 Ydw'n gwerth o'r gwirio ymlaid, mae yw Ddiolch. Am yw Iwer Ddodd, Warren Rockley, a'n gweld rwy'n goch i ti hynny. Dwi'n goch. mae'r parwod o'r gwirio a'r parwod a'r parwod, yn gwneud o gyrddol. Rwy'n goch a'r parwod o'r gwirio ymlaid. Mae'r parwod o'r gwirio'i neud o gyllideb, ac hefyd yn bwysigol datblygiadu gwirio. yw'r cyfunion o'r bwysig yn ysgrifennu i'w'r llwyddoedd. Mae'n gwybod, mae'r amser ar ystod am yr EFF a'r angen a'r angen y dyma, mae'n ddiwrnod i'r introdd, felly rydyn ni'n gwybod i'r gwneud rwy'n eisteddau yn ymwyaf. Rwy'n gwneud cymaint gennym yma mae'r llwyddoedd yn ni, a'r unrhyw yng Nghaer Llyfriddol yn eu gwahane. Fy llwyddoedd yn gweithio'r hunig i ddwy ar ddiwrnod hefyd. Mae'r llwyddoedd, First thing you notice apart from being tall and orange is that you notice how approachable he is first. I was very fortunate to have competed against him in the picking and impression'd alongside him very briefly. He was done in about 2 minutes and I was about 20 minutes, so very briefly we were alongside him. From the very first time I met him, never once has he made me or anybody else feel inferior. Yn ymwneud? Mae wedi bod yn gwneud o'r sleid. Yn ymwneud. O, mae yna ymwneud. OK. Yn ymwneud. Yn ymwneud. OK. Yn ymwneud. Yn ymwneud yw 10 munud? Yn ymwneud. Yn ymwneud. Yn ymwneud. O, mae'r gwneud. Yn ymwneud. There we are. I am going to talk about some physical security things and basically is showing keys in public why that is a bad idea. I am a member of two, that's the Open organisation of lock pickers and we open locks as a hobby, as a sport anwill there is a lock picking tent where you can try that out yourself and then the lessons in introduction stuff and games and fun. Yna'na wneud yw'r wylltof heal yn y dyneb, ond nid yw mae'r antrall yno, fe yna, ond nid yw, ond ti wedi'i ddweud y cwg. Oni, mae'n gweld sy'n iawn. Yna'n rhoi, mae'n rhoi, rhai'u'r antrall mae'n gwneud y pwysig a'r ym daddyf. Pan yw hynny, mae seleckonn am y dyna gwrodi'r antrall. Yna yna rhai'u gwneud. Mae'n rhoi, rhai'u'r antrall mae'n rhoi ar y gallu'n gwneud. Proses dyna'r llumio. A dyna'r llumio'n ddysgol o'r amser yn y gwbl, ac nid yw'n mynd i'r gael. A dyna'r gael yn cyfathol, yn ei ddweud o'r gael o'r llumio. Ac mae'n ddweud y ddweud am ddweud. Felly, dyna'r ddweud yna'r ddweud o'r llumio yn Arnum. A'r llumio'n ddweud yna'r llumio yn ei ddweud o'r gweithio y Google Earth. Rydw i'n fflaen nhw'n fideb o'r fideb. I can't see that many people but that's become... This service is offered by an insurance company, so at least if your house does get robbed, they have to pay for it. So that kind of makes sense. I don't know where you guys live but in my neighbourhood it's easier to find a locksmith than a 3D printing outfit. But maybe that will change over time. But then again, the technical part. You saw the 2K key, put it on a spinny thingy and basically it took some 3D image of it. That's kind of cool. And they kind of had to do that because it's a Belgium outfit. And Belgium is in Europe. And Europe is not in America. Unlike the opinion of some Americans. Because in America you have basically two brands. Slake, Kwikset and then it's expensive. So in a normal residential area you see two brands. So if you're in America, you'll have services like this. There you can just take a picture of your key, just put it on a white background, take a picture, mail it to an outfit and for $5 they ship that key to your home. Well personally I would use a different address for that. But technically, yeah, what the hell not. I mean, cool. You can have your key shipped to your house. A spare key. And they actually made some cool software for it. You see a scan of what they do. They look at the key, they figure out what the brand is and they measure the depth. So they don't just copy your key. Because you see that first cut on the left, that cut is deeper. So that has some wear and tear. And probably the copy you get through the mail will work better than the key you had. Because that will be cut to code. Which is kind of cool. Maybe not for a security perspective. But I think that's kind of cool. And it's neat software. And actually it is not that new. Because these companies, they give you a copy of your keys. And other companies incorporated the key copying by picture in their business plan. Actually, how they do business. This is an outfit that I believe it's in Manhattan. And it's called Outbox. What they do, they show up at your door physically and take your physical mail, your snail mail. And they take it away. And they scan it. So they make your physical mail digital and they mail it to you. They probably weed out the spam, I don't know. So you can reach your physical mail even when you were brought. So they show up to your door and get your mail. And in order to do that, they need your key. So this same deal, just take a picture of your key. And they have several different scenarios for it. Or if your mail boxes out your gates without a lock, well they just grab it. And