she's going to say. Her hands stop otherwise. Chase, I love the fact you caught her doing absolutely when she says that only for negative things otherwise. And you can see that she's falling apart there. She's doing this romance or thing we talk about by staring you right in the eyes as she dumps a lot of chaff. And then her head does become an illustrator. One of the few times she uses her head to make her point when she's talking about the FDA. She is shrinking to your point, Scott. She's shrinking in that chair and getting smaller and smaller by the minute. And she's using something that I call insulator or we call insulator in the truth crime workshop because she is using jargon that you have to dissect. She's talking about micro containers and vacuum container, whatever she's talking about there. She's using that not only as a piece of jargon, but she even explains what she means by it just so that she can burn up more airtime. This is a way for her to burn up space. And the last thing I'll leave you with is I've been in business a long time and worked with a lot of business leaders. Words like hopeful believe, I always say to people who are leaders, those are church words, not business words. Think, know, understand our business words. So anytime I hear those from somebody and all the way from teaching project managers, all the way up to partners who are CEOs and that, I would say, don't use those words. Those do not instill confidence. So that's what I see. I would not believe her. And I'm with you, Mark. I would have been like, hold on, red flag, red flag. Scott, what do you got? Yeah. She feels the news tightening at this point. So again, she's getting, as she gets a little bit more stress and this guy's a little bit loud, that voice starts, that throat starts to constrict a little bit and she's trying to keep it low, but it's staying in the middle. And it's what makes her voice sound so out at this point. And she starts adapting using that ankle. And her regulator, you're right, Jason, she comes out and puts that hang on a minute trying to get control of what's going on because it's getting away from her. She's, she's, she's bobbing and weaving at this point. Now they're small illustrators are small when she gets to that because of the FDA transition and all that. They get really small because she's thinking, thinking, thinking, how am I going to get out of this? I can't, I can't believe anybody would, would, would buy this at this. I mean, I train people how to look for this when they're talking to entrepreneurs, the VCs that are all going to watch for this. And I've trained somebody, I can't believe that, that she got past this, which makes me think there's other people with her. It's not just her. There's other people that have helped make this happen, knowing it was at the same time. They had to have known that. They had to have known that. Again, you, you guys are right. Like the wicked witch, the West man, she's getting smaller and smaller. She goes along. And the second half, her illustrators are big again, you know, and she's, um, and she comes out and that's after that second question, swinging for the damn fences, man, she's coming on hard with that. Just so, she's just going for it. Um, but a barrier arm and that thing stays strong. She's right there, barrier, barrier it in and she's just, and she's going with it. So I can't, I can't get, I cannot believe somebody would believe this. Of course, we know what to look for, but still there, I know for a fact there are people like us that help VCs look at these people. I can't believe that, that she got this far with this. I'm dumbfounded by, by this. Anybody would believe it. Even hearing it now. So I didn't stand up in the audience and go, Hey, wait a minute, man. That's, you know, there's no way you could, I can't believe that didn't happen. This has nothing to do with this. Now you're confusing me. How many tests are you doing right now from a simple pinprick as you described in that TED talk? Yeah. So right now, just because of this FDA transition, what we're only doing one, right? Okay. But that doesn't mean that we don't have the technology to do them or that we haven't done them in the past. And are you confident that you will get the FDA approval to do the 200 that are a standard part of the, the draw? Well, we've, so there's, there's multiple parts to this. One is the validation of those tests under the lab framework. The other one is the FDA submission. And this is an area of evolving policy that we're working to create a leadership position in. We've never talked publicly about what the status of what we're doing with FDA is, because we just hadn't felt that was appropriate until we got into all of this recent press communications. But we're incredibly confident in the data that we've submitted to the agency. We've worked on it for two years. And we've met the standard of comparing our tubes to vacutainers, which are the big tubes that come from the arm. And we're hopeful that we'll see, we'll see those. So you feel confident that that vision you laid out nine months ago will still happen, that you'll be able to do comprehensive tests from a single pregnancy? Absolutely. And we've done it in the past. And we're going to continue to do it in the future. I can't believe what you're going to say, Greg. Yeah. So a few things. We're using a lot of language in here, assuming that everyone knows what we're talking about. Illustrators. I'm illustrating and punctuating what my brain is thinking. Either word, phrase, or thought. Barriers. I'm putting something between me and you. Adapters. I'm rubbing my hands. I'm gripping my leg. I'm doing that. And then finally, regulators, you're going to see her use them a lot. Regulators. Stop. Hold on. Wait. Go ahead. Speed up. Stop. All those kinds of things that we use. So those four things, guys, we need to remind everybody because not everyone has watched us many times. All you new subscribers, this is for you. Oh yeah. Yeah, please subscribe. I feel like what we're doing. Please subscribe. This has nothing to do with it. Now you're confusing me. How many tests are you doing right now from a simple pinprick as you described in that TED talk? Yeah. So right now, just because of this FDA transition, we're only doing one. But that doesn't mean that we don't have the technology to do them or that we haven't done them in the past. And are you confident that you will get the FDA approval to do the 200 that are a standard part of the draw? So there's multiple parts to this. One is the validation of those tests under the lab framework. The other one is the FDA submission. And this is an area of evolving policy that we're working to create a leadership position in. We've never talked publicly about what the status of what we're doing with FDA is because we just hadn't felt that was appropriate until we got into all of this recent press communications. But we're incredibly confident in the data that we've submitted to the agency. We've worked on it for two years. And we've met the standard of comparing our tubes to vacutainers, which are the big tubes that come from the arm. And we're hopeful that we'll see we'll see those. So you feel confident that that vision you laid out nine months ago will still happen, that you'll be able to do comprehensive tests from a single. Absolutely. And we've done it in the past. And we're going to continue to do it in the future. What are you going to do with the business leaders? No, you're you're one of your business partners, of course, was Walgreens, which has publicly said they've they're stopping expansion to new stores of fairness, which is only in Arizona right now, right? Well, they haven't said that to us, but they have not said that to you. Not not to us. No. So you still expect to to build out to Walgreens stores? Well, we're talking with them. And we were at a point in which we'd completed our rollout in Phoenix and we're looking at what the next steps in that relationship are. They've they've been a great partner with us in the context of our work in Phoenix. Do you think given what you know now about your your technology and the regulatory challenges and so forth, do you think this company is a $9 billion company? Well, I think that's for investors to decide. But so far, no problem. Do you have all the money you need to get through this tough period? Absolutely. You have no problem with financing. Well, I mean, it's a very loaded term. We're definitely not in a position in which we need to raise capital right now. We have very Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so for me now, she's heavily into that head nodding. I think it's become for me more of a pacifier than a rhetorical technique of engaging people. But guys, you know, let me know what you think about about that one. For me, it's a pacifier now. She creates what I would call instead of a word salad, it's a word lasagna, because there's so many layers to it. There's just so many, you know, when you you eat some pan, you get some meat, and then there's some Bechamel sauce and there's so many layers to it. But net net at the end of whatever she says there in that word lasagna, I think net net is probably not whatever whatever is asked net net is probably not I think it's you know, they're going to work with Walgreens anymore and the Walgreens tell you they're out. I think as you go down the lasagna, it's like, yeah, they're not they're not going to do that. When the I'll let investors decide I see lip retraction on that. So there's concern. I think there's already concern that the investors are getting upset about this very powerful investors she has. She has there who would probably if they were duped probably get quite upset because it's not that they can't afford it. I mean, they can totally afford it. They can totally afford it, but they don't like being being made to look like idiots. Okay, they don't or they've got so much money that they just don't care and they can blow it. Remember, this is an eight billion dollar company on paper. It didn't