 Hello everybody. If it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly joining me as always It's Tom. What's up, buddy? Hello friends. Can I be your Valentine? Like this is almost a Valentine's Day show No, you cannot Tom because my Valentine is the one and only mr. Mephisto. How you doing, buddy? I Am living the dream every day all the time exactly No, Meph became my Valentine when he told me he was like, yeah, we were playing a rift's game and You know like I think he said Joe was playing a shifter I was like a shifter that crappy magic class. He's like, well, he was a demigod shifter and I was like, oh, okay Never mind now Third things third things right around you for you forgot a key you forgot a key Part of that he's a double shifter Right, so you can be the shifter class and then as your demigod ability take shifter so he has a double packed with Odin Yes, he's a shifter shifter So he's got like a boatload of spell the boatload of PPE like it's great. That's great. Yes. Yep Totally checks out that immediately put me on board So that's why it matters my Valentine when he's soon as he set out rolling up demigods I was like well now we're in the now we're in the area of rifts. I like so at any rate That's not what we're here to talk about tonight. Although Meph's sometime you and I should just do a completely rift's dedicated Rank cast at some point that'd be a lot of fun. I Agree, we'll book it Book it now. Yeah, so at any rate tonight It's time to return to Meph's other passion, which is the bone daddies the OBR the Aussi arc bone reapers We're gonna revisit them. They've been out on the scene now for about three months They've been in a heck of a lot of tournaments and we're gonna just talk about where we think they're at Okay, but first of course, we've got news. Oh my gosh, we have some news so much news. This is a new week There's some stuff There's a little bit of stuff. Yes a few things. Oh, I Just gotta thank you in advance the one week like so so my whole layoff ended at the beginning of like just on Monday That's my first day back to work. You couldn't have me on when I was less busy for a whole month of layoff Until my brain is fried so then just completely off the ball on current events. That that's how that's how this thing works This will be all exciting for you because some of this you might be just hearing as well. Yeah, see that's that's how I do Rantcast so like let's go So Yes, it's a little bonsai tree on the side of a rock So I assume this is another base for one of the elf things It's the other It's the other non-mounted or non-tech less Monster like a non-tech less Sphinx base. Yeah, I mean this this bonsai tree exists on one of the pieces we've already seen So the only question this really is is is this bond? Bonsai tree is this exactly whose boat is this boat? It's a question of like or is it the terrain piece We don't know if they get a train piece yet. It could also be I mean they don't get a train piece I'll love it. It's just a big rock Like a way a waystone like a one of the one of those wayfinders at a Bynslenesh I mean, maybe yeah, I could see that I could see that wouldn't it be neat if they like if they were a Protoss like pylon constructing race I Construct more pylons and you're like Like pylons over the table. No, I mean maybe I could also see like a world tree or overwhelming Like I know that I know that this isn't Sylvan F But I could see some type of world tree or something maybe Like the Tree of Ages or I don't know I don't know didn't the didn't the guy when you became like the super Zealot wasn't he just like armor floating around with little red gas inside or whatever for what Starcraft yeah Physical body right at that point. Yeah, yeah, it's like I'll come right on Yeah, and it just maybe it just occurred to me that like I'll sorry and is that guy that he's gone Super Zealot or whatever. It's been a long time since I've played star Right on yeah, I mean so there might be something there Maybe maybe the hiles are just they've embraced the protoss like character of the race So I don't know so in the lower right hand You actually see a little bit of lip of this looks like a lip to me Yeah, not like a rocky out like so so I don't think we're getting a like a true perspective This might be at an angle and that's like a ridge or something right it could be yeah That could be it could be we got a bad angle and it could just be a sharp piece of rock firing up And I and I it feels like the lower part of something right I hope it's just I hope it is the terrain piece and it just casts like Banishment every turn that's it. That's its ability Just so that like there's a faction people hate more than OBR just upon seeing the terrain sure as Hated as hard as they hate an OBR for like the dong Well, it'll also be bigger than the That their their model if yeah, we'll show up and be even larger than the OBR And how much of a nightmare would that be and it can be put on objectives like and it can be put on objectives So then if you ever do the OBR versus Lumineth game It's just this massive fight over who rolls the die to get their giant terrain piece down first They're yeah, they're literal phallus on the table just unfurled before all all to see it'd be great. Yes, exactly I Want I want this now, please okay design team I know this thing's already put together But you need to like delay the release and make this thing bigger than the bone type nexus go back into the z-cad Yeah, yes We just called the exact same scale rate I I feel like it's just something that's either one of the big monster bases or it's a little corner of their terrain No, I think like I think we'll get a Sphinx that's not only Like here's the call It's part of the base of another of another sphinxie thing That's on Teclas's base that has a head swap and can either be mounted or unmounted and the mounted version Has some type of Elflord on it. Okay like a generic Elflord Yep. Yep. Okay. That's the call. All right. What's the possibility of it being this is Tyrion's base? No, are we getting no when I get both? I mean, I certainly hope we don't I'm afraid we will I have I'm I Originally was pretty bullish on Tyrion not being in this force But I've since lost that after reading some of the things that I've you know, we've read I really hope he's not here I mean Because I want the force they described him having and nothing in this current force excites me So like if it's just a bunch more elves that show up and they're all pretty much just elves and then Tyrion rolls out What a waste what a terrible waste Mm-hmm, as opposed to that army of flying angel elves. I was promised Yeah, I was really I was really Really hoping for like we'd get the like the Razifon angel like robot. I was really hoping for that and when I saw these I'm like, oh, it's just elves and don't get me wrong I'm really happy for people who wanted like a proper reads as elves Of course, of course, you know, like super happy They it looks like they went a little they went a little weird in the right places, you know with with with with Teclas himself Yeah, I'd rather be I'd rather be too weird than been to we don't need to revisit Teclas again in the train That I bear that figure is but yeah, fair enough. Well, he's jumping off the trampoline, right? I Don't think I had went this last week and I was like cool like I had a good week. Thanks, Vince That's right the authoritarian dudes awesome remember him just think about yeah, just thinking that yeah, that guy's sweet I Really really hope that he's in a separate faction and then it's just a totally different army and that each of the elvish gods has their Own army, you know, like I understand Marathi is not technically a god Somebody somebody asked about that on the last show because when I when I mentioned that like then each of the elvish gods would have their own army like All the way down the line and yes, she's not really a god, but she's basically a god All right, she's on she's on that level. She really wants to be a god. She's tougher than a laurel I'll tell you that much for sure I'll take any day of the week and I guarantee you're gonna walk away with a dead a laurel We yeah, I I know all about that fight shout out to a Jimbo That was a great matchup had a icon last year Nice so at any rate, that's what it is So all right, let's move on past the little bonsai tree because undoubtedly we're gonna see more of this over time We know we are because we're gonna keep getting Little reveals every two weeks They're really slow playing it though the last reveal they had which we don't have as a news I we do have as a news item, but I'll just cover it now The obviously this last Monday they came out with a new article Yeah, and they like went deep on the lore of the spear dudes. Yeah. Yep. Yep Yeah That first paragraph and like everyone's just like they're gonna attack in the moon phase and just like the immediate like Like night terrors began Well because it basically said yes, the belief of the elves is that they're better at everything than everyone That's their thing right Right, yes, I got get it. It makes sense. Sure. Sure. No Yeah, I don't I don't even care Craig it to 11 go like break the knob off and just like and go Like I just I got I got what I want and I want everyone to feel as happy as I've just felt Since like August of last year, but you like everyone should get should have this feeling that I have right now Yeah, I mean I I get it I do But um look I have a deep-seated hatred for high elves and it's a win-win for me. Oh, really? Oh, yeah Yeah, yeah, I didn't know this about you Pegg just kind of liking high elves anything that Tom likes Vince doesn't I don't know if you figure that out yet Dwarves high elves Nurgle anything that I put my flag down on Vince is like nah, but yeah, but you do that like every month So that must leave him with nothing I mean I've got my stuff. He hates the Nash. There you go. I do Like yeah, like I won't touch what ash. Yeah, so The only way to keep the like to keep the The the dark Prince unsatisfied no touching So I know better I know how to win that war It occurs to me that with that article that came out these guys might be a long way off And what I mean by that is didn't that article feel like they're really slow-playing it because that was like a lot of words about Nothing about nothing about yeah, I mean what it says is that we're we're like March to April Like late March early April like confirmed like that's what that that's what the article reads to me It's like I could see them doing six to eight articles Right probably close to six. Yeah, and then that puts them right around release In that March to April like especially if they just did one on this on the spear guys Right if we get I'm saying if just the spear guys got their whole own article then There's more units that we haven't seen yet. How much are we gonna slow play this out? Right. Yep. Well, they they've showed us like the spear. They didn't even do that for bone reapers I know it's that I'm not bringing it back just because the brand here brand here But also the topic. No boners was about a six was about a six-month release, right? I think July is when we got the first thing it might have been August Wasn't until actual November that they did they had the full launch because they did get the feast of bones out first and then By the time was just the tail end of October as promised. They were coming out to over So technically correct is the best kind of correct and they were technically correct. Yeah So like I figure elf like high elf players can suffer for at least three more months The way I suffered That's fine Yeah, I mean, I don't care. I it's certainly it's certainly great for me if they if ever if all the high-off players have to wait longer Uh, I drink in your delicious suffering Uh, so, you know, but it just I what makes me wonder how far out that army is so it's interesting Always is what I what is my read on the situation Sure Because if they get that granular with these articles, which are only every two weeks It felt more like a sisters of battle article Yeah, right where you had this year long release cycle and it was like hey, here's the guns It's just a whole article of the bolters not even all the guns just bolters. These these are the they're holy sacred Bolters of the ecclesiarchy or whatever ecclesiastia. How do you say it? Right? It's it's possible that it's more about it's actually more of like just a hype train though because all players have waited Probably the longest to get their like Full on here's no really real elves, you know The dark decaying is clear, but I don't think it it it really strikes the board and idk. I barely consider them elves Um, they're fish folk. Like they're not really they look a lot like elves too much like elves for people who wanted fishmen It's one of the challenges of that. It's like right in the middle. Yeah, but like proper elves You know like if you if you're a dwarf player You got kao and fire slayers and I feel like that like really You know that that was the yin and yang of like the two halves of like of like the dwarf player Of the most part Yeah, like as opposed to like just the classic racist dwarves, which I guess a lot of people love too But like that really felt like it was you pick your flavor of dwarf and like you can commit to it And then like there's people who's just like we just want vanilla It's the most sellingest flavor on the planet and there's nothing wrong with people who love vanilla ice cream I happen to love vanilla ice cream. This is the elf This is absolutely the elf release for people who like vanilla ice cream and cheese pizza But it's like but it's like exactly but like that's again That's a huge group of people and they they waited pretty much the longest all the way into a full on second edition Um, and so it might just be they're just like They're just yeah, they're padding for time. They're building hype. They're doing all the marketing stuff You're supposed to do but they're really just going here. Here's all the like breadcrumbs. We should have been feeding you all along We're so sorry that you've just been starved Um, so it could be a little bit of that too. Like yeah, that's like a small a small like we're sorry Here's some Only elf players would care to hear about the blades of grass on the base of the elf model I mean, I understand Here's what I'll say. I'm I'm good with that I as I I agree with your original point more than anything That you're right There is a huge contingent of people who are excited for this and I'm excited for them Not everything needs to appeal to me. That's perfectly fine I am I am okay with With people like what you like. I'm not going to yuck. You're young like if that's what people enjoy Thumbs up. It's not what I enjoy. I like weird stuff. And so bring all you do There you go. You do right. Yeah, it's true. I'm okay with that. Uh, all right. What's our next thing in news? Um, weird my tap go. Uh, thank you. Thank you. Okay. Oh, yeah. Thank you. Actually. Yes, that is the next one Hey So the FAQ got FAQed Yep, which is fantastic. I'm so happy Like I I would ask nothing else for both the zinge and ko FAQs We wouldn't expect any less from two of the most contentious complicated books Here's what I love about that. They looked at the release schedule And said these are two of the most controversial complicated books, you know, let's let's do this Let's write them both at the same time And release them in a box together and put them out together Yeah, I feel like that was just uh, probably not the best choice overall. That was ambitious It should have been like it should have been like ogres with zinge like the simplest book with the most complicated book or something like that Yeah, uh, but anyway, so tangible changes that happened Yeah, so ko can one drop again. Sure as we basically always knew they could but it needed to be clarified anyways great Right. Yeah. Yay garrison Way to fix it. All right. Yep. Cool. And then for the zinge dice like they reworded it so that it didn't go wonky and didn't create a bunch of weird corner cases and Battle shock of the or a destiny dice one on the horrors will now restore to them Right, right, which is what I call last week. Sure. Of course. I mean, that's a perfectly look you could read it both ways It was fine. This is the way it broke. It's easy to sit on this side of it and go ha ha ha You know, I was right, but it just could have been they could have just as easily ruled the other direction And you would have also been like yep Gloating is literally what sustains me though. So i'm gonna gloat. Oh, okay I mean like It's kind of like what I do in this show. I understand it is your role here but I Do I um, I think that Like people wanted to read it the other way so thoroughly. They were forgetting english Sure Because it said the exception in it. It was just like they put the parenthetical Well, they used the parenthetical and they simply shouldn't in in in rules writing You don't kind of put the parenthetical in the middle of the sentence You put something on the end to clear you put a clarifying statement at the end rather So like I think that was a misstep, but like But like that's where all the confusion comes from I think if they just shifted that parenthetical to the end People would have read it correctly because people were just wanting to read it the other way I see we see this all the time in like rpgs. We were like it just doesn't work that way You know, like read it read it back Break the sentence down. What is it actually saying? And like it said the exception kind of there and I'm happy they clarified it though because like you said you could argue it either way And especially like like games works games works up rules sometimes have this thing where if you overthink them you can trick yourself out of What you know to be true Yeah, yeah, you know like pylon pylon is one of those exceptions one of those one of those times So like when can a unit pylon when it charges or when it's within three inches and you start reading other abilities And you're like and you start to get a little bit confused, you know with things that have six inch pylons You know double activations where things like that happen. I think that was a little bit of what was going on there If people were reading themselves in a loop Just you know We didn't we didn't get the chance to slow down and we're really angry at z right now as a community So we wanted them to not have the thing We wanted the community wanted to inflict inflict pain. Yeah So they got a little slight buff from the faq faq slight They needed that whores were really on the edge of being on yeah, they're unplayable almost Oh, no, sorry. It's there on the edge of being the best unit in the game. I apologize. That was the other way around um On the edge on the edge I don't know those more tech guard Yeah It's it's but it's fine. Whatever like we're all gonna live with it now for the next six months And then come ghb 2020 we can all just Not have this happen anymore and hopefully things will be corrected because I think most of the problems are points and Ta-da, then things to be fixed. We've just all got to basically suffer through We gotta let each win a con and show fields water I don't think it's gonna win a con. I think the fields wide