 Hello, hello, hello. I'm Meryl Khalili. We are DM25, a radical political movement for Europe, and today we're looking at the situation in the Middle East and the information war that's running in parallel with it. My guest is Lucas Fabraro, who's also my colleague at DM25. He's our communications director, and he's been on the front lines of this information war, and hopefully we're going to be exploring this issue to understand a lot more about what are the dynamics out there, what could be different this time compared to other times that Israel-Palestine has exploded in the past, and let's take it to it. Lucas. Hey, Meryl. Thanks. Tell me something. I mean, why don't we kick it off like this? Why do you think it's important what's happening online for people that are watching who are like, well, who cares what's said on Twitter or Facebook? There are people dying out there. Why is it critical to the outcome of this conflict? What's important about it? I think it's saying that what happens on social media doesn't matter. It's on the same level as saying that what happens on TV or on newspapers don't matter. So if you put it that way, it doesn't take very long to see the insanity of what it means to say that what happens on social media doesn't matter. So many people, billions of people, obviously, are active on social media. Everybody knows that. I think what some people often don't realize is that for a lot of people, that's pretty much their only contact with politics, with political information. They don't read newspapers. They don't consume mainstream media really very much in general. Obviously, they don't trust politicians. They don't particularly care what they say or don't say. And also, on a personal capacity, I think very often they just don't talk about politics, even in person with family or friends, all that awesome. So really, social media is the only way in, especially for younger people. So I think it's a grave, terrible mistake that a few people make these days with some silly due to disregard social media or a particular social media vehicle, because sometimes DNA modesty is not towards social media in general, but it's towards the latest social media thing. Twitter is fine. It's respectable. It's academic, but TikTok is for kids. It's for little dances and trends. It's not for serious political conversations. People say the same about Twitter. When Twitter came along, it seemed like a ridiculous idea to reduce this course to that length of a character. I think it was 140 at first. I'm looking at a stat here, which says that about 25% of US adults under 30 now regularly get their news from TikTok, from Pew Research. If you've listened to this for the first time and you're not active on TikTok, that might sound terrifying to you because of the idea that people have about TikTok in their minds, but it really isn't. I spend a lot of time on TikTok. I've seen content, journalistic content made by amateurs, basically. They're also by profession journalists, but by and large by amateurs that are sometimes teenagers and they're much more well informed than, dare I say, making stream journalists themselves, especially in issues such as Israel-Palestine. I think in general, I don't have the same concerns that most people might have about this, but not only that, I welcome it because think about Israel-Palestine, for example, and I live in Germany. I have a very heightened perception of what's going on. Everybody does, but in Germany in particular, I think it's really scary what the general climate is when mainstream politics and mainstream media. Where would we be in Germany right now if it wasn't for social media? I have no idea. The mainstream media that lies through their teeth and basically just copies and paste Israel press releases as news without verifying anything, if they had a stranglehold on what information makes it to people, basically, which would be the case without social media. I welcome it. Of course, they are concerned about social media. We're not going to get into them, of the multi-policy control that is these corporations have. However, I think without social media right now would be in a much, much worse place. That's without even starting to talk about how it empowers people on the ground in Gaza themselves to send those images that we consume on a daily basis right now that's 99% of them CNN would never in a million years run them. What's been happening in the last couple of years has been eight weeks now, something like eight weeks since this has been going on now, the bombardment of Gaza. There's been a lot of protests every weekend and during the week across the world. I was listening to an interview with the Palestinian ambassador to the UK last night and what he was arguing was that if it hadn't been for so many people coming out of the streets, Israel would have wiped Gaza off the map by now. I wanted to get a sense from you about what role you think social media plays in actually mobilizing people and getting them out onto the streets for this cause. I think that the last thing that I said before you asked that question is the key to understanding this year, the images coming from Gaza, from the people being massacred right now, not the news channels that are covering it from inside Gaza. I mean, what that Western journalist is still even inside of Gaza, from Tel Aviv, but imagine that, what sort of, how their reporting is colored in a situation like this. I think I will leave the deep analysis for people smarter than me on these matters, but in my view, this has been really, maybe the key, the images that you see on social media, they are appalling. They're enraging. There's really no other term that you can use. And when people are enraged, that's the