cost the investors eight billion. Okay, it cost them anywhere near eight billion. The the the evaluation of this is massive compared to the initial investment of people, which wasn't much for them. But it makes them look a little bit silly. Like you say, Scott, you know, why can't they see that this is vaporware? Well, you know, it takes lying is a very important social skill. And the world of investment is a society, especially when it comes to these uber wealthy family offices. And so and so to tell a lie, you need to lie and you need somebody who's going to accept that lie. Because as Scott was saying there, I don't know why anybody's not going I don't accept that. That's clearly vaporware. That's nonsense. Well, if you're part of that of that family office situation, you need you need these kind of deals to show up every now and again, and you need one of them every now and again to be true, because you missed out straight away on Amazon, you miss and understand, they sit around dinner tables going, Hey, did we you an early investor in company X? No. Okay, they want to be able to say they got in super early on something because they're smarter than all the rest. But listen, you know, on the whole, far from the head, far from the head, she's quite still and controlled in a lot of her body. And I think that's because, you know, as you said there, Scott, you know, she's hanging on to that leg for dear life, she's hanging on to other parts of her body, and really kind of knuckling down there, a bit of a white knuckle right, but that head is is going crazy on that. Chase, what do you got on this one? This reminds me that quote from Caddyshack, when Chevy Chase talks about betting against Rocky in the movie. And then he follows up with, yeah, hindsight's 2020, my friend. Right. So, I want you to try and see how many times you can spot her using the word I in this clip. When we roll it again, I want you to see how many times she owns anything. Six. I think it's continuously awkward how she's just nodding her head. And we're starting to see the first signs of nervousness here, talking about Walgreens, just closing her hand onto a wrist. There's some nervous adapting movement here at Is Your Company Worth $9 billion. Right arm's going crazy. The lips tighten up. There's chin boss movement there. And do you have all the money you need to get through all this? We see a lot more here. We see digital flexion. We see more tight lips. We see nervousness. And we see the classic super mega fake smile. I think that's the scientific name for that. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so she starts off with that head bob rate again is fairly fast, but it speeds up. And it's not a nod. It's a bob. I mean, her whole body is lean forward, so her head is bobbing and moving weird. You know, like a woodpecker or something, I guess it's the best way to look at it. We could create a new name for it. Of course, she's probably the only person we're ever going to see do it. So there's that. But she grabs her leg and I agree with you markets become an adapter, a way to release nervous energy is all it is, because it increases as she feels more nervous and decreases as she feels less nervous. You'll also watch that she illustrates with her hands when she starts to talk about Arizona. You can see she is very uncomfortable. Her chin drops. She shrinks even more when it gets to the Walgreens thing. And then she doesn't answer the question. She says they haven't said that to us later. We'll hear her say there's a specific way she expects communication from customers. And I would guess the same thing from vendors. She's controlling the conversation in this case. Her hands illustrate when she's confident on that message around Arizona. But there are no illustrators at all around is your company worth $9 billion. She redirects quickly and says, well, it's not for me to decide it's for somebody else. She does a nervous smile and lip compression slight, but still lip compression. Then as the question comes, do you have enough finances? She parses the question. I'm going to reframe the question and answer however I want. Well, that could mean lots of things. Well, no, it means one thing. Do you have enough money to run this business? That means something very specific. What she was wanting is a question about liquidity or something very pointed. And she would have answered that question. This is that CEO technique about only answer what you're asked. If you don't frame the question, well, I'm not going to give you the answer. Scott, what do you got? Okay, sorry. Okay. Anyway, if you have a company and you have a valuation of $9 billion and you act like she's acting, you would see that as an outsider and go, hey, man, something's not right here. Something's not right here. There's a guy named Michael Burcham and he was the CEO of the Nashville Entrepreneur's Center. He could smell this just things just like this from a mile away. And back to your point, Mark, about how it's a social thing. There's a social component to investors and BCs and things. For example, in Nashville, most of everybody knows everybody and there's a specific, there's groups and cliques, but everybody knows everybody. You go to Boston, it's the same thing. Everybody knows everybody. In Washington, same thing, Texas, you get out to anywhere in the U.S. that is known as an investing city where they do that. They have groups, social groups. And when you get in there and somebody starts talking like this, this guy, Michael Burcham, no matter who it was in the group, would go, not this isn't right because one person will say, all right, I'm getting into this. What do you guys think? And they'll all say, here's why I don't. Here's why it didn't look good to me or whatever. They're very guarded with that. And I agree with Mark on the part where everybody wants to have that one hit, but they all want to make sure they make their 10 to 20 X return on that. So it's something you have to be talked into it. If you don't believe in it, you have to be shown some stuff that's just unbelievable. However, in this case, I think what's happened is she's gotten some big names right out of the gate. And people say, okay, he's into it, it must work. And from that one on is when the dominoes start falling from whoever that first person was, that's what made them fall. I don't know who it is, no clue. But Mark my words, that's your key. They're getting that first person because that's when they kept saying, yeah, we need to get into this. I hate to keep talking about Michael Burcham. But one thing he always crammed into my mind was CEOs are always looking for funding. They're always looking for money. Always. If you have a valuation of $9 billion, you try to get another $9 billion. You don't say now we have enough money. You never say that. I can't believe she said that. I can't believe somebody didn't go, oh no, we messed up. This isn't working. The part where she talks about being in Phoenix and the Walmart and they have this big relationship there, that may be. But any of us could get a relationship with Whole Foods for a new drink or a new health bar that we have because they're real good at helping entrepreneurs get started. So you can have it in that one town at that one store and say, I'm part of Whole Foods. I'm in there. So when they're in Phoenix, it didn't work. That's why they're saying noop because they gave her a test and the test failed when they tested in that market. She was saying they could do all these tests and things. This is why I think it goes down to psychopathy as well because she did not care about the health of these people. If they had cancer, if they had diabetes, whatever they had, she didn't give up about any of that. She just kept saying, yeah, this works. This works and to make money. My number one bell and whistle and red flag about why I go down to psychopathy road for her because normal people do not do that, wouldn't treat the masses and say, here, you're not sick when they didn't know if you are or not. So I'm getting all worked up. But I just can't believe these people invested in this, listened to her at this point and go, do you need our money out of that? One of your business partners, of course, was Walgreens, which has publicly said they're stopping expansion to new stores of Theranus, which is only in Arizona right now. Well, they haven't said that to us. They have not said that to you. Not to us, no. So you still expect to build out to Walgreens stores? Well, we're talking with them. And we were at a point in which we'd completed our rollout in Phoenix and we're looking at what the next steps in that relationship are. They've been a great partner with us in the context of our work in Phoenix. Do you think, given what you know now about your technology and the regulatory challenges and so forth, do you think this company is a $9 billion company? Well, I think that's for investors to decide. But so far, no problem. Do you have all the money you need to get through this tough period? Absolutely. You have no problem with financing? Well, I mean, it's a very loaded term. We're definitely not in a position in which we need to raise capital right now. So I want to jump in. You've said that the journal's reporting on Theranos has been erroneous and, quote, grounded in baseless assertions. Could you get specific on the key points today and starting with whether you're now at the point where you're only testing for one thing, herpes, using your proprietary technology? Is that correct? It's not correct. And there's a lot of different elements of our work that have been completed through these two pieces. The decision that we made to voluntarily submit all of our tests and test systems to FDA meant that we have to move as a company from the lab framework and quality systems to the FDA framework and quality systems. And our specific recent announcements around what we're doing with our nanotainer tube have to do only with the tube that we use to collect capillary or finger stick blood. And the decision that