 Alrighty, it's 5 o'clock PM on Thursday, February 29 at the middle, 6 town hall. We are calling the meeting to order and welcoming guests and the explanation of this informational hearing. The select board is holding per 17 BSA statute 2680 H2 a, which states. Quoting the hearing on a public question shall be held within the 10 days preceding the meeting at which the Australian ballot system is to be used. The legislative body shall be responsible for the administration of this hearing, including the preparation of minutes. No action will be taken at this hearing. And this is regarding article 7. Which is shall the town of middle sex voters authorize the select board to purchase a new excavator in an amount not to exceed $200,000. To be financed over a period not to exceed 15 years 24 BSA statute 1786 AC to be voted by Australian ballot. So, is there any information that anyone here would like to share about this article about the excavator? Okay, are there any questions about this article from any guests? We have a couple of guests online. I don't know who MJ is. It's just Michelle. There we go. Welcome Michelle. Okay. Hi, Michelle. Sorry, I didn't know who you are. You're not just Michelle. You're Michelle. Let's see. Explanation of article by select board, road foreman commissioner. So you're just explaining that when it's a certain amount of money, it has to be an article. And It's the amount of time that you're borrowing and the amount of time that you're borrowing. Okay. So, and could someone just clarify for the record that if this article were to be approved, it would be purchased in fiscal year. 25 July one after July one and not financed till the following year. Does anyone know? I'm just curious. That would be ideal. I don't think we're gonna make it through it. Oh yeah, let's purchase it now. Our excavator now is on the brink of no longer. Okay. So this is for an excavator to be purchased before July one, but funded or something. We'll start a year from point of purchase. A year from point of purchase. Okay. So, yeah, we would have to If we buy it after July one, the payment wouldn't come through until 2026. But if you buy it, it'll come through and then our budget year 25. If you buy it before July one. Okay, which is the plan is to buy it before July one or at least I would it'd be nice if we could. Okay. The the reason we had to rent one last fall was because this one was Not right. Okay. So we're not we're not we're just financing it and that the financing if it's before July one would begin in this next year. This next this way it's the payment comes to one year from the date. Okay. So that would be with the sign of the year. Yeah, the next when you take out. Okay. Alrighty. Any other questions just Eric, if you could just with a long time ago, we talked about this a relatively long time ago. And I know we're not making a decision today about what excavators are going to do. And I know we're not making a decision today about what excavator we're going to buy. We did have some discussion about what size, etc, etc. Do we still think I mean so so I'm just interested knowing any update on that and also As far as we know we think the trade in of our old excavator Will be okay. I mean not great but okay Correct. Depending on which route we do the trade in varies Between $30 40,000 Depending on the machine and which which brand I think Vic and I've talked and I think we've both decided that the bigger of the two would be a better option for us And the longevity of it. So yeah, that's pretty much where we're at with that. Can you talk about that so We're looking at the pretty much the equivalent size to what we have now I think what I found with with renting the smaller one it was very difficult Pulling stone out of the back of a tandem dump truck I think it would take way it just slows the process down way too much That's my personal feeling And we and we are comfortable As comfortable as we can be that between the trade in and the 200,000 That price is still a good price. We'd be okay Yeah, that's actually more than I think it's going to be more than what we need But I wanted a buffer Did you have a question Randy? Yeah, I was just you mentioned that you were looking at a couple. Yeah Yeah, one is brands Case Cabelco Cabelco Yeah And from Anderson anyway Yes Case CSE And Velco like the company It's not a cabelco. They don't have It's just a case Case Where the confusion comes from sir is that the dealer that sells the case used to sell cabelco But they don't sell cabelcos anymore because I don't know why they're not making it So just forget the cabelco Forget the cabelco Case or kamatsu is the other other one we were considering Yes Just a question. Are you going to be at town meeting? Yeah Okay And you are too Okay, I just in case someone wants to go into details about the excavator and has questions will be an article. Okay You got a question And this excavator will be able to be transported by our newly acquired trailer, right? Correct Okay, Vick, do you have a question? Or comment? No No? Okay Oh, yes So I was under this understanding that this wasn't going to be purchased before July 1 And therefore there is no money budgeted for the payment in the next year's budget But doesn't this actually if it passes doesn't this It gives you permission to buy it but it doesn't put the money in the budget Oh, I thought it did Not the payment Because the budget, the budget's already developed that we're asking them to Well, but the 65,000 for the town hall isn't in the budget that gets added if it gets passed the way the special But that is part of it But it is in the budget, you're right, it is a part of it if it, but if it doesn't it gets taken out of the budget Right So don't we take some money out of our new capital fund? Yes Which is not included in the budget I mean we've talked about a couple different We've talked about a couple of different