most powerful emotion I think that can drive you to the streets to protest, to actually mobilize even people who have never done that before in their lives. And I'm convinced that dozens, if not hundreds of thousands of people, have participated in protests for the first time in their lives in places like Europe, thanks to this crisis. And I think by and large, they have been mobilized by what they saw in consumer social media. I mean, as a counterpoint to that, look at the war in Ukraine, which started in February 2022, and was also a kind of modern war of the social media age, let's say. And there we also saw a lot of very, very brutal images on both sides. And yet the reaction here seems to be different. In the last eight weeks, the atmosphere is much more electric, much more nimble, much more responsive. And these images, as you've said, these awful images to see are kind of getting into people's minds and hearts a lot more than perhaps the ones that have been emerging from Ukraine since February 2022. I mean, tell me, what's your read on that? I think there are a few key differences, right? The first one is just to get that out of the way is just the geopolitical difference. In the case of Ukraine and Russia, Russia launched an illegal war, no matter what you think about our shared responsibility in the lead up to it, of which we have plenty as Western countries. But the invasion itself was a criminal act, of course. You're not supposed to do that in an international law. And they committed countless war crimes since they launched the invasion. But at the end of the day, it's still a conflict between two countries. It's a conventional war, so to speak, in that sense. And that's all we have in Gaza, of course. Gaza is not a state, it's an occupied territory. And so the level of the asymmetry of it, I think, has no comparison to the Ukraine Russia case. I think the other key difference is I don't think it's so much, of course, the how horrifying the images themselves are, I think play a part. Naturally, we've seen horrific images coming out of Ukraine as well, just massacres and civilians being targeted and all that. I think still the level of dehumanization that the Israeli government has for Palestinians and as a result, the acts that they are willing to perpetuate in Palestinians are almost unmatched in any other place in the world. So there's that, again, the asymmetry of it as well. But also I think a key difference is no one was cheering on Vladimir Putin in the West when Russia invaded Ukraine. We didn't arm Russia to do the invasion. We didn't continue to arm Russia after the invasion happened. Politicians were pretty much without exception in the West condemning the Russian invasion, expressing almost unlimited solidarity with Ukraine, arming Ukraine in order to resist this invasion and fight back. And the mainstream media was doing the same thing. I mean, in a lot of countries in the West, you can be walking down the street and you'll see Ukrainian flags hanging from government buildings. Do you see a Palestinian flag anywhere when you walk around London like from a public institution or Germany, not because of Germany or anything like that? So that's also the key difference and we must not forget our governments and our mainstream media are cheering this on. They're cheering on this massacre and this genocide. So I think that combined with the images that you see from said genocide, that just doubles the rage that people feel and compels them a lot more to go to the streets and to mobilize because there is actually something that is happening that must be stopped, which is the support from politicians and from our media to the Israeli government, which is not the case in Russia, obviously. Well, would you say that this is really a split between the people and the elites in the West when it comes to opinion on this war? Yes, absolutely. Take Germany, for example. Germany looking at it from the outside and even from the inside, for I think most people, it seems that the vast majority of the population has this unwavering commitment to the Israeli government and whatever it does. If you look at polls, that's absolutely not the case. So what's going on? Well, what's going on is that the people in power are in unison, just rabbit supporters of the Israeli government and all of its criminal policies. And so they create this political climate in which it becomes taboo. If you thought these people might be the majority or at the very least certainly the other people, the people who support Israel and critically are not the majority, it makes them afraid to speak out. It's really as simple as that. So it's this climate of making a certain position taboo and silencing people that way. So in that sense, there's a very clear split, of course, between the people in power, the politicians and the mainstream institutions, and the people at large. I'd like to dig into the information war part of it a little bit more. A couple of weeks ago, we had a live stream and I asked you a question about whether you thought Israel was losing the information war. And you said yes. And I'd like to explore a little bit now about why you think that's the case and what may be different this time compared to other times when the Israel-Palestine has exploded as it has sadly happened so often. I mean, let me just set it up. I always thought Israel was a master of information warfare. I can remember in 20, I think it was 2009, there was this tool that was, I hope I'm not misremembering it, but a tool called, I think it was called megaphone. And you would sign up to it. And this was put out by the Israeli government or a group that was close to the Israeli government with their sanction. You signed up to it. And whenever