we made to take those tubes through the FDA clearance process, we've submitted all of our filings around those nanotainer tubes that nanotainer was actually cleared by the FDA for use with our devices and software and first test that we took through the FDA for HSV and now we're taking it through for use with any combination of tests. So once you submit those submissions at a certain point, if you're going to transition from operating under the CLIA lab framework to the FDA framework to be compliant with the use of those nanotainers as an FDA regulated device, you have to move to the FDA quality systems and that's what we've just done. So but at this moment in time then you're not using. All right Greg what do you got? So she starts off leaning back in the chair relatively with her legs open which I'm surprised you know she's not sitting in her normal cross-legged fashion but then the minute the threat comes she turns puts her legs that way and grips that ankle that's her that's her go-to-war bat that's the way she's set she turns in the chair and we can see her nodding her head this looks like data intake like I'm listening and doing the right thing not the boom boom boom move that she was doing earlier at this is not correct when he brings up a point and she says this is not correct you see her tilt her head draw her chin down and look out from under a brow and that taffy pulling move as if she's finding out exactly what the threat is then she goes into an uncharacteristic stammer as she begins her redirect her hands show that she's prepped work and she speeds up at one point as she starts this chaff and redirect she speeds up enough that it looks like she's prepared for the answer this is one that her people have prepared her for and she should answer this way you see her forehead get smooth and then she talks about framework and if you want to know whether this is her normal voice or not she says framework twice listen to the second one that's her normal voice the deep power framework and then the framework goes up as she's asking for approval uh scott what do you got all right you're right uh she's got that knee up uh she completely changes when when she starts she starts feeling the heat from this guy and this is a completely different style of of uh interviewing this guy as compared to the guy we just saw so she's matching and marrying this guy as hard as she can she's talking really slow and really and and doing things so because he's talking really slow and lower so she's doing she's doing the same thing there um gosh there's so much here nobody ever says to her are you lying if this guy had said are you lying about any of this no i don't know why somebody doesn't ask her about that just it's just sorry i'm all over the place on this because i'm she's on my last nerve she got my nerves when i was watching but now that we're talking about it as a group man it's really bothering me um let's see what have i got i got i got two pages worth of stuff here i'm just gonna do a rant like it did last time chase what do you got oh man there you go there he is that was selling it in there too man you're leaning into it too i do i hope you can reproduce whatever that was because that was good wow that was good i don't know what i was saying all right wow i don't need i'm not sure i want to know yeah man all right giving scott hell for being so round up about about poor lisabeth wow all right chase what do you got watcher her head nodding crazily through this entire questionnaire in the beginning and she's still unable to speak about herself even though the questions many of these questions are directed at her and i've studied charisma and and persuasion influence my whole life is what i teach to intelligence people and i firmly believe that she is copying the behavioral patterns and vocal patterns of barack obama and i think she's trying to copy this cadence and tone and just not not thinking about like charisma doesn't come from just copying some basic stuff like that and i think this she's it's the same style of illustration with her hands but i want to talk about narcissism just a little bit more and i'm going to just keep peppering this in throughout the video uh exaggerates achievements this is one of the top diagnostic criteria for narcissism preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success or some kind of unlimited power it's another big one for narcissism uh what about a person that believes that they're unique and should only hang out with special and unique people slash investors requires excessive admiration or dresses like a former apple ceo okay that's not that's not in the criteria but i made that one interpersonally exploitative like takes advantage of or uses people in that person's life they're envious of others they lack empathy like scott was just talking about and shows arrogant behavior or attitudes so these are some hallmarks of clinical narcissism and when someone says clinical before the name of any psychiatric or psychological illness that means it requires or is needing treatment some kind of therapeutic intervention for this so obviously i i'm not diagnosing anybody with a disorder here but these are some of the hallmarks and if you happen to see those here in this video then i would say that you have equal access to make your own judgment mark yeah uh yeah so so i think just as everybody's saying body language uh has kind of just ramped up here from a lot of what we saw in the in the in the first place so let me uh hit on that we see we hear a vocal click a little click in there or i haven't heard that from her before and so i'm a little bit worried about that and then we get a nice big eyebrow raise on the idea of compliant and i want to focus on this because i think ultimately this is her strategy around getting uh or or or suspending the ramifications of this vaporware that has been created in that she's going to blame fda compliance as the hurdle for this technology not performing as it should perform and we'll see this play out down the line and i think that's why we get that lovely big eyebrow raise on that he wants this i think he's the he's the tech editor of the wall street journal uh she's looking for buy-in on that now he very definitely has a has a horse in the race because the argument will will come that the wall street journal have just plain old uh been lying about her she doesn't call them a liar but she gets close she gets close and what a great maneuver i mean that is a really lovely maneuver because just as uh you know you've been saying guys you know why why doesn't this guy just go look you're a liar um being polite i think that's the thing is being polite there's a whole you know there's some politics involved here potentially being polite she is more aggressive less polite and very soon she will really lay down what she thinks about wall street journal that's all i got on that one i think we're all done on that aren't we or greg have you go have you been i think there's something to add guys you know i i've already got mine i think there's something to add something the two of you brought up the more a person behaves in some unique fashion or eccentric the less likely people are to go after them because then they're considered bullies and beating them up and she's got this image she's built that is all this low talking steve job stressing you know all that kind of stuff so nobody jumped on her i think that's part of her facade and part of her defense so i want to jump in um you've said that the journal's reporting on theranos has been erroneous and quote grounded in baseless assertions could you get specific on the key points today and and starting with whether you're now at the point where you're only testing for one thing herpes using your proprietary technology is that correct it's not correct um and there's a lot of different elements of our work that have been conflated through these two pieces um the decision that we made to voluntarily submit all of our tests and test systems to fda uh meant that we have to move as a company from the lab framework and quality systems to the fda framework and quality systems and our specific recent announcements around what we're doing with our nanotainer tube have to do only with the tube that we use to collect capillary or finger stick blood and the decision that we made to take those tubes through the fda clearance process we've submitted all of our filings around those nanotainer tubes that nanotainer was actually cleared by the fda for use with our devices and software and first test that we took through the fda for hsv and now we're taking it through for use with any combination of tests so once you submit those submissions at a certain point if you're going to transition from operating under the clear lab framework to the fda framework to be compliant with the use of those nanotainers as an fda regulated device you have to move to the fda quality systems and that's what we've just done so but at this moment in time then you're not using her so if i went to one of the centers and i got a pinprick and i only gave that much blood right what tests are you currently able to perform for that blood using anything other than commercially available lab equipment so we have never used commercially available lab equipment for finger stick based tests every finger stick test that we have ever done uses proprietary theranos technology that is not commercially available okay i'm right now because we're at a moment in time in which we've decided to transition from the lab framework to the fda framework i think about this kind of like if you have cars driving on a road and you say okay i'm going to take everybody from driving on the right hand side of the road to the left hand side of the road the only way to do that is to pause right okay cut over and so as a result because we have voluntarily decided not to use our nanotainer tubes until we cut over to the left hand side of the road which we now have the fda quality systems in place to do this yeah i'm we are not collecting