 everyone so we're just going to run the meeting the same way that we have in the past where if you'd like to speak just indicate by raising your hand you'll see you have the option to do that on your screen so just feel free to do that or unmute yourself if you have a question and we'll put you in speaking order so we're going to start with speak out if anyone wants to participate please indicate by raising your hand um either on video or just letting me know I want to start by saying a big thank you to Carol and Liam and Auden and everyone else who helped on organizing the all wards mayoral debate and ballot forum along with the translation portion of that I know it was a lot of work and it was not an easy process I think Liam Carol and I are best friends now based on the amount of time we spent on zoom together but I'm really excited with how it came out and very grateful for their help and support um with that but now if anyone else I see Dave has his hand raised so feel free to go thank you and evening everyone um I had two announcements I wanted to make um the first was uh you may recall there's a safety study going on uh regarding Colchester app and this is starting to wind down towards its its final phase the the study team and the advisory committee will be getting together on thursday the 18th to go over the options and I think we're at this meeting we're trying to reach consensus about what are the best options for the the Colchester app corridor um you may recall that things like raised and separated bike lanes are are part of the options um there's also a look at how much parking to retain or not uh particularly in the section between east av and green mount cemetery and there's also proposals about what to do uh regarding east av and Colchester app intersection so all those things will be discussed if you're at all interested in it there's some great information on the website at the chitin and county regional planning commission Colchester app safety study I'm also happy to speak with anybody about that that may be interested in in learning more about this uh and so that and I should be able to on the rep for the board one npa for this committee so uh I should be able to give a report back to the committee at the march uh npa meeting and the the second announcement I wanted to make was that I've also been working with a group of the old east end neighbors and we've been having uh organizing ourselves to try to spruce up shamanska park a little bit we had a we have a uh uh really kind of a celebration called winter lude that we wanted to put together we had to scale back a little bit because of covid a lot of our uh in in uh person events had to be cancelled but if you're interested there are some things to check out we've done an incredible job of illuminating the barn and the surrounding area there so if you want to see a nice uh lit up uh park uh the lights turn on about five fifteen in the evening and they stay on until about uh midnight there's also a story walk there so it's great for kids or really if anybody any age it goes for about a quarter of a mile and it depicts a a story that you can read as you walk along through the park and we've also put together a uh woods trail the new woods trail that connects shamanska park to um green mount cemetery and there's some historic markers along there and also some other markers about that so if you want to take a snowy walk through the woods it's a great spot to do it so some some interesting things to check out there so those are those are my two announcements right thank you and for every for anyone just joining us we're currently doing speak out so please just indicate with a hand raise if you'd like to make a comment believe Liam you have your hand raised and then Karen yeah thank you um I just wanted to make it clear in terms of how this meeting is going I've been saying this at all the npa's over the past couple weeks um after the speak out I'm going to move everyone who's not a panelist or just a presenter and a steering committee member to the attendees list in in loose in the interest of security um you can still raise your hand for q and a sections when we have them and I can let you unmute and all that stuff but uh just for um how we're presenting it now is sort of in that style so I know it's not everybody's favorite way to have virtual meetings but um the place that we're moving to at the moment if anybody has any question about that you can also ask me right thank you Liam um and now Karen yeah I think that's a good idea I was at the four seven meeting when they got bombed and it was interesting because you'd think it would be easier than like throwing someone out of a room that's you know maybe inappropriate but it took a while um for them to figure out what to do and was you know it was the first time I've ever seen anything like that was interesting but anyway um I just wanted to say and you know people have heard me say this forever that my concern for some of our housing I mean I I did some leafletting lately um for mats and I was in the new north end and where it's mostly owner occupied and there's such a difference in a neighborhood there and then I also leafleted in my neighborhood in ward one and um it's just astounding at some of the the condition of some of our houses and there's a particular place on Pearl Street that has no or missing many storms and one window was open I haven't sent to Zariah and Jack um there's like maybe two inches open with like a rag or something stuck on the bottom the front vestibule doors don't open don't shut because I tried to put stuff in there but anyway I talked to the people that live there and they said yeah it's pretty bad inside but it's an it's an apartment they said it's been broken up into apartments so I came home I checked it has not been expected since 2017 the COC expired in 2019 um I don't know I'm just really concerned about that so last night at the forum someone talked about the same similar problem and they said about zero tolerance for slumlords and I love that idea like why do we allow this to go on with some of these rental apartments I mean they're housing it's not fair to the people it's not fair to the neighborhoods it's just strip mining our houses so I love that idea of zero tolerance so maybe that's something you guys are doing lots of good things you're young and energetic our city counselors working their tails off with late meetings but it just is something that I can't understand why we have put up with that for all these years so anyway thank you guys anyone else want to participate and speak it out last call for okay Jonathan yes thanks I just want to gang on what Karen said Karen told me about this property and I went and did a very quick look at the um at the rental at the rental database that's on the property database page and and certificates of compliance can be given out as one year through five year COCs and just looking at the one two and three years where you'd say there's got to be something wrong you know the fours and fives you might say yeah things are great but the ones twos and threes there's something wrong fully one quarter of those um those properties are out of inspection they haven't been inspected in their time they're they're they're out of date um so that means they're effectively three four and five kind of um you know they've been moved because of resources presumably the city has moved those properties to better quality properties because they're not inspecting them so it is it does really I I'm just agreeing with Karen thank you and then Tom and followed by Carol yeah along the same lines do we still have a limit on how many cars someone can park in their front yard I take it we don't well I'll answer because I've been crazy about this also we all have lot coverage there are lot coverage limits and you are not supposed to turn green space to a parking space and really front yard parking isn't allowed in our zoning at all like if you look at the regulations front yard parking is just not allowed I I'm on Spear Street often and um number 74 which I think is still in Burlington yeah it's got uh usually five six seven cars and it's pretty clear that they waited for the grass to freeze so that they could park in the lawn there's one car that parks right adjacent to the asphalt and um and they're not alone in that stretch uh basically uh to the I guess it'd be the east of of Spear Street opposite the UVM campus there's a number of houses one I think had as many as seven cars in front of it and um I do we do we have a limit as to how many people can live in a single rental four four unrelated adults well it could be one guy that but it seems unlikely okay I mean the shame is okay we're talking about the lake getting ruined so that's that's why a lot coverage matters because all the runoff goes down to the water yeah so call call poor bill thanks um and now Carol you're on mute I would point out that bill ward is um presenting tonight um but I don't think we want to dump on poor bill tonight but I think we certainly could flag um I think this has probably been a long time coming that we would love to have bill and whoever else um could come and and listen to some of our concerns and inform some of us about what those ordinances are and about um enforcement of those ordinances and what we can do um as an npa or um you know citizens of Burlington so maybe we put bill if enough of us are really concerned and want more information we certainly could put bill on a future agenda and um have it be you know a give and take um to be able to have that conversation with with a city um the city inspector thank you and then I'll just say a comment I think like I would feel more comfortable if we didn't call out specific address numbers when we're talking just because like when we're talking about housing because this is being recorded and uploaded to youtube and we don't know people situations and I feel like that could be kind of uncomfortable for someone who isn't even attending the meeting to have to be like talking about their house in terms of that maybe people feel differently but I just feel like that could be a big security thing um and then I see final hand as Jim hi thanks um I just wanted to say I guess and I use it all the time see click fix a lot of these things and I know some people use them and they may not get results I've had 100 success with it all the time and I don't think it's because of who I am being on the DPW commission but I I really do get some great results from that so when you see people parking on the lawn when you see storm windows open like that throw it in there you get a response right back and they uh they tell you who they're slotting it to so at least you know who to check up on if it doesn't get done and if you do enough of these you start getting shared other people's you know hey this might be concerning to you and you can look into it and vote um it's it's a I think we should use that tool because they're using it extensively so that's just my two cents thank you um now we will move into city council updates in Q&A so whoever wants to go first and then just feel free to continue on and then we can leave questions for the end I'm happy to open it up um so yeah hi everybody um I hope everyone's doing fine and hanging in there um so as of today uh mail in ballots are have been mailed out um or they're starting to do so so that's exciting um and that's just kind of like a general reminder of you have between now um and March 2nd to vote um and if you are a procrastinator try to vote before or at least mail it back in before the 30th um just to make sure it's counted just wanted to make sure everyone's aware of that um and that's for everyone who's a registered voter in Burlington um I'm going to hit on just a few things and then Jack and Zariah will hit on the rest um but I wanted to remind folks about the charter change items that are going to be on the ballot so we have ranked choice voting which we talked about last time um that's going to be for city council elections only so that's going to voters but we want to adopt that um just cause of for evictions um so establishing you know yeah so there has to be just cause um and instead of the current system which is no cause which we also talked about um adding a new ski member to the airport commission um and a regulation of thermal energy and buildings to reduce greenhouse gas emissions so those are the four ballot um for charter change items on the ballot that you'll see shortly if you're forgetting your ballot going into your mailbox um and then another quick little exciting thing is Amtrak service between Burlington and New York City um will um is slated to begin later this year um potentially early next year um this year could be crazy we