there was anything anywhere that was negative about Israel, any blog posts or new media article, something like that, you would get a little alert in your tray and a message that you could copy and paste so that you could go to that website, the blog that had the offensive, the finger against Israel or the combat against Israel and write your own comment. So I mean, this was before like bot armies and all of that, but I just, I looked at them. I thought, wow, that is the next level stuff. Really. I mean, they really raised the bar for what smart information warfare can be. If you can, if you can look at it like that, I mean, tactically, it made a lot of sense, well, ethically, perhaps not. So I want to understand what you think has gone wrong this time and how perhaps the Israeli state and its supporters have been caught unawares. And what are the dynamics that are creating essentially an enormous amount of pushback for Israel that you think is causing them to lose this information war? What's different? Well, I think the key difference, the wills have come off on the propaganda. It's gotten bad, like real bad, comically comedy sketch level bad. I think that's the key difference here. So the question then is, how have we gotten here, right? This country that you mentioned that used to be so good at propaganda that you had to come up with a term just for the particular type of brand of propaganda, a country that had a PR operation that was so good, so state of the arts that the state itself, in large part, owes its existence to the competency of this beautiful PR propaganda that was done from the 1920s and 1930s. So what happened? I don't know. However, I was reading something recently, I think I just don't do it, I can't remember who wrote it, but sort of analyzing it and their argument was that basically they got lazy, much like the IDF on a military level got complacent and so got caught unawares by this Hamas attack and took a very long time to sort of even get them out of the territory and get them back to Gaza. Much like that happened in military terms, I think in propaganda terms, it was the same thing. They got complacent and so this devious sort of misinformation that Israel is so well known for having mastered has become this sort of cartoonish, very teach type of propaganda. To see that an army spokesperson point to a calendar with the names of the week in Arabic and saying that there are names of territories. I mean, I have, I've tried to visualize what chain of events led to this happening, like what was said before they hit record for them to just think that that would be okay and you just can't. And I think, look, Israeli propaganda is directed towards the West, 99% of it. So I think that the fact that they've gotten so lazy is an indictment on us because if this is meant for the West to consume and it's so blatant how fabricated it is, that means that the Israeli government thinks we're all a bunch of idiots and you would think that mainstream politicians and media would take offense with that at some point. The problem is a lot of these mainstream politicians and mainstream journalists, well, they're idiots to put it, to put it clearly. So they don't take offense, they continue to copy and paste it as if it was just standard news that was verified in proper journalism. So I think we should understand that as well, that it's an indictment on our leaders, on the people in power in the West that Israeli propaganda has gotten so cartoonishly bad. And I think it's also a sign of the political climate inside of Israel and how so far right it was always much more to the right than your regular country. But right now, it's just so far to the right that there's no other real brand of propaganda that would even fit. So that's kind of like it's the only thing that you could hope to have coming out of a government that has people in power like Israel has. Well, that was what I was going to say, because the fact that it's a far right government now, the most far right government in Israel's history, the whole thing becomes more like an ideological crusade for them rather than a political and a strategic question. So maybe that's why they've kind of taken their foot off the gas. They believe that they're so firmly in the right that they don't really need to try. And perhaps that's why the propaganda competence is falling behind. But I'd like to put a bit of flesh on this. Can you give me some examples? You mentioned now this calendar. I mean, tell us about the Al-Shifa Hospital case and why that backfired on Israel. Well, I think it's hard to say for sure. But I think that even Western media has its limits sometimes. You saw that, for example, when the Jabalia refugee camp was bombed for the first time, I think it's bombed multiple times since then. But for the first time when it killed hundreds of civilians, there was this now infamous clip of an Israeli spokesperson going on a CNN and talking to Wolf Blitzer. Wolf Blitzer, you know, a seasoned supporter of Israel. And even he was shocked at the sort of how at the nonchalant tone of the spokesperson just basically saying, like, yeah, that's a tragedy of war. You know, that was the Hamas commander. So we were just a moment away, a period. And he was just giving him every opportunity to just walk back from the statement and saying something that would cover the backs a little bit better. And he just wouldn't take it. So I think even Western media sometimes, fortunately, has its limits. Not all Western media don't, unfortunately, because this case that you mentioned with the Al-Shifa Hospital, yes, the BBC question Israeli claims, as in many Western news outlets. However, the biggest newspaper in Germany said simply copied and pasted the Israeli