 Alex 453 that is the sacred toll free call in line here on the live Sunday edition of free talk live with mark and Stephanie That's right. We are live on a Sunday evening. I know that that just doesn't seem very common But it is true. You may call in at 855 450 free Normally we take Calls on everything, but we're going to be talking to Stefan Concella and Stefan has an unusual pedigree. There's a lot of talk going on around about Intellectual property out there and Stefan Concella because of the recent sopa and Pippa thing. That's right. Stephanie out there And you are an intellectual property lawyer I am a patent attorney and IP lawyer for about 19 years now So, you know a lot of people have been talking about the the sopa thing is I was watching I was watching CNN today, and I don't know if these commercials are misplaced I've heard sopa was shelved. It's never coming back and all those sorts of things But there was a sopa ad two of them as a matter of fact on CNN today talking about there are foreign people stealing American products and You know, so this was a pro sopa. Yes. Wow. So what do you think about that? I Wouldn't assume that it's dead right now I think my guess is if it comes back, it'll be under a different name But it'll just come back under, you know a different name These two current bills of course have different names sopa stop online piracy act and Pippa the protect intellectual property act Each were themselves Spawns of one that went down to the feet about a year or two ago called coica combating online the French written counterfeits act Yeah And there was one passed in 2008 under George W. Bush called pro IP act Which actually gave the Justice Department a lot of the powers they have now to stop Terrorism and that is what they used just two days ago to have FBI agents swarm into New Zealand I kid you not an arrest for people for copyright infringement in the United States How do they do it? How do they how do they go into sovereign countries with a police force and in sweet people up? Well, they they got the permit they got the cooperation of our poodles in New Zealand and Hong Kong and a couple of other countries because you know We're the the big dog wagging the tail But it's of course it was literally the FBI doing it and there's actually another student a student in Britain Who has been ordered to be extradited to the United States for having a link on his website Which linked to another site which had allegedly pirated copyright copyright up allegedly pirated content. So I've heard about that one Yeah, yeah, the United States is notoriously always been about the worst country in terms of asserting its laws Territorially that is in other countries are antitrust laws our money laundering laws And now our copyright and IP laws So What do you what do you say to people because it's my understanding you're you're against intellectual property? You've written a great meal many articles Against the idea of intellectual property. What do you say to somebody who says well? they're stealing American products American companies are coming up with these movies and and These songs and and these computer programs and people that are using them and sharing them. They're stealing Well, I would say that I mean this is actually the the problem with the opposition to sopa and sepa Is that most almost everyone you hear that opposes it says well piracy is a big problem And of course protecting intellectual property is important, but this law just goes too far and that's why That's why the law is going to keep coming back because most of the opponents don't have a good reason to oppose it if you really believe of Patterns of information that people release into the world are Ownable property then there is that's going on and we do need to ratchet up protection But then we're gonna have something like the drug war where basically you have an unwinnable war Yeah, we just keep ratcheting up the penalties and the prohibitions and that's what they're doing But the basic copyright law hasn't really changed. It's just that they're escalating the enforcement mechanisms and the penalties Penalties Yeah, just try to do I mean there's a study done by one law professor John Tehrani and he said, you know If you take the average internet savvy person just looking at the activities They engage in on a daily weekly annual basis, you know the forwarding emails sharing things online They racked up potentially up to four point five billion dollars of liability per person per year Every one of us if all the copyright law was applied as it's written Wow Unbelievable and that probably has a lot to do with news stories and things like that because I mean I you know I post news stories all over the we read them on free talk live. I suppose that's technically illegal. I think it might be fair use I don't know. I mean, I'm not a hundred percent certain Well, the problem is so this guy discounted fair use as a big expense because fair use is notoriously vague and it is vague Yeah, and it results in the chilling of speech when these companies sue you and they say like you have to stop this even if It's a fair use of fence and of course that's part of the problem so but in tipa is that would give What these laws? Let me let me just explain what they would do. They basically would give the right to The government or even the private companies Depending upon the version of the bill you're looking at can make an allegation that some website had a link a link to infringing content or infringing content and the allegation could be Ex parte that is the person who was accused wouldn't even know of this allegation It wouldn't have a chance to defend itself completely without due process And a process would be put in motion where an order would come from the government or from a court to Google and ISP saying you have to shut this website off So you would have a website up one day and all of a sudden it would be just shut down And you wouldn't even know why into it was shut down and that would even include websites that had what they call location Information tools in other words Google because Google told you where to go to go to the website with certain content That the government doesn't want you to look at So basically it's Chinese literally Chinese style firewall They would establish what's called a blacklist of Unapproved websites which everyone would have to comply with and shut down which is the equivalent of a whitelist in other words only approved websites That have approved content the government wants people to hear have a right to be on the Internet Which is the most important tool of freedom and information in world history Which is why the government and its interests are fighting against it in my opinion Well, you know and I mean and one thing's clear about so pa is it was I mean like it was a terrible terrible IP law now I'm against generally against the idea of a government enforcement of intellectual property rights or whatever they are myself, but the Sopa itself was it was you know, literally would destroy the Internet So I mean when what's the guy from from Wikipedia? He got me well. Yeah, Jimmy Wales got on and I think he was on CNN or something You being you know saying that essentially Pirate Bay were a bunch of criminals You know, I said it was poorly worded on their website, too I think when they did the blackout I think it said like we can't support this poorly worded legislation implying that maybe they would Yeah, or another version or something and you know, it's it this is how they do it though They they they bring forth big ugly legislation Then they'll get some of the provisions that they wanted to get through or they'll just chop it up Peace meal and put all the provisions into must pass You know spending bills and things like that which is why I'm really concerned about this because I think it's not really completely gone Well, there's all there's already an alternative bill pending is called the open act and everyone is breathing aside relief like oh Thank God the more reasonable guys like Ron Wyden or promoting open Which will be a more reasonable response to piracy Well, if we have a system where we're already extra guiding students from Britain and we just arrested with our FBI Four people in New Zealand and everyone is already liable to 4.5 billion dollars a year in damages I think that the tools are in place already to defend copyright right if if you really if you're really concerned about it I think it's probably being over-defended already. I mean what's the next thing beheadings in a public square I mean literally these guys are insane and copyright has this criminal aspect. That's why they're arresting these guys. They're calling it Racket curing and mail fraud and money laundering just because they had they allowed people to share now If you understand what mega upload did and I've never used it but they're not that dissimilar to the way YouTube, which is a Google subsidiary and This file sharing site that everyone uses. I'm forgetting the name of it now You know people can share big files with each other Dropbox and those kind of things I want to ask Stefan when we get back. It seems like what happened to mega upload was Really similar to what sopa allowed and it happened anyway without it passing Stefan. Please hold the line 855 450 free if you've got any questions on intellectual property Stefan can answer them for you 855 450 3733 People ask me Tim. Why did you start verbal surgery? Com well, it's easy I started making these podcasts to make you feel better right now That's right from the tops of the Himalayas to the bottom of the deepest seas. That's right These broadcasts go out to everywhere on the planet and most importantly deep inside of your brain to make you feel better Right now and isn't that what it's all about verbal surgery dot-com check it out today 855 450 free that's the sacral toll-free column line here on the live Sunday edition of free talk live with mark and Stephanie We've also got Stephanie can sell a IP attorney on the line here patent attorney But before we get back to him, do you not have enough time to read books anymore? 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So we were talking about Pippa and sopa which may have may have died an ignominious death, but they're trotting out something new called open Well, that was proposed by Ron Wyden I don't know a month or two ago as an alternative, but it's pretty bad as well It has a lot of the same it doesn't have the DNS working provisions which Which even sopa has apparently dropped for now, but you know the profit these things are Let me give you a little history of what happened here We get in the late 1990s under the Clinton administration. We had the DMCA the digital Millennium Copyright. Yeah And that was yet another attempt to stop the growing threat of piracy This is the dawn of the Internet and then under Bush I mentioned the pro IP Act which also expanded the powers So they're always trying to ratchet up their attempts to stop what they call piracy and counterfeiting Which normal people call copying and false sharing and learning right in competition But under the DMCA and I was a new practicing lawyer at the time We had to learn these new provisions and what happened was It had terrible provisions in there. They had these provisions that banned anti-circumvention technology in other words if some Copyright holder adopts a technological measure to try to protect their copyrighted work like a DRM provision or something Then if you try to crack that okay, or you try to make or sell a machine They had the capability of cracking that it was basically in a sense to own or sell that device Now we all know what these are called. They're called computers. I mean Every computer now even an iPhone probably could be programmed to hack and decrypt these files So Lying in that provision is the ability of the state to declare illegal every computer on the earth Because it's potentially could be used to get around Am I so long? Yeah. Yeah, of course. Yeah, you know, you see you see how these things can really be used Selectively, you know, because if everyone is a violator then who are they going to go after first? Well, it's the ones that get on the bad side of whatever officials are prosecuting these things, right? Absolutely, absolutely, and that's the danger of this. It makes like saying every gun every gun could be used for crimes So guns are outlawed. It's the same idea behind that as well and but in the DMCA some of the People that were a little nervous about it. They didn't really realize what was going to happen. They insisted that we put in this Safe Harbor provision. We said look if you are a website or an ISP really ISP It's what they talked about internet service providers or online service providers If you have users like that log on and they post material like a comment on a blog or something like that Should the website that posted be liable for potential copyright infringement Liability get that if the material is copyright infringing or defamation Liability which in my view defamation is yet another type of intellectual property, right? And the law said and look you're not a publisher In other words, you're not you're not the one responsible for it if your user puts it on your website As long as you timely response to takedown notices This is why we have the DMCA takedown procedure that everyone is used to now, but if we hadn't had that in place it would have probably not allowed YouTube or Facebook or Twitter to ever even arise because they would be killed by lawsuits and that's why the RIAA and the NPAA had been fighting Safe Harbor provision ever since the beginning and even though it's the one thing that allowed the internet to thrive Thank God and now with sopa and tippa even if you take out these The provisions everyone says are the bad parts you still would basically override safe Harbor of Of the DMCA by basically removing due process and changing the burden of proof If you just make an allegation then the site can be taken down Stefan we're going to take some calls here. We've got Chris in California calling in Chris. You're on free talk live with Stefan Cancelo What's on your mind? Hey, I was just doing some thinking about The whole intellectual property rights issue has actually been something I've been thinking