 I would like to call this meeting to order for a regular session of the South Royal City Council on Monday November 19th 2018 and we're going to start with the Pledge of Allegiance and Barb you're here so many times I'm going to let you in the honor of leading us in the Pledge of Allegiance of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Thank you. I am acting and Helen really stood she and Dave Kaufman are away tonight and we're holding down the fort and we have some things on our agenda tonight first we're going to start with introductions in case we have an emergency how best to exit the building Kevin Dorn will do that. Thank you Megan if we have an emergency tonight leave need to leave the building please leave by the two doors to the outside here and gather in the parking lot to the south of the building if for whatever reason these two exits are blocked please go out the front back into the lobby out the walkway and still gather in the parking lot to the south Tom Hubbard and I will be responsible for making sure the building is cleared so please leave expeditiously. I'd like to add one thing under other business we received a request from Jessica Luizos the chair of planning commission in order to consider having a planning commission member added to the study group for the prioritization of the lands to be conserved so I wanted to just have a little discussion under other business just a very brief discussion on a couple of questions that have come up by laws that you don't need to decide tonight but just for clarity purposes from staff for as comments and questions from the public not related to any of the agenda items someone is here to speak to the council keep going announcements and city managers report we'll start with the counselors counselor Barrett I'm not much to report other than the fact that I was here last Wednesday for the special IZ it did almost get to Wednesday but it was Tuesday yeah two things one I've had a resident that lives just south of me on Dorset at the bend report a second accident there was a very serious one on election night that took out the power for about seven hours that's what took out the power there was a car crash that went hit a power pole right on that bend but the residents that live right there just raised a serious concern that they have showed me a list of all the accidents over the years at that bend and they're just asking for some attention to look at traffic signage reflectors the neighbors right at the bend are also considering getting some sort of barriers in order to protect their barn past city lane correct south going south going south but going north to there's also a bend so the blairs live right across the street there the accident that took out power for the mill as well as my house in Dorset farms was at that bend it was a drunken driver at 10 20 a.m. hit a power pole another one happened the last week so I'm just wondering I have full confidence in our in our road department but just that those neighbors are asking for some idea or if we've looked at other safety measures that might help draw the attention to the bend so the GMP map showed that took out Dorset Street all the way down to City Hall was there a power outage at City Hall election night here no so it must have been further up so I know it was out you were out well I I got a text from my wife saying oh great I can't watch the returns because there's no power so that I went to the GMP site and saw that it was a big swath of Dorset Street from you know that area all the way north it looked like it went past the interstate but those are powers out until five in the morning unless our unless our generator kicked in and I don't I don't remember hearing it I was just thinking for a really heavy voting night that would be the worst case I thought I would be here and no power real problem to highlight not necessarily the power weakness but the the traffic accidents that keep happening at that bend so I don't know what can be done but reflectors or otherwise we'll look into it the other item is December 9th Sunday the ugly sweater on the rotaries putting it on I really hope a lot of people at home find an ugly sweater to go for a 5k run on Sunday the December 9th so more information should be found everywhere second annual right second annual well I don't have anything other than the great news that are four articles the city and the school articles passed since the last regular meeting of the city council and I just see that as a great vote of confidence in the city and in in our planning but also in our future and I'm I'm really really thrilled to to see that the voters so so heartily voted yes on those articles and now our city manager thanks Megan just a few things we're pleased to report that market street will reopen at 7 a.m. tomorrow morning so what's that good leak it leak it as much as you can we want the public to be aware and make use of the road construction will continue throughout some portion of the early winter on the sides of the road and so you'll still see construction equipment out there but it won't be specifically on the road it will be reopened is it paid yes it's one layer it's paved I don't know if they'll put another layer on in the spring so tomorrow staff is meeting just to coordinate on the of ongoing dialogue with them about the project staff is also meeting with representatives from Allard Square for the same reason you know our neighbors in the project so we will be meeting with them regularly there will be an ad in the paper next Thursday and on our social media for recruiting new members for the natural resources committee we're down I think they're close to not being able to have a quorum we lost a member last week and so council said in the past when that when the danger of not being able to get a quorum surfaces will advertise also you have a public member to be appointed to the IZ TDR committee that will be advertised as well on Wednesday on the fifth Ashley will be presenting to the natural resources committee on a on this concept around a tri-city conservation district and Ashley and I will be talking to the Williston Conservation Commission on Wednesday of this week just a gauge interest nothing more than that there's no rush on this or urgency but just a gauge interest and see how we could coordinate and collaborate on management of conserved lands that are kind of in the same area and enhance that Tom and I actually attended a Howard Center event do you want to talk about that Howard Center had their annual their annual wasn't really a dinner it was more grazing at the in Shelburne at the Pitzig Alley Center and Shelburne Farms honoring Gretchen Morse as their personal year if you know Gretchen and I a lot of people obviously do she's had a her entire career has been dedicated to helping people and a very worthy recognition for Gretchen and then this last thing on the on the other business about IZ but that's it that's it there is progress a contractor has been identified and is being brought on board to take the project from where it's been which is the governing body has been formed and the governing documents have been approved to actual implementation we're still hoping for at least partial implementation on July 1 of 2019 but between now and then there's a lot of work to do the consultant has done this not only this component of this process numerous times but also manages has ongoing management responsibility for several consolidated dispatch services so they're very highly qualified but I will I will work to get you a full and complete briefing on that at a probably the meeting on the 17th or I will get a written briefing to you right away I haven't I haven't spoken about that in a while there hasn't been a lot of movement except for the bringing on of a consultant but that's a huge step so I will make it out of that okay very good to the consent agenda we have disbursements to consider as well as the grant application to the agency of commerce and community development for electric vehicle chargers second all right all in favor is there any discussion yeah Kevin and Tom is there any discussion if so we're putting a grant this grant applications for charging stations at the community center right any I have you thought about what the tariff would be on that charging station what you would charge per whatever it has anybody thought about that I don't think there is one I don't think the intention is to have a tariff on it initially so if you choose I mean if you choose a company that sells a kiosk that has the guns that goes to level to charger right there they probably have lots of ways you can program this thing for people to pay so if it's charge point the customer has an RFID tag that they wave against it right and then it turns it on and they get charged accordingly so I'm just curious it and every meter around town has got a different tariff structure if you go down to the GE innovation center they have charge point and it's like 50 cents an hour for the first for a dollar an hour after that if you go to the Lakeview garage it's 17 cents an hour forever anyway so just okay just asking that general question because it it's important you don't want to alienate your customers if you're going to be to do it for free that's one thing but you should never do things for free because people will take advantage of it so we are paying for the cloud access in order to be able to charge that was my understanding from the grant application yeah yeah so we just haven't talked about that yeah you'll have a lot of options to go we get the grant and we can I saw that private enterprises were the last in the line of the list of the application priority so unfortunately my employer probably won't have any interest but this is all VW of money right yeah but it's I sense from the council that your preference is to look at a fee schedule there should be even even if it's small there has people should learn to pay something to charge their cars I mean yeah okay we haven't feasible talked about that no Alana will be down later she may have some more I just assumed there was going to be since there was it could be that there's something in motion already on that I'm just not familiar with it see if we hopefully get the grant question I do have I never park in a spot where there is electrical vehicle charging capacity I don't have an electrical vehicle can anybody park there or will it be limited restricted there's a car crusher right around the corner if you park there goes I think we've got three of them I think we've got six of them lined up for to go to the community center right so we'll have to talk about that okay because the parking spaces are right yeah three of them are close to the building three of our more remote in the parking lot so we'll talk about how to deploy that and bring up plan back to the council on that okay yeah well that's the problem yeah right so we'll bring out we'll bring up a plan back to the council on that and hopefully we get the grant but regardless we'll bring it back all in favor there are more questions I alright very good so that's the consent agenda and we will pass around the disbursements we have our and report from the Winooski Valley Park District and so I will invite both of you up our representative David Crawford's here yes thank you for your time today appreciate it Dave Crawford our your representative to the Board of Trustees and Laurence Cody who is our programs manager who actually has been at the district for far longer than I have so she's joining us this year and you are all three familiar with us so just give a quick summary of how this year went and then we can do a Q&A does that make sense okay a few things so we are continuing to work with the city of South Burlington on a contract basis and also maintaining the parks that you have in your jurisdiction and that's I think that's going pretty well we've it was a you know we went through the whole growth curve and figure out who does what and how to how to test things out between the city and private contractors and us and I think that's really come together and with Ashley Parker now managing the open space project she'll be coordinating with Nick for the services through the park district as well as whether we partner with BYCC or other groups during the summer so it's been a good partnership with you guys most recently we've been doing the signage of Red Rocks and so that's that's been great in terms of interacting with the public in getting feedback and how people feel about it so that's been big this year I'm just going forward on my presentation here a little bit here's just broadly speaking this is who we are we have over 1750 acres under management 18 different properties and we are growing this year a big deal for us was the acquisition of the former Rivers End Marina in Burlington and if you look at this map this is the Rivermouth and you can see the bike path is that red strip on the left and then new park site is something you probably never noticed even if you drove very close to it it's a two and half acre site directly contiguous with Derwey Island natural area I'm pretty thrilled about this it was a two-year process a willing seller willing buyer using VHCB money and the Burlington Legacy Conservation Fund as our main sources of funding we now are using a FEMA grant to do demolition and I've got a couple applications out so far it's been mostly other people's money to do the project which is which we're also very happy about it's a really fascinating site I it's going to be converted into a canoe and kayak drop-off which will be very unique in that as far as I can tell it's the only dedicated canoe kayak drop-off in this this whole area that will be easily accessible to the public so we're pretty thrilled about this project it's just an artist's rendition what it might look like a lot of upgrades in our parks this year our master park superintendent Tim Larnet as usual doing is his magic and working with dozens of volunteers from student groups corporations universities