 Hey Taylor. Oh good morning. I'm doing good. How about yourself? I'm all right today weather's going off here and Austin, Texas where I am finally Over a hundred all summer My mom and sister live in San Antonio and so yeah, yeah Hey, I pinged you on We can talk about it later I pinged on on slack about an issue Okay Test suite or certification related? Yeah, exactly. Yeah All right, just a no drain. I have a question. Are you available at 915 central tomorrow? Let me look if I am all right. We have a The CNF test suite office hours just play at 915 if you hop on there. I'll make sure Some of the team is on and I know that there's been a bunch of updates I'm mainly dealing with stuff like litmus chaos and other Upstream project updates and trying to make stuff work So it wouldn't be about no drain but they can work with you on that Okay, we'll point them to the slack. Hey, Tom Yeah You will get started here in just a minute Does anyone have any items to add to the agenda today? Like to talk about right as Monitor this call is recorded recordings are published to the CNCS YouTube Channel for the CNF working group Qubecon EU 2024 CFPs are open until November 26 It's a little ways out, but the time catches up pretty quick one summit North America is open till December 3rd. If you're interested in any of those and I suggest start working on items ahead of time Let's see nefio Technical steering committee and developer summit Tom. Are y'all engaged in That closely the nefios Staff do y'all have someone on the TSC? Yep, so my manager Ian was on the TSC They're gonna be joining that. I Think he might be doing a panel, but obviously we can't travel to California So I think he's doing a panel remotely But I'm not sure how many of the Sessions are kind of available remotely or by video. So all right, we might struggle to join most of it Do you have the or can you add a link for the panel? I'd like to Try to schedule that when you get a chance Yeah, sure. Let's see the KCD Texas got canceled unfortunately is a KCD UK so gone. Do you know Tom? I had an email about the other day. I'm sorry. She must still go in. Yeah Okay, great. I Don't think those are allowed remote though. Do they? They didn't last year. I went in person last year, but I won't be going this year right Hey, the cloud night of telco day and Coming up here in Chicago the schedule has been published Those who don't know that Let's see. What else do we have? I Guess jumping into Do we have any new PRs? No I'm not gonna get through all the issues. We have a quite a few, but I'll just see if we have any new ones I guess this is a newest one actually Okay This would be good. So yeah, that's right We merged the new single concern, but That pull request didn't add it. That's a good catch. We've seen a Spitting a link and starting to build this one out. I Feel like there's a few that are missing. Okay. I got it. Let me look through that. We won't do that right now Tom, I think you brought this up. Hey, Oliver the Coach here nominations. Oh Yeah Yeah, so I Can't remember what we used before some type of voting System that Someone else had set up some online voting. I Think it was mainly used in Europe and We went through that but we first need to put people forward. So I Think the last times that we did that, I don't think there's anything in here I'm not seeing it that say exactly what we did, but just putting it up on Sending an email for nominations Yeah Yeah, we didn't we don't really have it in here. It's very high level. So Anyways, and we can do some nominations and And I would say just sending an email seems good enough That's how still see it on some of the other groups Okay, and we need to Thanks, Lucena. We need to Send an email like this and just say Yeah You'll send something out Tom. Yeah, that's right. I'm happy to do so Yeah, go ahead and do it. I don't see why something just like this mentions that we want to coach here Yeah Link to the governance page and I think we had one that said it a little different This is Kubernetes be cloud cloud native or CNCF or whatever. So there's the And it's a CNF users. I thought it was like CNF developers Okay, CNF users CNF developers and users. Okay, the wording is a little weird. So but you know what we want Tom So we want to adjust it Welcome See someone is It well, I don't know how to say your name Koon Leo Yeah, good evening. This is my first time of journey Yeah, good evening everyone And where are you from? Yeah, I'm from Nigeria. Yeah, I was part of the Zero zero to match court by Taylor by Taylor and so from there, you know getting to know more about the CNCF landscape and the community So I think I went through some of the and I wanted to join and see how You know to contribute and be part of you know, this great community So I'm in DevOps engineer and So that's what I do And what company did you say you're with? Yeah, metalloids metalloids in Nigeria Okay, great Um, can you please add your just name and and company here at the top? Okay, oh and I'll I'll drop the link the link Okay. Yeah, it's uh now on chat Okay, I've seen that. Okay. I'll do that All right, okay Thank you And if you have any like specific items that you want to talk about you can just add it right into this agenda section Okay, okay. Thank you Okay, all right I'll move on to the next one. Uh, let's see Linux foundation at sea. I think this is just a FYI I dropped this. Um Did anyone else see this? collaboration announcement This was announced at the open source summit Europe Oliver we already uh aware of some of these I was not All right, you mind throwing that link in the chat Um, I can it's in the dog. I shouldn't think yet. Never