about for a while It seems to me and I was just wondering if I can get your guys's opinion upon it that the 14th amendment about equal protection and It seems to me that a lot shouldn't be made unless the government Or the people Could ensure equal protection under that law Yeah, I think intuitively everybody knows that this is you know, so that corporations can go after, you know Little people regular people, you know for You know so-called infringements, but you know, I don't think the government according to the Constitution has the right to even make a law Unless they can ensure equal protection under it You know, if I if I've got a guff with Sony or before Sony, you know, the government should be able to Use all of its resources in order to give me the same, you know Protections as it would for corporations. Thanks for the call Chris Stefan. I Think that's not a bad point of it with Stephanie mentioned earlier about selective enforcing the laws It's what results from these very broad grants that are only Enforced at the discretion of prosecutors against, you know, unfavorable characters. I mean, they're not going to go after Google They could but they're too popular. So they're going to go after Mega uploads of which there are, you know, a hundred other sites out there that do the same thing that mega uploads does But for some reason they go after after them and every once in a while They'll go after some mom whose kid has downloaded some stuff on the on the internet and these awards that they give are Incredible you're talking about, you know, $300,000 for 16 downloads I mean, I don't know what the math is on that but $20,000 a song. Maybe they're overcharging. I Actually think there's there's two pretty good cost And by the way, I do believe that if so pa and Tepa had been enacted They they very likely could have been of Overturned as unconstitutional after four or five years of police state Terrorism of people sure, but we would get acclimated at that point It's pretty clear it's against the first amendment and I would even argue that there are two really good arguments constitutional arguments against copyright law as it currently currently exists number one is the first amendment number two is the eighth amendment the eighth amendment bans unusual and Excessive fines and unusual punishments and you could argue that 4.5 billion dollars a year liability are these these fine people get Violates eighth amendment which was passed after the Constitution in the copyright clause First amendment which has free speech. It's clear that the copyright law infringes free speech And therefore the first amendment step and hold the line if you would please hold the line eight five five four five zero three seven three three free talk live Are you looking for camping hunting or shooting gear man venture outposts calm carries knives ammunition scopes binoculars laser Sites fish finders and boating equipment from manufacturers like aim point Bushnell Otter box crimson trace k bar Remington's dream light Winchester and more man venture outposts calm family owned and members of the better business bureau prices so low Some can't be advertised get an additional 5% off with coupon code FTL get it quick get it from man venture outposts calm Free talk live 855 450 free That's the sequel toll-free call-in line you can call in and talk to Stefan Concella about Intellectual property questions whether it's a sopa Pippa Whatever it has to do with intellectual property. 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Yes, stuff and I have a question for you In light of the mega upload case that we have discussed on free talk live this week as well as a little bit with you here tonight I'm just wondering How you know if Sopa and Pippa were to pass it It said that they would allow things like this to happen and you know these more severe Prosecutions of so-called violators, but it seems like the government is already doing these things anyway without Sopa and Pippa being Laws so I guess my question is you know, how would it be any different if they passed if they're already going to do this stuff? I Mean in a way, that's a good question. How much worse can it get already? I mean, I think it's just a continual ratcheting up of the government's You know the tools and their toolbox that they can use against people And you know to be clear some of some of the what some of the people One of the best sites discussing this is Techdirt, THDHDRG.com Techdirt and there was a post on there I think by Glenn Moody the other day the main poster is Mike Masnick, but Glenn Moody a post saying Okay, we kind of won this temporary battle What what do we do now? Let's think big and you know, what do we say is the real problem and Let's get to what Mark was originally driving at the fundamental problem is copyright. It really is copyright This is all basically an attempt to enforce copyright It's just like the drug war if you start with the assumption that drugs Certain prohibited narcotics should not be allowed to be used or sold by by individual free human beings And then you get the drug war and if you start with the assumption that people own Patterns of information and they should have a government monopolistic privilege that they can use to stop their people from trading and Sharing copying and competing and they can use the state the force of the state against their competitors Then you're gonna get these these types of enforcement issues the fundamental problem is copyright and basically we want to think big The solution is not to ratchet up the enforcement of this not even to think of piracy as a problem, but to try to Eliminate or radically scale back copyright Yes, that's so I'm sorry to interrupt you But that's you know, that's so interesting that you say that and I really like the parallel that you've drawn to the drug war Now I wanted to mention this to you real quick I have this article here from gizmodo.com came out recently saying that the Supreme Court has Approved something that allows Re-copywriting public works that were previously in the public domain. Can you talk a little bit about that? So in a way last Wednesday, and I mean in my view, I mean, we'll see we're only a couple days away from it It in a way. I think last Wednesday was one of the most historic days possibly world history because the internet is one of the most important tools in World history to fight the state and yep, okay, it's Corey doctor who pointed out in a recent talk You know every time technology improves it benefits the state But it benefits the people more because the state's already in control So it does you know, they are already in control of things But it's the internet has empowered the average person with video cameras and cell phones and with you know Twitter and email and texting and the internet and social media far more than it has the government So it's disproportionate. So it's a good thing. That's why the states I'm fighting against it. So well most of the most of the state and the stuff they do on the internet is still web point 1.0. I mean they haven't They really haven't even moved into yeah, they were talking about policing century. They were talking about policing my space We read this article last week to make sure there are no terrorists on there Does anyone use it? Yeah, and like I said, the the the pro IP act that george bush signed Was was it was uh, you know put out there in the name of stopping terrorism because they said, you know Terrorists are funded by counterfeited by counterfeited goods and by By by software piracy. I didn't really realize al-qaeda was really the one hawking madonna videos. That's right Wow Whatever, but I think that to be honest solution is very simple The solution piracy, I believe is actually not a bad thing I used to believe was a bad thing, but that it shouldn't be illegal like abortion or something like that But now I don't even think it's a bad thing. There's nothing wrong with sharing information The reason there's piracy is because we have these dinosaurs in the media the big content industries That don't provide a good product for a good price That means if you just Louis ck who's a fairly mid-level well-known comedian He has this annual show he does and he about uh, two months ago Built a website and he put his show online And he said you can buy this drm free thing for five dollars from PayPal No limitations whatsoever. I know there's going to be priority copies But if you want to buy it from here here, he made a million dollars in about two weeks Which was four times more than he even aimed at making Because it was easy and free and a reasonable price. Yeah And that's what Hollywood has to do Hollywood and the music industry are really going to be the the destroyers of civilization if they are if they're able to get Congress to go along with them But luckily for now it looks like they're running scared You know if if a band this has been done by other bands But if a band just puts their music online and they don't go through the big record label I mean these guys have studios in their home. They can produce the music Then they you know, it's no problem to put it online I think that with a little help from uh, you know people around me. I could probably put a song online You know so at that point people can download it and if you're charging a buck or 50 cents a song or whatever They're going to make so much more than that dollar per album that they maybe get from the uh from the record company That's that's the guys have been around for a while Because most of the money goes into the infrastructure of the record company paying the the reps who are hassling the djs And doing all the stuff that's or maybe mark Maybe mark you give away that song for free and then you get hired as a dj at different Parties or something like that or people pay you to do voiceovers or be on their songs or whatever indeed Yeah, and this whole infrastructure has been built on the entire copyright Um legislative infrastructure. It might not have existed the same way absent that but the point is so everyone says well Since 15 years ago since the internet It's easier to copy. It's that's true. It's easier to copy But it's also easier for people to branch out and to make it on their own without going through A producer or a publisher. I mean look at the kindle and amazon and uh itunes You can sell your music on your own you can have a website You can have ebooks and the ebooks that are prospering are 99 cents to two dollars and 50 cents You're not talking about a paperback coming for 8.95 anymore You're talking about people being able to get the same thing essentially on their kindle for 99 cents to two dollars and 50 cents And it's not going to the book companies It's going to the author because no one ever says whenever you talk to anybody about intellectual property and copyright and these things They never say well. What about the big music companies? What about the what about the the big publishing companies who haven't changed any of their business practices for the past You know 40 50 years like they just dinosaurs. Yeah business practices always change I mean, you know, there's no more blacksmiths out there shoeing horses anymore Right and right and the buggy whip manufacturers out of business and the candle makers don't do as well as they used to Yeah, there's there's there's change happened and the dinosaurs that have government monopoly privileges don't like it Stefan, please hold the line here. Um, we'll be 8 5 5 4 5 0 3 7 3 3 It's free talk live. Stephanie and mark 8 5 5 4 5 0 3 7 3 3 I'm mark kreg head founder of crossbreed holsters. Are you looking for a concealed carry holster cross breed holsters Is the home of the world famous super tuck the most comfortable concealed carry holster on the market today Try one out and see how truly discreet and comfortable carrying concealed can be and find out why we call it the ugliest holster You'll ever love we are the standard others try to imitate get the original get your super tuck at crossbreedholsters.com Again, that's crossbreedholsters.com free talk live 8 55 453 That's a sacle toll free call in line 8 5 5 4 5 0 3 7 3 3. It's mark with you and Stephanie Stephanie tell me about the the liberty forum coming up in new hampshire Okay. Well, first of all, I hope our guest who's on the line Stefan Kinsella would consider joining us at the liberty forum I hope Stefan would consider attending the new hampshire liberty forum, which is a annual event held It's kind of a free state project event. It's from the free state project It's going to be this february 23rd to the 26th. So that's exactly in one month coming up And it's a basically a liberty convention at a hotel in nashu in new hampshire. It's got speakers. It's got all kinds of Breakout sessions. I heard there's going to be an unconference there, which is pretty cool to me Some of the speakers that are coming include Let's see carlos miller photography is not a crime. We're going to be talking about You know videotaping the police. We've got peter schiff jody emory michael cloud Jack spirco from the survival podcast. So very diverse. Um, and oh the keynote speaker is joel salton Who talks about entrepreneurship and farming which should be really interesting So there's a very diverse array of speakers coming to the liberty forum But for me people go go to get registered Uh, well, they can go to free state project org slash liberty forum And uh, just want to add for me. My favorite part is the the socializing that goes on there Free state or free state project org slash liberty forum and then coupon code ftl 2012 to get 10 off Step better get your tickets quick because it's coming up Stefan are you on with us? I'm here. I've been trying to get up in new hampshire for a couple years now. Um, and one of these uh years I hope to be there. I don't blame you for not wanting to fly Stefan It's not that fun these days. That's one of the problems. Yeah, so we were talking about Intellectual property here, and I think you you brought up something that we didn't get a chance to really flesh out And I think it's very important is you basically said do away with copyright And or diminish it greatly and I think that a lot of people probably, um, you know rear back at that They they they think of people like authors and Musicians people who make