things and it was thrown on the ARPA list The capital asset inventory or that fund has some money in it I don't know as if it's been talked about expressly pulling from that as down payment for this or future purpose Purchases but yeah, I don't think we've had that level of conversation that I remember as of yet Can I ask a question, Drinda? When you buy a piece of equipment like through Community Bank for example It goes to purchase the equipment, right? It doesn't go to like refund us for purchasing the equipment No, so we use that to pay for it when it comes Right, because that's the collateral sort of, right? Yeah Yes, I'm just checking No Would we be allowed to Like we did On the greater, we got the greater like a month or so earlier, but we didn't pay on it until the Well, they didn't bill us until after July 1 If we make that arrangement, let me rephrase that I don't care, I mean Let me speak guys, it does not matter as a general rule But, you know, we didn't, but normally you would budget the payment, you know Because we have a budget, you know, a payment due within the physical year 25 So, in this case it would be ideal if you could If you could have them bill you I don't know how soon you'd take possession of it It will be a discussion Do I have to have a discussion? Negotiation as part of the sales Yeah, I bet they do that I bet they do that But the other way, and again, you know This creative financing as far as if you, you know Maybe barred from here to And put the money back or something like that Again, I just wasn't, when we were doing this I wasn't under the impression it was being purchased before July 1 I don't think we made it clear Yeah, I think we talked about getting one But I don't think we ever talked about it And this article only allows us to purchase it It doesn't actually put money in the budget for the first payment And you can, and it doesn't, if this gets approved It doesn't mean you have to purchase it Right, right, right, yeah It's just giving you And that's why we put it into this warning So at least there would be something in place Okay, so Go ahead, ask a question If we were to order that excavator next month What would we be likely to receive it? Is it like trucks or it's three months later? No, it would only, it would be a short time Month or so Okay So we're in March They might even have it April They might even have it coming in They could Okay, that's possible So we don't have the mutt And you would, how much does it cost? After a trade-in Just an example Theoretical amount Please hold I have no idea how much trade-in is Probably a neighborhood of one such And I'm just trying to think out loud here So suppose we just read your plan Or whatever the right word is And tell me if this passes month or the remainder That we would take the first payment Out of our capital fund It's a possibility, yeah I mean, I guess it's, I don't know Who manages the capital fund Who decides, you know That was something that was assigned To the Budget Committee So is it, it's all-town money But who, they were saving it For a different purpose, I think, weren't they? Or no It's not, it's not set aside For a specific purpose But it is, or for a specific purchase Sorry, not purpose It is designed to offset The purchase of any Large piece of equipment or truck I think the thing that the Select Board needs To think about as we determine how we pay For what pot of money we pull from For down payments or anything else is What else is coming down the line I know that we have trucks In multiple years coming up And how we, you know How we do that So, I mean, we're not here to figure out How we allocate money for it today But it is absolutely a conversation That we need to have All right, Fred So in hindsight though Just thinking about this Because I just want to get clarity On the budget, the 65,000 Was put as a line item Well, that's something You're going to be paying all in one year So yes, it's just like But it's in our budget It's there This is something completely different Because you're financing it Over 15 years So we haven't necessarily We're not going to pay the $200,000 Right, no, I know, yeah Where, you know, so But it might be 25,000 or 30,000 We did not put it in We did not budget for it Okay, all righty So are there any other questions from attendees I think the only other question that I have And we're not there yet As far as like selecting a place To purchase from or whatnot But I just want to make sure We think about, you know, serviceability And, you know, the customer service That we get, you know With some of the things that have happened With trucks I just want to make sure That that's on top of our scoring sheet For who we purchase this from Then training the appropriate Sound to handle it efficiently I would also suggest right along that line, Randy That if an extended warranty is available We can consider taking that extended warranty The warranty And if they come out Do they charge you to work on it Even though it's under warranty Is all a factor Yeah Right, thank you We've been burn lately on our trucks And it's frustrating Yeah Any other questions About the article 7 Yes I was running around doing stuff Did you guys discuss whether or not Your finances before July You're going to take this before July 1st Or after July 1st We're not deciding that at today's meeting TBD We're just discussing the article It's a TBD, yeah TBD, all right We'll see if it even passes first Yeah Yeah Okay, well One step at a time Okay However, I will One more thing before we adjourn Is there An estimate to render Like Of what the interest rate would be on this So we could If someone asks What would the payment be on a monthly I mean on a yearly basis What is the interest rate Well, we've gotten very favorable Interest rates up until The last couple years Yeah I just I inquired The last one I inquired about It was They're looking at it 6% 