enough. It's yeah, I mean in giant in giant You know It's like such anyone's game, you know, like I I would agree That had the largest, uh, you know the largest event in the world Touche Touche time And certainly that could have broken easily to where a city's a sigmar player would have taken it Right, it's not like that was a smash game and in game six like the the city's player was in that the whole time Right sure and and we would have been like, oh well They got smashed by cities or whatever, you know, and then and cities were on top and so Like the counterfactual is like let's say there was that was a 60 40 game and zin just favors That means four out of the 10 times it gets played cities wins that game right um So, you know, like it's just it's gonna be out of bounds And in some way and we're just gonna have to be like, okay That's what it is and it'll get corrected and fine But at a big event like that things can just break weird You know, I know there are going to be several good players. They're playing zinch, but that doesn't mean things can't get weird It's true Yeah, I mean I just point out I mean, let's point out that last uh last, uh, acon seraphon walked away in the midst of the height of of daughters Daughters was on tables one two and four maybe And it didn't podium at all At acon Because it went it went seraphon scaven's Uh, something else. Yeah, sure. Tronzo was the scaven. Yeah. Tronzo was too. Yeah. Oh, oh, I know I know Yeah, Tom I really feel like daughter's not podiuming was your fault since you were the one position with daughters and lost to the guy who got second So it's pretty much your fault. They didn't it was me and chai Uh, this chai was on table one with daughters and I was on table. Yeah, chai was also there Yeah, you and chai let us down. Yeah, chai is like he's a better daughter's player than you admittedly I totally I don't I don't think that's I don't think that's ruffling your fat Although he is like chasing my armies like we both had mixed order armies the prior year of like arcana heavy mixed order that last year was uh, both daughters Uh, we'll see what uh, he turns up with this year There are innovators and then there are pilots tom. You sir are an innovator That doesn't mean you're not a skilled pilot, but like everyone's got their strengths, man There you go. It's true. All right. What else we got? I have to say ahead of the meta. Sure. That's the key. Yeah Uh ZKL a giant book has shipped done done done. That's right 197 boxes of sweet sweet giant books the shipping manifest leaked GW just put out the article Just do it. What are we doing here guys? Yeah, I mean put out that giant article, right? Like we all know at this point. We all enjoyed your little zote joke. That was fun Yay, but now we've seen two shipping labels. The book is confirmed Just put out the article that we have to wait for it Do you know who's stopping me from reading my sweet article on giants and knowing what the heck that army's gonna be all about People no no, it's not people It's the lizard men. They're doing this. Yeah, it's their fault. I mean, they're gonna they're gonna be a dual box, right? Like that's that's the uh, I doubt it because what would it be two giants three giants? I mean, I think it'll just be two independent releases, but who knows. I mean, maybe okay My particular feeling is just that and that's why I think they're separate if they were coming out together We'd basically know about both of them right now because they'd be building up hype to both of them Yeah, like they did with with the the feast of bones, right? Like because we got ma tribes and ovr in that same to release schedule You know, my friends got their one video and then crickets Uh, the whole time. Uh, while I just like enjoyed the spotlight and and uh built an entire podcast out of nothing Over how awesome us yardbone reapers were and you were right. So there you go Sometimes you gotta look you got a bet big to win big my friend. Right, right, uh So the point is is that those stupid lizards Are keeping me from learning about my giants because they don't want to steal the thunder of the seraphon Like the seraphon need their time in the sun The thunder of yeah the thunder quake of seraphon really. Yeah, they're like They're going to be You know these people look if we if we must feel for anybody if our heart must go out to anyone It must truly be the seraphon players No, because elvish players have had things to do Right. I just feel bad for downtrodden zines right now. They have to have two FAQs for like one ability It's really rough. No, like seraphon have waited so long in this cycle for their actual book They've been an army that exists running on the fumes of rules for just ever Right and and like I want them to get their time in the sun. So let's hurry up with that Can we get this article out? When is this seraphon book coming out? Sooner rather than later. Hopefully like tomorrow. I want to do the pre-order thing next sunday be Lizard men are going on pre-order next weekend. That's what I want to see I want to see sunday though. Whatever to the next sunday is 16 sunday the 16th saying that's that Saturday the 22nd or whatever whatever it is. I don't know however that works You'll be able to pre-order z or sorry a seraphon. That's what I want Boom Make it happen. Get these lizards out Everybody get their book. Get them sweet pyramids out. Let's all start celebrating. Let's all have a lizard party We can all have our slan seraphon uh lizard man party Our spawning we can all have a great spawning And uh, and then we can all move on and forget about them and get to the giants, which is the real story excuse me I'm actually like I I I have like a hidden agenda for wanting seraphon to be back and I want them to be awesome But like there it doesn't look like they're getting the new sculpts So like I also get a sigh of relief because My son just got his first model. Okay, like first age of stigma model this last week um If the dinosaur army came out like I'd have to not buy the house we're trying to close on and like just Yeah, yeah So so uh, I'm I'm like I'm happy but I'm sad I'm conflicted All right, so that's what I want to see I want to see that like I I want to see the lizard make it all the time I want to see celebrations. I want to see community articles galore. I want to see people excited A parade perhaps Absolutely throw a lizard man parade down lizard man street with lizard men floats and lizard man balloons giving out lizard man popsicles And throwing lizard man hard candy to little lizard men babies in the crowd And then once that parade's over we can sweep up and make way for the giants Yeah, yep I'm for it signed. All right, excellent. Uh, so, um Plus as a scaven player, I'm excited to see some of my old enemies get their book back They ate our god once and I'm not forgiving them for that ever Me checks out. Yeah. No, I like when you like it feels better like, you know, raising Uh rising tide lifts all boats type thing, right? Like like when your enemies like when k like ko was like coming back out I'm just like I'm like, oh clown car again. I already know this menace. Let's go like the gosh versus clown car Our battle will be legendary. You like when my old rivals are good Then I just I feel more invested in the game It's it's part of that like that little like narrative that you just like a personal narrative It doesn't have to be like my character's backstory. No, but like the things that make you like the armies you like Giving you that little extra thing good villains Make you like things better every great like the best stories in the world have great villains Um, like so when you're you're villain in the case context of a war game is another army Yeah, you're you just have the most fun games. I think no totally agree It's so much fun to hate on armies in this game, right? Like we all love to have the armies that we hate I say that with little finger air quotes because I mean that right like I don't I don't One should never be rude or mean to somebody for liking a thing. That's not what I mean That's but there's there's fun hatred, right? Like we can all be like like I like me making fun of negash like you making fun of sigmar Like that's the fun of this thing when we all get to like put on our personality hat Of somebody who lives in that world and lives that experience and hates that thing that's super fun and I personally Hate high elves for example and we'll hate them in this incarnation as well So there we go. See like my my go-to army to hate for the longest time has been zinch and like being Being the contrarian I am The internet hates zinch right now So I have to be a smarmy bastard and like meme on those people and troll those people So like zinch needs to be brought down a tap so that I can go back to hating them and feeling good about myself And not hating them and feeling like I'm one of the like One of the child is no fun. Oh, we've got a request for a hot take. All right. We ready everybody So john shaves has said there is a rumor that the adepticon reveal will be a completely new faction He would like our best scathing hot take on that. Well, first of all, I'd be shocked if it was no Let me let me roll that back. I would be surprised if it was I would not be shocked. That's too strong Because assume we all know the elves are coming and so let's say most of the elvish stuff is revealed by that point And then they go here's the final piece of the elvish puzzle revealed in all its glory And also but but but wait it gets worse and then like here comes the big thing So what's the giant reveal new faction? For adepticon and it can't be giants. It can't be giants. No, we can't we already know that's we already know that's happening It's not giants. It's not elves. Yeah, but they've teased it. They haven't like officially revealed Okay, but but for the thought experiment. Okay for the thought all right The the brand new scaven thing whatever it is. Oh, okay. So a new scaven clan Yeah, like the whatever happened to ash and molder like type thing like we're gonna get that And you it's actually on a warhammer weekly. You were talking about like where's the new scaven tech Yes, yes, I I want to see the a osified Scaven tech they're already cranked to 11. I think dare I say they can go to 13 I think so they could yeah, obviously there they have a setting that goes to 13 Right, right, and I don't think we've seen the setting go like cranked up to 13, you know Only 11 So so like I want to see the I think scaven can be sweet. All right dig it tom Yeah, I could go with scaven. What Caribbean fact what Caribbean themed faction are you going to guess? No, I think that like if Like if they're going to push it I think that we get like we had to have the Re-release of the ko In order to actually like push that narrative and so here here's my call Is that I'm going to go with either I agree with you on scaven like And they may harken back to the like um The island of blood box Because you have the high elves that have now arrived. Yeah, sure. And so there could be this like fun little play on You know like a new challenger has arisen Otherwise because of the ko release I could see either the scaven Or the infamous Grot back scholars. Yeah, yeah being because like as much as I think that scaven would be a neat release I think it's going to be something destruction. Okay All right I've got what I would call Yeah, okay Oh, okay. I think it's too close to elves too close too soon. There are a bunch of weird satyrs and centaurs and crap It's it's fine. Are we approaching one full one full calendar year from the uh, the work The warband, uh, yes. Yeah, roughly that that's I mean, that's the that's the trend, isn't it? So you get one foot That's that's all All right. All right, there you go So there's there's our hot takes I'd love it. I here's what I say I'll hope we get something like what would blow me away is if we got something just totally new like people You know elementals crystal people Uh, whatever weird thing like a lichen throat based army Uh, a completely different take on like vampiric hordes Uh, I could see a crystal based army Based in haish because I think whatever it is it's going to be based in haish Um, if we did scaven I could see them going the route of like of ulgu like light and darkness Like light and shadow is a duality there Um, like I could see them doing that but I could also see like a rock people in haish Right like a crystal based light based um like elemental something Any any elementals or god beast beast armies would just be sweet 100 you know like just Bring out the huge awesome crap. Yeah, like well, they would be like sons of the god beast Yeah, that's fine. Cool. Yeah. Yeah, I'm down with that. Yes, please For my health and well being I have to say not vampires this year Please like let me finish the bone daddies before you get me the own Oh, like there's so much space they could play around with with vampires if they made the move like magic did from turning vampires from an iconic into a Uh, whatever magic has terms for it, right? Like iconics are like dragons are in red where they're all like five five and they have to be expensive And then uh, you know goblins are there like a different word They have a different word for those two types of creatures, right? Like the base creature is is a thing and then the big creature that represents that color is a thing So like dragons and goblins in red and they made a move You know back in like in a strut or whatever where vampires went from the iconic and being large and powerful to The the weedier dudes he had like one one and two two vampires and stuff like that And I just think you could do that same thing like that's that's that castlevania series Shows you vampires all up and down the power scale, right? Like there was vampires that just got blown through Right that were just cut down like wheat by both the good guys and the bad guys And then there's also You know Dracula who was an alucard. Yeah, just nigh unkillable, you know monsters, right? Well, I actually think that they they they could set up the quote-unquote order undead Like with vampires. Oh, sure Because you have you have that backstory with like aberrash and like the ratonians And like they basically just like piece out through a portal and aberrash Supposedly cures his his soul blight by drinking dragon's blood or some shit. Yeah Like you you could maybe he didn't cure it He's like a freaking dompere now and he comes back like this like half vampire redeemed night sort with like his sweet Whatever super britannian Like like pseudo vampire army in its order now Like then you get your opposition to to nagash that everybody wants so so desperately and then you have this like really cool um Really get to like kind of play around with like the idea of like your your idea of like a gold faction, right? You played around with that a little bit um Like I think that like I I want vampires don't don't misquote me internet. I truly want them But like I have two I have like two lobs. It's like it's like skeletons and vampires like I want to play Castlevania the army Yeah, I guess Games workshop ruined that for me a long time ago when they split up my army Uh, but like I'm much richer now so I can afford more than one army than when I was like a teenager mowing lawns So like don't do this to me yet right So here's my question one do vampires in Age of Sigmar explode in sunlight? Yes, is that a thing? No, no way because Manfred seemed like he walks around in the day Ish like if he just kind of makes it cloudy, it seems like he's fine Yeah, maybe like direct sunlight, but he always like all the powerful vampires could just like make it cloudy And they could still be out in the daytime as long as there's like partial partial cloud cover That's all that the the war altar sigmar is is just shooting light beams Light is holy blessed light is different than sunlight to a degree anyways question two And this goes to planescape one of the reasons vampires are great in planescape because there is no sun It's just there's fake light like you could be a vampire in sigil and be out any time of the day Right is the light of heish or whatever because that's what light comes from right like when the plane of heish is in ascendance It's it's daytime Yeah, right is that sunlight does that kill a vampire? I'm gonna say probably not Well, right because that's not the sun right And that's the thing is like the I don't know like vampire tropes are like superstitious based And like as we moved away from superstition, we've had to like invent First off get your realism out my on my games So I'll concede my point before I make it but like as we moved on as like a nerd culture We've expected better explanations for stuff and like I just I don't think garlic And and sunlight and no reflection vampires are really like that awesome anymore you know They probably like our twilight sparkle vampires Make my lifetime that was incredible. I would drink so many salty tears This is the worst idea No I'm blaming you at any rate So they're really going for a new demographic New teenage girls like a new demographic. Oh, no, they need an army. That's not sylvanath Azear is space. Azear is like space. It's it's it's yeah, it's just kind of it's the heavens But heish is is day and we'll do his night In there it like yeah, okay. Anyway next news item We have like a bunch of like they are finally taking the like the acts that we've been holding over them for a year now of like the one-off models in the dual boxes Um, that's right We frankly got our bombardier and art regent and sylvanath guy I love that sylvanath guy. Um and uh The loon boss on squig and the tyrant and uh, volk marion. Oh port bach mortian. Yeah, the worthless guy So here's the question like I was about to say this tells me that it heralds the end of the box generation Right like I saw that But and then it dawned on me that is absolutely not what this heralds because we just got the engrine master and the uh and the And the magistran disc which what that tells me is that we are probably going to like this is Maybe this is the new release cycle where you'll have these exclusives That'll be because that is all the dual boxes for 20, um for 2019 Yeah, and and now we're into january of 2020. So all of them drop as a release And so i'm wondering if like now for anybody wants an engrine master They need to wait till next january to buy them on individual Right, sure on one hand it doesn't matter because you can just buy brock and there's no other Making an image an engrine master and original suit. So that's that's an irrelevant kit batch. I mean That character technically already exists because brock is pointless. So And then you can like you can take the head off of him Put like an engrine master head and then use that brock head on a different model That's what I did. Yeah, sure And it was like totally like let me just say that head wasted on brock looks great on my admiral though sure absolutely and So there's there's one maybe I mean what I hope this heralds Is that yes, we will now regularly release these and you can bet on that great I am so I was so thrilled when that article went up on sunday And they were like we're sorry here. They all are Enjoy because I was super excited because I wanted to get one of those tyrants just to paint like I wanted one of those New ogre tyrants for my ogre army and to paint him. It's such a cool sculpt But I wasn't gonna go by the whole box and I didn't I had an ogre army already. I didn't need more Right, right I talked to hay while I hear he has spares So I like stuff like that excites me now I had already picked up enough bombardiers to cover me. I have three bombardiers already. So I was like, okay good on that But you know just cool stuff like that And I'm okay with I'm not being available at the time of the box Totally makes business sense. I get it You want to be kind of an exclusive if you want three months or six months after the box comes out I'm fine, but it shouldn't go longer than that Right, right that's and I by the way my personal taste would be to lean toward three months for those kind of exclusive that feels nicer I think you've got the initial like to sell through the initial inventory and get into a second printing is sort of the The business that you're trying to accomplish. Do they ever go to second printings on dual boxes? Well, I don't want to sell through the well That's the thing is like the the goal is to sell through the initial printing of the box And then the second printing be those models by themselves. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yep. So like the notion I think what I think it was eight or war was the first box that didn't sell out Interesting So we've been pushing them and pushing them to over to produce more because we keep bought we keep buying them out And this one we everybody was like, yeah, that's all right But those players already had Basically the entire armies Sure Like yeah, he had to buy flamers to replace their sky fires. Oh, no, like, you know, like everyone two things one Half of that box isn't the new hotness currently Right, right on either disks Uh, well, I would argue that like the endermasters that are in there. Sorry the endron rigors that are in there are still perfectly viable and good They're a good unit uh and two If you if you liked those zinch Sky fires or enlightened they've gone through so many phases of being You know broke slash good slash bent slash whatever Everybody who wanted those already had them Right, right. Yeah, like those were were just so already commonplace um And then with the rigors though Well, and then ko players probably aren't as like absolutely huge Uh, oh, robert said you can still order wrath and rapture. Interesting that that one stuck around Huh That's the that's a cross 40k one too, isn't it? Yeah, maybe that's why it's kind of different because it also has that 40k element to it I don't know. It's interesting. Um, I mean, I bought one. So there you go. Uh That's that's interesting. And then yes, as steve keen said or maybe they just produced enough eighth awards Like they have been stepping up production. So maybe they just actually had it now Yes, it didn't sell out, but we don't know how that we don't there could be five left You know, that could be the number Actually checked and it's not on the site anymore So it looks like they finally did sell out the their inventory of it But I but I do know that like for a while that like there were lots of those left. Well, good. Maybe that just tells you that they actually produced enough Yeah All right Worst kind of demand don't do that shit. Yeah, sure We want to buy your stuff gw you don't need to play tricks on us No, yeah, it's they I mean, which I don't think was ever really their intention A lot of people push that that narrative and I know that that just never rocked to me I'm just meaming. I understand because like they wanted to make enough stuff to sell Them producing 20 extra box sets or 100 extra box sets the cost of that offset versus losing 100 sales It's not even close Right, that's like the the cost to profit ratio there is just it's not even the same ballpark Right But in addition to those guys that is to say those things Of you're down side are are up. You shut your dirty face That's right. The mind stealer sphere ranks finally going on pre-order along with the fomaroid crusher, which okay, whatever cool cool Like I'm happy for them. I think about that thing But I think I'm just not excited because of how excited you are of it That like it's not is the best relationship again. There's that relationship again. Yeah That cat is the best model they've made In the past 10 years except for the keeper of secrets except you are out of your damn mind putting down Second best model. No catacross has redefined what it even means to be a model in the game of age of sigmar He's a walking diorama. Yes. He he doesn't even make sense Like in like the way like his modeling technology is from the future when it's just all dioramas fighting dioramas sure I am somewhat sad math that we're not going to get to talk about uh Rathity ever chosen this week because I I'll I'll I'll love to get you. I'll watch your show because I'm sure you Hot takes galore. Yeah. Yes on on catacross is like Whatever jobber status in there like for no reason like what the fuck Uh, pardon my language just come on There's ours No, like archion just like so tired of winning This is like character just like man. I just can't stop winning like i'm walking along with all holding all these w's And I just dropped one like oh man It's not worth my time to bend over and pick up that w because i'm holding on so many My my flight to the top has just been laden with obstacles as a as an antagonist like oh I freaking hate archion. What a piece of Mary sue garbage Like this this total like scaven I can forgive because like they they're wacky and they lose sometimes too and they're I would argue they lose arch me out. It's just all the time. Yes. Yeah, fine. And our kids just like oh, man I'm just so great at everything. I'm just gonna like why did archion stop fighting like oh He just got so tired of winning like he just like yeah Like he's not even like he doesn't even have the good sense to be like a gorka morca. Who's just like who's like like just Has to like murder all the time and it's like a downside No, like archion's just like I am gonna cool it for a little bit Like he's not even like fully coming into his own ideals of being ins I'm so mad I'm yeah, and it has nothing to do with the categories. It could be anybody and I'm just like Oh, yeah, yeah, oh, yeah, like he like I don't want to give any spoilers. We'll do that on the show next Fine fine, but it was uh, yes, it was a fun read I did I read the whole narrative of the book anybody anybody else anybody made me it made me laugh Let me just say that like from a narrative standpoint, like I think gw really missed the boat Um, and I'm not talking about that I'm just talking about with archion in general like I want to put a picture of this They should have been a formed hero during the end times and turned against the mascots Well, no, no, no, no, no. I think he should have led the charge all the way to the end Right and then in that far a fight with sigmar get smacked with the hammer or whatever And has like the chaos knocked out of him, right and he repents As they fall into the abyss. Yeah. Yeah, and he's he's like okay We always like the beginning in our prediction thing that he should have been the one founding the the good guys rebellion instead of sigmar he He should and well, no, I think that sigmar should still be the god But I think the difference is is that this is the man that struggled with a god And then walked away respecting and following him. Yeah, sure and he and he should have became the celestine prime Yep, unfortunately, he can't because you know models exist Right, right the narrative in this in this game in these games will always be somewhat handcuffed because they're tied to physical models Yeah, if we were just writing a novel that's absolutely the the the story we would have told Right, you would have had that that villain Turn and go on this long redemption arc where he struggles with being an anti hero and he struggles with the darkness inside of it You how about How about any struggle at all for the like good stories require, uh, tension They require conflict He has no conflict like he has nothing It's the laziest Garbageist villain they have in this game. Yeah, he is He is a bullet train that cannot be stopped. Yes when he shows up Remember when I just Yeah, I destroyed the last world and I just got like bored and so then I showed up and I just started kicking everyone's ass on This new world until I got bored. Yeah, sure. Like he's just like And and by the way, no matt I think so matt austin pointed out that like that falls apart when you know that Archeon was a priest in the empire and learned some dark truth and then went to cast No, I think that's exactly what makes that story correct because it shows the cyclical nature of everything, right? Like yes, he was a priest and he learned some dark secret and blah blah blah blah Perfect and now he realizes that the secret doesn't matter or the truth of it didn't matter that the world is more complicated That that it's not that like his initial instinct when he was a priest was as a child that everything was black and white And he thought he was on the side of that that good And then he learns this truth about evil and he's still acting as a child just rebelling And so his journey and evolution into quote unquote adulthood is that is the spin back around the circle Where he enters the gray the gray that adults live in where things aren't clean and we have to make a message And he knows that sigmar isn't a god and that's okay to him right and like and that's the that's how these things get framed That's how these stories get told through supernatural entities Right, we're all just telling the story of normal human life through these supernatural entities well The thing is like in sigmages sigmar what's really I think great about it is that most of the characters The almost all the iconic characters are like in that greek mythology sort of vein Where they're like some aspect of humanity Cranked all the way up right and they even carry all those flaws up Why is archion the only one who's kind of like scrubbed of them? Yeah, sure Because he has like he's the sort of super he is the sort of super human of the world, right? But the other like I mean you could do like an anton sugar style thing with archion But then you have to remove pov from him and make him Like a tornado that just goes through your world and then that's how you get conflict And tension back to archion stories is if you you remove a pov and he becomes a adjacent figure Yeah, all I'm saying is if we can redeem vader we can redeem this guy perhaps Well, not i mean vader. Oh, yeah, sorry. I was just i'm just like that was the point of that That original trilogy and like whatever whatever this is in star wars talk But my point is if like if we can all feel like vader That was redeemed in some way we can redeem this guy too. There you go Uh, okay cool, and i'm not even talking about that expanded universe infinity story where vader Ends up joining the light side sort of lives at the end and puts on a suit of white armor Uh, like he has to say he still keeps the vader armor, but it's white um It's like it's the dumbest pretty bride That's like the dumbest best ending to a comic ever at any rate Uh So, uh, all right at any rate. Yeah, so i'm so excited about my llama kitty That guy is getting ordered in can't wait to get that thing on the table. Are you joking? I am all in on that thing you should face He's a great ally for beast of chaos. He is a great ally for beast of chaos. We talked about that. Yeah So i'm really happy for him that guy the law. He is a beast who does well with beasts. Yes, indeed Like don't get me wrong. I think he's good. Like that's not what i'm saying You just don't like it. I'm saying Yeah, it's just you cannot like it. I'm gonna run 10 of my crushers and like smack all terrain 10 times I'm just more to wound everybody around it. Uh, it's gonna be it's just gonna be it's gonna be me fighting facing off against somebody with a bunch of like, uh Lord toots and we'll all and nobody goes near terrain All right So also next news item more war cry card packs boy, we're rolling those out hard hard and heavy, aren't we? sce sacrosanct saraphon sylvaneth magikin heat knights Uh, the other nergal like the demons The blades of corn and corn demons And they actually had an article today showing all the units that were available And what was funny to me about the blades of corn Is the corgirath is one of the things you can pick Of course it is That's a big model to be in there like the blades of corn have skull reapers Wrathmongers and the corgiraths And blood that's like where are you buying that corgirath? Uh, that is the funny part to me. Yes, exactly talk about single models that still have never been released Yeah, um, I mean obviously the getting started box is the answer Like that's like that's where it exists now Is that getting started box but with the bloodscrater? Yep Uh, that's cool. I'm you just we just we just got happy about them like unlocking models from their cages, tom And you had to like just bring us down. Is this because he made fun of elves at the beginning of the show? Yes I I wanted to remind us that's recompense yet. Yeah, we're not out of the woods yet folks like Yeah, I'm gonna order a bunch of those cards. I got the whole when they did the last drop I learned my lesson like the first drop I ordered most of them, but I didn't get the whole thing This last time around I was like nope bring them all let's go the whole the whole lot Same thing Do this, uh, I'm gonna have to get one of those like magic binders for all the cards like that's what I need at this point Uh, I but all my all my magic binders are full of magic cards. So there you go And yes, somebody said ko have like 24 cards. Yeah Of course they do Yeah, because like in each like endring rigger You would have one two Three Oh my god six cards for each endring rigger, right? Wouldn't it be four each gun that guy with base gun guy with special gun one guy with special gun two And then the champion Well, but hold on the champion and then base guy, right? Yeah, sure Okay, and then the athermatic gun. Yep And then sky hook Grapple hook. Oh, yeah, there you go. They have three special guns. Um Sky hook grapple hook drill cannon okay It could be that they combined the two that are like on the same line on the war scroll Maybe maybe or just those two that that one kit would generate 12 cards Because you'd have both the sky warden version of all of those things and but the endring rigger Renderer endring rigger version of all those things. Sure. So, you know, cool Uh, those that's exciting. Yeah, I'm definitely going to pick up the ko one and that kind of stuff There's a couple others. Obviously, I'll pick up the slanesh one Uh, so yeah, cool stuff. I'm excited for more war cry cards. Bring them on. They don't stick around forever So I'm not passing on that There you go. And yes, the new article is on the site. So you can actually see the models that are available in each one like the the Uh lizard men the sarifon had their their source nights in there, which was cool. That's a neat addition I mean Disappointing they had Those models aren't going anywhere. Sure. None of them are they had the ripperdactyls the pterodons and the uh Yeah, they're sorry the ripperdip reduce and the pterodactyls in there, too Yeah, uh, which was crazy. I can't imagine those guys are going to be scary as all get out of war cry man Fast flying monster like that that does high damage. That thing's going to be a nightmare in war cry Ripper differ dues are going to be ripping dipping up some tables That'll be like a 280 point card and the the tables are smaller. So you can't run from them as much Will the bloat toad exist? Will the bloat toad be joining us? Who knows? That'll be the dice ability. Yeah. Yeah, there you go. Oh, there you go. Good call. Yep. You're right uh, okay So, uh, but exciting there. Glad to see that. I'm glad to see they basically are just like, yep The floodgates are open. Here comes everybody Uh warhammer fest tickets went on sale got my tickets for warhammer fest They finally put up the dates and tickets went on sale So I hope to see some people over there in the uk out for warhammer fest in may It's at the very beginning of may and that first week there like may 2nd and 3rd or something Yeah I'll be over there for it And related to that, uh, my new classes are up. You can find the link in the description So i'm doing i'm teaching in the uk again this year at uh dark sphere in london The week after warhammer fest. So it's going to be a thursday friday class Because friday is a holiday uh in the uk that that friday after warhammer fest is the holiday So i'll be teaching thursday friday and then saturday sunday two different class two different two day classes Dark sphere was awesome last time. I'm excited to teach there again. It was a great place for a class and uh So those are all up you can look in the description if you're in the uk I'd love to have you come to a class We're going to do a big monster class and we're going to do a character class and it's going to be a lot of fun So there you go also my june class in michigan went up So i'm also teaching up in michigan here in the states in june So you can find all of those down in the link in the description. So there you go awesome Yeah, coming to my neck of the woods Uh the midwest well, I mean i'm in your neck of the woods. I'm in the midwest. He literally Yeah, I don't the jury's still out on that Somehow I don't live in the midwest like you live in south Kentucky south, yeah, that's just the weirdest thing in the war is missouri the midwest. Yes, technically very That's where we draw the line. That's where we draw the line. Sure. Yeah, I know I know They must be the most middle of the midwest. I think is what it is is like And ohio we take them because nobody else wants them like like sure east doesn't want them And I think that's finally all of our news my goodness gracious This was a You're welcome Uh, and we got the official word from shawn clark who says we don't claim ohio Yeah, yeah, I mean he he's he's a doctor. So I think yeah, you're with him Look, here's what's funny to me Did everybody see that little thing that got shared around where it was like somebody who lives in another country Trying to label the united states There's like 17 ohio's on the map. Maybe this is ohio All I'm saying is that's how relevant ohio is. I didn't see a single michigan labeled on that map. So People know what ohio is okay. No one cares about your your little oven mitt state with its little dangly part That it that hangs off somewhere else, okay Um All right, um, okay, but do come to his classes in michigan Uh at any rate, okay, so let's talk about some uh some pick of the week. So, uh Mr. Maff what would you like to share with the audience when it comes to podcasts blogs youtube videos anything like that What would you like to share with everybody? Well, well first off I got a I got a hype chat dang I see some of them in uh in chat there. So first off hype those guys, but I want to go um I actually just want to call attention to to uh maroc wolf's youtube um, he he just finished his latest beast lord and