movies people who You know, I think drugs are patents, but I suspect you I know you feel the same way Most of the people by the way who rear back at that also download music and stuff without paying for it, but Read news stories and things like that for free. They do it's natural. They do it's natural. Look. Look. I mean, let's let's I between patent and copyright. I think copyright is actually worse patent acts like a big tax on society Closed down scientific progress, but it's like a big tax But copyright is much worse. It can be a criminal penalty It can be used for act tradition as we've seen and it can be used as a as a way to control freedom of expression on the internet And just just to go back to one thing. I didn't get the Foundation the first amendment was enacted in 1791 two years after the the constitution was was ratified in 1789 the 1789 constitution had a copyright clause which authorized congress to uh protect the works of authors, um, which was called science back then not the the arts referred to Inventions in any case you can argue that that that the uh Clear the copyright act as enacted now clearly in front of for infringes free speech and freedom of press rights I mean even the supreme court acknowledges this but they try to balance it Which is what most people that favor both try to do they try to balance these things That's why they say well, this is is important to stop copyright infringement, but this goes too far They want to balance free speech rights, right with the the suggestion is that the government that somebody in the government knows What the right balance is and that's very strange and it you know either it's stealing or it's not stealing Either the person the progeny of the person who created the wheel deserve a check every time somebody drives their car Or they don't and so I mean you can't have this kind of arbitrary We'll have it last 99 years in the lifetime of the artist or whatever period of time, you know Root off the red nose reindeer needs to be um, you need to you need to pay somebody when you sing that but silent night you don't So, I mean, you know, this no this makes any sense Well, and and there's a principle of legislative and constitutional law which says that you know if you have a later enacted statute Or constitutional provision it overrides the earlier one if there's a conflict. That's why for example Uh prohibition was first enacted on the country and then a later amendment repealed it I mean the reason we don't have prohibition now of alcohol is because The the amendment that declared prohibition illegal came after And the first amendment and the bill of rights came in 1791 two years after the constitution So to the extent there's a conflict between the eighth amendment which covers excessive fines And the first amendment which guarantees freedom of speech and freedom of expression freedom of the press Uh and even freedom of religion by the way, I mean this copyright issue even leads into the church I mean that you know that you have the church Re-copywriting misalits. Oh, you mentioned earlier the supreme court. This is the very day The wednesday that we had this massive sopa protest which was effective The supreme court ruled that congress has the power under this copyright clause to Take works that were now public domain And put them back into copyright protection. Yeah, so you have thousands tens of thousands of uh choir And uh orchestral works that people have been using for a long time And now they're going to have to stop using them. Uh the converse of this is just the other day james choices works Um finally leaked into finally went into the public domain at least in europe And so now all these troops and companies are going to start doing james choice plays And there's nothing wrong with this but he's a famous guy, right? Who knows what people's works from 67 80 80 years ago That we're not as big of a guy james choice We're lost because no one could reproduce it without permission And it's been lost in the in the in the in the in the time in the tide of time because of copyright copyright destroys culture Locks things up. You know, I absolutely I have a story about um exactly what you're talking about. Let me, uh I'll tell you about it in a minute, but let me first take conrad calling from fargo conrad You're on free talk live with stefanie mark and stefan concelo. What's on your mind? Yes, hello, sorry to uh change gears, but I've got a topic which I think is rather important here Uh, you know, while I think the the copyright stuff is important But then there's only one way we're really going to affect this change And that's if ron paul win I would say that uh, he would give the best chance stefan well Ron paul has been and ran as far as I understand have at least been against sopa and tipa from the beginning But um, I don't I mean they're they're constitutionalist, so I'm not sure they're opposed to copyright In principle and in fact I've got to say it somewhat dismayed me that the ron paul campaign Uh last week filed a lawsuit Um using uh, uh defamation law and trademark law against some anonymous Protester who someone who filed this fairly racist Video on youtube attacking gary johnson allegedly in the name of the mark of ron paul And uh, it wasn't gary johnson. It was the other one huntsman huntsman. Sorry. Yeah, it's hard. It's right. That's right um and uh, so I agree with you, but the problem is ron paul would return to the constitution the constitution allows copyright Um, and I would love for ron paul to come out strongly against copyright at least he's against sopa, which is good But he should not be suing people to make them to reveal their identities because they're anonymous on youtube And exercising their freedom of speech And using trademark and other intellectual property laws To stop them. I I have to assume that was a decision of his campaign that he wasn't really involved in It would seem to me like there's a creative solution to that that doesn't involve using the the copyright system Or suing anybody, you know, it would seem like they could put out their own video saying hey Guess what this guy is not affiliated with our campaign. This isn't true, you know and and see it's spread Let's take on right here Uh, this kind of runs me around paul what he does with earmarks See he he'll use the weapons in the arsenal while at the same time Uh, trying to destroy them right just just because you you know, you understand what i'm trying to say I understand but i don't agree that you can destroy something by using it Huntsman and ron paul both disavowed the video and that should have been the end of it and that was enough to say look We're not responsible for other people's the sad thing is is the way that that works on the news is the news plays the video Says that ron paul attacked huntsman then they never play a retraction or if they do play a retraction They play it, you know 50 times saying it happened and then if they have a retraction It's one time and then they stop doing it again, but it's imprinted in people's minds So they can't make they can't make the news play that retraction again via a lawsuit anyway So I don't see how the lawsuit solves that problem, you know, maybe the lawsuit causes another news story. I don't know The the you know the thing about the constitution is the copyright clause says that the purpose of this power Given to congress to give monopolies for a limited time to create as a Artistic works is to create to encourage the creation of artistic works or science is what they call it like then And there's no evidence that it actually does Especially with so far especially with taking work back into the type of thing Let's talk about that in a minute here. Uh, please hold the line eight five five four five zero three seven three Free talk live with stefan concella a patent attorney who wants to get rid of copyright law eight five five four five zero three seven three Free talk live if you want to move to the free state And you're looking for some real estate. Well, I know a guy who's really great It's the porcupine realtor Do you want a home with 20 acres a lakeside cabin any takers for renters spires and sellers too? Mark warden is the guy for you porcupine realtor dot com eight three four five eight five five four five zero three seven three three It's free talk lives live sunday edition with mark and stefanie. It's eight 55 453 you can call in Talk about whatever you want to talk about. We've been talking with stefan concella here. Let's bring stefan back on the line stefan can hear us Yeah, i'm here great We've been talking to stefan concella about all things intellectual property stefan is a patent attorney Who believes that uh that copyright should be done away with is that correct? So um now stefanie you had uh something that you found during the break Yeah, stefan. I wanted to share this with you. Uh, I just noticed an article Related to the takedown of mega upload with the you know, scary raids and people being arrested and denied bail and all that kind of thing and So apparently there are two other websites file sonic and uploaded dot to that have basically Shut down not because they were arrested or raided but because they're scared And apparently now if you go to the home page of uh file sonic you will be greeted by a message that says All sharing functionality on file sonic is now disabled our service can only be used to upload and retrieve files that you have uploaded personally and uh No longer available for use at all in the u.s So this is a perfect example of the chilling effect that the state action has on free speech And other innocuous activities and this is totally predictable and this is terrible and I guarantee you that right now google and youtube Which is a google subsidiary and dropbox and other They're talking to their lawyers right now. Are we in trouble? Are we going to be arrested in the middle of the night with with a swat rate on our houses? I mean we're like 70 76 police Swarmed on this compound in new zealand. Yeah, what I read. I mean I mean 100 like a whole bunch of hundred people Swarmed there and they arrested these four guys and there's this several others that are in danger Um Yeah, it's it's very dangerous. It's terrible. That's an obvious show of force, right? They're really just flexing their muscles Yeah, I think they are I think in the ri triple a I think the ri double a and the npa double a the uh The hollywood and the music industries and in hollywood They're probably laughing right now because I think uh, you know all these internet geeks think they want a battle on wednesday Yeah, we we really don't need this crap You know, we were just going to try to get a little bit more power But we don't really need it because we've got these these goons in our pockets Yeah, you know stefan what strikes me so much about these big uh content They're not even content producers. They're like publishers, right like the ri a npa a and uh some big book publishers and things like that It it really those are associations that attempt to represent the intellectual property rights of those of publishers I would say would be the way to describe them. Okay. Well, I'll just call them the dinosaurs for lack of a better word but you know, it reminds me of uh a person who Who is in a relationship and sees the relationship kind of going downhill breaking down And says, you know, I have a choice. I can either try to force this person to stay You know, I can abuse them somehow or try to threaten them or give them ultimatums or coerce them somehow Or you know, I can try to improve this as a voluntary relationship so that they want to stay And it really reminds me of the former. They're just using these tactics of coercion rather than trying to court their customers I I agree completely. I mean look when you when you legitimately buy a dvd or blu-ray And you have to sit through five minutes of fbi warnings Threats in four different languages. Yeah Yeah, I mean the product is actually better if you get it illegitimately So yeah, I have no one to blame but themselves. They're giving you a worse product for a higher price Then you can get for free. Um, you know, you know, some libertarians argue for example that um people that pay income tax Are doing something wrong because they're voluntarily acquiescing and funding the war machine and all this kind of stuff Now you could debate about that. I don't think it's a good argument, but you can you can debate that but The r i double a and the mp double a are funded by the royalties Received when we all pay for legitimate content because you know, the lobbying industry funded by Hollywood and the music industry So you could argue that you have a libertarian obligation to pirate content just so that you're not giving profits Do these guys so they can use to to lobby congress to to make us more into a police state So there's um, you know, most people will agree that there's all kinds of problems with patents and copyrights Trademarks, I don't have as much of a problem with and I know that we can we can discuss that A little later, but a lot of people will say oh, yeah, there's all kinds of problems with it But we can just fix it because what we need to do is we need to make it so that You know people that singers songwriters You know movie producers You know people that create drugs, you know all those folks they need to be compensated And if they're not people just take the stuff they won't they won't You know pay these folks for their work and it'll stifle innovation and that's what the big concern is It's always about stifling innovation, right? Well, that's what they say, but I mean You know the the assumption is that these laws have ever worked and there's no there's really no empirical evidence If you look at all the studies, even if you're a utilitarian and I'm not a utilitarian I don't base my principles on that but if you did You would you would look at the studies and every study one after the other concludes That there is no evidence whatsoever that these laws do anything but become a net drag on society Or or even worse empower the police state through Through idea. I mean if you think about how these laws originated back in the idea in the time of mercantilism Um, these were basically Grants of monopoly privilege to favored people supplicants of the crown You