 You are listening to Make Change Happen, the podcast from the International Institute for Environment and Development, IIED. In this episode, host Liz Carlisle talks with colleagues and international partners about the concept of biocultural heritage, what it means and why it will be so important in the major upcoming 2021 negotiation conferences for those climate change and the Convention on Biological Diversity. To Make Change Happen, I'm Liz Carlisle, I'm your podcast host and I hope you had a chance to listen to our last podcast on loss and damage. It was a really interesting one and full of contentious issues. Similarly, in this episode today, we're going to explore biocultural heritage. This is an equally important and contentious issue and one that will be critical to the success of the new post-2020 Global Biodiversity Framework and this framework is going to be agreed at the next meeting of the Convention on Biological Diversity in China in October. Welcome to our guests who are with us today. We have Joji Carino from the Philippines, Alejandro Argumedo from Peru, Pierre de Plessy from Namibia and my colleague principal researcher here at IED, Cristina Svederska. Before we start, I'd like to give a chance for my guests to introduce themselves. Joji. I'm Joji Carino. I'm Ibaloy Igorot from the Cordillera Philippines. Baguio City is my hometown and I'm speaking from here. I'm Senior Policy Advisor with Forest Peoples Program and I've been following the CBD meetings over many years, working very closely with the International Indigenous Forum on Biodiversity, which brings all the Indigenous participants together. Alejandro, would you like to say a little bit about who you are and what you work on? Good morning. I'm Alejandro Argumedo, a Quechua native from Southern Peru. I am the International Coordinator of the Mountain Indigenous Peoples Network. It's an international network that brings together communities living in mountains around the world and more members of Association Andes, a small NGO based in Cusco, Peru. I also work closely with six communities in the sacred valley of Cusco in an area known as the Pudeo Park. Thank you. Pierre, would you introduce yourself to our listeners? I'm Pierre de Plissi. I used to work in Namibia with Indigenous people in local communities on the sustainable harvesting of Indigenous plant products and then because of that I got involved in CBD negotiations and my real focus is on how to make sure that people sustainably benefit from looking after biodiversity. And finally, Christina. Yes, I'm Christina Swaderska. I'm a principal researcher at IIED working on biocultural heritage. And so that's a really nice place to start, Christina. Can you tell us what is biocultural heritage? So biocultural heritage is the interlinked biological and cultural heritage of Indigenous peoples and local communities. Indigenous peoples and local communities have been conserving biodiversity for millennia and today they conserve most of the world's remaining biodiversity on their lands and territories and they do this based on their traditional knowledge and the cultural values that have been passed down through generations, not based on science. So Indigenous peoples have a holistic world view where biodiversity and culture are are inextricably linked and cannot be separated. So biocultural heritage reflects this world view. It's really derived from this holistic world view. It includes wild and domesticated biodiversity, Indigenous peoples' territories, traditional knowledge, cultural and spiritual values and customary laws and Indigenous and traditional languages which are critical for maintaining and transmitting this rich biocultural heritage. So who better to tell us more about this? I think Alejandro, this is very much rooted from the work you've been doing and indeed is your concept biocultural heritage. Please do add and amplify this story for us. Yes, as Cristina has mentioned, this concept of biocultural heritage comes from living lived experience from Indigenous peoples. For Indigenous peoples what we term as a biocultural heritage is this link where every element of nature has a soul, a spirit and its sacred. And this intense relationship with these elements that we call biodiversity is what makes a significant difference in human-nature relations, in particular because it nurtures this respect that Indigenous peoples have for other beings and what we call nature. So this quality have allowed Indigenous peoples to craft long-term strategies for conservation and which if you see those areas or those places where Indigenous peoples live, you're going to see that those places have adapted to changes, still hold the majority of the biodiversity world. So through the concept we want to learn those lessons about stewardship and about how the values associated to the concept that Cristina has mentioned can help the rest of the world to go back to nature. So my impression is from what you say that this absolutely intricate link between people and nature is so critical but for many of us we forget that. We're looking at biodiversity or conservation separately from people. We tend to put it in a box. Alejandra Cristina, how has that been your experience in terms of trying to unwrap this issue and to make it more understandable for people? In my case, for a long time communities have used this approach, this way of organizing to manage their communities, have a governance that reflects this respect for nature through