it's a big part of our model just a foreign after this has been a big year two in terms of developing wall cut family natural area and Colchester which over the last three years we've been developing and it's probably about 85% 90% complete now many punches and stairways and bridges and so forth it's very challenging terrain so that park will be open to the public this coming spring and Tom mentioned YCC they're a big part of our operation as well we we have a project pretty much every year that involves YCC at some level they're very important partner for us this is the bridge we installed at Baycrest Baycrest Village I haven't stopped early the little the new park I defined it myself so far to the north or west it's just it's a small less-than-acre open space that was given to the city by John Lark and this that's and this is in it the structures in it okay there's a little stream that goes in the back of it after and by it but didn't notice there was a stream might be generous depends on what time of year and we this is a project that straddles the South Burlington Williston line that we did this this past year involving plenty of bunch of trees along Muddy Brook this is a bridge down the interval that was completely torn up during the ice last winter that was repaired this just gives you a sample the kind of work we do and what's really been big for us is an expansion of our education programs and Lauren is very much involved with that being our programs director and we've had a soul camp program sustainable outdoor leadership and education program that started very small about five years ago and now is a full eight-week summer program with waiting lists and just generally speaking we're really finding that there is a huge need not just for outdoor education but for physical activity for kids generally and that we have kids show up we've had no recess recess all day it is the level of physical experience that the schools are providing is dipping and we find ourselves meeting multiple needs not just environment education but the actual physical activity and socialization yes well there's the sole camp is a summer camp program and then we also provide after school programs several schools and that's in South Burlington not currently after school programs with South Burlington but our we have an AmeriCorps environmental educator and she has gone into I believe orchard school and is trying to connect with Chamberlain school to do some supplemental environmental education programs mostly around birding that's her kind of area of expertise and it's a really good connection for especially elementary school kids to connect to the outdoors through birds okay great it's good to hear that could come in handy and in that vein Lauren is finishing up a grant right now to the basin program whereby we're going to use the intervail we're cooperating with the intervail center and use the intervail as an outdoor classroom for service learning around floodplain forest management and invasive species I think I described that properly but we're finding that you know these programs having them being consistent and available is something even more important than I think we even thought when we started with the sole camp a few years ago we also have February vacation day camp full disclosure it's rained the last two February's so this picture was actually not from the February date yet so just from the after school program but it had snow in it so I felt duty bound to show you some snow in February yeah this is just more about the after school thing where it's just really striking to us the need that is out there and there's more resources around after school and we intend on taking full advantage of that word in very unique position very successful program in Jericho that we're doing and this ties in this piece here ties into what we're doing with the grant with the basin program we're building on already existing relationships with our member town schools so we have a base of participation that we want to grow over the next couple of years conservation field day as always was just an unbelievable hit I don't know how we get good weather every year but we've been lucky so far over 300 fifth grade fifth graders attending and it's just a great annual event and gathering for us this year you know we're gonna be completing wall cut and creating after-school programs we find the contractor work and we are now doing work with Williston we've done some work for Winooski we've done some stuff with Burlington although that hasn't turned into a contract relationship but we have a lot of our relationship that we put built with you guys has had unintended positive outcomes for us in terms of other entities becoming interested in us working for them so that's the area in which we are incrementally growing and being able to build additional income and capacity then of course developing doorway cove which is that new park that we we purchased and as always continuing the search for new sources of revenue new ways to support the system and this is our our staff and board this year we hired Remy Cretol so we now have an additional staff member he's an hourly staff member he has been with us really for the last five years he started as a senior in college he's been a camp counselor he's been in our crew he does natural resource inventories for park acquisition the guy does everything so about half of his time with us he's doing things that bring us additional income to the organization so that's been a really good investment for a lot of reasons having him on board so that's the thumbnail sketch of this year and we are we do appreciate your support and I'd like to entertain any questions or concerns about about the park district and how we've done this year I'll just say that I did see the Vermont Youth Conservation Corps at Red Rocks the summer on a number of occasions and I see the gullies that they have dug up in order to have the runoff control the runoff right and stop erosion so I I just I saw them in action it was they looked like a very happy crew too so it looks like it was a really positive experience for them and it certainly benefits us it's worked into a really interesting relationship because our superintendent actually provides some supervision to the crew which kind of provides because our crew is also doing work at the same park and it's really evolved of the last couple years that you know really good clarity around getting things done efficiently and but yeah we enjoy working with them it's a great program y'all do great work keep up the great work loves hearing from me every year but no questions thanks I still haven't been to all these parks yet we're bridges at Wheeler which is always it's a very wet park so that's appreciated Dave do you want to I guess like to express my appreciation of the board for appointing me both to the this board and the natural resource committee very pleased to be able to serve the community and the linkages that go on between that so thank you thank you takes many of us to make good work of all of what we are trying to get done the Eau Claire parcel that was that will be conserved right that there is a connection into the muddy brook area that's anticipated right to be so we have walking trails right yes so that so that conservation action actually assists is it connect to the park district as well do you know that walking path do we know that from which parcel so this is the Eau Claire acreage that is going to be conserved the 378 acres but I thought that there is some of that was was was you know connected to the muddy brook I mean the good rich and it was the good rich parcels at the same haven't looked at a map for a while this is southeast corner of South Burlington so you could very well be there might be some contiguous there's a lot of open large parcels down there just know if you had had we're aware of that I was not okay I was aware of another parcel the good rich parcel down there which was part of the mix of the town trying to figure out mitigation around Market Street not on how that all sugared out but we had some early discussions about that Tom reminded me I should talk about the assessment because we're asking you for money we did our overall budget went up by 6.5 percent and on average we're asking for a 4.8 percent increase from our member towns and so your assessment is going up by $2,494 in our request for fiscal year 20 overall since the last two fiscal years we've had a flat assessment request so I think actually I've gotten some advice from others that I should have bumped up the assessment last year to make this one a little bit softer but you know in real terms our our operating budget is I think it's highly efficient for the amount of service that we provide so if there's any issues around the increase to be happy to address it I think you know as I look at national data that our organization probably runs about $150,000 less than we should you look at standards and norms but just be aware that we are asking you for a bit more money this year can I have the numbers again because I wasn't sure your last year's assessment was 56592 this year is 59086 it was an increase of four point something overall it's a 4.2 percent rise for you guys sure last year's assessment was $56,592 this year it's 59086 and that's a rise of 4.2 percent or $2,494 what's driving that aspect of your of your increase I mean just in terms of all the things that are more expensive or whatever just curious it's partly cost-of-doing business we do have a new employee that employee one reason we decided to make that investment is because as I was mentioning earlier about half of what he's doing is activities to bring an extra income to the to the organization so the strategy with having him on board is to build that part of organization which has been an incremental rise so the bad news is I'm asking for more money the good news is that you know over a percentage of that rise is being covered through new program and project revenues which is the direction that we're trying to move into and it's it's incremental that each year I see that number in terms of income from alternate sources going up and we're trying to become less dependent on the town are you allowed to have corporate sponsorship or yes yep well thank you very much thank you for coming in happy thanksgiving to you should I just pull this out feeling very old Egyptian technology Charlie no no just in case you have to blame so our representative to the CCRPC and Chittenden County Regional Planning Commission thank you for making time on the agenda and I'm going to start off with an apology because Megan you are the alternate and it has not been updated and shows Sandy still is the alternate I receive emails yes I'm in the system so apologies for that so this is our annual report to the city and this is a paper report outlining kind of the first page gives you some background on the Regional Planning Commission we work for the municipalities of Chittenden County they make up our board as we're discussing and we get money from federal and state programs we leverage municipal dues for that money so it's about a 14 to one return on local investment and you see your representatives with the exception that it should be Megan Emory there is the alternate so anything thank you for having Chris as a representative he's a very active member of the Commission and very helpful and is willing to put some thoughts into the conversation at appropriate time so really do appreciate his participation in our board and in various committees that he's helped on on the second page are specific things that we did with the city of South Burlington in the last fiscal year so I'm sure a lot of these was look like familiar projects to you the exit 14 bike pad scoping working on real-time traffic information traffic signal management working on the 116 Kimball Tilley Drive plan there rec path scoping Williston Road bike pad mapping I'm not going to read each one of these but I'm happy to take any feedback this is also largely a customer service call so if you have you know feedback for us on how we're doing and providing services to the city be happy to take that or any questions on specific projects that we worked on with you last year or not on the real-time traffic information your second bullet are you looking at smarter street lights that can actually capture congestion or real-time and Trent and share that that is more of the project in the third bullet this one is actually just capturing what is happening on the highways and communicating it to V trans and I think probably to your public works apartment also so that they have information and can notify travelers of issues the but the third bullet is really where the signals are being upgraded and Justin is leading that project and really appreciate that he's moving that project forward and we worked together I think it was in January to get it tweaked into the state's budget to make sure it was in the FY 19 budget because it disappeared for a while right I think because V trans isn't running the project they weren't aware that it was really ready for construction in this fiscal year so it wasn't that it disappeared it just they weren't aware that was ready to construction so there was a little gap in communication which we we closed up so so we think that's going to happen this year I don't want to see our next year I think 2018 2019 I believe 2019 okay by this year I meant next year yeah which I was done my turkey's not done yet but you know so what are these Bluetooth devices you're talking about so those are we got a federal grant a few years ago and they're really monitoring traffic flow so speed and incidents and and it's really just to provide better information for the traffic engineers to use in like I said a lot of its incident management like being able to alert travelers where there is a situation you know to avoid or take a detour and you know hopefully it's really just allowing really the transportation professionals have better data to