know, you would have a monopoly on playing cards in britain. You didn't invent playing cards Yeah Drive the court and so you had all you were the only guy who could make playing cards and guess what happened so They would go to the the crown and say listen I think I think of the guy down the road selling unauthorized playing cards And so they would burst into the into the shop of a competitor violating Of privacy laws search and seizure laws and inspect their good to see if the cards have the official stamp of approval or whatever And this is what we see now with copyright enforcement Justifying the state surveilling us And seizing our computers and bust busting into companies to see if they have copyright Yeah Good Yeah, I I I can totally see how it's really never been about protecting the little guy right the struggling artist or inventor Who's just trying to make it? It's it's really about protecting the the vested interests You know, we'll always have somebody who calls in who says well, I'm a photographer. I'm a singer I'm a songwriter I do interpretive dance with uh flaming chainsaws and they'll they'll you know And by the way, I do a radio program right and so do I and we give away All of our content completely free you can go back and get five years worth of free talk live You know At archives dot free talk live dot com we make it so we want you to do that Why well we put advertisements in there and we assume that we put a few enough advertisements in our podcast That it's not worth it to you to rip the ads out And create your own free talk live show that you can then serve up to other people because you're not so annoyed by those ads Plus it gets your name out there and you maybe you get other Speaking engagements, maybe get invited to things you get other opportunities happen. Sure. Yeah, voiceover work and who knows what else I mean, I had a discussion with an author recently and they were asking me reasonable questions How would it work? And you know one answer is like Leonard Reid said in the classic essay a long time ago. I don't know I mean if you ask citizens of communist russia If you told them we should abolish the state And if they said well, who's going to make the toothpaste and how many brands would there be? Well, the right answer is I don't know and and and if the answer is I don't know Does that mean you can't oppose communism? I mean you can oppose something even if you know don't know what's going to come But one of them said well what what if I have a novel and what if someone tries to rip it off and they put it on a site? You know, I just well, let's just think about it Most authors don't really make a lot of money right now. Anyway, partly because they go through the publishing industry Um But let's say you're popular like jakey Rowling with the harry potter books Let's say she had written the first one or two harry potter books and they were massively popular And she might have sold some on her site like lucy k did or through a publisher But she might have lost some sales through pirating Although I believe that probably 90 percent of pirating there's not a lost sale because these people wouldn't bought a copy anyway Sure, it's only increased it's only increasing your your fame Of the book. Well, she could have turned that fame into lots of things in other ways. She couldn't rely upon the state It's true um Stefan can you hold on for us for a little while longer Sure eight five five four five zero three seven three three. We'll uh take calls for stefan eight five five four five zero three seven three three on freetalk lives live sunday edition Here on freetalk live. We've been pretty excited about the bitcoin. It's a decentralized free market digital currency You can learn more about it at we use coins.com But if you already have some bitcoins and you'd like to spend them you can spend them at spend bitcoins.com When you spend bitcoins on amazon via spend bitcoins.com freetalk live gets a cut Or if you're an australian trying to figure out how to buy bitcoins You can buy them with cash at au dot spend bitcoins.com. Once again, that's spend bitcoins.com Freetalk live 855 453. That's the seco toll free call-in line here on the live sunday edition of freetalk live 855 450 3733 it's mark with you and stefanie You can call in and talk about whatever you want to talk about we've been talking with stefan concela and a patent attorney about intellectual all things intellectual property and his uh His disdain for them first before we get back to stefan and take some calls. 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They just ask you for shipping address and some information And they'll ship something you know an entre right out to you Usually they serve four you can prepare them right in the bag simply by adding water And you can also use coupon code FTL to get 10 off of any order that you make for a limited time It's wisefoodstorage.com coupon code FTL or call 855 food wise 855 food wise wisefoodstorage.com Let's go Get stiffen back on the line here Stephanie there I'm here guys. Excellent. We've got a call for you David in massachusetts You're on free talk live. What's on your mind? Hey mark, Stephanie and uh, Stefan um I've read um I've read your book Against ip and I've also read Rothbard's book. I've only been new to the liberty movement for a couple of months and David hold on just one second. Hold on just one second. David. Uh, since you mentioned the book, uh, Stefan, where where would he be able to where would somebody be able to be able to get that? He's talking about a monograph. I wrote uh about 10 years ago called against intellectual property And you can find it on a c4sif.org c4 the number four sif.org which means center for the study of innovative freedom. Excellent. David go on with your question. Thank you Okay, so, you know, I've uh Read and watch some videos and Follow the Rothbard way of thinking of things in a voluntary Society and I would think that in a voluntary society arbiters would go around and Be involved in protecting people, you know, I think in terms of voluntary organizations professional organizations like Um underwriters laboratory as far as means of of helping, uh, protect um content creators uh and developers And I was wondering, you know, what what do you think? Uh Uh, if the In a free world, what would IP look like? Yeah, in a free world, what would IP like would look like and would I have the right to Mark just stilt it down for these voluntary means and and arbiters to Um, you know dissuade theft. I mean if someone comes along person a who legally or lawfully or morally Any of those decides to buy my software gives it to their buddy And then they make uh, they brag about it, you know, how how would I Basically, uh Show them that hey the fruits of my labor is you're trying to take them away from me, right? Well, look, I know this is a difficult issue. It's been very muddled and confused and I'll give you a quick Here's how I look at it because I tried to I tried for years to justify IP because I'm a patent lawyer And in fact, I maybe I prefer more call me a libertarian than a patent lawyer because it's getting to be a criticism at this point Okay but, um Because the mistake is that You said theft. Okay. You said someone's stealing or Taking your ideas, but this is what the free market is about. I mean, there's nothing you're actually not taking some of the ideas You're copying or emulating people. I mean when we say we're in favor of the free market We're in favor of competition we're in favor of People emulating what other people do when they see that they're making a profit And trying to make a profit the same way maybe more efficiently maybe the same way um And in response the original guy has to modify what they're doing and try to ever increase the goods and the values and the services They're providing to the consumer So competition It's a good thing and it's part of the free market And that involves learning Observing what other people do and if you see that they're doing something that works and attracts people There's nothing wrong from doing that. There is a famous, um Late 19th century anarchist named Benjamin Tucker Who said listen, you know, if you're going to reveal your ideas to the world For some material gain Same or just because you want to let them out there then you can't be surprised that people Learn from what you say and then incorporate that into what they're doing and if it makes sense They can add on it or remix or build on it or whatever I mean what he said was if you don't want if you don't want people to Copy your ideas keep it to yourself So you have you have a choice you can keep your ideas to yourself Or you can make them public and if you make them public that means you're transmitting them to other people And they can learn from them and the fundamental thing is there's a great video I would recommend anyone sort of confused by this issue By Nina Paley called copying is not theft. It's on the site question copyright.org It's one of their yeah, I've seen that I've seen that and I reject the idea. I I I can't accept that idea I was there David. I I know the feeling Why would you say Well, maybe it's not the correct word, but you know, the the environment so then copyright is not that for copying is not Well, it is the fruit of my labor and you know, I think as the person creating a work spending my time Um, in essence, I control the scarcity because I control and set up the distribution channels So David, I have a question for you. I'd like to ask a question David You said that you uh, we're learning about mary rothbard's theories and stuff and I know that uh, as an economist who was in the austrian tradition, I think he We could be correct in saying that he believed in subjective value theory instead of the labor theory of value So that means basically if you dig a hole and fill it back in you've done a lot of labor But you don't you're not entitled to be paid for it or get a lot of work and I think that applies to things like books I mean if you spend uh, 10 years writing a novel and nobody wants to read it how much is it worth And uh, people who have different theories of where value comes from would say different things about that But what do you believe? Well, if I can take a single um, book or a work of software or a song And sell one copy and that one person is a non Um benevolent agent decides to distribute it to everyone for free I have not been allowed to compete in the market So david am I responsible for paying for some kind of enforcement agency to run around and hassle your potential customers that uh Um to that have gotten your uh, your free song or whatever it is No, but in uh, in this, you know, um Voluntary society the question is how would it work? What what you know, should I have no means of resource by trying to sell something? David I want you to hold the line. Um, hold the line if you would 855-450-3733 we're gonna, uh, stefan can you uh, can you hang with us for a few? Sure 855-450-3733 free talk lives live sunday edition The state owns the land but they don't own the water to be free today You need a boat not just any boat a life yacht It's a stable catamaran as big as a house that purifies its own water generates its own power grows its own food And has a shallow draft to be able to get a car or suv a shore with a life Yacht you could live free of nearly any government intrusion and have a seashore home Anywhere in the world you can be involved for a thousand dollars and a commitment as little as eight months Erickson council.com 855-453 That's the sacral toll free call in line here on the live sunday edition of free talk live with mark and stephanie 855-450-3733 for the Duration of the show. We've been pretty much talking about all things intellectual property based on, uh, you know the sopa mind fruit The sopa and the pipa acts, uh, apparently getting shelved with the uh with our congress critters there in washington dc If you're looking for camping hunting or shooting gear Man venture outpost carries knives ammunition scopes binoculars laser sights tactical flashlights fish finders and boating equipment everything that the Outdoor and through enthusiasts might want to have they've got it and they've got some of the best rates on the internet I've got a good friend of mine who's very into All things outdoors and he checked out man venture outpost.com and he was Independently told me those are some great prices You can get an additional five percent off with coupon code ftl at man venture outpost.com So you can get the already low prices a little lower. It's coupon code ftl man venture outpost.com They remember isn't good standing the better business bureau Um, you'll be very happy when you shop with them and anyone can go there not just men, right? That's right Anyone who wants camping stuff indeed the one anyone who wants to go in a man venture I don't know if I want to go Let's get back. Uh, we we had uh, stephen consula stephen the uh libertarian IP lawyer is is we like that better? That's okay. Okay. Uh, the caller had a good point. Let me bring david right back on. He's he's still here david Hey roots of your labor idea It should work in my view is that the We have a legal system which respects property rights in things that are scarce And you're given that and then you can figure out a way to make props off of it But the idea that property rights come from labor is actually kind of a marxian idea That we have a right to things we labor on And you know in physics there's the notion of work and work if you lean against the wall You push really hard for an hour you might sweat But if you don't move it you haven't performed any work, right? Because you have to move a force through a distance in the physics notion And in the real world if you labor for years on a thong or something else and no one wants to buy it Then you know it's labor, but you're not entitled to a return on it. Um The the way it works in my in my view is this We acquire ownership of scarce resources These are things in the world that can only be used by one person at a time like land or metal objects in the world And you can acquire that by becoming the first person to own it. That is the homesteader I think they kind of suck the first use yes Right, but but you have to understand that laboring on something doesn't actually give you new