 Hey, Jeremy, let's get going. We're really excited to have you on today. Jeremy Hassell-Wood is President and Founder of Fundraisers Unite. Best name ever. Just got to say. We're going to get into what you're talking about with us today, the importance of digital fundraising, hot topic. And so we're really excited to hear your wisdom and how we can navigate this. It's not even a choice, I think. It's something that we have to do. So we're going to get into that. Hey, we want to thank all of our presenting sponsors. Without you, we would not be here having our robust discussions as we do every day. Five days a week. I was telling Jeremy we're coming up on our 350th episode. And our sponsors have allowed us to be here. And so we are always, always full of gratitude for their belief in what we are doing. Again, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. My interpret co-host is not with us today, Jared Ransom, but she'll be back with us tomorrow. And so we are missing her today, but we are wishing her safe travels as she comes back from somewhere in the South. But more importantly, we have Jeremy Hassell-Wood with us. President and Founder, as I said, a friend-raiser's Unite, best name ever because I think anyone that is in fundraising oftentimes feels alone. Yes. So tell me how you came up with Fundraiser's Unite. Sure, yeah. Fundraiser's Unite came from really just my experience working for marketing and fundraising agencies that cater specifically to nonprofits. And just seeing a lack of need, especially for digital fundraising, and there seemed to be a lack of resources. No one focused specifically on digital that I could see. And so I wanted to create really a community and a membership site so that people can plug in and get resources for digital fundraising, even though it says Fundraiser's Unite, it cares more towards online fundraising and digital fundraising. So it is. It's like we're all in this together. And when we come together, we're making a bigger impact in the world. You have individuals that can make individual impact. But when we combine our superpowers, it's like that's when we really see change in the world. And that's why I created Fundraiser's Unite. So dig in a little bit more with us on this. This is a membership-based community? Yeah. So there's multiple. It is membership-based. And I created it to provide monthly training so different digital fundraising topics, whether it's how to create test plans for email or walking through a Facebook ad template, or even have a whole Giving Tuesday session on there with how to really plan and execute your Giving Tuesday. And then in addition, I have some exclusive interviews on there. And I have a lot of templates and tip sheets and downloads that people can really plug into. And it's like, if you're starting from zero, it will give you all the resources you need to build a digital fundraising program. And if you already are up and running, it's additional tips just to kind of point out those blind spots you may have with your organization. Because even myself, it's like I'm still learning from what other people are doing. So it's like, let's come together, let's share these tips. There's a community where people can share their own tips and connect with other members of the community. So I'll try to make it just this one stop where fundraisers can get together or share best practices and learn and have fun along the way. I love it. And you and I were talking about this in the Trudy Chat Chat. This is really where I think in our sector, it's kind of the missing link. Digital fundraising, especially as we are going into Q4, we've had this major impact of a pandemic. If you are not engaged in this process, you're behind. You're behind. For sure. Yeah, and I would say like, especially this last year with COVID and by the time people watch this, I may have watched this five years from now, but I'll still look at like the whole epidemic or pandemic as a shifting point in digital, hopefully. And I look at nonprofits even like restaurants who are not nonprofits, like people were exposed this time around. Like if you were a business or a nonprofit that didn't have your digital stuff together, you've been exposed and your learning curve is like so much more than the ones who are already doing it. But it's not too late. And that's a good thing about it. So, you know, I'm hoping that nonprofits will now start to engage a little bit more, learn more. And then, cause that is what the future is going to be. Not the same direct mail's going away anytime soon because it's not, but you want to position your nonprofit for the future. And that's what digital will allow you to do. So let's start off with this question. And I think it's, I never like to start off with a negative aspect, but why do we fear or we have feared this process? It seems to me that the nonprofit sector, Jared always says we're due for a disruption, but the reality is we've lagged behind. Why is that? Yeah, and that's the question Julie on the table is, I like how you position it with why they fear online fundraising. And to me, it comes down to two things. One, which I believe is the bigger issue is culture. And the second one has to do with just lack of resources. So really attacking the culture piece. If you're a newer nonprofit that maybe started up in the last five years, then