make better decisions but this is an app that somebody downloaded their phone and it's transmitting no no this is an actual device that somebody has in their car no street lights so yeah these are actually kind of monitoring boxes you said you said you said you know your black box vehicle tracking yeah real-time by now tracking Bluetooth devices carried by motorist cell phones yeah so it's not but it's not asking you to sign into anything it's anybody that has their Bluetooth and and signal transmitting it's kind of anonymously saying oh here's a unique Bluetooth device traveling through we don't know who it is there's no information going okay into your device or from it it's just kind of track tracking the path of that and you have these these receivers planted that that listen to Bluetooth RFID signals as they're going by they've been going in this year and okay and I think there's still some to be installed next year on kind of the the busiest travel of roads in Chittany County so anybody that has a cell phone with the turned on who drives by is gonna you're gonna snag an ID okay or maybe in your vehicle Bluetooth for the people at home that's already happening at the airport it's happening at the U-Miles happening on Church Street it's all anonymous they don't know who it is just your device committing a signal is used to capture some idea of how much congestion traffic is going through that point at that time so this is nothing new don't call your lawyers privacy and it was really very that was a thank you for that because very fundamental foundational issue that this is not getting any personal information or or anything to encroach on any privacy issues it's really trying to obtain more discrete data and being able to aggregate it and understand what's happening on the transportation system without having you know the the tubes across the roads or you know like where we that that was the old way like you put two sets of tubes and try to get a sense of traffic speed and volume or are literally doing speed tests with somebody driving down the road how many seconds does it take to get from here to there so try and take advantage of technology sorry were you about to ask something else no that's that's it's cool idea hadn't heard of it yeah so it was close to a million dollar grant that we got a few years ago sorry but the interesting technology hopefully can we find that data on the web real-time anywhere as far as I know it's just going into the traffic management unit of e-trans right now so let me let me check on that yeah big cities they capture in real-time and then admit it on an FM channel that can be consumed by GPS units so I'd love it Vermont we just don't have a traffic to justify that sophistication but I love that we're looking at these technologies yeah we're really trying to push technology and and honestly what what the city's doing here in the exit 14 area in the next boat under that traffic signal management is you know also upgrading all those signals and yet we need to take better use of technology you know right now our most of our signals in our main corridors are 25 to 30 years old you know a whole different generation of technology is available now so and and some of the evaluation we did show that we might be able to get up to like you know 30 to 40 percent reductions in delay in that heavily traveled Williston Road Dorset Street and a main street in Burlington some of those intersections we get some significant reductions in delay with improved technology at the signals so moving on to the third page or fourth page I guess now sorry are the projects that you have in the capital program the region the regional planning Commission has a fairly required transportation improvement program that mirrors the capital program that the state has and again I think a lot of these are familiar projects like things like Marcus Street reconstruction are using federal funds the exit 14 signal upgrades we were just talking about the you have stormwater projects a number of those call works but really a lot of stormwater improvements so thank you for doing those and then the Williston Road cycle track and pedestrian improvements is has been in there you've gotten some like pet grants and that's construction for 2022 so happy to that's that's the latest that we know about the schedule things will change as they often do there I'd like to know a little bit about the building homes been seeing affordable housing what the sticking points are for not meet meeting that 700 yeah so yeah so we're trying to get 700 out of the 3500 to be affordable yeah so obviously our affordable housing partners know that better than I do in Champlain housing trust and housing Vermont but I think if you were to ask him you know they would kind of come back to resources because the the permanently affordable units are all subsidized and so you know those have been subsidized was mostly federal money in the last year or so the legislature passed a 35 million dollar housing bond which turned out into 37 million I think what they actually put it out and so that's that's been helpful but and Chittany County was certainly getting a good share of that but there's still so much more demand than there is resources would first ask which was asked actually the original request to the state was for 70 million dollar bond we get halfway there and so that I think that will be the primary request when we had the press conference a few weeks ago that was really the primary request other things I think the leading municipalities are working on having affordable housing committee housing trust fund looking at inclusionary zoning so those are all things that could help as well sorry I didn't tell you anything you didn't already know but no magic bullets there yeah on those next couple pages are a variety of regional activities that we've been engaged with last year we updated our regional Ecos plan including focus areas on the economy transportation and energy supporting clean water programs in lots of different ways public health issues he talked about dispatch a little bit earlier emergency management so again I'm not going to zero in on any one of those unless there's a question that you'd like to know more about Chris Shaw here to we might ask him questions I I said in on one that you couldn't attend and I thought it was very interesting to I might also bring up I'm not going to be there next week this was originally scheduled for this Wednesday and I think somebody noticed that it came the day before Thanksgiving and that wouldn't be a good idea so they rescheduled it for the 28th that's six o'clock so I can't make that one but yes please go ahead fire away yeah well I'm curious to hear from you folks I think it's it's you know your vantage point that we don't often get seeing how South Burlington goals you know match the goals of our regional partners I think that would be interesting for us to hear some of what your experience has been I think that's the whole point of this organization is that we are going to align you know with the region in what we want and what the region needs and I think you spoke to it just there with the Champlain I forget the exact that housing initiative and the difficulties with the affordable housing because in the time that I've spent talking with folks building homes together I mean the folks move out of South Burlington because the lack of affordability and so that's a very real issue not just for South Burlington but for all our areas and it transfers out of the region so that we get traffic coming in from the north you see it lined up at the exits as they come in from Georgia and Fairfax and their affordable homes up there in Milton and that contributes to traffic on our streets as well coming up from Ferrisburg and Heinzburg and Monkton and Starksboro and all those places where they're dealing with it you've certainly read about Heinzburg's issues with development as well in the city center so we can't just operate in the silo and I think we're we've got the right mix and I think CCRPC watches Winooski and Essex and Colchester and South Burlington all struggling with the same issues and trying to find regional solutions to it one of the things I like about one of the things we're doing as far as transportation and is concerned is that you don't just build Atlanta eight lane highways to solve some of the traffic congestion problems as might have been done in the 50s 60s and 70s and we have loosened where it makes sense like the third lane which was always an impediment in front of the Sheraton now Double Tree Hotel there in the Staples Plaza where it's helped people get out onto the highway but these other ad assets that are coming online with the Bluetooth and with the traffic monitoring and that the smart transportation signals is really a rather exciting time for South Burlington as well as a region because I see the traffic backed up over the bridge at exit 14 at noon time of all times of the day it backs up even worse at five six o'clock at night and to reduce those congestions I think speaks to an improvement in the quality of life for a lot of people that choose to live in South Burlington for that reason for the access to Burlington the employment centers around Jitney County so it's a it's a juggling act not to mention patch and road and lime kiln I mean there are a lot of pinch points in our city so you know we have the need to preserve our open space in South Burlington and not have you know developments come rambling out there and just go plunk and drain what we've talked about here in interim zoning the resources and sustainability potentially of some of things extending lines of water and sewer out there that just doesn't make sense but I think we've done a good job with the various committees around here also for bringing them into the inner city and taking a look at the infill and certainly Tim's you know looked a lot of infill projects along some of our major arteries where we do focus the need to build housing and would make sense for affordability along route seven and route two and that makes sense because I see Williston just go into town at Maple Tree Place I mean they are just finny crossing it's it they must have stored up all their chits for building homes and if they can't put the building homes together three thousand units right there in that one property I guess I'm not very good accounting because it sure looks like they're putting up about a thousand over the course of this past six months they're still sticking with their growth management program I know but they they've done it by being you know conservative over the last ten years and now suddenly bloom and boom but it makes sense again there because it's at the junction of two major routes and it doesn't require cars and it's really exciting to me to see that for these people to be able to get to their services whether it's a cleaner a grocery store and rec pass that are all right there so there's certainly plenty of opportunities and the corners if you will of Chittenden County we have a number of corners I'm surprised to South Burlington doesn't have a corner and I think I suggested one for up here where you come up with some new street names for your city center and stuff corners seem to be a good Vermont thing you have cops corner sevens corner and you know five corners and all that stuff it sort of gives you instant heritage and legitimacy where maybe there wasn't any before so it is that juggling act of having density near the core near these major routes near the trip transportation centers and then preserving what's always been beautiful about Vermont and South Burlington as well away from those transportation quarters and away from you know areas that don't need that development and we're still also trying to attract people because right now all the workers are coming in or what is it 50% of our workers are coming in from out of Chittenden County in a given day I don't know if it's that big but yeah there's a good chunk I think it's like we have 24,000 here we bring in 48 or something within South Burlington well yeah it may be it's South Burlington but the numbers seem to flow over that way and so that's something that the affordable housing if we can solve that find some more permanent subsidies and and find ways to reduce the traffic loads like for all its garishness finny crossing it is right there where you don't need to necessarily drive to every service that you need and hopefully have employers right in that area so you can even want to work and be more of a livable city there are many examples around it Milton struggles with the same issue with their interim zoning where they were trying to get less residential in their town and more employers I think it was so it's nice to hear from other cities and towns even though they're not the same scale as our but the big ones are Colchester and Essex and Burlington and how they're dealing with it because it helps keep you all in the center focused on the improvements and I do think we're running far away from the transportation glut that we had where everybody get in the car and drive around with two dollar a gallon gas and I think the day will come more we're gonna be a little smarter about that I we I think one of the things we we worry about is what the self-driving cars and uber has done to increase that traffic flow and demand which is counterintuitive you're like well I don't own a car everything must be better now you have this car making multiple trips that it wasn't doing before and so in some unintended ways we're discovering things that that's nature that will be blossoming more over the next 10 years and really have to be grappled with but that I think still needs to be a challenge that we need to contend with is that transportation issue in the entire county so that's the one I'm keeping my eye on I'm looking for guidance from you on the building homes together and your initiative with the interim zoning I would love to hear you know what I can speak to for that for you folks and