if you have a locked mailbox, well we need that key. If it's inside your gates, we need that key. If it's a door slot, we don't bother. You get a different box and we'll close that. And if it's a garage, give us that. But they will not go into your door because that would, well, it's America. I mean guns. So they probably don't want to get sued that easily. So there are companies that actually do this as a business. It's kind of cool. It's not really new the concept of taking a picture and making a physical key from it. This is from a couple of years ago, some students in America, they took a camera. And a quite decent lens. And they started snapping pictures. You see in the big picture, there's a terrace. And there's a table. On that table is a book. On that book there's a couple of keys. And this is blown up with that lens. That's quite far. Of course it's staged, but it works. And if you know your locks and if you know your American keys, then you instantly recognize this as a quick set. Because the peculiar shape of the head of the key, that's always the same on a quick set. But if you know that's a quick set, you know exactly how this head is supposed to look. So even if you take a picture of an angle, add an angle of that key, you can distort that picture of that key until it actually has the correct shape. And if that head has the correct shape, then the rest of the key also. That makes sense, right? So then you can just decode it cut to code and you have a working key. Which is kind of cool. But then they won't work. So yeah, showing keys. That works with other keys as well. This used to be, and well, kind of still is, the key to the German police cuffs, because they're key to life. Which, as a security point of view, you go like, what, they key to life? Well, yeah. And they kind of must be, because if you get arrested in Germany, or anyone else for that matter, and that police officer cuffs you, takes you to the station, signs off and gives you to another officer, it's kind of neat that he can open these locks also. That's kind of cool. So it's quite normal that for a regular police officer that every country has a key to life system on their handcuffs. This picture was taken in the Netherlands at Haar, I think. And this is a 3D printed one. That's a copy of the original. And Ray, that's a fella from SS Def, which is basically a tool in Germany. He knows his handcuffs. He has an extensive collection of them. He walks on that side, he saw police officers, and of course he saw handcuffs of those police officers, and he said, that's a lift. That looks exactly like the one we use in Germany. Could it be their key to life? So he went to that police officer, and good sir, can I try this key on your handcuffs? And he said, sort of, and turned his back to him. Turned his back to him. Well, this is not the ultimate high-res picture of a key, but you can see it's a high-low, high-low, you can see-ish what the combination is. Maybe you cannot decode it from this picture, but you can compare it to that one. And that looks kind of alike. So afterwards, well, he approached the guy again, and then he was okay with trying it. Well, yeah, that key opened. So the handcuffs for the Dutch and the German handcuffs for the police are the same. So if you have this picture, which you can download from that URL, that's the file you're dumbing your 3D printer, and then it'll work. So it works. So showing your key, because that's a handy place, you can grab it, but yeah, other pieces can grab pictures out of it and do interesting stuff with it, so it's cool. Look at this typical clean desk environment. You see a lot of crap, but I see keys. And there's a tiny little coin besides those keys. But that's funny, because if you snap a picture of that coin with those keys and print it out, and print it out on scale, and you know the scale because you know that coin, well, see, that's the same size. So if you go totally kindergarten on that and start cutting quite neatly with some metal at the back and cut the metal as well, it doesn't have to be brilliant metal, but just do that, with some luck that'll fit in, and if it's shitty enough luck, that'll actually open it. So leaving your keys about, no, not a good idea. Also, if you're a reporter and you manage to find a scoop saying, you can buy a key to the subway system of New York, the master key, so it opens everything, so not just getting in for free, but technical cabinets as well, so you can shut stuff off, which is, well, basically the story was, this shouldn't be the case, people are selling this luck, terrorism and God knows what, and this is the key. And just in case that picture is not high-res enough, they, and they put it on a background with a known scale. So, yeah, that should be ample to reproduce that key. And they keep on doing this. Another story, right in America, sorry, they do media a lot. This is a gas pub key, so the key to the actual physical machine. Well, the key to light for a certain area or