Like he's got some phones up on twitter for that. It's One of the coolest conversions one of the greatest models I've I've some seen someone like sort of personally do Um, like kind of in real time. It's it's amazing. Um, and he was sort of like Like lamenting not putting up more youtube videos and stuff like that and I think we need to peer pressure him Uh into doing it by going and like watching some of his content Because he's got like some great videos on like on like, you know, uh Grease stuffing and sculpting some of those like harder to do things or or less approachable things I think Um, and just he's just a good guy and and I think like if he I think we can like we can audience demand him to start doing some more videos and stuff He was lamenting a little bit. He kept me a he was keeping me a ton of company through My hobby grind to pack a like just a great guy really knows his stuff And I so I just want to shout out to maroc wolf and his youtube and twitter I dig it. That's a great shout out. And yes, the man is a wizard and we do need to pressure him into doing more videos And just doing more sculpting in general. He needs to he needs to start doing that more and sharing his stuff He's got he's got such talent I'm gonna double down on that. I'm gonna double down That's it. That's your pick. So y'all really need to go and and do that fair enough We'll like we'll all we'll all go comment watch and send him things. It says more videos. Yeah more peer pressure Other videos. All right. Yeah that thing by the way, like if you like blood board or dark souls, like you can see the like influence in the model Yeah, it's fantastic. That's true Uh, so for myself, uh, it though obviously next month is adepticon as we all know time it draws ever closer Less than six weeks. Uh, we are now from adepticon And don't say that All right. Oh, yeah, it's that soon folks. Uh, as a matter of fact, it is as of today five weeks away Okay, how about that? I gotta get I gotta get working faster on like my last bits of stuff get cracking so the um The uh The important part about that is that of course We have a bunch of awesome painting competitions going on I hope to see many people submitting to resin beast there as i'm judging that one of the judges Amongst many other awesome artists for with their creature caster contest I've seen some people working on that online. I'm super excited to do that again and of course, there's also the uh golden demon us here for the first time since 2013 Which I think was the last games day in the us somebody can check me on that if i'm wrong, but i'm pretty sure it was 2013 and uh So I am Uh, very excited about golden demon returning and if you are too and you want to put something in I will direct you all to the very nice article that max the One of the the lead in the heavy metal and the heavy metal team and the lead judge for golden demon Put up I will link that down below where he shares some really nice tips that are very much the same as what he says in the Uh seminar that he gives On you know, sort of how to do well in golden demon that he gives it every like warhammer fest and other things like that Which I highly recommend doing if you can ever if you're ever at the event Max is a super open guy tells you exactly what the judges are looking for couldn't be more transparent Uh in what makes you do well in that contest So if you're somebody who's inclined go check out that article and uh Yeah, go give it a read. I thought it was great So there you go. I know I'm excited about it Okay, so let's talk about some hobby time guys Math, what are you working on buddy? Uh, I am uh putting the finishing touches on my I don't know if the camera can see this on the little like accoutrements for my bow and tithe nexus Uh, I it got finished. I'm not happy with how it was finished So I've been learning one of the hardest lessons of Aegis Sigma hobby Which is fixing your mistakes when you've gotten to a point where you need to really go all the way back So it's been a it's been a journey Uh, but yeah getting all the little like tiny details on the base Um, I wanted to kind of mirror the army and have points of visual interest that are its own But then like little things that you can pick out from from from the nexus ago Like this was built by not the army if that makes sense Yeah, sure Because like the whole point is that like, you know a society will build the nexus so that like you take They take can take their tithe there and they don't have to like suffer the bone reapers like wrath And them showing up on your door and knocking for the bones Sure So so I want to be like this is built by not the bone reapers and But like still have it. Yeah, like so it's it's been a it's been a small journey I'm making a bunch of mistakes as I go, but I'm uh, I'm painting fearlessly events. So that's the right answer, buddy Yeah, that's been a good time mistakes are just chances to learn in disguise. You know, that's all it is I've picked up more techniques in like a month of painting bone reapers Then in like the other two years of like ages sigmar So because because I mean a lot of it is is is i'm so passionate about the army That it makes me want to be better for them Yeah, yeah No, absolutely. I understand that. Yeah, when you have everything you really love You want to rise to meet it right because you want it to be Something that shows Like this is a thing. I really care about right. Yeah, 100% right right And I went through like a year of playing lon when it was like the hated thing Right, like a Nagash plus 60 gram gas reefers and even though I wasn't playing that build It was Like, you know walking up to the table and people judge you on like just your model and they see me holding Nagash And they go, uh, Nagash, you know, and they kind of like start the hate immediately Bone reapers have a little bit of the stigma going on right now Where you walk up and you like if they if they see airbrush bone daddies, they're just like, uh, this guy so So like to to to put yourself on the table, right? Especially when you when you so are thoroughly invested in loving what you love regardless of The internet regardless of the boogeyman status regardless of the jobber status, right? Like owning the army like I think is is putting yourself on a table So this is an army that I've really just a lot of my identity is going into it too. So I love it. That's great All right, tom back at his painting desk after so many weeks So, uh, I think it's been Eight weeks since I've painted there you go, but you're back now tom. What are you working on? fire slayers Yes The more things change the more they stay the same I mean like I I'm Yeah, I'm almost there like like I just put a lot of like again. Andrew like I completely agree like when I moved like when I When I was doing my ko like I really invested deep in style and technique and all that and getting the color scheme right and then Like when I added my fire slayers to them I doubled down because I wasn't going to do the heavy conversion So I knew I had to do it with like painting and freehand So like that's when I freehanded the lava pattern on 30 bulkites, right? um, and like just really leaned into it and then so when I got to my hearth guard my 40 hearth guard, I was like Okay, here we go And so now like it's not only the lava pattern and the glowing runes, but also like alternate hair Patterns and like the whole deal, you know So like it's like it's just that that evolution of investing like going deeper into into what it looks like to paint the army um And I think it's gonna come out nice, but I'm feeling it Like I'm feeling burn right now I need you to play fire slayers because people don't know fear like they're complaining about like They know fear, but they don't truly know it like would you hate more to guard more if they could pile in twice and teleport? I think you would Well, there are currently three armies that I think are out of whack and you that's you named two of them well Yeah, was I talking Did I talk to you about the FAQ how the only one I was scratching my head on was fire slayers? Yeah, yes. Yes. We that was you that was on that rank cast, right? Yeah, like I'm just like and now I'm just like it switched from scratching my head to just like sitting back in my chair with belly Like just belly laughing like Santa Claus Yes, this is still an OBR show to answer you in the comments. We will get there. I promise Right, like I'll say this like when I when the you wouldn't heat fire slayer. I thank you drop And my response was yes Great job and hold on and and somebody who works with dw was like I think we've made a mistake They're like, I don't know like this feels weird something isn't right. Tom is this excited. We've done something wrong Like you you like I want to hear your episodes you were you were talking about like Oh, I think the better way to run it is to move away from the blob move away from the blob run And it's just like the FAQ taught people to play the army the right way. It's it's perfect. It's great. I love it Fantastic Like let me push back and like the FAQ got rid of the blob Is the blob was a 30 block He's saying and taught them how to play correctly. Yes. Yeah, yeah Yeah, and like and it made playing correctly better like more advantage rewarded you for being the better list already Yeah, I know it's great. It's like when I drink white russians. Like I'm just rewarding myself for being an alcoholic I'm like, this is so good like Fire slayers are the white russians of armies right now Uh, yeah So I mean Yeah, so I'm doing fire slayers. Good. I'm glad you're back at the desk painting. Tom. We're all excited about that for myself I finished up my ironclad this week, which I was very excited about Obviously that was a big uh conversion project that took a while So that's that the bad girl is over on the shelf now and uh City what's that? It's a monstrosity. It is huge Like it's hard for me to explain how big that thing is but yes, it's It's big. It's real big It's hard because I couldn't capture the photos like I tried to put it in there with a keeper of secrets In one of the photos so you could see that it just like towers over her like she's this tiny insignificant things You could those I don't know Vince basically created the the terrain piece we wanted to make The landing ship for KO the edge of the board Mr. The he modeled the gi joe aircraft carrier. It's basically what he did Well, here's what's funny about so I have like an old school gyro bomber Like not the copter the actual bomber sitting on my desk like the actual model because somebody A friend had given me one and said if you want to use this thing for parts go ahead I can put that gyro bomber on the deck on the deck I could land multiple of them on the deck So there you go Yeah So now at any rate, I'm working on gone back to work on slaves and I'm working on my lord My chaos lord on on karkadrak kakadrak. Whatever his name is this guy Kakarot. Yeah, exactly for my for my crimson cabal So very I'm excited about this dude. I love this model. This guy was great a lot of fun to paint a lot of fun to to uh Sort of put together like this is honestly the other thing I hate about the easy to build ones is it's very hard to do sub assemblies with them Because they're so weirdly jointed Yep So you can't really sub assemble them, but that being said they do go together Really easy and really cleanly Um, they did a good job like as they've went they've done a good job of hiding seams Yeah, absolutely. Like I was shocked by how well this this all goes together It's it's really really well hidden seam. So he's been a lot of fun. Uh, he's almost done I've just got his metals and stuff to do and then his uh his weapons. So And he'll be wrapped up pretty here in the next couple days So gentlemen Let's talk about some bone daddies Uh, so bueno We've seen some results Lov in response to the show was nice enough to give a little update. Hopefully everybody saw that Latest stats after this weekend puts obr at 9% of the tournament meta. So pretty significant, right? That's a big That's a big chunk. That was like heyday of lo and numbers are around 9% and I have very historically large percentage. Yes Well on a 60 win rate Uh, and the highest event wins Uh, so the just the just raw number of event wins is held by them Uh, ironically he says the disciples of zinx representation has fallen off. Could be some players self-comping. I don't disagree with that. Like I think it's so uh I think there's one of those situations where it just feels not great. And so I think a lot of people have self-compted Uh, and as pointed out, which is like a real bad matchup for them. So the more people self-comping zinx the better for obr Uh, yeah, so there you go. That was kind of some some some stats. He gave us Which I thought was helpful. Yeah, right. Thanks. Oh, yeah. Thank you, sir Doing the lord's work as always. I was just about to say that Doing the lord's work. Yeah Yeah, yes So that was just a nice little nice little thing that uh that lv tweeted out to me, which I very much appreciated uh, okay So What are we talking about here guys? Let's ask the let's ask the breaking question. Let's just start here Okay are the bone daddies Out of line or bent or whatever in some way are they too good? As they currently exist No Okay, if no, why if yes, why it's this isn't this isn't uh, this isn't the kind of show tom where you just give a One-word answer you may have you may have seen the show before in the hundreds of episodes. We've done I um Go ahead. No, no, I like I don't think they're I don't think they're Use your euphemism bent leading leading broken or bent leaning broken. I don't think they're in that Yeah, I think Top like I think they're they're top of eight here might even be Asked here, but I think to answer the obr question. We need to kind of like look at the meta Right as it as it stands and if we Believe that we're moving towards this living meta the the rock paper scissors meta, right? Which which is a sort of natural state. I think games had towards once they get robust enough One calendar year ago obr would be though just Disgusting right sure, but like The thing is we we've had 12 like Let me let me pause you What it though hold on hold on what it though? I I think yes because if we were still in the D. Okay would give them a run for their money. Uh, you know, just We had bodies if if we were in the all melee no shooting Metta they would be a force right up there at the top Okay, right, right. I like I think that doc would really be pushing them hard because they're like Rerollable save doesn't turn on in the hero phase when the when uh when doc can do their pylons. Yeah I didn't say that unbeatable. I said, I think they'd be a stronger force. So I agree with that Like I think that's where you'd see them at like in s tier firmly though, right like right now I think they're the top of a tier and I'd even say s tier 60 win rate is about where we Decided is the the tolerant zone for a great army, right? Like great. I think In like In like a But is that 60 percent? I want to push on what you just said though. Is that 60 percent? Like with being 10 of the meta that means there's a lot of bad players playing that army, right? Because the army should still have retaining that high of a percentage, right? That's where I would push back on that on that data fair enough fair enough I mean and they lose to the mirror, right? Like because you're gonna you're gonna play the mirror a lot So you're you're losing the mirror the thing is is this isn't an unbeatable army It's it's it's an army that plays the game fundamentally the same as all all armies in age of sigmar We spend a lot of time talking about age of sigmar a lot more than playing You might have like the the field at a tournament that might be the most games they play in a year for like the average person at the tournament Right. These aren't like grinders Not usually we're moving towards like a lot more like consistent tournament play But like they remind me a lot of idk In that they're a I think they're a litmus test army They and beyond that they're they're an army that teaches you to play the game of age of sigmar better The way idk and gav bomb said Like we knew what chaff was as a meta, right? We understood what chaff was but there's a difference between going I know what chaff is and knowing the exact range you need to put your chaff screens down to not get killed by the alpha And so for like one whole year gav bomb and alpha armies were just the most npe ever And the the turnip was four like two months or three months, but five five five. I'm hyperbole Feel free to ramean constantly um No, but like that's the thing is like that was every now and then there's like an army comes along in Anything competitively or the character or whatever you're talking about that forces you to reassess how you play the game and think about the game I think obr is one of those armies that forces you to think about Playing deployments better and playing objectives better Because like it's an army that absolutely punishes you for pushing your model straight across the battlefield and like Like if you play them straight up you're going to lose because they have basically taken all of the bars Slid them down to like five and then just pumped up the melee grinder They are a melee grinder army. They very much win in almost any attrition battle any other any any attrition This is an attrition army And I think if we talk about like the rock paper scissors the way I was kind of Conceptualizing it before I came into this episode because I knew I wanted to talk about it Is like our rock paper scissors might be and this is just for argument's sake might come down to shooting And shooting can mean magic like if you're range we'll say range. I understand what you mean Yes, we can take style shooting into account where it's heavily where there's plenty of normal shooting But it's also backed up by magical shooting. Yes, right. Yeah, so it ranged attrition alpha Okay, and so alpha tends good alpha, right tends to be a great equalizer for shooting armies. Sure like IDK are we're still just like holding back skaven even when skaven was disgusting, right? You deploy half your army off the ground you jump into stuff attrition is going to beat alpha And then in turn like the you know the sort of final piece of the puzzle. Yeah, I don't I don't hate your triangle That's a nice trying right and I think this is kind of where I've settled the triangle and now some armies are mushroom But uh But like that's because you know, we play three-dimensional game Battle plans are the great equalizer battle plans advice are the great equalizer The thing is is I think petrofex elite because that's what everyone has is complaining about Sure, of course is forcing you to reassess how you play the objectives game So let me say this real quick here We're to say obr this whole time like when I'm asking this question. I phrased it as is obr bent, right? But realistically we might as well be just talking about petrofex elite because for all Anything else, right? That's just that is what is played It is simply the choice period Like I'm not saying every table game ever where where bone daddy's fifth table is petrofex elite I know there are plenty people Like what what's going 