 I'm Mark Schwab, the host of Think Tech Hawaii's Law Across the Sea program. Today we're going across the sea to meet with two lawyers in Latin America. Juan Carlos Fernandez is in Mexico City, Mexico, and Jose Manuel Abastos is in Lima, Peru. Juan Carlos is a partner in the law firm of Bastion, RINZ and Corea. His practice focuses on planning and consulting in the field of intellectual property. Jose is a partner in Hernandez and Sia law firm. His practice includes banking and finance and corporate law. Both are knowledgeable and very experienced international attorneys. I've asked them to share their views about their respective countries, Latin America and the world, and life and law. We in Hawaii are separated from Mexico and Peru by a large expanse of the Pacific Ocean, but we are all human. And I think we have a lot in common, even though we may not know it. So gentlemen, I would like to welcome you to our program. Juan Carlos, how are you? I'm good, I'm Mark. Thanks for the invitation. It's a pleasure to be here. Jose, how's everything? It's, everything is fine. Thank you very much for this invitation. Juan Carlos, great pleasure to be with you as well. Okay, so it's just great to have you both. And when I made the introduction, I talked about Latin America, and I'd like to get that covered first. And let's put up the map of Latin America. This is what I looked up and this is what they say is Latin America, but Juan Carlos, your view from Mexico and Jose from Peru, what is Latin America? Do you consider yourselves Latin Americans? How do you define that? I mean, is that a realistic view for your countries? So let's start with Juan Carlos and then we'll talk with Jose. That's a very interesting question, Mark. It's the first time I get asked that. I'd say in general, Latin America is defined by geography, of course, and by language. Most Latin American countries speak either Spanish predominantly or Portuguese. Mexico is in a particular situation because we're part of the North American continent, but I believe and I feel personally more identified with the rest of the Latin American countries than with the US and Canada. So I do believe that Mexico is definitely Latin American and I myself feel Latin American. And I like the identity that you mentioned. So Jose, what is your viewpoint? Yes, it's exactly the same as Juan Carlos. We Peruvians, we feel absolutely 100% Latin Americans. We share the same, not only the same continent, but mostly the same language with the exception of Portuguese, the same history and many other aspects. So we feel like a large community and it's an advantage when we travel from Peru to Mexico, for example, that we can use the same language and we have many aspects in common. For example, the archeological matters, history matters, social and cultural matters. And also you can enjoy the differences among all these countries like the food, for example. Yeah, so this identity, I like that. I like to understand that. That gives us a better view of what you think of yourselves and how you feel about your countries. And there is a separation between United States, Canada and Latin America. And it's good to understand that and thank you for that insight. Now, I wanna ask you a little bit about your own law practice and if you have a client from a foreign country, say United States or Canada and they are thinking about doing business in your country, what do you tell them? What do you tell them about doing business? Because I hear what you're saying, the cultures are different. And so how would you introduce them to your country? And Jose, we'll start with you this time. Well, Peru has a very friendly legal framework for international investors that want to do business in Peru for the first time. So it has one of the most friendly legal frameworks in Latin America, which is an advantage. And also the macroeconomy of Peru has been very stable in the past, for almost 30 years, along with Chile. So, those are the positive aspects of doing business in Peru and the difficult aspects are that depending on the type of business, the regulations could be really cumbersome and the times spent in the paper for licenses and permits, for example, could take much longer times than originally expected, for example. Okay, so Juan Carlos. I focus on intellectual property law. I'd say that probably 80% of our clients are from abroad, many of them from the United States. Mexico is an attractive market because we're 130 million people. Geographically, we have the advantage of being very close to the United States. So we are both a consumer and a manufacturer that is very close to the most powerful economy in the world. So that is always attractive. Whenever a client has interest in doing business in Mexico, we advise them to take into account what areas they want to develop that's a key element to determine if they will want to settle in Mexico, in which part of Mexico. That our legal framework is quite stable and it's quite friendly also for foreign investments. Of course, politics sometimes gets involved in economic policy. Right now, we have a federal government that claims to be more on the socialist side and this has been a bit of a challenge for foreign companies, but it hasn't hindered at all the development of new business. So I think that times are good despite of the general economic situation with high inflation, et cetera, but Mexico is still a very attractive market to invest in. Well, what you've said in both of your responses to what I've asked you is interesting. In other words, there's cultural differences, but both countries are welcoming investment, welcoming business and are open to that. Now, I would say that in the United States, you know, we would have to be educated, we'd have to know that and it's good to hear that because I think there might, because of the cultural differences that some people feel, there might be some