 604. And let's start by approving the July 20 minutes and the July 22 agenda. I need a motion. Individually or together? Together. I move both of them. Okay. I'll second. Any discussion? All in favor? Whatever that is, yeah. No, that's not the agenda. They're on the city website. I do not have any physical copies. Okay. All right. So any public comment, not about the camping city camping memo and policy discussion? All right. I want to recognize At the last meeting and that's why I wanted to see the minutes whether it's recorded that I raised the fact that these warnings for these this Commissions minutes meetings have to be posted at city hall and in two other places and That hasn't been being properly done And I thought it would be sufficient to raise it two days ago. But then today this meeting doesn't meet the threshold of Quarantine and emergency meeting should have been a special meeting and required 48 hours notice with It posted at the town hall the town clerk's office either the glass Case in this hallway or on the in the town clerk's office on his bullet board in In order to have an official Or warrant word meeting and when you don't do that It puts the decisions and the need it doesn't give the opportunity of public to be Even the news got it wrong and just get reported this as a 6 30 meeting. So Folks that Should be taking advantage of public comment period are not here Until after the public comment period ends. Okay. Well, thank you for letting me know I did record that in the last minutes. It does say that you had said that needs to be printed out This is Clearly our error, you know, if we were I I'd thought we were advised to use the word emergency. I didn't know the word was special So we can look into that for sure And figure out how Things get posted. I'm Not sure how that happens Um, anyone else public comment. Okay. Thank you. Um, all right. So we are here tonight to talk about the city camping membo and policy again We got together and just a few days ago And um heard about the the proposed policy I want to reiterate that as commissioners we all care about people. We all care about parks And it's also our responsible Responsibility as commissioners to be stewards of our parks and um and look out for the resource itself A unique ecological communities and wildlife and trails and infrastructure and also the health and safety of people and and using our parks So, um Tonight I would like to um back up a little bit from the proposed policy and just State the what I understand as the current status, which is no camping is allowed in our parks per the city ordinance and um if camping does occur, which does happen and has happened, um, it is Quietly noted and essentially is you know, there's a decriminalized actions of what what's happening um and I think the proposed policy Is to legitimize and allow camping in certain areas of parks if homeless and Includes more detail and and steps around what staff actions and community actions would take around decriminalizing homelessness um I um Want to focus on the legitimized piece of in terms of where camping would happen would not happen What would be okay not okay? What kind of mitigations we could put in place in terms of time periods or education Of people camping or of the community um And and things like that. So I think it I'm thinking it might make sense to um Start kind of with a blank slate. I think and say like if we're thinking of our parks And the areas if we have if we're going to accommodate homeless people in our parks What places would you know just brainstorming be potentially on the table? What places should totally be off limits and kind of use that to develop the parameters around You know specifying the policy from there Does that sound okay to folks? okay, yeah, I I I would like to say I want to have we're a long way from yes. I feel like I'm a long way from yes That I want to have this discussion to see if there's any way we can get to yes Just so I don't want to assume that we're that we're going to head down the road of defining these areas that are off Limits as though this was happening right and we have to figure it I just want to make be clear that I'm not there at this point Maybe I will be later, but okay not there as in Like period. Oh, you don't you don't support the draft policy. I don't support the draft policy right now You know as is You know if we get to the point where Well, I mean, I don't think that Cameron's not gonna I don't think that Cameron here by herself is gonna um Agree to anything that we suggest tonight um And but if you know I if we get to the point where we have enough in there that I could say, okay, I'm comfortable with this uh provided Conditions are met, you know that that we come up with something along those lines that makes sense Yeah, sure and I would say my goal for tonight in having this discussion I think we're gonna still have gaps or information that we need to fill You know what is an appropriate distance from streams? What is You know those types of parameters that are going to need to be defined if we define ecological communities Where are they? What does that mean? So I think we can begin that's kind of when I wanted to like put the put the policy aside and just think like We're looking at our parks. What would be potentially appropriate? What's not appropriate? um and see If we can find some kind of space where maybe this would work under certain conditions. Maybe it doesn't work at all um and Just figure out how we move forward it might What I anticipate is we're not going to decide like here's what we need right now We're going to decide here are some conditions. We need to learn a little bit more. Let's meet again and then Put together so you are aware that the policy does state that there are certain conditions that You know if if they were mad let's say there was trash around a campsite or a tent was You know right next to a waterway that there Would be mitigation action taken You know whether that's you know telling the person to leave or just asking the person to move to it So, I mean, you know, I've read the policy and I think that actually it's you know as as far as You know, I'm concerned. Um, I think it's a really a solid First step and You know, I mean there are so many details that we could get into And and I think that this is an emergency This whole pandemic is in an emergency and and I think that You know the the homeless population isn't going to destroy our parks overnight And so I think there are certain steps that we can take to say hey, we're gonna be we're gonna You know play the ball game and be team players with the rest of the community and and let's just see where this goes and then You know if a month from now We see that the parks are being trashed then we can take an alternative course, but you know to me our clear authority is We can determine what parks might fall into this policy and what parks might not and certainly we can ask the the city manager's office to Um adjust the draft policy, but you know in my eyes, we can't like Say You know, we don't approve and then the policy is dead. You know, I think that's a decision Oh, yeah, well the policy. Yeah, we don't we don't have control over the policy for sure And and you know Also to note that um, I think the chief has made it clear Scenario we decide We go through the evening. We decide we're not comfortable. We don't want camping in the park camping the park still occurs Right. All right. Okay. The chief has made it clear. He's he's he's going with his Reading of that of that circuit circuit district circuit case and he's not You know, he's we aren't going to call the chief and he's not going to come kick him out Or we can call the chief, but he's not going to come kick him out. I guess is what i'm saying Regardless of what we decide unless I mean he'll he'll follow the letter of the of the policy But do you understand what i'm saying is that I think well, I think that's the part that we don't have control over So what that how the chief responds or how other people in the community respond? That's not our We might have opinions, but that's not really our right. Well, that's why I'm concerned that if we you know, if we really Like dive into the weeds here and say, you know, this you know, if we if we pick a part Hubbard and say Well, this air is fine. This air is not this air is fine. This air is not like we're complicating everyone's lives And we know that in the end The police aren't necessarily going to to do anything and other city staff aren't going to do anything And that I think Hubbard keeps coming up. It's like our best-loved park, but it is not our only park So I actually think we should look at all of our parks and And just sit, you know, like Our is is this okay, you know, would this will be okay here? What under what conditions? And figure out what spaces maybe are full. Yeah, anybody, you know, go there the whole thing's open Or the whole thing's closed or someplace in between And I think that's what I mean by starting with a clean slate. Like let's just look at our park system And figure out if or what would make sense in each place So I I I mean I we can go through each of our parks individually. I would almost start with the small ones That are kind of easier. I think There's gateway park I mean the issue with that one is how close it is to the river In terms of waste management Yeah, but other than that, there's no sensitive communities other than the river itself Yeah, and I would be concerned about as it's also pretty far from downtown in terms of access to services Yeah Without great there are no sidewalks or anything like that Okay People speak up We're yeah, we'll try mary. Yeah Any other thoughts about gateway I think the um, the waste thing there actually I think one advantage that it has is that it's easy to get You know, you could get a porta potty to it or something along those lines You actually, sorry, that's in the we've tried to put one there Okay, we can't do it Even if it's temporary. Yes, okay Could there be one or more located across the street at the cemetery? I don't have an answer to that right now. I could ask Okay, um What else any other pros cons of gateway? Yeah, I mean the distance from town. I think the con thinking about people walking along route to it You know non daylight hours could be potentially hazardous If we're looking out for the park itself There aren't like ecological communities there or I mean, that's pretty It's open lawn and it's pretty well impacted. It's not really near Backyard or home. Yeah Okay Um Okay, what about dog river I don't think that's a park. Yeah, that's okay Redfield, okay um Then we've got piece park That has a lot of the same issues as gateway in terms of being right next to the river I'm guessing same issues with porta potty access in the flood zone It is accessible because it's right off the bike path. Yes. That's one. That's one positive And I know there's been a lot of Community resources put into that park in terms of maintaining the garden That's there. Uh-huh Yeah, waste waste management right