the finger stick sample for anything except for HSV that has nothing to do with what we can run on our devices in our lab it has nothing to do with our tests it has nothing to do with our testing methodology or the accuracy or performance of it all right uh mark what do you got yeah uh so i'm just going to say uh two things here um i the lot of suppression gestures now uh which i which you know i think you guys would call um regulators and they're and i would call moderators because these specific regulators are about her moderating the conversation and just saying look stop that i think she's really on the back foot now she wants this to to stop because he's been really specific about that he said we're going well if i get a pin and i prick and a little bit of blood like what can you actually do with that he's he's managed to narrow it down and so she's now got to explode it up now got to reject his his premise and explode it up into some kind of word lasagna in order that we won't be able to see where where the lies are essentially so um uh lots of nods lots of looks to approval nothing nothing new there uh the the only other thing i'd say is there's a lovely for her quite big downturn of the mouth right at the end of this i think she spends a lot of time serving up this word lasagna at the end of it she's like oh that was i don't think she's pleased with herself uh at the end of this one greg what do you got on this one yeah that last one i'm with you it's in my notes there's a change in her mouth at the end that is uncharacteristic and there's a request for approval at the same time kind of that so you can't miss that she knows she's not delivered well there she starts off if you notice her head movement here remember i talked about frequency but also how much movement she has the the amount of movement is much lighter and much more rapid so that's an indicator as you said it's an adapter it's a way to release nervous energy and so she's really nervous and frequency is moving up and the amount she's moving her head has decreased i love the fact she picks up his word anchors and chaffs like nobody's business meaning when we say chaff and redirect we mean like a plane spraying all this chaff out the back to make a missile follow he says something she picks up on a word commercially available or a term and she runs away with it and when she does that in fact she does a little lip grip when she says commercially available which means withholding information or emotion as she gets to the message and she gets down into this chaff and redirect then her hands start to come up and she starts to talk she does a two-handed defense she's doing regulators as you were saying mark to control the conversation my favorite is i'm going to regulate you and point out how good i am at the same time that's one of my favorites i've seen a long time that's a hell of a lot of arrogance to do that to somebody when you put your hand in someone's face and then talk about yourself that's a hell of a lot of arrogance and that's what i got um chase what you got wow you're gonna go to profundity man i was waiting on that i was getting so good about not doing that yeah all right guys sorry scott i know you have to edit all this out oh yeah i mean you think i'm gonna edit that out baby that's it's not going anywhere especially since you said it all right this nodding that she's doing is killing me i can't take this nodding behavior so one thing that that we see here is she is acting like a nano explainer and not just a nano container that didn't even get scott i think i think i think just just carry on and see how long you can possibly hold that yeah let's do it yeah yeah cool is bluff so one thing we're seeing here that you're not going to see in a lot of the other videos is immediate mouth closure after the statement the statement's over and the mouth closes within a tenth of a second and she continues to dig deeper here there's a baton gesture which greg i'm not sure what you guys call that i know you're on mute and scott's frozen or frozen yeah illustrator but a baton is is a yeah that function of illustrator yeah yeah so a baton is when we talk in our hand is at the accentuation or that right at the syllable of what we're saying and there's a baton gesture on every single syllable here when she starts to answer this keep going call is bluff see who crumbles first i think it's unusual here that she won't speak for herself she's uh turning everything into this is about the company this is not about me and i think part of this is a diversion of guilt that if she can make it about them and about everybody there then she doesn't have to own it if anything ever happens because i i'm damn sure that she's worried about this coming into light so right at the end again immediate mouth closure with a confirmation glance back to the interviewer which is not both of those are not within her normal baseline scott what do you got other than a cramp in your neck wow no i just can't see uh do you want should i call the ambulance i got hot chicken waiting up there that'll wake me up and yeah oh yeah all right this is this is a huge lie and her blink her blink rate plummets at this point and as we're going as she goes through this um she shrinks again she shrinks and she's using her barriers she guys cover most everything and uh again i think she's had a lot of help with this because nobody can both while you can ball face lie to somebody like this if you're a psychopath if you're if there's something wrong with your megal there's something wrong with the olympic system in there here's why i think so uh chase she can look at somebody and stare at him without blinking like i just did and not feel weird about it what's coming out of her mouth it's just it's it's it's a huge lie every bit of it nothing in there is true she can't do any of that stuff and she's looking at this guy dead on and just saying like it's nothing it's not bothering her and having been able to do this to everyone up to this point like that again not caring about the health of who knows how many people that they this would affect it they would have found out eventually obviously didn't care about that but it doesn't bother her as as as a psychopath what happens is your amygdala don't work properly your doesn't work properly there's two of them they're about the size of of almonds and they're about this high up and you go in about what is an inch and a half and they come down like that and they're either not working properly they're not functioning properly they're missing or they're damaged and that's the part of the olympic system that lets you have empathy for people for little animals for little children for other people and somebody hits their hand with their thumb with a hammer you go oh gosh i bet that hurt they don't have that so they don't know that it's weird to keep looking at you that's the psychopathic stare so when you see someone in a bar and they keep looking at you like this from a classroom and don't quit and it makes it feel weird it's because it doesn't make them feel weird they don't know they can't read the social cues in the room like a normal person can and she can't read the social cues on this guy as she as as he becomes uncomfortable as she's continues to him and that that's a big sign of that for me that's in on the on in the list you go down there they can't read they can read some facial expressions fear they can read they see that that's someone they cue into but she's not seeing fear here she can't read what this guy's doing or what he's thinking or what other people she's talked to us are thinking or have thought up to that point and apparently they were believing her because of what they've mistaken for confidence in her not looking away and keep dead eye on them at this point and then you're right there at the end she looks like do you believe me or things kind of change like do you believe me that kind of face um yeah so that that's what i got that's that's another list reasons i think she's we're dealing with psychopath here yeah i don't think she answered the question what i don't think i don't think she like you guys hear my dog having a nightmare back there no no uh-oh no he's doing little barks i thought it was gonna ruin you you talk it i'm sorry oh no i don't think i don't think she i don't think she's told a lie i think she just avoided answering the question she didn't say we can do this she just avoided it i i agree but she doesn't see the cues on this guy to go i wonder if she's missing everything watch that what to keep it keep it on the other guy as well and she nods her head you know how many times she nods her head coming out of the gate there and that answer as he's talking to her at the beginning 58 times 58 knots that's a hell that's a hell that's just a whole of the one two three four five count them go back through and count them this time when you watch this back through 58 times she nods her head um that's just not normal none of this is normal i think she's feeling stress is the reason she's moving her head yeah it could be i don't know i don't know i'm not embarrassed i didn't count i didn't have a number at all and you have i agree yes nod count yeah that's a lot of them it's a lot of them all right is that everybody yep let's move along so if i went to one of the centers and i got a pinprick um and i only gave that much blood right what tests are you currently able to perform for that blood using anything other than commercially available lab equipment so we have never used commercially available lab equipment for finger stick based tests every finger stick test that we have ever done uses proprietary theranos technology that is not commercially available okay i'm right now because we're at a moment in time in which we've decided to transition from the lab framework to the fda framework i think about this kind of like if you have cars driving on a road and you say okay i'm going to take everybody from driving on the right hand side of the road to the left hand side of the road