 Good morning, everyone. I'm Abraham Abhishek from MetaMeta and the Water Channel. Welcome to the webinar. We are lucky to have with us today Amy Jameh, who will be discussing her work exploring Madhash and womanhood among school girls in Zambia. Amy has recently graduated from IIT Delft and she has a master's in sanitation and she did not tell me this, but her dissertation on this topic has won the best master's in sanitation thesis award which is given out by the Gates Foundation. For me, two aspects of Amy's dissertation stand out versus the choice of the topic itself and the fact that she situated it within the context of wash or water sanitation and hygiene as we know it. Feminine hygiene is something we don't discuss enough when we are discussing wash. But when you think about it, it is perhaps the most important aspect of sanitation for half the population. The second thing that stood out for me was the choice of the methodology. The key research method she used was photo voice, which is like participatory photography. And it is remarkable the kind of frank, deep and fascinating insights that could bring out while discussing a topic that young girls or actually people in general find difficult to talk about. So I hope we will get to hear more from Amy regarding both aspects. And before I hand over the proceedings to Amy, I would just like to request you to please put your questions and comments into this chat box here. We will keep collecting them throughout the webinar and we'll discuss each one during the Q&A session, which will be after the presentation. So Amy, please take it away. Good morning from here. And thank you everybody for coming. I'll present on my research. You need to activate your microphone. I think if you click on the microphone button at the top. If it is activated, maybe I just volume. Okay, I think that's just me. Okay, please go ahead. Yeah, sorry. Okay. Once again, good morning from here. I welcome you all. Thank you for coming. My topic is the many meanings of menstruation, practices and imaginary among school girls in Lusaka, Zambia. In the past two decades, menstrual hygiene management have emerged as a growing domain of scholarship and development. Menstrual hygiene management entails the availability of clean menstrual management material to absorb or collect bloods, toilets with vibrancy, soap and water and facilities to dispose of used menstrual hygiene materials. Menstrual hygiene management is therefore deemed as an essential precondition to secure the rights of girls and women. It is also determined as an important condition to the achievement of the sustainable development goals. The barriers to menstrual hygiene management have been highlighted as a major obstacle to the educational advancement of adolescent girls resulting to poor health and economic insecurity of these girls in global South and their countries. Results that have been conducted on menstrual hygiene management have argued that adequate sanitation facilities in schools in low income countries are as important as teachers and classrooms in strengthening educational success. This type of research and intervention by the work sectors and organization conducting menstrual hygiene management have met with critics from feminist approaches. These critics have highlighted how menstrual hygiene management can reinforce imaginaries of superiority and civilization where women and girls from the global South are deemed to be educated on how to manage their own menstruation in a proper and hygienic way. These scholars also highlighted that inequalities that are worsened by the lack of access to sanitation cannot be solved with technological solutions as the distribution of sedentary parts but efforts have to be put in place to encounter all the root causes of gender inequality and disparity. This research is contributing to critical studies on menstrual hygiene management by talking about school girls in their own terms and seeing menage and menstruation through their own contexts, eyes and views. To achieve this, I engage in photo boy workshops and focus group discussion where pre-menage and post-menage girls were invited to take photos and also see their narrative relating to their expectations, dreams or fear surrounding their first period, womanhood and monthly menstruation. The general aim of the research is to capture school girls' own voices, thoughts, anxieties and perceptions. In order to think sanitation from a gender perspective, I also situated these girls in their own socio-economic and cultural contexts while at the same time listening from their own experiences. This research is guided by the following questions. How can we characterize gender relations in households in Paris, Auburn, Broussaca? How do girls expect and experience their first period? What are the expectations and experiences that school girls in this specific socio-economic context associated with their monthly menstruation and womanhood? Objectives to examine gender relations within the socio-economic context and in connection to girls' menage and menstruation in the schools and their immediate communities. To identify and describe school girls' expectations and experience of adolescent, menage and menstruation and to contribute to a critical reading of menstrual hygiene management interventions and literature. To contextualize the debate around menstruation, I engage with three bodies of literature. The first body of literature deals with power, gender and gender relations. This research understood gender relations as socially constructed rules and responsibilities attributed to men and women. These rules are always time and place specific and interact with other social relations such as religion, ethnicity, income, age and class. Routine related to what is to be a man or a woman are land and practice and any attempt to perform outside one category might lead to the rejection from others. I'll go ahead and define the phone path position as an outside option, the