along the river is definitely an issue that park um, are there Is it close enough to another place like the school or another place where that could be mitigated? potentially I mean, it's not adjacent, but Maybe there could be services there On the road There's a there's a parking a park and ride just up the little slope although people would have to Swim through not weed and then cross the railroad tracks. It's not very convenient, but Yeah, on that dog river road, there's a park and ride. Okay throw a couple of porta potties in there That's state lands. We can't actually We do have porta johns down at dog river Well, the state has asked us to help address Homeless issues. So maybe the state would be amenable to adding porta potties to the park and ride As you know shared solution Yeah, I mean it would need to be fairly close to peace park for people to actually actually use porta potties are not sanitary There's no hand washing facilities. We're in a pandemic So I've been continually raising that issue that trailers was I'm gonna just have the space for the parks commission to to discuss Yeah, that was for the first five minutes when you you you spoke and then I opened up the rest of the meeting um And so I'm um Let's see. So you can't get hand washing stations. I've seen them on construction sites It's just not your typical porta potty. It's a little extra. Okay. What about the like the I mean, it's mowed lawn. It's a garden It's not really a natural area There would be knot weed to potentially maintain or mow to like Provide access to the park and ride, right? Yeah, then the knot weed is basically a wall You know along the path at that point And plus the railroad tracks and you know, I don't know that we want to be encouraging people to You know go across those So it's yeah, you know, most of these places aren't going to be anywhere near perfect or ideal. No Well, the whole situation is kind of it. That's why we're here So I would use my public comment to cover these issues if that you told me We'll have space for public comment after we've discussed and then we will invite through each park That way, um, I think we're my hope is that we can come to some kind of Next steps around places that we would look in continue looking into or cross off the list or some kind of proposal to continue pursuing And then ask the public for comment Okay gateway peace park How about blanchard Blanchards just surrounded by houses. Yeah. Yeah, and there's already, you know drug paraphernalia found up there It's just and I don't know and I don't want to See that assuming that the homeless population is going to be using drugs, but there are issues not a good already that make it not Great for me. I think most importantly The only area that's campable the flat area is the playground Also, and I don't think we should be infringing on the playground Yeah Okay, yeah I don't think you can get yeah, I don't think you said the tent right like uh The only place you could get or and the playground is the only flat place which is already Okay Then we've got um mill town Is that what it's called mill town mill pond Right on the river right on the river Oh, that's that's the canoe input a lot of space. There's no space there. Yeah Jack McCullough last night Yeah Of exclusions Yeah, um Okay um Then we've got Hubbard and north branch. I'm missing one one two three four What are we missing? That's the that's what that's it. That's it. Well, this is the one over by the river The one on the other one another one in the meadow neighborhood Oh that little like that little pocket bench area It's surrounded by houses. Yeah, what's that one called? Spring street park, maybe That's probably a spring park summer summer summer street park there's also Stonewall meadows but that's way out there up Berlin street and Alec would probably be a better person answers. I don't know if it's land that the city owns Are allowed to call it a park per the the stonewall meadows Homeowners association or what but I I would prefer to leave that. Yeah Which we do not manage It's it's a park Is that Okay Alec and his staff maintain it. Okay I thought when he said he maintained it that it was Not necessarily an obligation or uh under the well, I think the the question is around the The recreation path the fact that he does a lot of maintenance along it, but it's not a park And I think that would be a future discussion of how we want to approach it Um Could confluence park be part of this solution Um It's on the river waste management issues along the river and another thing I didn't mention for the other sites along the river I mean, I know we'll do what we can to encourage responsible waste management Hopefully providing receptacles, but I also think by having something right on the river You're just increasing the risk of dumping in the river The one positive of confluence is I believe the transit center has a public restroom I don't know if it's open 24 hours Okay, so Dog rivers recreation gateway Hubbard milton north branch piece turn table park Which is the one by like the nature conservancy. Yeah, I don't I don't think there's any lawn or place to put a tent on that It's just the turntable Okay, so there's Harrison street, but that's I think that's a wreck field Yeah, that's a wreck that's honors Um, so it sounds like we've crossed off blanchard milpond stonewall meadows um turntable park I think urin is not is just a little shelter um summer street, um Is confluence park a possibility if there were waste management or trash mitigation Keep them open But maybe if there were some kind of facilities provided trash and restrooms Yeah, I mean there are there are already individuals using out there. I don't know if they're you know homeless or right, but um It's it is right downtown you know, I think My eyes it would be helpful to have people in a place where You know at least someone can have an eye on them once in a while and close to services Yeah, when is the actual construction of confluence park? Not for a long time. Okay. I don't I mean I think we've We've been awarded grant funding, but I think there's still a lot left to Okay, I think if we're going to put that on the table We should get in touch with vermont river conservancy because they've been very active in that park So I think that would be Um and just learn their thoughts and concerns and whatnot um And then we have is gateway potentially on the table if there were maybe services like trash and Um human waste in the cemetery or something Potentially in my eyes. That's like the top of my list for You know, I think the river is an issue and certainly the waste, but nobody uses it Yeah, and it's a moat space and it's not that far from town Yeah, you know, I think there's To me, it's a possible that's a strong possibility And I even think if there were issues of like people walking back and forth They could maybe do something temporary with like cones or something, you know Like where you expand the space that people can walk along the side or just You know flagging and stuff like that I mean part of outreach could be providing high visibility vests Um and the shoulders are wide there. Shoulders are wide And they're yeah, okay, so I'm hearing some good things for gateway Peace park Is that similarly like on the table with mitigations that sounds like it might be harder It's also like because it's a bike path I feel like it kind of creeps up on you when you're just like cruising along the bike path and then all of a sudden there might be People hanging out or I don't know I think the better access to downtown is a positive Yeah, that has all of the same issues as gateway in terms of Knoping in the flood plain and potential dumping issues then If we're opening up gateway, I don't see why we wouldn't Also open up peace park Okay, we'll leave those so on the table. I have gateway peace park in confluence We have not talked about hybrid in north branch. That was on purpose So let's talk about north branch next Um And save that hot topic for last Um Most of north branch is very hilly And it's just not a great place to to be it's farther from downtown Um It's not entirely hilly. I'm sure there are some places that could work There's that that meadow Sort of where the trail junctures are Pretty soon after you cross the river from the nature center Okay Is the nature center using that quite a bit though because I think that there are a lot of kids Yeah, they might be I don't know back and forth through there I think might because I think you know, it's not technically a preschool space, but I think it's used by kids. Also. There's that wetland. That's right off You want to cross across the bridge There's the most spot across the pedestrian bridge by the tennis courts That's where the volleyball court is. I mean, which is a rec field though. Yeah, I think that I think until you cross the river It's the rec area inside of our jurisdiction Right. Well, I think it's on the park side of the oh, yeah, I know that is also that's a right field That's a right field You're right That's flooded half the year There's the area There's that invasive species trail, but I think it also becomes a knot weed wall So I don't know if anybody could actually get in there. Well There I mean, it's flat. It's it's a wetland though. So it's pretty damp And it's right next to the river. Um, there's the area here where they just built the pump track Which is flat and open and not really being used. It's not park Yeah, that's not it's not for us to really discuss Um I hadn't thought about the pump track space but that's open and Would be easy to get porta potties or something into That was another area that I plugged for the park Short term, okay, um, and then let's Let's talk about Hubbard and then my sense is well It seems like we have a few different paths of like Taking Hubbard off the table and just saying that's not which I've heard people in the community recommend or Including Hubbard and I mean, I think this is true for Hubbard and North Branch both like put them on the table with some kind of mitigation or some kind of like descriptions and define the parameters Or take them off the table Um, and so I think before we like get to either those let's just Let's just kind of put them on the table and talk similarly about like what would work what wouldn't And if if something were to work and say Hubbard What kind of concerns do we have and how do we mitigate them? um I guess In terms of potential areas in Hubbard You have to get relatively far from the city center To be an area that's somewhat flat. I mean you have to at least get up to the tower You actually have to be relatively far from the city center to get into Hubbard Park because all that's all state land Right Yeah And I saw on the the draft proposal that it's High sensitivity areas Would include areas that already are highly used I think that's the majority of what high sensitivity is is high use areas Which is most of the areas that I would think Would be you know, physically suitable not saying I would want camping to happen there But in terms of lowest impact on