similarly with the airport if they haven't got a 2040 plan at this point because we're darn near a 2020 and you know I'll keep hearing about is the 2030 vision so I would love to hear more from you for direction on that what I would like to have move forward is the airport drive straight through to airport Parkway the amount of traffic on White Street is when we have an elementary school there is I think a real problem we have many near misses fortunately no fatalities or electric poles being taken out but many many near near misses and I see that as a real need for the city that's I think been on the back burner I don't know quite what we're waiting for is it federal funding what because the houses are down now yeah I think the city and and I have a seat at the the airports master planning you know they're updating that 2030 plan I expect this will be a significant priority for that you know and and I think the one of the questions will be you know can we get FAA money to help do that or will it all be on transportation dollars so I'm not sure I think some conversation needs to happen with the airport to kind of decide on who's taking lead there because I don't know if it if it if it is other transportation dollars and I think I may be back to the city to take the lead those are city streets so and certainly you've seen from what it's cost to put in the streetscape for market street that these projects aren't inconsequential when it does come to money certainly maybe not five million dollars because it may not have the same level of streetscape as you're doing for city center but it needs to have curbs it needs to have storm water it needs to have all that and if you've looked at the terrain that it skirts along the airport fence there there's a lot of deep ravines about two or three of them and then into the EPA the environmental assessments and that can squelch things right right there so it's difficult I sort of looked at your Picard Circle storm water and often questioned that I'm like you took the homes down on Picard Circle so why are you doing storm water on Picard Circle you might just want to let it go back to grass rather than pavement but I believe that it serves a purpose for working with the roadway right next to Picard Circle which would be the airport Parkway so and probably right there where you would consider a connection that would skirt the neighborhood and get the traffic off of White Street I think the way it snakes past the Chamberlain School wouldn't necessarily I don't know how you'd resolve that unless you're going through Kirby cartridges or something and increasing traffic on Patchin Road and it would be Williston to Airport Drive to Airport Parkway that it would the airport would be buffered completely from from that can you walk straight through well and or with Megan's idea in mind you could do one-way streets that would prevent right the kind of through traffic that we've heard from the neighborhood we've we've done the studies where you've polled people and they said we'd really like our neighborhood to be back to being a neighborhood and not being you know cut through by three or four major thoroughfares and we're redoing that intersection where we have the National Guard Road what is the name of that now function junction or yeah thank you for baving that by the way Manchester has the has the franchise on malfunction junction but where lime kiln and the Ethan Allen industrial park yeah Airport Park yeah because that's in the next three or four years if I recall from the CIP yes yeah yeah well we're talking about things in the future I should also make sure you're aware I think just within the last few days and hopefully you both saw the requests that went out to all of our municipalities asking what projects they'd be interested in us looking at or you're providing some funding for for FY 20 and so we sent it out this time of year just as you're developing your budgets for FY 20 if you are asking for some additional study that requires a match you know can know about that in advance and think about that and budget that in as well and of course as probably in advance of that will definitely in advance of that as I mentioned last week I'll just kind of remind you that we are fully intending to follow through on the commitment I made last week to help you with anything we can do for interim zoning analysis you know and bylaw drafting whatever we can do to help move that along with you and your staff and your committees thank you but that in my column for next week so I'm glad to hear you reiterate that yeah yeah I'm happy to do that and I think it's it's important not just for South Burlington but I think for the region Chris will definitely keep you in your mind for the IZ that's a good that's a good point TDRs might be kind of a tricky one for us to self too yeah but I know you've been really keen on conservation as well so well the TDRs at the time were helpful for the SEQ I think it harkens back to the time I first got on the planning commission there were some things that we you have and you try and preserve but at the same time they're incremental steps so it may not be a perfect one but it get got you closer to the goal and as you know in politics and you know group committee work oftentimes compromises the key to getting to the the end of a lot of these issues and it doesn't always turn out the way you want on the right doesn't always turn out the way you want on the left but you do come to a considered happy medium so the TDRs were put in place just for SEQ you guys are gonna have to evaluate whether that would work better if you expanded it to all four of the districts of the city I think you know that's certainly well worth consideration and what that would do to the picture so I'd be happy to hear the conversation thank you very much Chris I'll let you know about the 28th email you to remind you about it thank you for I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I have a sore throat so I'll do my best those two all right so now we have fun work of our capital improvement plan but important work and Martha's here with all the numbers right sure Alana could we have you come up we had a question from earlier from our consent agenda the submittal for the grant for the electric charging vehicle test test go ahead one of Lancer Tim Barrett so has any thought been given to the the rate tariff structure you would have for charging stations at the community center so I haven't looked very closely at it but my understanding is that it's about a dollar a something okay yeah and that it's about $12 to fill up a large tank which would be a higher higher range vehicle but so at the community center you imagine cars aren't going to be there so if you if you take out employee cars if you had enough stations to facilitate employee cars let's say had two employees that had cars right right wherever they came from I don't know how far away they came from but they might just want to top off right right which case they may be asked want to be asked to move their cars and depending upon the demand for the right so if there were four left over customers most customers are going to be there more than a couple hours you know one would expect so unless it was someone who's spending the entire day at the senior center right right right so so there are a range of tariffs that are in effect around Burlington now some the ones that are kind of co-owned between GNP and NRG they're kind of expensive and the ones that are sort of subsidized by Burlington at Lakeview garage and some other locations like in front of BED BED has two outside in their little round parking lot right adjacent to the Innovation Center parking lot and those are all 17 cents a kilowatt hour for the first four hours then you might pay more afterwards because then they just think you're parking too you know so so it's kind of interesting to know like if you log into ChargePoint.com and you do look a survey and look at the tariffs for each of these charging stations you'll you'll see that I mean some if they're owned by municipalities they're looking to look into make a profit they're looking to kind of break even but then also incentivize people to use the charging station right so I was just so some charging stations make me mad because they're too expensive for me to use so it forces me to go back to gasoline right because I don't want to pay that I don't want to pay three times the rate you know whatever it is that I'm used to paying whereas other ones are very reasonable so so it is a ChargePoint system is the system that we're being wrecked that we're recommending and okay and I'm I'm not sure who would set the fees but if we have the flexibility in terms of the fees because of the diversity of tariff rates across ChargePoint charges I think you can set them I think the city can decide what you want to do so and so I'm not sure who sets fees is that we can recommend something to the council and have them approve it yeah I mean so I know this is way in advance but but the fact that you're asking or you were submitting a grant means you know there's a good probability that we'll get something right I mean yeah and there is an opportunity to not charge for the first year if that's something sure that that the city's interesting as an innovation center charged very little for the first X years and then they recently changed it now it's kind of cost prohibitive you know for it's like if you if you have a car that has a big capacity and you you know and you want to charge the whole thing up it's like so if you wanted if you wanted ten cents worth of gas gasoline but they're gonna make you pump a dollar in you know that that's the breakpoint so thank you very much you're welcome back to our discussion of the capital improvement plan so this is an overview with underlining underneath it right in the agenda is it so the word overview was underlined I think because there was a link to the document well they're okay okay I just saw that's the reason I don't know if it was going to be a thousand feet or a 20,000 feet you know a little bow to that point I have one request I would love to get this in the XLS format and also the last one we approved so that there's a really nice feature which you can just highlight what's changed that's what my question I would love this if it would just somehow draw out what has been tweaked the judge removed the judge that are moved and I know that can be hard but I can do it if you can give me this in the spreadsheet XLS format I can give you this pressure but we do have a slide for what has changed and what is perfect don't get it the whole thing Tom yes it's about a hundred and 120 you can still do it for a document that size without PDFing it we'll send it to you so you have it all three one it that way if you want to forward us your magic that would be great we can have it to put to your boxes okay this is it would be less tedious than page-to-page comparing yeah well the Excel 2 is also complicated but yes we'll try to do that my name is Martha Machar I'm the deputy finance officer and this year we are doing this AP I'm sure Tom probably told you in the email that we are not going to have each individual department head present their portion Tom the deputy city manager liner plan so that myself will do the overview of what is in the CIP this year so looking at the way at the CIP this year couple improvement program is a 10-year plan that is adjusted every year depending on the availability of the data new data that has been acquired it is used to improve coordination timing of the major projects plan for capital replacement and future major maintenance they also help in maintaining the rate the tax rate so that it doesn't fluctuate high from year to year the first year of the capital improvement program once approved will be incorporated into the budget in this case would be the FY 20 will be incorporated into the FY 20 budget process the public hearing for the CIP to be won for December 17 at 7 30 p.m. so key update for this year is the proposed FY 2020 expenditures that are funded with the general fund revenues are projected to increase last year CIP approved FY 2019 by 150,000 and to put it into perspective we looked at what it was last year and how much it had increases the increase last year was 174,000 over what was approved for FY 2018 and what has been done differently this year is if you looked on there are these open space projects last year on the few past years those projects were included in the rec in the recreational pack CIP but this year have been separated out and there are standalone CIP projects with also is the bicycle and pedestrian improvement projects those projects are also then a new projects they are the red pack red path projects road and sidewalk CIP projects in the past that's how we've called them but this year with the passage of painful path those have been improved and tweak where the recommendation from the natural resources and bike and path committee to come up with the bicycle and pedestrian improvement programs so all of them are included into one CIP this year and what is also done differently this year is the recreation indoor recreation facility is moved out from the city center CIP into demonstration CIP and more on that will come later on in the presentation that is a small print and hard to read but that's just the overview of all the CIP the city CIP and probably would be a lot easier to look at the graph if you look at the orange the longer orange one is the total cost projected for each fiscal year and the blue line which is a little shorter in the portion that is funded with the general fund money so that will be the property tax portion revenue to fund the cost for that year for that specific year because each line the each two line represent a fiscal year the first one is the FY 20 and the cost is at the top and the revenue portion of revenue the general fund revenue portion of that cost is the blue one which is around 2.9 and Tom will talk about the general fund portion of the