the only way to do that is to pause right okay cut over and so as a result because we have voluntarily decided not to use our nanotainer tubes until we cut over to the left hand side of the road which we now have the fda quality systems in place to do this yeah i'm we are not collecting the finger stick sample for anything except for hsv that has nothing to do with what we can run on our devices in our lab it has nothing to do with our tests it has nothing to do with our testing methodology or the accuracy or performance of it had a um an inspection by the fda this year yeah um my understanding is unannounced and that they communicated with you that this was because they had some concerns with the efficacy of the data that they were seeing from some of your results true i'm so i have several answers to this i mean first i am never going to get on stage and make comments about what the fda thinks because it's not my place to do that i can tell you what i can say about it which is that we got our systems cleared by fda at the end of july at the end of august fda did an inspection at theranos the inspection was about our compliance with quality systems regulations it was a qsr audit which is the quality system regulation audit um and that was what they focused on in the audit yeah so that being conflated with you know is there concerns about our testing method methodology which was what was written in the wall street journal article is just completely false all right greg what do you got so right out of the gate she's using something i call sacred space and it's the first time we've seen it sacred space means i create a barrier to give me some space put my hands or some object between me and you and then i mill my fingers or thumbs and you can see she's milling her thumbs first time we've seen that from her that's an indicator her stress level is up and she needs comfort her head bob which we said is an adapter as well is moving much shorter distance and much more rapidly that really indicates that her stress levels have risen as well so she's she knows there's a threat here she actually blinks in this case and she has a nervous smile at the side of her mouth when she's asked a question now she goes to stammer the second time we'll hear in this whole interview and this time she goes i um so i her blink rate goes up she has a half smile she goes down to inner voice and then she says i have several answers and of course she does but she's using word i which is rare she usually only uses a word i for speaking i said this i said that she does blame sharing as i refer to it using a pronoun to share cross with other people we at every turn and then she says i am never going to speak for the fb fda and you see a little grief muscle in that then she goes back to her pronoun use which is where she starts to flip back and forth to when i speak and when we do something and she does down right when they're talking about compliance her eye movement goes down to the right which i typically associate with an emotional moment then she sits back in her hand in the chair with her hands up as in helplessness but her elbows are at her side and when she says that and we typically associate that with stress or fear do you want to look believable raise your elbows away from your side and then she does some odd withdrawal of her lips it is just completely false there's an extension before you're saying it's a lie there's an extension before you're denying something by putting more words in and a quick lip compression that's what i got uh mark what do you got yeah not a great deal on this just that you know she does all of that work really again on her back foot she's being pushed quite hard here um to simply attack at the end and go you know you're being false it's quite it's quite bold uh what she's saying there but but one thing i will add to this because i think it's kind of quite interesting but ultimately it's a bit of kind of pop psychology so take it with whatever you want to is i did you know off the top of my head kind of run the hair test test donor which is the hair test is the is the psychopathy test again look there's all you can go and find it on the internet and and have a look at it and um it's usually administered as a bit of a self uh test as i recall um and so there's all kinds of there's all kinds of problems with it but as a bit of fun by no means any kind of of diagnosis um being generous to her uh on psychopathy she she scored a 26 out of out of 40 so she actually didn't in my mind didn't score that that highly so scores pretty well in terms of narcissist but on the grand scheme of of psychopath not hugely because the hair test has all kinds of areas in it um you know that you'd seen violent violent violent criminals uh where it would become kind of sociopathic to an extent um anyway but having said that you know a 25 in the UK is enough i don't know why you've got to get more in in America you don't need as high a score in the UK uh for some reason now here's where i'm going with this if i factor in you know having hung around corporations a lot and worked in a lot of corporations if i factor in the culture and go i don't know whether that's her i reckon that's probably cultural for me she only scores a 16 and so again i want to bring in this idea that you've got to look at the culture here and go what could be cultural about you know telling stories like she's telling stories or lying like she's lying and what is actually her because there is one train of thought that says well there aren't really any individuals uh there's just um groups of of people there's culture it's just they don't often show up with everybody else so they look like individuals like it was Margaret Thatcher who put forward partly that that idea uh but make she may have been sociopathic perfect anyway that was just uh because i got not not much else to say on this chase what do you got on it yeah and the uh the hair test is one of the only diagnostic criteria we have if you look in the hold on you look in this book here it's the dsm this is how we diagnose or people diagnose mental disorders or psychiatric disorders there's no psychopath in here there's no sociopath in this book so the hair test is one of the closest things we have the biggest criticism of the hair test is that it places excessive or unusual amount of weight on criminal activity specifically and we're going to talk about that in a minute i'm going to walk you through the hair test that was my plan for this video nice walk through the hair test and maybe i'll get into a fight with scott but uh in this video she nods to confirm what the fda said she's nodding in confirmation to what the fda said and she speaks for herself but only to tell you what she won't talk about and the interviewer did not ask what the fda thinks he asked what they said and she responds i'm not going to tell you what they think and then she goes back to team pronouns eyebrows are raised constantly there's nodding constantly throughout the whole thing and this fake voice gets even deeper at the end of the clip and uh i think the diagnostic term for this is creepy as hell uh for me according to me scott yeah that's a little technical but i can go with that sorry um yeah so we'll get it if we're going to get in the hair test i'll i'll save all my stuff for that um at the end of her sentences they all go up like she's given facts this is classic to i mean to the max this is she's trying to sell this guy like she sold everybody else on this here's what we do this is why it works this is the this and this is that they said this we believe this and like she's laying them out like they're facts and looking at the guy like these are facts and they're not and um she's gonna have nerves of steel to be able to do this with with a straight face like that semi straight because she is getting a little of a smile and there you call that duping delight delight if you want to i don't know though that that's in this case i don't i don't think it plays in that um her illustrators are they go out they get a little they get a little bit wider as she gets into her her um she's a con is what she is so she's she begins calling they get a little bit wider as she's trying to sell this guy and um the antisocial behavior that we're seeing here that that isn't in the dsm is the part where again she cannot read this guy's facial expressions or the emotions going on with this guy as he's looking at her and there's not there's not tons there but there's enough to go he doesn't believe me you know she can she's she's got an idea that he doesn't believe her because of the question obviously but i but she can't she can't see that on she can't read it so i think that's what we're seeing at that point had a um an inspection by the fda this year yeah um my understanding is unannounced and that they communicated with you that this was because they had some concerns with the efficacy of the data that they were seeing from some of your results true um so i have several answers to this i mean first i am never going to get on stage and make comments about what the fda thinks because it's not my place to do that i can tell you what i can say about it which is that we got our systems cleared by fda at the end of july at the end of august fda did an inspection at theranos the inspection was about our compliance with quality systems regulations it was a qsr audit which is the quality system regulation audit and that was what they focused on in the audit so that being conflated with you know is there concerns about our testing method methodology which was what was written in the wall street journal article is just completely false surely you can describe what they communicated to you about why they came for that inspection they told us that they were here because we're now fda regulated they wanted to learn more about our work and they wanted to understand our compliance with the quality system would that have been an unannounced visit to do just that it was unannounced i mean i'm i'm not fda you know but i