bringing those values into their customary laws. So the way people govern their food, their natural resources, their relationship between communities are based in that respect that we have for nature. Thank you. So I can see that this is a really critical, important aspect of this new tenure strategy. Cristina, what are the issues that you're particularly concerned about in 2021 in this kind of super year of global policy processes? Yes, well the issue at global level is that biodiversity and culture are still dealt with separately by separate conventions and separate policies and institutions. And that poses some challenges for Indigenous peoples and local communities who are managing and stewarding biodiversity at local level. In some cases the approach is taken to conserve nature and biodiversity, exclude them from management and so it can have very strong impacts that are negative on their livelihoods and their territories and their cultures. And so there's a real need to have a more integrated approach in terms of the policies and institutions that operate at global and national level. So that this relationship, this very close relationship between Indigenous peoples and biodiversity can be properly supported and so that they can continue their stewardship role in conserving biodiversity. And this year we have a big opportunity around the Biodiversity Convention because a new global biodiversity framework is being negotiated and governments will meet in Kunming in China in October to agree a new strategy and set of targets for biodiversity for the next decade. And it's going to be really important that those targets are not just top down and you know led by governments but they actually recognize the leadership role of Indigenous peoples and traditional knowledge and take a holistic approach that recognizes the need to protect biocultural heritage as a whole and not just biodiversity on its own. So Joji, I know that much of your work focuses on the global biodiversity framework and as a global strategy I know you also feel that there are a number of difficult areas in it. So what do you see as the main challenges? The Convention on Biological Diversity and its 10-year strategies have separated the conservation of gene species and ecosystems, the so-called components of biological diversity from the integrated and interrelated cultural systems of Indigenous peoples and local communities who have nurtured and managed most of the world's biodiversity. This underlying dualism between nature and culture reflected in the goals and targets of the post-2020 biodiversity strategy currently under negotiation is a major challenge. Indigenous peoples manage our ancestral lands and waters holistically but the underlying scientific and technical framework of the proposed strategy separating conservation from sustainable use and benefits and separating it from traditional knowledge and Indigenous governance really makes it challenging to influence the current negotiations. For example, target one which seeks to identify spaces and places for conservation fail to mention that many key biodiversity areas overlap Indigenous territories. These are not wilderness or natural areas but rather well-managed territories with good conservation outcomes. It is precisely that relationship and application of traditional knowledge that has biological diversity well preserved. Now target two which seeks to expand the global area coverage of conserved areas to 30% of lands and waters must respect and ensure legal recognition of Indigenous peoples' lands and waters as a distinct category of land use not to be subsumed under state protected areas or other categories of conservation. These are grave risks for our human rights if these are not incorporated into target two. Yes, I fully agree with Joji. There's a real lack of integration of Indigenous peoples and local communities and traditional knowledge across the targets. It's not just target one and target two but in fact 18 out of the 20 targets don't mention Indigenous peoples and traditional knowledge and we know that most of the world's biodiversity is located on lands managed by Indigenous peoples and local communities so that really poses questions raises questions you know how effective is this framework going to be if Indigenous peoples aren't recognised in the targets and in the implementation process and we know from IPEZ the Intergovernmental Panel on Biodiversity and Ecosystem Services that biodiversity is better conserved on Indigenous peoples' lands than on any other lands so it's really important that Indigenous peoples are central to all of the targets. So is there anything here that we're doing right I mean if 18 of these targets are not going in the right direction this site seems like an uphill struggle. Well under the previous 2011 to 2020 biodiversity strategy only 10 percent of parties included Indigenous peoples and local communities international biodiversity strategies and target 18 which was focused on traditional knowledge and customary sustainable use was not met. However today I think there is much greater awareness about the important contributions of Indigenous peoples and local communities to all the objectives of the CBD and this is reflected in targets 19 which recognizes the role of traditional knowledge for public policy research and education and target 20 which recognizes the rights of Indigenous peoples over their resources and to full and effective participation in decision-making. I