 Te Uta Kato, no mai, haire mai. Gretings and welcome to this month's EHF Live session. Edmund Hillary Fellowship is a collective of entrepreneurs, scientists, storytellers, creatives and investor change makers who want to make an impact globally from Aotearoa, New Zealand. This session is the last of a series we're going to hear from Scott Cabot, an EHF Fellow who is an experienced operating executive and entrepreneur with a track record of building customer-friendly mainstream brands to compete in historically unfriendly categories. His experience includes subscription businesses, marketplaces, healthcare, internet of things and consumer package goods. Now, this session is on customer acquisition and Scott's going to share his insights on what to focus on and what to avoid. Last month, if you came or if you missed it, it was on building a marketing team and Scott shared his insights on when, who, how and where things can go wrong. You can see all those recordings on our website. I'll pop it into the chat afterwards. There'll be plenty of time for Q&A. This is a 45-minute session. And don't forget, these sessions are informal. They're planned in a way that when you leave here after the 45 minutes, you feel your nose got enough on a personal level that you can connect with them via his consulting firm and you know what he's intending for New Zealand and you can just connect directly. So, yes, as I said, we'll be recorded and feel free to unmute if you have any questions or just put them into the chat and we can read them out for you. Over to you, Scott. Thanks, Michelle. Great to be with everyone. Sometimes when we have these groups, we have big crowds, sometimes we have smaller in a way. I think one of the great things about this format is it's small enough that we can make it interactive. I really want to hear from you guys and what questions you have. I have a few pages. I have some up to just overview of some trends and some things to think about, but I certainly don't want to be talking at you. So, please jump in with questions or feedback along the way. And we will, so we can have Q&A throughout whatever works best for you guys. Let me just share my screen real quick. There we go. OK, is everybody seeing that? Fantastic. OK, so this is, you know, we've done four different workshops. One on go-to-market, one on brand, one on marketing organization. This is one that this particular one is obviously, it's a question we come across a lot with early-stage startups because it's not at all uncommon to have a team that focus first on building an MVP product and then getting the point of thinking around, well, how do we start to attract more customers but do that in a financially responsible way? So, in our business, we encounter this a lot in our consultant, in our marketing advisory work. So, I'll do just very quick background on myself, talk about some trends, some tips and tricks. We have Q&A at the end, but also along the way. So, you know, we don't have to save your questions. Just briefly, I think some of you have seen this before in these earlier workshops, but just quick background, I grew up in management consulting and consumer package goods. Long history through tech, hardware, software, and healthcare, always with this repeatable act of, as Michelle said, building emergent brands but also coupling that with scalable revenue engines. And then today, so I live in the Bay Area, I founded a 621 Consulting, which is a consulting firm of 200 plus fractional marketers. They're all experienced marketing operators from CMOs to demand gen brand content people who will plug in to startups or private equity back businesses to help them build marketing capabilities. So, that's all you're going to hear about me. Let's talk a little bit just before we dive in about some general just rules of thumb for thinking about this. One is that, and this comes up in a lot of these workshops that it's not uncommon to think, well, that applies to B2B, but I'm B2C or vice versa. You'll see a mix in here of some things that feel a little more B2B oriented. Some are a little more B2C oriented. I will say my general bias, and I recently wrote a blog post on this that you can see on our website, I think that people tend to overstate the differences between them, whereas there are, from a marketing perspective, there are a number of areas where your approach would be similar and the fundamentals remain similar, even if your route to market's a little different. So, let's not get too hung up on one versus the other, but if you have questions along the way, let me know. One thing you'll hear from me a lot is this idea of starting narrow. I think this is a common temptation in startups when you start a company because you have a dream of ubiquity, right? Everyone in the world will use our product or service, and I think that's wonderful, and may we all have that good fortune. I just want to remind us, though, that a lot of times where the danger a startup can run into is starting by watering everything down for everybody, and I just really encourage you to focus in on a couple of core customer segments out of the gate. And then finally, and we'll talk more about this later, a frequent challenge that startups run into is they get so singularly focused on acquisition that they lose sight of what's happening from a customer retention standpoint. So, you know, you're pouring a bunch of investment and new customers in the top of the funnel and a bunch of them are leaking out and you're doing it again and again, and again only it gets more and more expensive. So, just know that when I talk about customer acquisition, I think not just