CIP this year thanks Martha so this this slide is the one that literally will transfer into the budget should these projects be approved the biggest increase in the general fund this year because it was basically flat is the taking of the money from the 750 in the city center reserve fund to bring it back up to 860 so that alone was a 110 thousand dollar increase that we didn't have from last year but specific to the projects for this year where we're on track for increasing the paving budget by the 25 thousand each year so we're we've kept that in there it was 600 last year we're up to the 625 the the fleet replacement for Justin that's one of the large dump trucks and one of the smaller pickup trucks those are two items at 195 there the garage expansion is for another bay it's a two-year project he originally had 80,000 in there we've divided it up into a two-year project so they can do it at the same time you can still fund it at 80,000 dollars but it will become it will come out of different fiscal years so we do it at the end of fiscal year 20 and carry it over into fiscal the summer fiscal year 21 and they can do both bays together so we just separated that out it's another bay at the maintenance garage the for the for the vehicles put up at Patronode at Patronode yep how many days they have like I think the plan Tim the master plan for that is four more all together so this would this would be two of those they're going to extend the end of the building out or they're going to widen it it's some of it's going to be widened keep in mind that the buildings eventually at JC Park will come down so a couple of these bays will become the parks operation out of that building rather than where they're functioning now out of the the park building at JC Park and that's that's what this expansion is going to be to accommodate the parks division there so we'll move out of JC Park yeah those buildings will eventually come down they'll have to come down so what happens at JC Park in that building that they have today there's just a lot of storage of the storage yeah I was a storage or is yes storage oh okay these two bays would be storage for the parks they're bays for storage not for vehicle maintenance right these two would be that's I was getting out I didn't understand facility stewardship that those are the projects with commons energy that would be planned that Justin will be working with those folks on the removal of the infected ash bore that the ash trees this is just the beginning of this project I think you saw the enormity of what that cost is really going to be to the city over the next coming years do we have confirmation that we have trees infected now it's we we don't have one now but it's not a matter of whether we're going to get it it's going to happen right yeah but we don't have any now we do not and it takes a while for the trees to to succumb this is this is part of the proactive approach to being ready for when it happens and getting other new trees planted so that it's just not decimated this is cutting down trees that are infected and replacing them at a proactive replacement yes well I got a problem with that but we'll let's not talk about it yeah yeah so this is this is a very small amount actually as you as you if you look I don't know Martha if you have that sheet with the ash bore proposal on it it's pretty significant investment Tim what a 200,000 a year yeah yeah yeah and I think over a million dollars all together so that's it that with highway with fire and ambulance we've got some apparatus floor drains they're going to be replaced for equipment and station one we've got some co meters a calibration station and duty coats that will all be replaced as part of the equipment line for 64,000 the communication tower that's the principal and interest on the loan that we have for the radios project and the EMS equipment is for a cardiac monitor defibrillator Tom so I'm looking at the fire department overview by expenditure page for the sip and I see fire station to as 59,000 out in 21 and then 500,000 out in 29 over the past two or three months I've had some various people residents ask me about the plans to either add up when you were talking about a bay I thought it was the fire station to are we have we with deputy chief acting chief Francis on board I don't know how familiar he is with the sip but we fully evaluated the condition of fire station one fire station two in the factoring of our sip that process has been thorough of late and could you speak to maybe what fire station to is needing on the long term horizon so the renovation for fire station to begin this year and there's $116,000 in fire impact fees set for that project that's the only thing in the impact fee ordinance that allows those fees to be used for so we're just at the point where spring clearing of the building will be done this year and renovation projects to get the yeah the beds the living quarters established upstairs will be done this year so the 50 to 59,000 that's in the out years is whether or not the 116 completes the project or not evidently because of the living quarters that has to have a back entrance out of it to so that would be some additional costs but Terry's working on getting the figures he's working on lining up contractors to get station to going this year station one line item here so I mean looking 10 years out we don't have any anticipated major upgrades to station one I hope not the floor drains are going to be looking to be replaced where the apparatus is the floor drains underneath I think that's about a $12,000 project this the station itself is in good shape there's some apparatus placeholders in the budget for different vehicles place the heaters we've done we've done the HVAC system a little bit of repair on the roof but yeah we just in the past decade I believe we just completed a an addition to fire station one well we're the ambulance base are yes yeah and and including additional living quarters I believe yeah yeah but I mean the the station itself is an excellent condition it's well maintained communicate that to the community because I had concerns from residents saying that we've been neglecting our fire stations but I'm hearing that's not the case and that they're in good shape and everybody's been I don't think that station one station two needs a little bit of work I think the ramp you know where the trucks come out the lip needs to be repaired there and the second floor renovation is due so yeah I think station two is looking a little tired but I think with the renovations that are planned it will bring the building up to where it should be station one is in good shape very good shape police department the 80,000 right there that's that's financing the debt service on the new police station the vehicle replacement right now there's four cruisers replaced at that amount of money that's a replacement and fit up your question was a good one Tom so you can see how expensive it is to fit up a new cruiser but the light bar itself the chief told me this morning is for grand and that includes the sensor that is able to change the traffic lights as they drive and that alone is over a thousand dollars so it's about ten thousand dollars a little over ten thousand dollars to fit up a police cruiser that's getting the car painting it striping at decals installing the radios and everything the mobile cameras that are in the car the light bar the sirens all that stuff it's it's pretty significant for vehicles that's for this year yeah because we put off replacing that's more than we've had in the past him where we've been typically at three and I think once we get into the meetings with all the other departments and we look at the general fund as a whole we'll decide whether or not we recommend keeping the fourth vehicle it might get us ahead a little bit but it may not be absolutely required that we do that this year so I think that's something that we have to look at recreation and parks overlook park is tired came back up communications computers electronics and police as well yes so the police department their their communications and computers is so different from the rest of the city system that we have a contract that manages their operation there some of this is the replacement of of the desktop computers that they have that's about twenty thousand of that number the rest of that is requirements that we have to meet from the state to keep the all the software the licenses the firewalls that need to be in place the interaction with the state system the chief could go into quite a list with you but it's it's significant and that's about the cost we've been paying over the last few years for it for the police department pretty significant that's more than the rest of the city combined just to put it in perspective so I was saying overlook park needs a little bit of an overhaul the the paving there is very torn up Justin would like to do a little bit of redesign as he does some of the repaving work the estimate that we've received is about 80 grand for that so we're looking to to take care of that during fiscal year 20 so that project is in there at this time the vet memorial park upgrades the 15,000 is for additional security lighting around the park and some additional security lighting up by the band show one of the one of the things that we realized especially as we get into the the later hours up there with things like Sobu night out is that the lighting is without headlights or something like that on it it's a bit dangerous getting around in the park to get back to vehicles so this is to provide some additional lighting in the park that could be timed and could be on seasonally but done in a way that is most efficient the dog park amenities is as mainly a placeholder for a new dog park and some of the amenities for a new dog park once you get a recommendation from the dog park committee so that's a placeholder in there right now the IT budget is that's Al's budget for new hardware new servers for the city the city system which encompasses public works city hall and both fire stations city center again the reserve fund we proposed we're taking the amount back up to the 860 the bonds payment is totally separate that's that's just for the bonds that we have on the books right now that's separate that's not a part of city center right okay but a lot of Alana does have a separate city center chart that she'll review with you but happy to answer any questions you have on this page before we flip over kid do you have that she no this year that I have does not have them separately but I do have a long-term dad that I would line each one that I can pull up line coverage yes it's mainly the things in the long-term debt schedule Tim yeah this minute like Kennedy wrote it's it's items such as Kennedy wrote the lime kiln bridge I the fire station I know has been on there for a while it may be in its last year or have been completed last year I believe the pension like long-term with that in part of the bond payment the long unfunded liability I'll send you that she's always going to know what the communication tower is separate you listed it separately okay looking at the seawall capital improvement projects they mainly for FY 20 have three the fleet replacement that's what their vehicles and they do have some upgrade for the badly by upgrades and that the hundred that they have on there that's just for the design work and some consultant to in the majority of work is planned to be done in FY 23 and 24 they also have a new sewer line placement in the head had the area and that is to increase the endeavor the sewer line from Burlington to our main line that is the ballet that we have currently and that work is projected to be done in FY 20 20 bus just for the funding sources so and then the stormwater for the early stormwater projects the fleet replacement that they have on there that is just for the transfer to their fleet reserve fund they're not buying anything this year and then they have the stormwater project around the city area that they will take care of any stormwater projects around the area and they as we know what is a big thing and that's why they have that much projects on there that much money put in for the stormwater projects and the funding source for that that is just coming from the stormwater and grand most of them is funded with grand they always go out for grand money especially Tom the picture and there is a fund as well you go back to that Martha yeah notice the 80 from Shelburn all right so that's covering the what the maintenance that we're providing for them right now we're not doing any projects with them but it's the ongoing maintenance that correct yep except for the capacity in the dorset tower no this is a couple years ago yeah stormwater we contracted with manage their stormwater thank you and for the water capital improvement program they only have one plan one project plan for the FY 2020 and that is to install a Neptune AMR and water metering system I think this one has been going on the last water metering system install was back in 2002 and 2003 and this is the lifetime is 10 years and some of these are we overdue and that's why that project is in there to replace some of the water metering on the account that are muted and when you look at this one that is to the first line is to pay the bond that they had taken back then and the project is actually funded with the water fund and so Alana will cover the city center portion of the safety thank you so so city center I think the overarching reason that we're able to address city center and look at the improvements or funding improvements in city center is because of the funding sources so this chart outlines a 10-year sort of a 10-year snapshot at where the money is coming from and what it's going towards so so whether it's constructing projects funding the reserve which means that it's coming from property taxes and has an impact on property taxes or financing debt so making the debt sir making debt payments so green is making debt payments