don't know um but that's exciting so um yeah I just want people to be uh just as excited about that and um yeah I think that that's kind of like around the fringe of updates of the last month and um I'll hand it over to someone else I can jump in or do you want to go Zariah cool um I realized there was kind of a theme in a lot of the items that I was thinking of talking to they kind of all have to do with buildings in a way um so there's the charter change around thermal energy and buildings which we'll talk more about later tonight um we also had a big breakthrough on district energy um which is trying to capture um the waste heat from the McNeil biomass plant and and um use that for heating buildings in Burlington this has been talked about literally since McNeil was built McNeil was built with this in mind but we've never followed through and made it happen but it's actually um it's reached a level in the process that it has never reached before it's the closest to actually becoming reality that it's ever been we talked about it on Monday but it's moving into this this phase three and and basically there's a partnership between Evergreen what do they call the Evergreen energy um their non-profit um Vermont gas the medical center the city so basically the medical center would be the main off-taker of the waste steam so I'm happy to talk more about that if there's questions but that's a really exciting development um rental weatherization um is something I've been working on since I was elected two years ago and um that's also getting very close to the finish sign we're discussing it in ordinance committee we've been at it for a while I do think we're getting really close at this point you know we've had the draft ordinance in front of us for a couple meetings now and I think we're almost we're almost there um in terms of getting that back to the council for a final vote um and I think this rental weatherization addresses one of the biggest sources of issues that we have in our rental housing a lot of them can be addressed through rental weatherization in terms of these buildings not being not being very livable and not being up to certain standards this is a really promising way to get at that issue um and then there's another item that I think often gets sort of confused with the thermal energy charter change which is an ordinance that we're working on around new buildings and the concept with this is that for new construction the primary heating source would have to be renew renewable so this would be a requirement for new construction um and a couple other building related things I guess the city place development um there's a new development agreement um a draft development agreement that the council is going to be voting on on monday um we just got to take a look at it at our last meeting the administration's been working on it um with um yeah with with the partnership that's that's trying to bring this this new concept forward um and I think you know I wrote a brief summary in front porch forum on it but basically this the streets would immediately street sidewalks green space that would immediately get transferred to the city at no cost under this agreement um and then there would be milestones that the developer would have to meet by certain dates in order to maintain TIF financing so it's definitely stronger than than the previous development agreement which obviously didn't get us where we needed to be but this one does seem I think more promising um and then finally also sort of building related is um we did we the council advanced to ordinance committee responsible contractor ordinance draft which is for any city you know city contracts on on new project or on projects um construction projects um the the contractors would have to meet certain standards for of of employee of being a responsible employer not only in terms of wages but also in terms of you know classification and just really complying with the law because we've heard reports that many find loopholes or don't fit pay or otherwise treat their employees fairly on these projects and we don't want to be spending you know public money on on that sort of thing so this would be a much stronger standard it's based off of what Montpelier did recently so a bit of a whirlwind on a bunch of building related things um and then I can speak more to other stuff during the the candidate forum great that means I'm next and to speak to a few of the things um I've been really hoping to have a way to have um complaints and see click fix talk more to the certificate of compliance process and that you know if folks are talking about the same building that that starts to reduce the number of years that it has um I think right now Bill doesn't think that's a viable option I think especially because of what Jonathan said in terms of I think they're behind anyway on just the things that they're supposed to do so I don't think they think adding to the list is a thing but I definitely I think it's a great idea to kind of have a work session in terms of what to do it's definitely housing is the issue I was most excited about running on and um I think I think figuring out what we do what we do especially in our ward um or in our district um would be really helpful and I just also want to say thank you because I feel like so many people in our ward are kind of as citizens doing the work of trying to keep our housing stock together and um keeping our sidewalks and so I just I think I want to see that and call that out and just say a huge thank you for the folks who are doing that work um just on there on their free time um and the second thing I'm going to speak to is the police vote on Monday um Jonathan had sent me a question that I felt like I wanted to address to the whole npa and also just give some transparency to what happened um and I won't speak on it so long but I'm happy to go into more of the details if folks want um and the basics of it is that the mayor and the administration along with the brilliant police department had put forward a proposal for a kind of interim plan until the assessments are done to increase the police cap again and to also have um a few other positions including moving community service officers from two positions to six with the opportunity to go up to um 12 total I think maybe 10 total and then on CSLs to have one in the Burlington Police Department and two yet to be determined and that was already at least the start of a conversation I meet with the mayor every Friday um to have conversations with him and the director of police transformation and the racial equity inclusion director and um Mark Hughes who of course is part of our npa and also an activist in the community and so we have these kind of conversations every week and so there were differing opinions on the council as to what would happen the majority of the council which was a long party lines um kind of felt that the cap should stay where it is for now the some others on the council um some democrats thought that it should go up but not to 84 and then if you thought it should go up to 84 or more um so there was quite a degree of variability kind of on where we were on that um I think there was there was kind of this middle ground where some folks were like oh like me for example I didn't think that we should raise the cap but I was willing to raise the cap in order to get some other assurances and people there were different things in terms of what folks wanted for assurances so one of the things that Jonathan had asked us to push for and that Jack pushed for pretty hard was to make sure that we don't lose some of those valued positions like the dvpo the domestic violence prevention officer or um I am a big fan of lacy and smith's position which is the um the community support or community I don't remember what her exact job title is but she's the only one in the police department and so there's been a little bit of a every time we talk about um police changes I think the police there's often the threat that those positions will be lost first which of course for those of us that really value those positions is the not is kind of the opposite of what we want and so um there'd been a compromise which was kind of led by myself and Karen Paul um to try to raise the cap but to try to get assurances that some of those positions would be protected as well as um for me to have some of the police budget redirected towards community service liaisons um so folks who would do more to address mental health basically to be more proactive so if there are 10 calls to the same location um that's somebody rather than responding to the tense call you know the next day follow follows up with that person says what's really going on how can we help you um what services do you need here's the services that we know we have access to so just doing some of that more proactive care whether it's you know suicide calls or neighbor conflicts or any of that and one of the reasons too is I've been on the school resource officer task force for the past few months and there's definitely been as we're talking about potentially getting rid of the school resource officers there's been a lot of talk about a need to have more um to have some basically somebody else who is kind of a after-school resource for youth and need and so um I was really wanted to get some of those community service positions um compromise fell through the mayor didn't like my proposition so then I worked with Karen Paul um and she really liked it and Sarah Carpenter really liked it but ultimately we just didn't have the votes to make it work and so I don't think and then there were some attempts at compromise made very late into the night but it wasn't I think really a viable time to suddenly switch to trying to figure out what to do so we moved forward with approving the community service officers and three community service liaisons one and bpd one to be determined and I don't think it's the end of the conversation I think at least there seemed like there was some room for finding ways to for those folks who feel uncomfortable with the number of police officers that we have now um to still go that way but for those of us that are like we have to start being serious about funding alternatives and finding a way to do that to also have a way forward on that so I'm happy sorry that was maybe a little bit longer than my update should have been I know that was a complicated issue that a lot of people have been paying attention to so I wanted to give a little bit more of the background on that and I do you mind if I just follow up briefly oh please no that's so one thing before I forget um with the ballots um so yeah it's universal mail-in ballots the city clerks the city clerk's office they are requesting that everyone send them back by the 20th actually and it's it's pretty hard work on their end to make this happen but it's a really tremendous benefit I think for our community to have this universal mail-in but I really would encourage folks it's really important for them to be able to count all the votes properly that you do send it back by the 20th so it's a tight turnaround it's about six days and the other thing I just wanted to follow up on the policing and public safety um and obviously it's you know extremely intertwined twined with racial justice and I think this is one of the hardest issues to talk about it's super emotionally charged for all of us on all sides when we talk about these core issues of safety and just feeling security or not and who's safe and who isn't and who feels comfortable in our community um and I just yeah I want to give a a huge shout out to Zariah for just leaning so heavily on this work it's really really difficult um we may not all agree on it you might not agree with Zariah but she has leaned in so deeply into this work and has been an incredible leader trying to forge a path um forward for the city so I just want to acknowledge that okay does anyone have any questions for the counselors can indicate but okay Karen has their hand raised yes um am I good I just I agree I mean I'm excited about can you hear me yeah okay I'm excited about this transformation that you're doing because I think proactive is just so important and I think the giving support to people so that they can get out of those dangerous situations is just so I mean it's just the way we need to go and we personally know unfortunately of a family that had to wait to call the police um when the it's a terrible story but unfortunately the police have to take a little bit of time to get there and it was too late three people were killed and so I mean I just it's a horrible thing in our society that these things happen but if we have the resources and the the public safety net for people like proactively I just think