certain brand. I'm not terribly sure about that. But the idea is, if you go to any machine that takes an ADM, and then you put your number in, well, you can skin that, at least you used to. So you can put extra readers on it and make some plastic moldy, so it takes your card before it gets to the actual machine. But if you can get into that machine, you can put your crapware everywhere. I mean, you can put your evil hardware in the machine. It looks neat, because it looks like it's your original machine, because it is. So, let's take a look at this clip. Let's bring in NBC Bay Area's investigative reporter, Vicky Nguyen. Vicky seems uncomfortable about the moldy key, so it's become a box of parts. We were surprised to watch the part of the key to the kingdom. It is a problem that is a problem that is a problem that is a problem that is a problem that is a problem that is a problem that is a problem that is a problem that is a problem that is a problem that is a problem that is a problem that is a problem that is problem that is a problem that is a problem that is a problem but is a problem that is a problem that is a problem that has a problem that is a problem that isn't a problem and this is said to have a problem not something that I need access to to reveal the criminals and are in prison at the moment and place for murder. And then they're all on the hook. In my gear, a new bridge to enable dealing with your crime ddaf i'r blang i'r ord. Ac rwy'n credu'r 11 USA. A rydw i chi'n rhaid i chi'n cael ei ddarparu. Rydw i'r mewn cyhoedd ysgolion mewn meycanic, ysgolion mewn cyhoeddau mewn cyhoeddau, nes y modd o'r ysgolion yn Newyork, ac rydw i'n meddwl i'r ceisio ar y gas pomf. Rydw i'n meddwl i'r ceisio ar y chylo'r mwyn. Dyna'r cwisio'r cyntaf, ond rwy'n gweithio'n meddwl, a rwy'n credu i ddweud yn gweld yn ffodol, ond rwy'n gweithio'n meddwl yn gweithio'n meddwl. Ond rwy'n gweithio'n meddwl o'r ddweud o'r ddweud o'r ddweud o'r ddweud. Rwy'n gweithio'n meddwl. Dw i'r ffaiwr, yn dweud o'r holl, a'r holl yn ddweud, Iw melted suspension gyda gw And it's not that handy if you have all the keys to the city because then you need an extract truck So what they do So what they do They don't key like all buildings Cause everybody would just walk into their neighbors place So what they do They take tiny little boxes Tiny faults ..And the key to the building is in that fault and the key to that fault is with the fire system So, the firemen have a couple of keys, not the whole set of the whole kingdom, but just a couple. And basically they become the keys to the kingdom. This is an ex-Luxmouth who used to make those keys and well when he retired he said, ah, I can sell those, eBay, 150. Cool. So again, media went berserk. It's like terrorism and stuff and evil and it kind of is. Audio. Well, you kind of know where this is going. So they print the pictures, but actually they did think a bit, just a tiny. They contacted the Luxmouth and asked the Luxmouth, well I think it was a key duplication service, but he called himself a Luxmouth and they asked him, is it any problem if we print those pictures? The Luxmouth was like, I never cut keys from a picture. Well, can't be done. So let's run the article with pretty straight on pictures, white background, visible, I mean totally do. And of course the way the media works, this story gets picked up by other outlets and they run the same pictures and put more info in there. So the left one, sorry, Empire State, which is cool. Yeah, what you can do, what you shouldn't do, what's the problem is, traffic lights in New York, all the traffic lights, everything green, everything red, everything not working. Chaos. There's a fireman service key which opens, oh, we've seen that one before. So basically the price went up because it used to be 27 and if you buy the five, it's 150. So inflation, you know. And there's a fire alarm box so you can set your alarm or kill the alarm. And you shouldn't really show those keys in public because now the world has them. It's a problem. Not showing keys in public. Cool, we like these guys. And one of our residential trolls, you see it right there, in a weird suit. And he convinced a member of teching, that's the hackerspace. He was like, so you got a new lock to your hackerspace? You're sure that's a good lock? Because we have a lock picker in our group. And he can take a look at the keys and figure out if it's a good one. So he sent this picture. Are we being a hackerspace? Let's see what we can do. So, well, you see this picture and you can basically draw the shape of... Oops, sorry. You can draw the shape of that key. So it will not fit in the lock. I mean, if the keyway is that wide, then maybe. So that's not going to fit. But the shape is the correct key shape. So if you put that on a key duplicator, here, of course. Which not everybody agrees with the lock to them. And 90 copies or something like that? 50 at first. We kept it to the original. Yeah, and then they were like, well, now we