and so a portion of that you can see comes from the city center CIP reserve fund a portion of that comes from public facility impact fees and a portion of that comes from other which in this case is undefined but there will be a conversation in the future about local option taxes and then tiff district revenues so tiff district revenues are the bulk of debt payments but city center reserve funds obviously would fund would fund projects like the library city hall senior center and then reserve funding is funding the reserve is all of that is coming from the general fund obviously and then constructing projects is a variety has probably the most diverse diverse funds the most diverse types of things so I mean it's funded by the most diverse sources so this is a list of the projects and I apologize that they're so it's so small as in years past I'm just going to run through the projects and give you a sense of what their status is and let you know what's changed since last year so obviously market street is in construction as is the city center park the city center park will only has a small amount of funds for next year just to finish up and close out the contract there's a there's a one-year period at which point the contract is closed out and then there's an additional expenditure in FY 22 and FY 23 that's to allow for the potential of a boardwalk connection between Garden Street and Market Street and the park to be constructed with tiff district financing should the city choose to do so it is also possible that that would be funded through the through the private sector the market street is under construction and would be completed in FY 20 the library senior center City Hall would be completed in FY 21 and that is obviously in design the Williston Road streetscape is also in design we would still need to go to voters for tiff district proceeds to complete that project and is scheduled to be completed in FY 22 Garden Street is in design it's in two segments shown in two segments on this in this year in order to allow that the Dorset Street connection which includes utilities as well as a potential sidewalk on the south side of Garden Street between healthy living and Trader Joe's would be constructed in out years however if that's to be financed with tiff district financing the debt itself would need to be secure to buy that so the pedestrian bicycle access at I-89 exit 14 that is something that's a project that we are currently in scoping for with CCRPC we have applied for grant funding there is a potential that we would begin design in advance of tiff district financing next year in order to position ourselves better for for a grant in the following years but that's something that we would discuss with you at some future date but it's there as a placeholder the performing arts facility is a new project so that's a project that has not been in the CIP in the past it's something that's been discussed with the City Council previously the organization that was developing a feasibility study the South Burlington City Center for the Arts has completed that study and and we would like to discuss that with you at a future meeting so there's sort of a placeholder amount of money in FY 20 to further develop scoping for that project and and then the potential to have it built in 21 and 22 I'm sorry it is not currently I'm sorry it's not I'm sorry 22 and 23 it is not currently tiff eligible it's probably the type of project that would be a good fit for the tiff district however as a funding source I'm not sure that the revenues needed line up really well with the tiff district so that's something that we would like to discuss with you come back on the 17th of December hopefully on the 17th to give an overview of the project and get and get council input on at a high level and then the city center there's the city center park I already discussed but the urban park festival streets city center parking garage and the stormwater wetland mitigation are currently similar projects in that they don't really have a site they really rely on the partnership with the private sector in order to move those projects forward and since we do not have any type of development agreement for those projects at this time they're in there more in case there is an opportunity in the following years and then Willis-dom Road streetscape I'd like to point out that this only represents the portion of the project that we have a grant for which is the south side of Willis-dom Road it does not include any streetscaping on the north side which it while it's in the tiff district because we don't have the the grant funding for that other 50% we're not pursuing it at this time and it's not represented in the CIP here and then and then the indoor recreation facility is a project that was in the city center tiff district as as a component of the downtown based on recent discussions this project is being recommended to move into the administrative portion of the capital improvement program this represents approximately a seven million dollar investment it is also here as a placeholder pending further discussions but it includes additional scoping monies next year so approximately a hundred thousand for construction in 21 FY 21 so summer of 20 I think that's it this just gives you an overview of this reiterates the the first slide the snapshot slide that we showed it and goes through all of the different funding sources for the entire program of projects and then each individual sheet provides additional information that conclude or CIP presentation to you unless if you have any questions jump and fiscal year 21 is that the indoor recreation facility that explains that jump from the general fund or can you yes yes so so right now we would recommend that the indoor recreation facility that the debt for it be modulated through a reserve fund we're not sure that that's we haven't gotten that far into it but at that so at this time it's being shown as part of the reserve fund but then there would need to be an increase in in contribution to the reserve fund if it's to be used so as an option yes I can see we're gonna have more discussion on December 17th and we need to make that motion in order for that to be scheduled in the packet December 17th at 730 is what they are recommending I move that we duly warn a public hearing for the regular council meeting on December 17 2018 at 8 30 p.m. for public comment 8 30 p.m. is what the note says okay December 17 2018 at 7 30 p.m. for public comment on the proposed amendment to the capital improvement program and authorized staff to complete any tasks needed to accomplish same on council's behalf second discussion all those in favor thank you very much you're originally going to do it at 8 30 time but we've had to move the audit and the the valuation from our actuary to the January meeting so I've backed up a little bit so the general fund that night we'd be looking for approval for whatever you feel should stay in fiscal year 20 to become part of the fiscal year 20 budget and there could be some changes before you even see that next so right now it sets at a hundred and fifty thousand dollars and we'll see where we end up through the budget process all our department managers are aware of what the general what the general fund might be capable of between a tax increase and growth in the grand list so we'll continue to we're meeting with managers now on the operations budget so we'll see where those questions leave question for toms do you have any indication what health care increases are going to be this year for next year we're figuring about six percent six percent you're figuring that okay yeah is it an estimate or do you have it's gonna be a pretty definite number we haven't got it in writing okay we've okay been communicated verbally to us six percent is like two hundred three three hundred K increase total no a little over two million for health care costs we'll be our total yeah with the increase right yeah yeah move on ahead of possible to item 10 I know Lauren Glenn stepped out for hopefully just a minute that way she came with a colleague this is the channel 17 annual report and we are fortunate to be filmed by channel 17 at every one of our meetings so is it ironic Charlie does a great job for the record we lost Charlie evening nice to see you all thanks for having us Helen our fearless leader and treasurer the channel 17 trustees is abroad so she's not here today as you know I'm Lauren Glenn Davidian that the executive director of CCTV Center for median democracy and we operate channel 17 town meeting television of which Dan Logan is our channel coordinator and he makes all the programming happen which is he's like a magician so we're here today to give you our regular update I think you have had a chance to read that over we're happy to answer any particular questions and also I sent it all right well let me give you the update then all right I'll check the email maybe it didn't go out I'm sorry so okay start all right so the channel 17 channel 17 I think you all know is funded by cable subscriber dollars and we have expected for years that cable revenue would start to drop planning for this and in 2006 to post your meetings online and store them on a website in servers etc we came to you to ask Charlie doesn't let us play around with a microphone the cover okay how about this one yeah so the coverage of your meetings is is paid for by cable subscriber dollars and that has always been in the case and in 1990 we allocated the amount of coverage that you got as a community and the votes of the representatives of the trustees based on the 1990 subscriber numbers and the result of that was that Burlington gets six meetings that they're covered they also pay for additional coverage South Burlington gets five and the other communities get three so in 2006 when we came to you to ask for financial support to go online to diversify on the internet we asked you for a contribution based on that allocation that breakdown and then in a couple years ago we came back and we said we would like your support so we could go live with your meetings and in the memo which I will resend it it shows you that your live meetings while there may not always be hundreds of people watching every meeting when you have an important one you have hundreds of people watching and probably on average you have between 40 and 70 people at any regular meeting so the value of channel 17 as we know is very situational I mean it's an ongoing record the doors of City Hall are open and when there's something of acute importance the community can tune right into it immediately so we've been able to provide live coverage I think intermittently in South Burlington but we're trying to get it as reliable as possible and that was a great innovation we've been able to continue to provide a level of service while adding an entire digital overlay because we because we're efficient but our costs are also going up so in January of this year Comcasts accountants reclassified some of their income it was a one-time thing but it resulted in a $50,000 decrease in revenue to channel 17 so our request which again is that light in this memo is to ask each of the member municipalities if you would double the amount of revenue that you provide so currently South Burlington I think is providing something in the order of $10,000 a year and we are requesting that you increase that allocation to 20 and it's if each of the member municipalities do this we will be able to make up this $50,000 gap there is always going to be a slow erosion of cable revenue that's just happening that's so it is not unlikely that we will return to you in a future year we may ask you for a steady increase which is what the trustees have advocated for and I think that frankly ultimately the municipalities will be asked to bear more and more of the burden of the production as the cable revenue declines I think that that is true and I think that's a question for you to take up how valuable you believe this service to be but for today what we're laying out is a way to address this one time it's not a one-time request but it's a one-time adjustment in the revenue that's fairly significant and affects our ability to continue to provide service at the level that we have so that's the very short story and there's other background that we're happy to provide and if you want to have time to consider the memo and have us come back and ask questions we're also happy to do that that's no problem no I send it about 10 days ago so it's fine it's I'll resend it it's no problem yeah we I think we'll want to see it we have no action yeah there's no action required because you're part of your budget process yes you have my full support I think it's worth the extra ten thousand dollars you all open the doors to City Hall as you said and I'm all about transparency and I don't think anything is more transparent than being live webcasted right now I would love for our planning commissions to start being recorded too so I don't know if you're looking for more business but I know that's come up a few times I think our conditions should be channel 17 captured we do drb right yeah there is space to increase yeah what is your contribution by Comcast like this year projected versus the previous year it's $50,000 less right but what was their contribution last year do you so they provide essentially 5% for operating and one and a half percent for capital that is split by channel 17 v Kaminar itn so we split that three ways so that number is probably around 650,000 650 yeah and then there's a capital allocation and there's also Burlington telecoms allocation so all together the budgets in the order of 700 750 Comcast to you is 650 roughly that whole group right or or is it just to you or is it to the whole no to us just to you and that's based and that money so was it state or federal legislation that tied it to the number of cable TV subscribers that was so let me just back up there's a cable communications active in 1984 the pass by Congress and they in that link