press release that they found Hamas Command Center underneath the hospital. So it doesn't, it doesn't happen everywhere. You know, I think we notice when it backfires, just because, you know, it's always good to see that this sort of wall Israeli propaganda that's reproduced by Western media can be breached sometimes. But let us not forget that there are still plenty of very, very high profile news outlets out there that are still just taking every single bait. What do you think of the data points that might suggest that Israel is losing the information war? I mean, you mentioned a couple of specific instances and people like Wolf Blitzer, who I believe was involved with APAC. I mean, this is no regular CNN anchor, even him explaining, you know, we're exclaiming horror when faced with a rather amateurish idea of spokesperson about what Israel had done. So why do you get that sense? Maybe we can also shift to looking at at TikTok as well, where I believe there are a lot more people that are pushing the Palestinian position than the Israel one. I think one of the main data points that people took notice of, and I can't remember the exact numbers now, but it was looking at hashtags on TikTok and their popularity. So pro-Palestine hashtags such as free Palestine compared to pro-Israel hashtags, I think stand with us being the main one if I'm not mistaken. So they look at the popularity of them and where they ranked. And I think the pro-Palestine ones were something like 80% more popular than the Israeli ones, essentially the pro-Israel ones. And I think that just basically proves what Korsriglans at the platform like TikTok. Of course, you have to be aware that if you were, for example, pro-Palestine, you consume a lot of pro-Palestine content like I do, then you put into this bubble where the algorithm only feeds you similar content. But again, we have hard data that says that actually this is taking place. We also have information that the Israeli government is panicking about this. And institutions that do Israel, the Israeli government's bidding like the Anti-Defamation League in the US. Is that their name? The Anti-Defamation League? Yeah, ADL. Yes. They're panicking about it. There was a leak from an internal meeting that I saw the other day on Twitter of their president or whatever, just basically losing his mind over how bad they were losing the information while on TikTok saying that they have a very, very big problem with younger people. So they're panicking about it. The Israeli lobby is talking directly to TikTok. There was this very amusing headline, I think from Vice recently, where essentially when TikTok CEO says, we're not doing anything, young people just don't like you, to the Israeli government. And you can see that. I don't have to mention something that has also related to TikTok, but not to go on a slide tangent here, but just because I think I know that you're going to love this. In a lot of the contents that I started noticing that in the content that I posted about Israel Palestine, the pro-Palestine content, of course, a lot of people will comment on the content of the video, but a lot of people would just comment to boost the post and to get the engagement up so that the algorithm feeds it to other people. And then I started noticing recently that I would post a video and then I would start seeing comments like, oh, lovely hotel, thanks for the tip. Oh, that's a great hair routine. I can't find this product, though. Would this be a good replacement? And I was like, what the hell is going on? And then it turns out that people, because TikTok itself, as you can imagine, they don't necessarily want to push for Palestine content either, especially as they're facing the threat of being banned in the U.S. And some people are getting shadow banned or just outright banned for posting pro-Palestine content. So TikTok is not covering itself in glory. It's the people using TikTok that we should be praising. And so to try to dodge that, people started posting comments on pro-Palestine videos as if they were commenting on a travel blog video. And to try to avoid any keywords that TikTok might have flagged in order to shadow ban videos, not only words that were said in the video itself, but also in the comments. Because if you see a lot of free Palestine in the comments, maybe the video is going to be dark because of that. So people are just commenting random travel blog stuff to help push the video with the algorithms. So on one hand, TikTok is facing accusations that it's promoting pro-Palestine content. And the head of the ADL is freaking out about what people see as an imbalance. And on the other, they're shadow banning people who post pro-Palestine content. How does that work? Well, the TikTok is not... I don't think even the Israeli government or the ADL or any of these people, they seriously think that TikTok has an agenda here to actively push pro-Palestine content. They say it because they know that that's going to play in the media. And it's going to help put pressure on TikTok to do exactly what TikTok does often, which is to actually censor pro-Palestine content. I've had videos that were taken down in my personal account, although in those cases, they were reported by people, trolls, essentially. They are trying to silence these videos that went viral. And then I appeal and TikTok restored them. But I've heard countless people say that they either had their accounts banned or shadow ban. You post a video about Palestine and it gets exactly zero views, which is almost impossible on a platform like TikTok, unless the algorithm is actively trying to silence you, essentially. Okay. I want to ask about anti-Semitism and the accusation of anti-Semitism as a cover for political