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Hyperledger is committed to creating safe and welcoming community for all. For more information, please visit our Hyperledger code of conduct. So welcome everybody, we just came back after a while, you know, after our last meeting on 22nd of December, it's nice to see you all here. I'll leave them to you at all to start the meeting. It's going to be interesting for everybody who joined us today at all. Yeah. Well, no, first of all, thank you so much, Andrea, and welcome everyone to trade finance special interest group for 2021. And I think, you know, we are in for an exciting year. And it's my pleasure to be the vice chair and also to kick the session off for the year along with our community leader, Rose. So yeah, so maybe just a bit of introduction from you as well. And then I'll just share my slides. Yeah. Thanks so too. Yeah, just pleased to be here and look forward to doing this joint presentation with DLT ledges and how we're working together with Bolero. I look after Bolero's business development for Northeast Asia and for Australia, New Zealand, Oceania region. So a fairly broad remit. But yeah, just think we should get into it and start talking about today's subject at all. Absolutely. All right. So I think, you know, Andrea reached out to me to talk about, you know, what, you know, a working together between DLT ledgers and Bolero means. I think some most of you would have seen the press release that went out last year. And I wanted to take an opportunity to do a little bit bigger and maybe give an opportunity to also ask a question to myself, you know, I look after the business development as well as the market development for DLT ledger. So it's my pleasure to co-present this along with Rose, a number of other colleagues and the team members of DLT ledgers are also on the call. So we would love to keep it interactive. We would love to keep it more informative. And what we would do in the session is really just walk you through a little bit about what, you know, each of us are doing and what this partnership means. And more kind of giving also a closure to the, closer to the pin touch, I think from an specific angle where both of us are based and, you know, working on. So, you know, we have colleagues on the call from other parts of the world as well. So, you know, chip in as well as we kind of build this joint strategy together. So with that, I'll just kick off what, you know, if you already not know about DLT ledgers, you know, we are now into the fourth year of the running Singapore headquarter, you know, cross motor trade, digitization platform. We got 2020 was a really beautiful year for us where we really crossed the chasm and, you know, we kind of moved into a real prominence where, you know, we have been helping customers of various thesis sizes, small, medium, large, as well as, you know, participating, you know, business partner and ecosystem of those customers along with the at the bank. And I think, you know, based on the internal modeling that we did, the tipping point of the network was read somewhere around June or July of last year. And after that, I think we see momentum really pushing us forward like they do in, you know, any form of business. So we are running a great momentum right now, you know, in terms of what we do with our customers, I think we all have over now 529 customers. So I think this is still, you know, growing every day over 21 large corporates, over 45 banks in the network, and the, you know, the number of trades as well as, you know, the dollar value that is financed is well over 3 billion. In terms of the support and the ecosystem that we are looking at building is which is where, you know, we are building more and more partnership as we feel that collaborative partnership working together with the like minded player, I think makes a lot of sense where the network needs to connect to each other, network needs to have a touch in field with each other, not just talking about interoperability at a technical level, but there has to be also the process and the people level in terms of how, you know, we all can actually coexist and make it easier for customers towards their digitalization journey. Now we have over 70 staff across different parts of the world, including I see people from middle list dialing in. So we have our middle list and main eye headquarter, middle list and Africa headquarter out there in Abu Dhabi. We also have offices in India as well as partner offices in Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South East Asia, and as well as in Africa. In terms of what we are also beginning to see is also in convergence of how enterprise systems, you know, such as, you know, your own classic you know, operating systems of the enterprises such as ERP, merging in terms of the technology into, you know, a mixing machine, machine learning as well as what we could see on the blockchain together. So I think it's also the combination of next generation, not just focused around, you know, a standard and piece of technology, but also how it can, you know, mix along with the operating system of the organization. It's where we spend a lot of time. Across the sectors, we, you know, we are proud about the team, our customer success and customer adoption team has done a fantastic job of creating trigger-table, smart contract templates for over 75 different communities. And that is really helping us in a cross to really get any new, you know, company to get started. And we also see more and more merchandising trade type of