read what was written in the article we disagree with it we think it was false and we think it was misleading and i know what we've done which is the decision to voluntarily work with the agency we interact with them all the time i'm we've chosen to take a path that is hard and i believe in it incredibly strongly because it's the right thing to do and i personally in arizona worked very hard to change the law to allow individuals the right to order lab tests directly and i can't do that without knowing that the tests that are offered are of the highest quality so we decided yeah this is hard and yeah this means we need to transition and yes it means there's going to be a pause period as we do this with all these tests and systems but what an amazing thing that people are going to be able to use technology that's been regulated in this way right and so we're going to do it right mark where do you got yeah nothing on body language here just the narrative that she's putting forward which i think is is really interesting there's three characters i think here there's the fda there's the wall street journal and there's we so her and ferenos um here's how she describes the fda the fda learn they understand they're unannounced they're regulatory and they're an agency is any of that good i mean do you when i describe that character do you go oh that sounds really good to me um the wall street journal she says are false and misleading that's all she says about that character false and misleading anything part of there so we got these two characters here fda wall street journal fda are having to learn stuff they need to understand they come in unannounced they're regulators and they're an agency you know unannounced regulatory agency just coming wall street journal false and misleading now we we her and ferenos are compliant they think they're regulated they're voluntary they're interactive they choose the hard path they believe in the right thing they're hardworking individual direct high quality decision making you know uh transitioning amazing pausing and technology i mean there's a lot of really good stuff in there but how brilliantly she's cast these three characters and what does she talk most about now again you can make all kinds of you know diagnosis around that and you'd be right to why not why not why not do that but also you'd have to look at her you know if kater if she was on your side she'd be quite handy to have on your side because she did a very good job there of clearly casting these three characters here and very quickly in our minds delivering you know two villains and a hero in this so actually you know nice corporate communication there um if she was on on your side and on the right side uh scott what do you go on this one all right yeah i agree with you she'd be great to have if you're in a pinch for the one time because she can get you out of the fight but whether she'd win the war or not obviously in this case you're not going to win the war but she can definitely get you out of that scrap really fairly easily she's got nerves of steel in this her posture is much better here actually you know as she goes along her voice starts higher but it begins to go lower she gets deeper and deeper into this um and it's we we we then it's i i i as you go along you've covered all this mark and um she tells the story of a hero and she's the hero that's and she tells about her troops which are all these people that is that's the we part as we're doing this and i think i and that's the right thing to do you know this is i i can't this is this is a malignant narcissist at this point no violence in the background i don't i'm not aware of any drug use or anything like that in the background those are a bit those are a big part of the hair test as well i'm not aware of any of that but everything else to me seems like it's lining up chase what do you got there is a book called the secret life of pronouns here and i forgot the author i wish i could remember i know he was at the university of texas have on my kindle but it's a fabulous book and one cool thing in this book is that leaders are more likely to use the term i instead of we and i would have thought the opposite was true so good leaders will use i more often just wanted to throw that out there so now we're seeing her nodding again this is just a i think a compulsive behavior derived from years of scamming out some investors and and having to develop rapport and as a side note psychopaths don't see themselves as psychopaths they most often don't know that they're psychopaths and they see themselves as having a deficit versus other people because they don't see themselves as different from other people they see themselves as oh crap those other people have everything figured out and i don't and i need to figure it out as fast as possible i don't know if scott you'll agree with me on that or not but i agree with you completely because they james pennabaker that's the guy that's the author that's it so what happens is when they find out they usually find out in their early to mid 20s and they'll live in it they'll live in a city somewhere there's a lot of action going on you don't find many psychopaths in little small towns they're there but but once they just once they get that that no they've got to go somewhere the action is they'll move let's say tenashville for example and i'll use this as the example they would move to nashville and they'd live like on second avenue or all the action is and because it gives them that's one of the few things it gives them feeling is sex drugs and then action things going on their adrenaline their adrenaline system will goose them sometimes and give them something so they would get a place to live like down on second avenue in a loft or something and it would be friday night and it would be around suppertime and they'd say well i'm gonna go down and get something to eat i'm gonna go eat chinese food and they go down the street and they start walking down the street and about halfway down they see an ambulance see a bunch of police cars there's a lot going on a bunch of people huddled around down there and as they got closer to this they'd see they knew they would know something important's happening but they're not really sure why why what's making it important they get closer and closer as they come up on it there's a little child that's running been over by a car and it's obviously passed away and the mother's over the child crying and screaming and hollering and you know my baby all that kind of business and the psychopath sees this and it says sweet and sour chicken i'm gonna do sweet and sour chicken and goes on and gets sweet and sour chicken comes back home get back home and eats it right has sweet and sour chicken after that about two hours later maybe an hour or two hours later they're in the bathroom looking in the mirror trying to mimic those expressions they saw on the mother because they don't know what those are they've seen them before but they know they're important because everyone was focused on that person while they were making these expressions that's when it starts to dawn on them something's not right here i don't fit in i've got to pretend like i know what's going on and learn what all these things these expressions that these people make the things they say i've got to learn about those and so i'll know what they are and i'll fit in with everyone else they do the same thing with language they'll hear people get upset for example there was a guy that that i knew that was one didn't know it was one until this happened one time i was that we were at a social gathering and we were talking about taxes and i was i was going on and i was like damn taxes you know you have to pay you do all this work and you got to pay the half-eared taxes and months later i'm in a i'm in a restaurant downtown you know during the day my i had a meeting there and in the table behind us we're in a place called the palm and in the bar area there you can get in and eat lunch and get out but there was somebody sitting behind me and i recognized the voice and they were saying the exact same thing i was when i was carrying on about taxes he was saying damn taxes i can't believe that you got to pay all that i was matching what i said because he doesn't he didn't understand that the emotions i'm showing were where he doesn't know he doesn't have those feelings so he has to show everybody he has feelings so he mimics those and you'll see him mimic crying and mimic um getting angry about things where normally other things would make him angry getting angry about things they don't understand why they should get angry about just to show where the other people they're normal does that make sense yeah going too long no it was great okay good let me wrap and i'll just throw it throw it back okay every facial expression in this whole entire clip is fake it's all fake and here's a quick master class i would not call this a master class you could fit this on a post-it note but here's how to tell a fake versus a real facial expression there's a couple of ways to do it but here's a very powerful one if you see a facial expression instantly disappear from the person's face it's most likely fake true facial expressions will tend to fade away because you don't have to think about making a facial expression so it comes from a very different part of your brain than faking it she refers to herself again to say what she can't do and there's one more self-reference again about how she worked hard to change the law i think that's truthful i think she was trying to change that law and there's a self-reference again to this decision to work with the FDA and i think it's hilarious that this giant government organization what did they really want to do they wanted to come and learn from her company so what she's really saying here i'm kind of doing a boat in on this but what she's saying here is that she's a teacher now i am teaching this giant government agency with my ideas and my intelligence i am so smart this