 Thanks for staying with us. It's still the breakfast on plus TV Africa right now We're looking at the fact that the court has stopped NBC from imposing fines on broadcast stations I guess this morning is mr. Shegoon shock with on chairman Accountability condor. Good morning and welcome to the program sir Thanks for having me Condor and transparency network. I know yes transparency watchword accountability transparency, okay now NBC has said okay, not NBC the court has said NBC cannot impose fines on Broadcast stations anymore. It used to be a very very worrisome thing But first of all, let me just hear what you feel about this new development I The logic behind it is simple and basic Even though I am not a lawyer. I know From my interactions with the legal process And from my interactions with my friends in that profession that one of the most fundamental natural laws of justice Fundamental is the right to pay Harry And I've been I've been told by my lawyers in many instances that the strongest of cases No matter how strong the case of maybe, you know, a prosecution or whatever might be it falls flat on its face if The person that is being accused of having done some sort of wrong Is not giving the opportunity to defend himself or herself, you know so this this right to pay her in is a fundamental principle in law and What happened what what we found as a culture in in lawmaking in Nigeria over the years is that? Regulatory agencies regulatory authorities law enforcement authorities Sometimes are given powers that actually Judicial powers they are given powers to adjudicate in a matter and rule on the guilt or otherwise of Parties that they're engaging with, you know, so it's not just the NBC So the same would apply to the Nigeria communications Commission, you know the central bank of Nigeria Even Agencies like last month federal city commission cases similar to this have been taken to court and the courts I remember there was a court ruling In this regard concerning last month rose safety, you know, that some a couple of years back where it was clearly stated that You as a law enforcement traffic control Institution cannot impose fines on people without a court If the declaring the guilt of those people, you know, and if you if you check what happens now with last month There are courts. They have either mobile costs that move around or they have courts in their premises So they take you if you if you if you Committed traffic offense. They will take you to that court They will impound your vehicle which even is illegal anyway But, you know, they take you to their premises and then you are made to face a court in most instances Those courts tend to turn out to be kangaroo courts But at least they they they maintain keep up the appearances of following the Properties of the rule of law, you know, so this same principle is what the NBC what the court has moved on Which regards to the NBC now and I think it's great. So Without that being in place what you find is that the NBC becomes all-powerful and Can you know just with by the simple wave of a pen? Actually, you won't take away the license of the broadcast organization and this is not healthy for democracy So I think this is a fantastic move towards deepening Democratic process, you know in Nigeria, of course, as you know the media the press the media electronic print Even the social media You can regard all of them put together as members of the 40th state of the realm and if you have a station where they cannot Conduct their business Without fear or favor then you are seriously undermining democracy And I think this ruling is a major step towards deepening our democratic experience as a country Stations subscribed to some set of laws Which was were set by the? NBC to regulate their activities So if you're you put pen to paper and say I accept it's like terms of agreements Which we don't read anyway, but terms and conditions that you have accepted that if I do this I'll be liable like this and that don't you think it's It's getting too far to say that they should never do this anymore. What will they use now to to To hold the people accountable for what they do the broadcast stations Yeah, I think it's an important point you make and and it's good for me to clarify I also know that there are media houses print electronic and otherwise that Go beyond their bounds and that acts irresponsibly that Put out news without confirmation for example without fake news that put out inciting material. We saw that Happen a lot during election cycles in this country 2015 2019 So absolutely there is a need to regulate there's a need for somebody for that to be some sort of body that will ensure that people conduct their businesses as they ought to within the rules and That guide that profession So the idea is that the you know people should just behave as they like But the idea is not that we should not should be able to like however What this ruling is saying and what I am saying in the process of agreeing with the ruling what I'm saying is The NBC cannot be the party that will declare the guilt of The early part party in this case, you know, so if a media house is the NBC believe that a media house Has has broken some of these codes and regulations they have to have some third party independent third party to adjudicate and Confirm that indeed in looking at the details of the events surrounding that man that the rules have been broken and Then once you now find that the rules have been broken That is when the fines that are imposed that are declared or the Defined in the court of conduct or in the you know in the in the laws Serving up the NBC can then be triggered. So for example, you know that murder If somebody commits murder today, you know, the police doesn't just go there and say you committed murder and then take the person I'm gonna kill them. You don't take the person if they somebody steals you catch even if you catch them in the act You don't just take them and take them to prison The law is clear that said that stealing is a crime murder is a crime But the law in saying that stealing is a crime a murder is a crime has also defined the punishment for stealing after murder You know So what will then happen is that the police will take that person to court and the court will declare the guilt or otherwise Of that party if the party is found to be guilty based on evidence presented then the the fines and Consequences declared in the law will then be imposed by the judge and I think that is what this judge is now saying So if the NBC believes that it's TV station or a newspaper or whatever as you know contraband its Regulations should take them to court and then the court will declare whether they're guilty or not If they are guilty that's fine that is involved in the court can then become applicable And it is the court that will even declare that fine So so I think the idea behind this is simple The NBC cannot be a law enforcement officer or a regulator and also be the judiciary That is declaring guilt or innocence, you know, so again, I say fantastic ruling It's great for democracy Well to answer what you're saying presiding judge justice Rita, you know when she did a better statement yesterday She said the NBC is not allowed to have administrative legislative and judicial powers I was a trinity So they're not allowed to do that but now doesn't that Kind of like limit them like in so many ways, especially for the fact that people say they don't really They can't really say the courts are credible That's where we are now in Nigeria. Sometimes you get in fact everybody goes to court