reluctance, but I'm hearing open door and I'm hearing friendly from both of you. Is that a correct type of conclusion? Well, absolutely. Just to give you an example, Mexico is one of the few countries outside of the US where NFL see some games are held. We like our culture, we like our roots, but we also like football. And that's an example of how open we are to whatever good things come from abroad. Okay, that's interesting to hear. Yeah, okay, now let's talk about current events a little bit. How have Mexico and Peru dealt with COVID pandemic? And what is the status now? Juan Carlos, we can start with you and you know, we've heard different things here in the United States. So clear it up, please. Yeah, but my personal opinion and this is an opinion shared by most of the private sector in Mexico is that the federal government did a poor job handling the pandemic. Of course, Mexico is a country with a lot of challenges. Our public health system has a lot to improve, but the pandemic caught us off guard like it did with the rest of the world. But unfortunately, the federal government in terms of strictly speaking on the health side was erratic in their policies. They didn't foster, for example, the use of masks. They didn't buy enough tests when they had the opportunity to do so. And on the economic side, which was also a challenge when the lockdown came up, is that they didn't provide any support or incentives for small or medium companies. So in sum, I think that most of the measures to prevent a larger economic and health impact were implemented by the private sector. It was a private sector who said, you know, mask up and go and take a test and isolate if you're positive. And we tried in the however way we could to provide support to our people and employees to try to have an economic impact that was not as bad as it could have been. But in general, I would say that the government didn't respond well. And right now the situation in terms of cases is stable. Right now, we're okay. But we do feel that with winter coming, cases may rise again. And we kind of will be on our own to make the decisions. Jose. Yes, Mark, the Peruvian situation is quite similar to the Mexican situation of Juan Carlos just explained. In few words, Peru lost 200,000 deaths in less than two years. So that it never happened something like this in Peru. According to international analysis that I recently, Peru is the number one or two country in the world with the highest death rate of deaths per habit and because of COVID. There was a very poor response by the government collection to the pandemic. It was wrong and it was late. The vaccines came late. People who could travel to United States to get shot. It was the people who remain here really suffered a lot. Also the economy was severely impacted in that year in 2020 in particular. The Peruvian GDP decreased by 12%. Next year, if we cover the decrease but it was very sad to see that the government did not have any appropriate measure to alleviate this situation. So we also think that the private sector has an important role to cover here. I am a full defender of a PPP's program, private public partnerships. Governments as Peruvians are, they will be poor managers or everything that you can imagine. So the hospitals are run by the government are really in very bad shape poor infrastructure, work services. So we believe that the good thing of this is that there is an opportunity to improve not only the public health sector but other public sectors or let's call social infrastructure including education through private investments, through PPP's that's the opportunity that we have here. That's interesting that both of you share basically it sounds like the same position and there is some concern about what the future holds but both of you seem to think that private industry or businesses are more effective and more helpful than the government which, yeah, it's interesting to hear that point of view. Is that a correct, am I correct in that? We're both in? Yeah. Absolutely, yes. I mean, I hope things get better for Latin America in general and there is concern about travel also. Now, talking about travel, there is one Carlos I wanna focus on an issue. There's been much publicity in the United States about migrant caravans entering the United States from Mexico, including a former president who vowed to build a wall and make Mexico pay for it. How do Mexicans see this issue? What do they think it is about and how should it be handled? Mark, as you know, immigration is a complex subject. Mexico loses a lot of talent from immigration but also gains billions of dollars in the remittances that immigrants send back to their families here. The wall was seen with skepticism because you don't have to be an expert in US geography to know that building a wall along that border is simply impossible. Of course, there was some hurt feelings because some of the things the former president said about Mexicans were a bit harsh. Mexicans who go to the US risk a lot. They work very hard. They don't have any insurance. They get paid less than the minimum wage and they work for hours and hours. I know that illegal immigration is something that is not ideal. I understand those sectors in the US who ask for strict controls at borders because you don't want to have an exaggerated number of people flowing into the country. There's the issue also of terrorism. There's the issue of human trafficking that goes along with illegal immigration. But I think that Mexico has tried to do its part. Actually, illegal immigration from Mexico into the US has decreased through their years. It is immigration from Central America that goes through Mexico, which has been increasing. And because of the pressure of the US government, the Mexican government send the army into our southern border to try to contain these caravans. So it is a very complex subject. There's a lot of politics