6% Somewhere around there Yeah That was Holy moly And that's something that probably Most of these places have Financing themselves And the rates are dropping back again At the bank So it may I can always ask around Well, just ask about I mean the bank is We can deal with all the bank financing You don't have to worry about that But if these companies Offer financing And that's how we Compared it to when we bought The greater Of course You either stop talking Or meet yourself That's In the It's outside Peter It's not on a mute Okay So But yes It was When I inquired What I inquired about before But she said Oh, I was talking about Renewing our line of credit And she said It definitely wouldn't renew At the rate that we've got now A manufacturer may have something They might have programs too Yeah Yeah This is amortized on a monthly basis But that's 15 20 times 12 That makes sense, doesn't it? I can inquire So it would be the principle You would divide that by 15 years And then whatever that payment is 20K Yeah, 20K Yeah At 6% Yeah Okay All right Are there any other questions Or comments About article 7 And the purchase of a new excavator I'd just like to add it on the record That clearly We need This excavator It's an important piece of equipment for the town And it's very important for us To go ahead with that This isn't some frivolous purchase We've carefully thought about it We certainly When we made the decision To buy our first excavator Or our last excavator There was some question about Whether we use it We would use it or not And I think The answer is We've worn the poor thing out using it So There was no question that we That we've used it And gotten good value out of it Okay Did you get that, Sarah? He wants for the record Peter just wants for the record That That this That we really do need this excavator And We're hoping that the town would be supportive And yes You had another comment You had the You figured that What the payment might Close Yeah, I like around 20,000 20,000 a year Yeah, a year Yeah Approximately Okay At a 6% interest rate Yes, Randy Just thinking about Getting stuff out there In the meeting It's 180,000, by the way For those who might watch this recording I think it'd be good For folks to know as well If we have an estimated cost For any types of repairs That are currently necessary I know the undercarriage is worn I think that that's going to be A useful piece of information For folks Just so that they know The new cost Versus what it would take To repair this one to a point Where we're comfortable And feel like it would be reliable enough So if we had an idea of what An undercarriage replacement cost would be And I don't know what other issues there may You may be having with it right now But it sounds like most of it's undercarriage The major part of it is that There's other issues That's not as frontline Yeah So I think that if we had that information For town meeting That'd be good information And just a ballpark An estimate from somebody to say In this range Sarah has a question of clarity How much did we spend to rent? How much did we pay to rent that thing last fall? You know, off the top 5,000 a month 5,000 a month Yes How many months did you rent it for? I think it was only a month Month or two I think it was a month Was it a month? Only a month? I think so I think it was only a month What's that? I think it was only a month Right Okay Are there any other questions About the excavator in Article 7? All righty Then if there are no other questions We'll adjourn the meeting at 522 We'll take a break until 530 And just so you know Guests who are here will resume A new meeting at 530 For the vicious dog hearing So Recording in progress All righty It is 530 p.m. In the middle sex select board Special meeting For a vicious dog hearing So we're going to call the meeting to order We're going to welcome the guests Sarah just collected your names When it's time for you to speak I'll ask you to repeat your name For the record That would be helpful And just to understand We don't do these hearings very often Which is a good thing So We're all a little rusty on the procedures But Sarah has presented us with a very Detailed list of how this meeting will be run So I'm going to follow it very Very detailed So it should run pretty smoothly But just so you know I can't remember the last time that we did this And for some of this Some of us in the meeting This is the first time It was her last time Right Okay And so if You are Called upon to speak Or if you have a question And say oh I want to clarify something You'll address me, the chair My name's Liz And so when you're talking You're talking to the chair To me and the select board Not to the people involved Within the meeting So Let's see I think that kind of take that That covers our housekeeping Sarah is there anything else Around housekeeping that I Want to say Before we start Before we go in In terms of communication And stuff I think the procedure is Everybody's got it Yeah I'll go through that So the first part of this That you have here Is the procedure And we're going to Literally go through them Step by step So everyone who's Involved gets an opportunity To speak So the first thing That I'm going to do Is actually read The hearing The public notice And it says here Public notice The middle sex select board Special meeting A special meeting Of the middle sex select board Will be held at 5.30 p.m. Thursday February 29th, 2024 In middle sex town hall To conduct a vicious dog Hearing regarding an alleged Dog attack on French road That occurred on February 23rd, 2024 This person may be attended In person or via zoom Okay So all of us who are Present either in person Or in zoom Are reminded that this hearing Is mandated by state law And that's 20 VSA statute 3546 This hearing will be conducted In an orderly manner And all statements must be Directed to the chair Or vice chair