it's so great and I'm really appreciative of what you guys are doing I know that you're getting a lot of you know a lot of bad things are being said about it and it will take some time to work it out but I think it's really the right direction um so thank you I think it's really good Carol you can go yeah I just would um echo Karen's support and Jack's um I think it was it's troubling for me to to read and digger about how pointed the conversation got um and it just is right you have just worked so hard and and listened and collaborated and tried to reach consensus on what as Jack is characterizing it is such an emotional and tough issue um and to have it all be the focal point on you um just feels really bad and I know it feels miserable for you and I just whatever we can do to give you support you know I know someone spoke in the front porch forum and um you know just to have us all recognize how much you've brought you know with your bright mind and your really persevering heart um and I guess beyond my tears I guess what I'd like us to do as an npa um is to have it not if it is conversations if it is sharing our experiences if it is listening to one another I mean I learned a lot this summer by just listening to the call ins to the city council meetings learned a lot about what people's experiences have been you know as an older white woman I those are not my experiences and it was just so helpful to hear that information and you all heard it night after night and I think are responding to that and many of us did not hear it night after night and it's not been part of our personal experience and I I feel like the npas are are a place as well as you know local community organizations churches or whatever as a way to disseminate information or bring more of us together to talk about um what public safety means I mean for me a public safety is you know I call the cops when it's too noisy in shamanica park um but is that really who I should be calling you know is that really how I should be responding to needs in our community I just think there's so many basic things that we need to talk about that of what we're asking our police force to do what we're asking our community outreach people to do what can we do as citizens and I just think npas and other organizations can really be used um to educate people but also to sort of flesh out some possibilities and I guess like you know I'd be interested in in hearing what you have to say about that and um I just feel like npas can be part of a solution in a forum for conversation which needs to happen it can't all be focused on you guys it's just it's cruel at this point it's it's hard thank you um yeah Jonathan yeah I I appreciate Carol what you said and I appreciate Karen as well and I appreciate the work you've been doing Zariah I really do but um I the the dvpo issue is is very dear to my heart and um and I and I guess when when I see the way the when looking through the the power points and looking at the way the staffing goes I see that I see the domestic violence prevention officer as not being lost first but being lost last I think the chief new yaran has been working very very hard to retain that role um so it's it's not like you know it's not like it's a it's a role it's getting thrown away to make everybody afraid he's he's he's worked very hard to try to preserve it and if he doesn't preserve it it's because that that officer needs to needs to cover a shift and I I can't argue with that kind of decision I don't know the answer to that but but um but I I don't I think that I I think the way the way I've read the files um that number 74 is just very risky for this particular role um in terms of in terms of how it happens and that's that was that's really my concern about this um because as it stands without changing the the cap or the floor of the ceiling um it's you know it's it's a it's a decision that's going to be made rather than something nobody can provide assurance that such a critical role in our community and it's and I you can correct me because I I I don't completely understand it but I I think it's a role that transcends transcends race it transcends class it transcends it even transcends gender and and so it's it's absolutely critical for our community to have somebody doing that work that's you know that's where that's where I get concerned about the decisions that the city council has made yeah go ahead great and not to get into a back and forth but I I hear you I agree um I was really hoping I mean the number the last number that the city council talked about was 79 um which I think was you know like a compromise in a lot of ways um but um I think that's you know I think that's a place that some constituents would really like to get to and I don't think that's off the table um the other part on the rhetoric I I apologize I mostly I clearly spent a lot more time with the mayor than I do with the police chief and so sometimes things are said that are political that aren't necessarily a plan and I absorb a lot of that so if I misspoke on chief mirad's intentions or behalf I I am sorry um yeah and I'll leave it at those two those two things yeah Jack go ahead yeah I mean and I think it's important too I really appreciate Jonathan your your consistent advocacy on this um and I think this is a completely dynamic and an ongoing process so we need to I completely agree with you about trying to retain that position in fact I think what we're doing is building up a lot more positions that we do feel will be a lot more responsive to to critical needs in the community and and more effective at supporting folks than sort of traditional policing which has been made clear um is failing for a lot of folks including um we've had several people call in and share experiences that they've had with domestic violence and the ways in which the current policing system has failed them within that and so I think um we just have to keep leaning in and keep trying to forge this path forward um you know Monday was a big step but it's certainly just an ever-evolving and and continuous effort that we're all um engaged in so so we should we should work together to try to figure out you know that aspect as well as all the other intertwined aspects that that we're dealing with here and I think one step that we didn't actually mention as well that we took Monday that was really important is we um executed or authorized a contract for um a really robust analysis of public safety in Burlington that will include a large public engagement process and also an evaluation of the department and the community's safety needs and so when that comes back in April that'll be another really critical moment I think for the city to really have um just yeah a much more robust set of data and information and community input to take that next step as well um so I'll just say that yeah go ahead Soraya sorry last thing Elle's switch to something that um Carol talked about which is um um yeah I'm hoping next time around I won't be um chairing a joint committee anymore but um I do think that um some work around changing the council rules and other things just to give the NPAs more authority and power and find ways to empower them and have more of the decision-making I'm I'm really excited to turn to looking at some of the governance things instead um over the next year and so hopefully that'll be something that we can work on Carol um I'm just wondering if as part of the assessment that's being done does it make sense is it possible for the NPAs to help facilitate some of that information gathering and conversation it just I assume that that you know the NPAs are part of that dynamic but I don't know that so yeah so there's two different assessments one of them is more um one so they're split into two assessments that are led by two different consultants and I have two percent battery left so if I die I'm so sorry um there's the first one which is just a community facilitation process and so the first the first thing we'll talk to you's just all of the kind of NGOs and a few different departments that are involved in public safety and then the second round we're hoping to have a broader outreach which I think the NPAs will kind of be the big touch point for that so um that's its own contract and that contract is then supposed to inform the second contract which is the Burlington Police Department assessment so they're supposed to like more at call volume and staffing and how it related to kind of what people want to see and where the gaps are between those two things and how the city should fill them as a whole so yes absolutely um not that assessment but the one that we already are currently doing okay thank you any final questions for the counselors or any final comments from the counselors as well okay I don't see any so we can move on to Kathy who will be presenting on the school budget I believe in giving updates so Tom can you share the presentation I gave you is Tom there on yeah I'm still here I oh I've got to find it I don't think I have that email up I'm gonna go find it well I mean if if it's not there there hasn't really been any huge changes since last month when Aiden gave you the presentation it's pretty much that same presentation over again except for that we have the possibility now because there's more money coming in through the state but they haven't given us an exact amount so we are now at 6.88 percent is what that what the budget figure will be on on the ballot probably by the time people get bills that will have come through the the the money from the state and that will be lower but we don't have any idea from the state how much is coming so as a result it's still at 6.88 percent increase which was what you all saw on the presentation last time around with Aiden and I you know so what the the end result will be we have I mean I can go through all this but it's far easier if you're seeing the presentation in front of you I can give you the ballot language which is shall the voters of the school district approve a school board to expend 95 million 105 thousand which is the amount the school board has determined to be necessary for ensuing physical year it is estimated that this proposed budget if approved will result in educational spending of 17 million six um 17,069.13 percent equalized per pupil this projected spending per equalized pupil is 0.89 percent higher than spending for current year and that most of that spending for this year which essentially comes out to 6.88 percent is personnel things that mostly the school board has no say over one way or the other it is it is the money we're getting from the state and and we have only increased 120 thousand for the support of multilingual liaison family to help families multilingual liaisons work only the nine months of the school year and we have increased it so that they will work all summer because the students doing summer programs and also preparing to go into school need these liaisons to translate for the families during the summer and it's mostly about education it's not that they're doing anything other than that and also we begin this is the end of our past strategic plan we are beginning a new strategic plan in the in the spring and that is a hundred thousand dollars in there that we've added to do to allow for limited implementation of some priority actions identified during the process the planning process but those are the only two increases other than personnel increases and literally healthcare and those things but we have we have found over a million dollars in savings that we have put there originally that tax percentage was supposed to be somewhere around 13 percent and we have through money from coveted and monies that we saved over the year we have cut it down to the 6.88 percent so that pretty much as if it is the same presentation as as um Aidan gave you last month it will only hopefully be less than that by the time you get your tax bills great thank you does anyone have any questions on that Karen feel free to go hi Kathy with um thank you for that with um the I mean you know and it's a long shot that the development downtown will be done in time that there is a tip financing but if there is to financing my understanding is that because we're using tax money that would have been going some of it's to being taken from the education fund is what I understand and like a lot 70 percent or something or what uh I I don't know the exact percentage but across the country where these tiff monies have been used they states have banned them or stopped using them because it was the fact that it was taking funds away from the schools now I've asked I've asked the mayor and I've asked our city councilors a bunch of times that were pushing the tiff I said to them why has everyone else tell me how