about getting that initial purchase, but how do we get them to stay with us and what do we need to do to enable a high intensity of active engaged customers? Let me just check. Did we have a question in the chat? Oh, no, there we go. Okay, so I'm going to keep going. Just some high-level trends and these few pages admittedly are a little dense. I will say to be honest, we were doing a presentation on digital marketing for a private equity firm to educate their companies. We work with a lot of them on digital enablement and I pulled a few of these because I thought they'd be relevant to this discussion. Not all acquisition is digital, but I think it's incredibly important to understand what's going on there and how that influences your marketing, your early customer acquisition efforts. So, one is, this is what we all know this in our guts, but I think it's helpful to see it on paper. You look just over this five-year period at how people are spending more and more time in digital media, right? And there's this inclination to think, well, it's just like everyone's streaming different services with the favorite shows they're binging on, but the reality is it is really across the board and even in a B2B context, people are using digital channels to research companies to look at content, to look at reviews, et cetera, et cetera. And then what you see this translated into when it comes to advertising and which is not to say that all customer acquisition is advertising, but it always helps to know where the dollars are going. So, you see ad dollars shifting in a very similar way, right? It used to be that you wanted to launch a product, you paid for a TV campaign and some billboards and some ads in your newspaper and there you'd launched your product and now you can see that over two thirds of media spend is digital and that trend, there's nothing in that trend that tells me it won't continue, the dark line won't continue to grow at the expense of the light line. Anything in here surprising to anyone? Yeah, I imagine these are things we hear a lot as startup folks. This is a little dense, but bear with me. This will feel a little more B2B oriented, but we can talk about what elements, if any, are truly B2B. I think generally you can be relevant across the board. So, look, one of the things that happen with partially due to COVID, but partially due for other reasons is it's challenging to scale in an offline environment. Like if you are relying on trade shows and conferences and having a table at a show as a way to build awareness, you just have fewer opportunities to do that. It's time consuming, it's expensive. That's not to say you should not seek to do that, but a digitally enabled funnel is critically important. I've yet to see a business that did not need that to underpin a component of its customer acquisition plan. Second, and it's a look, an exciting time. There's just a lot of technology that can support your acquisition efforts. You've got a wide range of platforms for advertising, for web, for customer engagement, and one watch out here is sometimes I see organisations say, well, hey, we invested in all the technology, we're done. Just flip the switch and it's going to work. It doesn't work that way. You actually have to have, you know, process and good, you know, experiments in place to fully leverage the tech that you build. But there's a lot that's right off the shelf you can use without having to over-invest in infrastructure. Next, I think this is incredibly important. No one, whether they're a consumer or a buyer in a business, wants to feel like they're being advertised to. Right? There's a lot of psychology and behavioural economics, so should we just have a reflexive reaction to look skeptically at all that. So the more we are able to customize the outreach where it feels like, hey, this person is talking to me, they empathize, they understand me. This is one of the things, if any of you were at the workshop we did on branding, we talked about the importance of leading with empathy. Before you sell anything, you want a prospect to look and say, these guys get me. They understand my pain points. So there's a lot of great technology that enables you to do this in a targeted way and it's very disarming. It's a way to get people into your funnel where they feel like, hey, this company is talking to me specifically. This could be a conversation in and of itself, but I think it's incredibly important to look holistically at your customer journey to look at where are you losing people? Where is it breaking? Do we need technology? Let's make sure we have good analytics across the board to see where people are travelling through our funnel. Like in a B2B world, like how are we doing getting from awareness to marketing-qualified lead to sales-qualified lead? Or in a consumer world, how are we doing converting site traffic to commerce, et cetera? And then the last thing, which ties to the first is, I don't think this will surprise any of you, that the sales teams that are truly digitally enabled and they're using HubSpot, they're using Salesforce, they're figuring out how to do targeted ABM campaigns, for instance, are just running out ahead of the teams that aren't doing that. That's sort of the so-what of all this digital enablement. Any questions, reactions, or should I keep going? Just of that one, I do have one. So, because most of companies that are going in for those types of technology, or obviously just that little bit more further forward, they're probably on that growth trajectory because not everyone can afford that straight off as a start-up. So, what do you think should be the first kind