the environment on sensitive species on you know Wildflowers easy access to waste management. Those are also all of our high use areas. I think the park And then is as you get further back into the park where we might have Some suitable area I I get concerned with um, we have a few resident bears that like to hang out there and improper storage of food could be Health and safety issue for people and for bears Yeah So I struggle a lot to think of any suitable places really in Hubbard Park And I think that's the kind of like tension in the With this is that the high use areas without all the people would be the best place for people to be and The low use areas are not really great places for people to be um Just looking at the bullet points of the high sensitivity areas It says Within 50 feet of the property boundary Of any off-site residence or business unless permitted by the owner I how I don't how would a private landowner get a say what happens on property oh on private property. So it's so Within 50 feet reading it correctly within 50 feet of the property boundary of any off-site business So that means you could be 50 feet into the park So I see it as yeah, like you could be less than 50 feet in if someone's got a yard, right? They're next to the park. Yeah, like you can camp there. That's okay on the yard in their yard Or in that 50 feet into the park boundary, right? So we're saying I guess I guess I get the intent. I just don't see how any Yeah, okay I think that also brings up another challenge with Hubbard is that there is And north branch both there are areas that are Officially public land and then there are areas that are effectively used as public land And it's very hard to tell the difference between the two Um, and so I think without very strong signage communications plan of like what's okay And what's not it would be very easy to like end up on private land thinking that you're on public land Um, and then we've essentially created a situation where we're inviting people to private land as well Which is I want to push back a little bit because the like I'm sorry. I'm speaking on time. I don't know Go ahead So, you know, hopefully the policy does address if someone has found a private land that is an unallowable space So we're going to ask them to relocate You know, and again, I just want to sort of highlight the fact that this is just for sleeping and not for like long-term camping It's just the the the idea is sleeping, right? You're sleeping in this location and that is a feedback we got from councils really making sure we changed that language So we're communicating. It's about sleep and not long-term camping locations and So are you going to consider like a setting? A boundary on how long someone could be there before I mean, is it just so long as there isn't shelter? So whether that's you know a day or 30 days, right? So like the idea is this is triggered by They're not being available shelter They're being unable to sleep anywhere else and they're not breaking any of the rules that we've outlined in this policy Which does include You know making a mess of the space that they're in So when you say this is not camping, but it's simply for sleeping Does that mean that someone would bring all their things with them to an area and sleep And then wake up in the morning and pick up all their things and go back to town or wherever No, we don't really anticipate that happening Right, so it which then it sounds like Camping I'm just trying to make sure that you know, we're talking first off We're talking about folks who definitely like I mean Alec told you on the other day. He only found he's only seen like two folks Right, but we don't have any way to draw boundaries around where they should be and couldn't be right right now And also there's no he's had no protocol to how to address those those two folks So that's like really that that itself is the problem we're trying to solve is we want to make sure that we're putting Boundaries around where is it isn't okay in a way that's easily communicable Rules around if you are going to emergency sleep in our public lands Hear the rules. Please don't break them. And if you do break them You're on private land or you know, you're you're causing a mess causing a Safety hazard of some variety or you're breaking any laws. Here's how we're going to address it So it's you know, I'm really this is a very helpful conversation to hear You know what you guys do and do not want to include that barrier because you know staff responses is on one hand But where if you if the public elected body will is to create barriers Then that's what we're going to do without them though without any barriers We don't really have a lot to lean on for asking people to leave Well, I would just say that there are established barriers right now as we speak Which is that there is no camping anywhere in any of the parks in town So that is the baseline we're operating from as that no one is allowed to camp anywhere Which is a very clear barrier And I don't think that rule currently applies to other city land. And so, you know, even now, I don't think we're necessarily in violation of the spirit of that That Judicial if we were had to comply with that. Yes, because there are other places You know, the big question is why is so like where's I get where's the line where we're providing Some space and where's the line where we're sort of in violation of I don't know what, you know, what acreage or what square footage is Sufficient in what is not and and I don't think a court would ever probably venture to actually Something maybe well and and when I think of like what would be required so Hubbard or north branch if we were to if there were like specific areas of them to say like okay and Hubbard like The ball field that's like below the stage or something like that would be an okay space or so if we were to say that That's the only way I can see Using those spaces and a clearly communicable It's not the right word Because otherwise these bullet points of like you have to be like 50 yards from a stream and you know So far from a trail and you could walk around these I mean if I wanted to pitch a tent I could walk around these parks all day trying to figure out like Am I in the right spot? Am I not? I just think it's so very complicated If I'm a homeless person with nowhere else to go I'm not thinking about whether or not I'm in violation of the spirit of a city policy I'm just like I need to sleep and and that doesn't mean and that doesn't warrant You know the city saying we're gonna boot you You know and I think that the the city staff will act and you know I don't think that they're gonna boot someone for being within You know certain boundaries unless it's like very You know malicious or not. Yeah, but especially if we said like this is not an appropriate place But here is another place that would be appropriate to go. Yeah. I mean I feel like that is Be providing a service that doesn't you know, that's not available now and is maybe a middle ground You bring up a point that I'm sitting here thinking about is that It feels like to some degree we're we're trying, you know To what degree are we trying to dictate the behavior of a homeless person or where they want to go and I don't really know You know where they want to be And I know I know some places in town where there are camps Um But I I don't know I'm I'm You know we can we can give more into this they're not gonna wear an orange vest And so I'm just want you know to what degree are we I don't know and I I mean I think Cameron's point is we If they know that the less we define it, I think you're right. It's probably not I think the most important part to factor in is In terms of their perspective is How do we get them closest to the services that they need Yeah, yeah and Have them easily accessible to people who can provide those services So as we as we're going through as we're going through So we're looking out for parks first and foremost And I think the problem with like the north branch and hubbard as I see it is that like We can set parameters around what we want or don't want but it's I don't I don't think we can communicate what those parameters are Effectively and therefore They won't be followed at all. And so I and then we have resource damage We people are like camping in like wrong areas or the bear You know places that we do know that bears pass through there And if a bear gets used to eating human trash that bear has to be put down. That's a dead bear It's not just You know impacts for one summer. Yeah have long lasting impacts I mean we have sensitive features in the park wildflowers that yeah I mean if you're not careful these things won't stick be around forever Um, yeah, I feel like the the policy and what we're talking about with the sense of areas It's all about yeah where where somebody could not camp which is a lot more Vig than where you can where you can't exactly. Yeah If we are going to do the where you can camp thing and I think there needs to be a plan and and funding and Policing really about getting people in and out dawn and dusk and not making it, you know Because the places you're going to want to camp are in sight, you know And they're like in these high use sensitive to the community and The resources areas and I feel like there needs to be more of a plan and more resources going into like You know who's going to come through and make sure it's cleared out in the morning and that people are safe at night You know, how can we not do that if we're going to say you can't camp here? We don't disagree with you But I also would argue that no one that we've found in our in camping and on our public land has been in a high Like no one wants to be found while they're camping. They want to be left alone They want to be in a safe and secure area that they feel safe and secure Right. It's one of the many reasons that we don't advocate for a single area one We don't have staff to do that. We don't have police. We don't have resources We don't have trained social workers Most folks that I've talked to on the streets say they don't want to camp next to somebody And even if we did create a space for them to go, they wouldn't go there So what we're trying to do is be responsive to the fact of a court in a different district grant Has said that they don't uphold ordinances that ban sleeping in case of emergency If there's no other shelter if their shelter open and we find someone camping Of course, we're going to tell them please go to an actual shelter, right? Or that's the alternative is there are other places that you could go But only if there is another shelter for them to go to So it is a lot more complicated than just is this a place you can or cannot I do agree that it would be very difficult to communicate Lots of land within a park, right? I think that's almost impossible Which is why the list is don't do it here Figure it out, right? And how Cameron how you know if How are we going to know if somebody has another shelter available? I mean if if if somebody Are you you know, you're going to