have a new lock. So you can't get in our building anymore. And I was like, who supplied those locks? And that's... But then I became a member and I even got a discount because they didn't need to give me a key. So it's all good fun. I mean, we love them to death, seriously. Okay, close to the room. And not just that, that for some weird reason, which I don't get, you could not just buy the keys, you could buy the locks. I was like, eh? So I don't get that story, but I don't really care. I just want to see. Can we actually grab enough info of moving pictures to make working keys? I can also make a line mussel and we'll begin at the end of the story tonight. So please, and what's in the search? I'm going to use a message that's in the paper. I'm going to test the words. I'm going to follow them. I'm going to ask if you can do anything you can do on the best for you in the building. And I'm going to go on and on and on. Okay? We managed to lift a couple of stills from that video. This one is not totally clear, but probably enough. That's even better. That's nice. If you look at the head of that key, it's a BKS, which is cool, because that has known depth. You know what the possible depths are of your cut. You know which sizes and everything. We kind of guesstimate the keyway, because we can look at it, and it looks like a standard BK one. We tried that, and we kind of started looking at what is enough. We came up with this picture. This is the key we made at Eidhoven. We cut this key, so we presumed this is the key to all the Belgium speedcamps. But then we have a problem, because I kind of want to check that. But there were rules, like you said in the introduction. Though you're not allowed to pick a lock that's not yours, or that you don't have explicit permission from the actual owner to pick. Technically, this is not picking, but that's a kind of is. I'm pretty sure we won't get permission to actually try this from the actual owner. So we sourced a speedcam, and it is. This is the key that opens all the Belgium speedcamps. So maybe we shouldn't show a picture or a video. Seems to be enough to make a key from it, or a copy from it. But having actual possession of that key for a couple of seconds, that's the holy grail. Because then you can do all sorts of stuff. There are some protections, some security in place to block that. One of the main protections is a restricted key profile. That means that the piece of metal that you stick in your lock has a weird shape. And that shape can be protected by copyright. So you're not allowed to do that, or you get copyright police on your outfit, and then, well, you can't do that. So if nobody's allowed to make that exact key, you can't buy it because it doesn't allow. It doesn't exist except from the supplier. And the official supplier will go like, why do you need that lock? Why do you need a key? So that's not going to happen. So a restricted key profile, basically it's a piece of metal, right? So we know how to copy keys. You just get a feeler there, and a cutter there, and it will cut that. This machine is an easy entry. It's for a hobbyist, it's quite expensive, it's about five grand. And what this one does, it doesn't duplicate the cuts of your key, but the other side. So it takes slugs of brass, which you can buy in this configuration. There's a nice smiley on there because we like friendly keys. And what it does, it, instead of on this side, instead of, so this is more close-up, so it actually makes a blank key, that key. But there are also keys that don't even use this technique. So they have turning things and stuff like that. But then there are other methods to duplicate stuff, if you only have a split-second possession of that, well, not a split-second, but let's say a minute, of that key. Tin soldiers, yes. If you take a key and put it in a soft material, it'll leave a mark. If you choose your material right and time it a bit good, two-component stuff or whatever, you can put, you can make a mold that way. And even with, that's an asa abloy, that's quite hard to mill. But you can, if you have a mold and just put some tin in there, that'll be a shitty key, shitty as in it won't be sturdy, but you don't need that much sturdiness to actually turn your key. There are sets sold, and that's quite James Bondi, because this one works with clay. So you put a clay in there, you put some clay in a mold and press your key in there and you take it out. And that's only 20 seconds, if you prepared it correctly. And then you have all the time in the world to from that mold produce a working key. That works even on weird shapes keys. Because at the top that's the original, at the bottom that's the copy. And if your mold is good, and even if you fucked this up, you can retry because you have a working mold. And you can retry because you can remelt that copy. That's kind of cool. So that works on quite nifty keys. And if the tolerances of your key, of your lock are better, then you need, well, better clay. And probably