Who is me If she is chairing So that's me So that's when I said Rather than talking to the People in the meeting You talk to the chair So the next step is I'm going to ask the Complaintant who is Deb Lind If she has any questions About the hearing No Okay The next is to disclose Of conflicts of interest By the select board Is there anyone here Who has a conflict of interest With either parties Or the dogs themselves Okay No conflict of interest Okay I will state that Deb is A neighbor and lives on my road But I think Because this is middle sex That isn't considered A conflict of interest Unless someone else Thinks it is Okay Okay So the Complaintant Who again is Deb Lind And her representative And all others Providing evidence Is that That everyone in the room Including the dog owner Sarah That do the oath If any of these guys Is going to You guys are going to talk You should take the oath Yeah So we're going to take The oath So you are going to Take the following oath And you're going to Read it aloud Does anyone need help With reading this aloud Okay Well also So Dr. Penny and Erica If you could also Read the following oath Do you have it And you'll say it Allowed I hereby solemnly swear Or affirm That the evidence I give In the cause under consideration Shall be the whole truth And nothing but the truth Okay Thank you So the next step is To accept written information From Complaintant Presented to the Select Board And so that is The town of middle sex Vicious dog complaint form As well as a letter That was submitted To describe the situation Okay So has everyone had a chance To read through this Do you want to take A few minutes to read Through this Okay I've read that You have not read this No those complaints No we have not Okay I'll share the truth Well You want to read them Yeah Why don't I read it aloud Okay So this is from Debra Linde She lives at 325 Culver Hill Road This was on 223 2024 And the place of attack Was 99 French Road in middle sex The person who was bitten Who was deaf Did require medical attention That was circled Yes she required medical attention And we know that the property owner Was Richard Friot Am I pronouncing that correctly Friot Okay And in a Let's see Okay Deb was walking her dog Arrow Is the name of the dog As she does most every day By this location Dogs always bark And sometimes follow But never attacked This day they attacked Arrow And Deb was caught In the fray Three dogs attacked Arrow Brown pit bull type White with black spot on face Pit bull type Name sunshine Black skinny dog Name Otto They pinned him down Pin down Arrow While growling, barking and biting Owner of dogs I assume came out He started kicking, yelling And beating the dogs With something on a cord I don't know what They paid no attention to him We were both trying to separate them After I got Arrow free After 10 to 15 minutes He ran down the road I was bleeding a lot From hands and arm I started to walk And the man yelled Stop walking I kept not I kept going Not realizing what he meant He yelled the same thing again I stopped and stated To find my dog He then said That if I kept walking The dogs would follow So I stood in the road For another five minutes While he corralled his three dogs I walked the mile home Arrow had run home Okay So you will have an opportunity To ask some questions We're going to follow along So Now is an opportunity Deb, it's a complaint To present oral testimony Would you like to share This is for That's about it At a nutshell Okay I walked by there As I said I walked by there For the past year You know, I go by one way And come back this way The dogs bark I've even given You know, thrown a couple treats They weren't too interested But they were not aggressive You know A couple times They followed But they're again Not chased And I You know, so I That day I was just Arrow was not on a leash At that time The leash was in my hand Arrow comes Whenever I call So sometimes I let him off At least just You got to see I got to know Sometimes we go by Your house he's on a leash Sometimes he's not So, you know Be honest about that He was not that day And so I do I honestly do not know What precipitated the dogs To feel they had to be aggressive That day I do not know Because they had not been before And I don't know these people Personally But I always wave and speak And you know It's like it's I feel I feel awful I'm upset I'm angry But I'm not You know It happens It happens You know And I don't know why it happened That day You know But if they are going to be aggressive I think they need to You know To somehow be At least kept on their property Somehow because they came into the road Arrow did not go on Their land They came to the road And wish they all would stay And I didn't know at that time That other people had complaints About them People jogging And stuff like that I was unaware of that You know So that's About it And actually I guess I spent Five hours in the emergency room I'm pretty You know Chewed up But You know It can always be worse The doctor said If it wasn't a dog bite You would have had to have stitches But they don't stitch dog bites Because of bacteria I guess And I'm sure That All the dogs were biting But these dogs precipitated You know My dog was on its back And these dogs were on top Of my dog I guess So You guys can correct me If I'm wrong So the next opportunity Deb is Yeah This is his jacket That he had on Which I think helped actually And here are some pictures Of Deb's Dog bites So this was one hand Passing around I'm going to tell you If anybody's to say Milker doesn't work I begged it to her Because this was This is a jacket Which is just for So we can You know I can see it But this thing Was being Pulled And pulled And pulled By these dogs And it never Never came I can't believe it You know Velcro usually Will give This He would have been Better off If it had Right Come off And he could have Escaped