opportunities coming through as well. And, you know, manufacturing companies coming out of exporting, you know, they're manufacturing from, let's say from Singapore into other parts of the world, we also see them kind of coming into the, into the fold of BLT ledgers and continue to build more and more on this. We have got decent recognition from, you know, external parties as well as also from Singapore government. And, you know, we are into our think of running the digitization program for any companies who are looking to get, get digitization started, you know, whether it's about looking at contracts, whether it's looking at on parties on board, whether they're looking at, you know, integrating with their own, you know, current systems, whether you're looking at, hey, can I actually have a baby steps before I get started? It's all about providing a journey and a curated fashion is what we stand for. So with that, I'll pass it to Ross to just talk a little bit about how Polaroid is leading the digital trade revolution as well. Thanks, Atul. Yeah, Polaroid has now been as a business for around 20 years. And I think of that I've been involved with Polaroid for 17 years. And if you look at the phases, I'd say at least for the first half of that, Polaroid was was really out there a lot on its own trying to digitize trade. And then in the last 10 years, we've seen evolution of other parties getting involved and, of course, with blockchain technology over the last five years. So a bit of history of how Polaroid came about originated from an EU initiative as a research study to dematerialize on what you call digitize international trade process flows. And it was put together by Swift, the banking community and the TT club, the insurance marine insurance community. So Polaroid from its foundation really relied on a lot of expertise, his people that have worked in trade and moved across into the digital space. Groundbreaking market leader and innovator, true. Like I said, it was pretty much a green field in the early days. But that comes with a lot of challenges. You know, honestly, when you're doing it all by yourself, it's really hard to make change at a rapid pace. So there was progress. But the thing we've we've achieved over the years through Bolero's initiatives has been a lot of, you know, firsts of different aspects, first electronic bills of ladings, first electronic presentation, first multi bank solutions, et cetera, et cetera. But the real opportunity is to scale it up. And like what Till mentioned, reach a tipping point. And that's what Bolero has been able to do in terms of the community that's attached to Bolero. So the good part about it is a lot of experience with Bolero, but also a lot of recognition that you can't do everything by yourself. And and that's probably the underlying opportunity with Bolero and DLT ledgers is to have opportunity to bring together expertise that's very complementary and it makes the overall solution much, much better received by the customers, the clients and much more in demand by those wishing to engage in trade digitization. Absolutely. And then if you look at, you know, you know, your orange, the blockchain and I think you have been advocate about the same right arrow, so you want to maybe give a little bit of your flavor here as well. Yeah, well, we've seen a bit of a trend where there's an opportunity to leverage, if you call more established technology such as a Bolero for the provisioning of, I guess, certain aspects of the trade flows that have been accepted, but to complement the new initiatives that have come through developments on blockchain platforms, DLT. And, you know, we had a long, hard look as blockchains evolved and where can Bolero fit in with its current technology stack? And in a way, we found that Bolero kind of is a bit like a private permission blockchain and therefore we looked at how we could synergize what Bolero does into a blockchain platform that might need, for instance, today's topic and electronic bill of lading. And we've done that with a number of well-known, you know, blockchain initiatives. And we're seeing a lot more of these evolve as we speak. So, you know, that's the tenor of what we're going to talk about today, how, you know, what DLT ledges is providing and then how Bolero fits into that ecosystem and what we bring together to make the whole solution more viable for clients and able to scale faster. Now, it's awesome. It's a great vision to have that to really, you know, connect in an open way to the network and participate with the new technologies. So really, kudos to you and your team there, Rose. So I think, you know, you know, in terms of where you see we working together, maybe just a bit of a color would be helpful here as well, Rose. Sure. So, you know, I'm not going to override anything about DLT ledges. You don't know it's all. But basically, if you look at the offering, you know, you're doing pre-shipment finance with bank funding between buyer and seller. And after there's been a payment made through the DLT ledger platform, what we're doing is adding the ability for a EBL, Bolero EBL to be passed from the carrier by a DLT ledgers through Bolero out to the commercial parties. So the supplier is the first recipient. They will then forward a copy to their bank. And the supplier then is able to use the Bolero processes to transfer the electronic bill of lading via DLT ledgers all seamlessly through to the buyer. And then the buyers got options. What do they want to surrender the EBL through the platform and pass it back to the carrier