But you just never know which way is gonna go and that the proper investigation will be done And the person who supposed to be on top will be on top. So is it possible that now? People go to court and they are not even credible because now that's what you're telling me that if someone, you know If there's an air in station or anyone They have to go to court and it's the court. That's you know, is the independent adjudicator here Can we even trust the credibility that even mr. Shagon said mr. Shokuton said that sometimes they go to court and these cuts are kangaroo cuts So I mean societies that function all over the world all of this was clearly defined and the Hope in all of these societies is that as you progress as a people You improve the functioning and the credibility of all your various institutions and the judiciary is not different So at the stage of our existence today We do know that things Judiciary that raises a lot of questions and raise a lot of dust and they give judgments that are Sometimes incredible, you know, they are completely illogical and even lawyers Professionals in the field will question some of those judgments, but unfortunately, we don't have any other place to go to We cannot therefore on the basis of that Resort to self-help. We cannot we can't resort to self-help. We still have to depend on the court So the the prayer will be that as we in the civil society space like the media rights agenda For example, that to this case support the prayer and the intention must be that as we are Holding Operators and regulators accountable law enforcement agencies accountable We must also buy the same measure and by the same token hold the judiciary accountable We must continue to demand that Judgments that are read out of judgments that are given Align with the spirit and the letter of the laws that on the basis of those judgments So they work you in the media must also continue to hold, you know, all of these players accountable You must, you know highlight and spotlight stories where something funny or to what seems to have happened So when we as a society collectively all all players within the society within the space begin to hold for example Judiciary accountable hopefully with time then things will improve. So you have been National judicial counsel, for example, we're supposed to adjudicate when the judiciary itself is found wanting You can write petitions, you know and go there and demand that, you know, do you know that judgments can be reviewed? We never really see, you know, anything being done about it. Most times you go to you go to, you know, a higher court and It's still the same Because Nigerians, as a culture, we still have a long way to go in understanding that we have rights that we can demand for We lead things to God too often Yeah, but my concern, okay a funny thing not my concern now A funny thing is that After the judgments of the various states that had cases in court Everybody was applauding the president that he didn't meddle into their face of the judiciary Like it is something that everybody was expecting that he goes there Influences judgments for the people that he likes that is where our judiciary is where you will be thanking a third party That should be independent of that the judiciary for for being independent I was just looking at it and it was a shame to me because why would you even mention the president? He's not in the first place supposed to meddle into their face of that But that aside, what would you propose as we wrap up now because time is really fast-paced as we wrap up What do you propose? Should be done. Should we have all these cases go to the regular court? Or should we have like something that is had in the in the sports Sector a court of arbitration for sports. I think the college CS Should we have something like that for the media or should we go to the regular courts to get these Problems or frictions between NBC and the media houses done I mean there are arguments on both sides of the divide, you know the arguments in support of having a special court The arguments in support of having a special court Usually revolves around the efficiency the fact that if you go to if you set up a special court Then cases can be heard much faster because they're not dealing with any other case So for example in the usual traffic violations the traffic caught the mobile traffic caught that is all they do So you get your judgment there and then you go in you present your case and right there and then the job You know, so that's that's an argument in support of special thoughts and you might say maybe that will work in this case however, I don't see any agency particularly in cases of Violations of the broadcast court and therefore I would suggest that these cases should be taken to regular courts and Such that you don't continue to create in a fish administrative Here we are talking about cost of governance, you know as a country So, you know if you set up a special court that comes with a whole baby of expenses For example, and so some might argue that yes, that's a necessary cost for speedy delivery of justice But I think that that can also be done if you use the Traditional but I think that what we should just do is to continue the the debate and the fight So for the credibility of our judiciary to continue to hold them accountable Continue to push all of the mechanisms that are available to hold them and ensure that they do what they're supposed to do We simply do not have enough Nigerians Writing petitions, for example Petition writing is a basic and standard thing in most societies that work But you never hear it here. If you write a person who want you are don't do it or if you do it, you know This might happen that might happen. So I think that just as a country We need to develop a culture where we are deliberating as just members ordinary members of society We're deliberately holding All of these agencies to account Okay. Well, this is where we'll wrap it up with you We thank you. Mr. Shagun Shokuton and happy new year is in order. Yeah, so we haven't seen you on the program the whole of this year The whole of this year. It feels good to say the whole of this year Happy new year to you Happy new year Thank you so much for being a part of the program today Okay, Mr. Shagun Shokuton is the chairman accountability condor and a transparency network Who was talking to us on the fact that the NBC? NBC's wings have been clipped that they cannot just habitually Find broadcast stations for any kind of violations This need to be taken to regular courts and then whatever is needed will be done This eventually is where we're wrapping up today's show a final word from you No final words Just be happy take take each day at a time It's the 18th of January So you still have time to still put all of your thoughts all of the ideas was we talked about ideas this morning and our port was The court basically was there's no shortage of remarkable ideas What's missing is the will to do them and that's my set garden So just make sure that you have that will to push for what you want Whatever you want you can achieve it So make sure that you have the will the goal the zeal to go out there and just put yourself out there and get all That's you guys are quiet for you. I'm buying her a microphone and make her a motivational speaker Well, that might be in order but maybe in a few years Okay, that's all from me. The stables of the breakfast on plus TV Africa. My name is Nyam Ghul Aghgaji My name is Rumeh Paulsen. We'll see you tomorrow. Thank you for joining our program today. Have a good day You