 Hi, everyone. Good evening. My name is Kate Orff. I'm a professor at Columbia and director of the Urban Design Program, and I could not be more excited about this evening's program. Narrative change for the Green New Deal. First off, we have an incredible group of speakers, anyone of which singularly would be a transformative event and we have them together and in conversation. Our event will, we have Heather McGee, Rinku Sen, Molly Crabapple, to share some of their thoughts about narrative change. And then we're also joined by educators and terrific colleagues, Jeanette Kim, Billy Fleming and Keller Easterling. And amazing group. And thank you each and every one of you for participating. So, now that I've got that big welcome out of the way, I wanted to also welcome all of the students across the United States and actually across the globe, who are participating in the Green New Deal Super Studio. Hopefully, many of you are on the line and, and part of the Super Studio Network. So just a couple of just quick notes on the Green New Deal Super Studio. This is an initiative that really started, I know Billy Fleming's on the line, but really started from a conference that Billy and his partner at Penn, Daniel O'Dell, Donna Cohen, developed a Green New Deal event. Seven years back, and it was just a great sort of framing around how can really, what is the role of design in the Green New Deal and how can we sort of change our game moving forward. And so props to you Billy, I think I remember having either a conversation backstage with you or on the phone at a certain moment where we were like, hmm, maybe every landscape architect and urban designer across the United States will be talking about the Green New Deal. And in fact, I think it's, it's, it's this initiative for the Super Studio is sort of a step in that direction so anyway, very excited for all the students who are who are participating tonight and good luck on all of your projects. And so I also wanted to just give a shout out to our partners at the Landscape Architecture Foundation, ASLA, CELA, and every other sort of, you know, landscape architecture group under the sun it's truly an exciting broad front initiative that signals how we need to think and act and work differently in a more collective and collaborative context, moving forward to really kind of bring forward the changes that are needed for climate change and decarbonization and justice and jobs. So basically, having participated on a number of these Green New Deal Super Studios events. I've really seen the use of new tools and formats in student work in these schools across the country. And I've also noticed how students are increasingly using storytelling or turning to storytelling to sort of integrate their designs into a realm of advocacy activism and policy. And using data visualization to speculative efficient speculative fiction to to interviews and social media campaigns. So to me this only proves how much multimedia storytelling is necessary and is a powerful way to mobilize toward this more just and equitable future. You know, it's all connected our climate, our economy, the structural racism that is underpinning the systems that that that have created the situation. And each of our guests individually and together of course bring their, their expertise to bear on these, these challenges and we must as designers rise to meet these challenges and whatever way we can. In addition to the issues, all of our guests understand the power of storytelling and narrative and bring a unique perspective we take storytelling incredibly seriously in the urban design program. And, and so I am very pleased that our long time and beloved professor custom shepherd has agreed to moderate the conversation this evening. And, and if you don't know about custom class called reading near urbanism. It is a legendary class amongst our graduates and he is a loved professor and a really someone who has been a valued colleague and it's really changed and impacted that our curriculum. So before I turn it over to you, Kassim, I wanted to I'm in this, been reading all we can say if I'm in this book but I, Heather has this great quote in the book. And so she writes inequality and climate change are the twin challenges of our time and more democracy is the answer to both. So I'm very excited to have this group together. Thank you all for joining and Kassim over to you. Thank you for moderating. Have a great evening everyone enjoy the event. Thank you so much Kate and thank you all so much for being with us, our panelists as well as the 241 and rising number of people who are joining us in the audience. And as, as Kate was saying, you know, our guests tonight bring a wealth of expertise, reporting from the front lines of wars, designing solutions to economic and racial inequality, and teaching the next generation of architects landscape architects urban designers and planners, the importance of using design to mobilize for urgent structural change in the urban design program, which I've been a proud part for for many years now thanks to Kate extraordinary leadership. We're now in our sixth year of an annual event convening artists, advocates and activists to share the process and the potential of storytelling as an applied strategy to create the diverse coalitions that we need to bring about the big changes that we see in how we produce, consume and distribute energy, and also big changes to how we conceive of the role of government and the role of collective action. This is going to require all hands on deck, especially those of you who are currently studying and honing your craft as designers. I wanted to give start the evening off by hearing from some inspiring designer educators on how they have guided students to envision a more equitable future by design, not only in the context of climate change, but also in the context of equity, more broadly as Kate was saying it's all connected and I think both the student work that you're going to see in the first half hour of this program, and the presentations and panel discussion and the second will really sort of bring to bear the extent to which it is all connected, and we have to have a broad understanding of what equity means. After the presentation of student work, as I mentioned, we will invite three inspiring women or some of their work, blending art, advocacy, activism and journalism. And finally, we'll all reconvene for a conversation, hopefully have some time to answer questions from the audience. You can put your questions into the Q&A at any point, and we will try and get to them. But, you know, another aspect of this that Kate mentioned that I think is a really important piece is really the idea that all of us as educators really want to seed conversation that goes beyond any one event or any one studio or any one program, and really try and create the kind of connections between students that can enable them to keep building on this work, whether it's in the educational context or beyond. So please keep in touch with each other and and follow along with the work. So, first up, we have Billy Fleming, who is the Wilkes family director of the Ian McCark Center and the Weissman School of Design at Penn. He's also a senior fellow with Data for Progress, where he's focused on the built environment impacts of climate change, resulting most prominently in the publication of a low carbon public housing policy briefs tied to the Green New Deal for Public Housing Act, which was introduced in 2018. His students work, which we're about to hear about, takes a regional approach to achieving some of the aims of the Green New Deal's jobs, justice and decarbonization agenda by producing a set of futures which speculate on what the material reality of an implemented Green New Deal may look like. So Billy, I would love to hear more about your studio and share with us some of the student work. Thank you. Great. Thanks so much for that introduction and just for hosting me. This is such a lovely occasion and I can obviously talk forever about how much I admire and have learned from all the folks who are going to be on this panel with me tonight, but I'm sure we will have time for that as we get into the conversation. So I'm just going to kind of get us going. And I'll say, you know, for us in the center, as Kate mentioned, I've been working on this for a little while. And so just finished the second sort of three planned studios around this question of how and where design fits into this larger conversation around the Green New Deal. And I've done so I think by taking Congressman Ocasio-Portez pretty seriously at her work that, you know, we should view the Green New Deal as it was kind of introduced to us, so at least to the public in H.O.109 as a framework for collaboration. And the starting point for what we might think of as a request for proposals. And when we look at what is literally written in H.O.109, there's a lot in there for folks in the built environment professions to chew on. And so we're going to go through this full list, right, but thinking through, you know, the challenges of retrofitting every existing building from maximum water and energy efficiency, remediating every hazmat and ground filled site in the U.S. and so on and so on. Each one of these represent just massive spatial challenges that might not necessarily be led by designers, but we'll have to require a different way of working for us. You know, for us in the center to be able to do this work well, felt like we needed to go back to the central reference of the Green New Dealers, which is obviously the New Deal. And we're looking here at the Norristan in Tennessee, the kind of, you know, first project in the larger system of the Tennessee Valley Authority. And it's the kind of project and the kind of system that's often trumpeted by designers of what's possible through the kind of state craft or state building that was present during the era of the New Deal. And it's also important to recognize right that I think leaning so heavily into this reference has caused a lot of problems for a lot of problems for us in the design. One of the reasons I think it's been emphasized so heavily is because it was run by architects and landscape architects at the time, and we love nothing more if not self mythology. But the New Deal itself was not about really was about a lot less or a lot of other things other than just building beautiful hydroelectric infrastructure like this. It's not about itself to kind of borrow from from Brent Siebel here in his really wonderful essay on the TVA and the Georgia Power Authority, really hit the ground with no theory of power. Right, so around the Norristan we just looked at, meant that despite black residents constituting over 7% of the population around the dam they may have just about 2% of the workers qualified for TV jobs. Electrification promised significant improvements in standards of living for some rural Americans. The pernicious inequities of Jim Crow were largely untouched. And this was really important for us to sort of sit with thinking through the kind of built environment legacy of the New Deal. And here we're looking at about 16,000 or so of the 55,000 physical built environment projects that were produced by the alphabet agencies of the New Deal. Things that range from those that are quite familiar like the TVA and the Appalachian Regional Authority to almost every piece of sanitary sewer infrastructure west of the Mississippi. Any number of post offices, public schools, public housing, all kinds of civic infrastructure, the things that sit together every day life. And to understand how the New Deal state sort of worked you have to also understand that again it carried with it no theory of power. It was essentially a massive federal transfer of funds to state and local government that really reproduced whatever power structure it found on the ground. So in Minneapolis this meant, you know, it was a whole way of lengthening and strengthening their municipal, their municipal socialism coalition. And in places like the Tennessee Valley have lengthened and strengthened the coalition propped up by Jim Crow and made it to last longer and become more vicious than it might have been otherwise. But that was huge infusion of federal money till it made it. And so in thinking through, you know, that built environment legacy, what every New Deal might have to get right about space and place and how and where we live that the New Deal got very wrong. Began the first of this sort of three year sequence by asking students in my first studio to kind of wrestle with two key questions. One of which was, you know, what are the parts of the country that from a technical technical perspective, we have to get right to achieve the jobs justice and decarbonization goals of the New Deal. And from the more limited set of places, what are the ones you would put at the front of the line, either because they represent places that are historically at the back of the line if they're aligned at all for federal investment. Or because they are for you a chance to grow your political coalition by making the material benefits of something like degree New Deal, obvious, fairly often to folks who live there. And they could have obviously chosen many places from that kind of a brief, pretty, pretty obviously also cancels out places like Lower Manhattan who are going to figure this out where they're without this kind of ideation. But they settled ultimately on three