digital is probably woven into your fundraising. But a lot of mid-sized and larger nonprofits that have been around for a decade plus, they've done digital or direct mail so long that that's the culture. We know what works. We know we spend money on direct mail. Here's what we can get back. And this is how we're going to be. They talk about digital. We know we need to get in digital, but it's a culture shift more so than it is a technology shift and culture is so hard to break. So until you get leadership in those roles that are willing to put a flag in the ground and say digital is important to us, then it's still gonna be slow to get there. The other piece dealing with resources, let's say there's nonprofits that have made that digital shift, talent is not cheap. So you have to look at the price to put your team together whether you're hiring internally or using consultants, it's still going to cost money to get that expertise. And the market value of somebody that knows digital to work at a nonprofit, they really have to have a heart for the work and the gratification that comes with it versus doing the same kind of work somewhere else than getting paid more. And that's the balance that you really have to strike there. So when I hear you say that, and I'm kind of chuckling because that's true, this makes me think that this is the opportunity of a lifetime for consulting relationship. Yeah, I think it could be. I think there's what the consultant piece you can tap into third party people to number one, help you start up your digital fundraising or to get better at it. And the second one is to train your existing talent because ultimately you don't necessarily want to run your nonprofit and your digital off of a consultant doing all the work for you. It's more expensive to do it that way. But if you can get the training, whether it's from a consultant or somewhere else to actually learn it, now you're able to reduce your costs as a nonprofit and really maximize your returns from your digital fundraising. But also when I say digital fundraising, I don't mean to cut out direct mail. Digital is just we want to include direct mail with it. You know, if you're doing a direct mail piece, what's that digital components that's going to work with that one? Because we don't want to just focus on one particular channel. We want these to work together because there's been countless studies that we'll show you. If you're playing in both of these channels, you're gonna see a lift overall in your giving. You know, it's so interesting. I was talking to a CEO, probably about six months ago, they operated nonprofit about $45 million budget, old. So they've been around for over a hundred years. And they have an older demographic who supports them. And one of their big fears is that they would leave behind that older demographic and they were really fearful about having patrons support them. And they're cut offline. They were thinking 55 on up. And I was like, you know, everything that I read is that that sector, that segment of our population, they're really embracing the digital world. And so not to your point, not to just cut off, you know, the snail mail piece, but I think you're underestimating your donors. What's your sense of that? Yeah, and looking at the BlackBot giving report for 2020, the average age of the digital donor, I want to say with 63. So you do have like 50, like 60 year old plus. And so we're talking average here, meaning that there's people older than 63 who are adapting to it. And it's interesting what you say because there's another nonprofit who will remain nameless. And this was really highly publicized maybe like five years ago that they actually, so we're not going to do direct mail this year, we're only going to do digital. And they made a huge shift to do that. And as a result, they lost millions of dollars. So you don't want to put all your eggs in digital. Like I'm a digital fundraising guy, but I'm not going to sit here and say put everything in digital. Like my whole thing is let's start it, let's get better at it because one day it's going to overtake it. And when I say overtake, I don't mean it's going to eliminate. We're still looking at the same BlackBot report, digital fundraising only comprises about 13% of overall individual giving. So it's still a small piece of the pie, but it grew like 20% last year. And it's been double digit growth for years. If you look at the M&R benchmark report, they based on the nonprofits that they've tracked revenue grew 30% last year. Now there's some COVID things that I'm sure have to do with this with people taking events online. But still, now that you have them online and people have given online, now you can start marketing to them online with email and with digital ads. But we have to start to shepherd these people online so that now we can have a more comprehensive fundraising program. Okay, Jeremy, I got a backup here. Yeah. What is the percentage that digital fundraising, did you say 13%? 13% correct. Wow, okay, so that's great information. So as we are looking at, and so many of us are in the budgeting period right now for 2022, we really should be looking at our revenues and setting a goal or understanding that 13%. If we have a functioning system, right? That's not like on steroids and that's not starting out, that should just be a baseline, do you think? 