in in that law they said a franchising authority which in Vermont is the Public Utility Commission may require up to 5% for operating and and an additional amount for capital for PENG public educational and government channels and they have to set aside channels to so the Public Utility Commission in 84 said we're going to take even before that was passed for Mont said you need to do this cable companies then that federal law was passed that sort of authorized them so that money is collected from cable subscriber bills all over the state and funds 25 centers that operate about 75 channels the separate charge yes on a bill yeah yeah it's six and a half percent on every bill okay and the cable operators a Comcast BT is not the case but Comcast isn't thrilled about that charge because it makes it harder for them to compete with satellite and other services so they say yeah so that they've never been sort of big fans of this and I also I outlined in the memo and can explain we're currently in litigation with Comcast because the state told them to fund continue to fund us but also to put our channels on the electronic program guide as part of their recent renewal and Comcast did not want to be told that they had to put public access channels on their electronic program guides they went to federal court and the reason you might say that seems so strange why would they fight that and and that it's because essentially it's the fight for the set top box they don't want to be told what to do with their set top box which is where all the data about all our usage of cable content is collected and that information is then purchased and sold to other subsidiaries of Comcast packaged and use this data tracking right so this set top box is sacred space for them and for the state to say you have to put these access channels on your program guide and pay three million dollars to retrofit your your infrastructure to do so they weren't having it so they're in federal court so we don't actually have a current contract with them and they are the state doesn't have a current contract with them so that's part of what we're dealing with with Comcast but they've not opposed the funding funding is not an issue it's these these different kinds of access but this this reclassification that that their accountants did yeah which underfunded you by $50,000 yes did that have to go through the PUC at all it didn't and the PUC wasn't aware that it happened so we brought it to their attention okay and so who's gonna audit Comcast that this accounting change that they've made is actually a legal thing to do we're hoping the PUC will do that okay because as cable TV provider they are utility regulated by the Vermont State Public Utilities Commission but not their rates not their rates right but other aspects yes right but the six and a half percent is regulated right yes and is that on any Comcast bill that's sent to any subscriber regardless of whether they get phone or internet or cable TV or just if they get cable TV channels it's based on a definition of gross revenue related to cable television only so what happens when somebody is a Comcast internet customer and they get their channels from YouTube TV or from sling or from any of those other technologies that are providing access to some local programming as well as to the same cable programming that Comcast provides to you you get no revenue for that no because it's not regular it's it's both Congress and the FCC have passed provisions that make that impossible even though they use the same public rights of way so yes I know what you're thinking I know what everyone's thinking but we don't have access to that revenue in Vermont we had it for one year and then it was deemed illegal to tax internet it's a little frustrating and we've been thinking about this since 1990 so I see your predicament yeah and and you know ultimately the other thing I think that's just important to note and we don't take a lot more time but when we started in 1984 there are 35 channels and we have three of them with 10% so then they went to 75 channels we have three of them now there are hundreds of channels right and they don't actually even they don't even have channels set aside anymore they serve up the content right so we have less real estate for public use than we did in the 1980s not to mention SD and HD so in the course of that time that LG just just described everything has gone into high definition but we are still broadcasting in standard definition on our channels because that has not been allotted to us yet they don't this is the case across the country with other other companies that that have to provide local access well no one's no cable company is except Burlington telecom is ever happy about public access I mean it's a true statement it's it makes it hard for them to compete and it makes it drives the cost up from their perspective and they don't see that local programming is a significant value to their viewers so the answer is yes it's a it's an uphill battle and Comcast has agreed for example to put peg access channels on programming guides through side agreements so they do do it but they're not told to and that's the point that they're arguing and the other thing I would just say is that as a municipality you have the option of of Comcast coming and presenting to you on an annual basis so if you actually want to talk to them they would it's in their contract they would come well they would they they're actually very friendly they're what very friendly they're very but they are they are very friendly and they're you know they they find themselves in a very competitive business and it's and it's difficult it's difficult to balance the public interest with the commercial interest and that's the line that we walk and obviously we're on the side of the public interest your public rights of way essentially are what were used cable companies are using and public access is a payback for the use of the public rights of way is it technologically feasible for you to be able to feed a signal to dish and direct TV they're not regulated in the same way no but is it is it is it technologically feasible to do that yes you could for for a do you have to add infrastructure to that or is it ready to go today you would have to get you would have to make a deal with the satellite companies there aren't provisions like public access on satellite because it's a national service yeah right but but do you have the infrastructure to support that if if you were if you could broadcast a directive in dish over the internet could they pick it up and rebroadcast it it would take so I it's easier said than done okay it's not impossible to do like free speech TV is a channel that uses the satellite services and you can take it down if you if you subscribe to satellite services so we could arrange that but it wouldn't probably be our highest and best use because of who we serve in this community or not don't tend to be satellite people positioning ourselves on the internet is actually been where we've tried to focus the question is how to get the funding right web streams opening up new doors are you looking at possibly asking like NPR or VPR for subscription I don't know about asking that specifically but we've definitely talked internally about a little bit more robust fundraising campaign in the style of NPR and VPR to try to round out our funding as we see cable cutting cord cutting taking away a little bit by little bit and then obviously a little bit steeper drop this year in the 50k we've talked about upping our fundraising campaign so that in that but I mean that's not an immediate thing that's kind of a plan that would offset the slow cord cutting trickle down of our of our funding the 50,000 is why we're here so I think in terms of asking them for funding no but we are kind of going approaching the the fundraising aspect of it the way that they do because at the end of the day they do largely the same kind of thing we do and they have very good funding they have great campaigns they raise a lot of money why don't you just merge with a VPT then? Did they just sell like a bunch of frequencies for like millions hundreds of millions of dollars? Yeah you know we I think partnerships are always on the table for us to think about we haven't thought about working with them because we do long form and they don't like we're this funny hybrid media outfit that produces 1300 hours of programming a year I mean it's really quite significant what we do so there are always opportunities and that's a good idea it's a good reminder. You've got eyeballs out of PC that's a great time to ask for five bucks. Exactly yeah so expanding our fundraising capacity and you know when you see those prices for servers your capital budget you know $19,000 for servers we have more video content than Nokia what we're preserving since 1984 in terms of what's we need servers to do is vast we're more on the order of the police department than I mean so our technological infrastructure is very demanding on top of these revenue pressures so to add to that the archiving for us is not just the storage space and the technical side of it we have beta disks we have VHS that are all in the process of being digitized so we have a part-time staff member working on that so not only are we increasingly producing content like hours and hours and hours every day we're also trying to go through our backlog and digitize all that so that securely archive digitally just like everything else we have. So our great grandkids can watch these videos? Well yeah I mean we have 35,000 hours of footage in our archives and that doesn't include all the meetings that doesn't because we've recycled those meetings we brought those VHS tapes back here we didn't even keep those so we have you know it's it's it as you know and I don't have to convince you of this channel 17 is a community institution and it's a treasure and I think we need to determine together how we're going to support this going forward because the environment is changing and we're we want to work in partnership with folks like VPT and our municipal members who are really you are our closest partners this is why we do this together. I just fear that cable the Comcast cable TV subscriptions are going to continue to fall as 5G grows because between internet source and 5G source it's like the only people left are the court cutters that have you know they're going OTA putting something on a Amazon recast right or on a Tivo Romeo or something or a Tableau whatever they it is right or that's about all that's left because the model that this is such a fascinating history lesson right there's when you have mountains you don't get TV right so so then you have cable TV to get passed not having into having mountains you can't get a signal well then the internet developed and so you have a wired every house that sometimes it's the same wire right it's that's the irony if it's the same wire yeah right but it's got a lot more bandwidth on it and then you have 5G which is going to flutter but it would more wireless signal capacity than we've ever known right and then all of a sudden the mountain broadcasts become moot and I I rule the day that's possible that they may just stop transmitting from Mount Vansfield entirely in I'm thinking 10 to 15 20 years because why bother because everybody already have a 5G connection or they'll have an internet connection why do you have to broadcast to the air I don't know so that's the worst case scenario is that there's no more transmission at all which case there'll be nothing going out over a cable at all well though that they're very little the cable programming is local right so they're taking the feed from national right they're taking they have dishes that receives the content and then sends it out basically you're deriving your feed from channel free news it's essentially right that's the only a few locally produced shows that are you know you can now watch on the internet yeah so the ecosystem is changing so it's a whole paradigm shift and you're stuck in the middle of it so yeah and I think the question is is opening the door to local government still important and that's more than ever right I think that that is true I think we think now more than ever so I will get that memo to you my apologies and if you'd like us to come back or if you have any questions you'd like to submit online we can respond to them pretty quickly so thank you so much it's a pleasure to see you all it's nice to see Megan our wise yeah thank you oh yes barb service please yes one additional comment which is is there a way to create like an email line into when you're having a public forum and it's on that where people could send in comments as the discussion is going on yes yes yes yes then we could send in a comment you wouldn't have to answer it online but you would at least get it live in the throws of the discussion I'd love to read those afterwards just to get an idea where the viewers will are and what the questions are so that is currently some of that does exist on the YouTube's stream there would there is a common section the only thing that would have to be in places there was have to be someone here monitoring it and then addressing those questions in real time so it is very very possible it's just instituting the practice I think is also worth pointing out on YouTube is that it comes the your meeting recording comes with a transcription that's searchable so you can now search your archives based on keywords and find the point in the video where that you know sewer system or sip or city center so that's pretty exciting do you have to pay YouTube for that and we want to get up to a thousand subscribers so subscribe to your self-growing thank you thank you thanks giving to you thanks giving all right make this a call-in show have a phone number I just have to say that I watch PBS news hour on YouTube live and the comments are not glorify glorious I just even for PBS news hour watchers so I just I think I might even if there's just a way that