think this also reflects the overwhelming research now that shows the very central role that Indigenous peoples and local communities have for biodiversity and nature but exactly how targets 19 and 20 will inform and even transform the other targets is still unknown and still needs to be negotiated. So talking to either of you Christina or Joji what do you think that our listeners should be looking out for in terms of how those things might be changing how the influence of those two more positive targets are going to have what should people be looking for over the next few months? Well for example there are targets on sustainable use of wildlife. Target four states that by 2030 ensure that the harvest trade and use of wild species of flora and fauna is legal at sustainable levels and safe. Notice that in many countries where Indigenous peoples rights are not fully recognized customary hunting for example and use of forest resources are illegal. In effect community sustainable use practices are banned and not adequately safeguarded under these targets. They are seen as encroaching on state lands or protected areas. So this is another manifestation of how laws and policies are not yet informed and respectful of traditional knowledge and Indigenous peoples biological and cultural heritage. So we should be aware of such targets which because they make Indigenous peoples invisible can actually be harmful. Christina what do you think people should be looking for have you anything to add there? I think there's a lot to be done in terms of reforming existing laws which do not allow customary sustainable use of biodiversity by Indigenous peoples and local communities whether it be forests or wildlife. I also would like to emphasize that integrating targets 19 and 20 into the rest of the targets will be absolutely crucial to the success of the global biodiversity targets and ensuring that they are properly implemented because governance is really at the heart of the success of the implementation of these targets. So I think going forward that is really what we need to look at in the negotiations. Great thank you. So Pierre we've heard from Alejandro and Joji already about the importance of biocultural heritage. In your role as technical advisor to the African group in the CBD negotiations does what they've been saying ring a bell you know are the challenges familiar? Yes absolutely they are familiar and they are even more familiar when you look at the fact that this strategic plan this framework is actually only one step towards achieving the 2050 vision for biodiversity which is to live in harmony with nature and Indigenous people and local communities have been living in harmony with nature for millennia and are you know really the creators of much of the biodiversity that we now seek to protect and also I mean for my work that I've done in African communities I've seen firsthand how people create biodiversity not only does conserve it but through their cultural practices actually increase the diversity of nature around them and so yes I completely agree with them that recognizing the rights of Indigenous people in local communities and supporting them to continue their sustainable management practices and and really live there biocultural heritage will be a key part to not only meeting the targets for 2030 but actually living in harmony with nature by 2050. I think one of the most important things we need to do is to recognize that our current strategy for conservation is not working and that it won't work until we really make sure that the benefits are shared with the people who manage the environment in a sustainable way and build on that relationship between the people who still know that they are part of nature who are not yet divorced from nature and find ways of supporting those lifestyles that drive the diversity and conserve the diversity. So all this talk of targets I mean you know targets are all very well but it sounds like these issues are much bigger than that. Yes indeed and that might be why we failed to meet the last set of targets because there's no strategy that's all just a shopping list of things we think should be done with no plan about how do you go about achieving that in the real world and I think one of the things that is bedeviling our attempts to do that is the fact that we forget that the Convention on Biological Diversity was not primarily meant to be a nature conservation treaty but was actually meant to be a sustainable development treaty and the logic of the CBD is that if you fairly and equitably share the benefits of the sustainable use of biodiversity then you get good biodiversity outcomes but that has not been implemented and from the way the current targets are formulated and the theory of change in the current draft of the framework it seems to me unlikely that we will achieve that shopping list that wish list of targets. So is it a question of trying to sort of fit a square peg into a round hole or do you think that by raising the what are these essential issues around biocultural heritage the combination of bringing local knowledge a traditional knowledge and years and years of cultural experience with the science do you think we can turn this around? Well I think that the COVID pandemic has actually caused a big enough shock to the system that people are really seriously now re-evaluating the relationship between humans and nature and my sincere hope is that we will learn from Indigenous people in local