13%? I think so, and it's likely going to continue growing. So 13% is what it was for 2020. If we look at how 2021 will play out, it may jump to 15%. And part of me thinks that people that see these reports, they could look at this as good or bad news. They may say, well, it's only 13%. So we're just going to still focus on direct mail because that's what we're making most of our money anyways. But other people may say 13%. Wow, I thought it was smaller than that. So let's go ahead and put more into it. So to your discussion or your point about how should we budget? And every nonprofit will do this different, but if you're putting 90% of your budget into direct mail, maybe you should put less into direct mail because you're seeing that digital is starting to grow. And maybe you eke out a little bit more of that budget for digital to invest in, keeping in mind, and this is something that is also frustrating in nonprofits when they're just starting digital, when they first really heavily invest in it, you're probably not going to make that money back in the first year. But you also don't usually make that money back in the first year from a big direct mail acquisition campaign. It usually takes about 18 plus months. So let's not look at it because it's digital and we may not make our money back this year and we shouldn't do it because you're not going to do that in a direct mail acquisition program. So let's look at this as a fundraising channel that is growing versus one that is shrinking like direct mail is. Why would you invest in a shrinking program versus a growing program? In terms of increasing your investment, I'm not saying you shouldn't invest because you should, but just looking at how you're investing in those different channels. Okay, wow. Okay, so you have blown my mind with so many great ideas and just what you said in so many ways has reduced my sense of fear in making this critical investment in jump. I think one of the things that I find the most interesting is the understanding that this is not a magic bullet that you're going to have to make an investment. I love that you said that, which kind of leads me into my next question. I mean, you've given us so many great pieces of information data oriented so that we could help measure where we can, where we're going or help plan what that would look like, but where do we start? I mean, this is like to me such a huge issue. Where do you start? Yeah, and it is overwhelming. It's very overwhelming, especially if you have never done digital before, and I say that in quotes because doing digital is what people say. We need to do digital, but that can mean so many things. I mean, yeah, first and foremost though, it's like you have to have a vision. And I say this a lot when I talk to clients, it's like it all starts with the vision. It's like, what do you, if you haven't created a vision for your nonprofit, which a lot of them have, there's probably a smaller amount that haven't, you know, we want to make sure that we're creating a vision overall for our nonprofit. And then let's create a vision for our fundraising program and then our digital piece. So it's okay to have multiple visions because you want each vision to all be in sync because if you're building out your digital program and it's out of line with your overall goals and vision for your nonprofit, then you're starting it the wrong way. We don't want to start with tactics. And that's a mistake that I see a lot of nonprofits make is like, let's get an email program together. Let's do social media. Again, that's another word that's thrown around. Like what does that mean to do social media? So let's be intent and temple about what we do and let's start with a strategy instead of a tactic. So first and foremost, gosh, you've got to start with that vision. And then second, you really need to look at what your internal resources are, like what you have the ability to do in-house versus what pieces you may need to plug into. And if you are aware of even where to start, then maybe tap into some consultants and have them help you work on your plan and help identify here are the steps that you need to do. I have a program that actually walks nonprofits through that. It's called 21 Day Digital Fundries and Quick Start. But I'm not here to talk about that. I'm just throwing that out there. But it is something that can reduce like the overwhelm. And then you want to understand these different digital marketing channels. And in particular, certainly email, certainly website content, social media from a organic standpoint to digital media, which would be social media ads, pay-per-click ads, which would be your Google ads, your Google ad grants. There's so many different places to start. And there's not necessarily, well, I was gonna say there's not a bad place to start, but there probably is. But the thing is like just start, do something, but start with the strategy first. And then it's like, how do you eat an elephant one bite at a time? This is gonna be that one bite at a time with your digital program. And let's get email up and going. Let's work on our social media, fine-tuning what we wanna talk about and putting some parameters around that. Let's look at our advertising online, whether that's Facebook ads or Google ads. And let's just knock these things off one at a time. And then we have