mind. Yeah. All right so Tomer are y'all using Any of this stuff like this the cloud native function descriptor specifications that etsy has I know that the descriptors have been part of the vnf for quite a while um I imagine we are yes. Um, we ask for Etsy specific etsy compliant descriptors To vnf and cnf anders So some of this has to do with packaging and some of its You know, I guess interoperability for the packaging and there's api stuff and everything else I'm wondering, you know, how that's going to tie in with projects like nephio and And then if we look at custom projects like the dash with flux lots of practices but so with so with nephio, um the uh I remember an early conversation with google around that and Essentially they said that any kind of etsy standards would just need to be a you know Just another requirement. Um That is so it's not a priority from their point of view And if it's not a priority from the Community's point of view, then it won't be done It's it's it's essentially just another requirement But the my understanding of those descriptors is it's just a way of describing As the name suggests just a word describing the functionality that a given cnf provides, it's not Under the under the hood. They're still using things like hell and whatever else to actually deploy The applications I'm wondering, you know, what I guess how we can If we need to and if there's something for us to look into for I guess complimenting how that's going to work or Where there's going to be conflicts and pointed out We weren't part of I guess the most recent plug test Um For matzi We had two of them where there was efforts to cnf cncf or cnf best practices and The etsy standards around some of this and some internal etsy Suggestions are made for Some of them that would update and then there's some conflicts pointed out Seems like there may should be another round of that I don't know if we should do something like that. Maybe on this side as well Where it's where there could be conflicts or there could be you know, complementary efforts What practices Yeah, it'd be good to see You know, I I don't have a detailed enough view of everything to be able to Answer that now, but yeah, I think that'd be useful ritual I'm doing etsy like Compatibility with etsy standards specific especially things like the That cnf just descriptors and other items because it seems like some of those are going to that the implementation for How things fit together in a workload and how the system fits together Yeah, I know we align with them You know with our vns. I need to look and see If we carry that forward to how we're describing the cnf's I need to dig into that a little bit more All right I think this could be a An area that we could dig into more. I'm going to move on for now unless someone has more questions or comments All right So everyone here know about the ngmn or anyone not know about this ngmn cloud data Benefesta Is this new for someone? I think tom have that funds a signer if I recall correctly So you know about it Retrieve familiar with this. Yeah recorded one of my colleagues is one of the co-authors Yeah, we Yeah, we saw it when it came out Looks like it was very comprehensive and it seemed like it lined well with what You know the cncf Philosophy is around cloud native Higher level stuff, but um You know opinionated for What they're wanting. I think it's Pretty good that they're coming out with it I don't know how much it's getting bred especially and Specifically in like North America, but good that f5 started about it Um, yeah, here's some of the companies So we have bell canada and tell us as far as North America that I recognize so We one of the things that we're talking about last time and so we've we've merged the best practice The single concern related best practice We're looking what should be the next one to focus on as a group Of course anybody can work on any content for one, but As a group to have something that we can focus and try to push there What would be the nest practice and we have some GitHub issues That we could always look at where Different ones are here with this live nest probes or other nest probes and some of them actually have a draft Uh This whole section that was put forward by daniel when they're at bell canada on multi interface I think there's a pretty large discussion around this Um And victor I think put some different ideas. So anyways I was thinking that There may be something directly from the ngm Do we know what they're you know after that manifesto? I don't know tom you said one of your colleagues was one of the authors if What they plan was kind of their next step after releasing that manifesto Um, not sure to be honest. I'll ask. Um If i'm honest our team aren't normally involved in the ngm Okay The kind of team in vodafone that are linked with it are our r&d team. So It tends to be you know longer time frame stuff Um, I think a cardo was brought in to write You know contribute to the manifesto because Of the expertise we've got So he's he's one of the he's he's the ptl for anika r a2 and You know between him and what we do in this group There was a bit more Knowledge about what should be in there I would I would ask him um, so I know some of the folks from there they're wanting to have Move from the higher level on this to some more specific items on a I guess the suggestion of That you get in a manifesto and then even further along to items where you can use when you're talking with vendors and stuff to have more More implementation or integration specific questions some type of the list And that I think that's kind of an alignment with the idea of Best what best practices