you will not use clay at quite early stage of the process. So you need some two-component thingy. The stuff that your dentist used to make impressions from your teeth, that's a two-component thingy. That's a two-component gel, something that hardens quite quickly. It's perfect for this, but it's quite expensive. So befriend a dentist. That's a pro tip. OK. So showing keys in public is a piece of Rob Gronghraib. And people from the Netherlands know this guy, and probably way beyond those borders. This is the Dutch, well, I think he's the best-known hacker in the Netherlands. Founder Rex's role, did some, well, he did tons of stuff. Look him up if you're not familiar with this guy. He's a hacker. He probably knows security, right? Let's take a look. You're a super-secret nuclear facility. It's a bunker, but still, I mean, it's supposed to be a secret. We've seen this still. What's wrong with this picture? It's out of focus. That's not the actual key. It's not the key. It is not. But you didn't know that when you looked at the clip. The tension was still there, or some people didn't know that. I mean, the tension was still there. It took nothing away from the story. You could still tell that story. Just show a different key. So it's perfect security. It's a bit of obscure, but who cares? This works. They still ran the story. They still have their shot. Perfect. So perfect security. I really like that. Other options are for not showing your key. This is a company in the U.S. that sells a, basically a shell, that you can put your keys in and it'll slide out. So if you're not using your keys, you just see a metal box with nothing sticking out so you can't take pictures. At some point you have to take it out. Otherwise it won't work. That's the neat idea. And what they do, so there you see the bare metal of it. So what they do, they produce a blank that you can take to your own locksmith. He can make the copies. But you need that blank. So the keyway has to fit. And there they went wrong. They send us a picture of the key. All of them. And, well, the fine print does say for added security, even more secure, cover the tip of the cups of your key, but that shouldn't be added security. You're supplying a service that adds security. That's what they sell. They sell a thing that makes it harder to take pictures of your key. So that is added security. You shouldn't ask extra stuff to do this. So at least it shouldn't be fine print. It should be the procedure to make pictures. Make sure we can't see your cuts, right? Even our users start to understand that this is a bad idea, right? Well, some of them start to grasp the idea that this might be less than optimal. That's quite a long time ago. Well, does it say? Well, not when I took that picture. So why would it be a good idea to celebrate the fact that you got a new house and a new key that goes with it and dump that on Twitter? So there's a guy who mailed me last week and he said, I started this. Yep, there he is. I think he started the website, please break in. Please break. We live in India. He basically started looking at Twitter pictures of people who do this. So you have the picture of the front door mostly and you know their Twitter feed. So for some people it's quite easy to figure out where they actually live from their Twitter feed. Yeah, nothing, yeah. It's a technical conference, of course they fucked it up. So actually there are some pictures of not just the key, but this is what my house looked like. And I kind of live in this area, so I'm pretty sure with some Google Street View foo. Yeah, well he blurs that out, but Twitter doesn't. So yeah, if you click through you get to the dirty bits. Come on guys, this is wrong. And I think the learning curve of actually learning that this is wrong shouldn't be just steep because they robbed your house. I mean a bit earlier would be more optimum. And like I said before, that picture we took of the book with the keys on, that was from far, far away. But at the moment cameras are everywhere. I mean most of you have a mobile phone and most of those have pretty high depth cameras on them. And well there's one. I mean you can snap pictures with it, but even video we saw from video it works. So maybe if you use your key, it's the same as punching in your pin code. I mean if you put your pin code, it's hard to basically shield at the bits and nobody else can see it. That's basically what you should do with keys also. Because this camera is everywhere. I mean if you look in London, I mean I'm not even talking about handhelds, but I mean they're everywhere. And then there's Google Glass. So everybody was walking around. Well now you see it every now and then and you might kick them for it, but in a couple of years everybody will have something like that and contact lenses will do the same, so you can't even see it. So it's a problem. Okay one more fail and I'll let you guys go. The DJ will come in shortly. This is the design of the master key of the prison