 One of the things that I noticed in Bosnia that I was really struck by is people didn't stop caring about the things that people care about every day. So I made friends with this one young woman. She was a Bosnian and she worked on our staff as a translator or something. And she was a soulful person and we became friends and she had great, great sadness in her. But it really wasn't anything to do with the political or military situation that was raging on around us all the time. It was about her profound sense of loneliness that she'd never really felt deeply mirrored in a relationship and she longed for that. And that's where her energies were. That's where her heart was. And I remember being struck by that. It's like we don't stop being human in the midst of these calamities. Of course, as one might expect, I'm spending a lot of time in my practice speaking with people about the disruption in their lives currently. But after a few minutes of talking about how they're managing with this or that, people are still worried about their families. They're worried about their relationships. They want to find love. They want to be understood. They want to find joy. That is all happening just in this different context. But the context doesn't erase those kind of basic human things. I mean, of course, it impacts them. I'm finding that people are facing unique challenges, for example, in their relationships because of the disruption. Or they're facing unique challenges in terms of how they relate to their career plans because of the disruption. But those basic things that we all need, they haven't changed. I would say that I have a similar experience, Lisa, that maybe in the first 5 or 10 minutes, people are doing an update about what they're circling around on the news or some adjustments they had to make. But when we go right to the dream work, I have yet to have a single dream about the coronavirus show up in the practice. People are dreaming about family relationships. They're dreaming about their complexes. Or they're dreaming about this tension of values between two different parts of their psyches. Or they're dreaming about love and longing. And that the full spectrum of the concerns of the soul seem to continue to circle forward despite the outer seeming of things. So the image that comes up for me as I hear you two talk, and I could say my experience in my practice is the same, is of the ocean. And that even when the surface is storm-ridden, choppy, and churning, if you go down 100 feet or 200 feet or however far, there is a deeper layer that remains steady on. That the deeper layers of the psyche are still there and that we access them in our work with individuals. And there's something very deeply reassuring about that and about how the two of you are expressing it, is our depths are still there. They are still speaking to us and they are still concerned with the things that are very deeply human and deeply individual. I absolutely love that image Deb. I think that's perfect that the surface of the ocean can be churning and even churning dangerously. Ships can get capsized and people can get hurt. But if we go deep enough down in the ocean, there's little perhaps changing or even going on and life moves forward as usual in these mysterious places. Jung addressed this tension between what's happening on the surface and what's happening on the deep in the red book. And he introduces the idea of this voice of the spirit of the times versus the voice of the deep or the depths. And as he is negotiating these two values inside of himself, he feels this enormous tension about what is he going to align with. And I think what he comes to is that he needs to be able to hold both. That there is a voice that comes from the top of the ocean and the sailors that are crying out in the tumult of the storm. And at the same time, there's a spirit that comes from the bottom of the ocean that says all is well and all is held and all is sustained. And part of the human experience is to be able to hold both as a way of being fully human. I'm just thinking of this quote from Jung that I think kind of backs up what we're all saying, where he talks about working with people who are dying and watching their dreams. And he concludes that the self, the deep part of the psyche is profoundly uninterested in death, that it sort of is a little bit of a non-event. And again, there's this sense that what's going on in the surface may seem quite tumultuous, but at a deeper level, things are just unfolding as they need to. Well, I think coming back to the idea of the lightning struck tower in Taraki 16, there are many ways of interpreting that. I mean, in this image, if some are familiar, there's a tower on top of a mountain and perhaps it has one or two windows and there's a golden crown at the top. Often there's a lightning bolt that's struck it and you'll see a male and female figure that are falling through the air or ostensibly down into a fertile field. One of the ideas about the top of the tower being exploded off of the structure is the idea that certain events both internal and external depose the power of the ego and its ability to isolate itself from life through constructs of thought and perception and fantasies of limitless power. That events, such as we're experiencing right now, cause the ego to have to feel small and vulnerable and cast out of its certainties. And that's an opportunity for transformation for many of us and a transformation that we might not choose and given the opportunity in an easy way, but it's a transformation that we can find ourselves thrust into perhaps with a willingness to embrace it.