I think pretty wise choices, Appalachia, the Lower Mississippi Delta, and the Corn Belt of the Midwest. And rather than asking them to try and solve a bunch of problems of which there's no shortage but also of which design is really never going to be the sort of deliverer of solutions to the kinds of political economic problems that have given us the world we now find ourselves living in. Ask them to think creatively about how they communicate and engage a larger audience with their ideas. And so really led by Tiffany Hudson here about a number of other students in that first studio, thinking about a sort of branding campaign for the roll out of a you know cooperative agriculture social housing and broadband infrastructure program and Appalachia. This, you can see the names of all the students from that studio here at the bottom of this drawing, especially from Zach Kamaker, really thinking about the full, the full build out of a clean energy social housing and low carbon leisure infrastructure program in Appalachia so looking here at you know, as a clean energy and other sorts of systems interplayed on the ground here in a particular range of the mountains and doing it in a way that is pretty intentionally geared towards the public and ordering on and the hopes of not creating drawings that only other designers can understand. And then others and this, this, you know, set of drawings here from Rosasetic also in that first studio is starting to think about ways that you could follow people through free and post renewal life of the Midwest. I'm thinking through its, its impact on, you know, the manufacturing industry agriculture industry and other parts of that region. And again, you can see here on the top right here in the very back there's Katie against one of the big walls here, who was generous enough to spend some time with us at this final review, should also say a Randall Martin who's in a bunch of these pictures also at Columbia has been involved in all of these studios kind of from start to finish and it's been just a wonderful, I think, critic for this work, but as students to think not about producing a set of drawings that you would expect to find at a final review towards everyone looks at the work and then they, you know, sort of talk about themselves and some of the students work but to think about curating a public exhibition of ideas. This one bringing in the better part of 150 or so people from across Philadelphia and kind of the Northeast together to talk about the larger context in which all of this work was produced, and to think about how we might communicate ideas about the Green New Deal in these three regions that could allow people to find themselves in their communities and it and change the frame of conversation for more scarcity and airplanes and hamburgers to one of dignity and public luxury for all. And in this second studio which you know Kate mentioned I won't spend a ton of time on which is now also part of the Green New Deal super studio decided to go back to those same three regions but to focus in really acutely on three industries the industrial agriculture system and fossil fuel system and the partial system. Lots of reasons for that one of the most important, you know for this conversation is that in the aftermath of George Floyd's murder. The National Organizing Tables for the Movement for Black Lives in the Green New Deal network began to merge some of their operations and one of the products of that merger was identifying these three industries. So the key targets to take on in the fight for Green New Deal. So they became the kind of core of this second studio back in Appalachia the Mississippi Delta and the Horn Belt to the Midwest. And as students in there to sort of move through this process of creating atlases and manifest those to help them understand the political economy of each region. Connecting then with local movements on the ground who some of them we'd identified before the studios and with them they actually sort of entrepreneur really found to develop some of their ideas and digital and design products that would come out of the studio and then to build this which I won't make you watch the whole thing. But for folks who want to just you don't get enough screen time so you're just dying to look you know some more at your phone or your computer. Have them build kind of a digital exhibition a website DG and EWS includes kind of what you're looking at here a clear timeline that helps to help them help our studio think about the kind of world that would that would be required to make all of these different things possible. And then really focused on on developing a number of different tools again aimed at taking the really often much more radical than anything that can come out of a typical design studio demands of these movements on the ground and creating the kinds of images of the future that could spatialize and aestheticize some of those demands. And in Appalachia, you know what you're looking at here are a number of correctional facilities buildings built the top former coal mines. And one of the sort of first things that came out of the Atlas building in that region. From the students here at the bottom of the screen was the finding that which is probably not news to folks in Appalachia what was news to us in the studio that the plurality use for abandoned coal mines in Appalachia today is the construction of some sort of personal facility or correctional facility. Lots of reasons for that we can talk about in the Q&A I'm sure, but it produces a landscape that you know it looks a lot like this. It's often called of course well I'll go reflected here in Appalachia and led them to create you know a number of I think of really concise and precise sort of diagrams and thinking through how systems of extraction and disposal sort of overlay themselves in the landscape there, and ultimately rather than again producing a bunch of solutions for I think you know the problems that are much larger than what design can truly address, they produced a bunch of fools. So looking here at a workbook for dreaming from a Makoba model after the book, the workbook fumbling towards repair from Maria Makoba and Shira Hassan. And here you know blended basically the goal for a was to try and democratize the design process and give exercises and information and put it into the hands of folks in Appalachia to help them, you know, determine their own future without, you know, folks like us having to come in or wanting to come in. Other folks, this is really like by Amber Hassan and Anna Rastow, you know, looking at the repurposing of decommissioned prison facilities so in a world in which prisons are no longer in existence, what might we do with all of these infrastructure in the case of prison facilities, the massive energy production transmission and storage power that exists every prison facility built for about 99 or so has to be able to island itself off from the grid so they were thinking either how does that actually work with an agree new deal agenda. And I won't spend a ton of time on the Deltas sort of analytical work just to say obviously here they focused on the intersection of the planter and prison economies and a goal for the Louisiana State Penitentiary. And as a method focused on develop developing portraits with a number of different groups on the ground there, including leaders from Chickasaw Nation, and then also a variety of other other fossil fuel. Thank you for taking leaders in a region and produce these of many other things these kinds of zines walking people through the kind of future that might be possible, sort of post prison post industrial ag and post fossil fuel systems in the Gulf Coast. And then to just wrap us up really quickly here in the Midwest, they focused on developing a whole sort of sweet and different totally different storytelling devices, including a cookbook, which you know, imagine the Midwest is kind of a huge receiving zone for the 10s of millions if not more climate refugees are expected to sort of be displaced as sea levels rise and all manner of time a disaster sort of unfold, and thinking through how to make room for difference and diversity in these places, it's sort of the assimilation forward refugee program that often exists in these places. And then also in the middle here, a student Claudia lift, I'm really focused on the use of children's books as a ways as a way to think through intergenerational intergenerational learning degree New Deal public space, and the post sort of personal system in the Midwest. And then to end this here, you know, from Emily to Kobe, you know, who thought a lot about the way that we sort of consume this kind of culture or media today, and ultimately decided to produce a podcast series, doing her best carry gross impersonation which I'll play for you here to kind of take us as I say every week, we're powered by the wind and powered by the people. I'm your host, Carrie Moss, and welcome to breath of air. This is Iowa people's radio for the people by the people and of the people. And this week's episode, we're continuing our series voicing the Green New Deal, honoring 50 years of Mara, the Midwest Agricultural Regional Agency. So I'll stop it there. I'm thinking about this go on for a long time, but I'll just say you know one of the great benefits of being able to run the studio for a couple of years now is being able to work with phenomenal students who produce the kinds of things you've just seen here and who really threw themselves into this idea of experimenting with all manner of storytelling vehicles. And I'm really excited to hear from the rest of my colleagues, I will stop there. Thank you. Thank you so much Billy. And we've put into the chat, the dgn d US website so please do check that out and immerse yourself in all the rich media, the Billy students past and present have have created. Next up we have Jeanette Kim coming to us from California, who's Jeanette's an architectural designer who's whose research and teaching and designs at the California College of Art focuses on how design and ecology relate to public representation interest and debate. Her students work in this studio while not explicitly taking the gnd as a point of departure interrogate what I seem to think of as one of the most basic aspects of our laws in our economy right which is property. And specifically interrogating interrogating property as a means to advance equity and to strengthen racial and social justice so Jeanette can you share with us a little bit of your students work please. Hi everyone. So I'm just going to get this set up. Thank you so much for hosting this I think this event is so extraordinary I think there's such an incredible sense of possibility and really precise actions and really precise methods that we're all you're all laying laying out here. So thank you Kate and thank you custom for hosting us. So what I'm going to present today is called property and crisis and this is an architecture studio at California College of the arts. And as you can see here our purpose was to ask how property can be reimagined in the face of crisis to strengthen racial and social justice. So you might be asking why property relates to the Green New Deal. I think the unique triangulation between decarbonization justice and jobs that's envisioned by the Green New Deal is especially important because these terms together point to more deeply rooted set of questions than any of these terms might ask alone. So for example in the name of decarbonization we might say, you know, sure we want to install a bunch of solar panels. But once you cross that with justice suddenly you have to ask who pays for energy, who actually profits from it and I think those issues get a lot richer. So I think what I'm really saying here is that the triangulation between these concepts are essentially about power and wealth creation. That's actually where property comes in for us. So you know you could think of things from the Jeffersonian grid to the single family home to NIMBY politics. And in so many ways property has for so long excluded black indigenous and people of color from generating wealth and from gaining sustained access to resources. And amazingly a kind of flip side to property. So many of its underlying logics to concepts like the commons liability maintenance and belonging can also really be altered towards much more inclusive ends. So I think this kind of empowerment is especially relevant when we think about the kinds of crises that the Green New Deal addresses. So whether we're talking about sea level rise or wild wildfire smoke or the housing crisis or even a kind of crisis of trust, a community's ability to withstand a crisis really does require this cultivation of wealth and property that you know I think property is so key to. So to take on these questions. My studio partnered with the East Bay permanent real estate cooperative. Community based organization based in Oakland and Berkeley that in part uses crowdfunding to kind of build capital. And in part operates as a kind of community land trust which creates housing and cultural sites that are removed from the speculative market. So their motto is land without landlords. So that kind of the aspect of the process of taking property off the speculative market. With them we focused on West Oakland's seventh Street quarter, where he be practice, we're currently working on creating a cultural hub at Esther's orbit room which you