system. The arrival of that prison. So like I was saying. So security can be hard, security can be easy, but it's definitely quite easy to fuck it up. I'll be taking questions now. Thank you. And he's gone. Come on. If there's any questions I'm pretty sure. I believe we have a mobile mic thingy. I'm still here. I have no idea if anybody raises his hands now for a question. Do we have questions? There is. Could somebody throw a mobile mic out there? Okay. There's a mic. I'm not supposed to smoke here. Hello, nobody aware who? Do you foresee key technology changing in a way that will make these attacks more difficult than if so, how? That technology has changed already. There are several techniques that a key, well, a lock manufacturer can use to, well, not render these techniques impossible, but make them way, way more difficult than they are now. But you only see those in the higher segment, which means more expensive, which mostly means companies. So in a residential area like you and me, well, not me because I'm a lock nerd, I have a stupid expensive lock. I know what locks you have. Of course you know. I have an abloy protect. I think it's that secure that I can't even tell that. And more people have that. So that's a decent lock, but that's expensive. So yeah, I mean you can have moving elements in your key, some other weird stuff, and a lot of that is not really snake all, but it's copyright protection. But some of them actually work and will make this technique, well, not really, but infinitely more harder. And so yeah, lock manufacturers know what to do against it, but it's a matter of costs for the consumer. There's a question up here in front. There's a mic from a guy in a weird circle. Hi, stage. Hi. Question. You showed a lot of physical keys. But isn't the future a digital key? It could be. But Bluetooth locks. Yeah, but could possibly go wrong. Well, you're in an IT conference security thingy. You could probably do the math. Well, yeah, I mean you see a lot of lock manufacturers like in IT. We have a system and the system works and oh fuck security, let's bolt that on. And you see that happening in the physical world also. So you see normal keys, normal ish, and they bolt some RFID thingy on, which of course we know is super secure. And well, but then again, if you're, if you have a lock at a facility that you care about and you clearly do, otherwise there would be a lock on there, how do you want it to fail? Do you want it to fail open or fail close? Well, if there's burglar and the system goes down, fail close. Yeah, but if the building is on fire and the batch doesn't work anymore, I think, yes, IT building electrical systems, whatever, batteries, yeah, it could be cool. It's definitely cool, but is it secure? And not just security in a security sense, but in a safety sense. I work at a company who does electricity and high voltage stuff. Tiny electronics don't play well in that environment. So, yeah, we have batches and well RFID type of things, but the official back door that, well, not the back door, but there's always a way to have a physical key to get in. Even for a firefighter or whatever or the system goes totally black, you can still get in. So I think there will always be a need for actual physical keys without any pure mechanical keys without any electronic interference. And if you need extra layer of protection, well, I would say cameras or people with guns, dogs, whatever, back into the physical realm. That's my opinion. But I'm a lock nerd, so I like locks. Any more questions? There's a question over there. I see a hand in the fog. There's also one over there, so I have no idea what this fog was first, but we'll get there. I'm moving very short distances, Joss. Okay. Just thinking of a mechanical key. Yep. And is it possible, from a manufacturing point of view, it should, as far as I can think, be possible to make a cylindrical or a hollow section key with the elements on the inside? Yes, they exist. They are stupid expensive. They might be expensive, but why are they? Because it should be fairly simple to make the key. How do you make the mechanism that engages with the key? What's the actual physics in terms of the moving part of the lock? Actually, the guy who handed you the microphone is going to answer that question. Hello. Anything. Lock technology, anything is possible. It's all to do with cost. I'm a working locksmith, so it's difficult to get anyone to pay more than 25 quid for a lock. A very common, a very well-known lock, but not very well used, known to lock geeks, is a lock called a Brahmi. It's a cylindrical lock and it has wafers that move from the outside, painted in 1,800 odds, been going on for about 200 years, but they're maybe 300, 400 quid to fit. They're nigh on impossible to sight read because if you get fluff in the end of them, you can't really sight read them. If you did sight read them, who do you know is going to make your Brahmi key other than the Brahmi factory or Nigel? We'll make you