so that they can get the goods? Or do they need to switch it to paper because it might be the next party in the chain is not on the electronic platform. So that's the general part of it. DLT is providing its service and Bolero is putting in the extra yards to provide the EBL, which, as Atul mentioned to me the other day, you know, one, there's an existing opportunity, but there's also clients that are asking for this sort of addition to the solution. Now, exactly right. And I think it's it's it's really kind of, you know, connecting the dots, if you will, we really need to provide an end to end to digitization, which is where, you know, we, we, we believe that partnership is really two plus two equal to five. And, you know, just also, you know, put direct view into what we think how the integration is complementary, right? So I think, you know, what we are really good at is looking at the entire lifecycle of the trade, you know, all the way from the deal confirmation to looking at, you know, managing the different types of contracts, helping them to convert them into smart contracts, looking at making sure that all the laundry list of over 27 different types of documents that may be needed for the trades in order, making sure that all of them are authenticated and, you know, blockchain, if you will, for the purpose of authenticity, and really, you know, also involving the banks for the finances, as Rose mentioned in the previous conversation, really making sure that they are in their support and also providing a really a collaborative platform where different parties who could come and collaborate as if it relates to that particular trade. And, you know, a huge amount of effort has gone in to really, you know, provide the maturity to the platform that we, you know, we have it now running over two years to provide consensus to different types of, you know, terms and conditions that one would have to trade, as well as, you know, what different types of trade finance instruments you would be looking at. And, you know, as the moral nature of the platform, you know, we do allow open account, supply chain finance related support from a bank, a five point of view, as well as the documentary trade support. And, you know, providing really a granular tracking of the trade flow, I think at each step in the way, I think it's been a winning for our customers. And quite a few of our customers, as we have been working closely over the last, you know, a couple of years, have been demanding, you know, a good rounding off for an end to end electronic BL, and that's where we thought we're absolutely vital for our customers, as well as joint customers that Bolero has with us. It would be great to, you know, build this integration which really provides the complementary capabilities. And what, you know, in terms of the nature of the BLTG platform, that's one of the reasons where I applaud the Bolero and the team, because I think the technology has come to the level where, you know, we are at, because of the architecture that we put in place, we are almost able to plug and play any different modules. And we have 16 different deep modules that is part of the platform today. And, you know, ranging from supply chain finance to KYC, to dynamic consensus, to the smart contracts, to, you know, documentary trade, the works, right? But to really look at what is needed as part of the trade plan, connecting that in a plug-in preparation is really, in an open environment, that really is where, you know, we thrive ourselves. So I think, you know, Bolero, we believe, and then, Rose, you can add in one side and put in my flavor to it. We believe you're bringing a huge level of support into the electronic field of leading processing and management of it. Not just the rulebook, but there is also entire framework that, you know, you have tested over a period of time and, you know, you continue to do quite massive work in that space. And, you know, as an original eBell provider, you know, obviously, surprised to say that you are already, you know, setting the strain, if you will, in terms of the P&I club approvals, and also in terms of the number of carriers and the trade flow and the port pair that what could enable, I think you got a significant coverage with over 22 carriers and supporting, you know, I was talking to one carrier who, again, you are in terms of, you know, your eBusiness, their eBusiness solution is already integrated with Colorado, which really makes it easier for carriers to also participate in this trade flow. So I think, you know, the continuous adoption of the carriers and improvement in that area, I think land itself well to have more and more trade flow opened up. I do believe that, you know, if you can do more and more port pairs and more on the trade flows between different parts of Asia, Africa, Europe and then North America, I think, you know, more and more benefit it would be to the all different parties. Rose, do you want to add anything in terms of how you see the lens on your side? Yeah, I just think, you know, the first thing, why it's easy for Bolero to talk with the electronic bills of lading is the name Bolero actually stands for Bill of Lading Electronic Registry Organization. So when the company was founded, it was basically first task to remove paper bills of lading. So, you know, I said this to a lot of guys I talked to about technology, it's not the technology, it's the acceptance of the technology. So having something that works technologically versus gaining acceptance from the broader community, the exporters, the