Probably But so there's Holes And I think probably He's helped He's arrowed From getting more hurt He has a puncture Behind his ear Which was treated By the vet But it's clean And doing well Okay So next is The opportunity For the select board To ask you any Further questions Deb No If we If the select Board members Have any further questions For the complaint And Deb About her experience I don't have any questions Okay Randy Not yet Yeah I I noticed that The jacket Had some Holes in it Did that occur Through this event? Yes I think The only other The only other question That I might have is You stated that You were out in the roadway Yes And the dog never Went on to the Property No Were you up against The property Lined on that side Or out in the middle of the road Or Like that's Okay The only question I have one question Deb I don't remember what it is I do I'll remember in a second Does anyone else Have any questions On the board Jeff or Peter No more questions For me Thank you Let me just think If I can remember this Yeah I might come back to it Your dog Was off the leash Yeah And Oh I know what it was In your attempt to Remove Your dog from the fight Were the dogs Just biting Willy-nilly Or Were they literally Attacking you Like Deliberately They weren't attacking me Per se Yeah I was trying to free The dogs As was this gentleman And it was just The bites got Yeah We ended up on The other Side of the road Yeah Because Okay And And those dogs Chased And we ended up By the mailbox On the other side Of the road Down in the Okay And Was your Did your insurance cover The dog bites As far as I know As far as you know As far as I know Okay So are there any other Questions from the Select Board About this About Deb's Experience Okay Alright So then The next thing That we do Is Alleged to be Involved In the attack Or the owner's Representatives Are invited to Respond To the evidence Presented by Deb So who owns These dogs? The three of us The three of you Own the dogs Okay And you all live At I was involved Okay So Why don't you Explain What happened On that day When Deb was walking With her dog Deb was walking With her dog By the way She says She has many times It's never been a problem For whatever reason I did notice She did not have On the leash As we were fighting The dogs I noticed that But Autumn ran Up her She went by Autumn ran Up the driveway Back in Because she's A mouthy dog So all she does Is back And her dog Growled And went towards Autumn I tried to stop it I also got A bit close On the arm I have pictures I can show you On my phone I believe it was By her dog At that time I had my two dogs By the throats Under my arms And Once again The dog didn't Bite me knowing It was biting me They were just Trying to get away And Like she said Once My dog Sunshine Slipped her collar I could have had It by the collar At first I thought I'll let you have A damn dog go And Then I grabbed When I grabbed Them both by that That's when I Received a bite On my wrist And on my arm I did not See medical attention Because You're going to Get a dog fight You're going to get bit That's what I'm Considering But I said The only thing I noticed That was different That day Was her dog Was not under These And it Was forced to come Up the driveway We Since then Now no longer Let all three dogs Out at one time Because We don't want this Happen And they're under Tentate warranty And That's Because Two of them Do not have rabies Shots because They've not reached That part In their life yet My vet Told me Not to They were A year old They're not A year old yet But yeah I've got The dogs For some strange reason That particular day I Got the Dogs down I got them Finally off Her dog Her dog Took off running down The road I knew it was safe I still Have the dogs For a minute And then If she's trying To walk Up I did have To tell her Choice Please Stop so I Get my Dogs under control They're going found located her house to make sure she was all right but she was apparently already gone at that time because I did want to make sure she and her dog were all right but something that shouldn't have happened my dog's not vicious one of the boy members here has seen my dogs all met my dogs the health inspector mad dogs saw our dogs and those are not vicious dogs no way my five-year was climbing on today okay so now at this moment the select board members so there's three of us here and then there's two on the TV have an opportunity to ask you some questions okay are there any questions from the select board okay Vic does not have a question Brandy do you have a question or do you want to think about it yeah I'd like to just think for a minute okay peerhood you have a question yes I just have one question so my understanding is that none of the three dogs will register for the town of no sex is that correct yeah no they're not because I thought I couldn't register mine until she get a rabies job where she gets in a month and a half when she turns a year old right so so two of the dogs weren't yet a year old is that true right yes yes okay Jeff do you have any questions right now yeah I do have a couple questions for like us all the owners it was mentioned that you all aren't letting all three of them out at once but are you doing something to keep them out of the road in the future yes we don't allow all three them out at a time and one of us is out there with them at all times now and we are looking into the possibly getting one of those invisible fences to put around the property he's sharing pictures of the dog bites on his arms okay yes so like there would be more yes yeah so let's see it is you don't have any questions right now for I don't think so for them okay I don't think I have any questions either I guess one question I have is because I also walk by there sometimes are there only three dogs all the time or is this new like I've never I am never clear to me how many dogs there