resources, whether it's internally or externally, who can keep an eye on all these things and help to manage each of these different pieces. So it's not easy, it takes time, but it's 100% necessary for nonprofits today. I know, but you know, it's so funny. You said something that really resonated, is how do you eat an elephant one bite at a time? I have a Chinese ceramic blue and white elephant on my desk. It's pretty big for that very reason. Because there's so many choices, there's so many things to do in a day, and it's really easy to get overwhelmed. And I love how you framed that, is really work on the strategy point or where you wanna go and realize that you can add these different pieces in as you have adopted them and been successful or learned or whatever words you wanna use, because it's not just a golden faucet. It's not. And it's also like understanding your donors because there's so much digital that's thrown at you so quickly. Like for example, let's say TikTok. TikTok is a great platform, but it may not be a great platform for your nonprofits. Like let's look at the demographics of who uses TikTok and let's look at the demographics of your donor. I look at nonprofits that are really heavy on Instagram. And like honestly, I don't think that's the best place for nonprofits to play. If you have a limited budget, like let's put more of that into Facebook because those people have money to actually donate to your nonprofit. Instagram, you'll get brand awareness, but they may not have the money there. And it hasn't proven out to work successfully yet. I think Instagram in five years may be a good place for nonprofits to play. So that's, I'm not saying that. Don't do anything on Instagram, but don't make that your focus of your social media. Well, I also think it's really what your sector is. I mean, if you're in the culture and arts, I think Instagram can be great because you have a lot of visual stories to tell. But let's say you're a school and you're working in the medical world where you have HIPAA laws or you have child, minor and children's laws that you have to protect. You can't put children's faces. You can't put or discuss patient outcomes. I mean, so you have to be thinking about what it is that you are trying to communicate. And it goes back to what you said, which was wonderful. Start with a strategy and not the product. And yeah, that's like for me, that's a huge, huge thing. Okay, now you've given us some really great ways. I'm encouraged to get going to start this off. I'm a small nonprofit. Okay, yay team. What are some things that we wanna steer clear of and what not to do? It's like, what not to wear? What are some things that you can talk about? Yeah, it's interesting because it's like all the things you shouldn't do are the opposite of the things that you should do. So don't start with tactics. Don't look at what's popular and say, we're gonna do this because you wanna know what's going to work for your nonprofit. And kind of to your point a moment ago, like maybe animal related nonprofits will be a great place to market on Instagram and put the images out. But there's marketing channels and there's donation channels. So if I'm marketing to an audience and I'm a animal based nonprofit, then yeah, let's do our website. Let's do Instagram, maybe even TikTok because you can get some viral videos. But TikTok, your video can get a million views on TikTok but you probably will get very few donations but you'll get brand awareness. But if I'm investing money in a fundraising program, I'm going to invest ads on Facebook because Facebook is where more of my donors live and I'll still market it across Instagram and Facebook and everywhere else. So what not to do not start with tactics. Do not invest in digital without having the support to actually execute it because another thing is nonprofits don't want to get involved with digital. It's like they keep hearing we need to invest, we need to invest so they get this really expensive maybe email system, but there's no expertise that can actually execute it or knows how to use it. And now you're tied to a big bill of technology plus even higher bill of the consultant has to actually, that you have to pay to manage that for you. So you know, those pieces. Also what not to do is this is going to sound strange. So I'm trying to think about how it works. Do not not test. So this would be like maybe a do make sure that you test do not only create one Facebook ad if you're doing Facebook ads, don't just create one. If you're sending an email, don't send just one. Always test with digital, it's so easy to test. So if you're sending one email, split your file in half and meaning if you have a thousand people send 500 version A the other 500 version B every single time you're communicating on digital you should be learning something. So a Facebook ad you can, I will create three to five different versions and maybe you're just changing the headline. It could say give today could say $50 equals X or it could be something else but make small tweaks and always learn don't just do an ad and not test anything. So those would be some kind of, I guess low hanging fruit of things not to do. You know, I would love to have you come on at a future time to just talk about A.D. testing because it seems like, and correct me if I'm wrong it seems like such a major