could see here. And this was a kind of a hub of the West Coast blues and jazz scene about a century ago, sorry, a half a century ago. So in terms of our working process, you know we met really regularly with eb prep throughout the whole semester for lectures and workshops and critiques and even this kind of like really amazing site tour that we did with like cameras and zoom and all this kind of stuff. But I think most importantly, you know the question of how to partner between a studio and a community organization it's not necessarily easy right. And I think there are a couple of questions that for us were really critical. We did not want to set up a kind of linear process where we took research from them and like made designs that were seen as some kind of final output right that were kind of fixed conclusions. Another question that we wanted to focus on was, you know, this kind of question of how to translate between the incredible kinds of expertise that eb prep has so you know they combine expertise in law and financing and community organization. So we wanted to recognize all of those skills and learn figure out how to translate that into the kind of spatial analysis of form making and image making that we do as architects. So for sure I think this is where narrative comes in. And in part, we, we structured both our research and our design work through this concept of a property playbook, which consists of the kind of cards that you can see in front of you right now. So as you might know, a playbook is kind of a collection of plays or tactics that a sports team could use and kind of alter as they go, even as players or coaches might change you know the plays kind of have consistency or durability So, in a related way we wanted to create techniques that activists and local art residents, especially eb prep can themselves take ownership in and activate in a way that they guide making and using this playbook was itself part of the process of the studio. So, what you see in this in this slide is a kind of series of initial playbook cards that the students made when they were researching case studies about kind of experimental property arrangements. And then we hosted this conference on property. And by the way, I would like to love to invite all of you to watch some of the panel discussions online. This conference involved a workshop where we brought in policymakers climate planners, housing experts, even a commune organizer, a climate planning specialist from the Umatilla confederated tribes, and a few others. And then we kind of seated this conversation with our property playbook cards and invited everybody, the guests and the students together to figure out how they would kind of recombine these attitudes and and sort of pull design in in the process. And so I will say that especially that you know this set of cards began with an analysis of legal tactics. And then through the process of the semester we transitioned those observations into a kind of mixture of playbook cards that involves both legal tactics and design ones. So, again, to kind of emphasize that question of translation I think that was like a hinge we were really trying to focus on. And with all of this in mind I thought I would give you a glimpse of the students work, hopefully both of research and design, and I've grouped these pages into three topics so equity right shown here and then we'll talk a little bit about temporality and resources in the following slides. So first let's just talk a little bit about equity, the projects that you're seeing here basically reconfigure legal and financial mechanisms to redistribute the profits and the benefits of ownership to those who are traditionally excluded from the speculative real estate market. So the first project in the middle is by San Diego to Bagua who will join us in a few in a few minutes. And she shows how multiple property owners, all of these different properties right here can together create a kind of cluster of accessory dwelling units that in part provides secondary income for those owners, but also together because they're clustered together, generate a kind of community oasis. So a couple of other examples of equity questions. Because here I'm using both definitions of the word. We could see how Alexander Bruce over here kind of flips developers tactics to use crowdfunding to introduce phasing into a building over time. And then over here in a project called trading air by Savannah Lindsay. Savannah recognizes some of these policies that have to do with air rights and cultural landmark designations. And she uses that to be able to use the air rights above his area of historic importance to create a kind of exchange between new development and existing property. Okay, moving on to the second topic of temporality. These projects here embrace change. And, as you can see in this center image on this project is by Abigail Rockwell and it began with the study of the public trust doctrine, which is a kind of legal principle which basically seeds over ownership of bodies of government that have flooded up to their mean high tide line over to the government. So Abby uses this kind of legal tactic as a kind of weapon to reclaim land, and then make it available to for in her case and ecology lab, a community and indigenous marsh cultivation. And here I'll also just point out that we, in addition to the playbook as a kind of narrative tile style. We also definitely all played with the image making techniques of graphic narrative, as a way to imagine you know the inhabitation of these structures and things like that. So, sorry, I just check in my chat to see what's going on here. So, moving on to the third topic of resources. These projects all look at kind of collective access and ownership of resources like sun, water and crops. And that might have to do for example with the chain of solar community owned solar farms or the ability to kind of reclaim marshlands that could then transfer parts of the city grid over to indigenous land use practices. So I think I will end there. But hopefully, I think you could see some of these tactics of kind of open ended design. Production of tools that others can use other than designers. You can see some of these tactics of translation between legal strategies and design strategies, and also the kind of evocation of this kind of lived and spatial experience through the graphic narratives as well. Thank you. Thank you so much, Jeanette really inspiring work and of course you know this kind of format where we're trying to cramp so much in is does not do a good service to the depth and the nuances of the student work. So just to remind you in the chat we have put a link to a PDF where you can explore it in greater depth. That's just for you guys were attended here that is not a public public facing documents, but do do check it out. The presentation of student work will come from Keller Easterling, an architect writer and professor at Yale, whose most recent book, medium design inverts the emphasis on objects and figure to prompt innovative thought about both spatial and non spatial problems. And the thinking behind the framing of her studio looking at the Green New Deal in the context of the original New Deal is certainly both innovative and deeply aware of the history of bold government action, we're at the economy and indeed the climate. Would you please share yourself your students work. It's so great to be with you I've learned so much from all of you all here and I will show you just three projects very very briefly. You're from the you're looking here from that from the tribal lands of Oklahoma to urban Minneapolis where George Floyd was murdered you could imagine a stack of data layers mapping industrialized crop monocultures next to food deserts energy intensive production on feed lots and packing plants that are also covert hotspots, aquifer depletion and drought threatening another dust bowl earthquakes and fracking accidents from fossil fuel extraction and trade wars and government programs that perpetuate all this precarity. So you know we we work on the Green New Deal from the political vanguard but since these red states rail against big government government even as they receive massive subsidies that have been outspending government programs most government programs since the depression. We wonder if there was a possibility of political trick on another front, sort of disarming right wing opposition to the Green New Deal could you say that the old New Deal was still in place, and kind of calling a bluff. You see just how much of the GND could be accomplished by diverting funds from the own D, making the often racist state capitalism of the own D into an engine of its own reversal, maybe also neutralizing binaries and neutralizing the weaponized cries of forgotten men and lost causes. Maybe the move would come with political Teflon as well as a chance to more quickly meet some immediate needs rather than solution is thinking we found value and problems that could be productively combined with other problems. We're designing some open ended interplay some mutually beneficial exchanges across entrenched political divides that we hoped would work to trans transition from abusive to productive industries retool some mechanisms of social welfare energy policing reparations. And dialogue with a lot of interlocutors regenerative farmers ag extension community and agrarian land trust energy specialist farm mediators tribal leaders and others. So I'll tell you the story of these three projects. It has a bloated police police budget and just outside of town. Family farms routinely receive subsidies of a million dollars a year so some are ha loom jashin yang and Scott Simpson design interplays to siphon money from both police and farming monocultures to fund an unusual community land trust with both urban and rural holdings using techniques for both defunding police and decommodifying properties. This East Phillips land trust takes a ledger of discontinuous property and tries to generate interdependent spatial values that guard against gentrification and dispossession. Pairing needs at both ends of the urban and rural spectrum potentially sets off a kind of chain reaction. So one interplay reallocates a fragment of the police budget to create a community training center for exchanging knowledge and skills related to farming food systems and and energy. And because of farming is a great industry. Another interplay pairs retiring and emergent farmers. The CLT acquire smaller subdivided areas of large farms for small scale edible crops. And maybe that leads to restaurants and markets in the city and still more opportunity for training employment and urbanity. Maybe even this aggregate couple relationship eventually provides senior housing developed in the urban community. So the product is trying to rewire relationships in what you know CK Gibson Graham calls community economies it's the mutualism that redoubles resources and generates compounding values outside of dominant markets very sympathetic to the kinds of work that Janet and Bill you're doing. So we know sort of nothing works here. There's just a chance to maybe persistently pursue a chain reaction with towards goals of all kinds of scales. This project, Rachel Mulder Lee and the gutter and such as we will travel to Oklahoma place of fields faith and and football but also failure and violence. It's the end of the trail of tears a side of the dust bowl and it's also race massacre and the violence of the past meets continued harm from systemic discrimination and racism in the agricultural sector. So first it seems that they just went to the most difficult place in the world to try to re aggregate land for regenerative agriculture and food production and renewable energy for and reparations for for black and indigenous people. But but really the spectacular failures of the government program present opportunities for change and in part because the exhausted land loses its previous viability and becomes ripe for conversion to another purpose. This first interplay diverts us da subsidies from monocrops to support edible food farming attached to local markets, where the USDA's own snap program could be a kind of guaranteed end user. And, and while expensive industrial farming arguably kind of kills plants, more resourceful regenerative agriculture redoubles that output. Considering retiring farmers and and the spent land. The second interplay gathers properties into trusts, like trust facilitating wind energy that are more sustaining for farmers. And the interplay also looks at the effect of changing the terms of state trust land and enforcing the power of tribal jurisdictions to redress the theft of land wealth and sovereignty from black brown and indigenous people. And a precision GIS mapping link to subsidies and bankruptcies and other factors for millions of plots. And it starts to hallucinate a vast new commons. Energy from wind farms and solar panels, man may do nothing to stop the massive capital machine of fossil fuels. And the situation is so dot the dire that everything's on the table and including sabotage. And again, going to a pretty complicated place for Becca commissaris Steven Skolko and Gabriel Gutierrez Huerta considered them for bear totaled reservation in North Dakota where the MHA nation after enduring endless injustice over land tenure has chosen to rely on oil revenues from the range. And, but with sort of sensitive issues of sovereignty cutting