disagreement. I mean, we live in a strange time, especially in the last five or six years, very strong social justice movement. And we've seen accusations of bigotry used to shut down debate in all kinds of areas. It doesn't mean there isn't real bigotry out there. And I'm certainly not trying to minimize the very real consequences of anti-Semitism. And yet, the sense I'm getting is that, I mean, when I go on my timeline, for example, it doesn't take long for disagreement to spiral into, well, you'll just be anti-Semitic by claiming that Israel was doing this, et cetera. And then that's the end of the discussion. It's shut down. My sense is, though, that this accusation, when used as a political weapon, is losing its teeth. Tell me what your sense is on that. Obviously, these accusations of this blanket accusations of anti-Semitism when you criticize the state of Israel and its government have been weaponized for a very long time. As a matter of fact, it was part of this brilliant PR operation that we were talking about that has been at the core of Israel policy since its inception, essentially, and before that with the Zionist movement. I think it's, well, just the scale and the nonchalant way in which Israel deals with its crimes and the evidence, the hard evidence that we have of those crimes have been part of this decoupling of the anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism in people's minds, because I think people who even used to equate these things are now not that pro-Israel anymore, because they're seeing the evidence that this is a government that is criminal, that it oppresses and massacres people. But I think also just the levels of sheer absurdity that the people who weaponized this term have taken into, like for instance, the case this year in Berlin of Jewish people being arrested for taking place in pro-Palestine protests, the case of disorganization, the Jewish voice for just peace in the Middle East, that they hosted this event at a cultural center here in Berlin called Oyun. I was there. It was a beautiful event. We talked about peace. We saw Jewish people stand side by side with Muslim-era Palestinian people talking about true lasting peace, refusing to live in hatred and in the suspicion of one another. It was beautiful. It was in other words exactly what we need in times like these. What is the rewards and that disorganization and the cultural center that hosted it gets from the city's government? They want to close the cultural center basically by cutting the public funding that they're committed to providing until the end of 2025, by the way. They just cut it. So you see who can see the absurdity of a case such as this. The city government is trying to tell a Jewish organization that they're not allowed to host an event for their anniversary. And if they do, they're going to shut down the cultural center that hosted them. The case of Edith Effetts as well, which is a member of Jewish Voice, who was one of these people who were arrested at protests. In one case, it was a lone protest in which you just held a presciency as an Israeli Jew, stopped the genocide in Gaza. So when you start seeing cases like these, then you really like they're doing your work for you basically and then trying to expose the absurdity of weaponizing this term, which is a travesty and a disservice to Jewish people first and foremost. Because anti-Semitism, of course, is real, is a real thing, is a real problem. It's especially pervasive in the far right in Europe. The same far right that is now praised for taking part in pro-Israel marches, such as Martin Le Pen, after spending decades spreading just despicable anti-Semitism. But that's how it goes in Europe these days. If you just pledge your allegiance to the state of Israel and its government and its policies, then all is forgiven. Something else I wanted to ask you is to take a little path here a little bit is about Twitter. Elon Musk bought Twitter. God, I can't even remember that. It was like a year and a half ago or two years ago, October 2020, I think. October 2020, three. 2022. Yeah, sorry, so one year ago. Before Musk bought Twitter, the U.S. intelligence and security agencies, the U.S. political establishment, were very close to Twitter. A lot of evidence has come out since then, which has convinced me that they were able to get content either outright censored or shadow banned or laid down in order to manipulate and put their thumb on the scale a little bit of public discourse, which had a very profound effect on issues. Back then, it was issues around COVID and vaccines, and then later the war in Ukraine, etc. So do you think that there's a case to be made that since Musk bought Twitter, Musk himself proclaimed free speech absolutist for all his faults, and we have many disagreements with Musk. Do you think that there's a case to be made that a lot of this, the kinds of images we've been seeing, a lot of the kind of debate that we've been commenting on in this call now, wouldn't have come out under the old Twitter regime? No, to be honest, because these things are still getting out on places like Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok, these images are still all over, which of course is not to say that they're not repressing them in a lot of cases. They are doing that, they're banning accounts, they're shadow banning content, but they're still out there to a pretty staggering extent, I think. Sometimes I will see an image on a place like Instagram, like a video of the aftermath of an Israeli Ashraq or something like that, and I am shocked first and foremost at the images naturally, but I'm also shocked that I'm seeing this on Instagram. How did they allow this content? Sometimes it doesn't even have like a