ownership or control over assets, income and resources as well as the available external support system that determines how well of a person could be if the relationship is. Rahelidut have pointed out that we can learn more about gender power relations in a particular society by looking at how menstruation is perceived and understand by the society. The second group of literatures is concern, gender, sanitation and debate of menstruation. As mentioned previously, in the last two decades, menstrual hygiene management or literatures menstrual hygiene management have grown. And there was a research called the girl effect that indicated that one in 10 girls in Africa miss school or drop out of school entirely because of their period. This research have argued that school environments in African countries are incapable of providing the needs for adolescent girls to privately manage their monthly flow, render emotional support and provide adequate menstrual hygiene awareness before midnight. It was in this context that UNICEF start promoting what's in school policies to specifically tackle the needs of menstruating girls. Here on the left is the picture of the framework for menstrual hygiene management programming. The third group of literatures I dealt with is the three critical voices by feminist scholars. These feminist scholars argue that menstrual hygiene management focuses on technological pieces living behind the structural root causes of gender inequalities. Policy and development approach relate the promotion of gender equality to the provision of accessible sanitation while neglecting everyday gender and power dynamics, for example, around female sexuality. They also warn about the constituents of making female naturally bodily function, universal, pathological, in need of hygienic measures or in need of the attention of medical practitioner and prescription, which they refer to as the menstruation is subject to medicalization. Further on, the feminist scholars highlight that the commercialization and industrialization of menstruation have yield valuable economic gain for cooperation and industry, therefore the global sound is seen as a potential market. Lastly, they draw attention to the fact that menstrual hygiene management tend to feed imaginaries of women and girls of global sound as unable of managing their own monthly menstruation. In doing so, their traditional menstrual practices, cultures and social economic context are disagreeable. For the voice is the main method used in this research. For the voice is a community-based participatory research method which can provide in-depth discussion inside from the point of view of girls and community members. For the voice was pioneered by Caroline Wang with her team investigating the everyday welfare and health issues of rural women in China through email. For the voice is anchored on three main objectives and intended results to enable people to visualize and reflect about their communities and their voice and problems, to foster discussion and knowledge sharing about essential matters during group or individual discussions of the photograph and to advocate for change through policy or decision makers. The participatory analysis of photo voice is characterized by three processes, selecting, contextualizing and analyzing. The photo voice exercise was complemented with eight focus group discussions with schoolgirls, schoolboys, teachers and community members. In order to deepen the analysis of the research, interviews also were conducted. Girls were targeted from grade 7 when they attempt to reach their 3rd middle and grade 9 when they already have some experience about menstruation. As mentioned before, the girls were invited to take photos and share narratives relating to their expectations, dreams, anxieties or fears surrounding their first period, womanhood and monthly menstruation. 22 girls participated in the process between the age 12 to 17. Reading concerts were given to the girls and they were taken home. They were asked to take them home and discuss it with their parents and the forms of design were signed by their parents and the students. This study was conducted in two public schools located on two informal peri-overn settlements of Lusaka, George and Chawama. Lusaka is among the fastest developing cities in South Africa and it is densely populated. Squatter settlements have grown rapidly with migration and today we have 37 of them refers to as compound. Approximately 80% of Lusaka's population live in this compound which is household having an average of 5 to 8 members. George compound have about 400,000 inhabitants while Chawama compound have about 100,000 inhabitants. These peri-overn settlements or compounds as they are referred to are characterized by self-built infrastructure and most of the time large public services. Now I will be talking about the findings of the research and I will start with the everyday gender and power relations in Lusaka. Men and women are expected to behave in different ways. Girls are taught to be wives and mothers. Boys are taught to be husbands, fathers and leaders. In what have to do with household choice and responsibilities, girls and women are more bothered. Elder daughters take huge responsibility in what concerns the care of house and home-makers. They act as second in command after they are mothers. Increasing urbanization in Zambia have catalyzed the changes in gender relations. This changes the stop-power hierarchy. In the context of economic instability and musculine unemployment, women have been entering the workforce. Many families in this compound are headed by women. Women are also involved in small businesses either selling food or vegetables around the street of the city or in the local markets while community men are mostly engaged in services and order informal labor market. Despite women's participation in a pay label, men are predominantly considered as the masters of the households. Men who help their wives with household