importers, the carriers, the ports, et cetera, et cetera. You know, that came with a lot of blood, sweat and tears and it's, you know, work in progress. But everything Bolero has put together has been well used for over 16 years commercially in terms of electronic bills of lading, you know, from full digital EBLs end to end from seller to buyer with carriers involved. So none of this is theoretical, it's all practiced. The P&I Club approval's been in place for a long time. I think one thing to note about the number of carriers I think both of you were watching a different ball today. We took our eyes off something because it should be over 200 carriers, not cricket balls. So, yeah, and that's Let me do a different picture at Gabba, so. All right, we'll just update that. And their bulk carriers are a very massive number and a huge number of vessels. So they're able to provision EBLs at the client's request which nicely plug into our combined solution. And a lot of the, I think, eight out of 10 of the world's top container line is using Bolero and there's two, three of those with integration into their e-business solutions at present. So it's sort of under the covers, you don't know that Bolero is involved because it's like, you know, your PC is like Intel chip. So Bolero is doing the EBL, the carrier fronts that it's white labeled and they're pumping out especially the last year with COVID necessitating a lot of things done electronically. Huge increase of electronic bills of lading through these carriers, e-business solutions. Yep, no, in fact, I could relate one story. I was talking to one carrier, you know, who uses Bolero and, you know, they've been saying that, look, you know, we've been using it for all along but, you know, my board wants me to talk about something else. So let me talk about something else. But, you know, if you want to do real stuff on to, you know, do the actual shipments electronically, you know, we'd be happy to do plenty of that, right? So I think you got a large, you know, array of carriers to help. And I think the port pairs, we probably, you know, it enables most of the trade routes where we could do, we could do this. I think there are always a question that come up, Rose, and that's probably one that also came up from our team when we were preparing for this was also, what happens to the last mile connectivity, if you will, right? So, you know, how do we handle that? Is that something that kind of, you know, we have a solution on or, you know, we literally can go down to the last mile with the Bolero solution within the port in a country or you have any general comment on that or, you know, we should only be looking at certain pair, port pairs to begin with or any guidance on that would be helpful, maybe. Oh, Bolero, yeah, Bolero was built day one to go end to end. So it can go right through from an import to a destination port. Just depends whether the port wants to get things electronically. Some of the ports around the world have their own electronic portals and people just have to attach their documents to the port or, you know, we've had customers that wanted full digital so they can upload data to their back office and that's possible with a port system. So it's just the desire to be fully digital versus accepting the current processes is what drives it. So for example, you're mentioning about Taiwan, right? So in Taiwan, would it be like any ports that you would be fine with or if you only wanted to port that port initially, you think? Oh, yeah, well, just one that example. Usually in a country, it's great if you've got one port. So we've done particular ports in Taiwan and what happens then is the other thing is if you get a big shipper, big exporter, they tend to have a lot of sway in the market so that can move the market. The other thing we found in China was if one port was accepting the EBL where the cargo had an EBL involved and another port didn't, the buyer can actually switch for which port they wanna just have the goods discharged and that port that didn't wanna participate would lose from business. And it's amazing how quickly that they would start to accept the electronic process. So it becomes more evaluated service and it's kind of differentiated in some sense of the world. Yeah, well, some country companies I've dealt with they said, look, we're a 150-year-old company we've got 200-year-old business practices so they don't wanna change. So there's gotta be some catalyst to change and that can be done in a nice way and it's moved it. But yeah, in a lot of countries things just start with one and then it grows. But what I've found is a lot of these things can be country-orientated. So you've always got to get the first in a country and then you can spread it out but until you've got one in a country some country doesn't care what another country does. So that's all the education process and building process. Absolutely, you're right. And I think what's the need from a deal to a business point of view? I think we're absolutely thrilled to be partnering with Waller who has already done a mess that you want to work on on digitizing the bill of lady. And it's all about ecosystem, right? So I think we need to connect the dots, as I said, from a people point of view, from a process point of view, from an adoption point of view. And obviously, there's a lot of work that's being done on the interoperability point of view as well. So building an ecosystem. And at the end of the day, the corporate, the customers that we have, we want to give them a flexibility. They want to actually continue