rights all it does at most is transform Things that you own into a more valuable configuration So if you own something like marble or metal And you labor on it to turn the metal into a sword You know that sword is more valuable to you you've you've created wealth, but you don't have a new property rights So creation by itself Doesn't create property rights. It only transforms already owned things Into more valuable shapes or not even necessarily more valuable. I mean couldn't you labor on something and make it less valuable? Exactly it could be a loss or it could be a wash or whatever But but the point is that you cannot Say it's a principle of free markets that whatever you labor on or create you own and therefore I have created a new idea and therefore I own it that is a central mistake I believe in these people to think that we own ideas because we create them Ideas are what we use to guide our actions. We use them to decide what to do But what we do what we perform as actions is to employ these scarce resources So you don't you own the resources, but you don't own the ideas that guide your action Well, we treat this like a property or an invention and what we really do under current law is protect the embodiment of the idea And what I guess I'm going to put this in NVC speak just to just uh, you know But uh, I feel this need for safety and security, but I'm feeling uh, I'm being aggressed upon And I want to know what to do Okay, if if person a who would normally be a legitimate buyer and who admittedly Decides to defraud me and I see it as fraud. I feel like I'm being aggressed against when they do not Allow me to sell any other copies in the market by giving it all away for free How can I compete in a free market way if Someone has aggressed upon me and without government. I think there needs to be another Better way to handle this Well, I break break down your comments into a couple of things number one You're you're just saying they're aggressing against you, but they're actually not aggressing because they're They're just repeating your ideas for free, right? That's not aggression because they don't actually invade the the borders of your property But then you said how can I compete? That's the real question But that is the question any entrepreneur in the free market faces I mean, let's say you come up with a new model for a grocery store Let's say we're 30 years ago and you have a grocery store chain and you realize Hey, if I have my aisles be a little bit wider Okay, it will be less congestion It will attract customers and I can get more customers from crowbar down the street So you are competing with them And then you implement this new idea which is to have wider aisles Well, what's going to happen? You're going to have higher profits at first if it's a good idea But after a while other people are going to notice and they're going to emulate what you've done And this is exactly why we have societal progress is because we have a gradual ratcheting up of efficient methods of producing things that people want because people see what works And they see what doesn't work and they emulate it and that's competition And that's why if you have an initial high profit, it doesn't last And you have to keep innovating for the benefit of the consumer, but you're not guaranteed a profit It's just because you were first And that's the same thing with intellectual property in my opinion I'd like to jump in here with a quick comment to you know I I really understand what david's saying about the safety and security because I think that's really what it all comes down to Right people want to be secure in their livelihood right and know that they can Make money from their products that they spend so much time and sweat equity creating, right? But you know, there are a lot of ways to make money on things without the need for you know, intellectual property Enforced by the state for instance, you know, you can sell advertising You can get sponsored to produce content and we know that these things work because people already do People are doing them now. The concern is what I hear david saying is I I hear him saying well We know intellectual property works. I've been working under it for a period of time My products are selling that way and I make money with the current intellectual property laws And that is therefore that's good for me But you can look all over the internet free talk live goes by the freemium model So does pork therapy and we get donations from listeners people, you know, like the the the product I don't know if it's donations. We have people sign up as members of our amplifier Program and at amp dot free talk live comm and they support and people and there's advertising Listen to the ads and people hire us for voiceovers And you know, so it's almost like an artist who gets paid to play a concert instead of just getting paid for their cd So, you know, there are lots of creative solutions And they're they're there in the marketplace already if you look for them because people already are Functioning in this model where they're trying to find a way to make money without necessarily utilizing the copyright system David does that make sense? Yeah, it makes sense. I just you know, I see a little differently. I mean in a voluntary society There will still be little cartels or or arbiters or groups to privately attempt the same thing And I guess what my intent is that I to state that I agree With not having a government involved because by nature it is aggressive But in a private means I would see that you know, it would would escalate I would file with a voluntary organization and say that this person I believe to have Willfully attempted to um Depriving of Uh, or aggressive against me. Well, David David. Um, I'm not sure that I'm not sure that you would necessarily file I mean the internet is great at showing who first produced content, you know, uh So David, thanks for the call. We'll discuss a little bit more of this And appreciate the call eight five five four five zero three seven three three. Stefan. Can you hang for one more segment? Sure, great Americans are losing their wealth People are riding in the streets for years. The american people have ignored the assaults on our liberty The book in plain sight that disregarded truth not only reveals the truth and the deceptive tactics that have caused the decline of our liberty But also identifies and explains how we the american people can restart what was once a free america It's time to wake up protect our liberty and return the government back to its proper role It's time to know the truth order in plain sight the disregarded truth today at amazon.com Free talk live eight 55 453. That's a sacral toll free call online eight five five four five zero three seven three three It's mark with you and stephanie live sunday edition of free talk live Have you ever been the victim of an injustice and then decided to do nothing about it because attorneys are just too expensive Jurisdictionary.com is a course for people who don't have attorneys It arms you with the information on how to use the court's rules until you know these rules You're fighting in the dark It works for plaintiffs or defendants and civil or criminal matters and state or federal courts Costs less than an hour with any good attorney and the four cd course is so easy the average eighth grader could learn it in a weekend Visit jurisdictionary.com and download all the free tools They have there for you the free legal flow chart the free weekly tips and tactics newsletters They've got a free legal dictionary watch the free videos then buy the course It's jurisdictionary.com. Remember when you check out to use the pull down menu mention free talk live It's jurisdictionary.com. Let's go back to stephen consola it'll libertarian ip attorney He's intellectual too So stephen um Stephanie has a question regarding music Yeah, um It's not really a question. It's just more of something that I would like to say to spark a discussion I recently saw this documentary stephen called good copy bad copy And what it's about is sampling in the music industry and also a genre of music called mashup Where basically they will take the artist will take small samples from many different songs There could be like 20 to 60 different songs in in one song and they'll mix them all together And they'll make a completely new song but just using very small samples and now you know under current Laws this is illegal, of course, but it's widely done and the artists usually make money off of selling t-shirts and Gigs and they get you know, they get paid to play places and maybe even get some donations I'm not really sure but I just wonder if you could if you could comment on sort of the status of sampling in the music industry Yeah, so um Under current copyright law, can you guys hear me? Okay? Yes There is a difference between a recorded forming and a live Okay So if you do a by-performance of let that one song That's okay, but if you record it try to sell it there. So right away But I agree completely with that. There is a lot of remaking and using other work but of course, this is the best part to build upon what others and We're based on common Lots and it's time Stefan we're having a little bit of trouble hearing you right now. Yeah a little bit of audio trouble. I think it's uh I'll call you right back. Okay. Okay drop that line You know I was making the point that um, shakespeare was based on uh, tomas lot and I you know I've heard this before too. Not that I know Absolutely, you know, there are a lot There are a lot of works out there that um, you know, haven't been copyrighted you get One of the reasons they've got those baby einstein videos that uh play classical music is because it's in the public domain The classical music's in the public domain. Yeah stephan you back Yeah, I'm back. Okay great. Go ahead with what you're saying. We had an iphone issue So so Stephanie's got a good point about remixing and in fact one of the earlier callers It goes to their point. Um, they talk about how you can't profit off your works. You can't control things But on the other hand Copyright law means you're limited in what you can do. I mean, who knows what the creative landscape would look like today If people were free to remix and mash up And do things that they do right now under sort of, uh, the ferretta lawsuit Well, exactly, you know, I think that I think of almost everything that's done that sort of violates copyright laws Except in cases of fraud, of course Most of the stuff Is a form of remixing whether it's music or something else. I mean, I I uh, I'm actually a Amateur botanist. I like plants. I have a lot of house plants and I've been interested in Hybridizing flowers, especially amaryllis flowers, but some of them are patented They have these like pat plant patents And so if I hybridize patented plants am I a criminal because I'm growing flowers I mean, right you're stealing somebody's plant idea. It's the same as remixing And this is the you know the folks that protect intellectual property in their mind and I get it I was over there one point relatively recently But you know those folks that do that they always bemoan what the future may look like Well, let's talk about what the the present looks like as a result of the intellectual property and this monopoly privilege on a particular idea Well, we've been talking about copyright mostly but patent is another terrible field and speaking of this plant patent issue Monsanto, for example is notorious for what they're doing. Yeah, so what will happen is they will get a patent on an A sexually reproduced, you know see the variety or something like that And by the way, there's also gene patents on even human genes that they're getting now So do I have to pay a royalty every time I express that gene? I mean, that's ridiculous Yeah, and sometimes sometimes it's taken from a medical patient who didn't even consent So they don't get this weird gene from a medical patient from a cancer treatment And then they've taken patent something they learned from them They have a patent on basically the the human life that they were treating But in the monsanto case what happens is Some of these monsanto patented seeds will blow through the air onto neighboring farmers fields and they will contaminate their crops and They become part of the strain of the crop that they're growing And then monsanto will send the basically the SWAT teams out To stop them from selling their weed or corn or grain because it contains an element of this patented plant Gene Because it blew through the air onto their fields now. This is That's so sinister and are well in that you can even imagine Yeah, now How did they get the evidence that they're that this gene is in the crops of the other farmers? They they must have to go get a sample of their You know sneak onto the field and get a leaf so they can genotype it or something Oh, maybe they have secret agents at the farmers market and they're buying a piece of corn from the sky and They go they could they could go do a DNA test on and then they just do the patent infringement. It's crazy It's unbelievable It's really just another example of how this protects the big guys, you know the huge mega corporations And the way this came down for me, um, you know what I had to come to confront in my mind because I get the The the argument of utilitarianism when it comes to intellectual property And I think that intellectual property exists because so many people agree it exists But it doesn't exist in the way that we all agree it does I mean because it you know the government the government's a terrible agency to try to To try to come up with this idea. Oh, sure, but you know when I think about ideas like You know the wheel and we've talked about all these things the combustion engine and old songs and things like that If intellectual property is good, right? Just and fair today on things produced today Then it should be good, right fair and just for things produced You know two decades ago four decades ago two centuries ago four centuries We should be paying aug for inventing the wheel and caveman times, right somebody why don't we pay our parents for our genes, right? All these things Yeah, that's it taken to absurd Yeah You know and somebody came up with the go right ahead I was just gonna say