in both directions. They sort of asked if the MHA nation chose to pursue renewables. What would it take to convert to utility scale wind energy which is so abundant in the region that if tribally owned it could match if not exceed oil revenues. So, as you know fracking this shale oil anti resource that's two miles below ground creates pervasive environmental damage soil degradation water contamination air pollution. Noise pollution you know the gas flaring sounds like a jet engine and and a buck shot of other abuses. And fracking maps on to the system of private property imposed with the Dawes Act of the 1887 that continues to splinter land holdings and create convoluted lease negotiations. It's kind of like mapping this massive physical plan is a silver persuasion think of the union jobs it would take to dismantle that but there's also a maybe a stealthy form of of sabotage involving land consolidation that could entrap oil capital in its own greed. Long enough to fund a transition to wind environmental protection and economic independence. How could you even begin to unwind whiteness without considering lands of thick section several miles to either side of the violence of that first cadastral mark and how could you negotiate change without some of this graphic spatial understanding and as well as the vivid storytelling that you all are. You're all trying to exercise so quoting Isabel Stengers how do you convert capital's chains of dependence back to relationships of interdependence and these are some of links to potential afterlife of the work with our interlocutors. Thank you. Thank you so much. Really provocative and again, I encourage everyone to continue to look at the work, because this is a very, very compressed version of the thank you guys all for for presenting just the tip of the iceberg. With that as a little bit of context on the on the leading edge of how design educators and students are are thinking about moving the needle on achieving the aims of the Green New Deal I'd love to invite into the conversation some people who are thinking about this outside of design schools as artists as advocates as activists. One way to make big change seem possible is to look back on it from an imagined future. And the best way that I've seen this visualized is the video a message from the future. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. So first I would love for us all to take a stretch in our chair and watch this incredible video and then right after we watch it. I have a couple questions for Molly about how it came to be and how it fits into some of the broader themes that we're discussing here tonight. So if we could heal up a message from the future please. Ah, the bullet train from New York to DC. It always brings me back to when I first started making this commute. In 2019, I was a freshman in the most diverse Congress in history. Up to that point, it was a critical time. I'll never forget the children in our community. They were so inspired to see this new class of politicians who reflected them navigating the halls of power. It's often said you can't be what you can't see. And for the first time they saw themselves. I think there was something similar with the Green New Deal. We knew that we needed to save the planet and that we had all the technology to do it, but people were scared. They said it was too big, too fast, not practical. I think that's because they just couldn't picture it yet. Anyways, I'm getting ahead of myself. Let's start with how we got here. 1977, New York. A senior scientist named James Black made a presentation about how burning fossil fuels could eventually lead to global temperatures rising four or five degrees Fahrenheit. Within two years, one of the world's biggest super tankers was outfitted with a state-of-the-art lab to measure CO2 in the ocean, gathering more data about global warming. Guess who was doing all of this research? ExxonMobil, the oil and gas company. Oh yeah, Exxon knew this whole time. As did our politicians. Ten years later, James Hansen, NASA's top climate scientist, told Congress he was 99% certain that global warming was happening and caused by humans. That was 1988, the year before I was even born. So did Exxon listen to the science, including their own? Did they change business models, invest in renewables? No, the opposite. They knew and they doubled down. They and others spent millions setting up a network of lobby groups and think tanks to create doubt and denial about climate change. It was an effort designed to attack and dispute the very kind of science they themselves had been doing. And it worked. Politicians went to bat for fossil fuels and these massive corporations kept digging and mining, drilling and fracking like there was no tomorrow. America became the biggest producer and consumer of oil in the world. Fossil fuel companies made hundreds of billions while the public paid the lion's share to clean up their disasters. We lost a generation of time. We'll never get back. Entire species will never get back. Natural wonders gone forever. And in 2017, Hurricane Maria destroyed the place where my family was from, Puerto Rico. It was like a climate bomb. It took as many American lives as 9-11. And in the next year, when I was elected to Congress, the world's leading climate scientist declared another emergency. They told us that we had 12 years left to cut our emissions in half, or hundreds of millions of people would be more likely to face food and water shortages, poverty and death. 12 years to change everything, how we got around, how we fed ourselves, how we made our stuff, how we lived and worked, everything. The only way to do it was to transform our economy, which we already knew was broken since the vast majority of wealth was going to just a small handful of people and most folks were falling further and further behind. It was a true turning point. Lots of people gave up. They said we were doomed. But some of us remembered that as a nation, we'd been in peril before. The Great Depression, World War II, we knew from our history how to pull together to overcome impossible odds. And at the very least, we owed it to our children to try. The wave began when Democrats took back the House in 2018 and then the Senate and the White House in 2020 and launched the decade of the Green New Deal, a flurry of legislation that kicked off our social and ecological transformation to save the planet. It was the kind of swing for the fence ambition we needed. Finally, we were entertaining solutions on the scale of the crises we faced without leaving anyone behind. That included Medicare for All, the most popular social program in American history. We also introduced the federal jobs guarantee, a public option including dignified living wages for work. Funnily enough, the biggest problem in those early years was a labor shortage. We were building a national smart grid, retrofitting every building in America, putting trains like this one all across the country. We needed more workers. That group of kids from my neighborhood were right in the middle of it all, especially this one girl, Iliana. Her first job out of college was with AmeriCorps Climate, restoring wetlands and bayous in coastal Louisiana. Most of her friends were in her union, including some oil workers in transition. They took apart old pipelines and got to work planting mangroves with the same salary and benefits. Of course, when it came to healing the land, we had huge gaps in our knowledge. Luckily, indigenous communities offered generational expertise to help guide the way. Iliana got restless, tried her hand as a solar plant engineer for a while, but eventually made her career in raising the next generation as part of the Universal Child Care Initiative. As it turns out, caring for others is valuable, low-carbon work, and we started paying real money to folks like teachers, domestic workers, and home health aides. Those were years of massive change, and not all of it was good. When Hurricane Sheldon hit southern Florida, parts of Miami went underwater for the last time. But as we battled the floods, fires, and droughts, we knew how lucky we were to have started acting when we did. And we didn't just change the infrastructure, we changed how we did things. We became a society that was not only modern and wealthy, but dignified and humane too. By committing to universal rights like health care and meaningful work for all, we stopped being so scared of the future. We stopped being scared of each other, and we found our shared purpose. Iliana heard the call too, and in 2028 she ran for office in the first cycle of publicly funded election campaigns. And now she occupies the seat that I once held. I couldn't be more proud of her, a true child of the Green New Deal. When I think back to my first term in Congress, writing that old-school Amtrak in 2019, all of this was still ahead of us. And the first big step was just closing our eyes and imagining it. We can be whatever we have the courage to see. I've seen that countless times that every time I see it, I notice something new. And I'm so delighted that Molly Crabb-Apple, the artist behind that, is with us today. She is joining us fresh from a vaccine shot, which I really, really appreciate. We could sometimes feel a little weird afterwards. Thank you, Molly, for being with us. If you want to turn on your video, I can ask you a couple of questions. I think my video is turned on, I hope. Yes, hi. Hey, my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much for being here. Tell us how this project came about. I'm specifically interested, the choice to normalize the Green New Deal by setting this in the future, looking back on this moment of transformative change as history. How did that come about, and how did that affect your process of going about it? Well, you know, this is a video that has a lot of different creators in it, but the one that I have to thank the most is Naomi Klein, who I met perhaps six months before we did this video at a protest for Puerto Rico and for reconstructing Puerto Rico after Maria. And me and Naomi, we got to talking about how we could do art and advance the Green New Deal the same way that the New Deal itself was advanced by art. And we had the idea that there are so many dystopian visions of the future, so many visions of the future that make you feel like paralyzed and make you feel, you know, terror and make you feel like there's nothing that you can do. We're all going to live in some children of man type hell zone. And we were like, no, this is bullshit. We want to create a vision of the future that's beautiful and that shows us that we deserve better. Naomi, a new AOC, and she got talking to her and also Naomi's husband, Avi Lewis, was involved and my two collaborators, Kim Bookbinder and Jim Batt. And we all sort of got brainstorming and bouncing around ideas for how we could show what an actual world with the Green New Deal looked like. Because, you know, this is the thing that's powerful about art, right? You can give people facts, you can give them figures, you can do all sorts of studies, but very often, despite all of that knowledge that you're pouring in on them, they don't feel it, right? They don't see it. They don't know what it's going to be like and it might seem strange and scary to them. And what art can do is you can quite literally paint a picture. You can show people, no, this is what the Green New Deal will be like. And you can show them that it's something that on one hand is optimistic and positive and beautiful, but also is not something that's so foreign from their current reality that it looks like some sort of pie-in-the-sky fairy tale. Awesome. Amazing. I've noticed also in a lot of your work, in addition to the landscapes that, you know, but build the world of your stories, you know, individual characters play a large role and that's what I was noticing again, watching it, watching it just now. Can you speak a little bit about the representation of people in your artwork? I mean, it's something we talk a lot about in architectural representation in school, but I think more importantly, you know, how do you think about the importance of it every day in the physical details that you choose to include or the faces of humans in the worlds that you depict? Well, I've been drawing since I was four years old and portraits were always my first love. I would use portraits to hang out with the popular kids that would usually, you know, beat me up when I was seven. I mean, for me, portraits were always the way to connect with people, to make friends, you know, sort of parse with a world that I might have found to be somewhat confusing otherwise. And so it's not really a surprise that I would put portraits and put depictions of humans at the center of pretty much all of my work, actually. But in terms of the every day, one of the things that I have disliked about a lot of visions of the future is a lot of visions of the future come from the school where you have to go all blank slate, all tabula rasa with stuff, right? Where you have to burn down everything and create some new glass glitzy Dubai with solar panels bullshit, right? And to me, that's super alienating because there's a lot about the present that I like. And also it's really wasteful and polluting and terrible to destroy everything and build a new, you know, Dubai with solar panels world. So how did this reflect itself in my Green New Deal video? Well, I am was really inspired