last eight months okay but has there's always been a little beagle or something that looks like only goes out to use the bathroom and it goes back okay so these are three dogs that sort of joined all at the same time more or less or in the last eight months they've become a pack those are seven years old he's the older one and all of the rescue arms are rescue and she'll be a year old like next month okay what did you say the other dogs they must dozer dozer and dozer is the is the skinny dog no okay so I had autumn sunshine autumn autumn okay okay and dozer autumn yeah autumn sunshine and dozer okay and all three dogs which one is the Datsun so there's actually four dogs that live there but there are four dogs in the house okay okay okay so Skittles and is the fourth that doesn't go outside okay and is Skittles registered okay so just as a side note every year you should register your dogs with the town and that's are they fixed okay so how much is it Sarah okay nine for fixed 13 for not fixed okay okay okay so the next thing is members of the public and we have a couple members of the public here we have Erica and we have dr. Penny okay who have been involved in this situation so you are invited to present any relevant information regarding this complaint do either of you have something that you'd like to share okay Erica so I was just sorry introduce yourself to that sorry so Erica home I am the town's animal control officer and I received the call from dev within minutes after it the occurrence so couple things I did want to clear up not specific to the incident but it's state law that your dogs are vaccinated for rabies at age 12 weeks and older so I they get puppy shots and you got to get them out of year that told me a year so that's what I would you're about as Paul Alferon he knows that at 12 years so you need to vaccinate your dog at state law at 12 weeks they get a rabies shot it's good for one year they get that within the second shot within a year and then it's good for three years and then you need to continue but you don't wait until they're one year old it's a state law so you need to get those dogs vaccinated right now so for just want to make sure you're clear on that and that your other dogs have been vaccinated so there's no reason they shouldn't be licensed with the town one of the reasons there's many reasons to license but also one of them is so that when I find a stray dog I'm able to figure out who the owners are okay Erica sorry you should be talking to me so yeah so you know that's just another reason why they should be registered with the town besides the fact that it's it's part of the requirement by the state the dog ordinance does specify that our leash law allows a dog to be off a physical leash in control of their owners by voice arrow is in-depth control your dogs running out into the road public road off your property off the owner's property is a violation that's not in control so just to clarify that the fact that arrow was not on a physical leash is not a violation of our dog ordinance keeping your dogs on your property is what needs to happen I would like to say as a select board considers solutions to this that an electric invisible fence is not a good solution so especially with dogs that have reactivity and aggression toward other dogs and people from what we have heard from joggers bicyclists and walkers an invisible fence which will shock them when they attempt to go to those people or other dogs is an aversive training method that actually makes dogs more aggressive so it's not a great system especially in this and I have had an invisible fence underground fence for my own dogs in the past and I do a lot of dog training so I would recommend that the select board does not consider that a viable containment system for the public safety because it will make the dog more aggressive and it really will not prevent them from going after people if they want so they're gonna go through it you need a you need a physical fence for these dogs and there's all kinds of options for physical fence even in this weather to be you know installed that they're not gonna necessarily go under your doxons more likely to dig under a fence then okay yeah just make sure that you're addressing so from my perspective what I would recommend is that there is a you know containment system for the dogs that is not a shock it is a physical containment to protect the public and from keeping these folks going these dogs going out to the road and in the meantime it's great that you're not letting them out together because that does tend to sort of inspire them to act like you know a bratty group of dogs but during this 10-day quarantine you have to actually have them on a leash when you're outside we cannot risk having them disappear because they need to be observed at the end of the 10-day quarantine to make sure they're not showing any signs of neurological deficit especially considering a couple of these dogs have no vaccine history whatsoever so they have no protection from rabies if they've been bitten by any wildlife so not that we don't have a huge rabies risk of domestic dogs in the state do I believe these dogs have rabies no but to fulfill our obligation to them and to the public you can't risk them going outside to and running away so please have them make sure they're on a leash until the 10-day it's only a few more days okay and I why don't I then Dr. Penny if you have anything that you want to add and then we can ask questions of the two of you that okay the town health officer I just met with Mr. Dwyer the house location a few days ago to deliver notice of this meeting it went well the owner was there the dogs came out and sniffed around but we're not aggressive at all are the dogs at your house where are they right now okay is there anything else dr. Penny that you want to add okay so now there's an opportunity for the select board