work are therefore considered lazy, not man enough, or they are accused of being charmed or bewitched by their wives. Participants in both compounds describe women as soft, time-carrying and tender. Women explain that it's best to have certain modesty before marriage in comparison to their male counterpart. A boy should speak loud and with confidence and a girl should always speak in low tune with silence. Women are to make an effort to satisfy men's sexual needs. Labia pooling, use of vaginal tightening hubs, and more initiation, which will be discussed in the preceding slide, are some of the means and procedures women undertake in order to satisfy their partner. There is a common phrase in Nyanja, a local language, that marriage is CPT-CLOB, meaning marriage is something that you endure. Women also endure marriage for the sake of their children. While many women in these compounds are the main economic providers and keepers of the household, men are culturally considered the providers of the family. Families therefore give priorities to boys of breeding and give them more income and social freedom. Therefore, a man who is unable to be a provider for the family is considered lazy and a failure. Girls usually have early calf use and restrictions on their movement are more severe than that of the boy. Now, I will be talking about the expectation around adolescent menage and monthly period. The first thing I counter was the gifts received from their mothers when the students were asked to take pictures of their expectations around their menstruation. The day I saw my period, I was shocked and cried and told my mother because I do not know what it was. She covered my face with a new chitengue and took me to the room. My father, brothers and other men were not allowed to see me. My mother was so happy, she called her friend, they came and a party was made for me. She bought chitengues, pants and underpants for me. I felt like a princess on that day. I was given 200 kwacha. Chitengue is an African fabric that can be used in two functions. Firstly, it can be wear around the waist as skirt. And also secondly, it can be cut into pieces to be used as cloth parts to control the menstrual blood. When I saw my first period, my mother went to the market, bought three panties and two chitengues. One was for me to wear and the other one she cut it into pieces for me to use and control the blood. My mother also bought a live chicken which she cooked for me without adding salt to it. This is the tradition to welcome me to womanhood. The girls also received blessings and prayers from their mothers. I enjoyed the day. I loved the way my mother talked to me. She blessed me and prayed for me. On my first period, I did not eat food with salt for one week. It is common among girls reaching me night to undergo a traditional initiation ceremony commonly called moi. Moi have transformed with time. Now girls spend only one week after their first period and a party with food and music is organized after the seven days. During this initiation period, girls have conversations about the meaning of adulthood with family, women, or with elongated. They are taught about how to clean themselves, how to wear chitengues and parts. They are also told to keep their menstrual period secret from boys and men and their advice not to get pregnant. Reaching me night among girls is an achievement because after getting it, they can be part of the big girls group. During the discussion, as many girls pointed out to physical pain related to menstruation, some others saw pictures with different stories. While one stated that she doesn't feel any menstrual cramp, another one explained how she did feel pain, but when she arrived to school, she was so distracted with her friend that she forgot about it. Another one of the main themes that came up in the photo voice workshop was infrastructure. At school, there are sanitation infrastructure that haven't worked for years, and it is difficult for these girls to wash their hands or take shower after sport due to broken sinks and broken showers. Similar pictures were also taken in the compounds where the supply is intermittent. The compounds are broken and supply also is expensive. Some of the girls have explained how they have to work for long distance to collect water from the wells that cost as the same price as the water from the tap. All water services contribute to anxiety as after midnight, girls are in charge of the sweet tree washing their menstrual clothes and underwear. These are some of the features that portrayed the physical feelings and being part of a group. This second group of features shows the sanitation facilities in the schools and in the compound. Despite some of the girls feeling uncomfortable and having to deal with the flat infrastructure, they also took pictures as evidence of special care and support density from their family members during their period days. They also identified activities and relationships that brought them peace and comfort during the days in which they are menstruating. I love to eat okra soup and five fish stew during my periods. My mother prepared it for me always. My mother bought this bag for me to keep my period materials. When I'm attending, I like to spend more time with our dog. I also like him because he chased away teams at night. Besides concern with modesty and hiding menstrual blood, an important group of features made reference to expectations of womanhood relating to love, marriage, and families, and economic security. Pregnancy is associated with menstruation and the girls' mothers fear the dangers of pregnancy after midnight and they want their daughters against it not to give it to peer pressure and bad influences. It is worth mentioning that the focus is not so much on the loss of virginity as it is on teen pregnancy. After my period, my mother told me, if you are having sex, you should stop it because you can get pregnant now. The girls express the importance of love as they move