involved. There's a lot of money involved. Mexico and Latin American countries should provide opportunities for their nationals to have economic and social stability. And immigration should be a matter of choice. And the US should, I think, value all of the positive things immigrants bring into their economy and into their culture. It's a win-win situation as long as there is control. So what I hear you saying also is that there's not just one opinion. It's kind of a mixed opinion. Different issues come up, and different values are seen on the side of Mexico about the whole immigration and issue. Is that accurate? Okay. Now let me ask a question that kind of ties Hawaii, Mexico and Peru together. And that is, we have an indigenous population. In Hawaii, there was a native population and the country was taken away with the help of the United States. Spain colonized Mexico and Peru. What is the status of indigenous people? The Aztecs and Mayans and Mexico and the Incas in Peru? Jose, first. Yes, Mark, Peru has many local native communities with their own languages. Apart from Spanish, the most important language in Peru is Quechua, which is a very old language. It's spoken of, it is believed by the Incas. It has many centuries, but also you have many local dialects. You have dialects in the jungle, which are those, some of them do not have a writing system. It's only oral, it's quite interesting. So Peru, the Peruvian government protects them, protects those culture. Of course, many of these cultures are in risk. They live in areas in the jungle, for example, that are threatened by illegal deforestation. So it is not an easy job to protect them, but we have, and it's part of our heritage, national heritage, these cultures. Peru, it's a mix of all these cultures and languages. Predominantly, the most important language is Spanish, of course. Yes, okay. So Juan Carlos, what is Mexico? Mexico has over 68 indigenous groups. Wow. We're also a mixture, resulting of Spanish colonization. Unfortunately, most of these indigenous peoples have lived in poverty for centuries. Right now, I think we're living a time of revindication in which their traditions and their beliefs are starting to gain importance. They are starting to be recognized and respected, but I think that we still have to work a lot on the economic aspect. Of course, their aspirations are different to the normal aspirations of, I would say, capitalism. But one thing is that, and another thing is a poverty in which they have been living for centuries. And I think that there's a lot of work that has to be done. We have, of course, many remains of these magnificent cultures, but these original indigenous groups need to have a better situation. You know, so I'm hearing that the indigenous people in both countries are being recognized and there is some interest in assisting what has happened and helping them. Is that accurate, the statement? Is that accurate conclusion? In the case of Mexico, yes. And Peru, yes? Yes, the same, the same one. And then what is the relationship with Spain? I mean, Spain was the colonial power that took over the countries from the indigenous people. What is the present relationship with Spain, Juan Carlos? The current federal government has requested that Spain requests pardon or the colonization. We were way behind that for forgiveness. Relations are good, there is good commerce, there's good tourism, but this distractor is being used by the federal forget of their current mistakes. Okay, Jose? It is a very good relationship and it has been distorted in the past decades. Of course, Peru, as well as Mexico and most of Latin America is a mixture of cultures at the beginning, in a century 16 between the Spanish culture and the Peruvian, Mexican, Ecuadorian, Colombia cultures. And so we are a result of this, what we call the Spanish investisac, which is a combination of different races and cultures. So today we have a very good relationship with our business. Spain is one of the most important countries that invest in Peru. I mean, Spanish companies are one of the top non-Peruvian investors. They have to give you an example of the most important telecom company in Peru among other businesses in oil and gas, et cetera. We share the same language, of course. And there has been very little critiques from Peruvians regarding the responsibility that they had with the conquest of Peru, which of course caused lots of damage and lives 600 years ago. But that is something that almost of this in Peru is not discussed with some key receptions. Okay, I wanna move on to an issue one Carlos mentioned, and that is tourism. And tourism in Hawaii, Mexico, and Peru, I understand in your countries is lucrative or has been in the past, but we've had some reservations in Hawaii about the damage caused through the natural and cultural environment because of tourism. And I wanna put up a poster of Mexico, beautiful poster of really inviting people to come. What is each of your country's view of tourism at present? And Juan Carlos, we'll start with you. Tourism is one of the most important activities for the economy in Mexico. We have, of course, a lot of potential. We have amazing beaches. We have archeological sites, colonial cities. Mexico City is one of the most interesting cities to visit at the moment. So it's really one of the most important aspects of our economy. And it's something that we try to take care of. Of course, the pandemic seriously affected tourism, but at the time it is starting to grow again. So it is something that we try to foster. We try to have people visiting our country. Of course, like you said, this has impacts in the environment and it's something that we should be careful with. Okay, and Jose, I'd like you to answer the question, but also talk about Machu Picchu, which by the way, by the way, Hiram Bingham who was born in Hawaii is given credit for discovering along with the help