somebody came up with the idea of a chair Nobody's paying the guy for the chair idea, but they're they're coming up with all different ways to formulate the chair Let's have four legs. Let's have one leg with a little thing in the bottom a bunch of wheels Um, you know, let's make it go up and down You know all kinds of different things, you know, we'll make this one for dentists this one for barbers They make all kinds of different chairs, but that chair inventing guy. He's not getting anything out of it You know, we were lucky We were born into a family advanced civilization that built upon the the advances the scientific and technical knowledge Of generations before us. This is a good thing I mean we need to stop thinking of it as a bad thing with education And learning increases and people learn from each other This is this is what society is about all about we need to live cooperative cooperatively among each other And we have property rules for the things that we we could fight about But we can all use the same ideas at the same time So we need to spread these ideas and not try to stop them from spreading And you can look on the internet right now and you can look at people in the music industry The you know, the big music industry is on its way out. It's dying and young bands They are figuring out ways to distribute their music to their fans. They are living successful lives I'll grant you that the world of the super rock star the the you know, the the aro smiths They may be, uh, you know, they're not going to be making the money that they make from residuals and that kind of thing But having lived in sarasota florida where these people park in the middle of the street because they don't care about parking tickets And they live they live a lifestyle where they're, you know drunk at two on the golf course and you know Busting out the windows at the the caddy shack because they're s-faced. I don't know that i'm going to miss that Particular aspect of the music industry the cost of producing music and distributing it now is so much lower because of technology And they don't need those big and also and also books and even movies right people can buy a thousand dollar camera They can make a movie now. Yes Let's take the case of jakey rally which i mentioned earlier And let's imagine someone who has a really i mean she was passionate about her. She was a welfare mother real quick She was passionate about her ideas Real quick the point is jakey rally could basically sell her books and then she could She could get money for releasing the next version of the book. She could sell for the movie Yep, that's been done the money being consultant. She could have made lots of money In in a free world stephen plug your website real quick C4 si f dot org c4 si f dot org that's it From filmmaker ai wintermute comes the feature length documentary liberty in our lifetime It chronicles the real-life activists who have moved to new hampshire as part of the free state project And the many ways in which they seek to live free But he needs your help to get this important story off the ground Visit liberty documentary dot com watch the trailer and find out how you can help bring this film to life That's liberty documentary dot com free talk live eight five five four five zero three seven three three Uh, you know, we spent the last two hours talking to stephen consula about he is great I like having him on very impressive. Um, and it's always nice to have him on and and clear up some of these the muddy issues of intellectual property Of for us, but um, you know, we take calls on anything and you can call in at eight five five four five zero three seven three three take control of the airwaves got an interesting story here from Wsb tv dot com Dacob county, georgia A homeowner was held a gunpoint and his family pet was killed in a mix-up involving a dacob county police call Oh my when I rang the garage and saw my dog lying there dead. I'm looking at the blood I I lost it bobby curry said around 9 p.m. Dacob county, uh, dacob officer went to her home in silva court in response to a domestic dispute call with a Possibly armed person the officer said the family's german shepherd lunged at him So he killed the dog the recently rescued animal was chained in the garage when the shooting happened Curry's husband anthony said the officer also pointed the gun at him and told him to put his hands up I said why did you shoot my dog? He said well, I'll blow your brains out. He said hold on a minute You just killed my dog. Why do you want to blow my brains out? My hands are up I said I don't have a gun anthony curry said It's hard to stay calm in the face of losing your pet. Can you imagine? Yeah You know, you just went through all the trouble idea what's going on either rescuing this animal You know your heart and soul has been put into it. You've got him chained in the garage some cop comes in You know the dog does what dogs do dogs I mean traditionally dogs are supposed to be protecting your property. This animal's got some You know behavior issues chained up in the garage and the cop shoots him dead Right in your garage and then put the points the gun at you Well, clearly that officer must have been feeling pretty scared of the dog And I mean I wouldn't blame him but at the same time it seems extremely Rash to shoot a dog that's chained up. Well, we're not probably okay The story gets worse and he threatened the homeowner too Sure Decobb police sent another officer to the scene the supervisor showed up said it was an error Made by an officer who was trying to help someone else Subsequent investigation determined the actual address had was looking for was across the street The first officer faces no disciplinary action. They read the numbers. Well, it happens, right? Mistakes are gonna happen if you You know if you give law enforcement officers the ability to walk into people's homes with impunity Then this is what's going to happen because people are gonna have dogs I don't think anyone gave them that ability. I think they just took it the the courts have Well, yeah, I certainly defend them. There's no disciplinary action here He'll have to go before the shooting review board and face an internal investigation But we've seen these rash of dog shootings. They did everything by the book. Everything's fine. He was endangered, you know The courier said they don't like what happened but can understand it and you know, this is where people come from in this paradigm Now that I know he was dealing what he was dealing with and there's a human error I can understand why it happened she and her husband said that the incident should serve as a lesson to officers to double Check the addresses. They're responding to You think yeah, I mean You know what, you know, if I wouldn't feel so the same way Yeah, I'd be like I'd be so Cursing mad that I wouldn't know what to do if they came in and shot my dog I'd be terrified. I mean, what if they shot your kid? What if they came in and you know, please Tends to be very deferential when it comes to children Usually when children get shot, it's a it's a big mistake Um, you know, they cops tend to try very hard to protect children But a lot of times there's there are a lot of stories of cops shooting dogs like it's almost standard operating procedure Yes, that's true And I just have to wonder though what you know, what's behind that dog One of the first rules of firearm safety is you always know your target and what's behind it And if there's a garage, there could be a person behind it happens. Sure the dog could move it, you know I mean, you never know. It just doesn't seem very safe. Yeah, maybe that's the the rule for safety But you have to understand officer safety comes before everything else that includes the homeowners and everybody else officer safety is paramount Apparently it does And I think that that's that that's how they seem to operate and you know, if you offer officer safety was indeed paramount You'd stop sending them into places like this like they own the place He should have been knocking at the door Yeah That's what should have been happening. What did the article? Maybe I missed it But what was the alleged purpose of the visit to the other house? It was a domestic violence with a possible weapon Okay, but you know, they just a possible weapon, you know, who knows what so You know, they go in guns of blazing with that call That's kind of what they're not really the best, you know I always laugh when people call the cops about um interpersonal disputes because they are always going to escalate the situation You know, I I'm sure there are cops out there that do not escalate the situation I'm sure there's good ones out there But you know in the same way since there if there are good ones there must be bad ones If there are ones that are that they try very hard to use their weapons and in a manner that would be You know just and right there are ones that are itching To shoot some somebody or something and those ones are looking for the opportunity to shoot somebody's dog I mean, there've been video after video after video on the internet There was one where a cop had given to the end of a dead end road went to get some directions from a homeowner and shot Their dog in their yard Yeah, it's unbelievable even very small dogs. Sometimes they'll shoot. Yeah, there was a good an incident with an inside A house with a corgi and they shot another dog that was in a crate and in that instance they shot cats, too I mean, they really have I remember the stories I don't I don't know of I can't remember a cat story off the top of my head But I think about situations where you know when you have hard flooring in florida Uh, it's common to have tile flooring when you know bullets are just flying all over the place You're talking about picking up shrapnel. Yeah things going through drywall just pass I mean, you know bullet drywall is not going to stop any kind of bullets Oh, yeah So bullet, you know and uh, how many times do you see some story where you know cops shoot at man? 24 times hit him 10. I mean this it's it happens all the time you can read these and where are those other bullets going? Yeah, I you know, it could be very dangerous and sending these sending police officers into homes needs to be something Only for the very worst crimes, you know, there's a convicted arsonist in there murderer You know bank robber or something like that. Then we're talking But the vast majority the the um, getting directions. Yeah When they go into the getting directions, they shot the dog in the yard. Yeah, um But they're they go into people's homes every 40 seconds There's a swat rate in this country every 40 seconds Some of them are bound to have the wrong address and some of them are bound to and most of them are drug oriented Yes incidents where people's lives are not in danger Yeah, um where they could you know do all kinds of other things and said instead of sending in You know teams where you don't know what's going on And it you know just creates a myriad of problems and oh, yeah It's not going to get addressed and not not what the way things are going No, because the politicians care what happens with what cops say not with what um citizens say Yeah, I mean the current paradigm especially with the drug war is that you know These people need to be punished for use of drugs and I don't think either one of us mark would say that like, you know We support drug use or we think it's good. It's just that we we know that prohibiting it and using these um These punishing tactics really leads to a lot more problems for all of society Not just for the drug users is for everybody has to pay for it Everybody is subjected to the risk of this violence from these swat raids gone wrong You know and I don't want that you can look at uh, portugal and amsterdam as examples of what a uh A decriminalized drug world might look like and crime diminishes The the um use by young people diminishes First time use raises meaning that uh people you know do it at later ages Because when you take away the forbidden fruit aspect not as many people are interested people are able to go and get treatment And life just looks a lot better. There's significantly less money going into uh, you know government programs trying to enforce these laws When you look at the at this like a it's a problem and it's a problem if the person who has that problem decides It's a problem Then you'll figure out ways to treat it and fix it as opposed to Situations where you want to force other people to act the way you want them to act Yeah, exactly and I mean I I suppose you could do that right didn't newt gingrich say that uh He thinks drug dealers should get the death penalty and there's a quote out there at what cost How much are you willing to pay? How many people are you willing to kill? How much money are you willing to spend how much until it comes to your your family? Yeah, I'm one of somebody in your family Would they be better off with a 10 year prison sentence because they possessed a plant? eight five five four five zero three seven three three free talk live As a smoker you know traditional cigarettes are unhealthy and the taxes feed the very beast stealing your freedom to smoke That's why the vapor station offers an assortment of electronic cigarette kits Each rechargeable refillable kit is an effective affordable alternative to smoking no combustion No tar no foul lingering odors and no smoke secondhand or otherwise Just inhale pure enjoyment and exhale vapor take a puff just about anywhere without getting hassled Get your e-cigarette kit now at vaporstation.com free talk live 855 453 That's a sake old toll-free call in line here on the live sunday edition of free talk live with mark and stephanie eight five five four five zero three seven three The state owns the land, but they don't own the water to be free today You need a boat not just any boat a life yacht It's a stable catamaran as big as a house That purifies its own water generates its own power grows its own food and has a shallow draft to be able to get a four-wheel drive car or suv a shore With a life yacht you could live free of nearly any government intrusion and have a seashore home anywhere in the world You can be involved for a thousand dollars in the commitment of as little as eight months. It's ericsoncouncil.com That's