know if a homeless person is offered a bed for the night and they decline to take it We're not going to say you can't stay in the park tonight. No, the idea is You know, it would be incumbent on us to know if the shelters in our community Have available and that's the threshold that we have to be right, okay But there's a lot of two-thirds of them that Are not don't fit into that Good Samaritan shelter and it's not even in our community. So these are on making the list of to be litigated definitions and issues Okay It's you know, as of right now, we know this to be a very small Right, so we're we're spending a lot of time on What is at least in our eyes right now going to be, you know, it could change Um, obviously houses aren't getting any more rents is not getting any more affordable in Montpelier, but you know as of right now You know, it's 20 people that Which I think we can keep it at a small level in some ways by Kid sustaining what we have which is no camping In those parts. I mean it's easy to communicate And then it's up to the city how to respond to people in those situations Um, and especially if we have potentially I mean on the table some question marks like maybe these places would be okay places um that aren't That can clearly say like this is not okay, but this is okay And it's on park staff, I guess to monitor or Well, and that's in the rest of the policy is like what had you know, like signage and things like that. So, um um What there were 50 people two summers ago And 50 in Berlin and 50 more in berry. So don't count on there being just 20 because the eviction moratorium is about to end as well You just think could be quadruple what you're thinking about So can we do we want I've got question marks next to gateway Peace park and confluence as possible places that would be okay that we could continue looking into I've for Hubbard and north branch Are there some kind of nuances or something or we cross those ones off I'm in favor of crossing them off Uh, I mean if we're taking a straw poll right now, I'm yeah, I'm in favor of crossing them off We still got more discussion to happen, but yeah I just don't think either of those places brings people any closer to services I don't makes it don't think they make it easier for People that can provide services to reach them there um so um And this I don't know that we need to go into the bullet points then If the if we've crossed off Well, the majority of the park I'm not saying we have but you know like Do we want to keep talking? Yeah, I think we should actually I don't mind that Like with the knowledge that folks will camp in Hubbard north park north branch regardless and they are now You know how I would I would say crossing it off makes sense because You know, it's it's leaving us out of the whole Yeah, like these everything we're talking about right now We have been responsible for if we're allowing it the problems with camping in there become Are improved unintended consequences, you know where camping is going to happen is happening and If we're going to legitimize camping in these other parts that we decided are well-suited Why not you legitimize camping in the north that are not well-suited? That's I think yeah, and I think we mitigate the I may think we reduce the use and mitigate the Problems that come with us We know that people will still camp in Hubbard and north branch and everywhere because they have no place to go But I think we mitigate the issues by Just making it clear like this is not okay And hopefully turn people to better places that are better suited Dan you look like you're thinking you look very thoughtful. I'm still thinking Can I ask camera a question question? Yes Can you can you tell us about your? Discussions a city city owned prop non park property and what sort of you know what discussions around those areas have been and and Any resources devoted to those areas? So, uh, almost everything else is sort of like on the table fuel. So it's all about our rep fields Around the rep facilities in the cemetery facilities. Yeah, when you really get down to it the city doesn't own that much land Right comparatively that isn't parks that isn't parks, you know, we have bathrooms and showers at the rep fields And those are the facilities that we have there the Cemetery does have quarterjons up there You know, again, I sort of recognize in here that this is a hygiene solution and that's like something separate the city or the Cemetery commission just asks that folks not be on plots or on the roads Which makes sense sounds like a good idea Yeah, you know the the rec field we're we're worried about flash flooding But that's as long as we know where if we see folks, we know where they are We know that if there if there is an issue which rec field dog river rec field or the ball field both of them Okay, do flash flooding Those are the land that we have to offer and I do also want to say that we are trying to talk to the state about Their land because a lot of the public land in Montpelier state land outside of the parks That little triangle of land out by the park and ride. That's not Montpelier. It's as Burlain. Okay. It is actually State-owned land Uh, I would like to suggest that we okay any camping on state-owned land, but I don't think we have to do that I don't think we get to do that, but I think that the city can say we're not going to intervene Because it's not our land anyways. I mean it's it's in the city But well that part of the policy doesn't have to do with us though. No, but we can make that clear Right, but I think in making our decisions of whether or not we feel that we should include parks to add the extra space there's a strong disincentive to To putting Hubbard and north branch up when you've got all this state land that right, you know We I mean we don't own but we also don't have to you know patrol and right tell people Yeah, but city staff certainly can't direct people there No, no finding people in the parks, but here's the thing here's here's my point is that in all of this You know, I still feel like this is going to be an invitation when you put out a statement saying we are not going to patrol it That's an invite That's an invite Well Yes, yeah, yeah So just yeah There are I do want to open it for a public comment. I One other piece. I just wanted to brainstorm around really quick is there's this education piece or the When there's a piece in the policy that says if an encampment is found Or an abandoned encampment somebody will go and announce themselves and post it and 72 hours later see And I would love to and and I think that is meant to address Especially people who are camped in places. They shouldn't be so if there's a if we say like Hubbard is off limits And someone camps there anyway Then that's kind of the protocol that gets followed, right? So I would love to add to that some steps to improve How they're camping? I don't know if people will follow it a lot or not, but like Steps that say like please bury your waist six inches deep Please pack out your toilet paper You provide them with a ziplock bag or toilet paper provide them with wag bags Um, you know, if it's not a space that you can get porta-potties to but I think that's one of my biggest concern I think you brought up food storage, which is a really big problem And something to think about and I think human waste I think are two of the top things And I would love for education around those topics to be part of the outreach Plan in some way. I don't know what that looks like. Thank you. That's really helpful. Yeah I'm sorry That's a great idea. Well, we're you know, we're I guess that would so we're asking that everybody Behaved like a responsible hiker that you would see an outside magazine would behave and I guess the question is will that occur? No, it won't occur. You can give people the option to have you can give people all the tools in the world And that is that is helpful. Yeah, and um, you know, I'm just thinking of resources. I mean, obviously the city is Super strapped In all of our, you know, we do have donations in the homeless task force fund and I can certainly make recommendations And this is what the council votes for, you know, first things like that I know um, alec mentioned shovels like how someone be asked to vary Any ways that they don't have right the ability to do that. So I mean, I just I also because we're talking on the record. I just I want to Remind everyone here that he is like deeply emergency. So these things are helpful. We know We feel the pressure. Yeah, so thank you for and some people may have the means the you know maybe they have something with them that they can do it and maybe they can't but then I think the attempt to educate or provide some kind of tools is helpful um, so that's all is there anything else around like that The education process or the communication, you know that those types of pieces to bring that otherwise I will Go ahead. We can come back to discussion. All right. You all have heard kind of what we're thinking. There are no decisions here Just some ideas And I'd love folks feedback. Yes um, my name is Richard cheer from across from the Harrison street field um, got a couple of points We do live in a litigious society in a litigious city in a litigious society What about the will to uh, and the original intent Of hubbard park. I mean, it's it's very clear. There's a historic record that goes all the way back to 1906 on this being wilderness And this issue was litigated back in the mid 30s When ccc came in they could have during those times built housing They chose instead to deal with the nature aspect and the wilderness aspect of that park And past park commissions always followed this with the exception possibly at the stage Everything else has dealt with recreation or wilderness And you can tell even from the character of the outhouses in that park This was always If the if the core use of the park were to change There would almost certainly be a lawsuit Based on original intent based on 100 years of park commission precedent If the park commission were to say no and city council were to say yes There would be a lawsuit over the park commission's powers So i'm just i'm warning on that one, but there's one health risk. I posted on front page forum I think needs to be taken seriously And that's tix Dear tix line disease Do you feel comfortable with people who aren't familiar with that when you talk about wilderness protocol? Do you feel comfortable with people who don't know to wear light shirts and don't know to wear long slave shirts? Putting them in that park and it just seems like even in short term Stays in parks in that park people are still looking for tix Are you referring solely to to hubbard or are you saying parks in general? I don't know. I don't use north branch, uh, but I am one of the legion of doggers Long has used hubbard and yeah, we well we use flea a lot of them use flea and tick colors But we found tix On my wife, you know, it's it's not a good idea to be camping there health-wise I don't know. Maybe i'm speaking out of hand. What's your