this does not hurt schools and none of them have come back to me with anything telling me or explaining to me how this doesn't hurt schools so as far as I'm concerned across the country all the studies done on tiff have showed that they have hurt schools that schools have not gotten the amounts of tax dollars they needed in those tiff zones because we're we're adding more housing and and then there's not the taxes there to pay for the schooling of the children that live in them so right and so I'm from California and they have been outlawed there for quite some time and that's why but I don't really know how to find out much information about it except for that you're right there are a lot of states that have outlawed it so maybe our legislators or I don't know but anyway I think it's an important thing because education is constantly you know being underfunded and and then you know this be interesting maybe you know if anybody knows about it and can let me know off the meeting that'd be great thank you I do know um if you watch house commerce then they this is kind of like one of the main focal points that they've been working on I just know it because like I I work with the Chamber of Commerce for an internship and so I have the privilege of watching all those meetings so it may be worth reaching out I know Rep Mulvaney Sannick is on the committee like Burlington Rep so maybe reaching out to them for more information but I actually had a I don't know if you'll know the answer to it but when they're talking about TIF funding for this project did they say like what like how many years the turnaround would be for schools to see benefit I know it's generally like 40 years or like something insane but do they talk about that in terms of Burlington no no okay well I mean I never got any to my questions I never got any answers they all kept saying to me no it doesn't hurt schools I said yes it does and please explain to me how it doesn't then if you think it doesn't hurt schools then explain to me how it doesn't and I never from anyone was given the explanation and I literally have asked at least five people the mayor twice but I haven't he's never been able to explain how it doesn't hurt schools yeah so I think it's you're talking about the payback time Hannah I think it's 20 years or 25 years so the problem is all the people coming up you know it's it's a long time yeah no I know in some projects in Vermont like it's been it could be 40 years before they like schools and and like property owners see a turnaround it's definitely like a long process for more I don't know a ton about it but from what I could tell it it's very complicated I'm sorry you haven't gotten any answers about that does anyone else have any final questions yeah this is Tom I do have that I did find that email and I can show page unless it's too late well it's probably too late but at least if you have them there's one a one that I sent you that was just the one pager and the other is the presentation but it's best probably if anyone would like the information that we send them out the one pager that would probably be the easiest thing and I'm going to put it on front porch forum tomorrow so everybody who wants it should actually look on front porch forum and I'll send it out through that okay I've the link that you sent me I'll add to the minutes oh so people will get it that way as well okay is this the one pager because I sent you two um yeah one it's uh one pager yep yeah okay okay but I have a question as well that I I just wanted clarification on the issue that the tiff impact to schools is that um because school funding will be cut or because we'll have more apartments and more kids um with that we'll have to find additional funding to educate no if they were paying their normal property taxes back that would cover them but in the tiff zone we have given them a they don't pay taxes the personal people do but the the corporation is given all these um oh god what do you want to call it tax write-offs in order to build those streets through or whatever it is that they're going to do with the tiff money and that is what is detrimental to the schools because we are not getting the amount of taxes from those properties for the amount of time that that tiff zone is active and I'm probably not a great one to explain that but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say yeah I hear I hear you it sounds like um that the money we would normally get from those properties during the tiff period we're not going to get and so we or you're not going to get all of it you'll get some of it but not all of it okay okay thank you now we're going on to candidate presentations so that's jack and khaki um I we're planning on doing that until 8 20 so whoever wants to start and then I figure we'll format it just you rock and then if anyone has any questions if you're both okay with that they can just ask um but whoever wants to start off is fine jack you can start okay all right great yeah well I don't I don't know exactly the format is our are we leaving time for questions or are we just speaking Hannah um carol did we this I only says candidate presentation but I think we should have enough time but I'm looking to other steering committee members because I yeah we I think we were hoping that um jack that you could split your time between presentation and um question yeah yeah no I definitely would like would prefer to do that and leave time um the tiff yeah I don't think anyone can really explain tiff Kathy so don't worry about it I I still am struggling to fully understand it to be honest and I've I had a really helpful sit down meeting with the former CAO where we spent like an hour going through the various types of tiff and the different tiff districts and the different ways in which it's used and it's incredibly complicated it's also really it's in particularly it's hard to explain even more so than it is to understand I would say so um but yeah um thanks for the opportunity to to talk a little bit about my candidacy and and my campaign um it's a lot different than last time you know running on a pose and and running for reelection versus being a newcomer and and running in a competitive race um but I am I'm definitely excited and energetic to to to serve another term um and I I've really tried to focus a lot during my time on council um on the climate crisis and obviously I've worked on a lot of other issues pretty intensely but whenever I can I try to bring a focus back to that issue because that's the issue that um concerns me the most above all and I feel that um we are making progress as a community which is great I think we're doing some innovative things and there's a lot of opportunity in Burlington that doesn't exist in other communities to really play a leadership role on the climate crisis um and so I'm simultaneously I guess um proud of the work that we've done and that we're doing and and optimistic but also also feel like you know we do need to be pushing a lot harder in order to truly meet our goals and to really um meet what the climate science is is telling us that we have to do in terms of quickly decarbonizing and quickly getting off of fossil fuels so I've I focused on you know within that heating and transportation are the two biggest areas in in Burlington um that are are creating emissions transportation's number one um I focused on that on a number of different fronts whether that's these these street changes that are um controversial but I think really important you know Colchester Avenue I would say was pretty dramatically um improved in terms of safety in terms of accessibility for different types of users and in terms of really starting to shift away from all of our public infrastructure or not all most of our public infrastructure and resources going towards the personal automobile I think you know we're starting to shift a little bit away from that which I think is really critical in terms of transforming our transportation sector so Colchester Avenue you know we made some changes in 2019 we're looking at additional changes that I think would really take that to the next level when you ski avenue is a really key corridor from north to south in the city where we've moved some I think great changes downtown and we're looking at the old north end now and moving that forward but this is we're trying to create this network so that a lot more people can feel comfortable on bikes and I've gotten to see cities where that is the case it really makes a big difference if you can step the infrastructure up you truly can have a huge shift in behavior and in how people move around and really reduce the impact on the climate and also save money for folks and improve safety and reduce fatalities and injuries on the road so that's been a big focus for me on transportation as well on transportation dealing with sort of transportation demand management so you know buildings and employers and basically locations that bring a lot of people to and from that location they can play an active role in terms of how folks get to and from their location if they build a massive parking lot and it's free probably most people will drive to that location but if they have no parking or they charge a huge amount for parking and they have great bike facilities and you know storage for their residents and repair stands and there's a bus stop right there they have a car share pod on site it makes a huge difference so we've been able to make progress on that front with some completely new requirements for new buildings so those are a few things on transportation and then I think I talked a lot earlier about buildings and how we're trying to decarbonize buildings and later tonight we'll be talking more about the the charter change which I think would be sort of the single biggest thing we could do to allow the city to play an active role in getting buildings off of fossil fuels in Burlington so that's that's a bit about climate and kind of the focus and the work that I've tried to bring but I want to even double down and lean in you know even more on that going forward and other issues that I focused on has been obviously on policing and racial justice and public safety that's just been a huge issue that the council has grappled with really heavily these past couple years and I've stepped into that work a lot and as I said earlier been really grateful to have Zariah as a real leader on that to be able to collaborate and work with and and I think we're starting to see some really important progress and change in that area as well I think on housing it's been hard to we were just talking about it earlier and I think we do need to have this fuller conversation at the NPA it's been a bit of a struggle there's a couple initiatives that I've tried to sort of champion and push on the housing front and it's been a continuous challenge I think for a variety of reasons but I do think we need to better resource code enforcement and we need to really take a much harder stand as I think some of y'all have said in terms of landlords like I've noticed a lot in a lot of the public processes and meetings there's definitely sort of you know a power dynamic and I think there's an outsize influence of property owners who make up a pretty small percentage of Burlington residents but do tend to have an outside size influence in the process in my experience versus renters who make up a little bit over 60 of the community and and I think tend to often you know not have the same voice or weight in a lot of these issues so it's it's a deep challenge and I do think we need to lean in a lot harder as a city in terms of this and I really appreciate you know the focus and energy that particularly you all and and you know this NPA brings to it and I think I would really look forward to trying to grapple harder with you all on that and lean into that more especially coming in you know with coming out of this election season and you know the beginning of a new mayoral term no matter who that is that takes office you know we all need to push that whichever administration that is it needs to be different it needs to be a new tone on the issue of housing and especially rental housing um I think I'm coming up on five minutes so maybe what I'll do at this point is well I guess one more thing I'll just mention is rank choice voting which is coming up um which terry baritius is here and is going to speak to but that's an issue that I have worked on a lot I think Zariah mentioned sort of these structural reforms to our local democracy one of them being the NPAs and the role that the NPA can play I agree with trying to give more voice and more power to the NPAs um there's other structural reforms I think one of them is around how we do elections in burlington and I've worked