of steps in a start-up should do with having someone of that technology or analysing? It's a good question, Michelle, and I'll talk in a minute about some of the basics on Google and Facebook, but generally speaking, I think there's a lot of off-the-shelf tools direct through Google that are very self-serve, easy to use. I think where the question you raise comes up a lot when it comes to CRM, and it is really tempting to say, hey, we're going to do a whole RFP, we're going to look at these automation platforms and new marketo, salesforce, et cetera, et cetera. What I do see a lot of companies start with is like, hey, let's just do some, let's get up and hub spot with some basic fundamentals and we might outgrow it or we might need to bolt other tools onto it. But I generally think that's a good way to start and you can do a lot there in terms of defining audiences, triggered campaigns, segmentation, et cetera, et cetera. So, and they have some good turnkey solutions. It's not perfect. It doesn't necessarily scale, but oftentimes that's a shorter hill to climb than to say, hey, we're going to do a full salesforce implementation and ELECLA or something like that and you will eventually reach that point, but you may not need it that early. It's a good question. In terms of the funnel, I always think it's really important to think about and while we all look at this and not our heads, a lot of times where I see marketing teams get confused is in forgetting on a particular marketing channel or piece of creative, forgetting situationally what part of the funnel it's supposed to influence. Right. Like just to step through this top of the funnel, this isn't really about converting people and educating them on all the features and benefits of what we offer. It's really about just like hooking them. Right. Like when you see a billboard and out of home ad, it's really meant to just get someone to go look at your website and learn more. Right. Now when they're at the website, like how are we educating them? Are we explaining what we do and why it's unique and why they should consider purchasing it? And then we move people down the funnel. Right. Eventually we want to convert them and close the sale or retention. We want to hold on to them and upsell them. I didn't get deep into advocacy here not because it isn't important just but more because it's less of a front-end question on acquisition. So I do think it's important when you think about doing it a holistic integrated marketing campaign to think about which marketing channels are playing at which levels of the funnel here. Right. It is very common and we'll talk about this more in a minute. It's very common to really zero in on that consideration and conversion phase which makes a ton of sense and you should. And yet that won't do the work of educating people and putting them into the top of the funnel. So you need to supplement that mid-funnel work with some top-of-funnel activity. And then I'm almost, I just have a couple more pages and then we'll open this up. In terms of getting started, just I want to talk about a few guiding principles. You know, I talked earlier about this idea of going narrow. Let's talk about that a little more. I think when it comes to building customer satisfaction but also raising funding from VCs investors, I'm strongly predisposed to say, look, it's better to have great love of the product and service and great unit economics on a small scale than it is to have a bunch of people who like you on a large scale. But don't love you, right? So, you know, as I mentioned, don't be afraid to hone in because I think what that will do is it will really discipline your team to build all the habits and practices around go-to-market and acquisition. You can oil the engine. The risk of failure is not as great if you're not doing it on a large scale. And you will learn inevitably, you know, every company I see that wants to go broad too quickly tends to underestimate how many assumptions they're making that they haven't yet proven out, right? And so you've got, there may be things that you think are hard facts that in the eyes of your customer may just be a misplaced hypothesis. So I just encourage you to go narrow and test and iterate, which was the second point. And then this last one I just touched on, it is, it's very tempting and particularly like if you do research and ask people how interested they are in your product to look at like, well, hey, a bunch of people said they might be interested. Well, I'd rather see particularly for an early stage business without a lot of brand awareness or without a big community of established users to evangelize for you. It's always better to have 100 people who love you than 1000 who like you, right? Because those 100 will be people who you use to validate assumptions and test and iterate and help you learn. They'll also become fierce advocates for you and you'll use them and testimonials and case studies which is another really important way to disarm people and your acquisition efforts. And I started, I went through White Combinator about a decade ago and with an ed tech startup and this was one of the things they really pounded into our heads was spend time with a handful of customers and make sure they love everything you're doing even if it's not scalable and then you'll learn from them how to do this at scale in an automated way. And then I think this is my last page actually and I'll stop droning on. So just, oh actually sorry, two more. So this was back in reference to Michelle's question about where do you start? So SEO, my general view on SEO is that it's table stakes, right? Like this is