government agency yeah this surprise inspection was i had to teach them they wanted me to come they wanted to come out here so i could teach them about all this new technology which is uh insane scott yeah i think i went i went earlier didn't i go earlier i think i did i was been ranting the whole time i've lost track of time who's all right mark mark what do you got uh i've been i think it must be great yeah all right guys greg yes so guys at this point yes i agree that all of this stuff is crafted i think everything we're seeing is crafted everything about this young woman is crafted from the bobbing her head and all of that to bending over to crossing her legs this way everything is crafted mark probably a character you could have drawn up and you know when you're teaching people to act and scott i don't think she has nerves of steel i think she has an act and she's acting and she's hiding behind that act and it allows her to get away with some of this because i do see her get nervous i do see that even though she's doing this i don't think that she controls the speed or the frequency at which she moves her head i think that is a nervous behavior because she's gotten to the point you said it best chase she's done it so long that it's an innate part of who she is when she gets to the point that she has something to regurgitate she does she spits out this information about what the fda did and that was probably prepared by comms person in her company remember this is a big company this is not her and she does a request for approval to see how she's perceived there she sits up more rigidly than she has in the past and she stops illustrating and when she stops illustrating is when i start to think hmm something's up here she adapts her knee and she gets this kind of odd look we haven't seen yet with a full toothy smile and a nervous laugh and a flat forehead with kind of a deer in the headlights look and when she does that she does she says something like it was unannounced she doesn't know what to say that nervous laugh comes out and then she goes to that high holy ground piece you said it you both talked about herself for grandizing and saying look i fought for this i did this i was trying to protect you poor bastards that's holy ground that's higher bill clinton when he said i didn't have sexual relations with that woman he said now i got work to do for the american people and turned him walked away there you go that's what we're seeing here i think this is carefully crafted and we're seeing cracks in it is what i think and we see all this behavior and she has facial expressions intended to send a message they don't always send the messages that she's trying to send the only thing i got a problem with that is i don't think her ego let her take instruction from anybody i don't think she'd sit there and have somebody say act like this do this do that i don't think i don't mean that i mean a carefully crafted crafted message on what she should say about the fda because i mean i know i've known some pretty bold ceo's who might check a few boxes even they are going to go hey when i get into buying this is regulatory what should i say okay i got you agree with that surely you can describe what they communicated to you about why they came for that inspection they told us that they were here because we're now fda regulated they wanted to learn more about our work and they wanted to understand our compliance with the quality system would that have been an unannounced visit to do just that it was unannounced i mean i'm not fda you know but i read what was written in the article uh we disagree with it we think it was false and we think it was misleading yeah i i know what we've done which is the decision to voluntarily work with the agency we interact with them all the time i'm we've chosen to take a path that is hard and i believe in it incredibly strongly because it's the right thing to do and i personally in arizona worked very hard to change the law to allow individuals the right to order lab tests directly and i can't do that without knowing that the tests that are offered are of the highest quality so we decided yeah this is hard and yeah this means we need to transition and yes it means there's going to be a pause period as we do this with all these tests and systems but what an amazing thing that people are going to be able to use technology that's been regulated in this way right and so we're going to do it okay i i have to ask you right you have you have two sort of pretty iconic technologists these are not just average patients yeah um and in john louis gasay's case yeah he actually blogged about his results he actually put them up there effectively waving all of his privacy sure um and he expressed concern about um the variations that he saw yeah uh and said that he got no response from the company um yeah i was just on that quickly he said he wrote me a letter right unfortunately i personally did not receive this letter i wish he'd called our call center which is what exists to be able to serve people in terms of explaining if we have different reference ranges or you know different um different ways we report our results we absolutely are going to follow up with him now that we're aware of this and um and we've we've done we've done over 3.5 million tests right so to take five of them out of context is just misleading all right chase what do you got this interviewer is obviously nervous asking these questions you can see fearful body language with this uh getting close to a confrontation and if she was not on message i think that she would have probably taken advantage of this by using his name and maybe leaning in like that would have shut him down at that point and he would not have asked any follow-up questions especially if she did a mattis knife hand go mattis she throws out this stop gesture and he gives in right away and eyebrows are raised she sits up in her chair with this uh artificial smile there's self self-reference again about inability inability and he didn't this guy didn't just write a letter uh i'm i'm positive they saw it online and they didn't reach out but she's visualizing this follow-up when she says oh now that we've learned about this here on stage and i've never seen this blog post in the history of the world now i'm going to follow up she's visualizing the stress of this follow-up you can see her her head goes down her eyes are downcast and she's maybe strategizing about it but uh when when she says out of context uh he said the same context in the beginning of the question the the patients were were the context the patients were outliers themselves in the field and not just these discrepancies the discrepancies were not the outlier the patients were the outlier and that's all i got uh on this one greg yes so she starts off lean back in the chair which is something we haven't seen with her yet then her eyes are a little more closed than normal and she has a closed mouth smile something's up here she's sensing this chance that something's going to go the wrong way and she actually shows what i think is her true colors we can see something boiling up and see human emotion coming up in her because she exposes her lower teeth very clearly exposes her lower teeth and this one the only time we've seen it and then she closed her mouth and she pulls the sides of her mouth down and that regulator goes up that hand out like hold on i got something to say that's a let me talk it's clearly as there is anything we've seen her use it twice now she sets up she sits up in the chair and her chin comes up in that defiant kind of move and then she goes and she starts down the process and she said if i wish he would have given me a call that's a clear line yes this expert is no better than any other customer that's what she's saying right here when she says i wish he would give me a call that's what the customer line is set up for she's just pushing him back then she starts talking about she uses some jargon again insulating herself and numbers and she starts spewing out of the volume of numbers they've done and she minimizes his expertise clearly by saying and he's only five data points in all of this data never mind he's one of the two people that he calls out for being the most respected i think i see not rage because there's no rage in this person showing but i see the facade cracking here and some of who she is coming out hold on this guy is just one of you he doesn't mean anything and he's only five data points is what i hear when i listen to this uh yeah so i see the same stuff she raises herself to full height she moderates uh this is kind of i think about as aggressive as she gets which is quite aggressive because um she frames this technology writer as what i would term a luddite so somebody who doesn't use technology and hates technology because she frames him as delivering a letter now i don't think any of us think he actually posted a letter but that's the way she kind of frames it is look here's somebody who's meant to know about technology they sent me a letter about this thing um and it just misleading and so that's a beautiful framing there very hard for this interviewer to come back on um it's a difficult interviewer to trump but i think she's managed managed to to do it um so again really quite skillful in in many ways i would like her on my side uh now and again just as you say scott the problem if we are dealing with um uh something psychopathic in nature here is and i believe it's in the in the in the hair test uh is is that parasitic nature is that they move from group to group to group they they can suck the the resource out of it can be very useful that's the important thing very useful for a society for a short space of time until that society realizes that they're actually gonna suck the resource out of out of them and not the enemy uh and so then they'll be dethroned and and cast out and then they'll move uh on to another group um anyway that's all i've got for you on that one there you go all right i i have to ask you right you