by New York. You know, I'm from New York. I was born there. I've lived there my whole life. And I wanted to show like what the grand concourse in the Bronx would look like, you know, under the deck of the Green New Deal. I've also, I spent a lot of time in Puerto Rico after, after Maria, my father's from Puerto Rico. And I was incredibly inspired by the work that mutual aid groups and the community organizers and that agricultural ecological groups were doing there. And when I've looked at how I would portray the future, I've also derived a lot from a lot of inspiration from Puerto Rico as well. And I just wanted to create, I wanted to create a future that used all of the fucking beautiful and amazing things about the past. It didn't think that we had to, that we had to wipe that clean, but it used things and then use the tech, use technology to make the world better and more humane and more livable while keeping what we love about the present. I love that. And speaking of the present, I wonder if you could talk to us a little bit about the role of a varying witness in your work, which is maybe, you know, not exclusively a factor in this particular video, but in so much of your work, you know, someone who's drawn and reported from Israeli checkpoints, Guantanamo Bay, Puerto Rico after the hurricane, as you just mentioned. Can you speak about the role of direct observation in some of your past and perhaps future projects occupied the standards campaign, serious civil war? I mean, okay, so we've all just gone through, all of us in New York have just gone through hell history, right? We had saw 40,000 New Yorkers died, right, in the first months of COVID. And one of the things that I think all of us know in our skin and our blood and our bone is that what we saw was so much more complicated than what people thought it was like. It was more horrible. It was more beautiful. It was more funny. It was more fucked. It was more corrupt. It was more everything. And there's no way that anyone could have known what we had gone through unless they had lived that. And that's the same thing about doing journalism, about writing. How could you possibly know what history looks like when it's happening unless you actually go there, unless you actually sweat and suffer a little bit and get dust on your face and talk to real human beings. How else would you know? Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you for your work. I think it's a real test case for how we can not only imagine the future, but also choose to identify those details from the present that are worth bearing witness to, both as testimony, but also as part of preserving the things that we love about our environments and trying to sort of enhance them in particular ways. Last question, we'll tell us what you're working on now. Oh, man. What am I working on now? Well, besides doing a lot of, you know, just community aid type volunteering stuff, I am working on my next book, which was about a Jewish socialist and anti-Zionist revolutionary movement that my great grandfather was a part of and why this movement has since been sort of erased from history. It's about the Jewish labor boomed and I had to learn Yiddish for this, which is really hard because Yiddish is a lot like German and German was not a language that I had any background in. Yeah, I've been spending, I spent most of the last year researching that and what else am I doing? I don't know. Hanging door hangers on doors to tell Brian Kavanaugh, my state senator to cancel the dam rent debt. Awesome. Well, thank you. Thank you for your activism in addition to your storytelling as a reporter and as an illustrator as an artist. Our next guest also has a lot to offer on the topic of how journalistic practices as one part of a broader suite of narrative tools can move the needle on social policy and on equity. Rinku San is the executive director of the narrative initiative and I'm delighted to hear more about the narrative initiative's work catalyzing durable narrative change in order to make equity common sense. Prior to this position, Rinku was the executive director of Race Forward where she was the publisher of the award-winning new site Color Lines and has worked on narrative and political strategy with numerous organizations and foundations. She's the author of two books herself, Stir It Up and The Accidental American, both of which theorize a model of community organizing that integrates a political analysis of race, gender, class, sexual orientation and other systems. So Rinku, I invite you to tell us a little bit more about the organization that you're now leading but also a little bit about the emerging field of practice that you're fostering with narrative work. What is the work and how do you do it? Thank you so much, Kasim, and thanks for including me in this really inspiring session. It's just amazing to see all of the design work and this last video was just really got me thinking. What I'm going to try to do is lay out some of the things you think about when you're crafting narrative strategy and then get a little bit specific around the Green New Deal and what is moving in the discourse around that right now. At Narrative Initiative, what we do is pull together creative people of different kinds to figure out cool projects like the one that Molly just showed us, cool projects they can do together to shift the stories we tell and the big ideas and values that we can contest over and actually fight over. So I'm going to start with some definitions. Narratives are built out of stories. They're built out of stories that are stacked on top of each other and that if we're lucky and we've done our strategy well that add up over many years to eventually make certain ideas common sense and to push other ideas out of the public discourse as credible ideas. So stories are really the building block of any narrative strategy along with your political goals, your legislative goals, your organizing goals, and so on. And stories have to have four elements always. They have to have characters and people, your protagonist, your antagonist who's creating an obstacle to your protagonist reaching their goals. There have to be human beings in any story. A story that's all about systems and laws is going to have a hard time taking hold in people's brains. Stories have actions. One of the things I've noticed in teaching this stuff is that often when I ask an organizer or an activist, tell me a story about the issue you're working on. Let's say it's education. What they'll give me instead is a description. So they'll get to parts of the story elements, but not all of it. So they'll say, my kid goes to middle school and his school, there's no toilet paper in the bathroom stalls and they're using books from 1985 and other terrible things about the school. And then they'll stop. So I'll be like, well, what happened to your kid? What did your kid do? In order for that description to become a story, things have to happen in it. There has to be a plot. There have to be actions that people take or actions that are taken upon them and things that happen. So action is a second really key element of stories. So the third key element is setting. It's hard for us as readers, viewers, listeners to get fully involved in a story that when we don't know where it is taking place, what the setting is. Is it urban? Is it rural? Is it a cramped tiny apartment? Is it a beautiful place that is no longer beautiful because of the way industry has destroyed it? What is the setting? And then finally, stories have a moral, an idea that undergirds the story and that you're going to leave listening or watching or hearing the story with. You're going to leave with that moral. When you have enough stories of a similar type that people start to hear Green New Deal a lot or hear message from the future a lot or hear about women who are building childcare cooperatives or tenants who are taking over their buildings. When you hear those stories a lot and they have a similar theme, the idea gets reinforced even if the actual stories underneath the idea are changing. So saturation is really important to a narrative strategy because having a good story, but not being able to get it out into the world, not being able to find its audience, not being able to tell the story in appealing ways will prevent the kind of repetition that you need in order for stories to become part of narrative. There's also a notion of deep narrative, which is when you tell a similar kind of story often enough and when different kinds of stories stack on top of each other so that they become really ubiquitous, you can't turn around in a society, you can't open your email, you can't turn on the TV, you can't open the paper without seeing some version of that story. And when that goes on for usually several decades at least, that's when you start to get certain ideas becoming common sense. So common sense that you can evoke them, you don't even have to tell a whole story, you can just say a few words or one word. If I say bootstraps in the United States, then people think immediately pull yourself up and yourself, pull yourself. So they understand that bootstraps to be evoking individualism and self-reliance and things like that. Today in the US, if I say the words welfare queen, many, many people will recognize a racial trope. They may be critical of it or they may not, they may believe in that trope, but they're going to know that I'm talking about, they're going to know that by saying welfare queen, I'm talking about an individual woman of color, probably black, who has abused public benefit systems in order to live luxuriously. If I say love thy neighbor again in this country, people are going to know that I'm talking about a set of Christian beliefs that have us providing mutually to each other and taking care of each other. So I'm going to just give you a quick example from my own life. While I was at Race Forward, we ran the campaign, the Drop the Eye Word campaign, that got the Associated Press to take the phrase illegal immigrant out of their style guide. And we felt like that was extremely important to do because that phrase attached to images of brown-skinned Latino men, which were then also attached to often false stories about what these men were doing in the United States. All of that together was creating a narrative around immigration and around undocumented people in particular that really was making it impossible to get, to have a decent debate on immigration policy that wasn't marred by racism and other bad things. Racism and nationalism, I will say. So what we did was generate, first of all, we chose an arena to fight in, and that was journalism. We targeted the Associated Press because their style guide sets practice for thousands of outlets around the world. And we wanted to contest the idea that the only important thing to know about immigration was the law and order aspect of it. It didn't matter human rights, climate disaster, what people were fleeing, capitalism, family unity, none of that stuff mattered in our immigration discourse because the only thing that was succeeding in the narrative landscape was law and order. So we needed to really interrupt that, and that's why we ran the Drop the I Word campaign. And what we tried to do through it was shift the big idea behind immigration policy discourse from being law and order to being about human dignity. And in this case where we were clearly targeting journalism as a profession, the other value we really pushed out through that campaign and through the storytelling we did was any human being's right to have fair and accurate representation of themselves in the media, by reporters, by editors, by photojournalists, by caption writers. So we were facing a dominant frame that was law and order and we wanted to replace it with a human dignity, fairness and accuracy frame. So we got people we knew to produce all these stories, often just through a blog post with a picture about the actual experiences of undocumented people and the people who loved them, worked with them, were in community with them, were friends with them, just story after story that along with that storytelling, along with petitions, research that produced key pieces of data and actions like a petition delivery to the New York Times or a meeting with the editors of the Associated Press Style Guide. Actions plus the telling of stories created a narrative that helped us win this change at the Associated Press. And that seven years later made possible the change that Joe Biden announced a couple of weeks ago, which is going to require federal documents to take the word alien also out of discussions of immigration and immigrants. So that's my fairly quick rundown of narrative basics. I just want to say a couple of things about the Green New Deal that may be alarming. One is that the discourse is driven by the right wing. Green New Deal discussions are driven by the right wing. They are clearly attached to politics, so you'll see peaks in discussion about Green New Deal after key political events like one that we analyzed was the naming of Kamala Harris as the vice presidential candidate. After she was named, there was a whole flurry of activity in the press and in pundit land, in punditry, taken up by the right, talking about the radical Green New Deal agenda and how a vice president, Kamala Harris, was going to put out all these things that weren't good for us. Here's a second thing we've noticed in looking