could we have that would support The manifesto so we if they're saying these are the things that we like then What are some best practices that get these? so I'm gonna I don't know if this hard for y'all to read This easier the font was the smallest in my mind So deep coupled infrastructure in application cycle vertical monoliths api first So these are all high level areas, but we could Look at trying to Pull out or find best practices that are related to these Seems like it would be good. Have alignment with them Get ups principles so this one You can look at stuff like how flux is using the dash chef project from the chateau com Uses get ups Nephio Has some get ups. I think primarily because of the kpt project which which is it's like core to Nephio They take on a lot of that The interoperability side. I think there's a lot where you can tie in with that the Etsy cnf descriptors would be probably an area to explore even on interoperability Anyways does Is there anything You know tom and rich especially Oliver if matrix has looked at this Where there's an area that y'all think would be good to dig into so The bit you just had highlighted. I think is Kind of falls into quite a lot of what we've discussed previously in what macarons this area Yeah so A lot has been tried in the past by anika by silver By others i'm sure To kind of define and relatively opinionated This is what we should ask all telcos to deploy and also enough vendors to you know develop against and Well, it hasn't worked yet and And the signs aren't showing that it will work So if if we had Certification processes which could cope with um A wider set of opinions and were automated and robust and You know not adding lots of delay Then that feels to me like that would be valuable Um rather than having It's It's not quite what it's worded like there But I think the first bit I think I agree with We had well-defined certificate certification processes But that aren't based on opinionated architectures That are based on flexibility Instead Well, maybe I'm just um I may be missing your point there. I I think I agree with you wholeheartedly, but are you I mean if we look at what we're doing within within cnf working group and then the Perhaps not always obvious for everyone but the connection to the you know the cnf test suite um Do you see do you see that essentially being an uh, you know, I assume the answer is yes, but a viable way to address this as being, you know Less opinionated in terms of any specific infrastructure It's more kubernetes, of course Yeah, yeah, I agree um, obviously You know the cnf test suite is going to develop over time, but yes, I think that's Starting in the right place Is maybe there's a question for taylor and The the fact that they are best practices in the work group and then there's another You know another group that essentially is looking after the test suite that connection Any ideas on how we can make that connection stronger or are there risks in your mind of making that connection stronger? So that people understand the best practices You know, I know That we we work with best practices developing those and then of course we have the test suite, but I don't I don't know that we see that it's the carryover of same individuals from working on best practices to contributing or consuming those those Those tests that are available today in the test suite I wonder if it's an awareness or Just kind of reflecting on what tom was saying there You're there I know I think we need a few more Welcome. I'd be welcome ever anyone that wants to join on both sides. Um F5, you know a your experience I think would be very welcome on in the Specifically, I'm saying rich in the in the testing development would be useful And that's something that all of us talking about here. So how to get people involved on both sides so the The reality is that it's going to often be Different people and and maybe even different teams that are going to have the most interest in each of the areas And that can tie a little in like what tom was saying as far as teams and vodafone that are More on the r&d side and looking further out in the future And they're going to affect all of vodafone, but it may be On a longer time frame Before things roll in to the production teams that tom's are coming on Well, the the way that the cnf working group goes is it's often Behind where the development is so the way I I'd look at it all of ours if you go look at the kubernetes conformance And who's behind that there's not a kubernetes conformance team that's developing on the test the kubernetes conformance group is people that are part of kubernetes architecture sig architecture the kubernetes sig testing um And then a bunch of other people that are part of the kubernetes conformance working group And there's this combination of people that are talking and saying what should we have that's part of kubernetes conformance. So then what is kubernetes conformance real quick? It's interoperability between different kubernetes environments or Platforms or products that are using kubernetes how to make sure they're interoperable between each other. So that's their main thing So then going back to it, oliver What what are we looking at here? Well sig testing is who are the primary people developing test and they're always going to be ahead of the conformance decisions and Practices that they're pointing out saying hey, these are the most important interoperability items that we want to push forward and say everybody else should follow They have hundreds more tests beyond what's in kubernetes conformance That are important as far as testing goes, but they're going to select