once again to ask more questions or make comments yes Randy I just hearing the two different stories I guess I just have a question for dad actually you should ask me sorry I have a question for dad okay I think the only this the story seemed to align with each other except for I heard a reference to her dog growling and lunging at the dogs at the property and I guess the question is did she happen to observe that as well okay did you hear that yeah yes I did no I honestly I didn't but I look dogs all as these dogs have all sniffed you know touch noses sniff their butts they've all done this stuff before and no in answer to your question I did not observe it but if that's what dogs do and it could have happened yes Randy in her typical walks I'm wondering if traditionally there is a dog out and maybe not the full pack of dogs I'm just wondering what the normal conditions have been previous prior to this with my dog with other dogs specifically walking by this location oh like well all three dogs be out at once is that a common occurrence or is it usually one dog or fairly common okay like I said they've met they've sniffed up in the road I even offered them treats so something triggered something it sounds like something triggered something that day that day I mean these dogs were never I would say friendly they did want me to you know I put my hand down they did want anything to do with me but they weren't aggressive they would turn and go away you know I don't know what are we allowed to ask Sarah you know the answer about the other instances with this dog because when we're making this decision we also have to think that there were other people who have made complaints about these dogs well we've received one plate that was Heather Heather Collier no I did Heather okay and what was that I can't remember what that complaint was she said that she was she was running on the road and she and she felt that the dogs were just to get up again but she she felt that the dogs were really they had a bit in her but she felt like they were they were running after she was scared they were being chased while running she was running okay she was running she wanted a place to run yes step yes step I ran into honor mouth I'm supposed to give this person the same but was John McDougal okay he's he stopped to talk to me after he knew about the incident when I was walking with their day or two later and he said that before this incident one day the week prior he was driving down French road like toward toward culvert and I don't I don't even remember John told me which dog but one of the dogs was bothering someone who was jogging and she was trying to get away from him and John drove his car in between the dog and the first didn't hit I mean he just he encouraged the dog and hollered the dog and then the dog went home so Erica get you in a minute are these what what are the breeds called mixed breed or something for these dogs I mean yeah they're not purebred I mean if they I haven't seen them but everybody they're mixed up description is a mixed breed okay it's kind of irrelevant okay and I can tell you Heather had reached out to me and one other person they were supposed to I referred them to put their concerns and writing to Sarah so that we could send a letter because at the time we didn't know and also early on with the complaints I had received there was different descriptions of the dogs each time I understand you know whether there's two hours three and also nobody was giving me a clear address of the home so that was another reason I wasn't able to do anything from the original complaints but Jeffrey do you have a question or comment what you just explained about the the complaint the past complaint I recall a month two ago we feel that that Heather Collier was a collier sorry recollection was that we didn't recall what address that was so we didn't take any action but Eric are you saying that you were involved with her on that separately it's Heather McLean to clarify not Heather Collier okay my bad sorry so Heather had contacted me and Sarah and I had with her and Lauren other party and they were going to submit their concerns in writing to Sarah so then we could get the letter sent to the address still not knowing who that was okay gotcha okay I understand right here Peter do you have comments or questions so we now is an opportunity for the complaint and Deb or the dog owners to make any final comments yes could reset your name again Ron Hemingway okay yes Ron and I'm 99% keep caring of dogs like you don't want to go in and out and I am breaking sunshine that's the the little pit bull mix she's 10 months old she keeps running up after the joggers I know this incident that you just said about six that I had to go up there she ain't gonna fight but she just keep chasing them she won't shut you know I'm trying to break her of that and I got him fairly broke but what do you mean by break not go up they're leaving others they should go by have it yeah just stop her from doing that bargain at people okay are you in are you taking any lessons on dog training I've read boutique hounds for cool that I know how to keep your dogs and your dogs as Deb said they've also found my dogs go up the side of the road and other dogs come there I don't know what happened that day I really don't but it's never ever happened before and the puppies do chase the joggers now and again I don't know why but I'm trying to stop there not break it to stop and I was in Arizona for three weeks so I don't don't dismiss onto these guys you know I'm saying so I am sorry um Erica is there also so I just I guess I just want to make a statement about dogs in general and packs and just my own experience with dogs and I've had my fair share in my own personal life of having dogs that have had problems so I also know that dogs change as they grow and mature and as a new dog gets added into a pack or