communities that that separation between humans and nature is actually a very big part of the problem and that we will return to our moral as stewards of nature because it's you know the thing wonderful thing about biodiversity is that it's fruitful and it multiplies right if you create habitat for it if you create space for it and if you create a cultural variety for it to interact with then you do get not only the conservation of biological diversity but you get that continued evolution of life and the interaction of humans with life that you know really drives towards sustainability. Do you have any good examples of how this can work? Yes actually I do. In Namibia after independence there was a change in the law that gave Indigenous people in local community the right to own the wildlife in their areas it recognized their stewardship and it gave them the right to benefit from the sustainable use of wildlife in their area and that created a situation where the community started looking after those resources as if you know as if they were their own whereas before they belonged to the state and it wasn't really it wasn't really a community a community effort and so the outcome the outcome of that was that within a very few years we saw an enormous increase in wildlife in Namibia like 400% for some species in some areas and perching went right down because people were policing the area much more effectively the nature conservation could ever do it and not only that but they started you know also looking after the whole ecosystem in a much more integrated way because of the recognition that was afforded to their traditional laws and their traditional ways of managing their environment so I believe that you know if you were to if you were to take a rights-based approach and confirm the ownership and the rights and the stewardship of Indigenous people in local communities over their natural resources would in fact be one of the very few ways that we have of realistically getting good biodiversity conservation outcomes so there's obviously a huge amount to do at the global level Alejandro can I come back to you I think I'm right in saying that you may be a little skeptical that we'll see any changes to the post 2020 targets but I know you feel strongly that biocultural heritage has a really central part to play in fundamental changes at the local level could you give us some examples of where you've seen this happen in your work I think your work in the potato park for example can offer some really good insights the communities in the potato park have used this their own vision of how to balance the needs of humans the needs of the wild elements of we conceive need respect what's called wild diversity and the needs of the sacred elements of nature in a way that the balance is negotiated negotiated so that when we be the good living the holistic living can be the goal of this approach so I think what I want to say is that there is other ways that conceive what we call sustainability in a way that highlight the values of respect for nature and those values transform into rules and those rules apply to the communities so that communities can continue to have a life of a deep relationship with what they consider a sacred what they consider have rights including the mountains participate in the in the management of the larger landscape because mountains in in our belief have are more intelligent than humans they have they make decisions they can pass on that all knowledge to humans and so that the communities can continue to have access to water and medicinal plants pasture and so on and so forth so these type of approaches are still very vibrant in many indigenous communities around the world and so that I think there is opportunity here that wild diversity convention can bring these experiences and make them to policy see what can be learned from there I believe that there is you know this divorce between the reality in the field and policy that's developed at the global level where you know from the interest of northern and southern countries to uh the political conflicts that exist among the different sectors apply out in detriment of what actually is happening at the local level and if we bring into it the current crisis of COVID and what we are facing with regards to climate change and the economical hardships that people are going through then you have a situation where these conventions are not responding in a realistic way so I believe that while the aspirations of their post 2020 are commendable the reality of people in the ground right now that depends on biodiversity it's it's not being looked in the way that it should be I mean like a you know to get out of this crisis countries are pushing for the expansion of extractive industries from mining to uh big plantations which of course it's going to bring us deeper into this problem we are facing I mean if we want to produce enough unhealthy food if we want to continue conserving biodiversity maintain the integrity of the ecosystems because of water because of all the adaptation needs that we have in terms of climate change to help to cut emissions while we try to find some sustainability we have to look more what's happening in the ground rather than the macroeconomics and the big politics worldwide right and just have an approach that's purely science-based that's really interesting Christina have we got sort of similar parallels from any of your other work it's a an african perspective or from