feeling on it? Well, I mean, I I think number one we're not I I just I don't see this policy as you know Encouraging people to to go to the parks and camp. I think it's it's just a matter of we have to have You know due to the fact that we have people leaving the voucher program due to the fact that you know the the No, no the People can't be booted from their rentals. The one that Yeah eviction portatorium is about to expire. I mean people are at risk and and so Without any protocol in place for how city staff should should deal with folks that have no place else to go You know, it's a it's a big problem And I think camera is really, you know taking a bold first step in getting us to at least some sort of You know city response and I just you know, I mean I think some of what I've read in in the the media and elsewhere on front porch forum Like people make it sound like we're just saying, you know Opening up the doors and come and camp in our parks for free. It's great. And I just don't see you know, when I read the policy And you know, and I trust that City staff are acting in good faith. I just don't see that we're creating an invitation So, you know regardless of whether we enact this policy You know, there are going to be homeless people camping in our parks and ticks are going to be an issue Then perhaps we should post awareness more prominently. It's posted at the library to take awareness Perhaps in the park that should be posted more prominently. I mean, that's a good idea I mean, we have we have the we have the big boards and Hubbard and yeah, I appreciate your perspective that You don't think this is an invitation But if the media is perceiving it that way and if the public is based on What we've seen on front porch forum, then that's what it is You know this we talked about the council is that this is a policy and not an importance And if this isn't working for us, this is very easy to walk back Or make changes as needed This is, you know, it's been flexible in the planning stages will remain flexible I saw a hand back here. Yeah Hi, I'm Mary Alice Bisbee And my family has been here for generations I remember I don't remember but some of my great uncle helped make the Hubbard park and all that in the library Back in the early 1900s I live in that three prospect street in subsidized housing and I'm very lucky to have it I'm not a taxpayer present. I have been a taxpayer in the past But I'm not at my advanced age of 84 I just wanted to say it's very important what we use for language And I hope you'll be very careful with the press who is here tonight that we don't talk about policing We should talk about monitoring perhaps or something but policing is not a good word to use in this day and age and I think it's it's good that we're paying attention, but I also think I saw one from porch forum today That someone people are saying if you have a big backyard Why don't why isn't there a list of people that will take one or two people so they can use this shower And use the toilet in the backyard There are people in this community that will be willing to do that. I think there are a lot who aren't But this would be a great experience for families to teach their children that not everybody is housed That there are a lot of people who are unhoused. They're poor. They don't have the right equipment They may not even have plastic bags, you know, they don't have food. They don't have these things and and I I think this could be a real teachable moment for for young people and their families um, you know Living on a farm in weightsfield when I grew up if a tramp came walking down the road You probably invited him in for something to eat and and did what you could maybe you could sleep in the barn, you know it's We need to be we need to be thinking as human beings and treating these people as human beings not as the other Thank you. Thank you Other public comment I think uh To the your wrestling was do we turn a blind eye to the folks that are going to camp there anyway? um Wait, I don't think we're right. I don't I don't think that part is part of our policy I mean, that's out of our purview, right? That part is it's a So turning a blind eye to people who camp there I don't think the policy would be turning a blind eye. I think in Either a case where somebody is camping right within the the boundaries the city sets out or whether they're not I mean city staff are going to be aware and right, but that part of the policy doesn't necessarily relate specifically to the parks That's like how staff are planning to treat people who are camping In places in the city limits, so I don't think we're I just wanted I don't think we like have As a parks commission we I don't know that we can provide guidance on that part of the policy Is this not what I want? I'm not working on the policy. I'm talking about the concept. I want I want to I don't end your position as guardian protectors of the parks Uh in an environment where I mean 20 years ago I camped out the backside of the park beyond the seven shooting. That was you. Oh, I knew it was you And nobody bothered my tent for months on end, you know, and I hiked in after dark and I hiked out and You know, it was it was fine It was quiet. It was safe um but failing to Overlooking maybe not turning a blind eye overlooking camping innocent exceptional camping is also overlooking the waste and the damage and and that I've been for two years been trying to get the council to deal with the waste stream that's coming from the unhoused in the alleys in the semit in the church yards in the you know In the driveways of the new veterinary, you know, it's It's it's bad here and people don't walk around the city as much as I do They don't notice it. They don't believe it. They don't want to believe it And it's a problem and I hate to see that happen all over the park Um I have a question. I don't think anybody has an answer to which is the authority. You're an elected commission You're not appointed by the city council. Does your authority? Is it binding? Or can the city council override your decision? Um That's a key question that I think you need council's advice not necessarily the city's council, you know But yeah, you you can access a little To to assess that The downside of that is that if if and when litigation happens both the city and the park commission is going to be named So You raised a real key point if if you're trying to solve the problem without potentially damaging the parks uh I would encourage you to look broader than As citizens of Montpelier look broader than The park lands and help shape this thing don't take for granted that the exclusions are Gospel those were arbitrary those were they're not supported by the email thread that I collected from all the That you know One or two people put those exclusions in there, you know the 50 feet off the multi-use path precludes confluence park. It precludes Uh Gerton park it precludes peace park those are all within 50 feet of the so Don't take for granted that the exclusions would hold up in court or that they should be abided by as you make your recommendations on the policy Um I I think most people are unaware of the current waste and trash impacts the folks the parks department Isn't mowing confluence park which is causing the folks the home unhoused folks there to throw Crap over their shoulders because it disappears instantly into the weeds The piece of land behind 32 main behind the parking lot against the river The weeds are five six feet tall. So the dog walkers aren't picking up after their dogs But that's an ideal spot for a couple of tents, you know So I Help invent i'm asking you to consider helping invent some of the solutions if indeed you are going to take a conservative protector status and say Hubbard won't work except possibly A cluster of six tents or conistoga huts with On the condition that the city provide a flush toilet trailer and a shower trailer So you basically have a contained accepted piece of a public land You've handled your piece of the responsibility and you're setting an example of how the city should be handling it around the rest of them But limiting to not allowing i'm not an advocate of allowing more than six or eight Units in any one place because the aggregation and the congregation of drugs and alcohol and Hope or lack thereof Becomes a downward spiral. What do you mean by one place like one smaller area one large park? Yeah, by the idea of an encampment that would have let everybody shovel to is is Anathema in fact, I don't even think the shelter of 30 60 beds works Uh, I mean I've been recommending it in detail last night at the council meeting 6 to 10 6 to 12 Eugene organ changed their Zoning to allow any church to put up to six of these conistoga huts in And the beauty of the conistoga hut is it's secure from an invasion at night. It's a steel It's a concrete welded steel mesh Hooped over a wooden platform with a locking door and then insulated with fabric and insulation. So It's it's safe And in small clusters It's easy to provide the hygiene because you know only sick people are going to need access to this bathroom or shower so Flood plane again the email record from city staff Uh, Mike Miller wasn't as concerned with the floodplain if we allow our fire department and our police department to operate the floodplain We can't just say floodplains out for homeless people, you know, we have plenty of warnings of any flash floods We have time, you know to help people relocate if necessary Um, most of the attractive sites are are near the river But it requires a higher degree of monitoring and a high higher degree of waste removal and access to toiletries Um, this illusion of available shelter is Good Samaritan is in another city. It's never had enough room and I fear that we need to Recognize that people are gonna There are many people who aren't suited to that Uh paternalistic You know throw them out at seven o'clock. Don't let them back until eight o'clock, you know, etc um Just for sleeping not long term camping locations, uh Some folks are long term some folks are have been out for months or years a guy spoke I would encourage you to watch the video from last night city council There's a guy who's been in the hotel, but he's About to be outside again and he spoke so genuinely of the need for privacy and safety and distance and so Closest to when you say closest to facilities to me those are almost in order toilet Uh trash removal Privacy and quiet Many, you know, I'm a light sleeper. I I couldn't You know, listen to people cough all night or talk, you know at midnight, you know, and it's still feel rested. So um So plant in and out in it dawn out at dusk is not a workable thing people who are Are living on house Need to set need some safe space where they can have their privacy and not ask them to disrupt it um Not that you couldn't say This is a 30 day or a 60 day time limit or as soon as the seasons change We're going on a different clock but Um public land the state The police will necessarily need to be involved. Montpelier police will necessarily need to be involved