really hard to advance the issue of rank choice voting and I'm excited to see it on the ballot um and I feel that this this mayoral election is sort of another reminder of how our current system is flawed because you have six or seven candidates for mayor but really I think it's very it's kind of commonly understood that there's really only two or three of those candidates that has a shot at winning I think that's the common perception in the community and so if you support one of these minor candidates in the race what do you do as a voter you know you have to make that decision do I vote for who I want one of these minor candidates or am I gonna vote strategically and I think we're so used to that calculus that we kind of just take it as normal but it really doesn't have to be that way we can we can have a voting system where you can truly just vote for who you actually want and you don't have to use these strategies of well who's the frontrunner and do I need to prevent the worst person by voting for the runner up all these calculations it doesn't have to to be that way so um that's been an issue I've worked on and I think there's a lot of other structural issues with with our local government that we can improve upon as well um so yeah I'd love to kind of just open it up and hear people's thoughts and questions and yeah so I see Tom has their hand raised so go ahead yeah Jack is Tom how you talk about housing can you define what the housing challenges or what what things are not working you said that we need to engage but you didn't really say well this isn't working or that isn't working what is it that's that's broke yeah I think it's it's multifaceted I mean one of the biggest challenges I think there's broad consensus around the fact that um it's a constrained housing market just the other night we were talking about Airbnb regulation which I've been in a joint committee working on for um a really long time we've had like 12 meetings we're really kind of struggling to to to sort out that policy but part of why it's hard is because um this market is so constrained there's so little um vacancy in terms of well overall but specifically within the rental market there's very little vacancy so it's an unstable market and an unhealthy market. Erhard Monkey who's often attends these meetings and had called in last night was saying that really for kind of a healthy balance of a rental market you'd want to see you know four or five percent they can see we've kind of inched our way up in Burlington um I think we're I think we're getting close to maybe two one and a half or two percent but that's still really it's really far from where we would need to be and so what happens is we hear you know I hear these stories all the time and I to some extent lived it myself as a renter is that the options are so limited the price is so high and if you if you're able to find something um if you want to live in Burlington as a renter you have to just take what's there and oftentimes that means either you're paying a whole lot a month for rent and for utilities and or um the quality is really poor um of rental housing so I think there's a real imbalance especially in the rental market but really throughout the entire housing market not just rental market it's really constrained and therefore really expensive and and hard to find quality housing that people can afford to live in and striving people out of our community constantly um so from a high level I think that's the biggest issue then we have these other issues with just um sort of property relationships and quality of housing that is very related to that issue but also requires this additional sort of enforcement piece and the city being more proactive on um regulating you know rental properties so it's it's related but it's it's also somewhat distinct thank you um then we'll go to Karen I apologize I know you had your hand raised first um so you can go and then I believe Angie just raised their hand after Karen thank you um thank you Jack actually I really appreciate your little updates or your reports of the council meetings that's really been a nice um addition that we've never had that in the 40 years that I've well however many years we've had front porch forum certainly not 40 but anyway I really appreciate that and I know some of these meetings are long and tiring and anyway I appreciate you do that with the housing I think you know Tom if you just start walking I mean I walk all the time and I just am astounded at the condition um of places and it's it's really sad to me and I talk to a lot of students places are really dirty places are people can't shut their windows people don't have storm windows there's just so many places and I really I love this idea of cracking down on landlords and getting them to move and basically on Henry Street we have done that we had some really bad um bad players in the rental market and just the pressure of us calling the landlords got them to leave you know they sold and we have we have homeowners there now but we we still have I'd say 20 percent of the housing is rental on my street but they're all very um responsible landlords they they do not just figure oh I live wherever and you know it's really more out of state I'm out of the city landlords I feel but another thing and I have I did look into this this particular property in ward one that I did complain about um I pay 140 percent more for my building and I pay 75 percent more for my land than this particular property on Pearl Street so I think we need to and it isn't on income I mean I I looked into that because Jonathan asked me that I'm just talking about square footage and so I own a duplex on North Willard Street so I'm comparing my rental property with another rental property so in a way I feel like I'm being punished because I do maintain my rental property as well as my own home I take a lot of pride in it and I really my tenants have been there a long time I mean I think that's how it should be I don't think it should be these cash cows that people don't put any money back on their properties and that's really what's happened in Burlington and I think Burlington has allowed that to happen and if we could get some kind of system that we really help people accountable it's a business they should be proud and they should be safe um then maybe we would drive some of these landlords out and we would have homes for our own kids to buy you know I mean I think that's the biggest thing it's really 60 percent rental seems like a really high percentage to me but anyway I know you're gonna put a lot of energy in that but I do appreciate appreciate that and I I see that as one of the biggest problems for Burlington I have three adult children and two of them have moved um and the other is a renter you know it's just it's really hard to to buy homes in this place unless you're old like me and we we hardly paid anything for our house on Henry Street it's embarrassing compared to what they sell for now but anyway thank you definitely and I'm cutting into Kathy's time so I'll just maybe I'll just wrap up at this point but yeah I know thank you both for that and I it's not that there's nothing happening you know I think this weatherization would actually be really huge on this issue requiring landlords to weatherize and meet energy efficiency standards would get at a lot of the problem in terms of that and the just cause eviction proposal that's on the ballot I think is is big as well for kind of helping shift this power dynamic and helping um you know make make life a little bit easier and more stable for for tenants and renters in the city um but but so those are big but we just have so long to get so much further to go and and so much harder that we need to push to address this um and I guess I'll just close by saying um you know I well first of all I really appreciate the mpa and I think especially tonight was just a good reminder of how valuable it is for bringing us together to be able to discuss these issues and and feel that sense of community and neighborhood belonging I can't really imagine kind of what it would be like without the npa I think it's just so critical and thanks to those of you who really keep it running and keep it strong and yeah I I think as a counselor I I have really strong values that I hold and I really fight hard and push hard for those values and you know folks may or may not agree on many of the issues but one thing that I really really try to do is just always be present always work hard and always communicate with you all where I stand like I want you to even if you don't agree I want you to know exactly where I stand and why I'm doing what I'm doing and and sort of what I'm pushing for that's the most important thing to me because we're definitely not always going to agree on these really tough issues um but I think my job is to make sure that that you know what I'm all about and how I'm representing you and that we have an open line of communication always and so I'll continue to really strive for that and I did put Angie in the speaking order so I just want to make sure if you still had a question you had the opportunity yes I I can be very brief because Kathy is my neighbor and I don't want to hold her up oh I'm sorry Angie I didn't mean to cut you out that's okay that's okay first of all jack I want to second or third or fourth the opinion of many people who has spoken tonight thanking you for your responsiveness to your constituents and that you understand that we may not know what is going on if you didn't tell us there aren't necessarily other resources unless we go to meetings all the time so I just want to say I really appreciate that you do that regular recording and I also want to say I think that your writing skills are very good I really enjoy what it is I read that you have written I understand a lot more about a subject after I've read what you've had to say but that wasn't my question that was just a compliment well I appreciate that thank you and yeah let's I don't want to cut your question off I'm sorry and I'm sorry Kathy too for holding you up as well so I can make this quick and it's less a question than an expression of frustration about housing in the city um 60 percent of our housing is for renters and I don't know what percentage is of students but there are a lot of students who live in housing and there are a lot of big landlords who cater to those students and understands that students want to live off campus I understand that but a reason they want to off campus is that campus housing is so expensive it's so expensive and so my complaint is basically that I never really hear the city talk about let's let's work together with the university to solve some of the housing problems that we have I mean what can the university do to ease the housing crunch in our city is it that they could reduce the price of their housing create more housing I don't know what it is but what I'm finding lacking is a conversation an ongoing conversation and an expectation that the university will be part of this community and not hold itself aside and that's what I feel like's happened like happens and I haven't seen the the city push the university in any way for any accountability in that way so that's what I I completely agree and and we do need to push harder and it needs to be it needs to be a full push with the administration and the council in order to be effective with the university and so again I think going back to the full housing issue whatever this next administration is I want to I want to get in with them right away and our NPA as well and just really push like this has to be more of a focus from the administration because I agree with you that I think UVM cannon should really do a lot more and I've encountered a lot of resistance there and and want to want to lean into that a lot harder thank you jack and now Kathy you can go thank you for being patient okay so don't worry you didn't it didn't bother me that you were taking extra time I I'm Kathy all well I've been this ward one and eight or East District School Commissioner for the past four and a half years and I live in Ward one across the street from Angie and Jonathan and I'm a retired social worker I worked mostly with youth in this city both at King Street and it's our whole book I started the new North End Hughes Center out in the Miller Center and ran started and ran then the after-school program at Hunt and the summer program for all of middle schoolers both Hunt and Edmonds and we also joined brought Winooski middle schoolers into that in the last couple of years that I was there so on the school board I am co-chair of the curriculum and personnel committee and curriculum I think has always been kind of the area of the school board work that I really