into womanhood. For them, love is something we look forward to, to find someone to love, to marry, and have families in the future. Love is described as having somebody who can make one feel comfortable, having a man to stand by you, and being married forever. I feel happy anytime I see my period because it reminds me that I can have children and that in the future, I will find somebody I love, marry, and have kids. The expectation and anxieties around sexuality and love in this compound lead to its complexities, as indicated by this picture. This picture, the first picture on the left, I want to find love to have somebody on my side to protect me and comfort me when I'm in trouble and provide for me, maybe help me pay for school fees. Even though the girls are looking forward to love, their anxieties surrounded with love appears because the girls have anxieties in getting the right partners from this compound. Here, men and young boys drink alcohol a lot in the bars and they gamble. This is why I don't like the men here. Menceration stories from the ground up. Zambia was included in the UNICEF project, was in school for girls with entail the adaptation of menstrual hygiene management programs in school. By which the state is committed to provide improved drinking water and sanitation. This government initiated have not materialized on schools of George and Tawama. Despite the fact that some teachers have attended trainings or workshop on menstrual hygiene management, there have not been major changes in the curriculum. Although the infrastructures exist, students involved in this photo voice initiative reported the interminence of water, the lack of maintenance in the toilets and drain and this constant state of breakdowns of the south. While some of this is related to problems in planning school priorities and lack of funding, there are also general difficulties for this compound assessing public services. Menceral projects only materialize in form of preferred part distribution and although the girls are told in their households about adulthood and about managing their monthly period, there is limited biological knowledge of menstruation and the processes it entails. Reproductive health education as a subject is not a particular topic in the curriculum and topics such as menstruation and the details of human reproduction are left in the hands of science teachers. There are however journeys of reusable menstrual part distribution. In the visitor school, this part distribution are done on specific occasions. When there is a donation of reusable parts from organization to be distributed among the adolescent girls or when NGOs or social entrepreneurs visited the schools when the commemoration of war hard was in lay, menstrual hygiene day and wall women's day. During my field work, I was invited to join one of these activities where students were given reusable parts by law school with funds from GIZ. While some of these girls explained they have switched to the new reusable parts, some others mixed the new parts with the regular Chitangya clothes and others are not using the new parts yet but told me they will use them in the future. As with the Chitangya clothes, girls have difficulties with assessing water to wash disposable and reusable parts. As a middle-class woman from Saharan Africa, I talk about my own life history as I embark on this research. I use cloth parts from junior school to my college level in every one of my periods and I still use them today in combination of the disposable parts. I have never felt unhygienic, uncomfortable and never thought of missing school because I don't have a disposable part or because I couldn't manage my menstruation. My mother have provided me with enough materials to make my menstrual life comfortable and natural. Later on, I worked for five years as a school teacher of adolescent girls. I never witnessed school absenteeism or drop out among them due to the fact that they didn't have disposable parts or they didn't know how to manage their menstruation. I found out girls in three of our Lusata went through similar experience. Why do menstrual hygiene management promoters and entrepreneurs continue to depict girls of Africa as in desperate need to solution to manage their own menstrual blood and seeing themselves having the ultimate help for all African girls? The feminist scholars have won against these alarmist messages with little empirical evidence such as one in ten girls in Africa miss school or completely drop out of school because they don't know how to manage their period or they don't have sanitary parts. Fodomo Gabo, one of the feminist scholars, referred to such claims and statements as the false crisis and racialized civilizational discourse with missionary zeal to help women in the right way. According to one, one of the main objectives of photo voice is to advocate for change through policy or decision makers. In this sense, I would like to conclude with three points for discussion on menstrual hygiene management projects in very urban settlements from the global side. The first one has to do with the importance of bonds cemented between mothers and daughters. Mothers showcase love, affection, care and guiding. Mothers also gift materials, cook their daughters' favorite dishes and also do home choices in order to make their menstrual days of their daughters more comfortable. Mothers are the ones that are concerned about the possibility of early pregnancy. One of the important findings in this research is that some mothers are alert against pregnancy but more lenient in what concerns virginity. This link of care between mothers and daughters have not been explored by researchers on menstrual hygiene management. Literatures on menstrual hygiene management always or usually portray parents from the global side as ignorance of their daughters' menstrual histories and sexuality. The second one has to do with the complexity surrounding sexuality, romantic love and marriage. Households in this