60% and it's 10% of the matter is his petrofex, right? When you look in in sort of a weekend and you see that there are 37 Uh obr games playing or 37 obr armies at major tournaments and 36 to 37 of them are Petrofex elite that that's telling right so for the purposes of this conversation Like we'll talk a little bit later about the the sub factions Like we'll talk about mortis praetorians and null myriad and stuff and and you know other other things there because I think there Is interesting elements to explore there I think what's going to happen is a lot of obr players are like are leaning on petrofex elite right now Yes, like they're heavily leaning on it for like an extra win against an inexperienced player at a tournament I think those we were like this is an art when I look at the like the rest of the matter It's just really good. It's really good, but I can build you a mortis praetorians list that you go. Yep The thing is mortis praetorians You have to build a list with it in mind Like you have to go I'm taking these pieces to make to maximize this army with petrofex elite. You just go Seems good throw it in right like doesn't matter. You don't you don't really have to think about the list You just go this stuff goes in here now And I mean as lv just said in tournaments out of a 9 faction representation Which I think is like either the highest or second highest right now in the matter Right, right and it's 100 new army It's a 100 new army in a largely like thin grand alliance death We've been one of the thinnest grand alliances. Yes, even considering destruction. Sorry destruction bros like People are gonna play that army people are gonna play that army. I'm saying that's a huge representation for a single chamber But this is I it's a four It's I look at it in a robust meta with answers where people are like learning the lesson As a form one army that struggles to go five and oh once the the pieces the chips kind of fall like a scaven army played well Is an auto loss waiting to happen for that army? Like it you you don't have the keep back units to screen the gnaw holes. You don't you don't Do anything Unfair one of the the saving graces to where people ultimately were like, I'm fine with the ok Inevitably fine with the ok right once we saw oh scaven slanash You know flesh of your courts. We're like, oh, this is just where the game's at now We're at a new bar Once we saw that we went, okay D. Okay, whatever because like d. Okay. Was at least playing you fair, right? It's just bodies and grinders trying to fight you um Like they're much faster than than uh than petrofex elite because that's what we're talking about Maybe we'll see like we'll get there when we talk about lists But yeah, okay, so fair enough you're I get it. Those are all good reasons I don't super disagree with any of them tom anything you want to add to the no, they're not Bent Out of balance, whatever like I'm trying by the way folks I'm trying to keep my term unloaded here because the the nature of internet discussion around this Tends to be like Vitriolic and and go to extremes Yeah, right Where everybody says this thing is the worst or this thing is the best and it's just like there's no nuance So what I when the reason I'm liking the word out of bounds is because it's not a very loaded term Yeah, I mean so what I'll say is this uh the the army had like The way the army is designed the floor Of minimum play is raised way up. Yes. Okay So like you can be a bad player and do very well with that army, right But the army itself at the highest end does not have all the tools They don't and actually like that mobility thing is in bodies thing at the end of the day is actually kind of a big deal Like it's kind of really a big deal about holding those objectives in the back and all that stuff Like all that becomes a real issue And so in in light of that I would say um You know the more I think about it like I think that it is a it is the top of what I would want to see in the meta Uh and it becomes what we would call like a gatekeeper army Because what that means is that you need to be able like it's one of those things that like you need to be prepared to face it In a major event and beat it. Sure. Oh, it's definitely a gatekeeper at this point. Yes Yeah, it has ushered in the high armor gatekeeper Right like it it is profuse And it's easy to play like and what I mean I'm gonna say easy like Yeah, like it's it's a it's a non mechanically like Complex army, right? Um, but I it also has some major weaknesses against like key armies Key armies in the meta as well Um, not only something like zeech, but I would also argue even fire slayers It's like even fire slayers Fire slayers is a bad matchup for obr Like if the fire slayer player knows what they're doing it is a bad bad matchup for the obr Yes, the third and the other out of bounds armies. Yeah, so all here's my so I'm going to take the opposite position to this Um, do you think it's broke? No, because again, I didn't want to say the word broken. Okay. Sure. I think it is out of bounds But let me see if I can nuance that position. I don't think it's hugely out of bounds Okay uh So my point here Is this is a tough case? Because what we've got here is an army that's kissing the top of you're right like what we've all said meff is that Uh, you know what we're willing to tolerate is this 40 to 60 percent, right? The goal is the same time we have this interesting situation where we've got Such a huge representation. It's still maintaining that number. That should be alarming to us All right And at a deeper level I'm not just like those numbers are all very useful and interesting Uh Like they're good. Those are useful stats because they point us toward problems But they're the beginning of the discussion not the end and ultimately my argument would be something like this The fact that they are so cookie cutter pick up and go and can be such a brutal experience that directly crushes all but like They are the exact crush counter to the way Many players in this game tend to play not just new but like new to moderate players tend to play and like you're right It's a fair point to say they challenge you to play better. I don't disagree with that Right like that that is true. They certainly do. Okay Okay But in my estimation There the fact that they're that pull the trigger go Is problematic for the same reasons Uh That I thought fec was problematic and needed addressing Because gristle gore fec was point Was point click shoot win Right And you can do a lot of point Click shoot win with obr against a lot of the match and ultimately what happens the top tables That's the problem. We say like well, this army has weaknesses or it's not unbeatable. Well, of course, that's true for everything This is a os as you said scenarios are a great equalizer You know, like there's just too many random elements literally nothing in this game is unbeatable, right? Even zinge, which I consider highly offensive still Okay, and a worst case of bent trending broken Okay Is Is like even that still gets beat quite regularly Right because that's not what the bar is the bar to me is one Is it overtly powerful in too many matchups? Yes, two It does it have too easy of a strategy to put together to win And is it is it especially punishing against new to moderate skill players? Yes, by the way piloted by other new to moderate skill players I'm not talking about like the skill differential here where you've got a master playing somebody who's a medium skill That person should win almost regardless of what army they're piloting, right? I'm talking like two people of equal skill level in the new to moderate area One of them takes their their basically autopilot Corn ogre iron jaws, whatever some pick somebody in that area of the meta you like, okay? Army and one takes their autopilot obr army who wins that matchup seven out of ten times Right It's the obr and So to me and and this is stemming from one systematic point Petrofex is too good It's that easy Because most of what this army is doing I really like and I like it for the same reason. I think you like it I like them having high armor Right. I actually think that's cool. I think that's a good gatekeeper in the meta I think high armor something we were like reminding reminding you that True high armor armies other thing. I'm not redundant save Garbage just somebody who's got high armor. Yeah, great. I I don't mind high armor in the meta. I think that's fantastic That's perfectly fun right um My problem is and always will be And and you and I I think talked about this when we talked about this Yeah, the run when too many when you take a unit That's too much of an anvil and you put it together with too much of a hammer in a in a package That's too easy to take Right where I didn't have to stretch. I didn't have to sacrifice OBR a point costed pretty correctly But it's not like you're yes, you could get more stuff But I think their points like I'm saying they could be cheaper and you could get more and blah blah blah They could be more expensive and you could get less But to me they feel like they're actually about in the right place Point-wise I don't know that I would recommend much points adjustments I like the elite undead and I like that you have like three distinct undead styles Like you fact fact is the monster mash undead, right? That's where they settle in Um, like OBR settled in as elite undead and you you have your like sort of like horde undead I think is where like LOG LON etc fallen 100 and I think that I think that's cool and and real quick just because there's a more busted army Like fire slayers and and and zinch doesn't mean OBR is like Is less of a problem, you know, because what you're getting at Yes The fact that there's a serial killer that killed 20 people when you've only got 12 bodies In and it buried in a national park doesn't make you not a serial killer my Main point is like I don't think OBR are affinity to to to really like gloss over some people. I definitely agree with that Yeah, I think there can thresh Sure, like as in like tempo as a as a ideal of of gameplay and magic the gathering Was a concept a lot of really skilled players had an understanding of but like Moderate to beginner players had no idea. I simply do you know what? I think this may be a more apt comparison Well, where was original sly? Okay, okay You remember original sly when it came out, you know, you know what I mean by sly, right? Just the standard curve out, you know, red red things one two One two three two twos Two twos win the game, right? That was your this is your efficiency curve, right? Like right, yeah And obviously it's a very different example because that was like the hyper offensive army compared to defensive OBR But my point is sly was one a very cheap easy deck to build It's time when it came out It was very easy to deploy like it had almost like an autoplay strategy You like what you played on any given turn was Dead drop obvious, right? It was like I do this then I do this then I do this then I do this then I win Yeah, right. I mean nobody was playing with wastelands before Before tan thresh and like mongooses were winning Yes, and it absolutely punished new to moderate players that didn't understand how to respond to that kind of extreme tempo Right, right, and I yes And the other thing it does is it it capitalizes off of you making a misplay if you have no idea what's going on already Yeah, like the minute you're off balance in in the tempo matchup or even like the sly They got you and and I think that's where obr is at but the thing is is like we learned like MTG like the average MTG base all came up and rose to the occasion there And I have faith that ages sigmar players will raise Will like will rise to that level where they're they're going to go What we are doing to beat this army that for all intents and purposes is playing you straight up They're pushing their models straight toward due they're they're winning with armor Which spoiler mortals and high rend beat them well, and then they they do read themselves talk about alternative build I think fine, but sure. Yeah. Yeah This standard game however I build no Yeah, like that's the thing is like at his first face value petrified elite is On on one hand the other side of this is it's a it's a user friendly army for new players, too It teaches them the basics of the game in a way that storm cast internals do not sure like You know like for like a poster boy army like storm cast internals and corn are like The worst armies to try to pick up as a beginner like bone reapers if you sit at that floor you're going to have competitive solid games at the like this sort of next step i4c coming in the very near future Where people have figured out not just like oh, yeah play objectives play objectives, but how to play objectives Like every time I go ahead. Yeah, here's my honest answer This is the biggest problem with the simplest fix okay In my estimation Most of the times that these problems come about they're actually like multi sort of there's multiple contributory factors and Doing a fix is kind of tricky Right, like when you looked at slanesh it was kind of a tough thing to unpack exactly how to fix it, right? There was lots of potential solutions How much do we play with locus? How much do we play with the depravity, right? How much does the double pylon matter? Duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, right? There's all these kind of different things with slanesh that made it good And so the question was how do you if you if we if we screw with all those different dials and get one a little Too wrong the army is just going to collapse immediately, right? Whereas here the answer is petrofex. We know it is because everybody takes petrofex Right and when it's that much of a choice it just tells you we're out of bounds like immediately That's a self-evident choice that it's out of bounds okay It's just like it becomes the the the people have spoken and said when I want power 90 percent of a nine percent meta has taken this one thing And done incredibly well with it too well Okay, so the answer is jettison the rent Like that command ability needs to go It's just the wrong one I don't know what the command ability is that replaces it Something way weaker Something that's not offensive Okay, because it's only as good as your opponents though like it's you know like it only goes as far as Uh adding rend is one of the most brutal things you can do in the game most of the time And right now as they stand they're not really afraid of ghosts and stuff like that that isn't random. No, right Like I I pity the poor spirits they go against most OVR forces so Like my point is though that would be the light touch I would do and to some people that might sound like not a light touch I think that's being way lighter touch Right. I'm not suggesting to get rid of the plus one armor save across the board Okay, which is the Most powerful sub allegiance ability They have printed The only thing that comes close Is in zeech is that everybody gets neg one rend effectively even that's somewhat cut to only part of the army Right because it's only three different units by effectively I know there's a little more than that in the weird hero chariots and stuff, but it's effectively three units And the you can't retreat from this But that's That stops you from playing the game Like we don't win a just sigmar by dealing damage at the end of the day Like which which is why like arguments that hinge on on and are a unit being too defensive or a unit being too too damaging Is I feel a flawed argument tons of stuff deals infinite damage tons of stuff takes infinite damage like it Like as long as here's my argument though I get what you're saying you're saying but here's the problem with your argument You're saying in tournament scenario games played well damage doesn't win agreed Okay, top level players don't lose games because of damage Right You know what I mean? They play around that they know how to contain Avoid they know how to pick those things Whenever whatever target priority is really refined like that's not what wins most games Like 90 percent of the games of this of age of sigmar they're played. Oh, they're decided on damage Because people push their armies forward and go have fights Over objectives because if I just told when I watch other people in my group play They're like well, we're gonna have a punch up because that's how we came to play That's why we decided to play this game And in your lgsc and just don't take petrifacts then like you can do that But the the army has some easily exploitable flaws and I would say keep the rent by the way I think this is an elegant solution. I'm saying The hate is unfounded Like if you if you turn off your brain because you you just hate an army so much You're so fervently every statistic you read goes to your point of why I should hate it rather than why I think it's a good thing Yada yada yada. You're already in that fight or flight mode. Your reason has turned off You're gonna stop solving the problem. This army had like I played and I go Oh, wow, I know how to beat my army with my own piece of chaos Supposedly one of the worst games armies in the entire game Like I'm like, I know exactly how it'll be my own army Like I'm like, yeah, I can do infinite damage to ungore raiders. Like congratulations. Sure. Like, you know, like like I just The the problem is solvable and right here james s in in chat here says your idea of player base rising is flawed Because your average mtg player can play 10 games in the time your average aos player can play one This is true. This is a very big advantage of of of magic and any grinder game street fighter It doesn't matter the player base of aos will leave before they learn and I think that's because it the community When I say the community can be better. I mean rather than like like just Given the person the hard l at the lgs or going on the internet and complaining about About how obi is busted. There's nothing anyone could do about it. We just need to wait for nerfs Is is counterproductive to the community is counterproductive to teaching people to learn You you need to you need to teach people to learn and part of that is like, you know Not holding back but not like crushing them every game They're like if they're just pushing models straightforward and they lose the game Then you sit there and you talk about like game moves Well, you know if you had to attack this flank here on on the thin side every time i'm losing a game with obr It's because someone's attacking at the inside of my models I don't get a double pile. So I get what you mean But let me say this one that assumes you know that And I've already said you're a good player who's thought a lot about this Which you are not representative of the player base But you and I can help teach them with our awesome cloud right now What's an easier solution? Yeah Like we've got a problem here that we we both like we both admit this is a challenge But let's not even use any problem. Let's yes. I want you to come back in tom But let me just say this real quick We have we both admit there is a challenge Fair fair statement that the the army represents a challenge I think it's more significant. You you think it's less, but we both agree it's a challenge It's a challenge