love because it is for me the raison d'etre that we're there I mean if we're not teaching the kids and making sure that they're getting really good curriculum income and and impoverished kids and I really do feel that we need to make sure that they get good basic education we can't have kids in third grade not reading at third grade level and then going on if they haven't read by third grade level they need intensive intervention if we make sure that that the beginnings pre-k through third grade they have gotten good reading writing writing fanatics so that they have a basis that they work on so we have asked that they after looking at the scores that now we've had pre-k come to us and report and I must say we were very impressed with our pre-k staff and what is taught in our pre-k is across this district and in many of the high quality child care programs in the city but our biggest problem is that there's still a large number of children coming into kindergarten in our public schools that have not been through pre-k or high you know high quality preschool programs and so they come at a deficit and that is really a problem and so it's for us more important that we then look at k through three and how those children are being taught to read and do literacy and those we're just starting into k through three this next few months as well as looking then also in this summer spring and into summer and fall at the math curriculum in the district on personnel we are looking more into how to hire and keep more people of color in our district we want our teaching staff to mirror our student body and we have a long way to go to do that so their you know personnel personnel office has been working hard taking courses on how to get more people of color into our schools as teachers and what to do then to retain them because it's not only getting them as teachers because there's plenty out there it's just they're not here in Vermont and we need to find them attract them and then do our work to really keep them and the retention is a problem so those things are what we're working on on on personnel I have also because this has bothered me for many years I was on the school board in the 90s and I am now you know back four and a half years with a 20-year interval there and 20 years ago we passed Act 60 and it became very it was lauded as this wonderful progressive school education funding bill but it was very clear to me within a few years of Act 60 going into being that we were getting less money and it we were not the the weights that were being used were not correct for Burlington for Winooski and in turn I was sure for many rural poor areas of the state so this I guess the legislature finally after many of us constantly harping at them that they had to do something about the weighting they finally did a study that was done in 2019 and it was done by UVM Rutgers and the American Institute of Research and it was given for the legislature in that study they showed that we are woefully underfunding our children living in poverty our ELL and children in rural small schools in this state and so now we are pushing a 10 school boards across the state have gotten together to form a coalition to push the legislature by hiring a lobbying group to go in and work with us to push the legislature to deal with this it came up right before COVID hit and then this bill and then it kind of laid dormant for all of that and now they're talking about a three-year phase in of these weights and that bothers me immensely because our children have been waiting for 20 years to be correctly funded for their education and we as a district have not been able to afford what we really need to to support all of those children and now the legislature is talking about making us wait three years or their phase in is three years phase in and then I don't know one bill is asking that it actually gets sent to the to the Department of Ed and they are going to work on that afterwards but I don't feel that it's correct that our children have waited 20 years and all the poor kids across the state and here we are now asking them to wait three more years while the more you know the wealthier school districts can learn to have to pay more on taxes so they they're going to phase it in so it's not such a big problem for them and our kids get to wait even longer and what irritates me even more about these bills is that the the biggest weight is poverty and that they want to put in the third year of the waiting so I will be back with you to get you all everyone on this call to please help us by writing to our legislatures and really pushing to enact this immediately because I don't think that this is something that we can just sit on and let take effect when when we are you know when they so decide and I I don't know I'm I'm pretty as you can tell hot and bothered about this I have been for a long time and now when I see that it's going to go through this legislative I don't know what I want to call it but that it goes so slowly and that nothing can be worked on immediately just irritates me all the more because I then watch and see also how our kids are reading etc and I know if we had more specialists and they're working with them their reading would be at grade level so that's it I you know for right now those are the things I've been working on I mean I think we should all know that educational spending and how we wait we as a state and I think this surprised me the most we sit between Mississippi who's above us and Tennessee who is below us and I you know we Vermont I find that appalling and I just want to say to all of you if these weights were putting correctly Burlington children would get 17 percent more increase or a 17 percent increase in our school allotment per pupil and when new ski would get 39 percent and I I just I find it appalling I'm sorry but I do and I can't help but say this so it is something we all have to work on and we all have to push because we are not going to give our kids equitable education with the weights that we're living with now and I would ask you all for your vote even though I'm also not having anyone running against me so thank you okay thank you I want to be mindful of our time but I see Tom has their hand raised so maybe that will be the one question and then everyone has Jack and Kathy's emails that I'm sure they would be having you following up and asking more questions and so Tom and then we'll go to Terry for ranked choice voting yeah hi Kathy just a quick question the legislature's has is considering changing the homestead tax from being a strict property tax to an income tax is that going to help our district or is that going to hurt I I mean I'm not really sure at this moment that I'm hoping they'll take up this waiting before they ever take up that I haven't looked into that I have to say well enough to know exactly is it going to help or hurt but I if I remember rightly the waiting is far more important this is far more funding we will get for education through putting those correct weights through and not waiting till they have done the the um oh god what do you call it the property tax thing because I'm not property tax versus income tax because I'm not sure what that means for Burlington and I do know what the weights mean but sorry I can't answer it right now oh that's okay thanks okay great now Terry thank you for joining us and thank you to all of our presenters for being patient with the time I yeah I'll make this shorter than I had intended just to try and help catch us up on the schedule and I'll leave time for some questions um so I'm here to talk about rank choice voting first off it's sometimes called rank choice voting sometimes instant runoff voting political scientists call it stv single transferable vote uh the problem that it's intended to address is the issue of if you have more than two candidates in a race you can have split majorities you can have quote-unquote spoilers there's dynamics with a plurality election which is what we have in most of the United States and in the Burlington mayors race um with a plurality election you can have a candidate that a large majority of voters think is the worst possible candidate being declared the winner with you know 41 percent of the vote even if 59 percent of the voters think that is the worst candidate possible that is one of the most undemocratic nature of our voting system and it's worth noting that well most Americans they're only familiar with one voting system because that's what they've used their whole lives the United States is an outlier there are there are very few countries that use the system like we do most countries for electing a legislative body they use some sort of proportional representation give all the political interests all the parties and persuasions uh proportionate share of seats they're electing a single person like a mayor or governor they use a majority voting system usually the most common one is a runoff election nobody gets more than 50 percent they simply have another election and Burlington has used runoffs and currently for the mayors race the threshold is if you don't get at least 40 percent of the vote uh then there's a runoff election so it's like 32 percent versus 31 percent versus 12 percent etc etc you'd have a runoff election but what rank choice voting does is it combines a runoff election and a regular election into a single election that's all it does it simply says rather than holding a whole new election which means that the voters have to turn out twice it has to cost an extra the taxpayers extra money for running an additional election all the candidates have to scurry around and raise money giving yet another advantage to the candidate who has the quickest access to big money and most fundamentally runoff elections typically have much lower voter turnout there have been many elections in the united states some states do do use runoff elections regularly and often in the runoff election the person who wins gets fewer votes in the runoff election and their opponent got in the first round because the voter participation dropped so sharply and that's also been true in Burlington we've had runoff elections for city council and other races um and the voter turnout does plummet so all the ranked choice voting or instant runoff voting does is say to the voter when you come to the vote give your first preference your first choice to your favorite candidate and in case nobody gets a majority and we have to have a runoff rather than calling you back to the polls simply right now put a two mark the second choice next to your second preference candidate and if that person also doesn't make in into the runoff well that's why we let you rank your third choice and your fourth choice as many choices as you want so that your vote will count in the runoff if you care to have it if you care to participate of course some voters may not rank additional choices it's the same as staying home at a runoff election saying i'm not going to bother to go again now Burlington did use instant runoff voting for a couple of elections back in the early 2000s 2006 2009 and it worked very well we had over 99.9 percent of the ballots were valid voters were not confused at all there were we had we set up stations when voters came to polls if they had any questions about the ranked choice ballot about how to use it there was a person whose sole task was to help them understand how to work ballot by midday they had been been sent home in almost every single ward because nobody had any questions because the voter education had been adequate and everybody understood how to use the ballot and in fact there were more spoiled ballots in the non-irv race because if people voted for two people in like the like the city council race their vote would be thrown out because you can't divide the vote whereas in the the irv race from there there were even fewer spoiled ballots than in the city council race so it worked very well but why was it repealed in Burlington there's a lot of arguments for why it was the campaign against it was initiated by people like Kurt Wright and various Republicans who argue that they should voting should be made simple that it was too complicated and that most of the news media at the time said the reason was because Mayor Bob Kiss was under attack for a financial scandal with the Burlington telecom and a lot of people said this is sort of like revenge against Bob Kiss because he had been elected in the last election using instant runoff voting and so some people argued that the Republicans were using it disingenuously to because they didn't want irv because they didn't think they could win a majority of the vote from the mayor's office and the best way to get a mayor as a Republican was to reduce the threshold down