when you launch a business you are out talking to friends and family or your early customers are talking to people and the industry or their friends and family anytime someone hears about you and wants to learn more they're going to go searching for you. They might get your company name exactly right. They might misspell it. They might search for something that sounds like your name but you know it's like well what was the name that company that offers workflow management software? What's happening there one way or another you have generated topofunnel interest and you're leaving money on the table if you don't capture that, right? And so SEO to me is always a smart hygiene investment that's simply a matter as I mentioned earlier it's not creating awareness but it's making sure you're harvesting the awareness that's already out there. So I highly recommend that and making sure you're tending to it in a disciplined way. Google adds to me I think it's a really important acquisition can be a very efficient acquisition vehicle. You know a lot of us if you're like me the honest answer when I look at Google results I rarely click on the paid ones I go down to the organic ones which is more SEO but I do think it's both Google and Facebook offer very flexible ways for very low cost to test you test a different audience you test a different message a different campaign and those learnings will apply not just for those channels but you can use it across the board like Facebook has some or sorry Meta has some really great sophisticated ways to micro target audiences and then you see like again back to the point about making assumptions like hey will and behold this message resonated more with these people than these people well how can we learn from that and use it elsewhere and then you know both of these tools operate on these auction exchanges where you can you can you know iterate like whatever budget you're putting against advertising is really just theoretical because if something's not working you're not going to throw money at it for weeks and months at a time you'll know quickly if it's worth pursuing so I think those are smart you know look at the end of the day as a general rule of thumb and this usually doesn't happen early in the life of a company but you generally want to get to the point where your paid acquisition is no more than about 20% of the people of new customers coming in like I can tell you that what a venture investor will worry about if they'll say hey you're showing me this great user growth but it looks like you're just buying all these people through paid ads that's a big watch out but I think early on it's A it's a really smart way to test and B it will always be if you do it well and with discipline and you know every day you're smart your team is smarter than the day before then it's always a way you can acquire people at a pretty efficient cost if you do it well and then yeah just a few guiding principles I wanted to close with and this is actually a good segue from what we're just talking about you know in personal finance any good financial advisor would say you should diversify your portfolio right don't put it all in you know Apple stock or certainly like anyway put it all in Peloton stock a couple of years ago I was wishing they didn't right and I think the same way about your marketing investments like when you're like on Facebook for instance what I will see a lot is the team will try a bunch of different things they'll find like hey we have these four campaigns that didn't work but this one the holy smoke it's so efficient well that's great they should continue to invest in that but you always need to have a portion of your budget that's testing and looking around for the next thing because the tactics that are working will eventually hit wear out and diminishing returns and you don't want to have to then start to discover what the next thing is at that point so it's smart to say look of our budget we'll put you know 70 per 80% of it against high performing marketing activities but the other 20 to 30% we're going to put against experimenting in the hopes of finding what our future you know efficient levers will be and that's back to this point look I think it's just incredibly important to always be testing and building on those learnings it's incredibly important that the team feel like hey it's okay to take a risk it's okay to fail right I used to always say when I was a CMO that if like when my team would send out we were always updating our conversion funnel my team would send out updates when I saw I was almost happier getting an update about something that didn't work than something that did because it told me hey we got a lot smarter today and we know not what not to do next week right so I just think promoting that and encouraging that and that's back to the diversified portfolio idea I think that's important the other thing is and it sounds so simple but you'd be surprised how many times this goes wrong it is easy to just say hey we're testing we're always testing it's great and then you get to the end of the test and you are locked in a room having a zoom conversation having a debate about whether the test was successful right and it's hard to stay objective once you're invested in something that you put your name on and put out in a marketplace so I think it's really smart to have the conversation in advance about what does success look like here if it goes great what do we think we'll do with that if it goes poorly what will we do with that but have that conversation why you can still be objective and then you know in related note it is and this is less of an issue