at the discussion around Green New Deal. Most of it is negative, and even though the negative talk is driven by the right, it's frequently repeated by liberals and progressives. So both, all three of those audience, all three of those messengers will say it's too expensive, it's low priority, and it won't help. So we have a narrative problem on the Green New Deal, which things like a message from the future really help, but we need a lot more of it. We need more storytelling related to Green New Deal policies that lead with people who have agency, that lead with solutions, and that characterize antagonists and opponents of the Green New Deal as some form of villain, I would argue. I'm going to stop there and see where... Thank you. Thank you so much. No, that's so interesting. I love the way you break it down into the elements of story. And as someone who teaches narrative practice and thinks about stories all the time, the role of the protagonist is something I talk about all the time, but the role of the antagonist is something that I don't talk about as often, and I think is a very important part of how to raise mistakes of the policies we're talking about and the justice that we want to see through naming names, both the names of the people who stand to benefit, but also those who are standing in the way. So our final guest for the night, before I invite everyone to come back in for a broader conversation, is Heather McGee, who designs and promotes solutions to inequality in America. She's testified in Congress, drafted legislation, led organizations, but is currently deeply invested in the notion that policy change requires narrative change. Exactly what Rinku and Molly and Teller and Billy and Jeanette have been talking about. Not only narrative change about the climate, but also with respect to exposing and undoing the racism that has driven so much of American public policy and American attitudes to the role and function of government and the workings of the economy. Her new book, The Some of Us, What Racism Costs Everyone and How We Can Prosper Together, debuted at the New York Times bestseller just a couple of weeks ago. So we're very lucky to have gotten her to take a step off of her whirlwind book tour and join us here today. I have a little bit to do with that because she also happens to be my wife. But we're so grateful that she could be here with us. Heather, I've heard you speak so powerfully on TV news and in a wide variety of public appearances about the impacts of racism on all Americans in terms of economic opportunity, health and education outcomes and more. But I'd love to hear, having read your book, how you connect this to the stories in The Some of Us about climate change, environmental racism, and infrastructure in particular. So if you could tell us a little bit about that in the context of your book and how it fits into the arc of your career, I think that would be a great way to bring this to a close before we open it up for some more conversation. Great. Thank you so much, Kossum. I love you. I'm so happy to be part of this conversation. It's been so engaging and wonderful to listen to it. And I'm coming at this as an economic policy person, as a racial justice advocate, who really kind of fell into being an advocate on issues of environmental justice and action for climate change. And in fact, when I set out to write The Some of Us, I did not expect to have a chapter on climate change. But in the end, as it turns out, it's about unavoidable for me to do so. So I want to talk just a little bit about kind of how I learned about climate change in the course of writing The Some of Us. And much of it is in a chapter in the middle of the book called The Same Sky. So the basic idea that animates The Some of Us is the idea that the biggest impediment to progress in the United States is a dominant worldview, a deep narrative, a deep story, a deep narrative made up of stories, thank you, Rinku, held by the majority of white Americans, less so by Americans of color, that says that the country is in a zero-sum competition. That progress for people of color comes at the expense of white people. A dollar in my pocket means a dollar less than yours. If I get a job, you lose yours. It's this idea of an us and of them within the community of America itself that is divided along racial lines. And I'm very clear in the book to point out how, from before our nation's founding, but from the beginning of our economic model in this land, the zero-sum has been a racial story, a creation of the worst elements of American society that have profited from the sale of this story. Because what it does most is it creates a realignment of the majority of white Americans away from their common interests with black, brown, and indigenous people and has them choosing their perceived racial interest over their class interest. So that's basically the idea. Now, the question is, I set out to write about various issues, housing, the economy, the financial crisis, healthcare, workers' rights, et cetera, over the course of the journey that I took to write The Sun of Us. And I kept running into other places where the zero-sum was actually blocking progress. And it turned out that climate change action was one of them. So some of this may be really obvious to those of you who are deeply immersed in issues of climate, but a lot of it was new to me. And I think some of that might be new to you. But I think it's a good question. I think it's a good question. And I think it's a good question. Well, despite the kind of, you know, broad kind of stereotype that we have about who is an environmentalist in America, that it might look a little bit like the guy who keeps walking by me in the co-working space. You know, it's sort of like a white guy who, you know, is an REI member, perhaps, who is a member of the White Americans of Sierra Club and Greenpeace. But in fact, white Americans, if it were left to them alone, we wouldn't do anything on climate change. According to the Yale Project on Climate Change Communication, white Americans are far more likely to be in the skeptical, doubtful, resistant camps on the issues of climate change. And black and brown Americans are much more likely to be in the concerned and alarmed and be really supportive and taking pretty aggressive and necessary action to address climate change. So that was one of the first issues where I realized, oh, okay. So race does really have something to do with our action or inaction on addressing climate change. And then, of course, you just think about it politically, right? Our conservative faction in the United States is the most opposed to climate change action. We go so far as to the conservative faction in the US go so far as to deny that it's even a problem. Where does that come from? And is it just an accident that that conservative political faction is also largely white and disproportionately male? Turns out, research shows, no, it's not an accident. I had a series of conversations with sociologists and climate psychologists who think about kind of the mental models, the deep story that undergirds climate denialism or resistance to taking climate action. And ultimately, they are also those key deep stories that I identified as part of kind of the racial zero sum story that are holding back progress and so many other issues. So it really is, as is the insight at the heart of the Green New Deal, all connected, not just in the solutions that we need, but also in the deep stories that are holding back progress. So this idea, so what are the deep stories that are held disproportionately by white people in America that are making them more reluctant to act on climate change? Well, one of them is racial resentment, which is just basically the idea that black people in particular sort of don't try hard enough and get too many special favors. And if you look at racial resentment on in the studies as a number of professors have, including a man named Professor Benegal, white Republicans are obviously less likely to support action on climate change. But white Republicans with higher levels of racial resentment are almost 30 percentage points more likely to be opposed to climate change than white Republicans with lower levels of racial resentment. So it's not just partisanship. It really is this racial resentment. And why is that? I believe it's because what happens is the issue of racial resentment has, as its core antagonist, the government, right? It's black people who are lazy and not doing what they need to do to succeed, but they are being coddled by and are dependent on a government that is putting the thumb on the scales for black people. And so after generations of being taught to distrust the government and distrust collective action, what does that mean when we progressives say, we're going to need a huge massive role for government and reordering the economy? And then the second big deep story that's at play in climate change resistance that I think all of us storytellers around the Green New Deal and other solutions have to contend with is the zero sum racial hierarchy. And that's the idea basically that because there is this racial hierarchy and because white men have been at the top of this racial hierarchy and because the floor is so low, right? The floor of human suffering in the racial hierarchy in the United States is so low, right? We simply do not care for people who are struggling and we allow them to suffer. We allow them to go without housing, without healthcare. We allow them to, you know, I mean, the list goes on. It's sort of like if you've already allowed people to suffer in your economy and in your kind of story of human deservingness and worth, then what does it matter if people suffer from the drowning and all the catastrophic climate risks that we're taking on and you actually think that you're not going to be subject to those risks. But as I say in the book, you know, that like the zero sum racial hierarchy in general is an illusion, right? We are all, although obviously black and brown indigenous communities are going to be hurt first and worst, are being hurt first and worst by environmental risks and climate change. We are living under the same sky. There are impacts to everyone and I think that we need to center a win-win idea of the benefits of the Green New Deal and recognize the way that race is already shaping storytelling around the Green New Deal today. Thank you so much. I think that's such an important and urgent perspective to bring into this conversation and sort of beautifully ties, I think, a thread between all of these very, very diverse presentations. I would love for everyone who spoke in here tonight to join us so we can talk a little bit amongst ourselves and hopefully have a little bit of time to answer some questions from the audience as they might come in. But let me start with you, Heather and Rinku. Yeah, I mean, I've heard you both talk in different contexts about the need to move over the horizon ideas into the mainstream, right, with Rinku, you know, talking about making certain things feel like common sense and Heather also in your previous work before this book at Demos of really taking things that seemed super radical and making them seem like part of the political mainstream. I wonder in the context of that, what do you guys think those new two who deal, you know, so beautifully in the stories of people and the impacts of public policy on people's lives. What do you think about the efficacy and potential of some of the visual and conceptual tools that we've been exposed to here tonight? I'm happy to start us off. Hi, Heather, so good to see you. So I think that I saw a lot tonight that I could imagine the Green New Deal network using, that's the network that I work with, comprised of groups all around the country organizing, that are organizing toward those policies. I think the big question for as, if I were going to take some of the tools that you all have showed me tonight and build them into a narrative structure, strategy on the Green New Deal, a couple of things I'd be thinking about, one is how to feature the people and the values first. In a report that's on our website called Towards a New Gravity, there's a quote near the end by a woman named Erin Potts who organizes musicians largely on social justice themes. And Erin says in it, if you want to win policies, you have to stop talking about policies. And what she means is that you have to talk about people and values instead. And that's also true for data. So I would caution us to not over rely on data and not over rely on the piece of policy that we're moving, but to pick and choose through all of the stuff we've seen tonight and as we're creating things, what we're trying to do is put people in the center and puts a value, lifts up a value. If that value is commonly held and shared, that's awesome. But sometimes it's not yet. It's not yet commonly held and shared. And so the people are going to be your conduit, especially to values that are not yet widely shared or that your audience finds it easy to ignore. I loved the message from the future video because I did see in it people and values. The policies were kind of embedded and you could easily coming out of that video, my thought was I feel hopeful and I see people like me and there's actual action going on. There's a plot here. So I think you want to center people and values and you want to think hard about what emotion you are trying to generate