to work with some of our customers we find, they already run Ballero. So they want to actually connect the LG to Ballero. They want to actually do more and more trade routes, more and more forward pairs. So continue to build an ecosystem. We see a great value in that. Continue to support the customers because at the end of the day, I think more and more everybody benefits in this call if we actually can do an end to end digital transaction. And that cannot happen with one party because it has to happen with the network. And if we can support that more and more repeat trades happening with our customers, which could get increasingly digital. And I know there would be naysayer in this group will say, hey, what happens to a surveyor? What happens to forwarder? What happens to that guy, that guy? But I think as we can have minimum viable parties to really keep doing more and more of repeat. And like Perot said, there will be always a set of customers who will be cutting behind their old way of doing things. Maybe they would be the legged. But I think we have now crossed the chasm. So we are into, I think early majority in terms of the adoption cycle. So continue to support customers is one of the key reason we partner. And then obviously to win the business, right? So, you know, we do see opportunities with other combined forces. We see that, you know, there's an opportunity to win and additional set of business which will benefit both BLT ledger as well as Malera. So what's the need for Malera or what's yours? Well, obviously to work with the company like DLT ledger who's applying latest technology to be able to work with that technology and leverage off it is a great opportunity for Balero to bring to the table and enhance its reputation, but not just that to actually fill in the gaps, you know? Like it's very hard to do everything on your own in international trade. It's really complicated. So that's a key thing, you know, to build, I guess, the perception that Balero has not been there, done that and gone out the back door sort of thing. I think, you know, I've known you guys a tool. There's a great investment in the company and a push with marketing and sales and the market reach to fill in some of the gaps where Balero doesn't have as many feet on the ground. But given everything we do is electronic, you know, always with Balero, we've never had to have so many offices and that. So, you know, we've got core offices in the UK, in Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore, and that's how we sort of support the business currently globally. And like I mentioned before, you know, to blend in with the latest technology, you know, Balero does not use any blockchain service directly. Not that it say it won't in the future, but, you know, we're not using AI and machine learning. So why not go with people that are experts and making great pace forward, but fill in the gap like Atul said, you know, bring to the table, not just the technology of the EBL, but the acceptance by corporates in country acceptance, proven utilization. And not the least is, you know, apart from the banks and the corporates, but the carriers, you know, the carriers are coming across and starting to even implement it in their own e-business solution. So it's a great opportunity to work together. No, absolutely. And just the final thing on, in terms of the partnership, we have been working very closely with Sunil here in Singapore, as well as Rose to cover the North Asia and Australia path. So, you know, we are really working hand-to-hand to really benefit our customers towards the digitization. And I think we believe that 2021 would be really a year where I think it takes off certainly with Singapore going all guns, bloating with electronic documentation, getting it passed in the parliament and the last couple of weeks has been fantastic here locally. I think we are in for an exciting time. And with that, what I'll do is I'll just, you know, keep this session open for the questions because we wanted to make sure at the start of the session, we want to talk more about taking the questions. And, you know, if there is any comments or questions that people may have, we can discuss that. So certainly that's something that I wanted to do. And yeah, can we have any questions if any one of you have any questions for either Rose or myself? Or are there any chat questions, Andrea? Yeah, thanks for the presentation. Rahul and Ross, it was really, really interesting from my side, you know, I'm just asking myself, you know, whether somebody would like to step in and ask something of this respect. I think there's a question from Rahul. There is a question from Rahul. May I request Ross to dwell on the regulatory acceptance of EBL, that's the first question. And then secondly, also the ports recognizing EBL without converting into paper. Yeah, so there's only, there's a few countries in the world who will not accept an EBL. So when we talk about countries, we see more issues on the import side than the export side. Although I know in Bangladesh there was issues with export side just because bank regulations sort of stood in the way. But predominantly, as we've gone from country to country, on the export side, it's usually been a free flow. Nobody really gets in the way at a port. On the import side, the challenges that we've met was one, if there'd never been anything done in a country, it's very easy for the naysayers to say, oh, you can't use an EBL because of XYZ. And I could write a book on the number of reasons not to change. But was there any solid