and small small teams but as more people come in it always surprises me how little communication there is about what we learned right like if there's Facebook and Google ads we're talking about how great of a lab they are to go get insights it's only valuable if everyone else in the company knows about it right because these learnings aren't relevant just to your advertising they're relevant to everything you do in marketing everything you do in product everything you do in customer success so I would just make sure that there's good hygiene on socializing not just the results but what they mean and what we should do as a result you know I touched on this earlier it is you know back to this point about not being completely over-weighted on paid marketing you know the SEO and the Google ads and Facebook ads a lot of what we were talking about is really about the mid funnel and where I do see startups get tripped up as they'll become heavily reliant on those and they forget that they need to build awareness and build an organic momentum in word of mouth and you know the problem with that is that you don't just flip that on overnight like a good content strategy for instance is a long tail into building your brand or you know referral program word of mouth program those things take time and there will come a point where you'll start to see diminishing returns of some of your paid marketing so when that point comes you want to part of the way you hedge that risk is because you started building an organic machine a year ago right and that took time but that that will reap dividends over time and and that's again why back to the conversation we had you know couple months ago in branding like having your brand well defined in advance is really critical there here's my last this is my last point you know we talked about the leaky bucket and investors like to look at the relationship between acquisition costs and long-term value cac to LTV right long-term value hinges very much on retention rates retention rates are a real lag indicator of how much are people using what you're selling right do you see this a lot in the SaaS world where you know if you if you sell a subscription to Spotify for instance and someone isn't listening to Spotify enough when they come up for renewal they're going to say well that's not worth it I should cancel right so the best the best way to impact retention and LTV on a day to day basis is to focus on how do we get people to use our product or service as much as possible and this ties back to the point about personalized messaging you know this is where you the teams who do this best are able to reach out to their existing customers and say hey we noticed that you use our product in the following ways here's some other features you might not be aware of that can help you with what we see you're already doing or you know you said when you registered that you work in sales here are three tools we have for sales people whereas hey you know this is HR person over here here's something for HR people so keep in mind that one those high retention helps offset the cost of acquiring people and it also contributes to advocacy and virality if you have people using your product or service regularly they'll talk about it that word of mouth fills the top of the funnel and drives down your acquisition costs that's the basics of startup unit economics okay I'm done talking what can I answer thank you for listening no that was awesome Scott would have it we unshare this that way so then people will see you yeah yeah perfect does anyone have any questions or any reflections that they want to add in maybe stuff that's happening in their own business yeah I was just going to share in the chat I'll share we're just launching our online shop for a brand new product next next week and since we've been on this call I've received news that our product after it's like two months late just just 15 minutes ago I got the word that it's been manufactured so we're about to do a screen spot so it's a it's a health product that's backed by science and technology and doctors we've packaged to ourselves they are young founder she's 25 she's been in marketing and I'm really encouraged by what you say because she's the expert on this and she's been leading us and I really think man she's all over it that's great we've had oh this looks cool I'm working on it we've had it's going to be a better banner that's the last thing to get changed before it goes live this is the draft but yeah we've got videos on there and yeah we've done a lot of research and farm there's we're getting these made in the US and then sold through a 3PL in California and that should our first sales should be exactly this time next week Friday morning New Zealand time oh it's exciting it's exciting congratulations and what how we've been looking at customer how she's been running a program of customer acquisition as we've had a really good Instagram and Meta run we've got a lot of we've got thousands of followers on Instagram we've got a lot of content we've been doing for six months all about gut health and we did a pre-order for these products and unfortunately this our first run is only 500 of each and we've got 500 emails for pre-ordering these and how we are doing our the customer acquisition is our biggest thing at the moment of course so first of all we've got the presales we've got the emails that have been generated through the through the awareness raising and our learn on the site and our information on the site medical information okay but also we're running an affiliate program and a refer a refer a friend discount and so and the first