at any given moment and for whom, for what audience and different emotions get you different things. Sorrow can be pretty depressing but it's real. Anger can be very enlivening but it may not lead to that kind of openness to other communities that we need to be building to win a Green New Deal. So I think it's a good idea and I hope is in pretty short supply so you might want to generate some of that. So people values emotion. Those are the guides for me. Thank you so much. I think also what is in that video but it's also been on our minds. So I think it's a good idea to look at the world building of the future we want to see. Heather, did you want to add anything to that in terms of how these tools translate into your world? Yeah. Message from the future is one of my favorite pieces of policy communication of all time. I'm obsessed with it. It's so wonderful in so many ways. So I think it's a good idea to look at this vision of cross racial solidarity. You have this young woman who is a young Alexandra. She says her best friends are these white union workers. That's really important because as Rinku said alarmingly the demonization of the Green New Deal has become very racialized and gendered. It's a very clear racial zero sum that is being activated by the right wing. This idea that somebody is getting power and somebody is being served. It's either the racialized and gendered other or it's you. So we have to think we can't avoid those racialized narratives. They're always going to be very loud on the other side and trying to define the stakes for frankly the people who are the swing on this issue, the opposition on this issue, which is white Americans and therefore we need to really show in our design and visioning how it doesn't have to be a zero sum and really have images of who are we saying are the benefits? Who are the winners and losers of the Green New Deal? I love that moment where in the video where it talks about the workers who were in transition, implying not only solidarity but also government investment in really meeting where they're at and giving the training they need to move on. So I think that's one of the things that we have to think about of that kind of thinking in the student work that we saw, particularly Keller when you were talking about the union jobs piece in your student's work. But Keller I'd also love to bring you in on this and the perspective and the context of the media and design, the interconnections between material things, whether it's transit or windmills or permanently affordable homes, things you want to see in the future. How do you see the role of storytelling in the fields of practice that you seek to promote and also in the way that you teach? Well, the medium design is meant to sort of unfocus eyes and look at how might work on interplays between things as opposed to solutions. Against solutionist thinking and looking at finding forms for architects to make that it can involve a lot of different authors and can engage authors in the kinds of mutualism that I was trying to show. I think part of it's trying to kind of expand on our activist tools a little bit too. My trying to expand on activist tools also involved a little bit of sneakiness. So I think it is, our approach here was to sort of try to call the bluff of just how much money is already being spent from the old New Deal and make clear that those red states are already receiving enormous money. But I think there's a sneaky story there to tell that could provide a bit of leverage. Yes, absolutely. Very important piece of the puzzle. It reminds me of an op-ed I read a few years ago called Red State Socialism about and spoke directly about the Tennessee Valley Authority and a lot of these regionally co-operatives. Bill, what do you think? Do you get the sense that students of design are eager to bring these perspectives and tools into their arsenal? Are we perhaps diluting the specificity of the traditional design skills by asking everyone to be a storyteller? Billy, maybe you can speak about this in the context of the regional scale and winning the support and buy-in of people in particular geographies that you articulated in your student work. Maybe, Jeanette, you could speak about this in the context of very local coalition building, co-identifying problems and co-creating solutions with community partners like the East Bay Permanent Real Estate Collective. Billy, do you want to go first? I'll say the short answer to the question is yes, but also I benefit immensely from having final year students in what are called option studios. So they get to choose from kind of a menu of options. And I think the idea that I teach is the only thing kind of resembling a left leaning or left at all sort of studio in the school, I get a great selection of the most radical and committed to climate and racial economic justice students that we have. And it makes my job in many ways much easier. I keep thinking about this question or this kind of thread that both Rinku and Heather have pulled out around the need for kind of value propositions as opposed to say like big data, which I think is hugely important and absolutely right. And we've benefited a lot in our studio from having folks like Mary Hegler and Colleen Brace-Noise-Cattern, and other folks from GNDN who've spent a ton of time with us each year helping us think through some of these questions about how to pull values forward in the way that we make images and the way that we talk about the images we make. And also the choices before us about who we align ourselves with with these studios. So often these studios I run here are bringing local frontline and fenced line activists and not chambers of commerce, which is kind of typically the norm in many of the studios. They're kind of blanket also. And I think about something Mary says kind of every year in the studio that really sticks with her students, which is that life is not a standardized test. They wish it was. They're drawn with all the right answers and win whatever demands you have. Ideas have to be like clot in one. And this is where I think this idea of storytelling as one more tool in the designer's toolbox is so important. It's not going to supplant or replace all the other things design education does well, although we do a lot of things not so well. But it is going to be one more thing I think we can add to our personal. I think in studios like the one Shannett and Keller and I have kind of put forward here, I think the question that kind of motivates all of them certainly motivates me is how to make ourselves more useful at places like CCA and Columbia and Penn that aren't often aligned with the climate justice movement are often aligned in opposition to it and treating the studio as a vehicle for putting we're often far more radical demands than anything that can ever come out of design studio onto an agenda and through I think both again some of the points we can make earlier can take what feels like a really radical alternate or future world and make it feel much more pragmatic by landing it in real places, grounding it in stories develop to real people in real communities. And my students credit especially this last fall would have a limited budget to play around within the studio in years where we were allowed to travel what would usually go towards travel. This year they decided to spend that money paying folks in each of these projects so some of the audio tracks that you can hear on the DGND site are written and narrated by folks we work with in the studio, they got paid for their time like anyone should who was actively selected in the studio and I think you know for us it's been a hugely rewarding experience for many of the students so many of them are doing things now you wouldn't typically do with an MLA or an MRC ones working on the Senate DPW Committee for Senator Herkley thinking about how infrastructure is a question of Green New Deal and racial and economic justice others are doing other things kind of you know far afield from what we might think of as capital A architecture and I think studios like this have to think have to be purposefully you know structured to help build those pathways outside of the conventional sort of post graduate or post professional school model because that's what our students are asking for and that's what the world needs. Absolutely I definitely sense that to among my students Jeanette did you have anything you wanted to add to that and we have a couple questions from the audience before we close. Yeah definitely I actually invited some of my students to come join us today so I would love it if you could turn your cameras on and I know there's not quite time for everyone to speak but thank you so much for being here and I was just wondering if I could kind of forward Kassim's question Mary and I thought maybe I could just point this to you especially if Kassim's asking like you know what are the students think let's ask the students so I think the question I want to ask you all is that as a studio we began by studying these very large legal systems and then we kind of ended with descriptions of very personal experiences so in reference to Rinku's point about showing the people showing the lives Mary and I was wondering if you could give us insight into what it took for you to link between that systemic level and that human level. Yeah I think we had a lot of discussions about remember Jason in particular at one point in one of our desk prints that we have with Jeanette talked about how do we represent BIPOC people of color and you know we often we have to think about different styles of drawing or you know as we're learning students different techniques of representing people there's we start to pick up on certain trends that travel through the school so a lot of the times we get criticized for making maybe drawing people of color but making it to animated or cartoonistic and just trying to figure out ways that definitely we can whether it's Photoshopping people into it you know trying to find photographs and yeah it's just it's it's also thinking about not just people of color but BIPOC of different age ranges of different parts of the world it it definitely takes a lot of time to think about that. Yeah and I know Marion like you especially identified really particular characters and imagine their lives and kind of walked through that and I think you personalized it in that way so thanks that's awesome. Yeah I think I think it's all it's very interesting to me because I mean also the points you were making Billy I think designers and design students are already incredibly sophisticated even when they walk in the door at least in my experience at telling stories about an imagined future but maybe have had less emphasis in prior education in using storytelling skills to represent existing conditions which is not just about you know drawing both details of what the world looks like today that I was asking Molly Crabapple about but also you know deep listening which I know that all you guys have incorporated into your studio practice which wasn't necessarily always the norm at least when we were studying design generation or two ago yeah I mean does anyone want to talk about that the role of some of the informants you know whether they're in the case of Billy Studio paying local partners for their time and co-creating scripts or I know Jeanette your students worked really closely with you know with this local partner in particular it's really trying to understand and co-create what the challenge was and how that you know that I think is a very important part of storytelling too the representational tools that we use of course is what's foregrounded but how do we actually devise the story and co-create it with those who stand to benefit from whatever intervention I think would be useful to hear about from anyone who wants to speak to that sorry my role is like I'm like sub moderators like I'm taking your questions and like pushing it well no I would just love to hear about the partnership with East Paper and Real Estate Collective and the role of listening and co-creating and co-identifying what the challenge actually is Jason can I pull you in here because I feel like that's one of the things that you did especially well it's like how did you listen take it in how do you translate that material into your own work we'll just take it very literal you know everything they say is very educated and very experienced you know what really stuck with me was the idea of the champion that Noni Session from EV Prep brought up it's this idea of you know someone in the community is already trying to fight for some sort of justice and what was said earlier in this session was not to come in and have this mindset of you bringing in like a fresh start to something you know like tearing it all down and then bringing it back up in your own vision but rather look at what systems are in place look at what people are already there what champions are here who's fighting and you know kind of reinforce them and bring our skill set to play in that battle awesome yes and I think I mean Heather and Rinku I know you don't speak for the entire policy community but here we have a lot of people who are deeply engaged and want to bring their skills to bear to make some of the change happen that you guys are arguing for and that we all are wanting to see in our world we have a couple of audience questions one from Carla Perez who's asking about social