reason for not doing it? No. So we found countries where they have different rules in different ports. So there might be a country customs rule that affects the port operations. But each port doesn't necessarily follow the same rule book. They have a local interpretation. And some ports would say, well, all we need is the BL number. So whether it is an EBL or is a paper BL, it didn't matter. To get discharged, all you need to do is provide the BL number. Some ports said all we need is a copy of the BL. Well, you can give a copy of an EBL, that's fine. There are a few instances where people said, we must have a paper BL. So we would ask them why? And they would say, oh, we've had so many frauds with BLs. We want the original BL. So then we say, well, you want the original paper BL that you've already had frauds with. Wouldn't it be better if you had an EBL to obviate the risk of fraud? And they go, oh yeah, that's a great idea. So then they're happy with that. But the underlying question has also got one issue. An EBL can terminate at the importer and once they surrender the EBL, the EBL does not exist. They surrender it back to the carrier. The carrier gives the importer a delivery order. They can pick up their goods. So there's this thing that an EBL exists right through to the port. Well, if the port doesn't want to receive electronically, the EBL's already gone, it's terminated. So there is no EBL to actually connect to a port and to suffer any regulatory issue. But if you roll it up into one comment, the major issue is, has there been one done in a country at a port? Because if there hasn't, then you've got a big education challenge to get over. And that's been a lot of the work we've done over the years just to break down those barriers. How that can often happen is you get a major exporter shipping to a major importer and then all the issues change. And nowadays we're seeing a lot of countries actually start to regulate that you will accept electronic documents, you will accept digitization, you will accept electronic signature. So a lot of my comments are based on probably 19 years of history with Bolero, but the last year has been a massive change in that. But I'm not saying that every port in the world is not going to come up with a pushback, but it requires a lot of education to get over those barriers. Yeah, no, and that's fantastic, Rose. Thank you for that. And just also to, you know, common question that every time, you know, we get from customers as well. Well, okay, can you give me by country, whether it's regulatory, you know, whether you will have electronic BL. And then can I blanket to say that this country is going to accept electronic BL? So I think what Rose is saying, it is answered, it really depends on the combo of a corporate and a port in that country, right? So it's not necessarily a blanket, yes or a blanket, no. Rose, is that correct? So for example, if it is Australia, can I say it is a blanket, yes, for, you know, if anybody wants to do electronic BL out of Australia, or it is actually based on a customer and a port, and then, you know, it's customer willingness to do electronic BL and therefore it will happen, right? So maybe that could be useful to just dwell on for that as well. Well, we haven't seen any issues in countries like Australia, China, where there's been a lot of trade flows using EBL, Korea, Japan, you know, South America to the US, India. Yes, well, no, India is great on the export side. It's been a bit slower on the import side, but making great strides at the moment. So, you know, the situation's changing there. So I think there was one other thing I was going to mention. The one of our partners, a carrier, one of the top three container lineers, they've actually got a great sales kit that they talk about their EBL, E-Business Solution. It doesn't mention Valero, but they've actually mapped globally and they've got a nice map that shows you where EBLs are accepted globally. Now, I can't hand that out, but I could refer, for anybody wants to know, I could refer it to that company because that bit of collateral is really spectacular. It answers this question really well. No, that's great. Now, that would be great to share as well. And I think there's a question from Roland to say that it appears there are many ecosystem in trade finance, but also in the wider economy. Will DLT ledgers in Bolor are able to interoperate with multiple ledgers? If so, how? If not, why not? Thanks, so I'll take that rose. I think it is, as I said, at the start of my presentation, absolutely interoperability is key. And in fact, it is quite fascinating to note that the interoperability in the technical level has already been achieved across multiple ledgers. So I don't think it's a fault of the technical team being not able to interoperate. It is always about the flows and also process and adoption. So Rose mentioned that even though if I have perfect ledgers and perfect setup for my destination port and load port, but if the customer doesn't want to change his process, it's not going to happen. So I think interoperability is, as I said, the lens on the technical side of the lens is fairly straightforward. I think the lens where we all need to do a lot of work is on the business side of the house, making the trade flows. Just now what Rose mentioned, if you look at the trade flows and say from Singapore to Australia, let's say, or the Middle East from Dubai into coming into Southeast Asia or from Southeast Asia going into China, or let's say Africa coming into parts of Asia. So when you look at the