sets that they think are the most important for that interoperability between the products We're doing something similar as far as the Practices that we're highlighting within the working group and it's going to be behind so we want the test suite to be We're not while we're not testing a single product. It's meant to People test anything. So what matrix is doing, you know, what f5 is doing What tom may want to do? to check on and onboarding a cnf as a end user Consuming those cnfs. So we want to make sure the test suite is a useful tool everywhere just like the kubernetes sig testing is trying to make the e2e test suite always covering As many of the apis and whatever functional Functional and unit tests are needed. They're going to try to cover that and then The other team will eventually come in and highlight any items So there is there's Overlap and there are people like I said that are part of sig testing or the architecture team that are helping That have an understanding of how it all fits together That end up part of that highlighting What are those most important items? I think we do need that and to some extent we do have it. We've had people like litmus chaos team that have Delivered both direct contributions to the test suite and they've Had stuff Go into the cnf word group, but yes, we can have more of it As far as like how do we get more? I i'm not sure oliver other than just we keep asking Maybe we could have like a highlight of You know push out some pr marketing. We just released this new best practice oliver for a single concern There is a single concern related test Sometimes there's multiple tests for a best practice because implementation can check multiple things Maybe we could pr talking about the test suite and the best practice and say hey Come come help contribute and say if you want to develop or you want to do something then come join there and for going going back real quick To pitch and ask for some help or come join us rich If f5 has an area where like from the toiling tool test side If you have something where you would Find benefit and some some area being tested then You know, please come talk on the test suite side A higher level would be working group, but test suite We would like to make it useful and then maybe that rolls back the other way you're already here Come join us over there. Okay Yeah, it might be me. I might actually pull in somebody else. Like you mentioned maybe from our dev team So that's a good suggestion great and just as a reminder, I said it earlier, but the CNF test suite side we have a weekly office hours on tuesday at 7 15 Pacific time So whoever wants to join there join If you're using the test suite as toll and you have questions or you have suggestions Or whatever else you can join that and Get hub just you can drop issues. Whatever you want Oliver do you have any follow-up? That was your question comments Yeah, no, I think I I don't have any groundbreaking anything groundbreaking, but I do like your idea of maybe Seeing if we can just go out with a press release I think it'll just bring some attention to both efforts of this the working group and in developing best practices But also the test suite where you can actually then, you know use it to test against products that are looking to Follow, you know the best practices for cloud native network network networking It doesn't hurt. I guess if we have the ability to make You know continue to make people aware All right Does anyone have any specific ideas or even high-level ideas of best practices related to the ngmn? cloud native manifesta If you don't have any right now, that's fine and I just asked if if y'all would think about it maybe Go chat with your team, especially if you're working on this Tom if I don't know if there's anybody that could get engaged that was like rich now to Ricardo and talking to his team, but it would in my mind it'd be great to Extend from this and say, okay, Vodafone really cares about this set I mean obviously they're a part of writing it, but what part did they really care about and then can we extract some Best practices that they may have or at least know an area Where they care about and then we can dig in Yeah, let's go around And then same thing for you know Rich you and Oliver if y'all look at it and say this is an area that we think is important I mean these are the people on on the list would be y'alls end-user. So If we can find something that's most relevant to y'alls software then That that to help and then we dig into something that's actually going to be important to you So this was I wish there was some more people on this call today, but it's fine This will be recorded. Maybe we get some more later and can post to the working group channels so Brainstorming just trying to get an idea so that we can what what do we want to focus on next so something used to silver useful for silver Um, there's been some stuff about what's missing. I know that the one summit There was like a fireside chat that's on youtube now if y'all haven't seen it And it was talking about um, silva and aniquette and other stuff and it talked about some missing things and some of them are Like european specific requirements Uh, but there was some other stuff in here, but is is that something anyone here is familiar with? just something missing or things that would be useful for silva and reach out to Orange but if if any of y'all are involved more directly with silva or not someone I'll ask our contacts and silver I'm not aware of anything All right, this one's good Oh, I'm being good at this Okay, this is even higher level Uh, if well, it's kind of high level, but I mean it could be project