in any citation or It's basically this policy. I feel like is a bluff We can tell you to move and we can make you miserable if you don't which is exactly what these folks do not need and so To the degree we can sanction Enough small places and even have social services help put the right mix of people in those So that all the t total drunks are not in one Uh those prone to fighting are not put in the same, you know that to me is This is not going away for years and it's going to take years to permit and build tiny houses and and affordable housing so This is something i'm trying to give you a framework that you you need to be part of the solution um Without going into details. I have recommended to the city council on numerous occasions five or six six to ten huts in that I hovered, you know four chimneys area only with trailers for showers and toilets Uh peace park maybe four gateway park maybe six gateway park can host a fire with no risk um lasting longer into the season you could even Take some hot river rocks that are warmed in a fire into your hut and it would keep you warm all night, so Anyway, i've given a lot a lot of thought i'm day to day in touch with these folks and Many of them don't like me many of them are abusive and rude and obnoxious, but they're still people and they're hurting and uh Thanks for your efforts. Yeah, thanks. Yeah, thanks. Yep. Thank you Thank you. Um, did you have anything you wanted to add it on? Okay, um So, um, real quick. I do want to say that if y'all so these The list that we have in our policy one does not actually say one place it says on wetlands waters in waterways um, and also, you know If y'all want to advise that places like thoughtful and park and gateway park are okay Those are things that we're going to look at when we're looking at this edit Editing this list and bringing it back to council. So this is this is all here and that list is here for feedback um when this goes Is it possible currently everything is listed in the negative like this these are places that you cannot camp it in Do you see a version of the policy that could also include the positive like you cannot camp in these places? but you could camp in x y or z But we haven't created a map until this conversation. Yeah, all of it is done. Okay um So, I guess I'm wondering based on some of the things we heard um What are our next steps here? I feel like we need more Some more information about gateway peace park and confluence, especially to talk to vermont river conservancy about confluence um and Maybe reconvene and think about like what under what circumstances that would be okay in terms of like a time frame You know, is this good through september or october or your as is a year-round thing like you can camp in january in all these places or um You know, are there what kinds of things need to be provided in order to for this to be okay? with us or Do we need to have that discussion? I think that's important. I forgot to mention is is cars and RVs kind of that may be an area where you could Expand or provide an edge. There are people a number of people and Walmart most across most of the country allows But this are walmart is leased from heisenberg which has been thrown people out of the parking lot there So those folks are going to end up around here and So most of them are were you going to say something? I think a lot of those kind of details would have to be general policy details and not necessarily park specific in terms of You know mitigation factors what these areas need to provide to people. I don't I mean, I think any area that's identified as a potential camping area Um, whether it's on park property or not should provide certain trash asepticals you know porta-potties Running water. Well, those things are not in the policy now like I don't think I don't know that they're maybe I'm wrong But I don't think like if we were to say camping is okay on gateway park Does that mean that the city is now providing? Like stations with toilets and hand washing stations and fresh water for people to get No, no, so I don't so If and when we talked about gateway or these any of the parks we said well, they're close to the river But maybe they would be okay if there were facilities provided for people could use the bathroom Or so I think those are the things that we have to like stipulate and say like Okay gateway would be okay if x y and z were met And if x y and z can't be met then gateway is not okay. Yeah, okay, and so that's and I don't think that that's quite in there yet The city has stated they intend to not designate any place as allowed Because they they fear the litigation risk of homeless person hotel in back to me with $2,500 in cash getting rolled They fear not being able to police it or address an overdose And so they they are resisting any designated facilities and I don't see how the model can work And so if y'all actually do big conditional facilities, that would be Help to get the city on the right track I feel like in a way that they are doing that with outlining the parks and You know everything in the policy does have a boundary around even though It's mostly about where you can't camp within these boundaries places. They are the parks and the city public spaces so I feel like one way or the other You know We're okay in in in a place. However, however much we choose to define and not define it. I feel like we're Still responsible for the services the law basically that pass the martin v poise case is basically says your ordinance is removed if people don't have a place to go And that Our local state attorney who's basically also told us that if no major crime is occurring. I'm not inclined to prosecute crimes of homelessness So it really puts us in a bind which is why we're trying to get Parameters around where it may be all right and may not be all right if there's no other shelter available But that shifts the poop and trash problem to you Which already is not being dealt with by the consulates park Yeah, and from a park perspective when we need to protect the resources of our parks and Part of that is managing waste So I agree that needs that needs to be I mean, I think it needs to be part of the criteria That we outline Has there been any effort to partner with wind river waste management? Or what is that the name of the company with all the the old Cal doors with all the porta potties? I'm wondering if this is like a community housing situation where maybe it would be worth Asking whether they would be able to help chip in with some of the waste management They're not adequate Without running water to wash yourself when you're living outside porta potties Are unsafe unsanitary I'll give you a picture of the one right behind city hall here, you know it'll disgust you Um, well, and I guess I'm trying to figure out like the piece about the the resource like the natural resources More than the hygiene. I mean I I care about that, but I don't need to figure that out from the park's perspective So but I do care about like poop going into the water Is a problem And so you see what you overflow is already a problem, right? In trash dumping and trash river banks have for a long a long time been dumping grounds for people's trash um And when I do think those three areas that we've identified are the ones I'm most comfortable with but if they had Yeah, it makes me uncomfortable Put people put people somewhere where they have no access to properly dispose of their trash right along a river bank Where historically people have felt comfortable dumping their trash The ruckfields are also along the river bank, but we can't influence those no no influence those I'm not arguing that we should influence ours though. Yeah um And what about any would there be so I am hearing that um There needs to be trash some kind of trash receptacles or disposal human waste disposal Um, who's managing those facilities is that does that become That comes in burden burden on the city And our city staff not just our parks department When you say not just the park department. Is it the parks department? They are city staff They would be involved in that. Yes I mean and then we just say no I already have to His staff already have to clean up gordon park Yeah, but if we're adding three more places to that list, do they have the capacity for that? They haven't been cleaning garden park. It's been filled with urine feces vomit for weeks I think they have in the past whether or not they're they've been doing it regularly I know you could make an argument, but I think Could I ask about now? There any aquifers or anywhere where they could put a pipe in the ground and have a little faucet so people could get water Our ground water and mobbillers not clean enough for that. I know but this would be for washing For washing and cleaning if you provide it for washing and cleaning people will probably also use it for drinking Which then becomes a health hazard. Well, you could have a sign saying Yeah signs only do so much But I think those little those They used to be all over vermont where you go into the woods and you find a little bit coming up With a place where you could get water. So I just I don't I I mean, I don't know what we're supposed to do here because like All we've crossed off most of the parks for like no camping at all Some of them where we'd said maybe this would be okay The city is not prepared to provide any of the mitigation that would actually like protect the resource And I'm uncomfortable with I didn't say we're able to do that or unwilling to do that It would just be something we need to discuss Okay, so then we could have then we could stipulate we It's you know, like these would be okay under these with these considerations. So I've got trash disposal human waste disposal um Some kind of monitoring or anything or yeah, I mean it becomes evident that people are still dumping into the river They I think that's grounds to change the policy so, um, how often does monitoring happen and is the monitoring of People or the people the the behavior impact to the resource impact to the resource And I think it would have to be at least weekly Any other thoughts on the monitoring? It's a daily issue I mean, I agree with what your summary was posture that we You know, we've identified places that we feel comfortable for the possibility of emergency camping and identified The necessities, you know that we have that has to come along with camping And um, I think the next step. Yeah, it's talking about how can we get those? facility, you know, I think yeah the water the trash the waste disposal and the monitoring and ability to revisit or change policy And I've heard mention of drinking water. Do we need to provide drinking water in these places? No I do want to make a pitch here that you know, these are What what you're asking is for the city to provide services It doesn't have the resources or the ability to do The city has asked us to provide services Via our parks that we are not being provided with the resources to do and so we're The current policy in parks is that there's no camping anywhere