flows, look at the port pairs and see how much of the trade flow can be digitized, I think that number is very, very, very small. So I think, and that's where I think Emmanuel is on the call. My request Emmanuel, if you are there, I think one of the number that I would like to hear this year from World Economic Forum is to see how much of the $18 trillion trade is actually conducted digitally. Because there has been no real sense of that and that would really help us to say, okay, now we were at X, now we are going to go to Y. So I think this debate on interoperability will always continue unless there is a parameter, but that's something, it's a great question, but we don't believe that reality there is a problem there because we are not able to measure it. And as you know, whatever is not getting measured will not get done. So long answer to your question, Ronald, but open for your comment Emmanuel or Rose if you have any on that. I just had two things. I was actually going to be on another conference call which overlaps, so I didn't sit on it tonight, but it's a DCSI digital container shipping initiative and the subject was EBL standards. So there's two issues really that to add to this, apart from the technology, which is great, there are standards and there's legal issues. So there's laws in country and there's global initiatives with the ICC doing things around international trade flows. So that's why it's complicated because it tends to fragment when you go by different countries and how they do things. And each country's got its own strategy with digitization. So there needs to be some normalization. Standards and this goes back to what Swift did with banking fantastic, but there's the legality as well. You get standards, you can talk easy between systems and do integration easier, but then there's a legal aspect to make sure it's legal to accept electronic documents and that affects a lot of issues, but those two things are okay. Yeah. All right, I think we are fighting away with the chats here. I think are you able to comment by the way, Emmanuel, you had any comments if you feel free to jump in? Thanks, that's good. No, actually nothing to add to what Ross was saying. I think he summarized it very well. You have the tech aspect, but you also have the legal aspect and the decentralization dimension. And we're all trying to work together to try and make it happen, but it's challenging. What's coming up in 2021 so that I can keep and look out for you for any new reports coming up from your side? There would be a few and there may be, I'm trying to schedule the next Global Trend Blockchain event on the 18th of March. So that's the date I've put aside for the moment. So you can already mark your agenda. Awesome, thank you so much. Thank you, thank you for that. And I'll take the next question as well. Are you able to comment on the means and limitation of inputting data into EVL? For example, are there needs for physical digital infrastructure throughout the supply chain? Is this something can or should be accommodated? Ross, you want to give it a try in terms of the limitation of inputting data? I haven't heard that before on EVL. No, no limits. It comes down to the, usually the desire whoever's creating a document. So an EVL is actually what can be drafted between the shipper to the carrier. But at the end of the day, the absolute EVL is created by the carrier. And, you know, we had a service running on Malero in 2004, which was totally digital. So the carrier created a digital EVL would go through from buyers, from seller to buyer. And the seller, the buyer went upload the data from the EVL as well as their other commercial and inspection documents into their ERP system. So it's possible the Malero EVL that we'll plug in with DLT Legends is actually XML based. So we're ready for digital. It's just, if you don't get somebody creating data at source digitally, it's hard to change it along the way on the supply chain. And I think that comes back to the standards thing because everybody wants the standard. So, you know, it's why that container shipping initiative digital standard for EVLs is a great initiative. Yeah, no, absolutely. So just to add on to that, yes, absolutely. There is no real limitation on that part. And there isn't any physical digital infrastructures. Like, you know, I think what he, that, you know, what is being alluded here is probably, you know, rose things like, you know, do I need a, you know, a specific printer at the port to print if I want converting an electronic BL into a paper BL, do I need like a printer with a, you know, kind of a hallmark or some kind of a, you know, thing that, you know, it's only we'll print it once and then it will erase it from elsewhere. Probably that's where that question is alluding to. So do you really need any specific printers? If you will, if you're converting to paper, not really, right? No, but the carriers offer a remote print service. So they don't need a specific printer, but it's a service that they would offer. And they have their own paper with their letterhead and all that sort of stuff at the recipient's office. And that's how they do a remote BL type service. Right, got it. All right. And then there is one more question from Rukka, saying that from legal perspectives, are there any plans to review the Bolero rule book in light of amendment to Singapore Electronic Transaction Act? This will allow to issue EBL with full legal validity. Do you have any comment on that, Rose? It's that you already anywhere do that, right? Well, the way Bolero is set up, Bolero