and I think it's the art like don't think I'm not saying the army's great. Sure. The army is great I love the army. It's awesome. So there's two ways we can solve this challenge option one We trust the entire player base including brand new players who don't have the experience of the 22 forces In this game, right till all simultaneously get better Or two We change one sub allegiance ability Which one is the easier solution? I'm gonna go for the occum's razor here. So so easiest solution doesn't doesn't mean best solution No, you're right. It doesn't always like but in this case, I would argue it certainly is like Like I just I expect better and the thing is I think the player base has gotten smarter every year Age of Sigmar has been out has gotten better at playing games. They got like the the rage against eels like Like people forget at the beginning of their stats that they had top three finishes in basically every major coming out the gates Like these new armies that are pub stompers that teach you to rethink how you play the game We've seen them before even slanash like I hated the band slash thing shelf slannesh was probably That was the more mature that was the ready one of those Adjusted Yes That's somewhat adjusted and pectur fex elite will get adjusted too So it's like it's it's like beating this dead horse of like this is a problem. This is a problem Who do you think hasn't heard you yet? So like now that you you have you have won the army is going to be changed one way or another Like how about we learn the lesson that they're teaching us to like Like like like the methodology of throwing your child in a pool to teach them to teach them to swing I get it. That's obviously the wrong thing to do But you're not just going to see some of those youtube videos Babies float and they keep like We haven't let tom talk for a while. Yeah, all right. Yeah, please tom Okay Let me just say let me let me let me throw out a hypothetical like to for you to push back against I'm not saying that this is the right solution But here's another possible solution You've attacked the rent vents. Sure okay What if we attack the defenses and I know You love them being a high army like high armor army. That's fine. Great I'm okay with that I'm open to other solutions because it could also be that instead of the just generic army ability is plus one to save That could replace the command ability and the command ability could be that they turn on Uh a plus one to save and now they've got to burn an rdp on it right Maybe maybe um my suggestion was what if it was something like And I know that you're going to hate on this because I you hate after saves But they have a six up after save right they have a six up after save And it can't be argument. It can't be augmented no matter what the liars on the internet say It's a six up after save I can get a five up mortal wound save to a single unit with a spell. Of course. So like I've seen prominent figures Lying about the army. They're they're twos and twos twos and twos the wound So then these new players who don't know any better go around and parrot that that's why obr is busted Like identify the real problems here, which is the rend and then now what you're the point you're making Okay, so what if the universal plus one save was just a universal move the after save down to five plus Oh, so like they're they're just so that's it Yeah, so rather than them everybody going from a four to a three up You know, not gosh going to a two up. What if the after save just went from a six to a five Sure, there was somebody else who suggested like ignoring neg one rend So they basically have a version of the lizard man ability, right? There could be all sorts of different takes on this frankly, right? Obviously Yeah, yeah My point is this we can have a I I don't even want to necessarily like there are probably Five decent solutions to how to fix petrifyx But the answer is unless petrifyx is changed There is no reason right now That anyone's going to take The rest of them the rest of the things and it will continue to be the nine out of ten choice Right, yeah, I would agree with them. Yeah, I mean, it's it's the Hagnar. It's Hagnar It's Hagnar, but worse because my argument would be if we if we changed petrifyx Let's say we like let's say petrifyx just tomorrow. Let's just say we ruin petrifyx Okay, like for funsies. Let's just ruin petrifyx. Yeah, it's it's ruined. I'm playing mortis praetorians already Exactly, you know, like there are I believe there are still perfectly viable choices, right? I'm not sure doc doesn't like collapse in a big way Not all the way. It doesn't feel like a 30% army doc has a lot of innate strengths It's it's this weird house of cards that has to be built in a very specific way and that specific way is Generically Hagnar. There are some exceptions But for the most part the other Uh, the other houses in there the other chambers the other murder cults Whatever are all much more fiddly and difficult and don't have just like the raw power of Hagnar, right? Right, right. So like I think you see this massive drop in doc Efficacy if you if you kill Hagnar, I'm not sure you see such a huge thing if you if you Uh, if you kill out petrifyx completely like if we just erased it if we replaced all of it with Ibsum lorem And you were forced to take something else. I'm not sure the army still doesn't have perfectly viable strong upper fat middle choices Right, right Because I do think that the fundaments of the army are strong Right Yeah, I would agree with that this this right here rend Getting far more command points every army than every other army combined So like the thing about rdp is I do think it's very well balanced within the full context of the game Like you get a bunch more command points than anybody else chair. Cool. Whatever Every ability in the army takes them except for the plus one thing like everything you do takes takes this There are armies out there that give you their steroids just for existing like exploding sixes or double pylons or Smashing and bashing or like any number of positional buffs that just you get auras Like everything that the army does mr. Mr. Warner Is hinged on are far more command abilities than anybody else And by the way, we can't use the generic command abilities. You you will never Miss re-rolling charges more than than playing this army And being able to use the hish command ability to double activate an army that has is devoid of activation warps Yeah, I I legitimately don't have a problem with rdp I see this take all the time and it just Here's the thing we could the discussion around rdp Could be like maybe it needs to be a little lighter Like maybe it needs to come down by an average of one to two So there's a little more pressure on its usage So you have to be slightly more precious about it Like that could be a discussion to have right that the average army is maybe slightly too high And I mean slightly like literally one to two Okay So so different armies have different criteria for their abilities to work warner you might say This army's criteria is to build a list with enough rdp in mind to turn on all your steroids because they're all hinged to rdp And the the massive trade-off between list building like achievements Picking the correct generals having the right amount of units things like that taking catacoros He's like an auto-include for that reason like things like that And then the trade-off is you don't get the generic command abilities that are quite frankly awesome crutches Yeah, other armies don't have a billion command points But when you can re-roll a charge in the game is so often determined on positioning It feels like the best command point you've ever spent or when you're gonna want to run six Yeah, sure So I don't want to get too deep into the like we we've we've beat this horse enough Okay, it is this horse has officially become a deathrider I'm beating so Okay We've harvested its bones. We've rebuilt it into a stolly ox stolly ark lord All right, so but I do I want to talk about some other stuff with opr all right because I We we've laid our opinions bare and we will now let it to the audience to decide um My only closing little thought on this is to say I think that any problems in army building out of balance For the most part When we look at where gw has challenges in the books It is and still continues to be relegated to the chambers To the sub allegiances Like that's where these problems tend to live Right, we see it over and over and over and over again Hagnar and gristle gore and and and and there are some exceptions slanesh was one, right? But for the most part so many of these have been sub allegiances. Okay So let's talk about some other stuff that I want to get on to Sure Mr. Maff did you see uh The list from kan kan that was up in the top three Yeah So do we want to let's talk about that list so that was Yes, and and this right here is one of the like best Anec notes that that sort of talks about that's a challenge of petrifex So this rv was something like off the top of my head since I have this in front of me It was uh negash. I believe is how we say that word around these parts Yeah, yeah, it was uh negash and all of the murder ponies which was the The second list I built after I built my my cavillos lance balistari list Right the first I built that the second list I built and I was like Snickering about it because I sent hey, well a tweet and I said Our a message and I said I just made I just made bone reapers as beast claw raiders It was just like the the smallest amount of models I could fit into the army And um and I was like snickering and I was laughing and I'm like man That'll be a cute list to build later on this year. Well after I get my like core list built Um and like, you know, I shelved the idea and then I watch it win Like take second Uh at the largest age of sigmar singles event in the world and I go I was just joking about it So this list fascinated me because obviously it's negash a ton of ponies I think it was 25 death writers then sounds about right and then one of the Two fives in the battalion with negash. Yeah, and then like probably one of the other casters. I think I think you I the way I had it built is you can get you get a lance and negash and like that's about it And I think you can get the you can get the shrieker in yeah, so I don't remember if you had one of the little secondary casters or not But in any case he might he might have a shaper, but I don't think so I you I negash negash is he's like it's a two leader list. Yep So what was fascinating to me about the list was you have A horsey horse list, right the lesion all the ponies and all this and and negash and You look at that and on the surface you would go if I if you knew nothing if I just explained to you Kind of the basics right that there are these things called stolly ark lords Right And it's that's the that's what you take if you want to run ponies No, this guy was petrifex and it was brutal and what Go ahead and what was what I loved about the list is how orthogonal it played to how you would expect it to play Okay Because he used in my opinion the best spell in the book okay And the best spell in the book being The protection of of negash Yeah, so so the spell where negash is like I feel like I die a little too much He's like I know I will make a spell to protect Myself what am I going to call it protection? From the no, I'm not from negash protection To nega protection Of negash got it and even he cast it on himself. It's it's great So he can't which so I'll just refresh everybody's memory on this spell because I don't know how much we talked about her If you're not familiar with the army Protection of negash has a casting value of six If you successfully cast will a dice each time a wound or mortal wound is allocated to the caster Only five plus that wound or mortal wound is negated if any wounds or mortal wounds are allocated to the caster and not negated Uh and the caster is not slain remove them from the battlefield after all the wounds or mortal wounds have been allocated Then set them up anywhere on the battlefield more than nine inches away From any enemy units after setting up the model. This spell is unbound So effectively it sort of protects you, right? It gives you a five up after save for some limited amount of time until you get kind of attacked, right? And then it's going to protect you for the duration of that series of attacks and then allow you to bounce in some way Reposition reposition. Yes, you can pick up and set down Uh the opponents who have beaten my petrogash list Have not attacked a gosh Like um, like they they discovered like the like the savvy players realize that giving me a reposition on the gosh Is way too way too strong for me like I want you to hit me Right, so like my new petrogash list actually does take pendulum. I'm tired of people not shooting it I want like my new petrogash list actually takes pendulum after uh after wapaka. I'm like Man, if I could just have teleported the gosh this game I don't like want it. Yeah, and so like I like I joke I think a lot of people were joking about the pendulum the gosh thing Um, no, no, no, I'm fucking doing it now I'm tired of not being able to like Again, like a lot of my opponents just realize like just don't fight the the business and like out position me And then like take their good units that do kill 20 and 30 blocks of more tech guard or tie them up You know and then just outscore me on the table. I'm like and the gosh could just get over there He would be killing everything because he's a god of death. Um, yeah, so like I love the spell. It's great. Um I I spoke with the player of the list. Uh, josh was named name. Uh, he actually Uh knew they were going to be in gyrann and that's why he selected that army Sure, like why he built that way my great problem with Steliarch lords is the cavalos lance Battalion because it gives you half of what Steliarch lords does. Yeah, absolutely And so this is more to the like whole like petrifex people just build petrifex Yeah, because you take the battalion and then you do half what Steliarch lords do anyway, right? So Steliarch lords seems to be the answer when people get good at beating obr Hashtag get good. Um And like and then the obr players quit leaning on their crotch of plus one save and plus one rend And realize wait a second. We need mobility and they're they're going to migrate over the Steliarch lords One of the things that are stopping obr players from learning that lesson is the is the cavalos lance Uh, is look is the cavalos lance. I I yes, I agree And what was fascinating to me about watching that list work is the brutal explosive speed it had Right because with all of that cavalry like I watched him play a zinch player in one of the last rounds And he rolled over him I mean he rolled over him. It was roll tide Okay Because he because why I say it's orthogonal to the normal performance is because oftentimes negash when you see him play traditionally He would like kind of sit in the back of armies and just he's out there and his his troops are moving forward And gumming up the works and stuff and he's just kind of back there casting and things like that Right and just being that kind of dude Whereas in this list he becomes this with protection on he becomes this bully Right. He just you just push him forward Like get him out there And put your opponents into this position where they suddenly have to deal with this the god of death Who's coming for them hard? While all your ponies you lean into him He just leaves he just he can leave or get behind you or he'll reposition on your army in a way You didn't want him to do right And meanwhile the horsies are so fast because you're just you're just burning off all your rdp to basically give them all three Movement and get them out to where they want and they're just like claiming and holding every objective And you don't have to the funny thing is with them is that you don't actually have to spend the Like the rdp every time they fight to give them the re-roll the re-roll saves Because negash just turns on his re-roll ones Right and they're already three up re-roll ones. So they're almost as hard as more tech Um, yeah, you can you can choose whether or not you want to use that. Yes, exactly Well, yeah, I mean, but it's just on because you're it's often Yeah, I'm saying you can choose whether or not you think it's going to be a situation where you need to account for like if you're in Some kind of rend, you know, if you're in a fight without rend, you just okay. Cool. Never mind I'll just rely on the negash thing. Right. Yes, right. Well, no You don't have more tech guard because their their ability that they turn on is their charge mortal wound ability It's not the it's not the re-roll all saves. Yeah, and so the is that they don't need the re-roll all saves as the more tech Um that they can spend that rdp on running and on doing mortal wounds when they hit. Yeah, I understand your point now Sorry, I missed your point Yeah, yes, you're exactly right It was it was shocking to me how fast and effective it was because the ponies had spread out They'd go clean up and meanwhile negash is just like he's just getting shoved down the throat of the enemy army Right, and he just keeps like Because he's playing himself in positions where he keeps being able to do that. Yeah, I had a ko player Not realize he should stop shooting at negash And so it was just like every turn I put in the most optimal position to assault you Like I would blink from one side of the table one side of his forces It was like a bad cartoon like scooby-doo So they're just like we're like the gang just runs one way and then the monster comes And then they run the other way It was like that like except negash was like both the gang and the monster Because like I'm trying to get away from his his threat units that can actually kill me The rent to shooting all that stuff and then like over here We actually math hey, hey, won't I math it out even petra gash? It is a green amount. It is a green percentage chance That a fully beefed up murder horn will kill negash off the charge So it's best for you to just teleport in the charge phase Like hope that the stone lord gets a uh gets a mortal wound through your four up your four up six up And then a four up six up five up and then teleport right because like you don't want to get locked in with that Boulderhead stone horn. That's funny. So yeah, it was just a fascinating take on the list to me Um, I loved it. I love the way it played because it was so Um, it was so fast and it didn't have to play in the just sort of move to the middle Like more tech have more speed than people account for being a sort of base Seven move unit effectively right because in general if you need to move them You'll spend the rdp to move them right like if that's what you're needing to do you will do it Spoiler you need to do it most of the time And so like they're faster than people expect but the ponies with that go They go fast Well and then retreat and charge is like what they're getting right and that that is One of the best abilities in the game of age of sigmar if if ponies could fly They would just be such the clear cut best unit in that book, but they they can't so so they're just like the second best They're