ericsoncouncil.com And a lot of people ask me how to spell it If you just you know use one of the search engines and search ericson council You'll be able to uh to find it that way too, but um, you know, I can try to spell it for you on the air It just doesn't go that well so Let's go to the phones and to the fun. We've got kelvin and colorado calling in kelvin. You're on free talk live What's on your mind? Hey, good evening mark, uh, stephanie and mandrick Hi kelvin if you must be watching the cam at cam dot free talk live.com. Oh, yeah, it's always amusing uh, so I want to talk a little bit about the uh, the uh, liberty forum and so uh Many people are coming to the liberty forum not only to share in the camaraderie and They're also there to evaluate the area to see if they would you know consider moving there for a lot of people are sure yeah, and i've uh you know project outreach people would have some incentive to offer some sort of uh, like Freedom tours or something before and after liberty forum uh And I I contacted them and they weren't you know, they they responded very politely and gave me some other ideas but said they weren't uh interested in doing that because People generally didn't have much time before and after and the weather is unpredictable and you know Anyway, they weren't too interested in it and I was thinking that you know That might be a good idea for somebody that wanted to make some money or something set up some tours with some experience that liberty type people that can help you know Show the things that would be of interest to movers. You know kelvin. Um, I think Here's a tip. I think if you contacted uh, a realtor like for instance the porcupine realtor mark warden He would probably give you a tour if you were thinking about buying some real estate Is that porcupine realtor.com? Correct. Yeah Yeah, and that was one of the suggestions with the free state project. Uh, right on the great minds think a lot Yeah, but I didn't want to you know possibly take advantage of some, you know, somebody Real estate personally when I'm just sort of tentatively looking, you know, I have them You know like taking me around and spend a bunch of their time. I'd be willing to pay, you know for for The service that I You know, what I would think the best thing to do would be is to talk to different people at the liberty forum And I'll bet you that there there's certainly people that do all kinds of different work and you know, some of its You know pick up work things like that and a bunch of there are some people that would make good choices Pick up work. What's that pick up? It just means, you know, do odd jobs. Oh, yeah And you know, I mean if there anything like me, I love to talk about the different places that might be good Um, you know for folks to move and I attempt to be as uh, people are gonna have agendas though They want you to move to their area But talk to a lot of different people and ask them that question Right and you just find you've got to figure out what's important to you. Um, some people it's living Free and off the grid other people, you know, they want to grow their own food and things like that Other people want to be near metros and you know, just different folks People want to move near the political type activism others want to move more towards the civilly disobedient places, I guess I've got sort of, you know, different areas that are kind of more known for either one Yeah, I've got to tell you if you're going to be big into the political action Um, it's hard to make it from where we live over in the southwest corner of new hampshire to conquered For all every single bill that might have some liberty, you know, aspect to it It's it's pretty tough. So you'd probably want to live somewhere near conquered within a you know, half an hour 20 minutes Drive to conquered so that you'd be able to to get there and be comfortable with the situation I go maybe once or twice a year Which shows how rarely I get up there Yeah, I'm in the high tech industry. So I imagine I'd end up somewhere in your national Manchester somewhere in there that pretty much the high tech area they say that there's a tech corridor there I would suspect that, um, you know, I would think that you would have some people commute to boston too So living in nashua would be the closest place But I think there are lots of tech jobs in Manchester and also by the way if anyone is listening to this besides kelvin And is looking for a job I know I think I've given kelvin this specific suggestion before but there is a group on facebook Called the fsp job alert and I think it might even be linked on the freestate project website or forums or something And that job that group has job postings multiple times a day It's very active and it's got a lot of different jobs every kind of job you could possibly imagine So it might be a good idea to follow that group at, uh, fsp job alert Yeah, excellent, uh, I I looked into the thing of working in, uh, boston and living in nashua and it So my research it turns out that they want to attach you. Oh, yes. Yes I wouldn't recommend it, but some people use that as a stepping stone Well, you've got to and you've got to look at what works for you, um, you know If they're gonna, you know, put in the state income tax on you and working in boston And I don't know what the state income tax in massachusetts is but say it's three percent I used to live there and it's changed since I left. I think it's probably if you can get 10 paid 10 Percent more and get taxed three percent more than it makes sense to do it if that's what well But there's also sales tax and you know property taxes and well, you wouldn't live necessarily live there You would live you but you might go shopping near your workplace for sure Yeah, you probably do some shopping for things But usually when you're going shopping to the workplace, you're probably getting lunch, which means you're paying Sales tax on the food in in new hamster You'd pay nine percent which is actually more than you'd probably pay in most states in in florida You would pay less than that and prepared for prepared food. So, you know These these things are all toss-ups. You got to do what's right for you when you grow your own food Work on the internet and one thing I've got to say though kelvin and rv People do it You know, don't buy I don't I think that the best advice I can make is don't buy a house right away I would agree with that. I rented a apartment for the first year I was in new hampshire and then I bought a house later Yeah, and I think that you got to know where you want to be And that's you know, that that's the most important aspect of you know, a lot of people You know, they question which city they want to be in you need to be kind of fluid find which one's going to work for you Yeah, I'd really like to try out the the seacoast area I see that new hampshire has been allowed to have a tiny little piece of the seacoast eight miles of coastline in new hampshire And that's probably the premium Real estate area too it is Certainly, but you know, there's a very deep water port in port smith. So that that eight miles is a valuable eight miles Excellent. Okay. Well, thanks a lot And I'll talk to you later. Thanks Calvin say hi to us at liberty forum I will if you can count on it sounds good That's right. We will be at the liberty forum and you can be too by going to freestate project.org slash liberty forum. It's coming up In a month. Yeah in the next month And it's going to be a lot of fun. Yes, you know, we've talked about all the speakers that are going to be there and You know, the speakers are intended to attract people and everything but I think that once somebody's been there That they're really attracted by the atmosphere after that. I mean, you know, absolutely Obviously the speakers are great and you know, it's fun to have them But It's as much an opportunity to show the the libertarian luminaries new hampshire as it is to come hear them speak Yeah, right. So, uh, yeah, check it out. Uh, it's freestate project.org slash liberty forum free talk live Bigheadpress.com is your home for illustrated science fiction and adventure escape from terra volume two Continues the bold adventures of intrepid space pioneers as they find wealth freedom and a giant Elvis hit an interplanetary space Feminist crumb is where swashbuckle meets steampunk in this offbeat space pirate saga written by el neil smith and illustrated by scott beezer Both books are 1495 each and available now at bigheadpress.com Free talk live 855 453. That's the seakal toll free call in line 855 450 3733 You can call in talk about whatever you want to talk about. That's one of the things we do here on free talk live Folks call in hijack the airwaves If you're like me and you don't have time to carve out You know a periods of time in your day to sit down with a book and read it You know, I mean, I want all the information that's in books and I want to be able to enjoy Novels new novels that come out. There's certainly my favorite authors out there But I just don't have the time to sit down with a book anymore at least not nearly as much as I used to audible.com is a leading provider of premium digital spoken audio information entertainment they've got every category of books over there and You know all the stuff that you want to to listen to looking right now at the front page of their website and seeing You know, William William Gibson's new book distrust that particular flavor all the necessary force by brad taylor american dervish a novel by iad actar And you know like all the other all the other bestsellers are going on. It looks like read Regis philman's got a new book out. Isn't that nice you can Go and get any of these books completely free at audible podcast.com slash ftl They've got more than a hundred thousand titles over there Available to you audible podcast.com slash ftl. Go get it. Go get it for free. It's fast. It's easy It's affordable. I can do it. So it must be easy audible podcast.com slash ftl Stephanie you've got a story from uh of cops abusing their power over in great britain. Is that right? I do. Yes. Um, this is pretty Pretty striking um from the guardian dot co dot uk The headline is undercover police had children with activists and it's by rob evans and paul lewis Excuse me. So, uh, two This is ridiculous two undercover police officers secretly fathered children with political campaigners They had been sent to spy on and later disappeared completely from the lives of their offspring. Did they deep undercover? I'm very deep. I apparently Yeah, and and this is not funny because of how it affects the kids sure sure it is. I mean so horrible Um, in both cases that says the article to some extent these girls decided not to marry the guys that they were sleeping with I mean, you know, let us be Well, I don't see how marriage has anything to do with it. A father could still leave if they were married I mean it's a good. It's it's a system that for a child rearing that's worked for you know thousands of years Marriage no, yeah, that's what it's for Right, but marriage hasn't been around for thousands of years has it has state not state marriage Well, not state marriage, but I mean look look the marriage came along and then the state came along after it sure Okay, well, I mean, I'm sure it was a religious institution before that right sure I mean those were the you know to some extent but people were having kids before any kind of you know Even religious marriage existed probably had commitments to each other in that way too Yeah, maybe I mean a child is a commitment as far as I'm concerned you know, and I I would hesitate to Kind of blame the women for you know having children with these men Well, I mean it's not all them, right? I mean No, it takes two people to create a baby and the woman is you know, unfortunately is responsible for 100 of the growing the baby part, right and after the Dad leaves because he's an undercover cop He sticks her with the responsibility of raising the child as well Stucker the the You know, this is it's unfair for them to you know, that's very unprofessional for them to have done such a thing But you know, what I'm the only point I'm trying to make here is is that You know these ladies have responsibility for their actions to everybody's got responsibilities for their actions And they chose to have sex with somebody do but this was fraud protection I mean this was fraud mark. It is fraud. They are representing themselves as activists or whatever I don't know what kind of activists they were. I guess we'll find out if we read on in the article, but So in both cases the children have grown up not knowing their biological fathers who they have not seen whom they have not seen in decades Were police officers who had adopted fake identities to infiltrate activist group groups Both men have concealed their true identities from the children's mothers for many years One of the spies was bob Lambert who has already admitted that he tricked a second woman into having a long-term relationship with him As part of an intricate attempt to bolster his credibility as a committed campaigner The second police spy followed the progress of his child and the child's mother by reading confidential police reports Which tracked the mother's political activities in life So not only have they fathered children, but now they're also spy, you know, disappearing from the children's lives But spying on them through confidential police reports. I mean, this is just whole different levels of wrong Send a check if you want to keep an eye on It's just weird. Yeah, I mean it's amazing and I know um You know, I know in the uk there are a lot of these sort of laws that sort of I've heard I don't know how true this is maybe one of our listeners If anyone's listening in the uk knows more about this than us can uh can fill us in but from what I understand There are sort of tax penalties on married couples in the uk And there is also a lot of government support i.e welfare for single mothers And so of course probably what the cops are saying to themselves is that they're taking care of, you know, what do I need to do? Yeah, I mean, I think that that kind of political structure does incentivize single motherhood Which may not be the best for a child growing up right? I think not for a kid to have