sales come with a card and that's got a scannable code to refer a friend each get $20 off and you know we've got a clavio installation for good for emailing people you know it's on its way what to expect because if you're actually ill with CBOs small intestine and all bacterial overgrowth and that's thought to be 70% of IBS then these products will make you feel worse before you get better so that's something we really need to engage with we've got it we've got it in our marketing there but not hugely but between them buying and then taking it we need to tell them to expect that so yeah that's the point we're at and any feedback where as I say this this shot will go live this time this week we've got a them being made in Utah and then shipped to California yeah I I would thank you I mean it sounds like you guys have been very very thorough I think that's you know having having lived in the healthcare world and the CPG world and I relate to a lot of this and we advise some companies who who are in that similar world I one thing I will say is and this is kind of part customer acquisition part wearing my brand hat that in the when it comes to your health right like the ingesting or buying something that's a brand that you're not familiar with that's new and unproven is always a little scary right and I think there really two ways that you break through that barrier one is use testimonials and stories of real people who say hey I use this and it really help me right like when you're talking about IBS I think there's a great opportunity for people to be able to say look I was having a lot of symptoms you know I use fixed biome and it was magical and showcasing those people I think is is really important um and then the UGC is that the Jasmine says UGC so they use a different content so we yes really really yeah looking for that and then and then and then lining people yeah and then the I think that's smart and then the one other thing I was going to say is some kind of validation from the medical community you don't need them to sell your product but to have you know quote for some doctors or medical association saying you know hey I this is this is this is founded on great research I know this team you know it helps some helps break through the barriers yeah so our co-founder is two co-capt founders are doctors and gastro published doctors and the the system that that's based off is it's a tweak of another system that has evidence that it's as efficacious as antibiotics for the for quite serious and expensive antibiotics for the for SIBO so yeah it's it's um we've got a pretty good scientific base but yeah and the next thing was we want to get published and get some back links and get these affiliates signed up and but yeah we've only just got products in the last 15 minutes so it's been a long long journey to get to it so yeah very that's great congratulations wanting to know how it goes yeah other questions um I have a question here on the Scott oh hi um so um I'm a little bit more focused on what not to do in marketing since um train I'm I'm one person company I'm running a company in the that produces date spread um so I'm quite in a few supermarkets includes a new world but I struggle with my marketing I don't have marketing background and I do it all myself and for me that would be really helpful to hear what not to do because I'm attending all these workshops and they talk what to do yes fine I understand I need to do this and that but what are the mistakes like you said one of the common mistakes for startups is to go broad that's fine that's a lesson for me I need to go what else what are some other things to keep in mind and not to do yeah I would say in general I would resist the urge to try to do too many things at once and also to over invest in marketing and look if you're going to need some resources to help you with some of the execution and you can do that with you know you can find some contra like a contractor to do Google ads and SEO for instance that kind of thing but um I would focus on you know get get the kind of the middle of the digital funnel enabled well like do we know how to reach out to people and do we know how to try to convert them and maybe you hold off on the top of the funnel awareness building because that's that's just more work and less measurable but I think that you know as I mentioned like SEO as I have this notion that it's just like table stakes like you'd be you'd be making a mistake not to get at least the basics in place and I I think that's probably a a smart place to start because I also think the as I mentioned earlier the learning you'll get from you know even just a very modest investment on Google or Facebook will will help you think about where you want to go next and I think that's smart before you you know before you over invest like we when you're really small you want to avoid spending a lot of money in marketing that's not against a high return that will come a time where you have to be willing to do some things that are lower ROI but that feels a little premature I might also think if you think you're ready for this think about finding a resource to help with some basic PR on a contract basis you don't need to hire a full-time person for those yep yep makes sense all right thank you sure I hope that's helpful Julia nice to see you again Julia and I had a side chat after our last workshop anyone else have questions Scott I was reluctant to come on this call because you're talking about something that I am phenomenally weak on and I have been really encouraged by some of the things you've said around are people loving you and you know I'd say you