of indigenous farmers in 1911. But so yeah, what is your response? And let's put a photo of Machu Picchu, when you... Sure, let me start for your last questions about Machu Picchu. And let's imagine for a moment that the risk that you see right now have been covered by trees so that it was impossible if you use a drone or a helicopter flying over this area, you couldn't see anything. So the merit of Hiram Bingham, I didn't know that he was Hawaii, but that was great to know that is that he discovered, he talked to local people living around and he heard their conversations about ancient winds in top of this mountain. So he hired these local people with mules and to call this way up, which is not very easy. And then he found this, imagine yourself, these huge walls. Covered completely by dense vegetation because it is a tropical area. So it rains a lot during the half of the year. And he decided to start cutting this vegetation and to uncover all these streams. So that is why Hiram Bingham is a person very important for Peru and now for the world, as well as in Mexico. And let me tell you that if you take all that in America as a whole, the two countries that are very similar in many aspects are Mexico and Peru. And archeological aspect is one of them. So tourism is very important in Peru as well. Most people visit Peru just for Machu Picchu and Cusco, which he was a capital of the Inca Empire. Cusco is important because many of its Inca buildings remained what the Spanish did when they conquered Peru is they didn't destroy completely the buildings. What they did is they kept part of the walls and on top of these Inca walls, they build typical Spanish colonial buildings. So the most dramatic example is the Inca temple of Cori Cacha, which was covered by gold, was huge stones covered by landslides of gold. What the Spanish did is they kept the bases, but on top of these Inca bases, they built a typical Spanish church that you can visit next time that you go to Peru. So for us it's very important what is happening with Machu Picchu, the United Nations declared that Machu Picchu is a very important international monument, not only Peruvian, and it has to be, the Peruvian government has to preserve it. The Peruvian government cannot do anything they want with Machu Picchu. So they have to follow certain protocol because the site was receiving too many people and it was creeping some problems. So it sounds like really Hawaii, Mexico and Peru, we have a lot of things in common. Now we only have a couple of minutes left, gentlemen. I want to ask you kind of a personal and deep question in a way. The world is facing many problems and difficult times, the pandemic, which we've talked about, climate change, wars. Is there anything in your home culture or your life experience that gives you hope for the future? Juan Carlos, we'll start with you. Well, that is a great question Mark. From my IP attorney point of view, I would say ingenuity is going to be a key aspect in our future. We're facing all these challenges, but we seem to be able to respond with ingenuity to all of these challenges. We've managed to pollute the oceans with plastic and we have these creative people trying to come up with solutions for this. The same happens with climate change. The same happens with all of these challenges we have. So I think mankind has managed to pollute and really complicate the planet. We can fix it. And from my Mexican perspective, I think a lot has to do with our philosophy and our view of life. Mexicans are hardworking and happy people. We have a lot of challenges. Like I said, we've had a hard time with the pandemic. We have a lot of challenges, but I think that there's always a way to see the positive side. And this is something that I think should be replicated in the world. We should be more conscious about the impact we're having on our planet. But I think that there's hope. Okay, well, thank you. Jose. Yes, Mark. Yes, of course, we, there's hope in Peru as well. Peru right now is going through a very difficult situation. We have a government that in my point of view is not helping the Rubians to have a better education, to have more jobs and to improve their family situation and improve the economy. So however, Peru is still in a good macroeconomic situation and it is because Peruvians rescue this country at the beginning of the 90s when Peru was passing through a long period of a dark night, 10 years of terrorism and a huge economic crisis that created an inflation of 7,000% in just one year, 7,000%. So this horrible situation, which was, you had two monsters, terrorism killing more than 100,000 people in Peru only and then this very poor, the condition of the situation of the economy was fixed by Peruvians. We did it. And in a few years, Peru started to recover and today, the Peruvian economy is one of the best ones of macroeconomies in Latin America. And it became one of the most important places for foreign investment in Latin America. So we think, and as Juan Carlos said about Mexico, that we Peruvians can do it. We can make our country great again for our first thing, a famous former Peruvian US president and we can make it. We did it and we can make it again. It's not going to be maybe myself or I'm going to be my children and in the future, migrant children. But there is hope. Well, thank you both for that. And what I hear from both of you saying is that people have caused the problem but people can solve it, although it may not be easy and it may take time. But you both have hope in people and I think it's because you're international lawyers. I think that helps too. Gentlemen, I want to thank you both Juan Carlos. Jose, thank you very much for being my guests. It's great to get your insights and your views from your countries. So Aloha as we say in Hawaii. Aloha. Thank you, Mark. Thank you, Jose. Thank you. Thank you, Juan Carlos. Thank you, Mark. Bye, Aloha.