area Like does any any thing jumping out like this will be a good area for us to focus in on And the same best practice it could be best practice, but we may end up we've talked about writing up some other things as well Uh, I know victor Was wanting to do something around fio when we were talking about highlighting Practices or areas that are would be useful for an fio which probably get down into kpt stuff like declarative configuration That could get into interoperability style best practices Any of these tom met more important to you than others Probably the automated testing of validating a new stack or new software Yeah, that's quite general. That's quite wide Um, and what what I mean by that is probably Um, so being able to validate That an application is operating as expected On a platform that's using let's say calico as a c and i just to pick an example Um And then same application deployed onto a platform that's using So let's say sillion as a c and i and obviously those two c and i's have got different features That can be used by applications through the use of annotations c id's etc etc and so Going back to my earlier point about kind of having a less opinionated Set of stacks Flows into the automatic testing by saying okay, so I'm running the tests and then I don't know a flag is passed saying You know, which c and i has been used on the accompanied file or whatever it is Or or it's discovered whatever That's a kind of implementation detail, but the The validation process I think should allow for that variance While still testing for The things that we were testable whether that's Behavior Under certain conditions or Ability to control outbound traffic or whatever anyone else have Feedback on that or do you want to highlight any of the others for an area? What about challenges? Oliver rich Is it? How do you say your name again? Couldn't like what was To know my Yeah Yeah Does any of this jump out at you as items that y'all Are do you do y'all work directly in networking and telecom related domain? No, no, yeah I'm just going to Uh Get ups Get up. So yeah, so you so get up. Do y'all have networking customers and telecommunication customers No, no, no, no, no telecommunication customers. I could see most of y'all I could see wonderful. Uh, yeah, but none other have telecommunication customers All right. Are y'all using get ups? Yeah, it's as a principle. Yeah All right Tom have y'all started to take get ups patterns directly practices and patterns into How y'all are doing anything? Um, yeah Yeah All right, I wouldn't say it's being done at scale across The kind of core of a network Rich Oliver, what about y'all silence? All right. Well, are you I go ahead? Are you are you asking what are some of our most challenges? Uh, yeah, either like is there an area the best practice that you care more about or is there challenges that you have that could drive something? Yeah, I would probably say the get ups and the automated testing as Tom already pointed out So you maybe be a plus one on this as well, Rich. Yep And the get ups Yeah, I think I would probably just um, I know we've spoke about it before but I I'm not sure exactly how we do it, but I think looking at nephew. Um I think down the road. There is obviously some interest in and understanding what, you know, what specific Um You know, what's expected of a cnf in order to be Compatible with nephew and it would be ideal that it doesn't end up going You know being too opinionated so looking for the best practice out of nephew that That we can align on I think that would be interesting for understanding the best practices that we have that would be great for nephew to to leverage right One of the things that we're also doing and I I don't want to promise any date because I don't know when we'll be able to bring it together, but As any other vendor who's dealing with certifications on different infrastructures, we we tend to go through a lot of testing um, and we certainly do see some Overlaps but there are areas that are you know covered by one and not by the other That would also be maybe interesting to kind of understand where you have more common, you know where there's commonality To see if we've got coverage for those kinds of tests As well, and I'm hoping we can do that with our engineering team is to sort of consolidate A number of tests that we've seen that are overlapping And then try to recognize whether or not that's that's covered today I know that's more maybe test suite, but I think it's still backs into what's the best practices behind it That sounds good um, well, I feel like we have enough areas that we should be able to Maybe start narrowing it down um, I'm gonna try to Maybe highlight some things that I see this week and If anyone has specific things then maybe by next week we can say Here's a set of items drop some github issues and I know we have in the current issues We linked to some google docs for drafts. So we'll try to do a draft for anything that looks more likely to talk about and if you have One that you're more opinionated that we should focus on them You can start something or drop a github issue And or just reach out to me. I'm happy to get something started I know that once we had the google doc and and we could start Collaborating either async or in smaller ongoing Working sessions we're able to really move that forward and I'd like to get that started You know by next week at the latest Actually get going on one even if we end up with multiple it's fine, but we need to get started on one of them Keep that momentum going Anything else before we end today's session Thanks, everyone. Have a good day Thanks Thanks, y'all