media which is of course a very important aspect of our media landscape our storytelling landscape it also really changes you know questions of agency which I think also gets to some of the stuff that I'm sure teller comes up in your book of who's the creator of the narrative and the consumer of the narrative we like to think that it makes us all more participatory in the creation of narratives but in fact in many ways obscures and consolidates control in different ways but I was wondering do you methods of narrative use in social media ones that you think are successful ones that aren't what would you like to see more of and maybe you could also add on to this question a little bit of you know what it is to build a campaign you know which is a specific thing that means something very specific in your world that I think is something that the rest of the audience would love to hear about this is Heather's sign to me and I'm personally so one of the things we are soon going to be doing at narrative initiative it's integrating in a project that I started before I got the job which is a ghostwriting service for organizers and community leaders and one of the things we help people develop is Twitter threads so I am a big fan of the well put together Twitter thread that has that gives people an entry point into facts and like the parameters of an issue but through the voice of the tweeter and we started to get to be really good at those and we figured out some of what makes them successful and and the great thing about a Twitter thread and about Twitter is that you can be an everyday person not an influencer not a person with hundreds of thousands of followers but if you create some good content and you're clear about who you're creating it for you can actually get like enormous spread on Twitter and on Instagram so I think social media like anything else it's a tool you can use it best if you have an idea of what you're trying to get out of it there are multiple possibilities and but no one can like do that thinking for you you you have to like think about what's my audience who's my target what who are the opponents and what am I trying to do with them am I trying to call them out am I trying to neutralize their messages am I trying to ignore them and like kind of shut them out of the debate so that I can populate it with the people that are going to help move it in my direction those are the kinds of strategy questions that if you're working with organizers I would be asking them to like if you're working with organizers on a video or a set of graphics asking questions about the audience the tactics that their campaign is going to be taking up those are all really important things and the answers to those will tell you whether social media is the right place to push that stuff out or not we also produce op-eds for people and I've noticed that whenever anyone calls us about op-eds they everybody wants to be published in the New York Times or the Washington Post but when I asked them what action do you want people to take after reading your op-ed and who's it for and they say well we want people to come join our organization and they're like a local organization I have to ask them so are the people in your organization reading the New York Times or are they reading the Oakland Tribune and which of those outlets is more likely to get to the people that you actually want to reach so we just have to get smoother and more automatic at asking those questions they're going to be the same three questions every time who's your audience what do you want them to do and what's the best platform to reach them on but we they're not quite old hat to us they're not there we still have to like remind ourselves to ask those questions awesome thank you so much there's one left audience question and then you guys can use that as an opportunity to give your final words a little bit I think the last word will automatically be had by Billy's dog Sprosh me Rama swamis asking I wonder how each of you views the aspect of time in your work and in tandem how do you view progress so I think with the kind of metrics of success that you just outlined in terms of having a really specific idea of not only your audience is what the motivation of the audience is and how that motivation can be augmented and this is a question for for everyone what do you what do you see as as success particularly you know I'm also very sensitive to something I talk about a lot but something I've heard a lot tonight that you know we can't exclusively rely on on the numbers of the metrics and what is calculable to tell these kinds of stories we have that connect it to the characters and the values so yeah in that in in that context what do we what do we think of as success for a campaign or for changing a deep story how do you want to do you want to go first with this and then we can open it up yeah sure I mean I think that ultimately this question of time and progress is really challenged by the ticking clock that we have on climate change and I think that's one of the big cross pressures to this look if we actually think about the time we're almost frozen in place right that's why I think it's really important to lift up what's already here you know the far greater number of people who are already working in solar than much of the fossil fuel sector all of the different projects and progress that is happening right now to make it feel less like we are constantly behind constantly behind where we need to be and then you know in terms of I just want to just add one quick thing and then just thank you all so much for this conversation to rank those three questions one is embedded you know between one and two but just to surface it you know not just what is your who's your audience and what what and what do you want them to do but but who's your audience and what are they currently thinking and how do they currently see your issue which I think is really really important as we are trying to communicate across not just ideological divides but also you know other kinds of divides with different stories that we're operating them thank you thank you so much Kelly Jeanette Billy would you like to close us out with any final thoughts or or would you like to put any of your students on this spot what does all of this mean in terms of an expanded field of practice for for designers how can we use what we've talked about tonight both both coming from from what what the studio promises that you guys are leading but also from what we've heard and what we've seen from the rest of our guests to yet to connect people to opportunities that can really help change the deep story of what it is we're talking about in the world how to build the world we want to see Kelly do you want to go first that's important that to be a lot of different sorts of stories too you know that that there's stories where you're reaching across there's ways that you're using social media to make certain things contagious but then also ways that you're using social media wrong like we had so many friends and interlocutors and farmers that we we tried to give them tools so like oh well it could sort of look like this you know which is very different from the way social media would be used then there's also as while there's conciliatory stories I think there should also be stories like those of Andres mom you know like how to blow up a pipeline you know there has to be a whole spectrum of stories that that start to push things along because the right wing's incredibly agile at this extremely good at it and and to go back to a previous question they have taken the long view on a deep story very strategically for for quite a long time that that yeah and we're still continuing to see the fruits of a very very long investment in in a deep story coming from the right wing. Jeanette or Billy did you have anything you want to add? I wanted to add that I think I'm always trying to find some way of negotiating that they're very real urgency of things with the desire and the necessity to just work slowly but I think in my experience building trust and like forming a shared language takes a lot of time and I'm increasingly realizing the significance of giving time for that process to emerge and you know it might just be simply a question of you know working with a partner who doesn't yet really understand what it is that architects do and like learning how to build that conversation so I really advocate for slowness at the same time. Really what do you think and what does your dog think more importantly? She's collapsed in my lab now so she's done with camera time um but no I'll say I'm going to borrow a bit from you know my my friends Dean Aldonico and Kader and I posted about a Stoney theory of Broncos and they're they're booked them to win and also from Ariana Palva um you know I think this question of time skills is interesting because I don't imagine being able to as much as I would want to to end capitalism on the same time scale let's say the decade of degree union or to abolish prisons overnight right so I think some of the some of the challenge before us is to how is how we think through the distributional consequences of our agenda literally in some cases buying people off and literally in other cases thinking about how we modulate and coach which we talk about our agenda without talking about our agenda and I think you know thinking through the ways that we might offer material economic alternatives to what are often employers of last resort and this is partly why you know I think so energizing in our studio to take on the fossil fuel system the prison system and the industrialized system um I grew up in public housing in rural Arkansas like I am uh well aware of the the ways in which those industries get their tendrils into those places and form and create real political formations around them even as they fail you know spectacularly and and regularly to deliver on their you know setting all of the grotesque ways they operate aside all the ways that they fail to deliver on their promised kind of economic jobs and so I think you know part of our job in a school of design is to think about how we take and center the demands of you know the various movements for racial economic housing and climate justice seriously and to reorganize our work around in pedagogy and programming like this which is part of why I'm so glad you put this event together pass them um and to think through all the other ways in which we can use whatever power and resources are at our disposal um you know to advance their agenda and to align ourselves with them over other forces who we historically align ourselves with thank you so much I think that's a really really beautiful sentiment for us to end on but also um to remind us that hopefully this is not um the end of this you know if we know one thing well and perhaps better than we did um a generation or two ago in the context of design pedagogy is that everything is connected not just in terms of the challenges and the root causes of those challenges but also the expertise is that we can bring to bear so I hope that this network can continue I hope the students can continue to share this work outside of I mean studio presents really wonderful opportunity to drill down deep into these issues but what I think you're the student work that's presented here really shows and I'm so glad some of some of you guys students are here I'm sorry we didn't have time for a longer conversation because I know you guys have a lot to share as well about this process but to really sort of keep those relationships going and keep the information flow going not just between individuals but between disciplines it is all hands on deck to to get the green new deal the aims of the new deal achieved and to do it in a way that really is mindful Billy to your point of the distributional effects of change right and making sure that that and that has a lot to do with timescale and a lot to do with success right and how we sort of measure those both within political cycles and also beyond them and how we think about you know the follow-on effects and the downstream effects of policy choices in the future right I mean Keller your studio I think so beautifully really reminds us that the past is very much present with us in terms of the reality of these large-scale structural changes in our policy that can lead to change of the infrastructure but also hopefully changes in how the impacts of a more equitable climate future could be distributed so thank you guys so much for your work thank you to the students for allowing us to share it in this forum please continue to communicate with each other and we will do our part on our end to make it as easy as possible for students who have been been involved in the super studio green new deal projects to continue to communicate and please do consider when you guys graduate putting your skills to use in advance of specific policy change we have two two policy leaders here but they are many many many more in their network and beyond that I know could really their work can really benefit from the ways in which you guys are thinking about not only just visualizing the future but but really sort of interrogating the systems that need to be enhanced or inhibited in order to get us there so thank you all so much for being a part of this event and I look forward to continuing the conversation offline and thank you for your time and have a great evening bye bye