International is like the platform operating company, but then there's a Bolero Association, which are all the users and all the users impact things like the rule book and changes to that. So those things can be worked through and what Bolero always wants to do is adapt to in-country progress that's being made. So Singapore Australia has initiatives with digitization. So things like that, they come up, of course, Bolero looks to leverage in any way, shape or form. We can make things adapt and make things flow faster. So the answer would be yes. Now, is it happening at the moment? I don't know. I'd like to take that question offline. Yeah, absolutely. And just to add under that, we are into a thick of action with the Singapore ETSO. I think that's, watch out for this space and we will provide an update as soon as it is available. But yeah, it's a great question. So thank you for that, I think. And we are back to you. If you have any questions yourself, I think we have been having some good questions on chat. No, I'm fine for me. I mean, we haven't had a question actually from Fami Montgomery to if you're, I know we ran it out of time, you know, just would like to give full answers to the attendance. And Fami is asking, what do you think about Indonesia, acceptance, readiness of e-bill of lading and blockchain trade, TX? Yeah, I think I'll just give my point of view. It is really absolutely depends on, there are obviously Indonesia has lots of ports, but I think there are certain ports which are good for electronic transaction. But then again, you know, I'll defer it to Rose to see, you know, if there is anything peculiar that you see in Indonesia, which, you know, prevents, but I think I do recollect from Sunil that, you know, not an issue at all as far as, you know, whether it's consent to support Indonesia portways. Yeah, I've got some customers that want to export into Indonesia. And I guess where I just put that into is that so far I haven't seen any of my customers been able to do that. And I hear that there's some initiatives through the ICC and the banks to work with the regulators in Indonesia to make things more approachable for digital solutions and acceptance legally in Indonesia. So I do believe there's some momentum in that space at the moment that will open up things. So what's the space, Femi? But 2021 definitely I think would be the year in South East Asia because, you know, I think in a Singapore government is leading the panel of G2G countries which includes all South East Asian countries. They are driving hard about the digital standards. And, you know, as Ros mentioned, this is a standard initiative is also at Kordaroa Singapore and they are taking all the South Asian countries together as far as the standards are getting built. So I think sooner than later, I would say, Femi. Yeah, the questions from the attendance. No, I think what we are trying to do is really kind of focus on doing more and more transactions and opening up the trade flows rights from different parts of the ports. I think it would be handy, I think, Andrea, if we take that up as a trade financing project to see, you know, based on the world today on electronic end-to-end digitization, you know, which are the port, which are the port pairs across countries are open for, you know, acceptance of digital BL solution. I think that would be a good little project to do because I think, you know, we, you know, for example, Indonesia is a great question because, you know, they have a number of ports. Now, obviously, you know, which port that would be my most likely for me to work together with. I think it would be a bit of a research that we could take offline, Andrea, and see if our team can, you know, some mic. I think you are breaking up. Sorry, my feeling is that, you know, I don't know what's going on maybe here. The connection is not that good. I was telling, digitization port is going very fast in the epic region. We should try to be as fast as possible to keep the pace even in other parts of the world, namely Europe. We're stepping up. I mean, at least we're trying to do so, but, you know, we're still struggling, you know, to keep the pace of Asia. Something will happen for sure to happen shortly after we're supposed to Middle Eastern in Africa, in Northern Africa, I believe because we are so working at it. I expect something else to happen in the old Turkey, just keep country. I know, just keep an eye on what's going on as you can see from my post on LinkedIn, trying to follow up. Yeah. It is my... No, it's... Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Yeah, you're breaking up, but I think absolutely you're breaking up and we are, but... I'm having a bad connection these days. I don't know what's happening. I'm sorry. That's all right. But I think we can take that as the next topic internally for us to discuss. But I think with that, we are coming to the close of the session and if there is any final question, if not, I would like to thank you and to set this up for us. You're welcome to my pleasure and honor. So hopefully we'll go for some more interesting people very soon. Absolutely. All right. Thank you so much, Rose, for staying up and being really a good co-presenter along with me. I think I really enjoyed it and let's kick some tires and get some good business in and we can report the success back to NVR again. That was good. Awesome. Thank you so much, everyone. I was going to end it. Thank you. Take care, everybody. Thank you. All right. Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye-bye, guys. See you soon.