know I'll just realise all the stuff I'm really terrible at and in the team I'm the last one that should be on the call however it's recorders which is fabulous and you know you talked about so we are loved by you know a small group of people a couple of hundred people maybe 300 and as we've grown so we're a membership base and as as we've grown all our our gig is around diversity and so when we started off the diversity was this big and now we cover 70 plus industries and professions the youngest members is 19 oldest has been 70 for 52 percent female 14 percent Maori 10 percent other and 76 percent Pakeha and you know people tell us about beach head and so forth and it's just like how do you get a beach head when you're dealing with that and diversity is our gig and our process is is deep personal development and it's really hard to go out and talk openly about our work and so we haven't and we are also the first of its type in the world and we've had nothing to copy so we haven't said anything we've never done any marketing and we thought as time went on it would get easier as our membership grew but it hasn't and we've done we've been working hard the last 12 18 months to really start digging into what we are achieving getting some metrics learning what impact we're having and all that sort of stuff and we are about to emerge hopefully in the next by the end of the year with a new lock and new messaging and so forth the question is this so membership base our average member stays with us for seven years and longer long this has been with us for 15 years and when they when I say stay with us as actively involved but people stay involved indirectly for long as well so the testimonial part what would you what is the best way for people is it written is it video is it now would you for it it's a personal and professional development leadership program and I don't like to use leadership and we've never used it because I don't believe in leadership okay but we've been told that we need to use leadership because that's what the market recognises got it so a couple of quick thoughts thank you for the context that's very helpful a couple things first of all I you know in the there's this notion back to this thing about about personalised campaigns and this notion in the B2B world right now at ABM account based marketing this idea of like well let's pick out a segment and do an end to end you know highly customized marketing campaign for them and one is I think that might be understanding of a lot of diversity I think that building out that muscle might be smart pick you know two segments or three or start with one and just build that machinery understanding that you're not stopping there you'll reapply that to others like back in my SAS days with Prezi it was a presentation software we marketed to a lot of different functions and we saw it was probably more towards sales and marketing but we saw this niche opportunity with HR professionals so let's get to know them really well and figure out how to build a campaign that serves their needs and we'll we'll work out the kinks and then use that for marketing and sales I think that's that's one to your point and testimonials it does not have to be high tech like you literally could ask people just like use your webcam or turn your phone on yourself and answer these three questions in one minute you can take that video and cut it up and then you can also create still ads that you can use on Facebook or and your quotes out of that like you all the the verbiage that comes out of those testimonials you can repurpose so like you know in Hazel's case like I was advising a company in the gut health space and they had this really passionate community of type two diabetics who they were trying to reach and that all these videos of people saying this changed my life here's why and so we put we'd make video ads on Facebook with those you know by editing those videos we'd also do still photos with quotes then we'd have quotes rolling on the website you can take that content and do an awful lot with it and I would not worry about thinking oh we have to have a professional shoot in the studio I think in many respects it feels more authentic when it's just really low fidelity and someone's home on their on their phone isn't that helpful yeah it really is great it really is because a big part of what what we do is about authenticity and people forget that authenticity off it doesn't look that good that's right and it and it I would keep that in mind I would keep that in mind like a slick high production value video might actually serve the opposite purpose like oh it feels like someone's just advertising and we get feedback from people when they say I go along to the chamber of commerce and everybody looks flash and I come along to collective intelligence and everybody looks like ship and you know we because we deal with real stuff and real stuff is not flash yeah you're dealing with real people and and yeah that's right it's real life that's like let's not try to shine on it thank you no I love that question well thank you all I have to have to run to a family commitment and unfortunately better morning I thank you I really enjoyed you all had great questions I'm glad you're immersing yourself in these topics and if you have subsequent questions don't hesitate to here I'll put my email in the chat and don't hesitate to reach out this is a it's a topic I hold near and dear to my heart there we go perfect thanks Scott thank you so much I enjoy speaking with all of you and I'll leave this open so people can grab that information off thanks Michelle okay bye everyone have a great day