to 40% because maybe they could do that now I don't know if that's what what their motivation was but the the argument was that voting needed to be simple now as I think Jack mentioned the fact is that while it's simple to count the plurality election it's not simple to vote in one because if there's more than two candidates you have to do the calculus let's see I like this person but maybe my neighbor says no I vote for them I'm actually helping the candidate I like the least and so there's all that dynamic which is very complicated especially if there's not accurate polling to show where the candidates stand and you have to guess many people feel like they wasted their vote because they didn't get the chance to indicate who their second choice was so it's a controversial issue but it's worth noting another objection to using the rank choice voting method there's one follow out in the north end Robert Bristol Johnson who's who's got a pet project he's got a voting system that he's embedded it is a variation on a system called condorsay voting that basically you do pairwise comparison of all the candidates and say who would win in a pairwise head to head race against all these people and he has said that rank choice voting does not necessarily elect that person and therefore we shouldn't reform the system even though he acknowledges that our current system is far worse than instant runoff voting he doesn't think instant runoff voting is good enough and he has his preferred system the difficulty is that his condorsay voting method has never been used by any government election anywhere in the world there's no voting machine companies that make voting machines that are currently able to accommodate it whereas rank choice voting has been used for over a century by millions and millions of voters all over the world and Australia they've been using it since the 1800s and they use it in the UK for certain elections in Ireland it's used universally so it's got a long track record it works well in the United States, San Francisco, Minneapolis, New York City recently adopted the entire state of Maine uses it and Portland, Maine which has been using it for mayor just recently decided to use it for all their city elections Burlington is the outlier it's like one of the only places that tried it and got rid of it and quite frankly from my perspective it was because it was the only way people could show their disdain for bob kiss during the Burlington telecom financial scandal um so I mean I have my opinions which you may have easily been able to figure out from this I'm supposed to be offering a neutral perspective but it's really hard for me to to be neutral because I think it is such a superior system however it does cost more money because you do have to do an extra layer of tabulation you have to gather all the information at the city hall you cannot just take the results from each of the wards and add it together and know who won you can do it as a hand count we did do a recount so it's possible to do it as a hand count but normally we use a computer so there are challenges to using it there's a new voter education campaign that is required you have people ready for it so it's not simple to implement initially but once you're doing it Burlington did a very excellent job in 2006 and 2009 and it worked very well so I would stop there and see if there's questions I guess if there's time yeah does anyone have any questions just indicate with the hand raise function Jack just a very quick um clarification too is that the ballot measure before you is would implement or is to implement rank choice voting for specifically city council elections just wanted to clarify that it's for mayor and city council is it or is it only city council only city council there was an initial proposal that was vetoed by the mayor that included mayoral school commission and council but this proposal that was not vetoed is just for city council I only read the the earlier version so I wasn't even aware of that okay and now Dave that was my question as well is what are the positions and so just city council at this point yeah this this this question before you is do we want to use this system um for city council elections which um yeah there was a whole sort of debate and process that led to that point and that being the question before you um I think it is worth noting that city council races have gone to run off more than mayoral that was one of the arguments why to do it this way um but also the other proposal was vetoed so that's another reason why you know this was a different proposal I had shared a uh a pdf of a of a Burlington ballot rank choice ballot I don't know if somebody on this call has that on their computer and can just post it for a moment so people can see the pdf it's not essential but um while people are asking questions give me one second and I can write it up okay um it's called the ward three actual ballot or something like that yeah and uh the the mayor's race is the one on the left that in this in 2006 this ballot it was only the mayor's race so this proposal is to say only city council races but that's what a rank choice ballot looks like uh you indicate a fill in the number one oval next to your favorite candidate you have the option of indicating a second third and fourth choice in the next columns great any final questions seeing no hand raised thank you terry for that um and now we will go on to thermal energies so jack bill ward and darin are here I don't know how you all are planning on speaking to it but whoever wants to talk first uh you all should have the ability to to speak and turn on your cameras and share screen great well thanks for giving us the opportunity to speak to it and thanks for bill and darin for coming for a late night meeting um as you all often do um so I think I'll defer to you all darin and bill did you want to go first with sort of the informational I think most of the time I was gonna as we said leave to you all um I was just gonna give a quick summary of my perspective on it but do you all want to lay it out first or should I kick kick things off would defer to you and then we can follow afterwards okay great yeah I'll just tee it up and then let you all explain and um so this is yeah this is a proposal that um was a very much you know bipartisan collaboration that led to this ballot measure around regulating thermal energy in buildings in burlington it came out of the the ordinance committee process which Zariah and I are both on the ordinance committee um and the mayor was quoted in in seven days a seven days article on this issue today and I really I really agree with the mayor in his quote which is basically the fundamental question that we're asking is do we want the city to play an active role in decarbonizing buildings that's really um what the question is it's an authorizing ballot question to give the city um more legal authority to do that and I would argue that that's really critical if if we really want to meet we've set very strong goals for getting off of fossil fuels um by 2030 I I would argue that we can't meet those goals without um the city playing an active role and so I'm a strong proponent of this ballot measure and worked hard with a lot of folks to kind of put it together and um yeah I hope that you all will consider supporting it and Bill and Darren are a really great resource on this the details the specifics and what what this could mean for burlington and we're luck you know I very much appreciate that they're willing to volunteer their time tonight and you know if you have follow-up questions I'm sure they'd be happy to or I'd also be happy to to speak more on it thanks Councillor Hansen um hi everybody I'm Darren Springer general manager with Burlington Electric uh joined by my colleague Bill Ward who's the director of permitting and inspections and from the Burlington Electric side we're kind of engaged on this from an energy policy and technical resource standpoint uh bill's department is really regulation and enforcement and and this item if it was enacted the the regulations that would flow from it would really be managed by Bill and his team um I just wanted to speak a little to the kind of the genesis of it we had been in 2019 we had issued a net zero energy roadmap which you can read on our website burlingtonelectric.com slash nz e and it called for incentives and policies to help us move in the direction of net zero energy which means not only being 100 renewable for electricity which we already are but moving in that direction for not only the thermal heating sector but also ground transportation as well and Burlington Electric has launched dozens of initiatives incentives including our green stimulus program to help uh burlingtonians access these uh net zero technologies like heat pumps and electric vehicles electric bikes electric buses um but the city council as well had asked us my my department bill's department and uh the office of planning to examine uh policies really specifically around new buildings making sure they're compatible uh with the net zero goals and uh this discussion eventually led to a proposal in the fall um I believe you can you can read it on the mayor's website uh it's a press release in the October time frame uh that was aiming at having new buildings either uh heat with renewable resources or uh have a carbon fee or assessment uh that would encourage them to become more efficient over time and the city in examining that learned that there was not adequate authority in the city charter for that proposal to move forward as it was written and that's I think where this where this charter change item uh comes in and just a couple things I just want to address uh because I I've heard I've been a part of a few discussions about this I think there are some misconceptions out there that I want to address one of which is uh people talk about that uh the charter change would require people to you know rip out their existing heating system and put in old resistance electric heat that is factually not true uh nobody wants to go back to the resistance heat that was in buildings in the 70s and 80s uh in Burlington uh my home here in the new north end has the old thermostats uh that used to work for the old resistance heat and that was torn out um what we're talking about with renewable heating is modern efficient uh heating like cold climate heat pumps uh ground source heat pumps that are being used in uh schools around the community uh and and also commercial buildings um you know and other types of renewable resources renewable fuels that can heat and cool buildings in some cases um because that was one item I just wanted to address um and then the other item is that um you know in some cases people have questions about uh moving towards uh electric uh technologies and is it is it a good choice and uh in Burlington uh because we're 100 renewable it really does maximize the climate benefit of moving towards these uh you know electrification technologies uh one example I like to give is if you have an electric vehicle and you charge it uh with your Burlington electric electricity uh two-thirds of your dollar is going to stay in the Vermont economy if you went to the gas station and spend a dollar on gasoline only a quarter is going to stay in the Vermont economy um this is kind of a bilocal opportunity as we move towards uh electric uh heating and transportation as well as a climate beneficial opportunity because we're 100 renewable so um I'll turn it to Bill uh if he has some thoughts on the the regulatory side and then glad to answer questions as well sure I think since we've had a few of these Darren I'm just going to hit some of those highlights that I think you and Councillor Hanson have mentioned but just so that folks understand it's a charter change to enact or give us the authority to enact future regulations so a charter change means that it goes to the state legislature if it's passed by Vermont voters and then it would go to the governor for a signature and the charter change is about the authority to enact future regulations which those future regulations would require additional vote by Burlington voters um so the other piece that Darren mentioned is that partnership with our department we are the permitting and inspections department we bring we are bringing zoning the trades division and the code enforcement side of what folks usually knew as the code enforcement department but we've got a important part of enforcing a lot of regulations already within the city but as Darren mentioned that net zero energy roadmap that folks can find on the Burlington Electric website is a great way for folks to see what the city has both for the goal and the way that we're going to get there those strategies if you will