one. They've been gaining hundreds of years. The paintings are old and you can, if you're interested, look up Brahmi, BR, AM, AH, and all the information you need there. Even if you look at the newer system, if you look at dome, at dome system D, well, you guys don't know it, it's an evil-looking lock. Well, actually it's an evil-looking key. It's basically two keys milled, well, fused together. So it's, what, 13 pins? Yeah. But the problem with that lock technically is beautiful. It's a bitch to pick. It's not unpickable, which is basically no lock, but it's quite hard to pick. But manufacturing that key, if you need a duplication, you get dome, and they had to cut a piece of metal at both sides, and then bend it to a key shape, to their key shape, which they did, but it was that expensive that the replacement key was, I don't know, 40, 50 euros. And like you heard Warren, that's about double the price people will pay for their lock, let alone their key. So, yeah, I mean, if you want quality, that's going to cost you. And of course it's all a matter of what is your risk profile. If you're in a server room, you probably don't want to go like, ah, yeah, it's 20 euros more, let's not. If it's your business, probably not. And it also depends where you live, of course. I mean, if it's a high ground area, whatever. So it's all risk profile. There was a question over there. All on a second for the microphone. Just an anecdote. The thing about making a physical copy of a key by impression on a material in the mid 70s using cuttlefish, which is given to budgets to sharpen their beaks against. I'm kind of known with that method, yeah. No, but at least the mid 70s in a TV show. Anyway, the second question, how many bits of information in a typical key? In a typical... Yep, how many bits of... I know typical... Warren, you know that? Because I didn't need a math that much. As a smaller side, I originally worked for a company in London doing this all day long, just making keys and photographs. And so standard key is five pin or possibly six pin. So standard Yale, maybe you're only going to see seven or maybe eight heights at most six pin. So six to the power of... Six, eight, nine. You're never going to see more than nine. So it's not very much. That's not that big of a problem. Because if you... Because I don't know where you live. Because I mean, if everybody would have the same brand and type of lock, that's the birthday attack basically. There will be two people who have the same key. But, sorry. I see what you mean. He said from an image processing point of view, looking at the image and decoding, it's very, very simple. Well, yeah, yeah. Because there are only a finite number of depths. I believe my time is a route up. Maybe we have one time for one more if there is one more. And we're done. Very good. I'll get you one more question. There's one question. We'll take one in front row, Warren. Oh, there's two. So as a lock nerd, how do you secure your own home? Just curious. How I secure my own home. Show us pictures. Don't tell him, Pike. If a burglar would attack my home and it happened before, I'm not saying they can't get in. But it probably will not go through my lock because, well, it's way easier to make a new door for that matter. Or just mill through that door. Or whatever. Can I add a bit for you, Joss? Last year at lock con, I returned from lock con to find that my house had been burgled. And he's a locksmith. As a smaller side, in my house was maybe £30,000 or more in auto lock gear for VW and Audi group and some other car manufacturers. So my house was broken in. The CCTV was taken. The remote monitoring the CCTV was taken out. Roughly 90 seconds to get to my back door, take the back door out, take the CCTV and all the locks and that was a team of locksmiths who broke into my house. Okay. And my house is quite secure. If they want it, they will get it. Those tools are only available from my home and that's where they took them from. It is a risk profile. Whatever you have. We have one more question from the general over there and then we're calling the rep. Aren't there still far more people who have the skill to pick a lock than the ability to make a key from a picture? I don't know because to be a lock picker takes training and skill and this is a handicraft. So it's a total... it is. If you can work with tin soldiers you can do this. And it's... Of course, if you know what a key is supposed to look like but hello Google. It helps. So I think it's a different skill set. So I don't know what the numbers do. I think if people will try this then it's way easier. I need to get off. Good one. Nice. Just for a lock picker you have to take the lock picker there. So if only you can pick that lock you've got to go to wherever the lock is to make the key from the photograph. You can see the key worldwide. Nobody's skill needs to be there. With this technique you end up with a working key. I can give to other people. And yeah, we're kind of done. Thank you.