compound face economic instability as a result of urban inequality and the lack of employment among women. Women are among men. Women have been going out of the house to work in market or as domestic workers. Both women and girls spoke about family problems relating to male alcohol consumption and gambling. This situation coexist with persistent imaginaries of men as providers and head of the family. Even though economic rules have shifted, ideals of masculinity have not. Some girls see romantic love as a vehicle to obtain economic stability, having someone to help your back. Relationships are not always incompatible with school. As one of the girls explained, boyfriends can help with education costs. Any project aiming to intervene on the life of women in the urban south should first understand these complexities. The last one has to do with the reality of with infrastructures in both compounds and the schools. Despite effort to extend infrastructures, toilet and tarp steadily work, our students complain about the widespread lack of maintenance. This has to do with the fact that some of the development projects do not tackle mental health issues in the long run. Public schools therefore lack the funding to hire maintenance personnel. Thank you everybody. Thanks a lot, Amy. We now move towards the discussion. Let me turn on my webcam as well. Yes, we have been receiving questions and comments. So let's start taking them. Okay. First one is from Varsha Patra. Did you consider including men and boys as respondents as well? Would that have added some value to the research? Yeah, I have as mentioned in the research method, with a photo voice is only for the girls. But I have done focus group discussion with school boys and community men. Yeah, with community men. I have done various focus group discussion and interview with school boys and community men. And yes, it has added some value on the research because some of the important information I got for the research, most of them come from the men, especially the school boys. Even the traditional initiation ceremony was first, I first heard about it when I got the focus group discussion with the school boys. That's interesting. Second question, the second set of questions is from Patuka, whose questions are about the ethical issues you might have encountered. Sex and sexuality is a very sensitive topic in Africa. How did you proceed with the research? Did you seek for ethical clearance from the ethics committee and the community heads? Okay, when you come to photo voice, photo voice itself is full of ethical issues because you are photographing people or photographing something. And also menstruation is a very sensitive issue. Okay, before going to Zambia, I have brought to the partner organization, the WASCO, I hold them to her later. And then before having the research, we have to go to the regional educational board and then ask for their consent before conducting the research. And then we have to go to the school again and ask for the consent of the school. Then the ethical issues are discussed with the schools and at the same time they are discussed with the students and the students were asked to take the ethical issue form to their parents and numbers were given them to call in case of any issue they want to ask. The menstruation is a very sensitive topic because at first people would like to approach me. They ask questions, but if I ask them, my present would especially men, if they ask me, what are you doing here? What is your result? The more I said menstruation, you can see that the mood and everything changed. But with communication and with talking to the right people and involving people into the research, the ethical issue was dealt with. The next set of questions is about how to bring it up, how to discuss these things. And Rainier and Demba are asking, Rainier is asking, what is a natural age of phase in life to start discussing the issues around sexuality in the groups that you work with? And Demba asks, what could be the best way to discuss this sensitive topic at the household level? I think everything is about communication. Now, for example, the girls, I think you should start talking to them about menstruation before it occurs so that they can know what it is all about. Some of them have had about menstruation, but at the end of the day, it's not everything that is said to them. As in the Zambian culture, they said, we don't tell them everything before. We just tell them everything during the initiation ceremony. So the best age is like, there's no best time just like before they get their menstruation, the communication should be there. Most of them have had it from their parents, most of them have had it from their friends, but they didn't know a lot about it, the biological process about it. So starting discussing menstruation or sexuality in a group, it was easy for me because some of the students have already learned something in their science classes. So it was easy to come up and discuss with the girls, especially the girls with the matter about the boys. It was somehow awkward because in Zambian culture, men don't talk about menstrual issues of women, but as time goes on, there was some familiarization between us and it was easy for me. When it comes to discussing this sensitive topic in a household, I think between husbands and wives or between you and your children, I think if people should be open, people talk to these things, it doesn't matter whether you are the man or the woman, we should discuss this topic to our children, we should tell them what this topic means because it is very important. If we don't tell them, we'll look at it at different places and maybe copy it and then deal with it in a different manner. Yes. The next set of questions is about where the relevant government departments were in the research process, like the role of the, how did you interact with them? So question from any is, did you liaise? Is that how it's pronounced liaise with