just pretty good. They're just pretty good instead of like the best my my fear with all this talk is that is that OBR Are going to get hit in the wrong way to fix them because I see a lot of people Misidentifying the problems with the army Okay, and and like there again An army that has its flaws and Are beatable what's cool about the pony list is you go from like an attrition style army to a beatdown army You begin dictating where the fights happen. Yes, absolutely Which is why that's accounting for a fly now now you're also doubly investing in one of the flaws Which is you are yet fewer models still it doesn't matter if your opponent doesn't have anything alive But if they don't have anything alive right and so like I mean again, it's just you're you have to Ah, yeah It's it's a harder army if you get caught flatfooted Certainly like more tech don't care at all for the most part for in 90 Let's call it 9% of cases more tech don't care about getting caught flatfooted Right, like they're perfectly happy to take a charge like they come here They play like 40 like 40 blocks of skeletons used to sure for me Like the the the thing I love about us here at Bone Reapers is also something people hate about it But like it plays like my old Nagash plus 100 army Or it's like just Nagash and 100 skeletons was my old army I love that army and I just get to play that again except like in the more in a game that has eight objective battle plans and has you know, uh Because like I am three inches faster than my normal skeletons, right? Like I I get to do that except I don't have to log 100 models to a tournament now It's just 50 now or 25 like fair. I love that about the army It's like they they they were really mindful and they and they tightened up Uh, what a lot of the death things are With kind of removing some of the just the things that are such glaring weaknesses in an army as to where they become unplayable which is like mono death star style Like old school death where like all your your whole house of cards is in like one single model that that dies at all falls apart Like obere don't play like that. They can actually project power to more than one space You know, they they every one of their units is the projection of power essentially Minus the shapers and and I would say suggest the harvesters. They those are compliment pieces Those are the ones those are the chinks in the armor you target first like um It's it's it's I actually love the design of the army and it it hates it sucks to have this this This black cloud over the whole thing that has even if they fix petrofex will have ruined everyone's opinion on it Because they just they let a couple hot takes kind of like spoiling army You know, yeah, I mean, it's the slanesh problem like people still slanesh has been like very much Kicked. Yeah, right like it's It's There slanesh rolls over and dies to a lot of forces now and it has much much much tougher games in many cases I'm fine with that. I think it's where it should be. I think it's correct now. Okay The other thing that's happening is people have figured out that you actually just target the units in slanesh and not the heroes Which was like something that was just absolutely infuriating to me It was like just target the heroes like because that was the mean response everyone generated on the internet. I'm like, no Target their other stuff that breaks the chain and depravity sure like Keeper doing infinite damage to a unit of Of skeletons like who gives a crap like just fight the the like do infinite damage that's getting to the skeletons over there I'm gonna take out the and so people they got nerfed and then people have also started to figure out the army And I I don't think they're not just gonna slide from You know s tier all the way to f tier or whatever, but they've they've taken a double hit You know, this is that that dreaded you get an adjustment and then the meta adjusts Like so you get hit kind of twice and that happened to slanesh they equalized out Flesher to quartz got the same thing Flusher to quartz actually got the triple hit So they got nerfed and then they got the the ghb hit too, right? Yeah, I don't I think they're probably the command point Quite a power army. I think they're the best death army like They don't take the hard elves the way the way obr do it the at the once you play the Things that had hunt obr Like flesher to quartz don't take losses of that stuff Agree to disagree. They're the best death army, but I think they're still quite good The so So, uh, let's let's talk about some other elements of the army here that I really want to reconsider And just have a discussion around as I'm about to sneeze maybe Oh, okay. It passed sneeze button. Okay. I was about to hit my mu, but yes it passed Uh, let's talk about them. See you mentioned them. Let's talk about crawlers, man Let's talk about them catapults Okay Uh One of the things I one of the things that makes me think that this army is actually pointed quite correctly Is I do see a lot of people making choices that I really do believe the problem lies in petrofex and almost completely petrofex Right like that if that is corrected in any of the five ways that end up being Like We sitting here aren't going to have the right answer. Do you know what the right answer is? Test all five ways a lot and then figure out. What's the right way to correct it? That's that's how you actually do it Yeah, um in the same way you didn't just fix lanesh by just ripping out a fix right you a lot of people spend a lot of time Play testing different things But people make real choices here and crawlers are one of those things that often comes in the in the choice thing Right of do you have crawlers or not? Yeah, you you commit to I think you commit to you commit to crawlers Or you don't and you commit to like your you're sort of like hero allotment You can't do it all that that's what's beautiful about this books internal balance actually Put petrofex in the bubble of it is a dead horse. I'm personally tired like a lot of my malice Like in talking about obr comes from like we get it. You hate it. I understand It's already in the works to be fixed. I assure you let's move on to talking about the cool stuff Like, um, I'm not shelving my army. Uh, I get to play with my toys. Everyone should the No, the the the the thing is is once you like go into like building the list It's everything costs like 200 points. So you're just like you're making really meaningful choices On like even like an obr unit or a more tech guard 130 points Like it's such a like a weird cost But what ends up what ends up happening is like because you're you're sort of cheapest battle on options 130 points Buying chaff now for that more tech crawler Becomes a real this hard decision to make Like sure you you you you can't just grab a 10 unit more tech guard as a keep back unit on this thing Any any army in the game worth its salt Will just charge around 10 guys Sure No, or piling twice around or teleport to the back side of it or whatever and a more tech The best way to deal with a more tech crawler is to not deal with it until you can deal with it I know that's kind of a weird statement, but it's like if you just like shoot it a little bit It's you're gonna help it Like actually a little bit because like the resource investment now is diluted from Dealing with the threats that are more immediate in the army But like then you just like outflank an ungore chariot Or a um a tough gore chariot and just like charge it and then like it's within six inches You don't even have to kill it. You just sit there. Right like one of the fascinating things to me about More tech crawlers to those who've played warhammer for a long time. I think this will this will resonate More tech crawlers feel like artillery felt in the Old world in the old world. Yeah Where like artillery was legit terrifying Okay, it could straight up remove units and like let's be Let's be honest here That crawler can Drop heat Right one two crawlers can just be like. I'm sorry. Did you need those five wound heroes because they're all dead now Yeah, I mean there's it it feels right though. Doesn't it like it it like you say like it feels like old school artillery um We're like it it's gonna try to earn its points back real fast But it's very susceptible to being lost in turn two three and to like it just you get one two turns out of it Which was old artillery or being or being nullified Yeah, because you just have to put something up Like in range Sure, sure, right because they can't chaff it Old artillery was very much like this where you would you would take a cannon and go Is this going to pay back its value in the first two battle rounds of the game? Right because I won't have it in the third Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah And and to me I think that's actually how crawlers feel they're interesting. I mean don't I I actually like them because They put immense pressure On the five wound synergy hero Which very few things have actually successfully done Not since the the old old thundercast days have we seen it right right exactly And a lot of armies were punching way above their weight because they were able to sort of rely on On like these 100 performing Yeah 90 point synergy heroes they could just float around Behind the cloud and never get touched in the armies. They could just only punch in melee Yeah, and even with like and in shooting even were like oh just shoot the thing Look out sir and and clever deployments and you actually just can't shoot those 90 point idiots Like they're just very difficult. Yes, right and you usually have to stick your neck out to try it, right? Like you you Oftentimes like are gambling with like your important pieces and then like opening yourself up to the counter charge So it's like a double just as planned. So like just shoot the heroes. Um, that's like the crazy The thing about just shooting in general is where is the balance between reaching out and touching someone in a meaningful way and like being able to get countered and or or or having it to be in a detriment and I don't know that games workshop has completely solved the rubik's cube on this one But I feel like more tech crawler are like really close Because it is you're only shooting our unit. I mean the gosh, it's a gaze It's you're only like shooting union in that army Most of your spells are not flamethrowers or even d3 mortal wound spells. They're all just like steroids and stuff Like so it's like you're you're you've got to go in on these catapults and once you do You kind of got to go like really in on the catapults if it's your plan If it was just one catapult that's where it's like really kind of yeah, I think that's interesting one catapult two catapults I think is is like it's just a really cool Like kind of commitment in the army and it does again become a commitment I mean, you're this is where you start to like take a soul mason because you're like, okay I want to re-roll those ones of those catapults, right? Right. Um, you know, this is where You know, but now you've got a mason a hundred forty point guys sitting back with your catapults This is where I want to take xanthos to re-roll wounds on those catapults And I want to go more to spray torians now and like to start building around catapults Like the lists start to like look a lot different And I think that's what's really cool about it. I love it. Um, and it's these are the kind of things I feel like we should talk about the other Thing that I find super interesting is Like kind of running the numbers on the matchups It feels like catapults give you a sure bet against your problem matchups But then like you weaken yourself to like The jungle as I like to refer to it as like So so these matchups that are sure bets before become less sure once you start going in on catapults And it's it's just a fun little like balancing act. This is this is the living meta personified No, I agree. I think that's the that's why I say again just to make the point I think that's why I say the army's costed correctly because you make real sacrifices have it But it gives you good tools in certain matchups. It's going to be a vulnerability another Somebody asked about so so here's a thing. Let's talk about this two thing that came out of the comments One person said, you know, it used to be like Fast riders and stuff like that that would go around in an attack cavalry and that was the answer in the old world What's the answer now and my answer is now? There's so many answers to backboarded artillery pieces, right because So many armies have things that can come in from ambush or things that can teleport or things You know what I mean where or or just things that are hyper fast So here's an example any unit in slaves to darkness Any unit in iron jaws any unit in Gloomspite gets um Any unit in change host? Um, basically I just teleported around a lot right Piece of chaos. I'll beat you with ongoing raiders and make you feel bad Right They're just going to make unwar raiders like march on next to it and then to charge it. You're like Yeah, I actually feel like one of the reasons they are Interestingly balanced is because there is so because most armies now honestly have tools like that to deal with it The number of armies that don't have some kind of tool that looks like that Is not common Ironically most of them that can that don't have it can ally in something that can Correct, although I'll say that like the one All of this like if if there was a corn player watching they're just having a conniption fit right now because Like corn in this matchup is just in a in a bad way between their complete lack of ability to sort of You know backboard like this or come in off the place or that they rely on a lot of five wound hero synergy To get not much but that just that doesn't point at a problem here as much as it points the same thing We've said many times that like corn isn't designed like corn should be designed, right? well, and the same thing I said at the onset just because a More powerful army exists, you know Doesn't mean like just because there's like a less powerful army like talk about, you know They're not like proving the point right like that's You know corn is in a worse spot The other notion is that like I think it's okay to have The game is so robust now with most books for the most part having a lot of tools within the book You know, I saw a lot of iron jaws players just switching up their weapons on their guys once the petrofex elite menace was was here Right, like they're like, okay. We're just gonna start taking a rend two weapons again Um, I feel like there was some hubris in the meta not taking uh taking a lot of rent Well for a long time there wasn't any pressure to have high rent, right? And and the and rend doesn't deal with hearthgar berserkers or hacknor, right? Like because they're there all the resilience is in redundant saves So I know you do need rend against hearthgar berserkers because You want to shear off their initial save because then they're just relying on the aftersave like oh Yeah, like that's the deal put them on at one four up save instead of two Right. Yeah, exactly two Like a two up re-rollable Right, like that's a very real world that hearthgar's could be facing like two up two up re-roll ones four up Yeah, but this isn't this isn't a discussion of the other two armies that are out of bounds in the game right now Fireslayers and zinch. This is about obr Who I will admit I think is less out of bounds than Well, it's probably tied with fireslayers and less well I mean if you have the the problems you have with fireslayers I think just gets a multiplier next to it because like now imagine more tech guard or like teleporting and piling in twice and Yeah, again, I don't want to devolve into that. Yeah. Yeah, again comparing it to to another army Leave fireslayers alone. I want I'm fine with the fireslayers menis honestly. I think it's funny I'm just like I'm just like and this army has just been like I don't know much maligned and I just I want people to get beaten by the naked baby Everybody has their time in the sun. So no, I think okay So crawlers general agreement here is we all like the crawlers think their point about correctly Think they're useful and have some interesting options and builds, right? We're all we're all pro crawler. Yes. Yeah Yeah, I mean just because I watched one guy roll in the 90 in the 10th percentile with them one time Like doesn't mean I think they're busted. Yeah, sure They can certainly have some of those days where like people fail a couple armor saves It's interesting that they can be used. So Even with just the default shot, let's not worry about the special. Yeah, no runs Let's just talk about the the default old the good old shot, right the base shot out of the gun It's so fascinating to me that it can be used like yes, you might just bomb out the five wound heroes Like God forbid you want to run cities of sigmar source services because they're all dead Instantly if they're not like the general with a retinue and blah blah blah But I'm fascinated by also just like well That monster over there I don't like it. It's got but it doesn't have a lot of healing in this game There are many monsters like this where they don't have a ton of healing, right? But I want to kill that thing, but it's on a three up save Well, I'll just throw all the catapult shots on it and say they'll probably roll some twos and ones, right? And that's like five or ten damage getting through A couple of those that's an issue. Yeah, right. So I'm fascinated by its ability to to do that Uh, so super cool It's the anti-cygour really when you think about it. Oh The cygour should just be like copying the uh, the crawler's homework. Yeah, I feel like do it borrow some of this man Yeah, just feel their homework. Just let me change a couple words Absolutely Absolutely Uh, let's talk about the uh, the mortis guard and the stalkers. Okay, so so our sort of big elite dudes um I have seen these show up in Some lists But I don't see them often meff. Where where are you coming down on these guys now? There they're often getting pushed out because of everything we've talked about so far Well, like it's it's just ponies and uh It's like ponies and more tech guard, right? Like that's that's what you take The the real my problem with immortis guard and stalkers Um is there's no if they had a battle line if option Um Which is where more tech like what makes crawler suite is like you're starting to see a list around them and uh, you know Like if you start to have to like make decisions and stuff like that there really isn't a decision to make because Stalkers and immortis guard aren't battle line and then you just take the other thing that's 200 points because you have to meet Your battle line requirements Like that's the problem. They ultimately have immortis guards are role players though So that makes them seem like they'd have an awesome job in the army But like you just can't afford to put a 200 point 200 points three bodies thing next to arcan Right, you know who's about to teleport anyway Like it's it's so they're they're the they're the unit that was most intrigued me at first Where i'm like, man, I think immortis star. I think immortis guard might actually be fieldable You're gonna actually play these