have you have two sort of pretty iconic technologists these are not just average patients yeah um and in john louis gase's case yeah he actually blogged about his results he actually put them up there effectively waving all of his privacy sure um and he expressed concern about um the variations that he saw yeah uh and said that he got no response from the company um yeah i'm just on that quickly okay he said he wrote me a letter right unfortunately i personally did not receive this letter i wish he'd called our call center which is what is exists to be able to serve people in terms of explaining if we have different reference ranges or you know different um different ways we report our results we absolutely are going to follow up with him now that we're aware of this and um and we've we've done we've done over 3.5 million tests right so to take five of them out of context is just misleading all right well let's roll around the room one time and in 30 seconds or less let's see what we think is going on here and uh we'll go with mark chase greg and then i'll wrap it up mark yeah so i was lucky enough once to work with one of britain's most renowned confidence tricksters and lovely guy fantastic guy again you wouldn't want to be on the wrong side but he but he let me know how not to be on the wrong side he said mark you can only con a greedy man or woman he didn't use the word woman at the time uh but i think he was talking about everybody and he was saying the reason that it's called confidence trick is not because he's confident it's because he makes you confident that's the skill of the confidence trickster the confidence trickster will work out very very quickly what you are greedy for and they will deliver you that and you won't be able to see it because you you yearn for that thing so much other people around you will go that's too good to be true and what you'll do is go no not this time like this is the moment this is the time i think we've got a confidence trickster here and and and the reason is and the reason is because the the investors here as scott you were saying you know they're looking for their 20 x they're not there's so much more they want so much but they want an amazon they want they want something which is there are some investments that you can make which will blow your mind as to what you put in and what you can get at the end they want one of those and it's worth it's worth believing the lie just in case this is the time this is the moment you got one of those that's the beauty that so you know what i would say to everybody out there is check out what do you think you're greedy for when somebody walks up to you and starts offering you that check yourself you know check it out and if everybody around you is going that's too good to be true and you're going no no no no this is the one this is the time check yourself uh chase what do you got on this one that's like that reminds me of the time i bought a sham wow i felt i went all in yeah oh man came with free ones too let's let's talk about this here checklist really quick so there's two main factors on the list the list is separated into two factors we have these interpersonal and affective factors the second part is social deviants and some of those are like a need for constant stimulation what mark was just talking about this parasitic lifestyle but there's a lack of realistic long term goals there's impulsivity there's irresponsibility but for the for the final phase here which is called antisocial factors there's poor behavioral control there's early behavioral problems juvenile delinquency uh criminal versatility and a couple other ones that don't really fall into those which are promiscuous sexual activity and short term marital relationships repetitive short term relationships so i think that she doesn't necessarily fall into the second factor for two reasons one because uh we don't really see a lot of evidence for this in her present lifestyle number two we don't have access to a lot of her historical behavioral data so it would be harder for us to say that we can we can see uh visibly that a person like this of course not her would be would be diagnosed as a narcissist or would be considered to have a narcissistic behavioral traits and scott let's go to greg so i'll bring to the end i'll go i'll go all right um i agree with both of you guys on this so far mark she's a con that's one of them that's that's that's in my wheelhouse as well i love them can't get enough of them um because that's because that's all she's doing the goal here is an impossible goal to reach she should know that she this doesn't work it sounds like it's gonna work and then you're right mark that's how she gets the confidence with them because when we're talking about so look man she's got a thing where one drop of blood can tell you all this stuff makes sense to me i need to drop why would you need all that stuff the way things are going tech technology wise all those things so it makes it sounds like it would make sense to do that but the goal is unreachable she knows that goal is unreachable however she keeps going and going and going and going because she wants it all she wants as much as she can possibly get um psychopaths that they believe were part of the reason oh i'm not going to go down the 2008 uh stock market thing there's a book called snakes and suits read that book it's awesome um that would be 40 minutes on that but mark you nailed it on that and chase you did as well lots of lots of psychopaths are cons and and most of the time they are the hardcore long-term con a lot of times they'll be most of the time they are psychopaths to add that in there too as well um uh yeah that's where i saw because i again i could go on forever on this stuff and it'd be boring as hell but i think we're dealing with a con and i think she knows there the goal is unreachable but she's gathered as much as she can possibly gather and i think she's in so far she's just got to keep going and see what happens and see as long as she can keep from getting in trouble usually the con will go to another town or another country in this case she's got no way out she's paying herself into a corner that she cannot get out of and i agree with chase there's we don't see any uh situation that situation whether it's background sexually or drug abuse or um you know a lot of times if it's a guy they'll have kids all over the place uh and and be violent to their made as well we don't we're not seeing that however you do see psychopaths who will lead a normal life because they're upbringing all they see is normal behavior they see loving behavior and all that so they try to blend in and be in be that way and for some reason thank god they don't have that that thing that makes them want to hurt people hurt their family members and those types of things um there's some debates about that as you know but right now it's the thought is some of them don't do go down that way because of the way they're raised um greg what do you got yes i'm going entirely different direction yet she might be a psychopath remember all of that is putting things in a circle drawing a circle around a bunch of behaviors and calling it something a hare would tell you that we label that humans are complex messes of chemistry what makes us who we are some of us genes some of its behavior some of its exposure some of its trauma all of those kinds of things make us whoever we are i'm not even going to bother with that what you need to be able to do is to pay attention to the fact that even someone who is very good at being deceptive still shows signs this person has a very clear you called it a mascot because i know that's what we talk about with psychopaths let's just call it an act she this could be a a yeti suit whatever you want to call it because this is more than a mask this is a carefully crafted person who has made it past many people and here's the organism doing what the organism made the organism successful so i've talked to kissinger he believes me now suddenly i've got clout i talked to mattis he believes me now i've got more clout well they're going to keep doing what they did that worked until somebody discovers that it didn't and if a person is never put on notice this is the emperor's new clothes guys if you never ask a person whether they're lying if you never put them on the hot seat when they get on the hot seat they're still going to leak now she's so carefully crafted mark i think it's a stage act i think it's exactly somebody playing a character forever if you were to find one of the guys who played a character for 50 years you know some soap opera they're probably as part of that in that person and only when you break through all of that past the facade do you start to get to the person what we're seeing here is that we're seeing where she actually starts to show some signs that something has gotten to her where she stammers and stutters which we haven't seen much so what we want you to know what i want you to know is that it works on everyone you can't hide this part of who you are your your body is going to communicate things that you can't plan to do no matter how polished a psychopath you're and i'll leave it at that i want you to look for people regardless of what you want to call them or label them look for these deviations are you saying that your egos writing checks that your body can't cash yeah there you go it doesn't matter what you do doesn't matter what you do yeah all right just take the right pressure if you like what we're doing please subscribe right down there where mark is pointing to see a little youtube thing click that and there'll be a little bell that pops up and click that and i'll let you know and so you'll know when we have something new that comes out so please subscribe and we just got 400 000 subscribers this week so thank you very much everyone who's still subscribed and still watching to this late in the game for this video so there you have all right fellas this is a good one and we'll see you next time see you next week