two parents is probably better than one Right. I I tend to think so. I mean I or more. I don't know I I'm of the opinion that the optimum, uh, you know sex and relationship of parents is too married Opposite sex parents. However, I don't think opposite sex. I think I think that that's optimum I think that you know that likely what that's going to do is produce really mark You think that every straight couple is better parents than every gay couple. I said that was optimum based on their sex Like that's that's the uh, if you it's not it doesn't hang on that issue It's just that if you get to pick if you're going to design the perfect family to raise a kid in this society I think that you would probably pick a male and a female that are married together and committed and that kind of thing However, if what if that male or that female are an alcoholic, I'll go ahead and trade out, um, that, uh, you know that optimum situation to, uh, You know of same-sex or whatever. I just think that there's no such thing as I mean It sounds like you're disparaging same-sex couples as not good parents. Why how does it sound that way? Because you said straight parents are optimum and oh well if they're alcoholics or something then I guess I'll take the gay parents There's nothing in the world is optimum, right? Like you don't get optimum Like everybody's got their problems and their their their shortcomings. Um, and I think I think that in today's Culture that you'll raise a more well-rounded individual if they're raised in a Heterosexual couple than you will at a homosexual couple They're not prepared to make a statement like that. I heard and treated like they are weird. Oh, so it's weird to have gay parents It's weird to be gay. You don't think it is. No If there's nothing weird represent gay fewer than one fewer than 10 of the population then I would call that weird It's a deviation from the norm Well, how I mean how little of a person how much of a minority does something have to be to be considered? Is it weird to be black? I You know, I mean, I think in some communities it's certainly in New Hampshire. It is weird to be black I mean, I'm not saying that's something that somebody has no control over that Absolutely, they have no control over being gay either who claim that they had any control over it I'm not claiming it's bad either Well, I mean when you say something is weird and that their kid is going to turn out weird if they have gay parents Black person who has to deal with you know, white folks that don't get to deal with black folks very often what it's like They're constantly asking them. Oh, what do black people think? How the hell should I know what black people think honky? I'm just one black person You know, I mean, it's a silly so they yes, they absolutely get treated like they're weird sounds like a judgment of them I mean it just I don't usual Okay, but you know, I don't think there's any reason to say that I'd like parents are not the optimum I mean, they're actually I've seen studies recently that say Gay parents are better than straight parents because they often have to adopt children and they want them more And they care for them more lovingly. I don't know Straight parents can have kids accidentally and I don't know what the percentage of them that have at kids accidentally But I think the percent of all pregnancies are unintended Right and so you're you're making it seem like I'm saying that every straight couple is better than every gay couple And I'm not saying that okay I'm saying the optimum people the optimum situation means that these people are truly optimum and to be truly optimum I say they need to be heterosexual. That's my opinion. I think the optimum includes gay and straight I don't think yeah You know, I disagree mark 8 5 5 4 5 0 3 7 3 3 free talk live You know that cigarettes will kill you you've been thinking about giving the e-cigarette a try There is a healthier option 22 000 times healthier I'll listen to this offer from vapor smiths.com a pack a day smoker will save 120 a month So you already start being richer feeling healthier and smelling better. What more could you want? How about a free starter kit? Just purchase 40 cardamizers with coupon code ftl free shipping on orders of 60 or more 8 5 5 2 get vapor or go to vapor smiths.com Free talk live 8 55 453. That's the sacle toll free call in line a live sunday edition of free talk live 8 5 5 4 5 0 3 7 3 3 You might be able to squeeze your call in here if you give us a call in the last few last segment here of the show Last few minutes. It's mark and stephanie Check out amp dot free talk live dot com. It's a great way to Support the show and there's a few perks for amplifiers. You can Get a commercial free podcast. There's a forum on the the bbs at bbs dot free talk live dot com And we ask three bucks a month and we'll spread the you can that we'll use that money to spread the word of free Talk live. It doesn't go for a paychecks or anything like that. It's amp dot free talk live dot com That's Stephanie. We were talking about a situation here where I guess police Were in great britain were having sex undercover police were forming relationships and fathering children with the activists that they were spying on And I have yet to read what kind of activists they were but I you know, I wonder if something like this could happen here You know the fed and who's their children. It has there's been lots of situations where police have gotten very deep And with with the people that they're watching and it just makes you makes you wonder But real quick. Let's go to Darian and Rochester Darian you're on free talk live How are you guys all as well? Hi Darian I want to talk about the medical definition of death Okay, did you know the medical definition of death? I think I do okay. I'm having a debate with a friend of mine who is involved in an organization called free aid Free aid. Okay. Yes. I volunteer for free aid. It's fr 33 aid dot com if people want to learn more Is that an e on the end of that or not? No, a aid. Okay. Got it. Go ahead Darian It's a it's a great organization. Um, especially with what happened. It was the occupied new hamster Free aid was down there talking about the ways that private markets get handled healthcare services And they were they were terminated But a friend of mine wants to know what is the medical definition of death? What is the medical definition of death? Well, um, I think I'm I think this will be my amateur answer to this question because you're the medicine person here on the show You're in pre-med or something like that. I'm in medical school, but I'm not a doctor yet. Um, so Wow, that's a really good question because there there can be situations where people's like hearts can stop beating on their own But if they can be kept on life support, you know, they could be kept alive. So are they dead? I don't know. I mean, I guess they're alive with assistance Uh, technology is getting better to the point where we can kind of keep people living longer and longer in more dire situations There's also brain death so called But doesn't death only occur if it's permanent? I mean if it's not permanent, they're not dead, right? Well, there have been some cases where people will meet the medical will be pronounced dead Uh-huh, and then we'll be resuscitated and they'll be alive again But then the doctors were just wrong and it's not like doctors aren't wrong. They're practicing I suppose. Yeah, uh-huh um So I would say it's it's lack of Wow, this is really tough. You know Darian I think I might have to do some more research on this to give you an accurate answer Do you do you have any ideas on your own or is this kind of a settling about? Okay, I I'm kind of an arrogant asshole or I believe that I'm right And I believe the only way to kill somebody Is deprive them of oxygen into the brain You have situations like somebody's done. They have an artificial heart And the the whole purpose of that artificial heart is to circulate blood in their body The whole point of making blood move is to bring oxygen to the brain, right? So you mentioned earlier brain death. I think when when the brain does not respond to an EKG They are dead Well, actually, um, as I understand it there can be like electrical activity in the brain After someone is technically dead and they're never, you know, they're never going to come back to life. But Um, but yeah, I mean that that is ultimately the way that everybody dies I guess is the lack of oxygen to the brain, right? Well, can a brain be dead without with a heart still be beating? I mean, is that possible? Well, there are some cases where like for instance, terry schiva was this very famous case in the media where she was in a I think a car accident state. Yes, she was in a vegetative state and what that means is that the um, the sort of Like lower parts of her brain like that control breathing and heart rate and those kind of things were functioning So like her brainstem was working But all of her cortex or her higher functions that kind of Define humanity like the ability to think and speak and all that kind of things those were Were that part of her brain was like liquid mush So, um, she had the ability to breathe, but she had no higher cortical function So was she dead was she brain dead? That was the question that was being debated. Sure Darian So good question and I'm actually interested. I love all the things you're saying And Stephanie, I went back and forth I'm wondering if I can have somebody else have online. I know that might violate Pass it over The person I'm debating with can he jump online? Yeah, that's fine. Absolutely Okay, this is entertaining Hello, okay. Hey, this is rough. Hello. All right So what I was saying to Darian was that cause of death Medically speaking is always about what caused the heart to fail All right, so, you know, it may be yeah This guy died because somebody put 30 rounds right through his chest and that destroyed his heart It may be that hey, this guy fell off the building and crushed his heart, you know any number of things But it's always there's it always comes down to the heart has failed Yeah, that's what the cause of death ultimately is Uh-huh the cause so it's death Is the is the argument here death is in the brain or death is in the heart. Is that the question? No, that's well. No, that's see that's that's the thing Darian's misunderstanding. That's that's what he's trying to make it into And I was talking from from the aspect of when you're talking cause of death say um You're you're filling out a report about a homicide or you're talking about a technique to kill an enemy That always comes down to heart failure Yeah, so, I mean what Darian said was that uh, I think what I understood was that he said that It's about lack of oxygen to the brain death is about lack of oxygen to the brain And if your heart is not beating you will not get blood circulating or get oxygen to the brain And so those things are kind of connected, right? So could you both be right in a sense explain to them that? For example, what they teach now in cpr is is for adults. They've gotten rid of rescue breathing They teach only chest compression. Correct Is that so right? Yeah free aid has actually tried to do a lot of educational outreach about cpr and how Pretty much anyone can help in an emergency if they know somebody is in cardiac arrest They can uh, there are defibrillators in a lot of places public places They can also try to do cpr and now for adults as ruff just said They are not recommending rescue breathing just chest compressions because you know in a lot of situations You don't want to put your mouth on someone's mouth They might be covered in blood or vomit or something like that, but you can still help them by doing chest compressions So they don't even That we were always taught 15 and 2 Yes, that was how it was guys. Thanks for the call appreciate the call here on free talk live I don't know if we answered their question It sounds like a fun one to debate. I mean it really does Hell, you know, you can appreciate them calling debates are worth what debates are worth So we were talking in the last segment about sort of the value of Relationships and in You know the rearing of children and I want to make clear what I'm trying to say Go ahead clarify your Because all I'm talking about here is sort of a continuum Of good and bad right like we would we would agree that Um, there's no such thing as the perfect set of parents Nor would there be the perfectly evil set of parents It's all a continuum on that line and that everybody tries to do the best with the circumstances they have It depends on your own values too Right Yes, if you're judging the perfect set of parents Then they encompass all of your values, right or they embody all of your values But people have different values and not all of those values are universal I think that the perfect set of parents to some extent provide their kids with a A view on the world that allows them to assess the world as opposed to Providing them with a view on the world, right? So they give them the ability to make their own decisions as opposed to telling them This is how things are. Oh, I disagree with that. Some a lot of parents tell their children This is how I'm telling you what I as my value statement Okay, that parents a good set of parents would provide the kid with a with a System for judging what is good and bad not, um, you know, just telling them them that Sounds like something gay people can do just as well as straight people agreed and I would say that Um That you know, when I'm when I say that the optimum set of parents would be heterosexual in it's only saying that Yes, heterosexual parents can go from, you know, very bad to optimum and No, none of them ever reaches parents could never reach optimum I I have to say that um that they're going to totally disagree in a situation where You're gonna raise kids in a situation where people want to talk to them All the time about gay parents. What will tell us about these gay issues? That's never that's never gonna go away unless people come out of the closet and yes But I'm not your guinea pig and I don't need to be raised by gay people so that you Can see a better world in the future Um, and I don't want to put a kid through it if they don't want to be through it I think it we can all