piece that I hear consultants and experts talk about but for those of us on the other side it seems overwhelming. It seems like a duplication of work to the point where I'm like what do we look for to even learn about? And so we don't really have a lot of time but could you address that somewhat about the A.D. testing? Yeah, sure. And I think about the agencies that I work for that were direct response. You know, you could test direct mail and send out one version versus another version. The version that won last year versus let's test this one and it can be expensive. There's production fees and everything like that but from a scalability standpoint let's just amp up the numbers. Let's say you have 100,000 donors which is a lot more than maybe a smaller not probably that may have 1,000 or 2,000 donors but at 100,000 donors even if you're small you should be testing but at 100,000 donors small little incremental changes that you can make that even change your response rates or your donation rates by 3% or 5% could be tens of thousands of dollars. So and you also you can take what you learn in digital. So let's say we're testing different creative different calls to action, different images, different offers and we find one that really works and you can learn so much more quickly in digital than you can direct mail. You don't have to wait months to get the results you can find out within days or weeks and once you fine-tune that offer well now let's test this offer in direct mail because it's proven to work in digital whereas traditionally direct mail it's a creative director or someone that's like I think this might work so let's test and see if it works. You know now let's take direct mail which is still the lion's share and let's go with a message that's proven to work in digital and let's test that against the creative that has worked and just see if it works. Maybe it will, maybe it won't but at least there's data to support your test. Okay. When you're talking about AB testing do you have a percentage, a percent to total of what you should of your group that you should be testing? You know honestly I'm like I'm a 50-50 kind of guy and you can do multivariate testing if you want to do like 33, 33, 33, 33. So I'm not a statistician but I can't even say that word. So I'm not even a statistician by any make or mark but at a bare minimum like 50-50 that's why A and it's B let's just put 50% into them and if you look at the file sometimes you can have within that 50-50 the randomness can weight certain sides of it different than others and I don't again I don't do statistics so I'm not necessarily as invested in that piece from an emotional perspective I just want to get tangentially like is this messaging working? Is A outperforming B and having some kind of statistical significance that you can base that on? Interesting. Which I would say 95% or better if we're looking at statistical significance. Okay, okay. Well there's so much to delve into and I think too that as we look at these different aspects of the tools that we can be using the point of this is the more educated we become the more we can anticipate stronger results and we can migrate our, that whole thing go to where your donors are reach your donors where they are. I think this digital piece of it is speaking, right? It's screaming at us really it's screaming at us so we've got to be looking at that. Wow, I've learned so much this time has like blown by I haven't told you to go by fast. Yeah, like so quick. It does, it goes by really, really quickly. Jeremy Hazelwood president and founder of Fundraisers Unite really a cool website and I really enjoyed looking at all the different things that you had going on. I love that you've made this a membership portal. I would encourage everyone to take a look at it and see what's going on. We're going into this Q4 period where we all know in the nonprofit sector this is where the rubber meets the road we have amazing opportunities and I think this digital component it's where we need to be. Yeah. We really need to be. Jeremy thank you so much for joining us it's been great. Again I'm Julia Patrick CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. Jared Ransom CEO of the Raven Group also known as the nonprofit nerd will be joining us tomorrow. Again thank you to our presenting sponsors. We have so many of you who joined us from the very beginning now more than a year and a half ago and we are eternally grateful for your support. Again as we always say if you weren't here we wouldn't be here. So thank you so much. We've launched a new show called Fundraising Events TV check us out. Really interesting. It's all about the fundraising event side. Our host on that is I always call him Jason champion or Jason Ransom is Jason champion. He's been on our show before talking about a lot of different things around fundraising events and it's really an amazing opportunity to learn about what the new trends are get new ideas and so check out fundraisingevents.tv. Another great episode. Jeremy you've totally inspired me to look at my own digital communications in a different way. Cool. Thank you Julie for having me. It's an honor to be here. So thank you for this. Well it's been a lot of fun and as we end every episode we want to remind everyone to stay well so you can do well. Come back and join us tomorrow everyone.