the Ministry of General Education headquarters to get insights on efforts and progress they have made to break myths around menstruation, especially in schools and Ziggy asks which government department is responsible for menstrual health and hygiene in Zambia? Okay. I have not liaise with any department in the menstrual education system in Zambia, but I have talked to the NGOs that mostly conduct the menstrual hygiene management in Zambia and the partner institutions I went to are also responsible for menstrual hygiene management. But my research is not about what people are, like what kind of activities are they doing. I want to find out what did the girls say? What did the girls say about menstruation? It's not basically about menstrual hygiene management. It's about what are the girls? What are some of the views of the girls? Because most of the research that are done on menstrual hygiene management is all about hygienic measures, how do we take care of these things? But for me, I went for the girls. I want to hear from themselves what they mean about menstruation, what menstruation means to them. So follow-up question to that is being asked by Mohammed Asadu-Zaman shortcut, which is what are the policy implications if any of your studies? Do you have any specific policy recommendations that you could give to governments or NGOs that emanate from your study? One of the things I can say is when you talk about menstruation or when you talk about helping the girls in the right way, just distributing sanitary parts is not the way out. We have to know the complexities as I mentioned before around sexuality and menstruation. So any intervention or any government policies that have to do with menstruation should not look just at the technical solution, but should look at other social issues, gender relations around menstruation. Not just let's go drop sanitary parts for them and then that's the end of it. The next question is from EP, which is do you know local views on girls using tampons or menstrual cups that have worn inside the body? I have talked to one of the NGOs trying to... to how to call it? Trying to make people or women use menstrual cup, but it's not easy with tampons and menstrual cup given the fact that in African culture inserting something into your private part is not encouraged, especially for young girls. So they are trying, but tampons and menstrual cups are not... In the local level, many of them don't even know about it. People use menstrual sanitary parts, cloth parts, or they use diapers here. Rainier asks again, did you also gather some findings on the effect of water and sanitation facilities at their homes? Apart from what you found out through photo voice, did you also collect some information about what kind of water and sanitation facilities were at the homes of the respondents? Yes, I do go to the communities and I look around the water services and the sanitation facilities they have. So they have community tabs that are open at certain time of the day and people pay monthly to get those water supplies and the sanitation facilities are mostly fit latrines in these compounds. Okay. Esther Racco asks, what's your personal opinion on labia polling? Esther, thank you. You know, these cultures, we find them. So I have not known this culture because we are not having where I come from, but we cannot condemn people's culture and say they are primitive. The one thing we have to do, we have to discuss with the people and just say, okay, what can we do best to make the labia polling this way or what are the effects of this thing? Personally, I don't have much idea about labia polling, but I think it's people's culture. We have to respect it. And if we want to tell them that it have either effects, we have to have discussion with them to see how best we can go down. Okay. Next question is from Lydia who asks, under changing environment based on consumer needs, technologies and regulations, what are your considerations? I'm not sure if I understand what you are getting at, but if you would like to respond. Under the changing environment, is it talking about the changing environment in the gender relations? I don't know. Maybe I can come up with something although you can maybe send the question again for us to understand what you said. Right. Okay. In that case, let's move on. Actually, this was our last question. So let me just check just to be 100% sure. Yes, this was our last question and with that we have also come to the end of the webinar I think. Thanks a lot Amy for sharing your work with us. I don't think the overarching focus of your work was to prescribe specific ways to address feminine hygiene issues. But for me, there have been some take home messages. And one key message for me that I would take home is to consider to look at the issue of feminine hygiene not just as a demand supply cost subsidy, you know, kind of issue which can be solved by throwing sanitary pads at it. But to look at it also as a gender disparity issue if you're interested in addressing it at its very root. And the other things I take away are more questions than answers. And for example, how to make an intervention how to design an intervention that aims at improving access to feminine hygiene without imposing certain you know cultural norms upon the process and upon the people that we are working with, working for. And also for me an important take home question is how should men talk about this issue and what should be their role in this whole scheme of things and what is their sort of comparative advantage when it comes to addressing this issue. With this we would like to end and thanks again Amy for sharing your great presentation. Thanks to the audience for turning up for your questions and comments. A recording of the webinar will be shortly available later today on www.thewaterchild.tv slash webinars and that's a web page that you'll be redirected to when we close this webinar. So thanks a lot. Thanks again and see you the next time.