guys to like protect catacross catacross protects himself Oh, you're gonna play them to protect a more tech crawler. No because they're gonna someone's gonna get them in the dead zone It doesn't matter anyway, right like, you know, like all these things that these role player jobs that I saw for the immortis guard It's like but it's a shitty job And and it's the wrong unit doing it going Yeah, you you're holding it up I would say yeah, like the problem is is that like once you build your list like They look great until you start list building And what you realize is that you get down to that last 400 points in your list Is it like by the time you get your heroes, but by the time you get your battle line you you get down to basically exactly 400 points Yeah, like that's that's how this always trots out and hear your options crawlers Uh Big zombie grabber guy the harvester harvester's yep The harvester or these guys or these other guys, right? You can basically have Two units out of that mix of things And the problem is is that these guys don't differentiate from the more tech and the Um the death writers the death writers. Yeah, they just don't differentiate enough where the harvester and the Uh the harvester and the crawler have a function a real function They're providing like hardcore utility in some fashion and killing backline heroes threatening big monsters Restoring units like to making units just unbelievably unbreakable taking it taking a unit of more tech guard from All problem to the problem when it's supported by it by a harvester, right? Like Yeah, um, that's the problem with mortis like with the the mortis guard like I want I like I think solving them as a Becomes like a battle line if option or or and and tapping their points down to where like you might consider them in that In that last slot because then it becomes a I can take these guys as my third battle line option Instead of like a unit of ponies to go with my 60 more tech guard And I can buy an endless spell with them like when you have to make that decision like that Um, and this is assuming that petra fix gets elite gets fixed because I just I just assume it will Um, like that becomes desirable stalkers on the other hand. I think are good Um, I just they're not running the list right now Uh, everyone's just running 60 more tech guard and you know, probably two harvester's maybe catechrose Um, if you're not on that everyone's gonna be on negation a bunch of ponies now, but it got second at canton I'm I'm moderately. I'm moderately upset. I wanted you guys just to let me get through the ghb with negation task Just come on you couldn't do that for me. Well, you were ready. He was he was up on the shelf for you You were like, oh, he's done. I'm never He's after shelf guy now after all one it my daughter broke him It was a metaphor and then like obr was coming back out I heard he could be played And I like I began fixing him and as I fixed him my heart fixed And that's why the book was good because I fixed him before the book came up. Yeah, that's clearly that's cool Yeah, that's what happened. You're welcome community As you bone shaped him back together. Yeah, I shaped negash back together and like I already knew I was running petra gash or Or negash uh in petra fex elite before anything Like I just knew it. I'm like, this is how I'm running him because I'm running negash plus 100 again, baby except Except instead of carrying 100 bodies with me to a tournament It's 50 instead and I was living the dream and then people had to let the stupid cat out the bag Nagash is great again No The old living machine gun is back. Yeah, he's so good. Yeah, it's it's the best Um, but yeah, no, I I think stalkers I think stalkers are good. Again. I think battle line if like I just And you can make this like Move them out of petra fex elite for the battle line if right like sure whatever it whatever it takes To like give them a battle line if to make the list building become more interesting because the list again It's it's actually like really cool like the the the dials like this is this is tickering with a watch That's the the fine tuning you're doing to this list at this level. This is it This is a piece of chaos where you're like building a playground You're like, oh, then it'll have a slide and it gets the swings and you just like throw everything into piece of chaos And then you have 400 points left over it is opposite thing. It's great. I love the tinkering um, but yeah, like stalkers and Stalkers and sell air glors like that's where I think they're really shine because that run in charge on those guys uh, the blender men now that they can project power and charge over terrain they become Just a just a little six block of them. That's your last 400 points like like tom was talking about They become you're already doing the other stuff. You're already going to go grind people out You're already going to run in charge now with your more tech guard In in stalli arc loads and then you've got this little Like just threat seeking missile Yeah, uh hit squad. Yeah, this hit squad just running around the table dealing with problems you know In your hard matchups and I I love I like that and you're going to get some like you're going to get some like, uh, like fluffy guy Cread like oh, look at him not running petrofex elite. Isn't this guy Just a hero the hero we deserve and then you're just going to blender them to death with blender men So great and like you wanted to run stuff straight up the table and fight now. I'm doing that On your level. So I I do like stalkers um like immortus though they just Battle line if and then you and then you solve it. I was actually surprised to that death riders were Were a battle line option, but then you're like you have two battle line options No, I mean death rider death riders should have been like here's my call He's jope. We lost to him. He's joking death. Yeah It was a good it was a good brandy or something too much too much fire slayers. That's yeah The fire water got too close to the forge there Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly Uh, yeah, I agree. It's it's funny to me that you look at a book like ko where they were clearly very Like say what you will about the ko book and I've said a lot Uh I do love how thoughtful they were with all the battle line if options in ko I actually enjoy that quite a bit That there are a lot of different interesting battle line if options that some are sunk to a hero some are sunk to a Uh, a skyport and we can argue about how that all balances out But it seems like they were trying to be thoughtful about it right and implementing a lot of different interesting ways to get at that It is surprising to me Here that that didn't happen at all right that we didn't see the stalkers or the guard as Like it's surprising to me. We didn't see like the guard as battle line if in mortis praetorians Or something right where it feels like they would have this sort of natural narrative alignment or whatever whatever Pick your thing right right? Uh, what were you gonna say tom if you're if you're now capable of talking again So sorry about that the scotch just got me. Um The fire water indeed. Um, I think that this could have been solved If the steliarch lords made the deathriders battle line And the mortis praetorians made the mortalis guard battle line. Yeah And I don't I don't know what to make this ivory host would be for star Is the is the yeah, I think that's right. And and so like and then keep everything else kind of as is Fix patrifect blah blah blah like if you keep everything else as is you see Steliarch lords like now pulling you into uh into Uh In like deathriders pulling you into steliarch lords and then the cavalos lance problem that I I have personally Doesn't exist as bad You know now now it becomes a tax rather than just a obviously you do to take half the best ability or half To take the best half of the abilities that steliarch lords get right You know like Now it becomes more interesting like it becomes and you don't need to make it as granular as some of the other stuff And I think that's where the battle line if falls down Is this it's too granular it's too. Oh sure if it's a and b and c if they're in this with this general and it's a Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fine. I agree with that. Yeah All right, so I want to I want to start wrapping us up here. So here's what I want to get to Uh, is there anything else we want to touch on ivory? Let's do some closing thoughts For as great as petrifex elite is ivory host is that bad I And like it is a Stinker like when you look at the book you're like they're like, oh man. Look at all these intelligent great like great, uh You know, look at all these intelligent really great bone claves And I'm like, oh man, I could like I see why I would run steliarch lords I see why I'd run nulmeria if the meta shifts I'd see why I'd run all of these yada yada yada ivory host There is no where I would run that that That enclave it might as well be a blank page in my book. It's the worst and it it like it It gives you a penalty to be in your enclave, which is just a thing that shouldn't happen Yeah, I already yeah, go ahead. I know all about about that with uh using my a throwable Like you're already penalized you shouldn't be penalized for an allegiance You're already being constricted. You shouldn't be further penalized. I see that like it bothers me Raise your goal doesn't get need to give you a bravery. Just it's a thing. It's the legion's ability use you you paid your ticket But take the ride like it's fine They don't need to and then they get a penalty to something two other factions get a bonus to right. Yeah Like well, it's also just unforgivable because you would say like well, okay Maybe that's useful if their command trait was bonkers and they had an amazing artifact And like, you know, the command ability actually then did something good But the command ability just backs out the penalty that you just introduced The command trait's terrible and the artifact's terrible like what it's just and it gives you a bonus You can get in three different ways right in the rest of the army. Yep. Yeah, yeah, like Ooh plus one to hit man. I have like I I have plus when you're hitting on threes almost universally anyways Yeah, like I'm tripping over plus ones to hit in this army. Why are you giving me plus one to hit? I don't know give them give them re-roll charges Like I like they're supposed to be the killie blendery lose their mind and murder you thing Give them plus one attack Like let it stack with the other plus one attacks across the army. Like do something Like and why a penalty so as as garbage as petrifyx elite is Or as great as petrifyx elite is ivory host is just garbage So if you're gonna fix petrifyx elite and bring that back in bounds I think ivory host is out of bounds the other direction and you need to bring that back in bounds too I fully support this I like my ultimate love and desire and perfect world would be If when I cracked a book and I look at the and honestly, this is one of the places where Like credit where it's due ever been This is where well This is one of the places where I look at ko and actually feel like they were more successful than most Where I look at most of the skyports and feel like they all Like there's interesting things going on in most of the skyports now They do that by most of them being fairly uninteresting and not adding much to it you Like they're all minimal, but they're all equally minimal Let me just say the longer I sit with it. The better that zilfin clearly is than everything else I I don't know. I I don't know that I agree with that, but at any rate Not the not the current discussion There had there wasn't like there was no petrifyx that came out immediately and there wasn't one where somebody went This is completely out of bounds like ivory host is so i'm down with that My perfect world is I want to open a book see five sub allegiances and go man I don't know which one of these five I want to run right I I'd go a step further. I'd want to open a book and go. Oh man. These guys are cool I have an idea for a list for that Yeah, and it fits my narrative or like I want to run the wolverine host It's ivory host like the wolverine host. They're berserkers like I would love to do that But like I look as a as a person whose fluff can only carry him so far I get I get to that and like I am playing this at a Detriment to myself right and like so i'm having a feels bad Of playing it the other way we always talk about the feels bad of like being too powerful Right, like it's easy when something's too powerful to just go like I won't take that thing Right, it's really hard when something is straight up trash To like make it great like and that's Considering the two I would rather have the former than the latter I would rather be able to self-comp and say, you know, I just want to run that because I am a gentleman Like I joke and I talk a big game because I I like to meme on people but like At the end of the day, like I I would rather I would rather have to round down than try to round up and be incapable of it. Sure. I get it. That's fair Tom any final thoughts on obr here as we revisit them? I mean Yeah Yeah, like I I wish um Like I Yes, I wish things were different Well, hopefully in a few months they will be I just like I don't I don't see that happening like maybe But like just the FAQ like the amount of I don't know Maybe sometimes these things take time and often like I said the fix could be something that you're they're looking at They don't want to make on a on a like that would be a fast knee jerk for them to have reacted now Do we all sit here and think yes, they should have done it But we also have the benefit of another couple months of hindsight over when they were needing to make those calls. Yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, and then they're Go ahead. Go ahead. Like I mean my my great fear is that they overcorrective steer on this 100% I don't want to see things nerfed into the ground We we don't want to repeat of the zinge the ko thing. That's worse than than anything else, right? So I think we're all good with that Um Oh, but some people think that they should for the crimes they've committed against the meta. I'm I'm not They have committed crimes, but yeah, yeah Yeah, well, you guys shouldn't have evaded your taxes if you to drink your milk and paid your taxes Given the bone tithe to Nagash like we wouldn't be in this predicament All right, so, uh, yeah, I think that's right. I think we'll we'll wait to see what happens in the You know in the couple months. I'm sure there's much more discussion that's going to happen around OBR And we'll see how it all goes. Uh, it is a Here's what I'll say. They certainly made a successful new army. I mean, I think this is probably something to leave it on Whatever the case with Petrifex. Yeah, I already read that This army both for casuals and clearly for tournament players It has grabbed people's imaginations in a big way to have an army that came out three months ago jumped to nine percent of the meta is An amazing accomplishment. Well, this This is the army knight haunt kind of should have been You know, like knight haunt was supposed to be deaths Like real ages sigmari thing Right. I mean flesh and accords have amazing fluff, but they never That was it's it's very niche, you know, like it's cool fluff Like that's niche like when you're a death player, you're not just like I want cool Like it's it's usually like skeletons necromancers vampires Like there are the the you know, like the tenets of like what death Is for people who traditionally love fantasy when you see OBR you go That's a freaking Skeleton in ages sigmar they got the super shredder serum from teenage mutant ninja turtles Secret of the ooze they slammed it back With a glass of milk they like hulked up and now they're fighting like or or they're just the turtles from the newer movies where they were Really strong They're so swole. Um Yeah, like like that's that's like that's awesome that they did that and and and then it catches your imagination you go like Um, you go like I can see more of this I can see them releasing a like a like a wing to carry it down the line or like me finally getting my bone dragon Like I can see like my bone dragon horror where it's like an amalgam of bones roughly in the shape of a dragon Like I can see it's getting all that stuff Like down the line where like we get our they open, you know the open the chambers for for storm cast internals We can get a wave two of this just like cities can get like a wave two and get some new cities in there Well, uh, yeah, they mentioned like bone Other pieces of bone artillery In in the wrath of the ever chosen that cataclysm uses to defend his fortress Like he has more war machines than just crawlers In the story, right? Yeah Yeah, you know, that's yeah, there's there's clearly more stuff going on there. So, uh, yeah, I agree Uh, so there we go everybody obr revisited. I think it's a good interesting discussion Ultimately, I want to know where you think we want to know what you all think Oh, just as just as dan from aowish or to join us, of course We're calling it a night, but hi dan Uh, but for all of you who are still watching, uh, please hit that like button Make sure you you give that a smash as they say on the internets Because it does help other people find the show and obviously we really appreciate that So make sure you hit the like it takes like two seconds. There you go. Look you can move your mouse over Just that fast click it there you go. So thanks everybody meff. Thank you very much for coming back on the show, brother It was a good time Anytime man. Anytime. Thanks for having me always a party. I am I am sure I'm gonna see you again pretty soon sad You're not gonna be at uh, holy wars, but uh, will you be at adept con? I I'm hitting uh, the ones confirmed for the calendar are a con and midwest meltdown And uh, uh, is it a con? Excellent Yeah, yeah, dude. Do they know does the world know yet tom? I don't know. I think I told everybody, um So for teams, uh, I can may I'll make the announcement now since you're on the show Um, so for teams, uh this year for my a con team for our a con team. Uh, it's uh myself v plan uh meff um Hey woe twitch And He's got to tease it And Do you want to do the reveal? Say it you're building it up way too much. Yeah, and ben saw them. Um, and so, uh So meff ben and uh, and hey woe twitch We're gonna be rolling some dice at a con and it's gonna be a blast I Can't wait to walk by the table uh in between teaching classes or whatever i'm doing and watch you guys play It should be a great time Uh, looking forward to that like I said the countdown's on folks five weeks Hope to see everybody there again. Don't forget those new classes are up So if you're interested if you're going to be in the uk, uh, I would love to see at the class dark sphere is an awesome place It's a really really great store. Uh, so that's going to be super fun And again, we're going to do big monsters and we're going to do characters. It's going to be a wonderful time So thank you all for watching very much appreciated it. Uh, and as always We'll see you next wednesday. Bye. Bye everybody. Peace everyone as it tries to start