another dog leaves you can you know one year your dog maybe the friendliest nicest dog and the next year with a different or they've grown up they matured more their personalities change their dog personalities change and I'm wondering Erica if that's something you know that we need to consider when we're thinking about a pack of dogs and how a pack of dogs living in a community can be a problem for the people who live in a community and what are some considerations that we as a board when we're deliberating about this should think about when we're thinking about this as a pack of of dogs. Dogs definitely behave differently when there is more than one not only the dynamics in their home but when they get into a situation as I think Ron described it that you know the one dog autumn felt the arrow growled at her she yelped and her friends came running to help right so you know we see this behavior all the time even dog days at the pool in Montpelier for the Humace idea from fight between two dogs break out every other dog in that pool comes running some of them to join in some of them to fleece it but their behavior is very different than what they would how they would behave when they're alone and so the more animals you add into this the more you increase you know the chances that there's going to be misbehavior and more of a sense of protecting their space and their property and not understanding their their boundaries I mean that's the only to know that and I know that yeah you should you should talk to and just raise your hand and I don't mean they are young dogs and they're still learning you know your your language when you talk about breaking a dog is a very different training style than what I believe them but you know the reality is is as they age they will change and potentially become more invested in wanting to you know mark their territory and as I spoke against a versus training with a fence it's the same sort of thing that you know the dog is going to be beaten when they have done something they shouldn't do that that suppresses the behavior it doesn't change the behavior and encourage them to do what's right I understand in the moment you know hitting the dog with their collar in I mean I hit my dog over the head with my cell phone when he had my pig's ear in his mouth a couple years ago you know you're trying to get them off of another animal but I do understand there was also some language afterwards saying as they were going in the house they were going to get the worst beating of their life you know that can also be an expression in the heat of the moment but I would recommend that you the training that is not done in such a way that is quote-unquote breaking an animal and I mean personally I just feel there isn't you can't no dog has a hundred percent recall they just don't and especially when you are having them out in groups like this and it's much more fun and exciting for them to run out into the road and harass people than it is to stay in their own yard you know they either need to have a physical containment system when we've already seen behavior from them that is not safe for the public do either Erica or Dr. Penny did you find that the dogs appeared to be in good health and properly nourished okay there's a brief encounter yeah yeah the one the brown dog was okay those are all right so are there any other final comments from either Deb or the dog owners or the public for that matter okay so the next thing that happens we have to make a motion and have a majority approval to either adjourn the hearing to a time and date certain to obtain additional evidence if we feel that's necessary or close the proceedings by stating that this is the final public hearing on the matter is there a motion for either one okay so Vic has made a motion that this is the final public hearing on the matter is there a second Peter okay Peter is seconded okay is there any other motion no okay so all those in favor of this motion to have this be the final public hearing say aye on the select board hi hi everyone said aye Sarah okay so now the next thing that happens is the select board has a choice we are going to do deliberation so this is where we sit together as a select board and we decide what the next steps are for this situation so we can either do it in public meaning you guys can stay here or we can do it this normally this is a special thing for dogs just so you know for this this particular type of vicious dog hearing or enter deliberative session so that's without you in which case the written decision of the select board setting forth its findings of facts conclusion of law an order for the domestic pet will be rendered in writing to the owner of the dog sent by certified mail return receipt requested within 10 days so is there do we can make a motion about that Sarah that we either do it public or okay so if we do it in private can we invite like the animal control officer to be a part of that meeting okay okay so is there a motion for that is there a motion to either do it in public or in private deliberations and in and in private we can request the presence of any what like the public animal officer or the health officer yes Jeffrey move for the deliberative session with our company okay is there a second on that okay a second victed okay is there any other person that you would like to have present dr. Penny no just Erica okay all right so all those in favor of having a private deliberation so that means that you would go home and we would present to you in writing to the owner of the dog by certified mail within 10 days a response so all those in favor of having a private deliberation with Erica present say I hi hi okay the eyes have it so we're adjourning the meeting to have deliberations right Sarah it's a journey of this meeting and then we go into a yeah a journey of the public hearing okay so we're adjourning the public hearing