And the city has asked us If we would be open to allowing Camping in some of our parks, but with no resources to do it And so that puts us in a bind because we have to look out for our parks and so In looking out for our parks. There have to be resources allocated For trash and human waste disposal That has to happen or else we cannot allow this in any of our parks There is 100 there's tens of millions of uncommitted ARPA funds. Thank you very else legislature can make available If feel too properly with a plan behind it That's that's not gonna happen for a while So the legislature is not going to reconvene until january. No, they may meet in september And what i'm hearing is there's currently no plan for trash. There's currently no plan for waste disposal But we could ask the city or partners to try and figure this out I think that's a very important thing if we are going to essentially offer up some park Anything square foot. Yeah square foot. That needs to happen. Yeah Another and then we talked about monitoring you said at least weekly I mean Probably like you said probably daily. Yeah, I recommended last night that they have a supervisor at each camp at each designated camp Um, what kind of training and experience is someone who that's going to be combination of another way Good Samaritan, Washington county mental health and police department coordinated So if there's a you know, if there's a tent way off in the woods Somebody's going to have to go check on it every day. Is that the idea? No, I think it's the areas that we've said are okay Well, that may be way off in the woods. I mean, well, that's Maybe maybe not according to what we discussed. Yeah, okay. Okay. Yeah And those areas way off in the woods would say this is not an appropriate place to camp Here are other alternatives that you hear our services available and try to get that person to choose a different Space or they might be doing such a good job. You say fine. We'll leave you like that, but granted Yeah This isn't probably going to be helpful, but you know, I when I When I was at UVM a long time ago, uh, they redid they redid the green the green out front between prospect and South Williams and they dug it all up and put in a fountain and it does and then they they put down um paths meant paths and You know trying to direct students. Well, of course students being students, you know, take a direct line And Go where they want to go. I'm not following this path over here and then this way to get to here So the green became this, you know, mishmash of the cement sidewalks that nobody used and then dirt You know dirt paths where the students will walk it. Yeah, and I'm just that's just You know an analogy that's bumping through my head as I'm thinking, you know that my suspicion right now is that Homeless people who are camping are are not paying attention to what's legal and not They're that's right. Yeah, and There's probably not even on their radar. I think Steve is right. They want to be private and left alone and out of the way um and so You know, there is a certain part of this that we know we're gonna we're gonna okay certain spots My suspicion is if they're visible and in near the road, they're not going to use it But that still yeah, it may it still we can make it clear that it's not okay in north branch. It's not okay in hubbard It's not okay in blanchard. Yeah, it still Sets that as the you know, whether or not people follow the rules. Yeah, we can't really control that Also, we also have the support of the rest of the city. Yeah. Yeah, we do Uh, I'm thinking about that too is not going to enforce the The barriers that we put up then our barriers are useless But doesn't mean we shouldn't put them up. Yeah, I agree So you just say you can camp anywhere because it's not going to be enforced. I mean, I know I have a problem with that I want our I want to be able to have ordinances to point to yeah Um, when we say that we're doing what we can as the parks commission to protect the resource It's not our job to patrol it, but it's our job to also in the spirit I mean, it sounds like a lot of this came out of this court case that doesn't apply to vermont Um, and in the spirit of that court case, isn't it just that you need to have a place For them to go. It's it's illegal. I that's how I so as long as we're providing Something something and it doesn't have to be any park space. It could be other city land In the spirit of that I believe that the the district nine case a different set of circumstances, but involved a component of Cruel and unusual punishment by I think denying You know They're being on public property And I don't know that would arrive to the level of where we deny somebody the right to camp at the park Is that cruel? I mean, especially if we are allowing them to camp in other places. I think that would No, if if this becomes applicable to vermont, I think that would give the city the protection that they would need legally But I'm not a lawyer Even more so if they had a hut Which was a safe lockable space that that in effect could constitute shelter within Montpelier It may not be for season shelter That needs to be decided. Um We okay, so I have trash human waste disposable Monitoring is there some kind of time frame that we would want to consider for the locations considered as this like through september Year round until the emergency is over. I think it's got to be seasonal or else. Yeah, we're okay Unless there's services that are going to be you know shelter right locations then we're okay like A risk to human life really is camping and Under yeah, this seems like there has to be I mean I We don't know what camera is going to come back with but if there are some services that that are being provided There seems like there has to be an end date to them This is an emergency and it can be re-opt. It can always be re-opt and whatever but It seems like yes, this is an emergency declaration. Alec, by the way had a good suggestion of Did you guys see his no renaming? uh This this policy Um While he's looking at that up. Yeah, is there an end date proposed for this policy? No, sorry. Okay Just as background very briefly that the good samaritan shelter was filling up During prior winners and they spun off two Overflow shelters one in Montpilier and one in berry heading church and Bethany church and those typically had 20 plus people Just sharing a gymnasium floor I think 16 and buried 20 in Montpilier and that was year-round and people had to get there by 8 o'clock or they lost their bed and So this is not a problem that's going away Right. I'm just thinking about our for the parks. Is it um Do I mean oftentimes when we've even considered changing policies for the parks? We've said we'll try this for one season or six months or something and put some kind of limit on it to revisit I'm kind of uncomfortable with the idea of like this if this were to enact be enacted You know like forever more. This is okay for camping Um when there is no homeless shelter because there's that's always going to be a situation I mean like that's not going away. Are we going to enact our own policy as it pertains to that section of code Where the curfew is in place or are we simply going to try to influence This is the the larger city policy because I think there's a place for us to enact our own policy with our own timeline and our own standards as they relate to parks and then Work to influence the the greater city policy I don't know how they interact Well, we have we have clear authority to either say There's a curfew or there's not a curfew right or there's camping or there's no camping But we do not have clear authority with anything else that is in the draft policy, right, right? So so we can we can Create our own policy as it relates to chapter whatever 13 500 say this these parks fall under the policy And this is the timeline The city can do it at once with its own policy But our policy is in place and we can revisit And it doesn't rely on the city council giving us the okay or city staff giving us the okay if we have a hard date for You know our curfew Then if we decide we want to allow that policy to lapse then we can So if we did that and then the city and act did a policy that was contradicted what we had Which one trumps? I think until there's a court challenge Our steps because we have clear authority in the code to well know to set the to set the curfew Right, you know the curfew is in place unless we say otherwise or our agent and I don't Really, I guess that would be alec You have to name an agent. We would have to name an agent Um So, you know until that's challenged and I don't know that you know, I don't want to get into battle with city council And I don't think it's city council probably wants to get into a battle with us So I you know, I don't know that they would challenge But I think we can very clearly set a policy for how the curfew applies and set our own timeline and You know the city can do it at once, you know And if their city runs contrary to what we want then our policy lapses in two months and and people can't camp in the parks I thought I heard the city say that your No overnight that your nine o'clock park closed Was moved in light of the night's argument I don't think so because there's land. That's not park space that people could use Yeah, I'm not arguing that I just say that I thought I heard that so well, that's their opinion I don't think they're gonna enforce Well, that means your rules and I don't think you have the authority to Pick people up And we don't want to do that with a clear end date of two months or three months And I wrote something up and we can change it. Um, I I kept it as simple as possible That's specifically to a section of code that applies to us Did you just do this? I did this today Just right now So let me just walk everybody through this and and you can hear my thinking and then we can obviously You know make changes. This isn't you know, this is sort of my initial position just to have us Have something in front of us to look at So basically I I've not I would not withstand provisions of yeah chapter 13 500 a which deals with the curfew Um, you know, I say the Montpelier parks commission here by authorizes the application of the city of Montpelier in Cam That responds policy to the following Montpelier parks and I listed four parks those can change or we can You know We can do whatever one The curfew in in 1300 a of the code shall continue to apply to all city parks now listed above Um, so I left off Hubbard. I left off all the little neighborhoods Um Effective date this temporary policy is effective upon passage at the city of Montpelier in Cam that responds policy expiration date is october 31st So You know, we can obviously make that sooner You know if people are just absolutely trashing The parks which given I you know, I think it's going to be a very small number of people that Do this but I could be wrong, you know, see if you're right and we could have a flood of people come in But you know, the policy has an expiration date. We can revisit it before