graphic content warning. It's not an invitation to start banning this content if anyone from Instagram is watching this. I think it's great that you can see it there. But you know, this is Instagram, this is Method, this is Mark Zuckerberg, this is someone else that is very close ties with the political establishment in the US, and it has proven very willing to censor content in the past, just as the old regime with Twitter was. So you never know, but I don't have the feeling that things would be all that different had Musk not bought Twitter. As a matter of fact, just due to information as well, Musk was meeting with the Israeli president yesterday and saying despicable things about Gaza and the war. So I don't have any particular trust in this person when it comes to this conflict and moderation content on it. That's true. And I think he said that because he got into a bit of hot water for a tweet he made which could be construed as anti-Semitic a couple of weeks earlier. So he's kind of all over the shop with that. But let me put it back on that a little bit though because on one hand, yes, this information is on Instagram and Facebook and so on, but on the other, the political elites and journalists opinion makers, they are on Twitter. So they might not necessarily be going to Instagram and Facebook to look for that content. And also I recall that back in the day, Zuckerberg and other platforms as well were meeting with the US security establishment and Biden's team and so on to suppress or censor content. Maybe the only reason they're not doing it now and that you can see images without graphic warnings are the type you describe is because they know that the public, they might have to enter in one window and Instagram and the other and be like, what the hell? This is like two different worlds and they're kind of forced to show that stuff. I don't know. So I'm not sure that we can say that it's exactly the same situation despite the fact that Musk bought Twitter, but I don't know, tell me. I mean, you're saying? I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that there would be zero difference. I'm just saying that he wouldn't particularly, I don't think it would be a game-changing difference, like I guess what I'm trying to say, because yes, and Musk in some respects, he has been less strict with his policing of content than the old regime of Twitter was, which by the way, I have nothing, no good things to say about and the type of collusion that they had with US intelligence agencies and all that. I'm just saying that I don't really see the difference being that significant. I guess what I'm trying to say, as far as mainstream journalists are concerned as well, I don't know. They get information, the Western ones, they get information mostly straight from the Israeli government. I think, you know, they're not, they're on Twitter, especially in places like Germany, they're on Twitter to see who is not towing the line and to then bring their power fully onto those people to try to silence them and shut them down, like artists, people like that. But they're not that should try to get any news that they're going to seriously report on. We take it. Okay, so as we come to a close on this, I'd like to look forward and see where do you see things going now in terms of these social media dynamics, in terms of how they're impacting statements from leaders and actually the political discussion in those circles where decisions are made that could really impact things on the ground? Well, I'm not going to try to make any predictions because, you know, it's usually fair when you try to do those, when it comes to Israel Palestine. However, you do get a sense that this is a whenever going to go back to how the world was in relation to this situation before October this year, I think things are going to be permanently changed. And my hope in my sense as well is that they will be changed in the sense that a pro-Palestine sentiment for a resolution that would bring freedom in Palestine to all people, for Israeli Jewish people, for Palestinians, everyone who lives in Palestine essentially and whose homeland is Palestine. My hope is that this whole situation, despite of and because of the tragedy that triggered it, will bring us closer to this to the solution. I also think that it's important for people never to underestimate the power of Western public opinion on this on this issue, especially in the US, but also very much in Europe. The minute we get a critical mass in public opinion in our countries, in Western countries, I think it's game over for the Israeli government's apartheid. It's game over for their occupation. It's game over for this 75 year long, even longer injustice that we see going on in Palestine. We need to make them pariahs as they deserve it should be. And I think the only way we do that is by influencing public opinion in the West because it's the West that backs the perpetuation of the system of oppression in Palestine. So do not underestimate the power of posting essentially, post, post away, post all the time, post about Palestine, post in defense of the Palestinian people, post about the climate of repression that is going on in your countries. If you try to say something that was pro-Palestine in class in school and you got silence, post about it, do that. It really does make a difference if not right now in the long term. And don't stop there naturally, mobilize, go out on the streets, try to influence things in other ways as well. But I think that in keeping with the theme of our discussion here, do not discount the power of social media. Well said. Well, thank you very much for that, Lucas. Lucas from Breiro, very interesting conversation. And yeah, good. Thank you. Thanks.