asia do you see that this kind of same strength of integration happening elsewhere there is particularly striking um integration with nature in in the andes in terms of that philosophy being really strong and alive in everyday life but it's still evident as well in in indigenous peoples in africa and asia this notion of balance with nature is one of the core indigenous values that you see in many different cultures across the world many different indigenous cultures um there's balance with nature and reciprocity as well so it's a two-way thing you know if you take from nature there's an obligation to give back um so yes these values are evident but not always as strong as they as they still are in the andes but they're still there and unfortunately they are being undermined by mainstream economic development programs by education systems even by conservation systems there's a there's a real need to look at those drivers of change and make sure that they don't undermine these values that are conserving nature so thank you for that i think we've had a couple of examples in this program where we've got really good things to learn and good ways in which we can change our practices so at the end of the podcast uh this podcast is all about make change happen so i i like to ask our guests what is a change they would like to see so joji i'm going to start with you well i haven't been together with many of my indigenous colleagues for over a year and when we are together we always gain strength so i hope that the situation will improve a lot and we will be able to have these important cbd meetings together with colleagues from around the world pierre in this in this big year for the cbd what would be the change that you would like to see happen well i would really really like to see the world going back to indigenous wisdom and understanding the unity of all of life and get around this division between people and nature and re-establish the reciprocal relationship that exists between people in nature that relationship of stewardship of gratitude not greed of caring for the earth like it is a relative which i think is at the bottom of indigenous ecological wisdom if we could learn from that then we might well end up living in harmony with nature Christina what would be the change that you hope to see this year that can really drive forward what we all want to get to yes as Alejandro was saying indigenous peoples have incredible wisdom which is really important for conserving nature and for sustainable development and for climate change adaptation and for integrating environment and development and i think that the one change i would like to see is for indigenous peoples to be put at the center of decision making processes at the moment it's very much governments that make those decisions and they generally represent scientific views and western world views and indigenous peoples who have this incredible wisdom for conserving nature are not part of the decision making processes that are you know developing the new biodiversity framework they're very much on the margins and i think that really has to change in order to get traditional knowledge and science working hand in hand to address these big global challenges thank you Alejandro you've talked about a lot of change changes that are really needed and i can see that it's going to be a long journey but is that if there was only one thing you could change this year what what would that change be i have this strong feeling that because of this crisis we're living and people having you know that need to connect with nature there's going to be more intersection and feelings of respect for nature that's my hope and oh a good thing that's going to happen out of this but in the long in the long run i would like to see that science and traditional knowledge work more closely than that evidence is created in a more participatory way that considers also that the rich um wisdom and science and knowledge that indigenous peoples are maintained and that's pretty much needed in the end this we have this legend is the legend of the condor and the eagle but 500 years ago the legend says that the condor and the eagle used to fly together in the skies with the arrival of the europeans there was a system an eagle fly away and created its own society that was strongly focused on accumulation and the condor just was left with his traditions of having a more spiritual way and 500 years later which are these days we believe that the eagle has the logical mind a war structural type of views and the and the condor that has the heart a more spiritual life will come together and this new world of uh respect and diversity and you know a vision for the future together will come that means that uh the eagle represents science in our view and the condor represents traditional knowledge and they need to come together and fly together again so that um we can have solutions for this crisis that we're facing thank you Alejandro that provides a really good picture i think for our listeners the condor and the eagle flying together that's what we're aspiring to you can find out more about this podcast our guests and their work at iied.org slash podcast where you can also listen to more episodes you can leave us feedback or follow the series at soundcloud.com slash the iied that's soundcloud.com slash tge iied the podcast is produced by our in-house communications team for more information about iied's work please visit us online at www.iied.org