that And to Sherman, you know Whether it's the city's policy runs contrary to to what we want whether they're not providing What we need to have there in order to keep these spaces clean But but I wanted to because I think there are really two big Pieces here one is we have their authority in the code to to to alter their curfew And then we can attempt to influence the the greater city policy um Would this so within this we this something like this could be our policy as a commission And then we could also make recommendation to the city council to say And we also recommend that you provide trash that this is provided somehow trash disposal and human waste disposal on x y and z Yeah, and I sent this to you and alec and I think I included Cameron and I thought maybe it was somebody else I didn't want to include the whole commission because I didn't want to run for albany, but um, basically I said You know the the policy is one piece and then sort of a statement of intent is another piece that we would You know, we don't have to complete tonight because I think it's a lot more complicated than just the policy um And you know and honestly if if we Draft a statement of intent that we send at the city council and they don't do what we want I mean, I think we can vote to to cancel this policy at our next meeting And say no we you know the city can we just not vote on the policy until we've seen what the final Sure, we can do that too. Um, you know, but I I also wanted you know, there's this sort of Balancing act of it's an emergency the city wants to act I don't know how soon the council is going to take this up and make a decision But I I'd like to have at least some sort of position on our end that they can work from, you know if You know if we don't want to take a position or if we want to say no parks are off the table for now That's fine. I don't know that I'll vote for that because I I want to be a part of the Not the solution but the The response Yeah, um, I I don't think that I don't think that we should say Let the rec fields and the the cemetery Deal with the homeless and we're going to keep our parks, you know, obviously we're the parks commission But I live in this city and and I want the whole city to be you know, healthy vibrant And so I'm trying to achieve that balancing act of saying here are some parks that You know, at least in my mind Our places where you know if we wanted to You know Establish this policy of non-intervention These are places where We would be amenable to Being used in some fashion um Yeah, I mean I'm just I'm hesitant to Vote in favor of this without knowing what kind of resources will be Dedicated to supporting that the park resources are protected Um Cameron what exactly is the city timeline? My understanding is the city council is not meeting again at all until august 18th So the city will not enact any of this it turns out for another month Um, which was not my understanding two days ago. I thought it was Yeah, I didn't know they were not going to be until the 18th. So I know that that was that's kind of news to me It's going to be a little Different, but you know, they're really respectful of the fact. Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, and then You know We internally are trying to take all of this feedback We're hearing from y'all and from council and from all the folks who spoke and all the folks have been talking about policies since we drafted it and really sitting down with staff and Intergrating that as much as we can so that if If I come out of this meeting with anything it's I'd love to you don't even have to vote on it But like what do you want to see it have right and how can we respond to that and that draft will be shared obviously with council and and with y'all that whenever we get A draft before then but we will be back in in front of council on the 18th So y'all next meeting 17 17 so I think we would probably want to meet before then. We're gonna have to have another one. Yeah I'm I'm out. You're out I'm gonna be away. Oh, I thought you were out like I'm not doing this I'd like to see that There's you know, I If we want to do it remotely which that I well, I don't think we can anymore actually Somebody has to be here You know if we could do it remotely that'd be great and then I could participate I'd like to participate but You know otherwise Because I think that I still have some questions around these specific parks like I I mean I keep saying confluence, but I think that we should probably like Just get more feedback from other people and I would love to have a you know It was very helpful to have this conversation and think like, okay We're maybe crossing off some parks here that have been kind of contentious and like this I think I'll like Be I'd like a good step forward And Come to the next meeting with something like this that Then focuses on these specific parks and allows the public to say like No confluence park would actually be a really horrible idea and here's why or you know, because I would hate to Vote on this or but I think it's this is a super helpful start Do you I mean have you heard enough from us to Go back And I think so we I think I mean what I have on my notes are gateway peace and confluence And I don't think that's like yes, we are all in like those would be great to me That's like a we haven't crossed them off. Maybe they could be a possibility if there are mitigations If partners are okay with it So I think there may need to be more community conversations around people who like help to manage and co-manage and Well, we certainly would need to talk to the cemetery commission about gateway because I think that's also under there for you And yeah, yeah, I think the river conservancy for yeah for sure I'm not just for confluence, but it's so close to the river like They're probably friends of the one who ski those so Let's make That our homework will schedule another meeting make a zoom available so that dan and others can purchase paid Can I yeah, yes, so with respect to the public weighing in Um My my my fiance was with the city councilor many years ago and she would joke Let's she would say that if You know if any issue solicited three comments from the public that was an avalanche of comments And um, this one's This one's been far more than that and not only, you know, I think like the rest of you I'm trying my best to pay attention what's happening on front porch forum and the comments there and trying to read everything there and And we've had several Comments emailed to us um, I've had Many personal comments, you know interactions with people in town. Some people have called me And I would say it's you know, I think we talked today a little bit, you know, it's 70 80 70 80 opposed to the idea of of camping in the park That's just my ballpark guess So that you know that counts on me that that that counts, you know having and we've had some Extremely reasonable people email us with their comments including a former park commissioner and then mono was who was five years And I I always thought she was a terrific park commissioner. And so it is it weighs on me It definitely is part of the part of the calculation. Um, one of the conversations I had Um You know as I from the very beginning I've I've said it Tuesday night and I'm still I still think about You know in responding to this to this emergency crisis, whatever we're calling it And if it's a community-wide effort um, and we need to look at all community resources Is is is publicly owned land part of that of those resources that we consider and might and I tell myself Yes, I think it probably is we do have to consider should should we how and in what capacity should we use public lands to help solve this problem, even if it's only on a temporary basis And this woman I was talking to said that um, she and she supports the policy wholeheartedly And she said, you know if the parks visit these are her words if the park gets trashed for a year um, but we're helping homeless people then so be it and I thanked her and that actually helped me it actually helped me frame My thoughts on this which which are that's too far from me. I'm not willing to have the park get trashed You know even even on an emergency basis like this I think we're gonna I think we're gonna Come to some level where there are some places that we're comfortable getting being used but using this resource And having it be damaged deliberately But for the greater good and that's too far for me to go as a park commissioner I think that's hyperbole And no and I know then I know I just don't think that there are going to be that many people Utilizing the the parks you may be right. Yeah Yeah, and I think all we're trying to do here is there is some human waste or trash I think it's also going to be minimal and so I you know I mean I'd love to move forward with this, but I'm I'm fine waiting especially considering You know the city council's not in a hurry. Um, but I just um, I don't know. I think people are just like It I won't say anything else I appreciate your optimism. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but that's how I see it as optimism Um, well, I'm I'm I don't think I'm ready to like vote on any policy or enact anything tonight. Sorry, Dan But thank you for drafting. This is a helpful start to our next meeting Um Anything else tonight? I think we're gonna call a special meeting Two weeks from now or something I do have to do that right now thinking about if you've got time That's a good suggestion Take a look at what's happening to confluence park right now. I've been cleaning Well, would we I mean, I I don't know if it's uh, it makes sense to organize field tours or we can just go I guess I was just thinking I would go on my own. I'm not sure we need a Tour or something or I think yeah, we should just go on around. That's how it's my thoughts. Yeah. Um A week from tonight today is the 29th Two weeks is the fifth I When are you away Dan and meet your god 31st through the 16th. Okay. Yeah, I'm also actually gone a lot of that Um Monday August 2nd You're back on the third I could do Zoom on the fifth No Zoom on the ninth Or 10th Evening of August 2nd, I think I can do that. Yeah, okay. I could do that evening of August 2nd Is that far enough away? I'm going to ask you here the expert steve That's far enough. Okay for y'all to visit and for the folks that Might want to look at the new draft to come and participate Do you know whether this room is going to be available on that part? I don't know Or my office will work with y'all because this room is set up for hybrid zoom and Again last night so august 2nd at 6 p.m. And a location tbd So monday The police station has worked for us Okay, um, so who's who's gonna be here in person One of us has to be Does that can be alex? Yeah, okay. I don't know if I want to just assume that alex You have to be physically somebody somebody has to be in the location and then other people can be on zoom. Yeah. Yeah, I think I can make it All right, I'm going to head and adjourn by unanimous consent. I think we're done Okay, thank you 755