and within those strategies there are things like uh the incentives that uh Darren and his team work on and the policy side and enforcement which is the department of permitting inspections that's exactly what we do we do regulatory and we're the gatekeeper or enforcement for non-compliance on a number of issues uh permitting inspections are already the lead in the regulatory aspects for things like health and environmental matters and a couple of those examples folks are probably already familiar with our lead abatement uh someone's going to do a project where there's a lead abatement our trades division works with the the property owners and the contractors to make sure that they're following those regulations the same goes for asbestos abatement there are regulatory requirements in the permitting process for things like that and on the energy side we're the regulatory lead for verifying compliance with the the residential building energy standards and the same for those commercial standards so we are it's not an unusual task for us to work on something like this I don't think it would be a big lift for us to do on the permitting inspection side we've got great partners in the city with Darren's team and I think the benefits of being able to reach our goal um this is the charter change that will definitely help us get there has anyone had any question jave um you can go ahead thanks um you mentioned that the impetus behind this was when you were thinking about uh new policies for new construction does this uh uh charter change is it just about new construction or would this give you regulatory policy about existing buildings as well so this is specific I mean go ahead council handsome um so yeah I can speak to that because I was involved in kind of the political process that led to that and the original impetus did come from um the ordinance committee and we were looking to regulate new construction but ultimately um through the the process that this policy went through um and I specifically was pushing on this front of if we're gonna go seek a charter change and go through this long process of going to the voters and going to the legislature let's let's go for something bigger that can really have a more dramatic impact and so this charter change is not only around new construction but it is around existing construction or existing buildings as well and the ability to regulate existing buildings have you had any discussions about what kind of future changes you possibly would be considering on existing we have a bit yeah I mean it's it's something not really formally though because you know it's something that we can't really even formally get into unless we actually have that authority but I think it would be a combination in the seven days article that came out today you know speaks to some of these potential ideas and I think ideally it would be a combination of sort of carrot and stick to similar to weatherization where there's these major incentives that are available but how do you actually ensure that people are taking advantage of those incentives and moving forward there is Dave as well an additional ballot question specific to this item that basically instructs the city council and says you know if you get this authority would uh and it's up to the voters but if you get this authority we would like to see you prioritize low and moderate income folks in the transition and ensure that they're receiving the most benefits as well as BIPOC residents of the city um and kind of ensuring that the benefits of this transition are prioritized there so that's an additional kind of potential guidance from the voters on how we would do it but ultimately it would be a whole another process if we get the authority of what do we now want to do without authority thanks and I and I think you know I think that's where some of the pushback potentially comes or the discomfort with this try to change if you really don't trust the city and you think the city is going to do something harmful with this policy you might say well I don't even want to give them that authority I guess my response to that would just be if you look at the track record of the city and what we've done to move away from fossil fuels and especially burlington electric department I think it's pretty clear with the track record that we've actually saved folks money through these initiatives not hurt people economically and so so there is a level of trust but um there's a lot of additional process that would have to go into it before the policies would be made and also I do think the city has a strong track record okay now we will go to linda and then end with Tom should be able to unmute yourself can you hear me yeah okay uh this is linda um I just want uh so the previous speaker Dave asked the question that I wanted to ask but I'll take it a little bit further so this applies to residential as well as non-residential property new new residential as well as non-residential property and I'm just curious whether the thought is that that will incentivize our our hinder new residential construction that we need to provide additional housing in burlington you know kind of looping back to earlier conversation this evening yeah um I think daren and I have been well all three of us really have been grappling with in addition to this try to change there's immediate regulations that we're considering around new construction and so that question has come up a lot um but in terms of new construction and and and creating a new building that is you know all electric or mostly electric we actually haven't gotten that much push back um and I think the cost comparison of new construction is relatively similar maybe daren or bill has actual numbers on that but I actually don't think the upfront cost for the developer is really much different otherwise we probably would have heard about it by now because we've been debating this for months and months these new regulations for new construction yeah I can I can speak to that a little bit um I think obviously uh when we think about new construction there's actually a number of buildings already in the city without this you know authority in place but thanks to the energy codes that bill mentioned earlier and thanks to incentive programs that we have in place for energy efficiency and for electrification with burlington electric we have you know rental properties that are primarily heated and cooled with cold climate heat pumps as opposed to fossil fuels all around the city today we have commercial properties and schools that are heated and cooled with heat pumps and when you're building new and you have the opportunity to design it cleanly there's a great opportunity cost competitive to install these technologies and save money down the road by not having to do a retrofit the more challenging piece is how to convert existing properties we have really strong incentive programs right now to do that more than 800 burlington residents have taken advantage of heat pump incentives to install heat pumps in homes around the city but when we think of new construction it's a great opportunity to kind of build it right the first time and not have to retrofit down the road and I think this authority could potentially enhance those opportunities but we're seeing some of them happening already even you know under current policy that's great thank you very appreciate that yeah and actually one thing just to hammer it home too um the policy we're considering the ordinance around new construction actually has a carve out to where the way it's written now it's still draft but if you can prove that it's going to cost more over a 20 year time period you can actually get out and so I think we're really betting on the fact that it actually is totally cost competitive but if you can prove that the non-fossil option is going to cost you more over 20 years um you actually don't have to comply okay and we can finish it off with time yeah uh jack uh I just wanted some clarification are there's two ballot items on this coming up or did I miss here there are and and then there's also these other policies swirling that I'm talking that I'm referencing as well more immediately so there's many and as I set up front at the meeting there's a lot of building related um policies in the mix but there are two ballot items one is this charter change that we've that we're focusing on the other is an advisory question to voters that would give some guidance to the city if the charter change passes we want to see you prioritize low and moderate income and BIPOC residents um that's a ballot advisory question to sort of give some potential guidance um if we get this authority okay and that's number seven and the chart that's question seven and the charter change is question three okay and then um I think I know where to find the charter change questions in the city website these these other questions uh like these advisory questions is there a place I can look to get the wording on that yeah the the ballot now that ballots are sent out they should be posted um Darin or Bill do you know if they're posted yet the ballots I believe there are ballots for each ward that are posted on the city's uh website I believe under the clerk treasurer's office office of elections but I've seen the sample ballots are are posted oh yeah I'll post the link I just found it yeah okay thanks oh uh just one one last comment um at my age if it takes 20 years for payback I'll be long dead so it's not but I have to I have to respond to that so I just wanted to throw that out jack I'm I'm I'm kidding uh yeah yeah well no it's the it's the cost to the developer um over a 20-year cycle yeah I mean I I guess I get I guess I get your point but they finance these projects out to where so if it's a 20-year cost they're financing that out oh spreading it over the 20 years anyways so the cost in the first year you know what I mean so it shouldn't be that lag time right I meant for retrofitting existing housing oh got it got it got it yeah yeah no the 20-year thing I was talking about was for new construction and so that shouldn't be the case um but yeah existing is more of a challenge because um it's not always going to be economical depending on the lifespan of your existing system you've already invested in an existing system and you've got 10 more years on it well then switching right now probably doesn't make sense but I don't think many of us would try to push a policy that would that would really punish people economically in that way to where if you just bought a brand new fossil fuel system are we gonna force you no we'll probably and from my perspective we go after the older systems they're getting ready to replace them anyways okay now you make the switch so um yeah I think it's a point well taken is like we have to think about how we're moving people off and to make sure that we're not hurting people economically if I can just one quick thing on that exact point um if folks look at their burlington electric bill this month there's an insert about our heat pump incentives and you can get up to 75 off the cost of a heat pump installation so that we're providing those incentives up front to try to make it as cost effective as possible for folks who are interested in retrofitting and the great thing about the heat pumps is not only they provide heat efficiently in the winter time but for folks who are looking for cooling as well which increasingly as the climate is warming we do have more folks who are looking to have cooling these are way more efficient than using a window air conditioner for example and can save quite a bit of money in the summertime compared to some of those other cooling options so increasingly technology is becoming better more efficient and our incentives are helping hopefully to make it more affordable as well and we don't have a chat function I just got your email jack but I'll make sure the sample ballot link that you got that you sent me gets put in the minute so any of the links from tonight or presentations will be in the minutes of the meeting so it may be easier for you to go there to find that information than anywhere else on the city website but thank you all so much for for tonight I think it was a really interesting meeting and again just to reiterate what everyone was saying at the beginning of the meeting if there are any questions about voting or like where to find things on the website I'm sure you can reach out to like any of the steering committee members and reach out to me I'll give you a like a non-partisan link but I know voting can be really challenging and confusing especially now so feel free to reach out but thank you all so much for sticking with us tonight. Thanks everyone. Have a good night. Thank you all. Bye. Good night.