you wouldn't have to read them online you wouldn't have to deal with them but at least it would come in to your discussion but if that becomes really horrible then I'll just send you a collective email when after I watch this when the ran corporation sponsored the public or was given a chance to read their talk about their paper of doing research on legalization marijuana in Vermont and it was broadcast live online and there was a chat window next to it it was hysterical I spent most of the time laughing at people's comments because everything was a double entendre over and over as you can imagine and they know each other because they watch it at the same time so there's like bantering yeah it's quite something to see these online communities address that could shoot into and you would get it at like time you just got one more subscriber thanks thank you bye bye oh item number 11 we are to consider convening is the South Burlington liquor control commission to consider the following applications documentation in the packet I sent it out earlier today most in the mill market deli everything is in order the fire chief and the police chief all of the various questions I will move to go into the South Burlington liquor control commission board second all in favor I moved that we approve the applications for both Southwest grill and no market deli for first-class outside consumption and respectively second-class permit second all in favor I move we come out of the South Burlington liquor control commission board second all in favor I very good short and sweet all right we have a couple of items under other business what's your pleasure Kevin would you like to have the staff input first or the request from Jessica once you cover Jessica's request all right so as you as you know the council received an email from Jessica Luizos the chair of the planning commission after last Tuesday's meeting where we passed IZ the interim zoning bylaw and set into motion the committee nominations and Jessica as requested that we consider adding a member of the planning commission to the prioritization of lands for conservation there's one already on the TDR committee and so I said I would have us discuss it tonight my thoughts are that seems fine she's requesting it yes then if they have a member who's got the time okay very good who has the time yeah right and and I think also the interest and expertise in the conservation of open lands I think that's that's really a goal that was set forward and you just need our agreement or do you need a motion I think you just need an agreement and would you be willing to get back to her and let her know okay very good thank you I also received an email from Dave Kaufman who was in favor of it too okay just you know Helen didn't get back to me yeah where did they go Mediterranean Italy and yeah oh they're on the boat tour staff have some questions are seeking additional guidance on the goal the goals and objectives for the committee the questions are arising that we will need some input from the council about more specific guidance for the committee so not who serves on the committee but what the objectives of the committees are which I think the open space committee is pretty self-explanatory although the means of achieving the outcome that you may desire for open space could be regulatory or it could be it could be purchasing the rights so depending on how that goes we'll assign staff who would would support that I think probably ash Ashley will support the project as a staff member for the open space committee if it gets into regulatory issues Amanda might also be involved in that what I what I thought it was going to be doing was truly just prioritizing which lands you know the first tier the second tier and there are tools in the open space report that specify criteria for prioritization but they don't list specific areas in the city and so I just see them you know using the criteria that has that have been developed by a specialist and the citizens committee and you know I think what they would need help with is identifying areas in the city that meet the criteria and areas that don't I mean I really I think that the question regarding regulations would come when we have the four studies come together and we see where their priorities align and where they don't align I really think it's important for the committee since they're so specialized to really operate in an environment where they do not feel that they have to compromise at the outset on what their their goals are and that you know in an ideal world when we get together whenever that is in April May or June and see the results of these of these studies that there would be some aligning and if there isn't that's when we have to really start compromising and then as the city say okay where are your priorities are we going to buy TDRs are we going to buy land are we going to use that land to build affordable housing are we going to use that land to leave it as is I think that's where the tough questions will come is at the end when we see how these things align and that was the eject the objective I had when I was putting together you know the committee just the composition of the committees the the open space committee does lean on the prior report the question more question may come about the council's intent around the TDR study what I understand and again jump in here is the Planning Commission wrote raised this and my thinking is that when they are developing these new subdivision regulations the PUD regulations that they they want to have a notion of whether or not this you know program that dates from the early 2000s is going to jibe with their new regulations right already we've seen our seven we've seen zoning changes and no change to the TDR program and some some have expressed regret over that to me personally I have heard here in council chamber some people question whether or not all those TDRs will actually be sold so I think that those are questions that need to be reviewed in in the committee how many something that we were all asking Paul Connor how many TDRs you know are remaining how many receiving areas does this correlate and in addition to that if we are thinking about this prioritization of lands for conservation right if we see how those two line or don't align and we see the cost benefit analysis boy you really should slow down on developing those lands furthest from your your infrastructure or you need to make it more dense in this area as opposed to this area I think that's where the TDR the second step you know first step being is it working let's take a status report and then when we see the cost benefit analysis and the prioritization of lands as well as the PUD regulations coming out how can those TDRs be targeted right I mean there are tool and how can we use those TDRs in order to you know identify where in the city we want that development to occur and if that means altering you know those those regulations that govern the TDR program that's what would come out of you know this discussion that's how I foresaw it you know the so what one thing I said that last meeting was that I am advocating for greater transparency in the whole TDR picture right so so personally I don't have a good knowledge or I don't know where there's a map that shows me where there are particular TDR sending properties I know in the southeast quadrant the northern southeast quadrant this are the TDR receiving areas right but I just like to have a thorough accounting of what has happened in the past where things came from where they went and I don't think any of this is secret information I mean I think it's probably you can just walk into the vault right and go through the land sell records sale records right and probably derive unless it's unless there's a special record that's kept just for TDRs themselves and find out where they where they've been used and and also find out how many potential TDRs are left right and then try to look at the city as a map and say if you're going to stay within the southeast quadrant these are how many are left these are where they could be applied if you're going to go outside the southeast quadrant these are where they could possibly apply it be applied right at the same time you're then so it's all an open space question right the question is how do you preserve open space or create open space by managing your density that's what the TDR tried to do was to keep the southern southeast quadrant more open in the northern more more developed so that you preserve the southeast part south southeast quadrant so to speak right so the so the question really is is what's what was the past state what is the current state and what could be the future state of these things and and I think they should we should enumerate those properties that we think and this is the where the prioritization is right look at the individual property owners and the properties and the acreages and the locations and their potential for being conserved or not you know like if it's a 20 acre parcel and most of it's under water you're not going to build there anyway so it's probably going to be conserved because you can't build there right so that all these properties come at the intersection of the quality of the property it's it's positioned within the zoning areas right and its ability to accept or send TDR is all those things right so if we we we need like a crystal ball to help us see that status right if we know that status then we can make a decision about how to change ourselves going forward to to have a better outcome that's that is so they get a desired future state we have a current state then with that it'll help us get us a path to get to the future state did that answer any questions yeah that helps a lot I didn't hear in both of your comments is something that I have heard come up in this realm which is how would expanding the TDR usable region to include other undeveloped properties throughout South Burlington possibly relief the density growth pressure on the southeast quadrant so that's what I thought what Paul was going when he was identified or excluding the transit overlay district to then catch the parts of South Burlington outside of the sq that aren't undeveloped so I don't know if that's what you two are thinking of I just I think that's what is because depending upon whether it's a form-based code area or not I don't know if those densities are already maxed out exactly I don't know if you can get any more density in some of those areas you know I mean like you I don't think you could theoretically get more density than you have like it with Eastwood Commons one two and three they're four-story apartment buildings right or that you have behind all scripts we have four-story apartment buildings or Bartlett Brook apartments four-story apartment buildings I mean maybe you go seven stories but then you have a height limitation right to that point I think that's why he logically excluded the transit overlay districts from the from this interim zoning passage but it's still including all of the on the lands that he determined at 80% of no paved surfaces to now be swept up so in a way I don't know if it's going to go that way but to explore the feasibility of extending the TDRs which would effectively cap the development potential of the properties outside of the Seq the way the TDRs did which could affect those landowners rights but still looking at ways that that might be a way fairly to all owners of properties for the density of the TDRs to be distributed elsewhere throughout the city as something to explore it's good for exploration but making the point that nobody ever promised any property that was a possible TDR center that they would ever be able to sell all their TDRs the city has never promised that to my knowledge correct me if I'm wrong okay so so so that puts the onus on the land owners to determine what they're going to do with their TDRs at any point in time right so you know if for example you know land prices are too high and there's no demand for it those TDRs can be stranded for 20 or 30 years before something happens we just don't know but I just want to reiterate that fact that there is no guarantee for any TDR holder that they can sell it well I suppose you could also use the TDRs to purchase something other than density there may be other values right that that you could apply a TDR to that aren't specifically denser it could be impact fees could be impact fees I mean to be right could be other values that they could be applied against other than just that is similar to the same commercial for a value to the right right these lands and I'm not dismisses of that I'm just saying that from a market-based approach the way this thing was written nobody was ever promised anything period okay and it's not to take away from the potential it's just that's what this whole system is going to this this study is going to make transparent all of these things right and and you know the complaints that we had from the people were we didn't know that land was for sale we didn't know you know and part of that is true and part of that is they could have found out easily if they had asked the right people if the property of no one farm was for sale in the first place right because obviously the you know the developer found out it was for sale and bought it right but the point is more transparency probably lends itself to better decision-making in long-term for what's best for the city not just for a small group of investors or for a small group of landowners or whatever it is right good discussion good thank you that helps yeah no no I think we've got I just I can't really so moved I heard two motions I need a second second all in favor thank you very much thank you very much another hour let's see I think we got everything signed I think always have got all the signatures right I think so okay you're not the only one okay well a lot of people go on way street and don't look where they're going and that's pretty disturbing pretty disturbing yeah